>As Superman is saving the girl from the burning building

>>82292927
Thank you, Anon of Above-Hack level Scriptwriting!

>>82292927
Add
>Superman occasionally smiles reassuringly at the people he saves

Then you're pretty good.

>>82292927
But that would break the unapproachable, messiah, >I AM JESUS
thing Zack wants.

>>82293035
This.

OP is a fucking autist.

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>>82292927
>At the Capitol Building.

"Senator, I have come to believe that those with the power to do good have a moral obligation to do good. I did not ask for the great power that your world's sun gives me, but I believe that it would be irresponsible to not use it to save lives where I can."

>Senator: "That's all well and good, sir. But what are we supposed to do when your actions cause more destruction? What happens when we get a repeat of what happened in Africa? We did not ask for you."

"...listen for a moment, senator. Just listen."

>Senator: "I...I don't hear anything."

"I hear everything. Every day of my life I have heard people crying out for help, for a savior. I'm not a god, I'm just a man. I'm trying to do the best I can, but I'm just a man. I'm not all-powerful. I can't save everyone. Sometimes I make mistakes. That's a burden I have to live with."

>Senator: "That's all well and good, sir, but the issue is that when a person of your power makes mistakes, those mistakes reverberate far beyond what any normal person - "
>Senatorial aid: [whispering ]"Uh, excuse me, senator, this arrived for you, it's very urgent..." [hands a box]
>Senator: [opens box, jar of piss, scene proceeds as normal]

TA-DA~!

>>82292927
does anyone else laugh every time they see that guy's mug?

>>82293149
I'd rather be an autist then a hack.

I'd rather understand Superman as a character rather than see him as simply someone who can punch really really hard.

Or you know, just not making Superman a socially awkward autist.

>>82293149

I can't post an image of people laughing at you so please use your imagination to picture people laughing at you.

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>>82293239
Hang on, I got you covered.

>>82293149
Pic related.

>>82293035
But Jesus was approachable. He rolled around with twelve bros and spent his time with the poor and the sick.

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>>82293297
Not to mention he spent a lot of time talking to just regular people. Sermon on the mount much?

>>82293156
>jar of piss

Please no

>>82293149
Hi Zach

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>>82292927

>>82293297
>Justice League confirmed for 12 members and one of them as a traitor

Nice one.

>>82292927

chris just let it go man

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>>82293156
Nice

Replace Jesse with Clancy and you've basically fixed lex. But get rid of the "God is not all powerful if he's all good" speech with a "I see you as the end of human achievement" speech.

>>82293377

That jar is integral to his scheme, you philistine!

>>82293644
Or better till have Lex have some plan that is entirely unrelated to Superman and he's only taking out Superman because he knows that he's the greatest threat to that plan.

Then over the course of several movies you gradually have Lex morph into someone who hates Superman enough to plan specifically for his demise, rather than having Superman simply be an incidental speed bump.

>>82293149
Are you actually serious m8?

>>82293754
How?

>>82293579
I think an important thing in that scene would be to show Senator whatshername as have legitimate and good concerns. Superman can have his speech but she should have an intelligent rebuttal, and the goal is to make it seem like there was actually a good debate or discussion about to happen until Lex bombs the place.

Though as important as that is, more important is just giving Superman a chance to speak, damnit.

>>82293766
>Or better till have Lex have some plan that is entirely unrelated to Superman and he's only taking out Superman because he knows that he's the greatest threat to that plan.

Eh. That would be like Hackman's Lex and that was kinda weak.

>>82293903
The thing is that Lex in this movie has no particular reason to obsess over Superman yet. In fact he's only benefited from his presence thus far.

The obsession needs to grow over time, not be there from the start. Of course, Lex needs to be a fundamentally different character, too.

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>>82293939
Regale us with the true meaning of cape movies, then, Anon.

>>82293156
>"Senator, I have come to be-
>BOOM!

>>82292927
>>82293156
Sasuga random guy on 4chan. Better writer than Goyer

>>82293156
Based

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>>82293156
>getting a package during a hearing
>"its urgent"

Literally as bad as "tell that to Zodds neck".

>>82293156
Followed up with

>Superman:Wait....I hear something. EVERYONE OUT NOW!

And KA-BOOM!

TELL THAT ZOD'S SNAPPED DICK

>>82294061
I'm assuming he's writing with the idea that the pee scene still needs to happen in some way instead of cutting it out entirely

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>>82292927
>It's going to be okay
>Are you alright?
>You're going to be alright

bravo

>>82294246
But it should be cut out entirely

>>82294061
Look, I don't actually *like* the jar of piss. The point is to show how much the extant scenes can be improved simply by having Superman talk a little.

The jar of piss scene is bad, but it's objectively better if Superman gets to talk first.

>>82294093
Not strictly necessary, but you get what I'm going for.

I'd probably add a slow-motion of him trying to move towards the nearest person and shield them, but failing to do so due to how little warning he has.

Then in the immediate aftermath we see him on his knees and looking shocked, rather than standing and looking mildly disappointed.

>"Damnit, you people are so Rao-damned frail."

>>82293936
>The thing is that Lex in this movie has no particular reason to obsess over Superman yet

What? Yes he fucking does, he has a huge issue with the way Superman is worshipped and he thinks Superman is a fraud, that is why he wants to crush him.

>>82294286
Except that when Superman and Lex finally talk Lex instead suggests that it's because he personally doesn't like that Superman/God wasn't there to help Lex when he was beaten by his father as a child, which seems...childish, and in any event has little to do with how everyone else thinks of him.

Which, additional point, Lex is a sociopath. What does he care what other people think?

>>82293467
Don't put it above Snyder.

>>82292927
You don't know what an artistic montage is do you?

>>82294602
Hi Zach

>>82294602
I know that, like all artistic techniques, it is something that should be used sparingly and, more importantly, correctly.

Further I know that when you're adapting something it is important to get the spirit of that thing right, if not necessarily the fine details.

Superman is the kind of person who doesn't just save people, but reassures them and talks to them. He is not a distant Messiah-like figure and making him such showcases a fundamental misunderstanding of the character.

In the extant script, the most convenient places to make changes to showcase Superman's correct character is during that montage scene. If anything I think it adds to the scene by showing a contrast between some people who fear what Superman could do or might represent; verses what Superman is actually like.

>>82294061
>>82294189
Is that actually a line in the movie?

>>82292927
Looks like you added unnecessary dialog

>>82294392
Superman's messianic presence on Earth defies Lex's entire worldview. His desire to destroy Superman fits entirely into how Lex thinks God works in the good/evil axis. Plus it's pure arrogance, he wants to take down a "God" with intelligence, which would make him greater than God

>>82292927
Space Jesus only saves people when he feels like it. And those peasants better not waste his time by talking to him, he has better things to do, those home-cooked meals don't make themselves.

>>82294993
Quite the contrary, it is extremely necessary as it vastly improves upon Superman's characterization.

The next step is of course improving Batman's characterization, with the ultimate goal being to change the dynamic of their fight so that it's not, "who are you cheering for - Batman, the murderous thug who's irrationally afraid of a stand-up guy who makes a habit out of saving people's lives; or Superman, the guy who's only shown up to the fight at all to ask for Batman's help in order to save his mom?"

Call me a momma's boy if you like, but I can't cheer on Batman under those conditions even if he WEREN'T a murderous thug in this movie. Though he is.

>>82295194
Superman is too busy reading Atlas Shrugged to save people

>>82293336
Also Joseph was a way better stepfather than Pa Kent.

>>82295257
But it's established this Superman has Aspergers and can't emote. Why would you want to ruin this universe's established lore?

>>82294061
>It's Lex dressed up as the delivery man
>Runs away giggling looney toons style
>Superman: Hey I know that g-
>BOOM!

>>82295453
Perhaps a little too Silver Age...but to be honest, I'd prefer it.

Holy shit

I didn't want to believe it

But "not MUH superman" is literally real

wow

>>82295512
Imagine, if you will, a remake of Die Hard.

Imagine that in that remake John McClane had a pretty good life, didn't wise crack or even attempt to be funny, and didn't let physical pain bother him.

How would you react?

>>82295590
>John McLane - One character prtrayed by one actor in a series of movies

>Superman - a comic character, 75 years old, reinvented and reimagined countless times across dozens of writers and artists, all who have their own spin on him

You're literally projecting Chris Reeves as Superman

Again...not MUH superman

>>82295675
Hi Zach.

>>82295675
>Superman - a comic character, 75 years old, reinvented and reimagined countless times across dozens of writers and artists, all who have their own spin on him

But there remain a few central tenets to the main continuity Superman, and one of them is that he talks to and reassures people. He's never been portrayed as distant - not in the 1930s, not even in the 1990s.

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. It makes about as much sense as doing a Robin Hood story where he's a boorish lout who robs from the rich, and the poor, as he feels like it, and only gives to the needy in that he will occasionally buy things rather than steal them.

>>82293974
Anyone else thought that the hearing scene was kinda of funny? Like cartoonish funny a la Looney Tunes?

>>82295675
>Again...not MUH superman

Also, further note - the fundamental flaw with this is that Superman is the only superhero that you ever see this argument made about, because Superman is the only superhero who people seem to want to change on a fundamental level.

Marvel has built an entire franchise out of giving people "muh Hulk", "muh Iron Man", and so on. Sure, the fine details change, but the characterization and tenets are still basically there.

But this isn't me being a Marveldrone because it's not unique to Marvel. Christopher Nolan went overboard in trying to create a grounded, realistic take on Batman, but he never tried to fundamentally alter who the character was - in fact if anything he's even closer to the comic book version than the Burton version since he so adamantly clings to his "no kill" policy.

Look at The Flash. Their Barry Allen is wildly different from the original Barry Allen but he is still, on a fundamental level, identifiable as Barry and as The Flash.

So the question then obviously becomes - if I can have muh Batman and muh Iron Man and muh Captain America and muh Flash, why can't I have muh Superman?

Because one hack director of music videos who thinks that Heavy Metal magazine is "high-brow" says I can't?

No. Fuck Snyder. He is wrong, and he is the cancer that is killing Superman.

>>82295675
>reimagined countless times by dozens of writers

Yeah, so often that people know what is good and what is shit. Countless years of material to base your movie on. Great stories about consequences of being superman.

And all we got was an egotistical child-like space god with the emotional capacity of an investment banker.

>>82295453
>Super man is blackened and blinks a couple time in disbelief before shaking him self like a dog and then chasing after lex in a hallway full of doors

>>82295966
>Lex: "MMMMM, BOYS! Ain't I a stinkah?"

>>82294772
>Distant Messiah

Isn't this an oxymoron? Can one be a messiah and be distant? Isn't a messiah someone close to the people he's going to save?

>>82296003
One would assume, but it's what Snyder is going for anyway.

>>82294602
Art is about reduction of technique, Anon.

You gotta know when to use it, and when not to use a certain technique.

You can't just use the same tool over and over and call yourself a craftsman.

>>82295906

its only because of the piss jar and the reaction it got from the Senator, it was so unreal, it took some time till she got what that meant.

>>82294945
Tell that to Zack's snapped script.

>>82293644
Fuck you I liked Lex's speech

>>82295909
Superman as his traditional characterization is no longer valid and cannot work as such

>>82295909
This guy gets it.

>>82295675 got told.

>>82296126
Zach can you please leave?

>>82296126
Tell that to Marvel and Evans' Captain America. They didn't get that memo.

>>82296003
You are thinking of the in-bible perspective of Jesus, which is based on personal interactions with people in need. Instead of the modern day perspective of a guy who died 2000 years ago in a completely distant environment, unseen and untouchable to the modern human, as close to you personally as socrates or plato, more an idea than a person.

>>82296126
Really? And what leads you to believe that?

Captain America has essentially the same personality and characterization as Superman - and people seem to love him.

>>82296208

totally different case but I guess you've heard that already but like to ignore anyway.

>>82296126
Says who?

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>>82296126
You really shut him up.

>>82292927
I wanted to see Superman save a cat stuck in a tree, it sounds cheesy but to that would be great to see.

Also:

Instead of showing Superman floating above the troubled citizens, casting a shadow on their faces - why not show him stretching a hand towards them, as if saying 'I'm here to help'?

People say Snyder is great with visuals, but I don't see why. All of his images work against his storytelling.

>>82296241
In terms of personality, how is Captain America different from Superman? Because I'm honestly stumped in trying to think of anything.

I guess Cap is more likely to be a fan of swing music?

>>82296240
>Captain America has essentially the same personality and characterization as Superman - and people seem to love him.
lol wow, people actually believe this

First off they are not similar at all

Second, Cap as portrayed in the movies is a solider, wary of government intervention, who also kills, strong, but not so strong that he can't be hurt. This is 100% aligned with today's modern world.

>>82296126

Captain America says hi.

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>>82296126
You aren't very smart are you?

>>82296210
This makes no sense.

>>82296241
People in RUSSIA and CHINA are great fans of Captain AMERICA movies. Yeah, traditional Superman sure would suck.

>>82296294
>This is 100% aligned with today's modern world.

And has nothing to do with personality and in no way describes why Captain America can talk to and reassure people but Snyder!Superman for some reason can't.

Do you know what people relate to? People who make an effort to be relatable. Okay, so Superman can fly and bench press a planet. But if he saves someone from a burning building and then asks if they're okay, somehow that makes him an alien figure?

>>82296294
Captain America is a man who does good cause it's the right thing to do. Pretty fucking similar to superman in my opinion pham

>>82296286

You could say that as a soldier he is more willing to kill, but he still doesn't most of the time, and Supes doesn't really have that as an issue with really powerful threats either.

>>82296126
Which makes the characterization all the more important.

>>82296294
No. Oh my God. How wrong can one person be?

>>82296126
>boundless optimism, compassion, and good will are no longer valid
I mean you're right, but it's still sad

>>82296390
Just as Superman does.

Snyder did not change the fact that Superman is intrinsically good. He simply changed teh context of his existence into that of a modern world, one in which the happy go lucky messiah savior figure is no longer acceptable.

>>82296279

Sadly, that's bit is representative of Synder's perception of Superman. As far as Snyder is concerned, Superman is an alien force that is incredibly powerful and desires to do good, but is unable to bridge the gulf between himself and the people he wants to protect. Snyder cannot imagine Superman interacting with everyday people as anything other than an object of fear or worship.

Superman being genuinely friendly and helpful would shatter that illusion. Instead, Clarke has to be silent and aloof and out of reach. Synder considers Lois to be special because she is the only woman who has 'accepted him'.

For someone whose purpose in life only makes sense for an optimist and an altruist, Synderman is really determined to make his life seem as gloomy as possible.

>>82296482

Again, Captain America says hi.

>>82293035
The entire point of this fucking movie is that Superman CANNOT do something as simple as save a girl from a burning building without kicking off a media firestorm of inquiries into what he should and shouldn't be responsible for.

This puts him at unease, makes him disillusioned with what his role is, and it's quite clear that he's uncomfortable and unsure of his role in the universe, even though he wants to do good.

Jesus fucking Christ you guys, it's a messy movie but you people are so fucking stupid when it comes to basic themes and plot points.

>>82296126
Prove it. When was the last time they even tried the traditional characterization? The DCAU? Wow, what a failure that was.

>>82296482
>happy go lucky
Do you even know what that means? Cause that's ever been Superman.

As someone who hasn't seen the movie this thread is confusing me enough ti want to watch it.

>>82296482
>the happy go lucky messiah savior figure
Superman was never "happy go lucky". That's just a strawman parody you've invented in order to claim that this version is somehow more "mature" for its rampant objectivist cynicism.

>>82296488
But that makes no sense in the movie. Clark was raised in Kansas. Went to school. Traveled the world. Can't he be more relatable? Can't he see that his aloofness is causing people to fear him? If he can't, why should I like this big sad retarded baby? This movie is a fucking mess.

>>82296482
You don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. Just shut up and fuck off.

>>82296482
>He simply changed teh context of his existence into that of a modern world, one in which the happy go lucky messiah savior figure is no longer acceptable.

But I don't see a valid reason why Superman wouldn't try to be one anyway, or why Superman attempting to be so is inherently wrong.

>>82296488
This is another fundamental misunderstanding. CLARK KENT is the real person. Superman is who Clark is sometimes when he needs to be, but at the end of the day it's Clark Kent who's in the driver's seat and behind Superman's morals and motivations and decisions about when to act and not to act and what to do. That's another place where Batman and Superman are shown to be different: Bruce Wayne died in the alley with his parents, the "real" person is Batman and occasionally Batman has to pretend to be Bruce Wayne.

Whereas with Superman, Kal-El is just some name and some life he might have had under different circumstances, but the real person is Clark Kent, born and raised in Kansas and human in everything except basic biology.

>>82296551

> works as a reporter, and has a first person view of how empty and ratings driven the news cycle is
> still gets upset by media firestorms and takes them at all seriously

Come on, Clark. Don't be a fool

>>82296551
And you seem to fail to understand that you can have both. You can have a Superman that talks to people and tries to connect with him,and then you can have the media spin it negatively ANYWAY.

And that'll be MORE powerful because we see his attempts and we see them rebuffed.

>>82296618
>Traveled the world
Did he though? We never get a clear picture on the scope of his travels like we did with Birthright.

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>>82296482
>snyder superman
>happy go lucky in any sense

>A reading from the Acts of Man of Steel
>Scene 2:13: Selected passages


>3 And I heard a loud voice from the cinema saying, "Look! Snyder's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and Snyder himself will be with them and be their saviour.

>4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more repetitive or safe or cheap comedy or quips, for the old order of Marvel movies has passed away."

>13 And so they hated him, and persecuted him. The critics crucified him and threw rotten tomatoes at him.

>14 But he persevered and gained strength from the audience, and so we will persevere.

>15 And he stands by the right side of the spirit of Kino, and draws inspiration from it, and so will his followers.

>22 During the filming of the port battle at Batman v Superman, Snyder was found wandering along the port.

>23 In one of such instances he walked on water while carrying an IMAX camera on one hand, which greatly terrified his cast and crew at that time.

>24 Affleck, out of fear, shouted "Snyder, if it is you, tell me to come to the water!"

>25 "Come". Snyder said.

>26 Affleck stepped on the water and walked for a few feet but then sank. He cried out "Snyder, hast thou forsaken me? Save me, oh dear brother!"

>27 Immediately Snyder reached out his hand and caught him.

>28 Snyder exclaimed, "Bin Muhammad Afflecki, why did you doubt?"

>29 And so the heretic one vowed to spread the word..

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>>82296286

Cap is in many ways different, he represents way more patriotism and the values of the old, he is a veteran who fought against the nazis in the most american outfit you could have, he started as a weakling who turned into an american hero, yet you see him struggle and fight for what he thinks is right, he is very self-rightous which is even more american and also knows when to go against the corrupt government which makes him more appealing to todays audience.

Meanwhile superman is a seemingly perfect being from other world, who was born perfect and doesn't need to struggle, his problems seem so outwordly and unrelatable, its so obvious he could take control of everything and solve everything if he wanted, thats why you just ask yourself, what is there to admire, what is there to relate. Rather he seems like a figure you'd worship as the savior or fear as the bringer of doom, this has always been part of the character, you see that on how people look at him and talk to him, the writers have to make him weaker, so that he doesn't seem like he is above everyone, a part of his character has always been how he feels like an outsider which explain his fortress of solitude.

Only in a very tame world, people threat him like an equal and even then he seems so out of place unlike Steve who seems like a diligent but simple nice guy eventhough he is an experienced leader who fought in wars.

>>82296551
What the hell are you talking about? The media was torn between love/hate him and that would be more than normal in a scenario like that.

We got that the media and the public was afraid of him, we're just pointing out how stupid it all was.

>I won't save people or else FOX NEWS will make an editorial about how I shouldn't have done it =( hold me Lois!

>burning buliding, everyone cleared out except for some lady
>Clark swoops in, gets her out of there in time before the roof caves in
>"Superman! How can I ever tha-"
"Shh, it's okay. You don't have to say anything, you just have to eat all of these eggs" *hands her a bowl full of eggs*

>>82296551

And Cap is unsure of his place in the world as a supersoldier without a war to fight, cut from time, detached from modern society.

But he keeps going, his heroics inspiring people and other heroes, gaining the favor of the audience in the process.

But again, completely different characters.

Boy scout Superman had no place in the modern world.

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>>82296703
>>23 In one of such instances he walked on water while carrying an IMAX camera on one hand, which greatly terrified his cast and crew at that time.

>>82296551
>This puts him at unease, makes him disillusioned with what his role is, and it's quite clear that he's uncomfortable and unsure of his role in the universe, even though he wants to do good.

Sure, fine, he can have those moments of self-doubt in private if he absolutely must (though I really feel they're out of place in a Superman movie).

But I don't see why he'd be like that while in the actual process of saving people's lives.

Okay, so Superman can't save someone from a burning building without someone politicizing it; that doesn't change that *in the moment* he *is* saving someone's life, has some scared woman in his arms probably with burns across her body and choking on smoke inhalation, and all he's doing is moving her from the building and then leaving.

I know what Snyder was trying to say; it's just that he's fucking wrong.

>>82296618
>>82296652

This is the same movie where Superman refers to Krypton as 'his world' and Kryptonians as 'his people'.

Fuck off, Clark. Your would is Earth. You have never even seen, much less been to, Krypton. Your people are goddamn farmers in Kansas.

You talked to that hologram of your dad for less than ten minutes. Get your head out of your ass.

>>82296721
A well-written Superman doesn't feel like an outsider, that's the whole point of Clark Kent

>>82296686
Or traveled a lot. Either way, it's not like he was a retarded shut-in who never talked to people.

>>82296695
Reread the post man, he's saying that Snyderman is a universe where that's unacceptable.

The logic seems to go that the world Snyder presents has to be cynical in order for Superman to have meaning, but also, paradoxically, that Superman trying and failing to connect with people won't have any meaning so it's okay that he not try at all.

>>82296721
>his problems seem so outwordly and unrelatable,
His dad died of a heart attack. So otherworldly. Such unrelatable. Nobody on earth has ever had a dad die of a heart attack before. And that whole adoption thing? Only aliens get adopted.

>>82296786
If anything, as a hobo who was frequently picking up jobs, he never could have lived the life we saw him live without social skills.

>>82296786
Unfortunately MoS made a point of showing him as asocial during the small amounts of traveling he did do.

>>82296741
>Boy scout Superman had no place in the modern world.
Why not? You keep saying this but why not?

>>82295966
>Finds a familiar looking hairdresser in one room
>Oh Mr. Superman, I'm your biggest fan! Do you have time for a haircut?
>Sure..

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>>82296739
Okay, I'm the OP, but I nevertheless lol'd.

>>82296658
>You can have a Superman that talks to people and tries to connect with him,and then you can have the media spin it negatively ANYWAY.

Hell, we had that movie, in animated form. It was called "Superman verses The Elite", it's an adaptation of the comic "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?", and it's fantastic.

Well, animation could have been a bit better. But it's fundamentally a fantastic movie otherwise.

>>82296759
Man of Steel was Clark striving for Jor-Els ideal

BvS was Clarke realizing Jor-Els ideal was impossible and that Jonathan Kent was right. BvS was all about Superman finally realizing he is human above all.

>>82296786
In a strictly legal sense Clark spent a good 10 years as a drifter with not ties to the community. We have no idea if he made friends along the way, and in fact the movie seems to insinuate he didn't, and that Lois is the first friend he's made in his adult life.

>>82296741
>Boy scout Superman had no place in the modern world.

But we have Boy Scout Flash, and it's received phenomenally well.

>>82296721

>I don't know who Superman is, but I'll write a aragraph putting him down regardless.

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>>82296721
>what is there to admire, what is there to relate
Because before he was superman, he was just clark kent, and that defines his actions and how he uses the powers he discovers.
He's still a person, with all the same psychological and emotional problems we have, but compounded with massive responsibility. Which in snyder's movies is thrust upon him, instead of something he takes himself, which I think makes a world of difference. Superman being superman with his first outing saving the world (and being hated for it) is a way different origin than him gradually becoming a hero. In this context, superman's characterization makes sense, but its not an especially appealing one, and any pathos in it is clumsily handled

>>82296815
People always crow about Peter Parker being relatable, but bitches love Spider-man while Clark struggles to get Lois to notice him

>>82296721
>superman is a seemingly perfect being from other world, who was born perfect and doesn't need to struggle, his problems seem so outwordly and unrelatable, its so obvious he could take control of everything and solve everything if he wanted, thats why you just ask yourself, what is there to admire, what is there to relate.

He's a lovable american from the countryside. Only much later he finds out about Krypton and all that. He's not some aloof alien who doesn't know his place. He knows. It's here. Saving people and being good like Pa and Ma taught him to. Fuck off with that 'Superman is an alien' shit.

>>82296774
>that's the whole point of Clark Kent

well this would turn into a way longer discussion if we talk about Supermans persona as Clark Kent, don't know if worth it.

>>82296815
>my father died as well, which means I can be like superman

>>82296848
>>82296901

I was being sarcastic, pointing out how asinine is to think that a traditional Superman doesn't work today.

Snyder didn't even try.

>>82296943
>>82296919

according to superman-fags, superman has always been and must always be superman.

>>82296921
I will never understand how the blue collar farmer's boy that pines after a coworker and plays with his dog in between acts of community service is unrelatable, while the super intelligent martial artist detective billionare that somehow manages to function on 2 hours of sleep a day is so realistic and I should totally get behind that.

>>82296855
>>82295989
>Lex pulls out glowing green kryptonite scissors from behind himself and then winks to the audeince
>cuts superman's head off
>hands him a hand mirror
>superman's body freaks out and runs out of the barber shop while his head bounces behind it
>Lex: "MMMMM, BOYS! Ain't I a stinkah?"

>>82296909
Live-action adaptations have become like the biggest monkey's paw.

>>82293149
Hi Zack! Is your wife going to divorce you for making such a garbage movie or does she just feel sorry for you?

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>>82296815
>His dad died of a heart attack.

AND ANOTHER THING.

In most Superman continuities both his parents are still alive. But sometimes Pa Kent dies, and that's fine. Adds drama. I can understand it.

But it is *vitally important* that when Pa Kent dies, he dies from a heart attack, or a seizure, or an anyeurism, or the like. Something internal. Something Superman could not possibly prevent, because in dying in this way Pa Kent teaches Superman the most important lesson of his life: that he CAN'T save everyone. That even if he devoted every hour of every day to saving people, there is still going to be people who die early, from things that Superman just can't possibly prevent.

Instead, Snyder gives us STOP INVINCIBLE SON.

>>82296975
This thread literally is proving you wrong with every other post and you still think we're gonna buy that bullshit.

>>82296975
Quiet Bill, your speech was dumb

>>82296945
Superman is a persona of Clark Kent, not the other way around as Zack would want us to believe

>>82296882

> BvS was all about Superman finally realizing he is human above all.

In what way? I didn't get that message from the movie at all. Too many messiah messages for Clarke to be 'human' in any meaningful way.

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>>82296790
>Snyderman is a universe where that's unacceptable.
Then you completely fucked the point of what a DC universe is.
This isn't Injustice
This isn't Watchmen
This isn't The Authority
This isn't Youngblood
This isn't Supergod
DC universe as a whole is meant to be a place of hope and inspiration

>>82296741
>Boy scout Superman had no place in the modern world.

>people love Captain America
>people love the CW Flash
>Supergirl is also liked and is doing pretty well
>Matt Murdock is akin to a saint, and people still love him and watch his show.

Are you retarded?

>>82296945
>my father died as well, which means I can be like superman

That's seriously what you took away from that post?

>>82297004
I think Pa is only alive in Post-Crisis and DCAU

>>82297023
The messianic imagery is to show how people perceive him, just as man children in the real world see him as their own personal jesus, not to say that he IS jesus.

>>82296985
You're dethipickable, Lex.

>>82297041
Preaching to the choir.
I find it immensely strange how these supposed "DC fans" so vehemently hate Marvel but their solution for modernizing and improving DC is to replace the DC civilians with Marvel's assholes that barely deserve saving. I kept wondering when is Lex going to build Sentinels.

>>82293156
>>82292927
>aka simpleton exposition for simpletons 101
Take it to Marvel kid.

>>82296833
>>82296897

How did he manage to live like that without talking to anyone?

>>82297087
>I find it immensely strange how these supposed "DC fans

Its fucking /tv/ and casuals. Don't pin that shit on fans.

>>82297102
Fucking this. No need to say with dialogue what the movie already says with imagery. Especially if it's just so you fuckers can wank over your feelgood capeshit.

>>82296919
>He's a lovable american from the countryside.

I didn't deny this, I didn't talk about how superman is but how people see superman even in universe. I myself think superman has always been the country guy with a simple mind and values, that is way he sometimes feels conflicted about his role in this world and yearns for his homeworld and his people.

>>82297071
Well...whatever, the point is still fundamentally sound: Pa Kent doesn't have to be dead, but if he IS dead it's important that he die a certain way.

>>82297108
It's a montage. We're not supposed to think about it too hard, or if we do, we're supposed to fill in the gaps ourselves with fanficition. What, do you need everything spoonfed to you?

>>82297108
You can get by with bare minimum communication if you try hard enough.

>>82297108

Plenty of drifters in America are treated like non-people.

Plenty of drifters are unhinged or addicts. It's a vicious cycle.

>>82297146
>says with imagery
"Superman is an ineffable god that can't relate to people" is all I got out of the presented imagery

>>82297160
That isn't relatable?

>>82297139
Why do you think I put it in quotation marks?

t. Stuckman

>>82297108
fairly easy
he was just a smelly homeless guy who avoids people, who would want to talk to him?

>>82297078
>The messianic imagery is to show how people perceive him


But thats false. Too much of the messianic imagery is literal instead of rhetorical. Its not just people talking about how they consider him to be godlike or a Jesus stand-in. He literally dies on a hill of crosses as a self sacrifice for the good of humanity and the camera holds an image of his body draped in his cape that is an intentional visual reference to paintings depicting the death of Christ. Even ignoring the fact that Superman is fated to return from the dead, this is some heavy handed messianic imagery that is being aimed by the film at the viewer directly, without passing through the mouth of any onscreen character to taint it as their opinion.

Superman, in BvS, IS JESUS. This has nothing to do with what people think of him, its a fact of the script.

>>82297146
>>82297146

a) the movie doesn't say any of this with imagery. All the imagery of Superman saving people is mostly him looking bored and focused on portraying him as a Messiah rather than a swell guy; while the Capitol scene doesn't give him a chance to say or do anything and the imagery is instead focused on a jar of piss.

b) A Superman movie is *supposed* to be feelgood capeshit. If it's not that, then something has gone fundamentally wrong during the script writing or filming process.

>>82297146
>Especially if it's just so you fuckers can wank over your feelgood capeshit.

Why shouldn't capeshit be feelgood?

>>82297043

I was being sarcastic, trying to point out the error of anon's argument by showing how Cap is the same and works.

I guess I should've made it more obvious.

>>82297244
To tack onto this post, it really doesn't matter if the character rejects his divinity when the narrative itself doesn't.

>>82296695
>you
>being able to read in any sense

>>82293297
>>82293336
Huh. I never realized how much I want a Jesus allegory Superman that actually acts like Jesus.

>>82297186

no, because his powerset and his origins will always distance him from what is relatable. Being the strongest kinda turns you into a unrelatable almost alien figure and everyone who doesn't know much about comics thinks he is the strongest. Funny enough that is also one reason why some love him because powerwise he is basically a dragon ball z character and negros and latinos love DBZ.

>>82292927
It's going to be okay, ma'am
>Girl stared confused, responds with "Lo siento...no habla Inglés..."
[Superman smiles] "Yo quiero Taco Bell."

>>82297386
This might not compute with you but there are different kinds of strength. Clark is physically the strongest (and even then not really) but emotionally can be as weak and vulnerable as anyone else. Just explore that instead of going "well he's sad" and calling it a day.

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>>82297386
>Being the strongest kinda turns you into a unrelatable almost alien figure

Yeah, and fuck Hercules too, no one likes him.

>>82297004
Bonus points if Pa dies while Clark is doing some heroic thing elsewhere

Double bonus points if he gives Clark the "use your powers for good" speech shortly beforehand

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>>82297386
>everyone who doesn't know much about comics thinks he is the strongest
Why does that matter? What did people know about iron man before his movies?
>Being the strongest kinda turns you into a unrelatable almost alien figure
And makes for an interesting story. Power level has nothing to do with the quality of a story. Just because superman can overcome physical obstacles doesn't mean he does have abstract struggles

>>82297439
I CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS CHARACTER.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgnHF2CwrPs

>>82297460
More like missing the point.

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>>82297399

It's going to be okay, ma'am.
>Girl stared confused, responds with "Lo siento...no habla Inglés..."
[Superman smiles] chinga tu madre

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>>82297460
>Pa?
>I...I can't hear his heartbeat!
>NO!
>NOT MY PA!

So unrelateable. So alien.

>>82297386
Two of the best Superman stories are about him at his most powerful and his least powerful, and he's relatable in both

>>82297513
It's going to be okay, ma'am
>Girl stared confused, responds with "Lo siento...no habla Inglés..."
You don't have to tell me what happened, but you do have to eat these
>superman hands her a bowl of eggs

>>82297386
This argument is so bullshit. Why does "overpowered" seem to only apply to Superman? Especially when he occasionally loses just like any other hero? Of course he wins most his battles, so do like 80% of protagonists in fiction.

I had a guy tell me the other day Superman was lame and OP because he came back from the dead. Because no other hero has ever done that obviously.

>>82297473
Wow it really was a Superman movie

>>82297633
Pretty much exactly, at least with Hercules' origin story. Then for a little bit he segues into being Booster Gold instead, but that's okay.

>>82293156
>Package being delivered to a senator during a hearing

A package containing liquid no less

>>82297439

how is hercules the strongest in a world with gods?

>>82297468
>Why does that matter? What did people know about iron man before his movies?

how is iron mans case comparable in any way?

>>82297468
>And makes for an interesting story. Power level has nothing to do with the quality of a story. Just because superman can overcome physical obstacles doesn't mean he does have abstract struggles

and you'd drift from the figure of hope territory which is exactly what superman-fags want to have right into what Snyder tryed to make yet failed. Your picture about one punch man makes it even more hilarious because a similar characterization would make superman-fags buttblasted for all eternity.

>>82297675
Booster was Superman for a little bit, it evens out

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>>82297694
It would by far not be the most jarring (no pun intended) thing in the movie.

BRUCE! I HAVE TO TELL YOU ABOUT THE FUTURE!

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>>82296721
>its so obvious he could take control of everything and solve everything if he wanted

Just admit you've never read a superman comic you casual.

>>82297720
>how is hercules the strongest in a world with gods?

I feel you are not well-read on the DC universe if you're actually asking this question.

>>82297473
I CAN GO THE DISTANCE
TO DEFEAT
THE HUNS

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>>82297789

>>82297720
>how is hercules the strongest in a world with gods?
because a story about a high powered person only things need things stronger than him to make conflict
>how is iron mans case comparable in any way?
because popular perceptions don't have to influence how a writer composes the story
>and you'd drift from the figure of hope territory which is exactly what superman-fags want to have right into what Snyder tryed to make yet failed. Your picture about one punch man makes it even more hilarious because a similar characterization would make superman-fags buttblasted for all eternity.
I'm not saying thats what superman has to do, but it can be done. But saying superman is the strongest is dumb because in the two DCEU movies he isn't the strongest one because he was overwhelmed or it was fucking doomsday

>Who should we get to direct Superman
>I know what about that guy who doesn't care about comics and made that zombie movie remake
>Genius

>>82292927
It's hard to write Superman correctly when you think Ayn Rand is a genius.

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>>82297844

>>82297924
Anon, I almost want to ask you to stop, but only so that you can start up a full Peace on Earth storytime thread.

>>82297920
>hard

That's not how you spell "impossible".

>>82297791

Of course there are stronger beings in the comics yet superman had defeated those who are way stronger than him, at the level of gods, this seems more fearsome than inspiring.

>>82297855
>because a story about a high powered person only things need things stronger than him to make conflict

we've seen superman already fighting monsters who can level a city within in an hour, everytime he fights with humans around, his status of above all seems even more obvious moreso if he deafeats someone stronger than him.

>because popular perceptions don't have to influence how a writer composes the story

I know it sounds mean but I couldn't helpt but laugh.

>>82297855
Superman DOESN'T need someone stronger than him for there to be conflict, that's the whole point of Lex being his #1 foe

>>82297983
Agreed.

>>82298189
thats what i said , but even then he's not the strongest against people he faces frequently, so saying he's too strong is just a dumb point

>>82298189
At some point movies should just give Lex a rest. He's always Superman's enemy and they always fuck it up.
But then I guess they could also stop fucking up Superman as a whole...

>>82298089
>Of course there are stronger beings in the comics yet superman had defeated those who are way stronger than him, at the level of gods, this seems more fearsome than inspiring.

What is it that you think protagonists *do* in heroic fantasy?

>>82293035
>Jesus
>Unapproachable

confirmed for not reading the comics

Zack didn't do as nearly as much as you said to make the film bad.

Why do you guys say that Zack wrote the movie? He worked off of a pre-existing script and at most changed 1 or 2 scenes for visual purposes. Blame him for the Doomsday fight, not any of this shit

Like, man. Zack isn't even that bad a director. David Goyer's the guy you should blame

For fuck's sake, Snyder wasn't in favor of Superman snapping Zod's neck in MoS but you still shit on him for that too

>>82299081
What's the recommended reading list for Jesus? Been meaning to get into him

>>82299081
There are four runs worth mentioning. Matthew's was pretty iconic, so sometimes it feels like Mark, Luke, and John's runs are just rehashing it from different perspectives.

>>82301197
>Salvation Comics by Mark
>Jesus of Nazareth by Luke
>skip Matthew and Mark's runs, they're shit

>>82301255
>Not liking Based Matthew's "Two Blind Men Healed" arc
Not so great taste senpai

>>82297004
But anon, it's much better to have that same character deliver that same message through shitty hamfisted "philosophical" dialogue instead of showing it via the narrative.
Who likes proper film-making anyway.

>>82297924
Best SM comic IMO. I thought we were genuinely going to see this Supes on screen before BvS came out, what with the Day of the Dead and congressional hearing imagery.

So much wasted potential.

>>82293156
It didn't really matter what Superman had said in that scene, because everyone in the room was going to blow up

>>82293156
>Superman approaches the podium
"Senator, before we get started, why do I smell urine in this room? It's not the crippled guy, he's...is that a bomb?"

>>82294278
it's Lexeinberg's Keikkaku, remember? It's a callback to an earlier scene with him and the Senator shows he manages to get away with using a bomb as a deterrent.

>>82295315
Now son, I understand you're the son of God, but does that mean you should help people? I'm not sure, but let me walk into this tornado.

>>82301170
Snyder pushed for the necksnap while Nolan and Goyer said "dude no"

and yes, Zack is that bad of a director

Reminds me of some guy's dialogue rewrites for MAN OF STEEL.

>JONATHAN: "Did you find what you were looking for, son?"

>CLARK: "I don't know yet."

>JONATHAN: "You know... Your mother couldn't stop crying after you left. I swear she spent an entire day just eating ice cream and looking at old baby photos."

>CLARK: "I know. I heard it. And every time I did, I wanted to come back."

>JONATHAN: "But you didn't."

>CLARK: "I couldn't, Pa. I needed to find out if there some place where I belong."

>JONATHAN: "What about the old farm?"

>CLARK: "I love you. And I love Ma, and I love this place, but I never felt like I belonged here. I always felt that this wasn't what I'm meant to do."

>JONATHAN: "Clark, since the first time you came into our lives... Since your mother and I found you... We knew you wouldn't stay. We hoped you would, but we knew you wouldn't. Your mother always said you were meant for greater things. That you would change the world someday."

>CLARK: "How? I'm not even human."

>JONATHAN: "You're my son. And above all, you're a good man. And good men are what the world will always need... Of course, lifting a truck with one hand does help."

>JONATHAN: "All you have to do is remember one thing: Us... The world... We don't need someone to fix it for us."

>CLARK: "You need someone to help you do it yourselves."

>JONATHAN: "Ourselves, Clark. Ourselves."

>PERRY: "Clark Kent. Graduated from Smallville University with not that bad of a GPA. Two years travelling abroad, wrote a few articles on the situation in Rwanda. Average wording, average composition. Average. Average. Average."

>CLARK: "I know you probably have several applicants for this job, Mr. White, but I do think that I could be a good addition to your staff."

>PERRY: "Why the sudden interest in the Daily Planet, Kent?"

>CLARK: "My mother, actually. Her parents lived in Metropolis before moving to Smallville. She told me her father bought the Daily Planet every day, then sat down and read it with her. She has a box of old editions back home, she always told me that the Daily Planet was there before anyone else, and that the Daily Planet always told the truth. "In troubled times, truth can be hope", it's something she uses to day."

>PERRY: "And you wanna' bring hope to the people?"

>CLARK: "You could say that."

>PERRY: "Heh. Unbelievable. Kent, can you read?"

>CLARK: "Yes, sir."

>PERRY: "Can you write?"

>CLARK: "Yes."

>PERRY: "You're in."

>CLARK: "Really? I mean, it's an honor. Thank you, Mr. Wh..."

>PERRY: "Yeah, yeah... Talk to Troupe, he'll find something for you to do."

>CLARK: "Right."

>LOIS: "Don't mind Perry, new guy. He's just fuming that people would rather look at porn on the internet than read about the world."

>CLARK: "I wouldn't know."

>LOIS: "Figured you wouldn't. Lois Lane, two Pulitzers, two hundred lawsuits. Welcome to the Daily Planet."

>CLARK: "That's impressive. The Pulitzers, I mean."

>LOIS: "Hey, the lawsuits ain't bad either. A couple more and I might break the world record."

>>82296482
>Snyder did not change the fact that Superman is intrinsically good.
FUCK OFF.

>CLARK: Zod. What is this place?

>ZOD: After years adapted to Earth's environment, the artificial atmosphere of my ship was too much for you to handle. While we re-acclimate you to Krypton's air, your mind created a place where you'd feel safe.

>CLARK: And I am meant to believe you're here to apologize? You are probing my mind. And I want to know why.

>ZOD: ... What do you know about Krypton, Kal?

>CLARK: I know that it's gone.

>ZOD: Yes... In Krypton, society was divided in castes. Rather than being born, our children were bred to fulfill predetermined roles, cogs of a greater machine. There was no outcasts, no loneliness, no defiance or despair.

>CLARK: And no free will.

>ZOD: Ah, yes, Jor-El's precious free will. I have been observing this planet, Kal. This world that Jor-El considered better than ours. And all I see is suffering. A planet crumbling under the weight of six billion insects aimlessly searching for purpose. You see, that's all your precious free will yields. Uncertainty. And uncertainty breeds chaos.

>CLARK: Why are you here?

>ZOD: Because your father was right about one thing. One system is only as strong as the sum of its parts, and Krypton was weak. Our rulers were so blinded by their own perceived greatness that they abandoned our space program and left our off-world colonies to rot. And, in doing so, they sentenced Krypton to death. The planet was dying, and our last hope was the Codex containing the memories of our race. Your father stole the Codex and put it on the capsule that brought you to Earth. I want it back.

>CLARK: To what purpose?

>ZOD: Rebuild Krypton... On Earth. This planet is rare. It's young. It's suitable for the process. Here our race can thrive.

>CLARK: And what about the humans?

>ZOD: The foundation must be built on something. They're insects, Kal, squandering a planet they don't deserve. I will be merciful enough to liberate them from their pitiful existence.

>>82301170
Part of being the director means that the buck stops with you.

>>82301773
It matters to the audience, anon.

>>82293297
>But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these

>>82295675
should be first and only post itt

>SUPERMAN: "Superman?"

>LOIS: "Seemed appropriate."

>SUPERMAN: "Seems indulgent."

>LOIS: "It's about the message."

>SUPERMAN: "Message?"

>LOIS: "You saved the world. You inspired people to do their best to help others. You've given the people a reason to look up in the sky. Want it or not, that's who you are now. Superman. You're exactly what the world needs."

>SUPERMAN: "I'm just trying to be a good man. Good men are what the world will always need."

>>82302226
>PERRY: "Heh. Unbelievable. Kent, can you read?"
>CLARK: "Yes, sir."
>PERRY: "Can you write?"
>CLARK: "Yes."
>PERRY: "You're in."

This is fantastic. I would have loved to see this in the movie.

>>82301197

Jesus: Year One
Jesus/John: The Shepherd and the Sheep
The Disciples: Secret Origin

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>Pic unrelated forever

>>82302581
I was worried you were going to recommend the Judas Contract.

>>82301197
In seriousness, the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, which is sort of a "deleted scenes" from the Gospel according to Matthew.

In it, Jesus fights dragons.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0848.htm

>>82302661

That was shit.

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>>82301197

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Doug_Mauss_The_Action_Bible_Easter_Story?id=2XDlAgAAQBAJ

The Action Bible.

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>>82292927now fuck off

>>82302581

You forgot Injesus: Gods Among Us

>>82301197
1. Jesus Boy: Secret Identity
2. Christ Birthright
3. The Death of Jesus Man
4. Jesus: Man of Feel
5. Jesus Christ - Peace on Earth

>>82302823
As a general rule, I strongly question any argument in favor of MoS or BvS that tries to paint Lex Luthor as in any way a force for good.

Additionally, none of the argument there of what Snyder was trying to say matters. It's still the wrong message to have in a Superman movie, and Snyder's not somehow deep for being able to use religious imagery. Any idiot can do that.

What you need to be able to do as a director of an adapted work is string together a cohesive narrative while staying true to the core tentets of the thing you are adapting. In this, as in innumerable other areas, Snyder failed.

>it's an "OP offers his autistic fanfiction rewrites" thread
thanks

>>82302823
the fire rescue happens after the montage, though

>>82303064
No, the fire rescue is the thing that kicks off the montage.

>>82301170
>For fuck's sake, Snyder wasn't in favor of Superman snapping Zod's neck in MoS but you still shit on him for that too

You be trolling, anon:

>Here’s what Snyder said in 2013 about Superman killing Zod:

>In the original version of the script, he just got zapped into the Phantom Zone. David [S. Goyer] and I had long talked about it, and Chris [Nolan] and I talked long about it. And I was like, “I really think he should kill Zod, and I really feel like Superman should kill him.”

>This account is backed up by Goyer, who, in the same podcast, said that Nolan told them there was no way they could have that ending. He flat out told them not to write it. Goyer added that they talked to people at DC who told them “No way. No way.” Which Goyer and Snyder apparently didn’t see as a logical reading of the character, and more of a challenge to find the one situation where Superman would kill. Snyder said, later in the Empire podcast, “I just felt like we were able to create this scenario where either Superman is going to see these people get chopped in half or he’s gotta do what he’s gotta do.”

http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-brief-history-of-zack-snyder-defending-the-end-of-man-1763888746

Snyder insisted Superman kill despite everyone telling him it was a bad idea.

Is it fun being human garbage?

>>82301197
The Dark Messiah Returns

Watchdisciples

>>82303126
coulda sworn the montage happens before bathtub sex and the fire rescue happens when he's making breakfast afterwards

maybe I'm confused

>>82303182
Snyder is the guy who posts all those "why doesn't Batman rape the Joker" Gordon threads.
The twist: he posts them unironically.

Seriously though, the specious reasoning that it's "logical" for a comic character to have the same moral rules as you would have in their place is annoying. People seriously need to get some self-awareness.

>>82302840

Why did I laugh so hard?

>>82303337
puns may be the lowest form of comedy, but they're still funny when you don't expect them

>>82292927
>Girl stared confused, responds with "Lo siento...no habla Inglés..."
>[Superman smiles] "Construir el muro."

FTFY

>>82303337

Because Jesus killing a pregnant woman and delivering NAARRRGGGHHHSSSS is funny.

>>82303240
It's after Lex's party. Clark notices the fire on a TV in Lex's kitchen and goes off to help the lady, which kicks off the montage.

I saw this movie twice and, as I work at a movie theater, have to do regular walk-throughs for it. It is burned into my mind no matter how much I wish to expunge it.

(on the up side, at least I didn't pay to see it either time. The first time I saw it (at my aforementioned theater, where I get free tickets for working there) simply because I wanted to see if it could meet my absurdly low expectations - it did not - and the second time I was dragged to it by my dad and brother, who wanted to see it).

Old Testament: Golden Age - the original, full of weird shit, sometimes pretty dark, kind of rough around the edges

New Testament: Silver Age - Soft and friendly with a moral message

Koran: 90s XTREME

Book of Mormon: 2000s Fanfic about being spacekin and harems

So about that Superjesus thing... what would be his kryptonite?
Nails? Fedoras? Critical thinking?

>>82303573
Seafood.

Jesus is Jewish, remember.

I feel like this thread is derailing a bit.

>>82303573
Roman spears

>>82303668
How? Snyder established that Superman = Jesus, so it's on topic.

>>82303637
They're just not supposed to eat it, it doesn't actually do anything to them. I'd say lactose.

>>82301773
It absolutely matters because it informs on Clark's character and belief system, makes the ideological conflict less one sided, and gives his character agency.

As opposed to him just being a plot device that frowns a lot.

>>82303573
Going by modern conservative Christians:

Gays, masturbation, pornography, Harry Potter, and Dungeons & Dragons.

Exposure to any of these will weaken and eventually kill Jesus.

I feel like this is one of those times where it's "tell, don't show" as opposed to the other way around.

>>82303910
Let it go, Jim. He's dead.

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>>82303337

>"Take your hurt feelings and go."
>proceeds to kill every merchant in the temple

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>>82301197
Avoid 90's Death and Return of Jesus storyline. Shit was an embarrasing ripoff of the golden age Jesus "Whatever happened to the son of god".

>>82302460
>>82293297
Do you think you guys would have liked the jesus metaphors in BvS better if he actually acted like jesus?

Those would be pretty out of place in the movie. If you wanted a movie about a paternalistic space-daddy go watch something else.

>>82293156
>your world's sun gives me
Our world's sun. Superman should see himself as a person of Earth.

>>82303931
Weird thing is Snyder seems to be a "tell don't show" director as long as it doesn't involve superhero costumes.
I mean look how much people in those movies pontificate about what Superman, God, power and responsibility mean.

>>82303996

Jesus Fucking Christ.

>>82303996
12/10

>>82304085
This conception of Superman is closer to Jesus than any other onscreen depiction. Superman as usually depicted is a defender of the status quo, which is about as far from Jesus as you can get. Snyder's Superman might not be the salvation of mankind but he is at least a transformative event in the history of the world. Because we live in a world where Christianity is a large cultural force we forget that Christ was a forthright challenge to earthly power.

>>82303996
Now Superman is a Jesus allegory.

>>82304275
>he is at least a transformative event in the history of the world
Despite himself. He's the most passive depiction of Superman, he doesn't act on the world, the world acts on him.

I might be sounding a bit /pol/ right now, but I feel like it'd be better if Superman was written from a "right" angle rather than a "left" angle, culturally speaking.

That's the irony at the core of Superman as a character. He's royalty from an alien post-scarcity society of superhumans, cast down into the dirt of Kansas. But more importantly, he believes all that.

Of course he'd have a right wing upbringing. Not the "fuck the gays, build the wall" right wing, the "one man can build himself up into something grand" right wing, the "a simple life of goodness is better than a complex life of sin", the "a prayer reading a day keeps the devil away".

Even if Superman isn't Christian in this hypothetical telling, the point is that his ideals are simple. He helps people because that's the right thing to do, and that's why he pisses Lex off so much.

Because by all logic someone like Superman would be a perfect Lex, cold logical decision, a constant strive towards perfection, basically the perfect Kryptonian. If Lex weren't such an arrogant prick with his "muh superiority" he'd probably admire the Kryptonians.

But then Superman doesn't do any of that. He's hope, and Jesus to a lot of people, but he doesn't act like a god, at least not at first.

Over time he becomes more understanding of what he means to people, what his actions do, but they don't make him completely cold and impossible to relate to. They make him human, give him a very real struggle between his desire to do good on a simple scale and the pressure to do good on a much larger scale.

But fuck it nope let's just have cold, mature Superman for our mature audiences.

>>82304421
>He's royalty

He's not royalty. The House of El was moderately well off but it wasn't royal by any means.

Otherwise you have a pretty solid point, though I don't really think of that mindset as being innately liberal or conservative. Doing good BECAUSE it's good is a pretty fundamental part of my belief structure, but I'm fairly liberal.

>>82304365
Superman has always been passive in the sense of wanting to preserve the world, not change it. This depiction of Superman tries to act like the previous incarnations, but he has been placed in a world much like our own that sees him as an affront to the powers that be.

Here's a good article on the movie from this perspective.

audienceseverywhere.net/zack-snyders-superman/

>>82304421
>only right wing people are capable of morality
Fuck you.

>>82304421
>the point is that his ideals are simple

The whole movie is a rebuke/challenge to the simple ideals of superhero movies.

>>82304600
>Superman has always been passive in the sense of wanting to preserve the world, not change it.

Superman wants the world to change itself. He's supposed to inspire us to greater things, not do the heavy lifting himself.

"They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way."

>>82304600
>This depiction of Superman tries to act like the previous incarnations
No he doesn't.
He also doesn't have shit for proper motivations.
>he has been placed in a world much like our own
Nah. Cynicism =/= realism.

I don't need yet another "Zack Snyder is actually a misunderstood genius" read, thanks.

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>>82297633
I can't believe I never put that together.

>>82304695
That wouldn't be bad in of itself except
1. Satarizing a codifier is always a risky prospect
2. It doesn't actually refute those ideals. It just pretends they don't exist, and it won't let Superman even begin to encapsulate them before it shuts everything down.
Snyder is effectively "arguing" against the point by refusing to let it ever get off the ground. Literally, in the case of the senate scene.

>>82304705
Yeah they sort of backtracked on that with BvS, humans are shown to be distrustful and violent. Wonder Woman straight up calls the 20th century a "Century of horrors." There's kind of a hopeful coda of "We have to keep trying, we can do better" But the rest of the movie makes it hard to believe in.

>>82304843
>It doesn't actually refute those ideals. It just pretends they don't exist

What does this even mean? The audience goes in knowing the conventions of the genre, that's how satire works. The movies doesn't need to re-explain it to them.

>>82295909
>Christopher Nolan went overboard in trying to create a grounded, realistic take on Batman, but he never tried to fundamentally alter who the character was - in fact if anything he's even closer to the comic book version than the Burton version since he so adamantly clings to his "no kill" policy.

Here is where you're fucking wrong. While I admit that Burton's Batman isn't "muh Batman" Nolan's Batman is even less "muh Batman" than any other Batman.

Batman doesn't become Batman so he can impress a fucking character that was in like literally two floppies (out of thousands). Rachel Dawes disapproval of Bruce is not what sends him on his path to become Batman. Also, Batman doesn't stop being Batman for 10 years cause his not-girlfriend died.

In the comics Batman has dealt with the death of countless friends and allies and continued fucking being Batman. The only times Bruce stopped being Batman was because his back was broken; cause he had fucking amensia; and because of Superman becoming a crony for the government plus Jason Todd's death (Dark Knight Returns Jason Todd death not canon Jason Todd death).

With that fucking said I like the first two Nolan Batman films even though they aren't "muh Batman". I also like Man of Steel and Batman v Superman even though they aren't "muh Batman" and "muh Superman".

Because film is a different fucking medium than comics. When Batman and Superman were first created as characters there was never any intention for those two characters to meet. When Batman v Superman was made the whole fucking point was for those two characters to meet. Telling a story about Bruce regaining his way via becoming the Ubermensch and Superman accepting his god-hood by embracing his humanity is an interesting take on both characters which I enjoyed.

But then again I can appreciate stories which aren't "muh x". Unlike you.

>>82304739
>No he doesn't.
>He also doesn't have shit for proper motivations.

How does he not? He tries to save people but there are complications.

>Nah. Cynicism =/= realism.

I don't think it's cynical to acknowledge that Superman would be a highly controversial figure.

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>>82296208
>>82296240

Captain America is a Super-solider. Superman isn't.

Superman wasn't created to literally fight Nazis. Captain America was (both in and out of canon).

They represent very different things even if they're both consider "patriotic superheroes" when in reality neither actually are.

Also Superman isn't an anachronistic Superhero while Captain America is. Even though they were both created in the New Deal Superman's origin keeps moving further ahead in time to keep him modern. Captain America is a representation of the Golden Age of America now put into a different time.

Like do you guys actually read comic books?

>>82292927
how would this make the moie more interesting, except for those who want a comic book character to be the father they wish they had had when they were kids?

>>82305061
>Also, Batman doesn't stop being Batman for 10 years cause his not-girlfriend died.

I did say he went overboard, and I won't even try to pretend to defend TDKR except as an excellent source of memes.

However,

>Batman doesn't become Batman so he can impress a fucking character that was in like literally two floppies (out of thousands)

He doesn't in Begins, either. Rachel made him realize that he was being an idiot in thinking that his suffering and his parents dying was somehow the end of the world when people like Joe Chill killed people like Thomas and Martha Wayne every single day in Gotham. She was more like a final push then an actual impetus.

Yes, Rachel Dawes was plucked from obscure Batman lore and turned into a major character for the purposes of the film. But she's basically just meant to be a stand-in for every love Batman has ever had in the comics but couldn't have because Gotham and the mantle have to come first.

Similarly, Rachel dying in The Dark Knight is just a stand-in for everyone in the comics close to Batman who has ever died so that we can get that same level of emotional impact within the film medium.

Again, I won't even bother trying to defend The Dark Knight Rises - it's a bad film and a disappointing-at-best conclusion to the trilogy. You're right, Batman's character is completely mishandled in that, up to and including him quitting being the Bat for X many years simply because of Rachel's death.

But Begins and Dark Knight were "muh" Batman, or pretty close to how I'd always read him in the comics which, admittedly, most of the Batman comics I've read are the ones surrounding Knight Fall/Knight Quest/Knight's End, from about Bane's first appearance to about when Bruce left Dick as Batman for awhile whilst he took care of some other stuff. I'll admit that the greater part of my love for Batman as a character comes from the 90's Animated Series, with a dash of 60's Batman thrown in.

>>82305320
But Superman still maintains the idealistic morality that he shares with Cap, even if his own time of origin keeps moving up

>>82305320
I swear /co/ is illiterate.

"Personality". Look up that word, then compare Captain America's personality and Superman's personality and see what you end up with. The result, while not identical, is pretty damn similar.

>>82305382
Yeah, it's like Stuckmann's BvS rewrite in that it very inarticulately offers us what it thinks we want out of Superman.

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>>82301197
The one written by John when he was tripping balls. Jesus vomits swords and marries the earth and much much more

>>82305529
agreed. Captain america is superman done right.
That is to say, caps doesn't have an autistic fandom(including writers) who want him to be a jesus figure and perfect mary sue.

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>>82305464
>comes from the 90's Animated Series, with a dash of 60's Batman thrown in.

Side note, OVERWHELMINGLY my favorite Batman story in any medium, right here.

>>82305108
>How does he not? He tries to save people but there are complications.
That's not motivations.
>a highly controversial figure.
He's not controversial, everyone hates him save for religious fantastics (which would be the 1st people to hate him irl) and his girlfriend.

>>82305589
I want Superman to be a decent person with god like powers who just wants to help the world. I don't want him to be perfect.

>>82305634
>That's not motivations.
His motivation is that he's trying to do good, like his father wanted him to. But he's constantly frustrated by a world where moral calculus is far from simple.

>>82297675
>hen for a little bit he segues into being Booster Gold instead
Booster Gold: Hercules edition was great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrq9VqpaFpU

>>82305589
>That is to say, caps doesn't have an autistic fandom(including writers) who want him to be a jesus figure and perfect mary sue.

Oi. OP here, as well as this guy, >>82305464. Superman is my favorite superhero, bar none. It's *because* he's my favorite superhero that I hate BvS so much. MoS, too.

>>82305464

In Batman Begins the whole "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." Is not fucking "muh Batman". Like the only time he does something like that in the comics is in "Death in the Family". Also, in Begins unlike Death in the Family Batman didn't lead directly to the character's doom by destroying the breaks on a monorail.

Also, the "Manslaughter Man" applies in all the Batman films. During the chase in the Dark Knight Batman straight up kills some people. I can't remember which Burton film it is but Batman blows some dude up. None of these things are "canon Batman" things. Also Rachel Dawes representing Jason (and others close to Bruce) is not "muh Batman". Now that doesn't mean that the inclusion of Rachel was a bad idea per se (the issue with her inclusion is that Nolan doesn't know who to direct female actors, and his movies would pretty much all be better if he just put up a "Boys Only: No Girls Allowed" sign on his films), but nonetheless I don't have a problem with her representing those close to Batman dying.

Like I said in my earlier post I don't have an issue with Batman on film being different to Batman in the comics.

Oh, and I completely agree with you about The Dark Knight Rises. What the fuck is that piece of shit?!

>>82297102
You mean Marvel where they just released a hugely well-liked and critically acclaimed movie?

>>82293156
Seriously, it was a huge missed opportunity to not have Superman speak at the hearing.

>>82305753
I CAN'T RELATE TO THIS CHARACTER! HE'S TERRIBLE! HE NEEDS TO BE GRIM AND SERIOUS AND POSSIBLY CONSTIPATED!

>>82297146
All of the imagery was superficial. The movie itself was very shallow and superficial. The only people I've seen talking about it's depth are uneducated morons on Facebook upset that people didn't like their Batman movie.

>>82305739
>like his father wanted him to
Wait what?
His father only talks to him about the negative consequences of doing good and how his mere presence will change the world (not necessarily for good).
>But he's constantly frustrated by a world where moral calculus is far from simple.
It's simple as fuck: everybody is a cynical asshole who hates people with power out of jealousy and fear.
Except for background characters that don't say lines and are only there for religious imagery.

>>82292927
>mexico city

it's juarez, with this attention span i get why you didn't like this masterpiece

>>82305888
If the movie was shallow would you care to sum it up in a sentence?

>>82305922
>It's simple as fuck: everybody is a cynical asshole who hates people with power out of jealousy and fear.
>Except for background characters that don't say lines and are only there for religious imagery.

I don't think you know what moral calculus means.

>>82305964
Superman is sad, Batman is pissed, and Wonder Woman is also there

>>82296551
>Themes and plot points
that undermine the character and what he's supposed to represent in the movie
fuck stop defending the director of sucker punch

>>82305964

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is a 2016 American superhero film featuring the DC Comics characters Batman and Superman; directed by Zack Snyder and distributed by Warner Bros. Pictures, the film is a follow-up to 2013's Man of Steel and is the second installment in the DC Extended Universe; its screenplay was written by Chris Terrio and David S. Goyer, and the film stars Ben Affleck, Henry Cavill, Amy Adams, Jesse Eisenberg, Diane Lane, Laurence Fishburne, Jeremy Irons, Holly Hunter and Gal Gadot; Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is the first live-action film to feature Batman and Superman together, as well as the first theatrical film to feature live-action portrayals of Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Cyborg and the Flash; in the film, criminal mastermind Lex Luthor manipulates Batman into a preemptive battle with Superman, whom Luthor is obsessed with defeating.

>>82306002
Do you even pay attention when you watch a movie or what?

>>82306013
Have you even watched Sucker Punch? Be honest.

>>82306065
is there something inaccurate about that summary?

>>82306106
Only in that you didn't explain anything. Like a history textbook that says "Stuff happened"

>>82305803
>In Batman Begins the whole "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." Is not fucking "muh Batman".

Yeah, I'll give you that one. I've always been pretty adamant about the idea that Batman is, fundamentally, a crazy person and is actually psychologically incapable of killing someone or letting someone die (though he can prioritize when need be). So that bit disappointed me.

BUT - he otherwise sticks to it as closely as possible, so I'm willing to allow Nolan that slip.

>During the chase in the Dark Knight Batman straight up kills some people.

I don't remember seeing any definite deaths, and the character is otherwise so adamant about not killing people in both movies (except Ra's) that I'm willing to suspend disbelief and assume that no one died.

> I can't remember which Burton film it is but Batman blows some dude up.

Oh, Burton Batman outright kills people all the damn time, but Burton Batman never claims to have a no-kill rule and also makes sure to answer the fundamental question about a Batman willing to kill:

>Q: In a world where Batman is willing to kill, how can The Joker survive?
>A: He can't.

The Burton and Schumacher films are otherwise good enough on their own that I can enjoy them. Unlike, for example, BvS.

(When watching Batman & Robin, I imagine that no other Batman IP exists except for the 60s TV show, and that B&R was supposed to be a 90s reboot of that, and not a comic adaptation. It makes the film amazingly watchable. Plus it's goofy fun even without that).

>>82305998
Alright, what difficult moral decisions did Superman have to take? And by that I mean more difficult than your typical "do I save the girl or do I save the world" usual superhero shtick.
>inb4 he killed a guy because the plot forced him to in a contrived way
That's barely a decision.
For the "moral calculus" to be actually an obstacle (a dilema), you need your character to make choices, not for him to be clumsily railroaded into making one decision over the other by the plot.

By the way you don't know what motivations are, so pot, meet kettle.

>>82306153
what is there to explain other than "Batman and Superman fight each other, then a Doomsday created by Lex Luthor"

>>82306095
Different Anon here.

I did. I remember watching the movie going "what the fuuuuck? Well, it lived up to its tagline of 'You will be unprepared'."

Or whatever the tagline was; it was something to that basic effect anyway.

I remember not really knowing whether it was good or bad since it basically seemed like a series of related music videos strung together without any real point or purpose, instead of an actual narrative.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the concept of things like non-sequential narrative and the like, but Sucker Punch is kind of a league of its own in terms of strangeness in that regard.

I can't say that I hate it, but I can't say that I liked it, either. One thing I can say is that if I worked for Warner Brothers and saw that movie, I'd say "keep this guy the fuck away from Superman."

>>82306218
>>82306218
>By the way you don't know what motivations are, so pot, meet kettle.

How do I not know what motivations are? I just said why he does what he does. It's not complicated. And Superman does make choices in this film, I don't know how he was "railroaded by the plot" except in the sense that he had problems set up for him.

>>82306295
Addendum. I did download the cover of "Sweet Dreams" used in the flick, if that adds anything to the discussion. Conversely ever since watching BvS I've been listening to the John Williams Superman theme over and over in an attempt to cheer myself up. Specifically this cut of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ohreiBenzM

Take from that what you will.

>>82306355
>I just said why he does what he does.
You said "he does good because his father tells him to do good", which not only is wrong but also not a proper motivation.

>>82306420
How is that wrong? He explicitly says that in the movie, and how is it not a proper motivation? Also he says he thought he was "here to do good." So he believes that's his purpose for being sent to earth in some spiritual sense.

>>82305964

Luthor uses public distrust to have Batman and Superman at each other's throats.

>>82306295
Sucker Punch is a pretty easy movie to follow, unless you're really hung up on what's real and what isn't. The fact is nothing in it is real it's a movie. It starts with the camera travelling through a proscenium arch.

>>82306562
Are any of you actually try to say what the movie was about or are you just going to continue listing plot points?

>>82306645
It's about Snyder trying and failing to answer a question others have done before and better

>>82306645

That's what the movie is about. All the jesus symbolism and discussions about what superheros mean in a cynical world are just dressing.

And poorly handled at that.

The movie loves to ask questions, but never bothers to suggest an answer. They just mumble and expect the audience to reach a conclusion.

Which is why these movies are so divisive.

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>>82306164
>I don't remember seeing any definite deaths, and the character is otherwise so adamant about not killing people in both movies (except Ra's) that I'm willing to suspend disbelief and assume that no one died.

And I'm ready to suspend disbelief that Batman didn't kill anyone (except KGBeast) in Batman v Superman. All those people just got horribly maimed, and suffering from brain injuries turning them into retards.

However, that isn't actually the argument I'm making, or that the film is presenting you with. Batman v Superman is presenting you with a Batman suffering from an existential crisis because of the arrival of Superman. Alfred whole speech about the arrival of gods and turning good men cruel. It's clear that up until the arrival of Superman Batman kept his no kill policy, and has returned to it at the end with his decision not to brand Lex Luthor in prison.

Also, thank you for having an actual discussion about the character and films even though we're on different sides of the fence regarding Batman v Superman. There is a woefully small amount of people actually willing to discuss the film on /co/ without name calling.

>>82306793
>The movie loves to ask questions, but never bothers to suggest an answer.

Yeah? That's kinda the point. Plenty of other movies have easy answers.