>If you want to mope go to high school, if you want to make

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Tony and Vision are well meaning, but they are totalitarian sociopaths. Ultimately, they both wanted to lock Wanda in a gilded cage like a cursed princess in her high tower telling her and themselves it was for her own good. They treat her like a girl rather than a woman, and because of what happened in Lagos there is a part of her that feels that they may be right, that she isn't ready for the responsibilities she took up along side Captain America. Hawkeye comes into the story as a counterpoint to this, treating her like the accountable woman she needs to be and helping her to reject Tony's offer of mewed luxury and step up to the fight, inspiring her to gain an independent understanding of herself and her beliefs.

In the end we see what Tony's gilded cage really was, one step from a straight jacket and a cell in the Raft. With Steve, she'll never live comfortable but she'll be her own woman.

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Bump because I like this costume too

>>82646436
>>82646454
>"Reading into it too much": Not just for Snyderfags anymore!

>If you want to mope go to high school, if you want to make amends, get up off your ass

How old are her and her brother supposed to be? They seemed like adults in age of ultron.

>>82647272
Yeah, but she comes from Povertyia. So she clearly never got a high school education

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>>82647040
I was digging all the cleav

>>82647186
This is all clearly woven into the subtext of the movies narrative anon. It's thematic core was the conflict between individualistic and collectivist ideology, the journey of understanding oneself independently of social subjection or understanding oneself in terms of how other perceive you. Wanda's dialog with Vision when she puts him down reflects this clearly.

>If you do this, they'll never stop fearing you
>I can't control their fear. I can only control my own

It was a clear rejection of Visions "collective good" conformist beliefs in favor of the beliefs Steve expressed in his letter to Tony about faith in people as individuals who should be free to follow what they believe and do what they think is right.

>>82647272
They are. Surely you don't think he was suggesting she literally go to high school. He was simply making the point that her self doubt and insecurity were only befitting of a teenager in an attempt to snap her out of it.

>>82646436
I also liked Black Widow's role in CW. She gave interesting perspective on both sides of the argument with a colder mi.d than both Cap and Tony.

>>82647682
>*colder mind

>>82647682
I did too. Natasha isn't an idealist like the others. Out of all of them she's the most willing to compromise and only really wanted to put herself in a position where she had some level of influence and inside access to the political side of the Accords so she could manipulate the direction it was all unfolding in her favor. That's been her key trait in all the movies she's been in, her capacity to adapt to any given situation emotionally and morally to reach a strategically advantageous position in whatever conflict it is she's in.

>>82647651
That is the type of mistake that arises when everyone is always making jokes. That seriously confused me. I feel like he could have been more sarcastic.

>>82647422

This is when she became my Marvel waifu.

Those god damn milky white motherly looking pair of breasts just trying to bust out of that outfit

>>82648017
What did you think he was trying to get across to her in that scene?

I feel so sorry for Scarlet Witch because she will soon kill Scott Lang and also depower 99% of all mutants except conveniently any major villains or protagonists.

>>82646436
I'm more liking how they're making Hawkeye some sort of father figure for not just Wanda, but the Avengers in general.

>>82648294
I feel they're going a completely different direction with MCU Wanda

>>82649623
Can't be sure. Civil War dealt a lot with her being an uncontrollable powerhouse.

>>82647983
Except she fucked up here. She's on the run now.

The government should have just shot her rather than going with Tony's "take them all alive" plan and then sticking her on the Raft. I never thought I'd say this, but Marvel USA is too merciful.

>>82649858
Nobody would want to shoot someone as cute as Wanda

>>82646436
>People genuinely like Penance's arc when it's done on a character with boobs
What the fuck is wrong with this board?

>>82649768
Thanos has to kill Vision so she can go Super Saiyan 2.

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>>82647651
>It was a clear rejection of Visions "collective good" conformist beliefs in favor of the beliefs Steve expressed in his letter to Tony about faith in people as individuals who should be free to follow what they believe and do what they think is right.

The problem with this line of thinking is that individuals aren't always going to have beliefs conducive to a safer world. Not even a year ago, Wanda was actively trying to get the Avengers to fuck up and destroy lives, and succeeded in more ways than one. Wanda got off fucking easy simply because she was only a willing catalyst.

Beliefs change, and not always for the better (something even Steve points out himself.) Say, for instance, Wanda may be on their side now, she may very well adapt a Darwin-esque outlook on humanity after years of the same mistreatment. Who's powerful enough to stop her? Cap's operating on faith alone, and while he chooses the people he believes in wisely most of the time, he's can also be somewhat over-idealistic at times, and he's not infallible in his decision making in who to put faith in. For example, if he had trusted in Stark's ability to handle the truth about his parent's death, Stark wouldn't have had to take it in all at one moment with the man responsible RIGHT THERE NEXT TO HIM and let it out in a fit of uncontrollable rage. Stark may have not been in his right mind, but that selective conviction in his beliefs in the individuals closest to him led to Bucky almost getting killed by an understandably angry Iron Man.

>>82650130
Wanda only had a brief moment of guilt before being able to grow from it and learn to how to have emotional responsibility

>>82647328
>>82647651
>>82648017
Cap calls her a kid too though, I legitimately do not know what age she's supposed to be. I can imagine the kind of reply I will get about cap, but it's just too ambiguous to me. It's plausible both Hawkeye and Captain America were speaking metaphorically, but it didn't feel like it to me.

>>82650130
Wanda didn't sink anywhere near that low. Not even close to halfway.

>>82650164
The only alternative is taking individual autonomy away from those that are perceived as a threat to the collective good, which is inherently an act of humanity overreaching from where our authority as people extends over one another. It's not even a slippery slope, it's a straight leap into God complex territory and claiming power over the lives of others.

Your entire scenario hinges on a paranoid fear of a potential action of an individual and your lack of control over whether or not she has the choice in her life to make this potential action real. It's this fear that leads to locking Wanda in a straight jacket and keeping her in a cell.

With Steve and Clint as her friends and mentors, she will have the best chance of growing into a well developed woman, as they will guide her when she needs it, but always allow her a choice and independence of thought and action. They understand her as a person, not a potential threat to be tempered and controlled.

>>82650510
You can still tell that's basically who she was in CW.

>>82650445
She was the young rookie on their team that they were all showing the ropes. She's like a little sister to Steve.

>>82650543
Penance in Civil War was a running gag

>>82650852
Squirrel Girl is the only one I'm familiar with, but they did slam him pretty good.

Bump for discussion.

>>82646436
LOL, she did the opposite of make amends when all was said an done. Cap was so sure he had the situation pegged accurately he convinced Wanda to join up with him on the illegal side when she was already under suspicion, and it turned out, that was the villain's plan anyway, and she helped no one by leaving.

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>>82650193
>emotional responsibility
>breaking out so you can take another shot at Stark for "locking you in your room".

I wish Wanda had bigger billing so she could have discussed her side more.

I also wish Pietro was alive...

Is Cap vs Iron Man the Marvel equivalent of Justice League vs Cadmus?

>>82651722
the villian's plan, the only plan of his that mattered to any sort of outcome, was that the Video would utterly break relations between the avengers.

the only "hinging" peice of the plan was Tony's reaction, Tony, reacted as planned and Zemo won.

Tony's too much of an egotist and idealist to ever admit what he attempted to do to buck was monstrous and an act of supreme Hipocracy.

he willingly, actively, and for an extended time, tried to murder someone who was forced to kill his parents, the anger of it wore off and he accepted the actuality of it, this makes him a monster, and worse, it makes his entire case moot, the only people who need "oversight" is Tony.

>>82651974
>the villian's plan, the only plan of his that mattered to any sort of outcome, was that the Video would utterly break relations between the avengers.
Nah, making Cap defend Bucky was integral to the plan too, at least once the HYDRA guy wouldn't talk. That's why the prosthetics were important to get the law after Bucky. If he just leaked the video online when Bucky wasn't being actively hunted, it would be easy for the rest of the avengers to keep Tony in check, but he was playing Steve too.

>>82650130
>thinking the problem is "I feel guilty and want to make amends" but not "take a goofy motherfucker named Speedball who bounces all over the place and sticking him in 'Ow The Edge: The Suit'"

>>82649858
Do you mean too good?

>>82652089
well yes, the peices had to be in place, however, my point stands, the real plan was simply to have them in that room and have them see the video.

it worked because Tony couldn't see beyond himself, he doesn't care about the suffering of others, just his own guilt and his own suffering, its his most glaring, obvious flaw.

>>82652365
Who else was suffering. Tony thought buck was a murderer he didn't know buck was mind control

>>82652444
Yes he did. He didn't care. He said so himself.

>>82652444
he literally knew everything about Bucky, he knew exactly what happened to Bucky, because it was obvious Cap told him in the years since Winter Soldier.

he even admits he doesn't care, he wants to kill him anyways.

also everyone in this movie was suffering, Bucky most of all, Bucky has to live with the guilt of a life-time of killing without any self control, and no one but Cap will ever give one shit.

>>82651794
She broke out so she could participate in the team effort to stop Zemo.

>>82646454

I find this particular argument ridiculous because you're assuming that it's better to put her at EXTREMELY high risk given the political
climate vs just keeping her at home for a few weeks until Steve (if he would have actually tried to work shit out) and Tony managed to get
her some actual protection on actual irrefutable documentation?

This argument would work if it was only the fear of normal people that was any danger, given the way the government is in the MCU what makes
you think that they wouldn't make up any
excuse to take her in and then another excuse to keep her in the Raft?

Tony already brought up the Visa thing. It'd be so easy for any bunch of officials to take her on on that pretense and then start putting her on trial for other shit.

Or what if she refused to go with them? It would turn into a fight, which would make her a criminal (self defense or no) and then where the fuck would she be?

Of course there's always the chance that nothing would happen at all, but is that likely? There's always some sort of conflict, always
some sort of scenario around them and she can hardly remain still if she sees it happening.

It's not an ideal situation but keeping her at home at the avengers tower was at least a guarantee that nobody could touch her there for the most part, getting angry about symbolic issues when it was never about that is ridiculous.

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>>82646436
>Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch go hiking in the mountains and encounter the Punisher

>>82652791
it didn't matter, Steve made it obvious he'd rather be a criminal than compromise, because the accords presented to easy a slippery slope where too easy to manipulate or fuck with.

Tony himself is heavily involved and he was easily convinced to try and murder a brainwashed war hero.

Ross himself is also about the least unbaised man in existence, even when he was complimenting the hero's, the hate for them was on every word.

he put them in cells, had them beaten, and had Scarlet Witch drugged and jacketed, presumably for the rest of her entire life if steve didn't save her.

>>82652791
>Let's sign it so we can see what's in it

>>82652966

Which is why, you NEGOTIATE. You think every treaty is automatically taken as presented?

Do you really think that if it meant having CAPTAIN FUCKING AMERICA sign the the thing they wouldn't have agreed to go over and discuss the terms and at least ATTEMPT to get them to a point where he would go for it?

If they weren't willing to compromise then you'd actually have an argument but Steve NEVER tried a single time to actually compromise or try to make things work.

You can't complain if people vote in someone you don't like if you don't go out and actually fucking vote. If Steve had tried to get the terms and conditions he would actually be ok with and failed then he'd have been 100% justified.

But he didn't did he?

And Tony's fight with Bucky at the end is 100% understandable no matter how much you try to spin it as a sign that he's evil due to your ridiculous Cap bias.

He's been put through the wringer for ages, he's mentally unstable and hasn't been treated for it, and he just found out that not only were his parents killed by the dude that caused so much shit for him, his friend has been fucking lying about it for years.

Steve was right to stop Tony from killing him but you're fucking retarded if you think his rage at that moment was an example of him being "easily convinced into murder."

Also the shit with the raft? That's what Tony wanted to PREVENT by having people sign. If you sign you at least have a shot of staying out. You realize that even if every single person didn't sign, the instant they did anything they'd ALL be first in line for the raft right?

The raft would fucking exist and be used regardless of whether or not Ross had the avengers, especially given that he'd probably try to make a different team of supers anyway and hunt down everyone else.

>>82653264
it doesn't matter, Cap "voted" by not signing, it was never a vote, the hero's never had an option, Tony outright told them "this IS the middle ground"

everything about this movie implies that all the nations want the Avengers under their control.

also nothing really justifies tempted murder, he tried to kill bucky for a good 15 minutes and eveyr minute more he tried showed he knew what he was doing.

he could never call himself a hero again, he's an idealistic monster.

>>82653264
Guise sign up for the boat, or else well throw you in the boat.

>>82653264
having a really sad time doesn't mean dogshit, Tony tried to stand on "Morals" and when the TIME CAME and he was TESTED, he was found WANTING.

he broke, he broke his own morals for the chance at murdering the murder weapon, who was nothing more than a tortured war veteran who spent the last 50 years brainfucked.

Tony trying to kill Bucky simply shows he has very little outside his ego and what bruises it.

Panther relented his murderous rage for an ACTUAL villian who killed his dad only days ago, Tony couldn't resolve his rage from literally 30 god damn years ago.

>>82652680
Suuure she did. Don't forget that Hawkeye hadn't yet explained all that to her when he broke her out, and when she overpowered Vision, and left with him. He likely told all of it in the ride there with Lang as well, but she had already decided which side she was on: not Stark's.

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>>82650066
Dude.

>>82652823
Glad the TV universe is finally merging with the movie one.

>>82650445

I think she's supposed to be in her early to mid 20s. She's an adult, but she's still a kid compared to everyone else who are in their 30s or 40s.

>>82653535
She knew she had to help Steve. What else did she need to know?

>>82653424

This.

Yes it's understandable why Tony would react that way.

But it was still wrong, and more importantly flies in face of just about everything he was preaching to Steve all movie.

>>82653746

Well help Steve could mean "Get into a fight with government troops because he doesn't want to obey the laws."

Yes that what they were prepared for but they had a good reason to do so because they knew about Zemo. But until then if it was just getting into a punchout with the world because of Steve's stubborness, well that's not quite so kosher.

>>82653916
The world should have known better.

>>82649823
No she's not. She signed the Accords and is still in good standing with the Avengers as far as the movie shows. We see her at the Avengers compound telling Tony to quit being an egotistical idiot and to watch his back after the airport fight rather than in the Raft.

>>82654018

Except T'challa told Ross she betrayed them and he was sending people to come for her. And she's not there at the end with Tony Rhodes and Vision.

Obviously she had to run off to avoid getting tossed in the Raft.

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>>82648227
They are nice.

>>82653424

You realize that the rage is god damn new because surprise! Your parents DIDN'T die in a
car accident, here's some surveillance footage of the guy right in the room with you murdering them brutally. Also your friend knew about it for years but didn't tell you because he's a hypocrite.

He has a right to be fucking enraged regardless of whether or not it was Bucky's fault. If a construction dude has a spasm and drops a fucking load of concrete and kills your wife and children right before your eyes you still have a right to be fucking pissed, in control of himself or not he still fucking did it.

Not for one second did I say that Tony should have been able to kill him. It's good that Steve stopped him, Bucky didn't deserve it, but Tony is more than fucking allowed to be angry and his reaction was understandable.

Also quit your bias, Panther spent most of the movie trying to kill Bucky don't try to put him on some fucking pedestal because he decided not to kill Zemo after already trying to murder a guy for several days.

>>82653871

And Steve's actions have flown in the face of everything he has been preaching as well. He saw the accords as a way of deflecting and rerouting blame to other people but he doesn't take responsibility for a single god damn thing that he caused in the movie. And yes that was a lot.

Every fight and all the damages was a result of his refusal to compromise whatsoever and "muh Bucky" but he never took on the weight of that, it was just nonstop deflecting onto the accords and Tony. It was never "I made my choice", it was "its your fault Tony."

That's literally the whole fucking point of the movie, they're both people with their good points and they both massively fucked up.

If you came out of the movie genuinely thinking that you were supposed to see Steve as infallible and Tony as a pure villain you literally had your eyes closed.

So Wanda is going full-on fuck up comics Wanda in Avengers 3 part 1, right?

>>82654640
They look playful and excited, like they just want to jump out and be played with.

>>82654139

Yup, Team Iron Man loses

>Spider-man

Sent home

> Vision

Sad

> Black Widow

on the run

> War Machine

not on the run....

> Black Panther

hiding in Wakanda

> Iron Man

beaten in battle.

Team Cap won.

>>82650543
And Vision was Reed + Cyborg Thor. Just because they very loosely adapted elements of the comics doesn't mean that they executed them in any kind of similar fashion.

>>82654698
This.

The movie went out of its way to really frame that Tony loved his parents and had come to terms with their deaths in what he perceived was caused by a car accident. Except it wasn't and they were murdered in cold blood by the one guy that Steve had defended throughout the entire film.

Also agreed, BP might have been on Tony's side but even during the airport battle he was blatantly trying to kill Bucky even constantly going for his neck.

Steve, while right in a lot of his stance, royally fucked up in how he handled things. He even admitted at the end that it was his own fuckup for never telling Tony about his parents.

>>82647272
It just a joke about how High school students are immature and stuff

>>82647186
>confident about her powers to BW during stealth part of Lagos
>missions goes wrong
>news says it's her fault, she doubts herself
>Vision and Tony don't trust her
>Hawkeey shows up, does the dad speech thing
>she gains self determination
I mean OP was a bit verbose about explaining the symbolism and importance of the events, but those basic elements are clearly her arc in the movie.

>>82654812
>War Machine
>crippled

Fixed.

>>82650521

I understand your argument, and yes, Wanda should definitely be allowed autonomy until she proves that she cannot handle it, but this isn't about basic freedom under the concept as we know it because the amount of damage we each can personally cause with our own bodies is minimal to the safety and well being of others.

Once you start throwing in "she has the potential to incite damage of a cataclysmic level", actions like unadulterated movement and unlimited privacy don't work anymore. Like Ross said, you can't just lose a Hulk and wait for him to destroy something.

If Wanda were free and she lost control (again) and people got hurt (again) how culpable are Cap and Hawkeye in those actions? By not understanding her, as a woman and as a source of power, and by neglecting the potential risks for favor of their personal feelings on the matter, they are responsible for what she might do.

>>82647040
I dig it but why reveal a costume at the end of AoU if you're just going to change it the very next film?

People excuse all sorts of things for protagonists. Imagine you lived in that world. You don't know everything that happened but you know there's a unit of people who always show up when there's explosions an people dying. You've seen youtube videos of this one chick hanging out with the robot that almost killed everyone on Earth a few months ago and devestated a whole county. Last week she was involved with an explosion that killed dozens.

She apparently has refused the government's efforts to investigate the matter, and was seen in other grainy youtube footage blowing up an airport while helping a well known terrorist bomber who just killed a world leader run from UN forces yesterday. I think you'd be writing your representatives and asking what the fuck they were thinking.

We know some things, but it's unrealistic to have people accept this shit. Having these people refuse any oversight would make them look worse in the world's eyes.

>>82655109
Because each movie has different designers, so each make their own outfit to have their credits on it.
Like Cap's outfit, which is just the one from AoU without the two red thingies coming from the star.
And probably to sell toys.

>>82654995
I think you missed the joke.

>>82654812
Team Cap are all on the run.

Hawkeye: absentee father cause he'll never see his kids again. (barring magic) They also monitor fugitive's families for things like unexplained money. Mrs. Hawkeye better get to work cause she's not getting any child support either.

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>>82654812
>War Machine
>not on the run

>>82654812
We also would have accepted:

>Black Widow
on the lamb

>War Machine
tony's sacrificial lamb

or

>Spider-Man
sent home

>War Machine
sent to the ER

or

>Iron Man
Cap touched a nerve at the end

>War Machine
can't feel anything on one end

or

>Vision
needs psycho-therapy

>War Machine
needs physical therapy

or

>Black Panther
doing his best to hide sergeant barnes

>War Machine
doing his best impression of lieutenant dan

>>82655288
Fury will probably see to it that she's taken care of.

>>82655348
BLACKED

>>82655348
Poor Clint.

>>82649623
Same here. They have put the "out of control" stuff at the beginning of her arc. I think they are showing her struggling, faltering, then overcoming, so in Infinity War we see her truly mastering her powers and becoming confident, with Cap and Strange being her mentors.

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>>82655333
>on the lamb
>lamb

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I haven't much enough comics yet, but is Wanda coming off as scary even disregarding her being broken as shit a normal thing?

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>>82655606
Yes because she's incredibly overpowered and she's not mentally stable.

>>82655606
Oh, in the comics it's much, much worse. There, she can warp the very nature of reality on a world-level scale. She wasn't always like that, I think it was mostly Bendis' doing.

>>82654725
She's hopefully going full Bayonetta in IW.

If she can control Chaos then she's practically built to inflict JUST on Thanos.

>>82654812
>Team Cap won.

Really yeah. They accomplished their mission at the airport of getting at least some of them off to Siberia.

And then Cap beat Iron Man at the end.

It was a team Cap victory all around.

At the end they're on the run but they're all fine and confident where as Tony and Vision are mentally broken and Rhodes is broken in the back sense.

>>82655785
>>82655756
Christ. Well, at least she's hot.

>>82646436
>Through her, we got to see the true nature of the ideology behind the Sokovia Accords and it's consequences as put into practice rather than in theory
You mean pay for your fuck ups?

>>82654873
>Steve, while right in a lot of his stance, royally fucked up in how he handled things. He even admitted at the end that it was his own fuckup for never telling Tony about his parents.

That's almost totally unreleated though to the rest of the movie that keeping something a secret he learned 2 movies ago would bite them in the ass in a way nobody could possibly predict in a totally different film.

In the stuff that actually was the bulk of the movie Steve was right. He was right that Bucky was innocent, and he was right that the UN would fuck up handling them when Zemo played them like idiots and they insisted on going after an innocent man. He was right that Zemo had an evil scheme even if it wasn't quite what he envisioned.

Where as Tony was completely wrong to believe in Ross and the UN and admits this when he goes behind their back to help Steve.

The Bucky video was barely related to the conflict about the Accords. Steve could have signed the accords and Tony and Steve could have been total bros the whole film and Tony still would have flown off the handle and tried to kill Bucky when Zemo showed him the clip.

>>82655827
In the comics Thanos had to resist that level of shit just to control the gems.

>>82655785
Hopefully they will lean more toward a Busiek tone, which portrayed her as struggling with depression, as complex and flawed, but still a heroic person, than Bendis.

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>>82655923
Don't worry, i'm sure she'll be fine.

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>>82656029
Bendis can go eat a dick. his Avengers disassembled was just one long character assassination.

>>82655861
>It was a team Cap victory all around.

What if I told you that winning a fight isn't necessarily winning? The world used to have a team of Avengers but Cap won and now there's no Avengers but a group of wanted fugitives that the international community will spend as much time looking for as they would any other threat.

>>82656258
> "No such thing as Chaos Magic".
> Wanda is then shown in a flashback panel possessed by Mr. Chaos Magic himself, Chthon!

> Wanda was worried about using magic to make babies. She was uneasy with the idea.u
> Bendis is unaware it was Strange who was fully behind the magic babies thing and dismissed Wanda's anxieties.
> Aside from assassinating Wanda, Bendis also makes Stephen look like a conceited asshole.

>>82656466

Based on everyone giving the Avengers shit because a few people died and there was some minor property damage that was clearly what the world wanted anyway.

>>82656491
but he is a conceited asshole.

>>82656503
>because a few people died

What if I told you that people dying is exactly the kind of reason to give people shit. A third party is going to have to clear your name if you're involved with dozens of deaths. You don't get to clear your own name. That's never been how that's worked.

Also, as for "minor damage", what if I told you that a commercial airliner can cost hundreds of millions of dollars? That's something they used as a tool in one fight to keep one man from sitting in a cell. Can any of team Cap guys pay for that kind of damage?

>>82647272
Early to mid-twenties.
But the characters who comment that they're kids are Captain America, who is in his 30's (or 100's if you count that) and Daddyhawk, who is literally married with children.

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How come everytime Wanda is in Africa she ends up killing a fuckload of innocent niggers.

>>82656608

That's really what people should be worried about in a world where hostile alien armies can drop out of the sky and start killing everyone.

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>>82656637
No more Africa

>>82656608

You know nobody gets mad at the skies when damage and death happens over hurricanes or tornados.

Superhero battles are basically acts of god. They just need insurance.

>>82646436
>>82646454
>>82647651

What's often overlooked about Wanda is that for most of the pre-Bendis era, her arc had a feminist undertone, but not in the crass manner of today's comics. The whole subtext, underneath the comicbook silliness, was Wanda fighting to be her own person and have control of her mind and body.

What's pleasantly surprising is that this is shown with MCU Wanda in such a skilled way by the Russo's.

>>82656648
>That's really what people should be worried about in a world where hostile alien armies can drop out of the sky and start killing everyone.

Aliens didn't destroy that airport. An ex-convict caused hundreds of millions in damages helping another fugitive escape. Who pays for that damage?

Firefighters save people every day. If they get in a bar fight and break some tables they're expected to pay for that shit. You don't get to cash in "hero" coins for shit that other people own.

>>82656690
>Superhero battles are basically acts of god.

God doesn't have an address to send bills to. The Avengers did.

>>82656637
She's just trying to make the world a better place

>>82656708
>Who pays for that damage?
The billionaire who decided to bring all of his science projects to fight him there.

>>82656729

So does Loki.

By all means they should bill him for the damage in New York (which is basically his fault).

That would certainly go wonderfully.

>>82656503
But isn't this the true premise of the movie?
That those with power be held accountable?
In saving the world, they ruined the lives of others in the wake, which is collateral damage, but rather than trying to mend the scared lives of those around them, they simply leave destruction in their wake. If the police smash into you with a squad car while in pursuit of a criminal, would you feel it's okay that they just leave you behind and fend for yourself?

No. And that's what Cap was running away from; him and his old buddy Buck having to pick up after themselves.

Yes, they framed it poorly as the UN having controlling rights of the Avengers, but what it really boils down to is that those in power should be responsible for the power they wield and deal with the consequences of misusing said power.

Hell, even Bucky tells Cap he killed those people and Cap blows it off like "Dur, buht hims mah friend!".

If Bucky and Cap were truly remorseful of that past and wanted to make things right, they wouldn't have beat someone nearly to death. Someone who had been wronged; had their loved ones ripped from them.

Instead of crushing and maiming they should have surrendered.

Instead, we have this anti-hero message telling us if you do something wrong but you didn't mean it, you can just run away and if anyone tries to stop you, fight back and kill some people because you're you and that's what matters most. Is that really a hero? Someone with power not being accountable for their actions, intended or not? Is that even worthy of support?

I always thought Cap was the guy who stood up for the little guy; went in head first to make sure everyone got a fair deal. Instead, we see him fight for preferential treatment of a couple of people that admit to doing bad things or ignoring to lots of innocent people that had bad things happen to them.

I wish they had left Cap dead in the books and they should've killed 'em in the movie.

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>>82656637
Wanda "Hotel Rwanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Bomb Wakanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Run over Niggers with my Honda" Maximoff
Wanda "This is my planet, Blacks get off" Maximoff

>>82656761
"People died."
"Niggas died, it's no biggie."

I mean really, Russos?

>>82656637
Why didn't T'Challa go after her?

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>''I know what you did in Africa, you are great.''
What the fuck is wrong with the Russos.

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>>82656805
Probably because he knows better.

>>82656824
>''Get in the plane and fuck off to chimp-land.''
Was it really necessary?

>>82656778
>That would certainly go wonderfully.

I don't think Asgard is as safe from Marvel Earth as you'd like to think. The next time Thor comes down with another "oh shit, one of Odin's problems is about to snuff out life on Earth", I'm pretty sure that he'd have a much better time of it without our hell-fire missiles chasing his ass down.

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Vision was about to practically kill Falcon in here.
Why didn't she stop him?

>>82656842
Vision wasn't going to do anything.
She was mind-controlling him.

>>82656842
Why would she?

>>82656810
>implying he didn't say that out of fear
But hey, it's nice that he made her smile.

>>82656781
>deal with the consequences of misusing said power.

Collateral damage from saving the world isn't misusing their power.

>If Bucky and Cap were truly remorseful of that past and wanted to make things right, they wouldn't have beat someone nearly to death. Someone who had been wronged; had their loved ones ripped from them.

There's nothing that can be made right about that. But Bucky isn't to blame. Hydra is. He was literally forced to be their puppet because he fell of a train trying to stop them in WW2. Letting Tony kill him just to feel better for 5 minutes (and when that 5 minutes is up Tony isn't going to feel better at all) isn't righting any wrong.

>Instead of crushing and maiming they should have surrendered.

Surrender for what? So Bucky could sit there and let Tony kill him?

>I always thought Cap was the guy who stood up for the little guy; went in head first to make sure everyone got a fair deal.

That is literally all he's trying to do this movie is give Bucky a fair deal when the UN wants him dead as an example and for political convieience and Tony wants to kill him because he's the nearest thing somewhat related to his parents death in arms reach.

Steve comes off as slightly biased because Bucky is his friend, but if Winter Soldier was just some random joe that he didn't know but he had the same information he'd stand up for them just as much, like when he stood up for Banner within minutes of meeting him when everyone gave him shit for being the Hulk, or when he stood up for Wanda and Pietro in AoU or Wanda here.

>>82656842
Can you not see? She's almost biting her lip, she wants to be REDDED by Vision.

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>''BOW BEFORE YOUR NEW FÜHRER''
Why didn't they block access to Stormfront and /pol/ in the Avengers HQ?

>>82656839

Yeah but then Thor can just bifrost his way back to Asgard.

And then when all life on earth is snuffed out he can come back and then take care of it.

>>82656781
>If the police smash into you with a squad car while in pursuit of a criminal, would you feel it's okay that they just leave you behind and fend for yourself?
That's a stupid analogy. For one thing it's not the police's job to stop and give you a tow while they're in the middle of a pursuit.

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>>82656889
>implying she doesn't want the Freedom dick
The only reason they haven't plowed her yet is because of Vision's cuck alert.

>>82656917
No, she probably doesn't. And he doesn't either, America would never fuck Communism.

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>>82656889

>>82656930
How did you get around the captcha, Vision.
It's supposed to stop the likes of you.

>>82656917
Well, I'm clearly spending too much time on /tv/. First thing I noticed were her feet

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>>82656942

>>82656832
Did you not see the foreshadowing?

WANDA: "What about the blacks?"
CAP: "Snuff them out."

The Russos just keep pushing the boundaries.

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>>82656917
>you'll never cuddle with her in that comfy af bed

>>82656917
"Vision...me and Wanda are having a conversation here, go paralyze some blacks."

> Russos went a bit too far there.

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>>82656917
>''Did I hear an holocaust denial?''
Wanda and Vision are going to make a really qt couple.

>>82656881
>Collateral damage from saving the world isn't misusing their power.

Saving one group of people, on a street, by killing a few dozen in an building.

>>82656881
>But Bucky isn't to blame. Hydra is.

Innocent men are still responsible for the damage they cause running away from the law.

>>82656881
>So Bucky could sit there and let Tony kill him?

Had Bucky surrendered at the airport he would have been safe in the Raft by the time Tony found out.

>>82656881
>give Bucky a fair deal when the UN wants him dead

There's no evidence that the UN wanted him dead. "Kill on sight" orders for a super-powered terrorist who has explosives and a superpowerful metal arm and can outrun a speeding car isn't "kill no matter what" orders. One's about protecting your own troops, the other is a kill squad.

We know this for a fact because once Bucky was subdued they took him into custody and put him in restraints in a box and didn't fill that box with gasoline and fire. They called for a psychologist too. Not a guy with gasoline and matches.

Bucky walking into a police station in bumfuck wherever he was and letting them put him in a cell when he found out he was wanted for blowing up the UN would have seen him perfectly safe. Instead he loaded a go bag with explosives for blowing up overpasses and attempted to toss UN soldiers down a multi-flight stairwell.

He tried to kill those troops, point blank and Steve just barely saved them. That wasn't mental conditioning that was all on him.

>>82656637
>>82656650
>>82656782
Wanda "Coloreds In The Trough" Maximoff
Wanda "Uganda Blackout" Maximoff
Wanda "Black Mamba, White Condom" Maximoff
Wanda "Killer Kwanzaa" Maximoff
Wanda "BBC Stroganoff" Maximoff

>>82656994
That bed is so comfy. You can imagine her snuggling in her pyjama top, curling up in that safe bed.
> You will never cuddle her as she sleeps.

>>82656901
>And then when all life on earth is snuffed out he can come back and then take care of it.

If he gives Earth no reason to trust him, that's on him. The guy comes to town and things blow up. We take down a bad guy, his brother, and he takes him away to magic land and we can't see if he's actually in jail or not. (how do you think that would fly if it was your son Loki dropped aliens on in New York?

People have a right to know if justice is done. If you deny them that, you cannot expect them to keep working with you.

>>82657034
Wonderman going in for the steal.

"Hey babe this metal man bothering you? You should come hang with me. I've been to space."

>>82647983
>i'm just reading the terrain
>if we only have one hand on the wheel we can still steer
>i said i'd help you find him, not catch him, there's a difference
>maybe it's you who should watch their back

i loved how adaptable widow was in this. she was on whoever's team made the most sense at the moment and it totally worked for her character.

>>82650130
there's a difference between feeling remorse for killing someone accidentally and nailing 612 spikes into your own body

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>>82657089
>>82656994
>you'll never keep her warm

>>82651938
fucking whedon

wonder what quickslav would've thought of everything?

>i wanna run fast
>this cat guy hurts to punch
>i wish i was at home fondling my sister

>>82652589
it is not implied ANYWHERE that cap told tony about the hydra files

>>82656915
No, but you'd expect something to be done about even if it were after the fact.

>>82657089
>You guys know I can move things with my mind, right?
What did she mean by this?

>>82656810
Post credit scene of Doctor Strange...

Stephen appears through a portal in Wakanda. He is stunned. "There's still blacks?"
He turns to see Wanda...
"Wanda...I was hoping you'd clean out all the niggas before I came."
"If you help me, I can do just that, Stephen."
Strange smiles.

> Jesus Christ Derickson just took it to the next level.

>>82656466
There are still the Avengers. It's just Tony's half of the Avengers. Anyone that fought on the side of the Accords can still operate.

>>82657034
Nigga, that's cute.

>>82657244
True, but now that's what, 3 people tops? Vision will get over himself and go back to saving lives, Tony literally can't stop being Iron Man, Rhodey is out of commission for probably a while, maybe they can use a Cradle to help his spine, but it's possible that after Ultron, they're being restrictive about that technology. Tony will probably be selective about how he uses Spider-Man, considering at the end if the Airport Fight, he seemed like he had second thoughts about dragging a kid into a war zone.

Meanwhile, Widow has gone off the grid, and most likely won't be found unless she wants to be, and T'Challa was only working with Stark to take down Bucky, and has since abandoned that mission.

So the Avengers is most likely now 2 active members, one out of commission member, and one most likely on reserve.

>>82656881
I get it, it's maybe a little too much for you as a 14y/o to understand, but when something doesn't go your way, throwing a fit and running away never makes anything better, despite what the fictional characters tell you in their movies.

And if your parents were killed and you had no closure; open wounds that haunt you for years, wouldn't you fly off the handle being shown who did it?

I'm not saying Tony should be able to kill the man who murdered his parents, but if Bucky and Rogers hadn't been running away to furiously the entire time, there wouldn't have been such needless destruction. All those police and soldiers probably permanently injured, maimed and some likely killed; if not immediately but after a long struggle to survive in critical condition because Captain America, a symbol of freedom, shattered their ribs with a solid front kick so his admitted murderer friend can get away. How many people have you known that get thrown through walls, down flights of stairs, or hit with the same force in the head that would shatter concrete? How many normal people do you know that could survive getting hit so hard in the chest, where vital organs are mind you; hit so hard they travel 10, 20 feet through the air and hit hard on the wall behind them? Do you think they didn't murder those people with their bare hands and shield?

Face it, Cap was the bad guy because rather than seeing the repercussions, the rippling effect of his actions and inactions and try to rectify them, he chose to ignore those he could help murder more. Given the powers he has, rather than help, he chose to run and kill anyone who got in his way.

>>82657351
Also Loki's staff has been compromised so it would take a direct attack on Jane Foster to get Thor back here and Hulk has scattered to the winds we think (to hang out with Thor).

Seems like the opportune moment for Thanos to pimp walk into Earth and snatch up some Infinity Stones.

>>82646454
>Hawkeye comes into the story as a counterpoint to this, treating her like the accountable woman she needs to be and helping her to reject Tony's offer of mewed luxury and step up to the fight, inspiring her to gain an independent understanding of herself and her beliefs.

I like this

>>82649858
They were probably thinking how to make an asset out of these powered people

>>82657057
>Had Bucky surrendered at the airport he would have been safe in the Raft by the time Tony found out
And then Tony could have walked right into the Raft and shoot a defenseless man in the chest as he likes to do.

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>>82657275
There's some really qt art of Scarlet Witch out there.

>>82657420
>Seems like the opportune moment for Thanos to pimp walk into Earth and snatch up some Infinity Stones
Except there's only one stone there as far as we're aware, and he doesn't seem to be in any kind of rush to get it.

>>82657710
delete this

>>82646436

this movie was good writen but damn it looked really really bland.

>>82654812
>> War Machine
>not on the run....
I laughed, you motherfucker

>>82656842
She did, dumbass.

What, you thought it was just bad luck that Vision not only missed his target, but scored a DIRECT CRITICAL STRIKE on Warmachine? When imposing "bad luck" is her oldest superpower?

>>82653654
damn, he broke that nigga's neck

>>82657697
>And then Tony could have walked right into the Raft and shoot a defenseless man in the chest as he likes to do.

There's no indication that they let him into the Raft with his suit. After this movie they'll probably take away his electronics too unless they're dumber than fuck.

>>82658009
>but damn it looked really really bland.
So you're saying it looked like every other Marvel movie

>>82652966
>Ross himself is also about the least unbaised man in existence, even when he was complimenting the hero's, the hate for them was on every word.

Yeah, the accords were being heavily influenced by a guy who made his entire career literally trying to chanse and imprison a superhuman, which he did partially because he didn't want him seeing his daughter.
"Thunderbolt" Ross is basically the LEAST objective individual to make Secretary of Defense, but probably the only candidate who could speak semi-authoritively on the "current events" of superhumans....even though his entire late military career was failing to capture and control one and creating another that was deeply psychotic.

>>82656842

>>82658244
Does she even have those powers?

>>82660219
Well they definitely seem to be affecting herself.

>>82660268
But Wanda has had some shitty luck all throughout her life.

>>82660316
Maybe they should change her probability manipulation shit to be alters one thing at the cost of another

>>82657804
>and he doesn't seem to be in any kind of rush to get it.
Most likely because he doesn't know the location of all six. He's got to have a plan to get all of them before he goes full Thanos Quest.

>>82656842
>Wanda "Nuke Wakanda" Maximoff
>Rescuing a black

>>82656898
Vision was probably a beta like always and just said
>s-sure darling whatever you say...

>>82660500
from what Thor said about the stones showing up one after another when they're meant to be as hard to find as dragonballs without a radar, I get the impression he did some kind of voodoo to Earth thats acting as a fate-magnet for them, gathering them all together for him

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>>82662059
It's difficult to say eactly what has happened. The Tesseract has been on Earth for generations. Thanos sends Loki with the scepter to Earth to retrieve it, which fails, but gets the Mind Gem repostioned in Asgard, and the Mind Gem on Earth.

Now the Aether, The Reality Gem, is a tougher one, because on the surface at least, Thanos did nothing to disrupt it. The Convergence happened at the appointed time in the 5,000 years since the last one. The out-of universe reason may be that they were still coming up with the idea that there are "Infinity Stones" in the MCU when Thor 2 was in production, and it was added to the story midway through. But in universe, I don't know, maybe Thanos decided to position his play for the stones around this event. The Orb was clearly gone after by Thanos and the Collector, at the time when the seas on Morag receded and it was accessible.

All these events, I don't know. Maybe Thanos couldn't have truly shifted them to his favor. Maybe it's part of a plan even larger than him, a plan by the mistress he serves. Maybe the grand scheme is unfolding with none of the mortal players able to truly affect its course.

>>82662465
I'm just waiting to see the Nova Corps get royally fucked and Quill's guilt complex.

>>82662677
When Markus and McFeely were giving an interview about Civil War and Infinity War, they mentioned some reservations about Death herself, which I find troubling, but when mentioning all the great cosmic characters out there, they mentioned Nova, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see Richard Rider in one or both of the Infinity War movies.

>>82661952

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Suffering, now in HD

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>>82664296
Can you post this one?

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>>82664415
Not to happy with how the auto tone came out though

>>82664483
Yeah, it looks grainy too.
We'll have to wait for the BluRay.

The Vision scenes are amazing in how they layer the movies themes, Wanda's arc, the romance

>>82665060
Well, it is a shot of a screen. It's always gonna be grainy

>>82665214
Isn't it from the TC rip?

>>82665234
Yes, but in that specific scene he's looking at a screen. So it's a shot of the security screen itself

You can't buy a gun and ago run around the world shooting criminals. If an American flew across to the Congo and starting gunning down warlords and shit he'd be fucking arrested.

Having superpowers doesn't suddenly put you above the law. If you want to be a cop or a soldier then sign up. Otherwise you're a civilian and can't break to law to be a vigilante.

>>82666999
Captain America isn't just some guy with a gun anon

>>82667474
>Having superpowers doesn't suddenly put you above the law.

>>82667523
The law isn't a proper metric for measuring ones morality.

>>82668248
Totally irrelevant to the discussion and point I made.

>>82668275
You seem to be advocating for total obedience to the law as a prerequisite to fighting for your moral beliefs

>>82668357
You're trying to weasel out of answering the actual argument, but I'll bite. Society doesn't work without law. Law is why we aren't cave dwelling savages. Having super powers doesn't suddenly put you above it.

Just because Cap can bench more than a normal guy doesn't mean he can overrule society and enforce his dictatorial will to override the liberties and freedoms of other people.

>>82668566
You seem to think it's only Steves strength that is a deciding factor, but it's actually his inner virtue. Tony and General Ross are both genuinely bad men, and Steve is right for rejecting their authority. You're advocating for good men to submit themselves to others who will abuse their power

>>82668638
You don't get to pick what laws you do and don't want to obey just because people don't have the power to stop you. That's not how it works, that's not democracy. By breaking the law, performing criminal acts and overruling society to enforce his own personal dictatorial will Captain America demonstrates that he is not virtuous or just. He abandons the ideals of freedom and liberty to act as a dictator.

Tony is a responsible member of society who is morally acting for the collective good under lawful means. He is upholding the law. He is protecting societal values. He is enforcing rules that provide safeguards to civilian harm. He is charitably funding the advancement of science. Everything he does is in service of the common good and upholds the liberty and justice of society. Tony is far more just and virtuous than Cap in the MCU now.

That whole "No, you move" speech that Cap fans love is some chilling autocratic supervillain tier shit.

>>82668638
I'll add to my post >>82669014 here by posing a question. If there was a human that to you represented the best of humanity. Someone that you consider to be morally unimpeachable, expert in all subjects and completely responsible.

Would you be okay with that person being an absolute autocratic dictator of all humanity or is that inherently wrong?

>>82669014
>>82669234
Your ideals of freedom and democracy are nothing but conformist submission to a corrupt buerocratic system. Your argument holds no water once you realize that the institutions of law ib America aren't ethical or moral. You're demanding that Steve surrender to General Ross in the name of "freedom".

Steve isn't trying to rule the world. He's the only one content with just doing his job and facing threats when they come up. It's the petty, cycnical and paranoid people like yourself that want to dictate how others live their lives, imposing guilt and shame upon those who stand out and demand that they fall in line and biw their heads to corrupt authority like you have.

Your obedience to the law is unbecoming

>>82669234
If such a person was to exist,
>morally unimpeachable, expert in all subjects and completely responsible.
then it would be an objective fact that having anyone else be in charge would be worse.

You basically described Plato's philosopher king, and were such a person to exist then I would have no problem with them ruling.

Sadly, real people are imperfect and prone to corruption.

>>82669014
Also, Tony is literally a full on sociopath anon. This point you're trying to make is stupid as hell. Tony has never once been portrayed as just or virtuous. He's an insane man that performs dangerous electroshock therapy on himself, can't tell the difference between saving the world and destroying it, and at this point has actively been trying for years to institute a totalitarian rule over the earth like the Truman Show

>>82669014
>He is enforcing rules that provide safeguards to civilian harm.
There isn't a damned thing that the Accords would have done to prevent civilian harm. All they were was lip service to placate the masses.

>He is charitably funding the advancement of science.
This is true.

>Everything he does is in service of the common good and upholds the liberty and justice of society.
This is absolute bullshit. Everything that Tony Stark does is to absolve his own guilt. Every last thing.

>Tony is far more just and virtuous than Cap in the MCU now.
Cap isn't the one who flew off the handle and tried his damnedest to try and murder a man who he KNEW wasn't responsible for his actions.

>>82669014
Tony was also willing to deny Wanda her basic human rights because "She's not even American."

As "weapons" the other Avengers are probably going to be denied their rights by the Accords as well. That already seems to be the case with how Ross rides Tony throughout the movie, cute "putting you on hold" joke aside.

>>82669432
Your views are contrary to the very idea of society and justify the actions of every criminal in history that has ever genuinely believed they were doing to the right thing. Your position is essentially anarchism and allows anyone with the ability to do it to do whatever they feel like.

>>82669498
But a significant portion or even a majority of people could still disagree with him or be dissatisfied with his order. Personally I would consider that to make his rule inherently wrong despite his capability for the role were he a dictator. It would still need to be democratically decided that he would rule with accountability to the demands of the people and the democratic ability to remove him from rule for it to be just.

>>82669508
Sociopaths don't feel guilt about lost lives or feel the need to perform charitable acts under their own conscience.

>>82664483
Why is this so hot?

>>82669760
Democracy is only the mob rule of the incompetent. Democracy leads to exploitative corporatism and industrialisation under the direction of petty merchants. You ascribe far too much virtue to democracy. The masses that are voting are no more virtuous than the monarch you vilify

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>>82669760
>But a significant portion or even a majority of people could still disagree with him or be dissatisfied with his order. Personally I would consider that to make his rule inherently wrong despite his capability for the role were he a dictator. It would still need to be democratically decided that he would rule with accountability to the demands of the people and the democratic ability to remove him from rule for it to be just.
So basically, you'd prefer, say, Comacho to be ruler over the hypothetical perfect ruler if that's what the masses wanted. I can't agree with such a thing, ever.

Yes it's important to keep the masses happy, but their will has no bearing on whether or not something is actually "moral" or "correct."

Democracy only truly works as intended when the populace itself is intelligent and educated.

>>82669863
If you disagree with democracy fundamentally then fine, I accept that and won't argue that point. Though I hope you appreciate the humor in defending Captian America while decrying democracy, although that being said Captain America himself has abandoned the values of democracy now in fairness. In my view freedom and liberty is in democracy and so in my view Captain America has abandoned those ideals. And regardless of your position he fundamentally is no longer protecting society and by extension its citizens, he is attacking the social order.

He genuinely doesn't deserve that shield.

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>>82669791
Because her looking completely dead inside makes you think you could ''play'' with her and she wouldn't do a thing.

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>>82664483
>They get to watch her pee

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>>82670064
>you don't get to make her smile

>>82669892
>Yes it's important to keep the masses happy, but their will has no bearing on whether or not something is actually "moral" or "correct."
Unless you believe in a moral authority on the basis of a belief in a higher power or something along those lines then it's hard to justify a moral good or correctness that exists beyond the common agreement of the majority in my view.

>>82670149
Then you don't actually have any moral beliefs anon. That's what you're missing here

>>82670000
You're not seeing that all you're advocating for is submission to a corrupt and incompetent UN panel and the command of General Ross. You're holding boot licking conformity as a virtue

>>82670149
>the common agreement of the majority
This is the basis of LAW. It has absolutely no bearing on morality itself.

>>82670193
I have my own beliefs in what is right based on my own personal experiences and perspective on the world. But I don't for a second consider my beliefs to be fundamentally true, I recognise the bias that exists in me. The only way we a people can work together and have rules that apply fairly and justly to all people is to combine our perspectives and come to a workable agreement.

>>82670236
Firstly I disagree with the notion that they're corrupt or incompetent. That's just a spin you're putting on it to support your bias. Secondly what you call boot licking conformity I call justice and cooperation. What you consider to be right I call criminal behavior and anarchy.

>>82670277
They're subtly different but effectively the same. Bad moral conduct we punish by law and negative social consequence. Good moral conduct we reward with recognition and positive social consequence. Things that are morally good are things that are of collective benefit, we consider them to be good for this reason. They promote cooperation and advancement.

To imply a fundamental defined morality that exists independently of the views of humans is to suggest the existence of a being other than humanity that defined it, effectively claiming a god exists.

>>82656637
Goddamn, I just wanted to snuggle with her in that bedroom scene

>>82656950
Pssh, thighs. Those are what you always look for on a hot woman. Footfags are cancer

>>82670428
>They're subtly different but effectively the same.
No. They are not.

Up until fairly recently, it was entirely legal to force your wife to have sex with you regardless of their wishes on account of the fact that spousal rape wasn't an officially recognized thing. So basically, you could rape your wife all the live long day and it was perfectly lawful to do so.

Is that moral?

>A person may not walk around on Sundays with an ice cream cone in his/her pocket.
This is an actual law that existed in America. Are you honestly going to claim that this is immoral?

In most places it's perfectly legal to pursue and fuck someone else's spouse. Are you going to claim that that's a moral action?


While laws should be based on morality, they do not define morality itself.

>>82670428
You've sacrificed your own autonomy and independent thought for a "collective good" that doesn't really exist and is really only for the benefit of a few. It's naive of you to not realize that institutions of authority like the UN are corrupt to the core of their function. There is no collective benefit, just a fleeting, ignorant mob directed by those who appoint themselves to speak for them and all of the individuals they destroy in the process

>>82670579
>Up until fairly recently, it was entirely legal to force your wife to have sex with you regardless of their wishes. Is that moral?
I don't consider that to be moral personally. I'm glad that myself, you and enough other people all agreed that it was morally wrong in order to change that law. I also don't think that because I don't consider it to be moral that all humans must bow to my dictatorial will however and I'm also going to shoot down every other example you have on the basis that what I personally consider to be moral or immoral is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Furthermore to your America specific examples America is not a perfect democracy. I'm arguing this particular point in the context of a perfect democracy where the views of the majority are properly reflected in law at all times which is not the case in America.

>While laws should be based on morality, they do not define morality itself.
You're correct laws don't define morality, that's backwards. Common views on morality define law.

And I'm curious, if people don't define morality what you do consider to define morality? God? Is it written into the fabric of the universe? Is it a mathematical truth? Do you personally define what it moral for all people?

>>82670884
The views of the common majority don't define morality either. You've only been advocating for mob rule this whole time.

>>82670884
>Furthermore to your America specific examples America is not a perfect democracy. I'm arguing this particular point in the context of a perfect democracy where the views of the majority are properly reflected in law at all times which is not the case in America.

Where has this ever been the case on a large scale? If America's laws are imperfect due to not being a true democracy, there are very few places where the laws are perfect and none of them are very big so by those standards the law is almost always not morality.

>if people don't define morality what you do consider to define morality?

Morality isn't defined anywhere. Every moral system is based on axioms. Morality can only be consistent with itself.

>>82671064
>The views of the common majority don't define morality either.
I believe that they do. Since you disagree then I ask again despite you clearly avoiding answering the question.

Who or what does define morality?

>>82671262
>>The views of the common majority don't define morality either.
>I believe that they do.
Then it's just like >>82670193
said and you really don't have any moral beliefs yourself.

>>82669014
>That whole "No, you move" speech that Cap fans love is some chilling autocratic supervillain tier shit.

You make it sound like it's impossible for authority to be corrupt and the majority to be in the wrong.

Plenty of times in history proved that wrong. And we'd all be screwed if a few people didn't tell everyone else to move.

Remember when nobody was willing to stand against the Nazi's for several years, just caving to them and hoping they'd be satisfied because fighting another world war would just have been so inconvienient for everyone? Great how that worked out.

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the amount of fedora tipping in this thread is off the charts.

>>82671242
>Where has this ever been the case on a large scale? If America's laws are imperfect due to not being a true democracy, there are very few places where the laws are perfect and none of them are very big so by those standards the law is almost always not morality.
We're discussing beliefs and ideology in an idealised sense at present. Not the failings of various real organisations.

>Morality isn't defined anywhere. Every moral system is based on axioms. Morality can only be consistent with itself.
It is defined somewhere otherwise it literally doesn't exist. If you think that murdering = bad that idea didn't just pop out of thin air, it came from somewhere. And you must believe that it came from a source of incredible authority because you believe it can override the views of the majority in the event of a conflict.

So what is that source?

>>82671317
Please consider reading and understanding a discussion in full before attempting to participate. We've already been over that fallacy and your post is not constructive. To reiterate for you see >>82670428

>I have my own beliefs in what is right based on my own personal experiences and perspective on the world. But I don't for a second consider my beliefs to be fundamentally true, I recognise the bias that exists in me. The only way we a people can work together and have rules that apply fairly and justly to all people is to combine our perspectives and come to a workable agreement.
I have my own personal views on morality that come from my own biased perspective. I recognise that my morality comes from a biased perspective based in my own experiences and values and that a true societal morality can only come from a collective agreement. To enforce my personal morality upon everyone else is in my view wrong as I am opposed to anarchism and autocracy, that is an example of my own moral beliefs.

>>82671598
Yes, you sacrifice your own beliefs so you can instead impose the morality of a mob upon others, you yourself submitting to become a faceless member of it

>>82671651
>he says while he shitposts in a korean picture distribution system

>>82671760
>korean picture distribution system
What's up with this meme.

>>82671441
I do believe it is impossible for the majority to be in the wrong, that's because I believe that the majority define what is right. Also using the Nazi's there doesn't really support your argument, you're not really touching on democratic decision making or definitions on morality in that point. If you want to bring the Nazi's into the thread discussion how about we talk about Captain Dictator's paramilitary Schutzstaffel and go full Godwin's law?

>>82671651
If you want to go full hyperbole and not try to understand and discuss each others views we may as well stop talking. That post warrants a response of
>Yes, you crush the beliefs of others so you can force the your autocratic morality upon them, you ascending to the seat of absolute dictator of humanity to rule the inferior humans beneath you whose views don't matter.
I mean how fucking constructive is that?

>>82671852
The majority are ignorant for the most part anon.

>>82671598
> We're discussing beliefs and ideology in an idealised sense at present. Not the failings of various real organisations.

It looks more like we're hopping back and forth between the two. For instance some guy called you a bootlicker for siding with Ross. Your belief in the sovereignty of law comes from an imaginary ideal where everything is perfectly democratic. That's fine, but that ideal clearly doesn't apply to Ross and the Accords so it shouldn't be used as a defense for them.

>If you think that murdering = bad that idea didn't just pop out of thin air, it came from somewhere.

That's what an axiom is, an idea that is believed to be self-evident or fundamental even though it has never been proven. If I say murdering someone is wrong, I can be making an axiomatic statement. If you say murdering is only wrong because we democratically agreed on it, then that's fine too but your belief that democracy is right is still axiomatic until you back it up with some other underlying reason.

At any rate it's a pretty big leap to go from "my idealized perfect democracy would have perfect laws and be perfectly just" to "Ross has the law on his side, and therefore opposing him is morally wrong"

>>82650521
>I don't think laws or prisons should exist
??

>>82655091
>Like Ross said, you can't just lose a Hulk and wait for him to destroy something.

Ross lost the Hulk first. Loss CREATED the Hulk. That was the most bullshit line in the entire movie.

>hurr I'd be held accountable if I lost a nuke

Then why isn't he?

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>>82671852
>Yes, you crush the beliefs of others so you can force the your autocratic morality upon them, you ascending to the seat of absolute dictator of humanity to rule the inferior humans beneath you whose views don't matter

That's actually closer to my beliefs than you realize anon. I'm a Doctor Doom guy at heart

>>82672008
And yet I still believe they have the right to have their fair say in the governance of society. That's just something we not going to see eye to eye on ultimately.

>>82672015
>It looks more like we're hopping back and forth between the two.
Well you're certainly right that things have drifted considerably. On the topic of the accords in the movie this is ultimately my position. The proposition that the Avengers are given is:

>You are acting as a paramilitary unit without any regard for law or sovereignty of nations or really anything. If you want to be a cop or a soldier then you sign up and you become a cop or a soldier, you legitimise yourself. If you do not act legitimately then you retire, you stop doing what you're doing because it's against the law. It's against the laws that everybody else has to obey.

It's not refusing to sign the accords that is wrong, it's breaking the law which is entirely separate. They were breaking the law and were told "you can either start doing this legitimately or you can stop". Just because they have super powers they don't get to be exempt from the law, you are not allowed to go be a vigilante in Russia and neither are the Avengers.

They said "Fuck law, fuck society" and then went and blew up an airport. They should be in jail.

>>82671852
>I do believe it is impossible for the majority to be in the wrong, that's because I believe that the majority define what is right.

Well that's wrong. The majority of the American South wanted slavery. The majority of South Africa wanted Apartheid. The majority wanted the Crusades.

Majority does not mean right.

>>82672555
You're entitled to have that opinion.

>>82672480
Why do you think an ignorant mob that has no real understanding of what the want, let alone what they need, who also have no insight or understanding of how society should be governed should have any say about anything?

>>82672480
Yeah but what makes the law so sacred and morally wrong to break?

If your belief is that a perfect democracy would necessarily be morally just and anyone who breaks the law would be evil, fine.

But Cap didn't break the law of that hypothetical perfect democracy; he broke the laws of the MCU earth. Completely different story.

Since MCU UN doesn't exist in your perfectly idealized democracy we're going to need some other means to evaluate right and wrong.

>>82656637
>Wanda "My dead twin brother was bigger" Maximoff

>>82672617

That is not an opinion. All of these things were flat out wrong and if you think they are ok because the majority wanted them then you are not a moral person at all.

>>82672622
Because they're the majority, of course. And the majority can't be wrong.

I never expected to find someone honestly professing such a belief.

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>>82670462
We all did.

>>82672480
Captain America in every single movie he's been in has proven himself capable of operational autonomy while also working with the established authorities in crisis situations, such as working with the military and police in New York as a coordinated front. Where do you think he stepped over the line? It seems like it's only Tony who over reaches. Steve is content to just do his job without trying to create a totalitarian system of surveillance or create super beings to end all conflict on earth. He's humble enough to know he's just a man who's role is to stand against the threats others can't face

>>82672617
Unless the majority disagrees, right?

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>>82672733

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>>82672733
Guys, what is this fluttery feeling I keep getting when I see Wanda?

>>82672636
The fact that there are issues doesn't mean that you can throw your hands up in the air and say "fuck everything" and disregard the law. If you want to see change there are democratic solutions. Even if it isn't perfectly idealised it's still a democratic society of laws. I think American laws of broadband provision are insufficient and don't justly reflect the views of the majority, but that doesn't mean I think it's okay to criminally get internet access and also the majority is currently making their voice heard on that and change is happening right now because of it.

Captain America could have lawfully raised his objections. Instead he assaulted a bunch of Police officers and caused a shit ton of collateral damage and civilian endangerment. Fact is Captain America wasn't a criminal when he decided to not sign the accords. He was a criminal when he broke the law, beat the shit out of the police, caused a bunch of collateral damage and stole a car.

>>82672693
So who decided it was fundamentally morally wrong? You? God?

>>82658302
WANDA OF MURDER

>>82673012
>Captain America could have lawfully raised his objections. Instead he assaulted a bunch of Police officers and caused a shit ton of collateral damage and civilian endangerment. Fact is Captain America wasn't a criminal when he decided to not sign the accords. He was a criminal when he broke the law, beat the shit out of the police, caused a bunch of collateral damage and stole a car.
He wasn't given the chance to lawfully raise his objection, the kill order had already been called. Had he not acted at all, either an innocent man (Bucky) would have been killed, the cops would have been killed trying to kill him, or, in the worst-case scenario, Bucky AND a bunch of cops all end up killing each other.

Dude outright states in the movie that he's the best bet at minimizing casualties in that situation, and he was right.

>>82672955
Diarrhea.

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>>82672955
Chaos magic.

>>82673012
Democracy as you see it is in reality only a congested institution of incompetent bureaucrats who sell themselves to the rule of corporatism

>>82673109
Well that's a discussion of whether you believe the ends justify the means or not. Clearly you do, myself not to much.

>>82673079
She has done nothing wrong though.

>>82673258
So you would have been fine with the worst-case scenario happening as long as Cap just did as he was told and followed the rules like a good little soldier?

>>82646436
>Wanda blows up like what eleven people
>literally locked away

>Tony builds a murderbot out of ignorance and said murderbot destroys a country
>quip quip quips and money for everyone!

My two cents.
There are no objective moral values. Or at least we have no reason to think they are. As entities they're as unlikely to exist as unicorns, invisible elves, yada yada.

The lack of objective moral values means there is no right/wrong, good/evil. Does that mean we can subjugate "objective" with "collective subjectiveness" ? No. That'd be ad populum. You can't appoint a truth value "because people believe it to be so". The earth was thought to be flat by the majority for a long time. it wasn't.

Anything is like anything else when it comes to be known and be true/false. Studying earth's shape and studying morals -even if it's just to define their existence or lack thereof- should happen on the same terms. You can't say ad populum is allowed just in that.


So that leaves us without right/wrong, etc. At this point your choices can only be made either under false impressions of morality, or for your own desires. With that in mind you can't say which one is wrong. They are both on the same level of trying to shape the world as they want, no one is "in the right".

Laws are made based on what we want. They're not eternal or holy or something. Neither is the process of making them.

That doesn't mean there can be no use for democracy. It can lead to a lot of happiness and cooperation and that tends to work more often than the opposite. Or at least it has the potential to work in theory, with a smaller "shit will get fucked" factor than a monarchy.

But democracy as an ideal and MCU democracy or our universe democracy are different things.
The will of the people isn't expressed in democracy as it exists now. People have extremely less say in what laws are passed.

So while respecting the majority has historical value and can help the evolution of our culture it's not like not doing so is a betrayal of the public. Especially when stuff like "you're potentially dangerous, you'll be especially regulated" come into play.

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>>82673598
Plus she saved a fuckload of others by doing so, including Cap.

>>82673528
It's not right to view the incident in a vacuum, disregarding the law now sets precedent for later and causes a degradation of society and justice.

Furthermore you are only able to make this argument at all because it happened to work out good and not bad. That in itself discredits it. You can't use the outcome to justify the action when it's not certain.

If we use the outcome to justify decisions we end up with shit like If there's a 1% chance of me winning something on which I bet my entire life savings and I win it then doing it was a smart decision. Clearly it wasn't, the outcome is irrelevant.

>>82673012
> Captain America could have lawfully raised his objections.

And then Bucky would be dead. Fuck your laws.

>>82673598
>Wanda influenced Tony to make Ultron
>Wanda influenced Bruce to hulk out

>>82654812
>Spider-man
>Sent home
Also potentially targeted because of the Accords now too.

>>82673928
I wish she influenced me__________

>>82673150

>>82673598
Being Wanda is suffering.

>>82654744
You okay dude?