Grant Morrison is one of those writers that I simply do not understand.

Is this pasta?

Anyway, Morrison's great. It's hard to go back to a standard Batman story after going through his run several times and catching all the clues and payoffs.

>>82399793
Thanks for proving OP right.

>>82399574
It's like how Frank Herbert's Dune is a classic piece of literature. Maybe it was great when it was published, but nowadays it's kinda dumb.

>>82399885

>Dune
>not still good

I see, so morrison-haters are just suffering from extreme shit-tasteitis

>>82399574
>He takes everything to the extreme and wants to make his stories the biggest and most important stories in that character’s history because he sees himself as the most important writer in the history of the written word.

Do you have any evidence for this?

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Morrison's a great writer for the reasons you mentioned, but he does tend to go overboard and be a little pretentious. It's like he and certain other writers are so in love with the idea of storytelling that they get caught up beating around the bush and the story itself actually suffers.

>>82399939
I've read it three times and the books following it twice. It's not bad and it makes an interesting world, but a lot of the philosophy and religious stuff he comes up with is nonsense meant to look intellectual.

>>82400036
>certain other writers

I think some of those are inspired by Morrison, but they're much less well read than he is. Matt Fraction comes to mind. I know he's one of the " people just don't understand Final Crisis" fans

>>82399885
>Dune
>classic literature
genre fiction fags need to go

>>82400047
>a lot of the philosophy and religious stuff he comes up with is nonsense meant to look intellectual

do you have a singlicious satisfact to snack that up

>>82400016
He has a tendency to write cosmic epics with a huge sense of finalty, but the rest of that sentence is the OP projecting his irrational hate.

>>82400108
>>>/lit/
>>>/highway during rush hour/
>>>/your bathroom and slit your wrists/

>>82400138
come back when you've read the greeks kid

I think the problem with Morrison, when you get down to it, is that he can become SO fanboy-ish with the subjects that he's writing, that he can't help but say, "OMG ISN'T THIS THE FUCKING COOLEST!!!?!?!?? IT'S EXACTLY LIKE [insert high-minded, frequently esoteric subject here]!!!!!"

And it's not exactly the worst mentality to have, as a writer. But the idea is to use those ideas to weave together a great story. Morrison usually just does "Character X is like Important Thing Y" and then delivers a weak (and sometimes convoluted) story along with it.

>>82400132
>He has a tendency to write cosmic epics with a huge sense of finalty
he writes stories with endings. I think he should be applauded for that.

>the rest of that sentence is the OP projecting his irrational hate.
to me it reads like someone who gets irrationally angry at the idea of "smart" things. I'd wager that he's the same type of person who gets all worked up over modern art because "art should be pictures of things I recognize"

>>82400171
come back after you've downed a bottle of pills

/lit/ is almost /a/ bad

>>82400103
I was thinking of Al Ewing based on what I've seen from reading the new Ultimates and what I've seen from the storytimes of kid Loki to current Loki.

On one hand I like Ewing because it's neat to see an examination and challenging of archetypes and expectations of characters while leaning on or directly referencing the fourth wall along with world building and excellent usage of previous character development.

On the other hand I sometimes want him to just shut the fuck up and have some characters duke it out rather talk about how metaphors are powerful and shit.

Yeah, Morrison, Al, the pen is mightier than the sword blah blah blah and you're starting to repeat the shit I heard in my high school English class.

>>82400265
upset Herbert and GRRM are quite literal trash?

Man, you just don't get it

>>82400302
no, he's upset at your pleb taste

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>>82400222
Example?

I've always seen Morrison as someone who grew up as an angry comic nerd, got laid and took some psychedelics, and wants to show his friends all the cool stuff he's learned. He wants to help people, first and foremost. This is most easily seen in Flex Mentallo and The Invisibles, but even shit like ASS is him saying "Hey, life is pretty fucking cool"

>>82399574
>His first arc was a continuation of "Son of the Demon" despite that story ending with said child miscarried.

Where?

>>82400222
I don't think that's true at all. Morrison's work is about contextualizing characters within the universe they're in. He takes a character's body of background work and ties it together with a theme. That's why is works always feel "final." He's saying, "when you look at everything this character represents, this is who they are. This is what role they play within these myths."

>>82400351
"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."

>>82399861
Not fooling anybody, OP.

>>82400351
ayy the problem with fantasy and sci-fi is that the genres are so incestuous to the point where there's not a truly original thought anymore. There is some literary sci-fi out there but its few and far between. The two genres also intersect with each other frequently which makes it even worse

>>82400490
also not to mention the loaded purple prose that would give stephen king, the man who will describe a rock for pages, a heart attack

>>82400302
I'm upset that the college freshmen from /lit/ are being allowed out of their cage to chimpout on the rest of the board.

>>82400405
I don't want to read your scat fetish retard

>>82400271
You should read New Avengers then. The latest issue has a giant robot and not!Godzilla fighting.

>>82400490
>ayy the problem with fantasy and sci-fi is that the genres are so incestuous to the point where there's not a truly original thought anymore.

so are you new to the concept of ideas or something

>>82400490
>>82400405
These are the kind of replies I'd expect someone from /tv/ pretending to be someone from /lit/ would say.

>>82400271
>On the other hand I sometimes want him to just shut the fuck up and have some characters duke it out

par the course for marvel fans

>>82400555
you can still work something creative and somewhat original out of ideas. Look at Pynchon or McElroy or Faulkner. Those guys are brilliant because nobody writes like they do

>>82400577
nah it's probably an actual /lit/fag

I do wonder why they're on /co/ of all places though. Very very little of this board's content is not genre fiction, and we all know anything remotely interesting gives /lit/ an aneurism

>>82400599
>Those guys are brilliant because nobody likes what they do

ftfy

>>82400536
>>82400581
I'm not saying I want something dumb and simple, just that I get a little tired of writers trying to squeeze an parade of "high brow" concepts into comics under the pretense of being philosophical.

I don't like Morrison's dialogue. It never feels like characters talking, but writer writing how characters talk. It's hard to explain, but it's kind of the same to me when you see Jim Carrey trying to play Riddler or Ebenezer Scrooge. He's not Riddler or Ebenezer, he's Jim Carrey trying to play them, y'know?

>>82399574
Is Morrison /co/ Araki?

>>82401924
Yes.

He's talented and spergs with bad taste shit on him to fell better about liking trash

>>82401924
Morrisonfags aren't as bad as Jojofags, believe it or not

>>82399574
>This is no better demonstrated when he took over Batman and in only 4 years time DC had to reboot.
lmao

>>82401924
Morrison is to /co/ the way that Kirkbride is to /v/.
He writes stories that are completely out there with plenty of references to literature and myth.
His writing also tends to have some play in the way the universe if the setting is set up.

>>82401905
>It never feels like characters talking, but writer writing how characters talk. It's hard to explain

No I get it. I think Animal Man was the exception, Buddy and his family are easily the most human and believable characters Morrison has ever written.

>>82402080
I don't know why but I don't believe you.

>>82399574
The whole appeal of Morrison is that he does all these wild crazy superhero stories. He's great at coming up with off the wall ideas, but never had much talent beyond that. When the ideas are enough to carry the book his work tends to be pretty solid. Otherwise he basically sucks.

>>82401924
>>82402137
Araki is more like Jack Kirby to me.

>>82399574
Go be a pleb somewhere else m8

>>82402287
>He's great at coming up with off the wall ideas

Too many times I feel like he just drops the idea and movies on to another one. Then the excuse, I'm not sure if it's his or his fans, is that he's doing it so other writers can pick up where he left off and do the work developing them. Which of course never happens.

>>82402306
Yeah I feel the same too. Araki is more like Kirby than Morrison.

>>82402370
But that's his whole thing. He takes the history of comics, shakes it up, and finds all these new plot hooks that could go in any direction.

Then people like Geoff come in and make 10000 new color coded characters or Lobdell comes in and tries to out-edge himself and everything Morrison contributed just gets ignored. It's the same as what happens with Wonder Woman every time a new writer comes on- nobody wants to contribute to a mythos, they just want to smash the action figures together for a year or so.

>>82402287
>He's great at coming up with off the wall ideas, but never had much talent beyond that. When the ideas are enough to carry the book his work tends to be pretty solid. Otherwise he basically sucks.

I always want to ask people who say things like this who their favorite writer is. It would be good for a laff if they'd ever answer truthfully.

>>82402137
That's actually perfect.

The difference is that Morrison was given lots of books while Kirkbride was slammed and driven out of the industry

>>82402545
>who their favorite writer is
For capes? J.M. DeMatteis or John Ostrander

>>82402571
He's in the wrong medium.
Maybe Kirkbride can write Teen Titans, how often do they get to deal with Multiversal shit?

The worst part about Morrisons's writing is how disruptive it can be for everyone else. Literally halfway through Batman and the Outsiders they stopped the story and replaced it with everyone being sad for Batman's "death". One page he was flying the Batwing chasing a manbat or whatever and the 2nd page had everyone sitting around like he just died. Every single fucking book had a final crisis lead in cross over with the new human newgods and they all fucking sucked. It was like every single writer in the DCU went on vacation for 3 months for their pointless tie in comic.

The only bright side was having Misfit (what ever happened to her) blow up Granny Goodness and it was hilarious.

Also his religion and its followers are annoying

>>82402630
>Kirkbride comics

that would be so based. I say put him on some Vertigo-style reboot like they did with Kid Eternity.

>>82399574
Your description tells me you didn't bother reading it before criticizing, heck you didn't even bother doing five minutes of research. He doesn't die in R.I.P., he dies in Final Crisis
Also
>wants to make his stories the biggest and most important stories in that character’s history
The only thing he even came close to doing that with was Batman, and even then just the introduction of Damian and the deaths of Damian and Bruce, which only make up 25% of the run at most. For Animal Man, Doom Patrol, and Seven Soldiers there wasn't really any modern competition. Aztek was his own creation, as were the main characters in Multiversity. Flash, JLA, All Star Superman, Action Comics, and Wonder Woman Earth One were great stories but there was nothing in them that was trying to make them "important". Final Crisis was important but of course it was, it was an event comic.

>>82402651
i agree, there's nothing worse than things happening in comics.

>>82402651
That happens with every event comic though. It's the fault of editorial not figuring that shit out far enough in advance, not the writers.

>>82402651
That's how shit happens any time something big happens in any big series.
How many stories stopped cold because Superman died? What about Kyle's introduction, or Blackest Night?

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Is Grant Morrison really considered that complex? I read most of Seven Soldiers and nothing else by him and was able to understand it completely, started on Final Crisis and I still can grasp what is going on. My only problem is that it feels like he jumps back and forth between multiple characters too much.

i think he does come off as pretentious at times, with Final Crisis being the worst offender. i think a lot of his stuff is hit or miss.

the thing is. when he sets his mind on writing more grounded stuff like X-Men or All Star Superman or JLA or Seven Soldiers you can see quite frankly he can shit out god tier capeshit without even trying. he's on a whole different level from guys like Mark Waid or Geoff Johns or Bendis or Millar or Hickman. those guys might write something good or even great every now and then but Morrison is pretty much the only guy who consistently writes superhero comics who is *actually good*. he's part of the small pantheon of Actually Good Comic Book Writers and everyone else has a real hard time keeping up.

>>82402651

oh come on. you can't possibly blame the writer of a big event for other stories having to deal with the big event. that's editorial.

>>82399574
some things work, some don't

seaguy is amazing, so is all-star superman
both are just as "mind-bending" as other stories of his but there's no pretentiousness, just funny and exciting stories

>>82402545
>I always want to ask people who say things like this who their favorite writer is. It would be good for a laff if they'd ever answer truthfully.
Chris Ware

>>82402855
It's a common conception because people who have never read a comic in their life try to read Final Crisis since Batman dies in it, but they don't even know who Darkseid is.

>>82399574
>Damian was supposed to be killed at the end of that story but his fans changed his mind
But he still killed Damien as he intended from the start.
And when did this happen?
After the reboot that you think he caused, even though Batman was mostly the same, and he was still writing for Batman.

>>82399574
Morrison's good when he limits his attempts to go all postmodern and focus on the story. When used effectively, like in Animal Man, it's great. but he goes too far with stuff like Multiversity and his Batman run. I personally think he's a lot better in his non-Big 2 stuff, Seaguy is probably his best. Guys like Moore and Milligan are miles above him though. Morrison at his best is equal to miller at his best.

Congratulations on making the most pleb post of the month and it's only the first night

>>82402855

well Seven Soldiers is one of his easier reads. also one of the best. the main Final Crisis plot with Darkseid and the Anti-Life Equation and such is pretty easy to understand, what really fucks people up is the whole Superman Beyond/Mandrakk thing.

>>82402932
>And when did this happen?
When the boat they were on exploded at the end of the arc. Obviously they weren't really dead, but that could have been Morrison's end with Talia and Damian if he hadn't changed his mind.

>>82402929
>>82403026
So the confusion mostly comes from not knowing who Darkseid is? I mean I know he's not exactly out there to non-comic readers but even the least nerdy of my friends know who Darkseid is

>>82403115

no, dude, read the Superman Beyond issues then read Final Crisis all the way to the end. shit gets confusing.

>>82403115
No, I'm just using that as an example. They need a good amount of knowledge, but they don't even know the simplest stuff like who Darkseid is.

>>82403222
>shit gets confusing
I've never gotten this. How? What is confusing you?
I'm not saying you've got nothing, there's loads of stuff I caught on re-reads, but most of it seemed pretty straight forward to me.

>>82403301
Or I guess better wording would be they might not even know who Darkseid is

>>82403222
I'm reading it via the paperback trade. If I have any questions I'll look them up

>>82402997
>Morrison at his best is equal to miller at his best.
you're a tard if you think that. Morrison and Moore are equals normally, but Morrison's highs far exceed Moore's. Miller at his absolute best MIGHT exceed Morrison at his worst.

>>82403439
>Morrison's highs far exceed Moore's
Morrison has never written anything close to From Hell

In fact Morrison's work outside of DC is very telling of how narrow his strengths are.

>>82403439
>Morrison and Moore are equals normally
I don't know about that, because for Moore, it seems like the creative well dried up a while back.
His good works are really fucking good, but the more he writes, the more his normal becomes shit.

>>82402855
Yeah anybody who has problems with Morrison's mainline cape stuff probably has problems with reading in general. I could see getting confused by stuff like Doom Patrol which intentionally deals with the psyche and nature of reality but if you're confused by "Batman has a kid and they fight ninjas and also a cow is there" you are just plain dumb.

>>82403115
No, it comes from the Mandrakk sub-plot which then evolves into the main plot.

I remember when I first read it I started to discuss it with some friends and they went "Yeah I love it how reality starts tearing itself apart after leading to the GLs needing to impale Mandrakk before all the multiverse collapses on itself". My response was: "Huh?"

>>82403439
Moore's highs are higher than Morrison's, but Morrison has had more highs over all.

>>82403439
>but Morrison's highs far exceed Moore's

i'm a morrison fan but come the fuck on.

>>82403499
New X-Men, Klaus, 18 Days.
That's all I can name off the top of my head unless you call Vertigo not DC.

>>82403439
Jesus fucking christ you're the biggest dumbass of 4chan if you think Morrison is even remotely close to Moore. He's above average AT BEST and his average highpoints are just industry average. Morrison's average stories are industry below average. This is why people hate him so much on /co/. Its like a Bendis or Winnick. Nonstop trolls making threads talking about how great he is but its pretty clear only unread peasants would rate him so highly.

>>82402545
>Then people like Geoff come in and make 10000 new color coded characters or Lobdell comes in and tries to out-edge himself and everything Morrison contributed just gets ignored.

The main reason most of the things Morrison introduces don't stick is because like any writer, you never are interested in everything that the previous writer did and want to have your own spin on things, not do the filler run #48587 where the status quo remains the same. That type of storytelling died once writers stopped doing books for more than couple of years. Plus Morrison is a writer whose writing is so recognizable and iconic that once you have other people using his concepts, they ring false because the characters and ideas are so tied to Grant's style of writing.

>>82403581
I count Vertigo as non DC. By DC work I mean using those characters

So Joe the Barbarian or We3 which are only good for the art by Sean Murphy and Frank Quietly

>>82403527
>for Moore, it seems like the creative well dried up a while back.
I'll agree with that. I was more talking about their entire bodies of work.

>>82403582
>muh /v/ for vendetta!

Epic Win! We are legion!

>>82403617
>Plus Morrison is a writer whose writing is so recognizable and iconic that once you have other people using his concepts, they ring false because the characters and ideas are so tied to Grant's style of writing.
The guy who wrote Final Crisis Aftermath: D.A.N.C.E. fucking nailed it, if you ask me. That fucking ending!

>>82403619
>I count Vertigo as non DC

you're a real dumb fuck you know that?

>>82403619
What about The Invisibles?

>>82403581
Nameless, Annihilator, Happy!, Fantastic Four 1234
I haven't read 18 days but out of the rest I think only New X-men and Klaus are that great.

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>>82403582

Morrison's high points were like 3 good Vertigo series during the 90s. I'll grant that they were really really good series but he's got nothing on Moore because honestly no one does.

>>82403805
Animal Man and Doom Patrol precede Vertigo like Moore Swamp Thing or most of Milligan's Shade the Changing Man

>>82403499
It's pretty ignorant to say "Oh well you can only count this guy's work outside the company he's worked for almost all his career."

>>82403770
18 Days is really fucking good, and I wish they'd print more of it, but in all honesty it's more like "Adapted by Grant Morrison", since he's just retelling stories from the Mahabhrata.

>>82403856

huh, you're right. So does Hellblazer. And James Robinson's Starman isn't really Vertigo either.

still. you know what I mean.

>>82403805
Moore's best years were his UK books and DC stuff, which were good, but the entire rest of his career has been him dragging his feet.

Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow was his last really good story.

>>82403932
>And James Robinson's Starman isn't really Vertigo either.

....how could you even erroneously think that?

>>82403439
>Morrison's highs far exceed Moore's
Morrison has nothing close to the level of From Hell, Miracleman or Swamp Thing.
>Miller at his absolute best MIGHT exceed Morrison at his worst.
Born Again is up there with Animal Man as some of the best cape work ever done. Morrison has not written anything better than it.

It still bothers me that Morrison is considered so great when writers like Joe Casey who is just as good, if not better than him are routinely ignored.

>>82401924
Pfft, Morrison wishes he was cool enough to pilot a mobile suit

>>82404098
What has Joe Casey done that's as good as Morrison's work?

Not being an ass. I'm not familiar with his stuff outside Godland

OFFICIAL LIST OF COMIC WRITERS BETTER THAN MORRISON:
Moore
Milligan
O'Neil
Starlin
Allred
Miller
Mignola
Graham
Clowes
Simonson
Kirby
Busiek
Gaiman
Casey
Ware
Lapham
Sim
Los Bros
Burns
Brown
Parks
Rosa
McKean
Mazzucchelli
Eisner
Pfeiffer
Spiegelman
Gerber
There's probably more I'm forgetting.

>>82399574
Miler, go back to the hospital. You're due for another round of chemo.

>>82404147
Not that anon, but Wildcats, Sex and Automatic Kafka. Casey's not as consistent as Morrison though, he's kind of like Milligan in that aspect.

>>82403439
>Miller at his absolute best MIGHT exceed Morrison at his worst

Just be be clear we're talking about Frank Miller and not Mark Millar right?

Because Frank Miller blows Morrison away by virtue of being a writer and artist. There are barley a handful of writers in comics worth anything

>>82399574
My main problem with him is that his dialogue just isn't that good. That and his storylines being pretty obvious, it's 90% hype with him I feel. He's rarely bad, just never spectacular.

>>82404240
>Born Again
pfffftthhh ahahahaha

>>82404071
>Born Again is up there with Animal Man as some of the best cape work ever done.
am I being trolled here

>>82404342
>There are barley a handful of writers in comics worth anything
This. Frankly Moore is the only one worth a damn because of his heavily detailed scripts. Otherwise, if they don't draw their own shit, they're not worth shit.

>>82404342
>he's not a good pianist but he can do it while balancing a plate on his head

that literally has nothing to do with anything

>>82404394
You're a goddamn moron.

>>82404315

Wait, somebody actually likes Sex? I had to give up at issue six or seven because I couldn't even remember anymore what the story was meant to be.

I do agree that his track record is spotty as fuck, for every good book he has like a dozen that aren't very good.

>>82404394
Yeah most comic writers just failed getting into other mediums. Once Paul Cornell's novel took off he got the hell out of the industry

Gillen came form games Journalism so I guess he moved up

Some people like Remender or Brubaker started out as artists and then just became writers. In the case of Bendis I think Quesada just told him to his face he wasn't a good enough artist for Marvel

>>82404608
>he wasn't a good enough artist for Marvel
yikes. That's like not being a good enough chef for mcdonalds

>>82404240
>Starlin
Lol

>>82403555

A lot of comic book readers are plain dumb. The greatest mistake culture tells us is that nerdy = smart.

>>82405059
Hey The Metamorphosis Odyssey is a fantastic comic. And the Death of Captain Marvel is probably the best death of a superhero story I've ever read

>>82404240
>Allred
STOP RIGHT FUCKING THERE

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Morrison on a good day has few equals, but he can get a bit manic and over-conceptual.
Some of his stuff could have benefited by being reined in from the clouds by a down to earth editor or a fellow artist or writer.

I like Grant Morrison's writing technique. Sometimes I find his metaphysical conversation a little bit boring but, he grounds those concepts into the narrative with interesting results. Even if they amount to magical influence (A Wizard Did It) some of the time.

>>82399939
This is what I believe.

>>82400381
This.

More than anything I think a lot of his comics are telling people to stop being afraid, and to stop using cynicism as a defense mechanism. Perfectly summed up near the end of Flex.

Which is a bit odd considering how absurdly cynical 'the filth' is.

I wonder if this is why his Quentin Quire was so good and realistic. Just some scared kid lashing out and testing his boundaries.

>>82399574
Opinion discarded. Next time you want to criticize Morrison, choose a work you've actually read.

>>82402269
Probably because you're a jojo fag

>>82404697
Bendis once worked at McDonald's

>>82407176
It shows

>>82399574
Are you saying his Batman run wasn't good though?
Like I'm not saying it was flawless but it was pretty fucking good

>>82402855
Yeah I don't get it myself. I've NEVER found Morrison books to be all that hard to read. Maybe they do in fact benefit from multiple re-reads to more completely wrap one's head around what the hell is going on, but that in and of itself doesn't make Morrison's work incomprehensible like some people say it is. I found Seven Soldiers, FC, his Batman run, and ASS, to be all more or less easy to read and understand.

I don't get how some people can read his work and think, "I JUST DON'T GET IT," like it's any criticism of his work when you just need to not be retarded.

>>82407378
>Seven Soldiers, FC, his Batman run, and ASS, to be all more or less easy to read and understand.
Those are all Big 2 books.

Try reading Nameless. I vowed not to read Morrison for two years because of how much that pissed me off.

>>82407378
Even his more metaphysical stuff like the Invisibles isn't super difficult to understand.
He likes to use a lot of crazy sounding words, but the core concepts are pretty simple.

He just really love Golden/early Silver Age of comics. And those times weirdness was the name of the game. And so Morrisons love writing stories that try to capture all that weirdness in a multi issue comic. Sometimes it works so well you wonder why anyone question him. Other times you are just too baffled trying to figure out what is going on and not in a good way.

Another is he love just littering his comics with references of comics that 99% wouldn't get and while that's fun I can see it getting tiresome. The guy loves just showing how big his comic knowledge dick is at times.

>>82407417
>Try reading Nameless.
Maybe I will sometime, thanks.

I just need to read more stuff that aren't from the Big 2 in general.

>>82407429
I think his works are generally very dense and layered but if you don't understand the most basic elements, then you are dumb.

>>82407438
It's ivory tower bullshit, honestly. It's not challenging in a way that you can enjoy, but in a way you have to work to understand his references built off his own personal knowledge. It's a bit selfish, honestly, but he's popular enough to write the books that appeal to him, instead of those that appeal to other people. But enough people respect/idolize him that they see it as their own shortcomings instead of his.

>>82407468
It's 6 issues, but it can really only be enjoyed for the artwork. The story reads like mysticism stolen off a 90s-era geocities page.

>>82407176
Bendis?

>>82407484
>The story reads like mysticism stolen off a 90s-era geocities page.
Well you have me interested.

>>82407378
Whenever I read his work it just seems like artificial nostalgia peppered with ten-dollar words and entry level mysticism, and every couple of panels someone leans over my shoulder, grins and feels very self-satisfied about how clever they are. Either everyone else has shit taste or I just don't get it, and the latter is more likely.

>>82407500
I used to leave satanic symbols hidden in the layers of my photoshopped forum signatures back in 2003 too, but I didn't base a career in comics off that sort of infantile edginess. More power to Morrison, and the Moore-clones it appeals to, but not my cup of tea.

>>82407519
It's entirely possible we're just not wow'd by conspiracy theories or spending too much time trying to imagine the possibilities of the deep web being controlled by elder gods. Some people are into it, but others aren't, I guess.

>>82407534
you in 2003 sounds a lot more fun than you now, you should bring back that guy

>>82403499
His British work is great.

>>82407417
Nameless isn't that difficult to get as a story.

>>82400271
Ewing is just a black Gillen

>>82404342
fuck, Millar's best is better than some of Morrison's.
Millar's Superman>

Happy Hypercrisis Day, /co/

>>82399885
Help I'm being trolled>>82399939

>>82407868
This.

Ewing is fucking terrible in my experience.

>>82404342
Miller was great, Miller was influential, but he was not the best writer and even at his best his art wasn't mind blowing. He had style, he had vision, he had a lot of things, but he is not the god that you think he is.

>>82402545
There's nothing weird about that opinion. Some writers are "idea writers" and don't have much of anything else going for them. Morrison happens to be one of them.

>>82402137
not at all, Morrowinds lore is actually good

>>82407914
Red son is mediocre. Though adventures was good, it's no ASS.

>>82400047
Fuck you, this shit pisses me off. He isnt doing it to look smarrt! He's doing it because that is tue stuff he is interested in. Like morrison or hate him, he isnt writing stories for everyone else, he is writing the story he wants to read.

>>82408041
>What is storytelling
Morrison is one of the best storytellers in cape fiction. Storytelling in animal man, SS, Batman and some of his multiversity one shots was some of the best in the genre. Name atleast five cape writers who can nail endings better.

>>82408183
morrisonfags are going all out I see

>I didn't understand it at all thats what makes it truly great and amazing!

>You don't like it? Thats because you're too dumb to understand it

every god damn day

>>82408183
Ostrander, DeMatteis, Prime Miller, Moore and Gaiman.

>>82399574
I think guys like Gerard Way and Peter Milligan are hundred times better writers than Grant Morrison. Morrison lacks originality and keeps rehashing his old shit.

You won't understand Morrison until you masturbate on Moore's doorstep.

>>82401794
He's not insulting your tastes, NA is by Ewing. He's just showing that the guy can manage to bring a solid fistfight.

>>82408470
Milligan is too unpredictable to truly be good. He's got some really good stuff, and some real shite.

>>82408470
I think he had good ideas back in the 90s-early 2000s. But yeah now it's stale rehash of the same idea. Still his stuff was good. Cyber punk had it's place then.

>>82399574
No he doesn't have an ego problem. He just wants to do actually interesting things with these characters. Cause to people who actually read things outside of cape comics there's nothing really interesting about another super slug fest. The criticism that he references other ideas and works to appear more complex really shows your shallowness. That's not some ego move on Grants part it's a standard device in literature to reference other literature.
The confusion comes from the fact that he's one of like three big comics book writers who actually cares about the wider context of literature but unlike Gaiman and Moore he still actually likes the concept of superheroes and all that could be done with it if more of the writers in the field weren't halfwits who only read other comics. As such he makes comics too weird for most cape fans but too niche cape to hit the mainstream like Watchmen or Sandman. So he ends up with a cult following.

>>82408442
His fans don't think he's amazing because they think it doesn't make sense, it's because they can make sense of his stories and appreciate them for that.

And sometimes the detractors are too dumb to understand it.

It's one group that can see the goddamned sailboat, and another that just gets angry when they can't.

>>82402879
Nailed it

His writing is all over the place and he can't write a well structured story. Just read his book Supergods and you'll notice how he loses thought in mid-sentence and starts writing about something completely different.

>>82403619
>Joe the Barbarian
>only good for the art
Get out.

>>82407519
>Whenever I read his work it just seems like artificial nostalgia
Nah, Morrison has a genuine appreciation for the Silver-Age and seems to be one of the few writers who can write Silver-Age concepts and sensibilities in a modern context. Seriously, he's probably the only writer that I can think of that can deliver that sort of innocent, 'anything can happen' sense of wonder that cape comics used to have. Just read some issues of The Multiversity, like Thunderworld or the Guidebook. He just 'gets' it.

It helps that it's not really the only thing he's capable of either. Actually if anything, even though he's definitely known for writing a specific kind of story, he's got pretty decent or even good range when he really wants to show it.

>>82408588
>His fans like him because they can appreciate his work

>His haters don't like him because they're too dumb to see anything

Oh I see now thanks for your insight good sir *tips trilby

>>82408748
That seems to be the most recurring complaint, that the people who don't like him can't make heads or tails of his stories.
Meanwhile, the Hypercrisisfags aren't pulling that stuff completely out of their asses.

Granted, some of it can be accounted to personal taste, like the people that just don't like the multiversial stuff.

>>82408748
As a morrisonfag I hate when people pull the 'haters are too dumb to get it' card.
It's not a matter of intelligence, there's plenty of range in both sides of this fence, is just an opinion on literature. Some people love the stories as puzzles approach. They like it when a story has hidden layers that take effort to decipher.
Other people fundamentally reject it as being against the rules of good storytelling that say the reader should always know all that's going on.

I love puzzle stories (I think Grant calls it ergodic literature). That's why I love Morrison comics and the books of Gene Wolfe and Fez is my favorite game. But it's not for everyone.

This also why the Moore comparisons are so contentious this thread. Because Moore works off many of the same ideas as Morrison and writes often even more complex fiction but he never takes the ergodic approach, his stories are always straight forward and presented clearly and 'fairly.'

But, to me there's just something magical about the puzzle box method. The way almost everytime I open Batman RIP I feel like I discover something new. The feeling of depths hidden inside a story. Like I would have to say that Moore's Swamp Thing is the better story, probably better than anything Morrison has ever done, but I've read it once and feel no compelling urge to do so again. Years from now I'll probably go through it again to refresh my memory and enjoy it, but there's nothing in there that I haven't already experienced. A lot of Morrison's stuff almost feels like a new story every time I open it.

>>82399574
what a gross generalization

>>82409058
I'd been rather annoyed at Morrisonfans for years but you're the first person who actually articulated why they liked Morrison in such a way that made me "see the light" so to speak.

I'm still not a fan of his stuff, but at least his fans seem a bit more human and less like a creepy cult.

>>82409058
Moore knows how the story will end when he starts writing. Morrison doesn't and that shows in his writing. He plants small details in the story that don't make any sense until he gets stuck in his writing and then he can make sense to some of them. The writers of LOST TV show used a similar technique. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Most of the time it doesn't, but stuff like ASS, Animal Man and Doom Patrol are still good. But all of his stories have weak endings to them and feel just fucking weird to read. But I guess it's a matter of taste.

>>82408689
>Nah, Morrison has a genuine appreciation for the Silver-Age
He seems like the kind of person who read Silver Age covers and assumed that the stories inside were exactly the same rather than marketing gimmicks forced on the writers. And, to be fair, the comics inside were often very imaginative and outlandish compared to today's comics, but crazy stuff wasn't happening at all times for no reason. It's like the difference between actual Loony Tunes and the parodies of it years later, where "cartoony" became synonymous with "zany" and without logic while the original shorts ran on an exaggerated internal logic. It feels extremely artificial.

>>82409151
I think you underestimate Morrison. Even at his worst he's leagues better than Lost writers.
Read Batman RIP again and the signs that Dr Hurt is in thrall to an evil diety that's haunted the Wayne's and Gotham for years are everywhere. I like to think Morrison knew from the start that it would be Darkseid (a fragment of him at least) because he must have known fairly far in advance that he was getting the keys to the kingdom in the job of architecting the next big Crisis. But maybe he didn't. He said in interviews that his big idea he came up with when first given the Batman gig was Batman versus the Devil. So maybe he was just running with that and getting to tie it into Final Crisis and Darkseid was just good luck.
Either way the only important thing is that by the end of B&R/ReturnOfBruce he really did tie everything together into one coherent plot and if you read it again you'll see that.
Unfortunately he wasn't able to do the same with Batman Inc but that's only half his fault. There's only so much you can do when the universe you're working in is being pulled down around you. He ain't Superman.

>>82409161
>but crazy stuff wasn't happening at all times for no reason.
Neither are they happening for no reason in Morrison's works either.

Hell, if anything, a lot of the crazy shit that happens in has some symbolic or meta value. There's a lot there if you analyze it. And nothing really happens without a reason either.

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>>82409407

>>82409141
I'm glad!
I also feel like most Morrison haters only read Final Crisis and some of his Batman run. Which if you're not going in a Morrison fan I can totally see why it would be off-putting. I wish more people would read his JLA run from the 90s. That was really Morrison firing on all cylinders without going overboard. It also completely revitalized the Justice League concept from its 80s atrophy (as much as I love JLI there's something sad about an idea as powerful as the Justice League being reduced to buddy cop adventures). Without Morrison's run we never would have had the DCAU Justice League, which means most of DCs current fans probably wouldn't even exist. Myself included.

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Morrison in his own words.

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>>82409603

>>82409420
>Neither are they happening for no reason in Morrison's works either.
They are instead happening constantly for "cosmic" or meta reasons which is essentially the same thing but with more pretense. He still emulating or tributing to a writing style that never actually existed.

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>>82409616

>>82409549
To add to that. I also feel like a lot of the Final Crisis backlash was because it wasn't what people wanted it to be. But that's because honestly what they wanted it to be was exactly what he already did back in the 90s. I mean he ended his JL run with the entire population of Earth being given temporary super powers to fight off a sentient planet sized ultra weapon left over from the war that destroyed the previous universe. How do you top that? You gotta get weirder, and you end up with Final Crisis.

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>>82409630

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>>82409650

Even though the original Crisis is pretty far out in terms of storytelling, the crisis "brand name" suggests a certain measure of accessibility.

I like it well enough, but I prefer Morrison's smaller scale and more intimate work.

>>82409694
>>82409630
>>82409616
>>82409603
these are great

>>82409630
DUDE

>>82399574
>muh strong man on spandex so inspirational is a self-fellatio for the industry
This.
Man, seriously. If superheroes were the modern myths casuals wouldn't be so prevalent. Superman and Batman and other popular pajama men are pop culture icons, nothing more, nothing less.

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>>82409721

>>82409630
>And I went in and shat on all of it.

Haha.

>>82409616
God, if nothing else you have to admit that the man has a near superhuman knack for pinpointing the appeal of any long lived character.

I remember hearing a talk of his where he talked about Jesus in the same way. Elaborating on the inherent power of the story. God came to us as a person and we nailed him to a bit of wood. That contrast between the earthiness and the divine. It's powerful stuff.

>>82401986
>He's talented and spergs with bad taste shit on him to fell better about liking trash
Dunno about Morrison but Araki is shit. Asspulls, bad art, terrible characterization. It feels like some hyperactive 7 year old writing a story. As entertaining as it is, it's so fucking alien and stupid.

>>82408183
Compare his plot structures to Moore's and it makes him look like an amateur. His endings are actually usually weak. All Star Superman feel apart in the latter half of the final issue. The ONLY genuinely great ending in any of his runs was Animal Man.

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>>82409831
>All Star Superman fell apart in the latter half of the final issue

wut

>>82409831
Isn't he supposed to have done the ending to Red Son? I can believe it, everything after Lex's note and braniac is very Morrsion, but its really out of place from the rest of the book and honestly the weakest part of the story.

>>82408470
>Gerard Way

This is the worst "opinion" ever posted on /co/.

>>82400235
>art should be pictures of things I recognize
As a BFA major, I constantly go to museums and I mentally criticize things depending on how easy I know in practical terms they were to execute. Not that art (whether it be written, painted or filmed, etc., etc.) requires set, but simply throwing an idea on a piece of paper (or simply filming it or sculpting) with a pen, typewriter or paint is not what creates either lasting art or art that has meaning.

Morrison has very detailed scripts and seems to work well with artist and has a vision. You may not appreciate it or enjoy/understand it, but his work will certainly last and it definitely has meaning, the way that is defined in art criticism of any sort, and in survey/study courses on art.

>>82409891
To be fair ASS only works best if you've already read DC One Million and know that the golden Superman that visits young Clark is himself from the distant future after he comes out of the Sun and uses his now near omnipotent powers to bring Lois Lane and Krypton back to life.

>>82409721
He should have made it more accessible it's true. But basically he took the Crisis idea and did what he always does, stretched that idea to its limits. I still like it quite a bit for what it is. Definitely not his best though.

>>82410041

The ending of Red Son where Krypton was revealed to be a future earth all along was Morrison's.

Millar lifted it from their shared Superman 2000 pitch. I highly recommend googling that. Could have changed Superman for the 21st century instead of the anguished bullshit we have to put up with today.

>>82401905

Sounds like Will Smith.

In every Will Smith role, I never see the character. I see WS pretending to be someone else.

>>82410656
>The ending of Red Son where Krypton was revealed to be a future earth all along was Morrison's.
And it was easily the worst part of the comic, completely inconsistent with the rest of the story minus the fact that Luthor's earth becomes everything he said Superman woukd cause it to.

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>>82399574
>mfw I understand Morrison comics, especially after a couple of beautiful rereads

>>82401905
I like his dialogue but sometimes it sounds more like him coming up with a good line or idiom that wouldn't necessarily make sense as a line of dialogue that people would actually say, but would make better sense as a sort of well-known saying or something. You know what I mean?

Sometimes he's spot on with his dialogue though, sometimes it's perfect. Sometimes it's just ridiculous.

>>82410740
>And it was easily the worst part of the comic,

Which isn't saying much because of how great every part is.

>completely inconsistent with the rest of the story minus the fact that Luthor's earth becomes everything he said Superman would cause it to.

Red Son is as much about Luthor as Superman.

>>82399574
I honestly find that he's hit or miss.

I very much enjoyed Seven Soldiers, All-Star, and Doom Patrol. His X-Men run had some interesting stuff but was ultimately fragmented and underfleshed and very rushed toward the end.

The more Morrison I read, the less I enjoy him, probably because I felt like I was often reading the same story over and over, with many of the same characters. He treads the same themes over and over, mostly the same way each time, and, for the most part, I don't think he often finds a character's voice - most of his characters are mouthpieces for him, with some really rare exceptions like his Emma Frost, who I'm guessing is so great because Morrison (like any other middle class English white boy with pretensions of working class glory) has actually met people like her.

I feel like a lot of what Morrison has to say is very shallow, and, in a lot of his comics, that's all that really matters, as the characters are just mouthpieces for this. Honestly, I'm not sure whether Morrison himself understands why he thinks the things he discusses endlessly are important, if he even does. His comics are not hard to understand, there's just not much there that's interesting once you peel away the striking imagery he brings out in his artists (this, by the way, is one of his best qualities, imo. He gives artists really cool, fun shit to draw, and that's great).

I'd like to see more stuff like Doom Patrol from him. I feel like somewhere, he got too swept up in the meta and forgot that heartfelt, naturally progressing, memorable characters are what make a story.

I also find his understanding of mythology juvenile. He's one of those skinny-dipper mythologist cape writers who love to talk about stuff they've clearly got no true depth of knowledge of. But that's not really a mark against his writing most of the time, even if his views clearly influence him. It's just something he talks about often that I find absolutely cringeworthy to listen to.

>>82407438
This.
The man loves comics and it shows. Typically people who I know that don't like Morrison just don't like thinking or making the effort to connect his stories to their source material.
If it weren't for Morrison, I would have never read O'Neil. I might not have read the Fourth World Omnibi.
A lot of his works have drastically changed the way I think and I appreciate him for that.

>>82410379
The beauty of it, at least to me, is that the story still works if you haven't read DC One Million. And, if you finish ASS and look for where some of the ideas in it came from, the story feels even richer.

>>82399574
>dis nigga never read JLA

>>82405164
My fucking mugga. Everybody just associates Starlin with Thanos and Infinity Gauntlet.

>>82404240
Ostrander for sure.

>>82412478
Oh, and Erika Fuchs, of course.

>>82404240
>milligan

nah

>>82400171

Plutarch was here. Greeks are a shit. And one spiraling ever downward until there was nothing left but a graveyard for the Romans.

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>>82412940
>he doesn't like Ovid

>>82404342

Miller is great at constructing shots, but outside of a few particular runs where his style fits, he should have an artist on call at all times

>>82399574
>Having a problem with Bat-Mite

You are entitled with your opinion, here's mine about you:
You are a faggot.

>>82408131

Red Son was fantastic. I'd call it the height of Millar's work and one of the better Superman stories out there.

>>82408501

Eh. I'd rather have a writer who's work I either love or hate than a writer who frequently writes stories that just make me say "Oh. Okay."

>>82400302
>GRRM
you brought him up, closet fan?

>>82400222
I agree with your core criticism, but his actual stories are damn solid.

>>82399574
tl;dr
you couldn't possibly claim that multiversity is anything short of genius

>>82399574
>He's perfect for antisocial nerds with unwarranted self-importance, the audience who buy and review capes comics

Did you read Multiversity or Flex Mentallo? He's actively trying to get people to stop reading comics

>>82404240
Agreed

God, I hate morrison

>>82417340

No, the point is don't pour all of your life into comics, or movies, or video games. Branch out and be social.

>>82409630
Thanks for reminding me why Morrison is a hack.
He wrote the worst magneto ever. Even Austen was better.

>>82405456
Allred's Madman >>>>> crap >>> morrison

>>82408468
All have written great endings, but except some of Moore's work, none of them can write endings better and out of the box than Morrison.

>>82408631
Books and comics are completely different mediums. Comics give a better handle over switching time and place.
Many would consider it one of Morrison's strength.

>>82418430
Personally, I prefer the endings to Suicide Squad, WIllWorld, TDKR and Façade, respectively, to pretty much any ending Morrison's done but to each his own.

>>82409831
Doom Patrol and invisibles have great endings as well, and became better as the run went on.

>>82418542
I liked the ending to his Spectre better and TDKR reduced in quality as it went on imo(It was still great though). Ennis and Moore's better works have some of the best endings for me, along with Morrison.

>>82409549
>I wish more people would read his JLA run from the 90s
My nyakkuh. Should be required reading for /co/ desu

>>82418430
Morrison is terrible at endings. Animal Man was fine until he showed up as God

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>>82409616
based

>>82399885
I think Dune totally still holds up

>>82409616
I try to believe it's an act, but shit like that King Mob bit has me honestly concerned for Morrison. One of these days the hypercrisis is going to kill him.

>>82418049
Honestly, not to sound like too much of a cultist, but I feel like what Morrison did with Magneto was perfect and really turned me around on the character and made me reevaluate some other characters as well.
Cause ignore the drug addiction thing and what did Morrison do? All he did was give Magneto exactly what he wanted and as soon as you do that you realize that there's nothing cool about Magneto, he's just another racist old man. He's a Pol Pot, a Robespierre, a Hitler. No amount of tragic backstory makes any of that okay.
It made me realize how much comic book fandom revolves around the villains and how kind of fucked up that is. This whole culture of how the story is only as cool as the villain and all the people who think a good villain will always be a more compelling character than the hero. There's nothing interesting about being a villain, the world is filled to the brim with Magnetos and Osbornes and even some Jokers. Thats the easy thing to do. But the heroes we don't have so much of in life and for the reason that to see the shit that's wrong in the world and truly confront it and try to change things and help people is fucking hard and a near impossible struggle and makes writing a believable hero very difficult which is why when done well theres no character more interesting than a hero.

>>82407097
I used to be a JoJofag, and I hate JoJo fags, and I know Morrisonfags and they aren't as bad as JoJofags.

>>82409792
>''I have shit taste'' the post

>>82408588
There's a third group that claims to see the sailboat and thinks it's stupid

I like a lot of Morrison's stories, but I really hate his dialogue sometimes. Like it will suddenly feel like people are just monologuing and not really listening to or processing what anyone else is saying around them.


Also can someone explain to me why everyone is do dumb and terrible in All Star Superman? Like Jimmy's girlfriend has no understanding of his job or patience for what he does and is awful to him. Lois is given super powers by Superman and suddenly starts flirting with the Super Bros and makes Superman fight for her affection. Who does that? And when the bizarros invade, why does no one notice that these monster people are in their party? They just try and get them to join the party and shit at first.

>>82420823
I must confess that I love monologue style dialogue. I know it's poor writing, but I really like it.

As for the second question, it's because it's modelled after silver-age bullshit.

>>82408495
Ah fair enough.

>>82420736
I think that's only because JoJo is more popular among more boards than Morrison is.

>>82420871
monologues have their place, but when everyone in the room is monologuing and not actually talking to each other it really throws me out of the story

>>82420823
>Lois is given super powers by Superman and suddenly starts flirting with the Super Bros and makes Superman fight for her affection. Who does that?
Lois does, she's practically a psychopath in the old comics.

>And when the bizarros invade, why does no one notice that these monster people are in their party? They just try and get them to join the party and shit at first.
No reason to be rude to people just cause they're a little grey, sheesh.

I like Morrison's stuff but it is so flawed in way too many respects and his constant need for "mature elements" gave birth to one of the worst trends in the comic book industry.

>>82420948
>No reason to be rude to people just cause they're a little grey, sheesh.

well this is the DC universe, so you got a point

>>82420823
>Also can someone explain to me why everyone is do dumb and terrible in All Star Superman?
Silver age, anon. It was how things were in silver age.
Morrison may not be the best in writing realistic dialogues and may not be the best in characterisation, but his cape comics are intentionally written to be cheesy. Morrison has never shied away from moustache twirling villains and comic book cheese.

>>82409694
>Moon Knight
>Just a Batman knockoff

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>>82421039
>Morrison may not be the best in writing realistic dialogues and may not be the best in characterisation, but his cape comics are intentionally written to be cheesy.

>Grant Morrison is one of those writers that I simply do not understand. His works are constantly praised and labeled as "genius" by his fans while criticisms are brushed away with excuses like "you just don’t get it."

It's simple.

Cape comics are a joke. Terrible writing, bland house style art, continuity clusterfucks, etc.

The rest of the world sees this (just look at actual cape comic sales), but cape fans are desperate to have their comics legitimized and taken seriously.

Morrison gives them what they want spouting how high-minded and spiritual and significant capes are as symbols, and all of his other garbage.

He gives manchildren validation that their childish hobby is something more.

>>82421184
The idea is that realism isn't inherently good or smart. It can be, but there are other ways to achieve the end goal of entertaining and engaging fiction.

>>82421184
Cheesy=/=terrible
His all star Superman was supposed to be a homage to silver age. If you've read silver age Superman, most characters in ASS are pretty much in character.
Cape comics have always been full of cheese. If realistic portrayal is what you want, Snyderverse or Nolanverse is what you should look forward to.

If I want to start following Heavy Metal now that Morrison is editor in chief, which issue should I start with?

>>82402879
>quite frankly
that put a smirk on my face

>>82403805
>i'll grant
CARLOOOOOS

>>82421501
Probably the one he's the editor of

>>82421205

So I guess you're here for the cartoons, not the comic books?

Batman didn't even die in RIP

>>82409058
I second this. I remember being a 16-year-old newbie and losing my shit at how maniacally complex Batman RIP was, making it larger and realer than real life. A Serious House on Serious Earth was just frustrating to me tho. Hope I can appreciate it one day.

>>82400636
My main boards have always been /lit/ and /co/, and since we're in a Morrison thread, you should pay more attention to his comics, he constantly namedrops authors and artists he likes.

Also, Pynchon, one of /lit/'s biggest memes (and one of my favourite writers) is a huge influence on Alan Moore, who pretty much copied the narrative structure of V. while doing V for Vendetta (V even shows up reading V., actually).

From the 70s onwards, there's been plenty of well read authors who constantly recommend or give hints to other authors in their books, so, it shouldn't be that strange that there's an overlap on /lit/ and /co/.


>>82400670
>nobody likes Pynchon and Faulkner, arguably the greatest american modernist and the posterboy for post-modernism

get rekt pleb

>>82402306
There is no /a/ Kirby, like there is no /co/ Tezuka, these men were universes on their own, their work is too vast and good for any just comparison (beyond the one I just made kek)

>>82402924
you're doing this on purpose

>>82403439
They are completely different storytellers, fampai, and while I do prefer Moore, Morrison's way more consistent than any of them

>>82405456
HOLY SHIT HAS /co/ really gone that low? Allred is one of the greatest comic artists alive, a great writer and also a bro with god tier taste for music and guitars

>>82409151
I think sometimes he does write with an ending in his mind, and sometimes he doesn't. His Doom Patrol seems to be written with a fixed ending, while stuff animal man and JLA doesn't. It shows in the writing. But he does clearly write with future plots in his mind.

>>82422187

I'm here for both.

I enjoy good comics written by good writers like Neil Geiman or Alan Moore. Or good artists like Will Eisner, Moebius, James Stokoe, or Dave Sim. Or even stuff that's just fun like Bone, Empowered, and any number of webcomics (Unsounded is my current favorite).

Morrison and his fans like to pretend he's part of that Moore-tier upper echelon, but he's really, really not.

>>82407484
Dude, Morrison isn't coming at you with some heideggerian hermetic shit, most of the time you can just wiki his more grandiloquent ideas and go on with it.

I don't know how insular /co/'s knowledge is, but honestly, knowing how much you niggers do about comics, just a quick skim on counter-culture, post-leftism, modern occultism, early rave and psychedelic culture should be enough to understand pretty much anything by Morrison.

>>82407534
You sound like you were a regular guy with some cool interests who finally got himself a ubernormie 5/10 soccer mom gf and is trying to sound adult by denying anything non-WASP, tbqh

>>82408009
I feel comic fans, knowing shit about anything that's not published by Marvel, DC or CBR sees people praising Miller, read his stuff and think his main appeal are his ideas, never realizing his main thing is that he's one of (if not the) greatest stylist to ever write comics. Even in his subpar, recent work, he's still good at this.

>>82408470
Way and Milligan are both Morrison lite tbqh. Milligan could be better if he didn't write so much shit along with his genuinely good work

>>82422584
>There is no /a/ Kirby, like there is no /co/ Tezuka, these men were universes on their own, their work is too vast and good for any just comparison (beyond the one I just made kek)

Honestly pretty accurate desu

File: Batman and Robin 1.jpg (417KB, 1386x2116px) Image search: [Google]

417KB, 1386x2116px

>>82422697
>Morrison and his fans like to pretend he's part of that Moore-tier upper echelon, but he's really, really not.

We'll have to agree to disagree then..

>>82409831
Morrison himself praises Moore structuring and says it's not the kind of thing he wants to do in Supergods.

Even then, he did Pax Americana

>>82410215
You're a BFA major and yet you seem to have failed to understand Danto, Benjamin, Belting and pretty much every thinker in the last 50 years.

Art isn't a slave to technique any more, and it hasn't been since the 60s (at least)

>>82412991
Ovid was roman, m8

>>82423106
Is there a better single history text of comic books than Supergods? I spent a semester just reading all the academic books my University library had on them, and it was distinctly the most comprehensive, even with the trippy biography bullshit.

>>82420472
Morrison spells that shit out in every comic he writes and yet people keep on being edgy, I'll never understand why

>>82420823
>>82420871
While his monologue style might come off as bad, it works within his idea of comics as modern day mythology, just go and read greek tragedies and you'll see that's standard form.

It's like people who criticize Tolkien without realizing his "bad writing" is every bit as intended to sound like a mix between a explorer's report and old sagas

>>82420990
But he didn't start that. If anything, he was one of the first people to rally against it, with his JLA

>>82422697
entry level "i like sequential narrative, not comic books mom" taste tbqh

>>82423224
Yeah, people often argue against Morrison's rants or biographic bits but they make you understand comics so much better and widely.

I think you could argue other comic writers are doing a more traditional, historiographic thing while Morrison is going full Warburg / costume history, showing how these comics, as outcast as they were, are happening along our lives and the people who write them aren't just names on papers, but outsiders wiriting their troubles away in pulp form.

one of my favourite books tbqh

>>82423628
Even when it's intentional bad techniques often lead to bad writing. First person narratives are rarely good books, and monologuing in comics is tough to do well. I think Morrison gets it right more often than most, but the only reason I personally always like it is that I like monologues. Guess that's what I get for majoring in Theatre.

>>82424062
Yeah, I just don't think Morrison's block-speaking is bad. Also, a lot of first person books are great, I'm reading two right now and both are very good (Zeno's Conscience and Temple of the Golden Pavillion, fyi)

>>82399574
>I-I really do get it guys, pls believe me.

>>82399861
samefag

>>82424062
>first person narratives are rarely good books
Is this a thing people think? I've never heard that. There's tons of first person classics, Great Gatsby, To Kill A Mockingbird, The Catcher in the Rye, American Psycho

>>82425535
Yeah, none of these are that good tbqh, mostly american centered, high school tier stuff.

You're not wrong in thinking first person books can be good, though

>>82425535
And there are significantly more that are absolutely terrible. It's a crutch that a lot of inexperienced writers use to cover up their lack of skill by playing it off as casual speech.

>>82425665
A writing technique can be awful when misused, therefore it's a bad technique.

>>82425765
Like I initially said, it's more often bad than good, and even good writers will fuck up sometimes when they use it. Usually better to avoid, unless you have a really specific reason for using it.

"Grant Morrison is one of those writers that I simply do not understand."

answered the question yourself

>>82421501
issue 280 it just arrived in my mailbox today

>>82399574
>meme thread
>283 replies

>>82423165
I didn't specifically discuss techniques, I gave an example of someone in a field for which I myself am both technically proficient in and find myself employed in, is simply executing an idea with a technique than I may find either poor in execution, lacking, simplistic, etc. In that regard, I may question it, but but that doesn't mean that others might not find some worth in it.

Slave to technique is also not what I am discussing. Simply having an idea isn't sufficient to create art, art does involve talent and skill, and ideas alone are not representative of artistic talent, per se, absent the ability to express it, much less express the artistic impulse/idea.

Snyder is a poor example because very few people, even those who enjoyed the movies, are every really going to call him artistic, but he's a good example that an idea, even executed with some success (although, again, he's a poor example since much of the criticism waged against him in critical forums is based on plot, pacing, editing, e.g. technique as you would call it) but an idea with poor execution is not all it takes to create art.

>>82409058
Moore does the "puzzle box" thing far better than Morrison, he's just a lot more subtle with it. Coincidentally, kinda like Gene wolfe. Morrison is more like China Mieville, he's a lot more in-your-face with his weirdness and there's not as much depth as you initially perceive. You'll glean far more from From Hell through repeated readings than anything Morrison has written.

>>82410215
This mentality is why most BFA majors are dumb as shit. Something being difficult to execute is not the key to good art.
>simply throwing an idea on a piece of paper (or simply filming it or sculpting) with a pen, typewriter or paint is not what creates either lasting art or art that has meaning.
That's literally what Pollock did and the man is considered one of the greatest artists of the past century, with maybe only Picasso above him in terms of recognition.

>>82422187
>cape comic books are the only type of comic books that exist
Kill yourself holy

>>82424062
>>82425665
>>82425894
Nigga have you even read Nabakov or Faulkner or Joyce? The fuck are you on about.

>>82431481
The only Joyce I've read were his letters to his wife.

>>82399574
I really like the Invisibles and Nameless, not into cape comics at all really.
Morrison seems to be able to take some weird shit and make it weirder, yet keep it coherent.
Unwarranted self aggrandizing elitist here, I guess.

>>82429199

https://desustorage.org/co/thread/81924418/#81926448

>It's only postmodern in that these feels-cultists are too stupid to understand what they're actually saying and so use it with reckless abandon.

>We've known taste is subjective since Plato. No fucking shit everyone doesn't like the same things, that doesn't preclude arguments or statements made about those things from being true or discussed. Claiming "It's subjective so we can't talk about it!" is the mark of a profoundly stupid person.

>Postmodernism metastasized into its current form with that fuckwit Jackson Pollock and it's my life's work to buy every last one of his originals and burn them. Fuck abstractivism and ambiguism.

>>82431481
Each of whom wrote in first person with a very specific reason to do so. Nabokov especially used the format very well with Lolita and Pale Fire. That doesn't mean it isn't usually a crutch. There's no tool in writing that's inherently bad, but you still try to keep the inexperienced away from crutches, and call out the experienced when they fuck up on something they should have known better about.

>>82422697
Gaiman had one really good buck and a bunch of middling crap. Moore has literally not been good since his DC days.

>>82407438
This. Morrison writes about the genre he's chosen to write inside, from inside.

>>82407499
The Bendis.

>>82404240
You forgot Byrne for the full troll effect.

>>82420472
>he's just another racist old man
That's not the problem you dumbass, the problem was that he assumed that after he reached his goals everyone else would rise to it. His glory was reliant on others and when it didn't pan out it was a dissapointing plateau. Only a college age liberal would find that specific issue in his methods or results.

>>82433095
so wrong man, Providence is amazing. And Moore has a huge catalogue of great work before and after DC. In fact he really only has two flat out bad comics, Lost Girls (which Gaiman really loves so who knows) and The Necronomicon.


Gaiman also has more than one good book, I mean all of Sandman is gold, Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader? is really good, and I like American Gods (though its pretty in your face with its message).

>>82433166
Brian Michael Bendis? The Writer?