Official Arrow Talkback Thread #1

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I'm ready for another Felicity episode

this show sucks dick now

>>77556755
Tom. C'mon.

>>77556741
why do you hate yourself so much?

You could've at least posted the links.

Streams. (Updated and checked as of 10/07/15)

>Stream 1. (Link 1 works fine)
http://www.stream2watch me/live-tv/cw-live-stream

>Stream 2. (One link, THIS ONE IS THE BEST, usually comes online 10 minutes before the show starts)
http://willtvstream.wix com/willtv

>Stream 3. (Link 1 works fine)
http://www.time4tv.com/2013/10/cw.php

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>>77556630
>creates thread for hype
>doesnt post streaming links
You had one fucking job.

>>77556824

>implying i save streams for free OTA tv

>>77556741
I'm not

>>77556824
Best boy.

>>77556813
Just about to hit post.

>Team Green Arrow’s ongoing battle with Damien Darhk (Neal McDonough) is complicated by a shocking revelation. Thea’s (Willa Holland) bloodlust returns and she loses control in front of Alex (guest star Parker Young).

Together we make up for OP

>>77556871
>Thea's bloodlust returns
Feed me League mooks

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I started clapping along with the music when the willtv stream started up

>The Insider
i know this will sound like "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE", but fuck The Insider and their audience that gobbles this shit up

also, Kelly Clarkson looks like a fucking whale.

>>77556824
Where the fuck is Roy?

i need some flips tbH

Next week is crossover double episode, right?

>>77556871
>>77556813
>>77556630
By your powers combined you have summoned Captain OP is a faggot.

>>77556903
Week after that, next week there's a break

>>77556755
Well that is something it has in common with your mom anon kun.

>>77556871
>Team Green Arrow’s ongoing battle with Damien Darhk (Neal McDonough) is complicated by a shocking revelation.

I swear to almighty God, if Dahrk is Felicity's biological dad, I am dropping this fucking show and never coming back.

>>77556903
No. It's the week after that. I am not sure what is happening next week though....Thanksgiving specials?

>>77556926
Of course who are the fooling he is felicity father

>>77556824
>not [FLIPPING INTENSIFIES]
You had one fucking job.

More bike scenes than Modern Kamen Rider.

>>77556926
>
Sigh...you know that's how it is going to happen. That's why they made Lance and Felicity's mom a couple. To have that love triangle thing.

>>77556871
>Together we make up for OP
I never make OPs,so i just went through the archives for the links.Next time i'll keep in mind to get the episode summary too (if need be).

>>77556936

No episode for Flash or Arrow this next week.

>>77556926
Diggle's brother is alive and working for Darhk... it was in the preview

Oh hey, Laurel finally remembered she had the Canary cry.

Oh wow a cold open of a motorcycle chase. I've never seen that before.

>>77556936
Let's hope it's an Oliver cooking show.

based digg

Black Canary's fights are terrible

ADD SOME GODDAMN SPECIAL EFFECTS TO THE CANARY CRY GOD DAMN

I wish everyone wasn't too pussy to kill. It's really annoying.

>>77556954
I made this before he was flip master funk.

I love diggles helmet now

>>77556996

Oh I thought there was going to be something else considering that's already been revealed.

>Thea has an urge to kill people
>Oliver let's her carry a sword around

Why?

Thea has the stupid black eye makeup under her mask, but Oliver doesn't.

>>77556999
I hope they make dinah a meta

Katie looks good this episode, damn.

>>77557015
glad I'm not the only one who noticed

>>77557004
What would be in a "Green Arrow" drink? I feel like apple schnapps should be in there somewhere.

>>77557033
To feed

>>77557015
She looks fucking silly screaming.

>>77556926
>I swear to almighty God, if Dahrk is Felicity's biological dad, I am dropping this fucking show and never coming back.
The only sane solution i came up is that IF it has to be about Felicity,it'll be that her father is a high-ranking member of HIVE and he just knows him.

>>77557038
Yup

>>77557053
It's a silly fucking power

>>77557023
Ollie killed Ra's like nothing last season. I like the idea that they only kill when they feel they need to. Its like a perfect balance

>>77557046
Whisky with a hint of lime.

No wait, that's comic Oliver.

>Based Ray

At least he didn't 'just go' like Sara

Tropical island with conifers. That will never stop tickling me.

>>77557053
>>77557072
So is archery. Let's not split hairs here.

>Speed Weed

>>77557060
Seriously hope Felicity was the one is the casket. I want her gone now.

>>77557072
It look silly in birds of prey and smallville

Speed Weed

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>>77557104

Damn Slades son is sexy as fuck

>>77557093
This season's writers are on top of their game. I'd be surprised if they didn't notice the chemistry Routh and Rickards have together.

Thea romance Zzzzzzzzzz

>>77557127
I doubt tumblr will alout them together

>>77557123
>Slades son

Confirmed?

Does anybody remember when Oliver noticed everything about everyone?

Some days I miss season 1 of Arrow.

He did NOT just call her her codename in front of a civilian

>>77557144
Nice to hear Ollie's policies though.

There's Spartan, my favorite superhero.

No, not that Spartan.

>>77557145
Get out.

>>77557157

S1 gets some deserved flack for the first part, but once Merlyn gets introduced shit gets REALLY good.

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So, who do you think is kill at that end of this season?
Its pretty obvious that Laurel, Sara, and Diggle are safe. Everyone else is up for game. Predictions? I'm hoping its Felicity.

>>77557161
Speed is a nickname first

Ollie and Thea are secret superheroes. How are they such bad, bad, bad liars.

This camerawork is really good

>>77557174
Rwmember the hate brandon received last season

>Muh dead brother

WHAT A SURPRISE!

>>77557161
It's a family nickname, he's probably used to calling her that.

>the one person he unmasks is his brother, right after finding the truth about him
BRAVO

SPOOKY

>>77557186
>Still hating Felicity

Fuck off already.

>brother isn't dead

called it back in season one

>>77557186
Want felicity to be it but probably Lance.

>>77557186
>Diggle
>safe
kek
Mans plot lines are done after today

WHAT A TWEEST

What are the odds of running into his brother like that

>>77557161
he called her that since the first season, most people don't even know what her hero name is

>>77557199
No. I remember the aaaabbbbbbbbbbbbbsss though.

>>77557206
Since the pilot

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>>77557186

>>77557193
This episode is directed by James Bamford, the fight choreographer, if I remember correctly.

>>77557229
speedforce

>>77557186
It's Felicity, but they'll find another pit for her or something.

>>77557210
Yeah, I knew that shit was coming but man that was such an awful "coincidence"
Unless they've cloned the shit out of him or something

>>77557186
Captain Lance or Diggle

Could be Felicity's mom though I don't think Barry would give a shit desu.

haven't watched anything arrow related for a while, how shit is the season so far?

>>77557220
I only think he's safe due to him being added to the comics. I figure he's significant enough to stay safe at this point

>>77557237
Yeah

>>77557186
>hope
Felicity

>expect
Det.Lance

If it was Felicity then Barry would be more sad.There also Lyla that some spoileranon said would be but you never know.

>>77557264
>Yfw clones

>>77557186
It's obviously Lance. Barry didn't seem phased by the death, and Lance is the only member of Team Arrow that Barry has no attachment to

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>>77557229
What if Diggle is high?

Does anyone else think that this season is kinda spinning its wheels right now? They're wasting time fighting these "Ghosts" when they should be preparing to bring the fight to Damian Dark. I mean, I all they have to do is ask Detective Lance where he talks to Dark and they can get the drop on him.

>That Supernatural teaser

what

>Diggle is killed at the end of the season.
>His brother takes his place to atone for his sins
>It's revealed that Diggle's brother really did die, all of the ghosts are dead criminals brought back
> Season 5 is Zombie Slade

I don't want to watch Supernatural, but that episode actually looks kind of cool.

>>77557186
Thea, shes unstable as fuck... will sacrifice herself for good.

Jesus, why hasn't Supernatural been cancelled yet?

>>77557286
>implying Barry "Vibrating Hand Through Every Earth-2" Allen would give a shit about Felicity

>>77557229
Quick, Diggle, play the lottery!

>>77557281
Pretty good, actually. Sara's back and Felicity is being less shit. Damien Dark is a good villain

>>77557283
Sadly diggle got retcon out

>>77557283
Dig asnt been in a comic in monts
Felicity was also in at one point

>>77557281
Better than last season but still worse than Season 2.

>>77557072
It can look cool. Just don't make it look like you're flashing your fangs at everyone. Don't tense em up to damn much.

>>77557313
Supernatural has been shit since season 5

>He's a killer, but he's still your brother
Let's not do that shit again...

>>77557281
About half shit, half decent, compared to S3's 2/3rds shit.

Holy shit they actually brought back the plot hole where the ghost didn't shoot diggle while he was down

>>77557315
Because it's still the third most watched show on CW.

I demand Cardman returns for another episode

Who is this magical negro? Bloodwynd? Houngan?

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>>77557265
>>77557240
PLEASE NO!

kek, magic twigs actually worked

>>77557375
Some nazi baron. Blizz

>>77557348
But that episode looks good.

I love Darkhs office

Magic blackman is pretty cool. Better than whatever shit they were flashbacking about last seasons.

>>77557305
Not that far fetched for the show. Considering we had a manic depressed, alcoholic seven foot teddy bear back in season four and we are on season eleven. Just about anything goes on this show.

What is this dude's deal? The drug runner captain.

>>77557393
Baron Blitzkrieg

Hey daughter, need more mooks?

MERLYN

BARROWMAN!!!

>>77557419
Thank you

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Magic Sticks. Beating an army guy. Sounds familiar....

Hey looks, it's that douchebag they still haven't locked up.

CAPTAIN JACK

I am not sure if I am really attracted to Dahk's blue eyes or really scared by them. They don't look real.

WE DEATH NOTE THEA NOW

Hahaa what the fuck Malcom

inb4 the paedo will be white ... fat sjws will be happy.

Watch out Malcolm, Thea is going to call THE POLICE.

Merlyn has really overstayed his welcome. He was good at first but now I'm bored of the writers desperately trying to keep him relevant.

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>dressing in leather
>tying people up

>>77557315
Just remember that Arrow and even Flash will share Supernatural's fate, limping long past their prime.

That was terrible Felicity

>>77557375
Black Manta

>>77557305
>>77557313

Hey,you have to admit,Supernatural might have gotten shit but their comedic episodes were always top notch.

They need to stop doing the flashback after this season. They should change it up and do flash forwards

Who was that suspicious old woman that looked at Ollie?

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Fuck off pedophobes. Why is everybody so intolerant? I mean it's almost 2016.

>>77557475
I would kill for those shows to live that long.

>>77557471
Milking barrowman

Episode is now 10/10 thanks Barrowman

I see Merlyn has watched Stoker.

>>77557484
He made her giney tingle

>>77557393
>>77557419
They took a Nazi character and made him black?

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>mfw Thea breaks into the pedo's apartment and finds evidence to get him arrested.

HNNNGH CANARY

>Sleet 52

>>77557508
No idea why

>kill pedophile
expect a lot of outraged liberals hating this episode

Damn Laurel looks nice there.

>>77557508
Name only thing. Like Felicity or Jefferson Jackson.

>>77557526
>yfw liberal king Ollie shits all over Thea for killing the pedo

How has diggle not put together Andy is a deep cover argus agent?

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>>77557513
>mfw it's just loli

>>77557526
When the hell do real-life liberals actually support pedos?

>>77557486
Go away John Oliver!

Damn they remember digg newphew

so the ghosts half assed Lazarus zombies or homunculi with the souls of the dead in them?

>>77557513
inb4 it's Hal Jordan's house.

>>77556630
>Arrowbros
>Not Arrbrows

You done goofed

Diggle/Laurel when?

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>>77557544

>>77557526
I though people were throwing pedophiles and child molesters in different categories now

>>77557530
Agreed

>>77557508
Apparently the actor was so good they just cast him

>>77557526
Nah. Hating on kiddie diddlers seems to be the only thing that SJWs agree with with the general public.

Oh Darhk, what's your game?

HAHAHA

FINAL BATTLE

OLLIE VS DAHRK IN MAYORAL ELECTION

>>77557575
He is married

>>77557548
Because they want to have drama, but can't write it.

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>>77557600
I have some sad news for you, son.

>>77557551
When all those liberals got mad at the police for going after Catholic priests. Remember that? All those liberals?

So what do we think Darhks endgame is?

>>77557626
so?

>>77557612
>Season finale is them anxiously awaiting the results of the election with dramatic shots switching between Ollie and Dahrk

>star wars make-up commercial
Man, the world sure has changed.

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>>77557578
>filename
>subway commercial plays the Flying Circus theme

Oh Lord.

>covergirl Star Wars collection
Jesus Christ...

>That cosmetics SW ad
Holy fuck,totally worth it staying up late just for this kek.

MERCHANDISE FUCKING EVERYTHING

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>makeup is shilling Star Wars now

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>>77557508
>>77557524
>>77557595
LOOK AT ME. I'M THE NAZI NOW

>>77557641
Threesome that works

Star Wars makeup. They are really going all the way with the merchandise.

>>77557633
Maic

My dad just complained that heavy handed insults like that don't exist in the real world.

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>Covergirl Star Wars collection
Well, that's a thing that exists now

>>77557633
That was clearly a blueprint for a motherbox he had

>>77557633
shits and giggles, also just making a place he can call home away from The League constantly trying to kill him

>>77557526
Priests aren't typically liberals, friend

>>77557612
That would be genuinely clever and more interesting across a season.

Darhk is a better personality and politician than Oliver.

>>77557633
They already figured it out. Kill the city to use it as a base of operations

There will be a shitload of clearance Star Wars shit in a few months

Cover Girl Star Wars make-up....I like the idea of some fanboy going, "Awww, what the fuck. You mean I have collect that too? Dammit. Let's go to the make-up counter."

>>77557645
>>77557650
>>77557653
Would you rather have the homo cereal commercial?

>>77557645

Seriously, I am fucking dumbfounded.

I thought the merchandising push was ridiculous around the premiere of Revenge of the Sith, but this is even worse.

If Black Reich Man has truth serum magic why the fuck didn't he use it on Ollie when they first met

>>77557650
You can thank Disney for that.

>>77557630
Yeah, that's not a SJW post. It was written by a white man.

>>77557707
At least theyre selling something that isnt stupid, like Star Wars makeup

>>77557707
Soup anon you leave based cereal out of this.

>>77557685
>LOL ALL PRIESTS FUCK LITTLE BOYS AMIRITE

Fuck off, fedora.

>>77557720
Whose to say he didn't...? ;^)

>>77557720
probably some retarded cost for using it, magic always has a cost and all that shit

>>77557707
>homo
I don't see the problem

>>77557707
Don't really care about SW at all,i just find all of that too funny.

>>77557752
you sound stressed, priest anon. Maybe summon a concubine

God Felicity shut up

>remember the last time you tried to take down an evil organization from the inside

you mean like how it worked?

Oh no they are gonna kill bitch tits man

>>77557791
Much better than last week

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>Felicity lectures

and people say Flash's dialogues are bad

Has Felicity lost weight? She had the most juicy butt and thighs. Now they've gone missing.

oh fuck this is some kinky shit

>Felicity listing off every stupid idea Oliver's had
Real funny. I wonder when Oliver's going to get to return the favor?

>>77557771
Of course you wouldn't, you degenerate.

>>77557752
Even beyond that, not everyone who is attracted to kids acts on.

Some people are intensely guilty over something they've never done.

You now remember Billy Wintergreen

take your whipping like a man you pussy

be thankful you aren't getting shot or magic'd

>Stephen Amell will never whip you

>>77557816
>>77557813
I miss diggle as the voice of reason

>>77557827
You sound triggered my friend.

HO SHIT THEA

Well this can't be good the campaign.

Thea is such a rascal.

>you will never be tied up and whipped by Oliver Queen

How come none of the uniforms are actually uniformed with their camouflage design?

Well that was quick.

Now that's a way to turn someone down.

>black nazi forcing white dudes to whip each other

It's like pottery.

Also THEA SMASH

HAHAHA JUST

Fuck, Barrowman was right. I was hoping he was just full of shit.

THEA SMASH

PMS much

WOAH THEA WTF

>attempted murder
>no repercussions gonna come from it

>Black guys turning away from whipped honky and not keking uncontrollably

Immersion broken

>you look like the kind of girl where no means yes
that is the most rapey thing I've ever heard

>tfw Roy'd Rage is an STD

>beats the fuck out of a guy just for hitting on her

Wasn't she just complaining about how long it's been since someone hit on her/

I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOUR BROTHER DIG!!!

THEA SMASH

Death flags

>>77557877
They all were required to buy their own uniform.

>>77557904
it works more then you think, you just have to choose the most needed/emotionally fucked girl you can to use it on

>>77557897
well... she will end up in a coffin in 6 months

>>77557912

lmao stop victim blaming

she's allowed to joke around

>Thea will never smash you

>at least not this week
Meta.

>>77557912
she hit back :^)

Nigga stop, we already had a heartfelt moment. Stop.

Oh thank God.

>>77557904
Well, they had to make a guy where the audience would go, "KICK HIS ASS, Thea!"

>>77557906
I see what you did there and I like it.

>>77557912
>you look like the kind of girl where no means yes

That's not "hitting on" someone.

I'm really digging this broship between Ollie and Diggle. I mean, it's always been there, they just never showed it.

>Your compliance will be rewarded.

So Thea won't attack someone for being a pedo but she'll attack them for being attracted to her?

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>Thea on Larzus pit
>Roy on Mirakuru

What would their sex life be like?

YOU DONE FUCKED UP NOW

What was that camera work?

they trying out a new camera for the fights this episode?

>>77557937
"Dammit, Chip. That design is awful. I thought we all going to the Army/Navy store."
"But this one was ten dollars cheaper at Target!"
"You utterly cheap bastard."

>>77557993
Amazing

Dodge

Holy fuck that looked so fake

>>77557993
hellish

>>77557993
They would rip each other's faces off as they orgasomed.

>>77557976
What show have you been watching?

DAT SWEEP

>>77557992
Anon, what part of bloodlust sounds rational to you?

This camera work is fuckin cute

HO SHIT THIS FIGHT IS AWESOME

haha holy shit that guy's fucking dead

wow that commercial break was really abrupt

why dont the hive henchmen have interesting bee themed costumes instead of generic mercenary outfits?

THAT WAS AWESOME

>>77557993
taking turns raping each other

> stabbing someone with an explosive arrow
This kills the mook

>>77557993
read the oglaf comic about the guy who humps buildings and destroys them.

HOLY FUCK DIGGLE

>>77557993
probably similar to klingon copulation, alot of broken bones

not bad choreography ... SHIT CAMERA WORK.... WHAT THE FUCK?

WHO THREW A GRENADE????

>>77558064
What the fuck Reverse Flash?

>>77558064
Fuck off dick

well isn't that convenient for andy to take off his mask lol

>>77558064
rape isn't funny, dick.

>>77558064
You can rape me anytime Harry

Bamford is actually a pretty decent director. Episode has looked pretty neat so far.

I'm having a lot of trouble paying attention to any of this.

>>77558056
>Team Arrow vs. ZECT troopers

>>77558064
You're a dick, dick

>>77558064
You're a dick, Harry.

>>77558064
Dick

>>77558064
Stop being a dick, Harrison

>>77557992
I think it was the same guy

He seemed like the pedophile type , kind of a greasy, Jewish air about him

>>77558064
Hey Wells! You're a dick!

WTH was that? Throwing an arrow so hard it does the whistle noise and gets planted in deep. Oh, God, I don't think this show has made me laugh as hard as I am doing so now.

>>77558040
...Arrow?

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I really wish those asteroid commercials would stop.

>>77558036
>They would rip each other's faces off as they orgasomed.
Reminds me of the opening scene of an older Supernatural episode,it was around Valentine's day too i think.

Pls arrow, re-hire the fight choreographer from season 1

>>77558076
To hide the lack of choreography.

>>77558095
Yeah, I don't know what the hell it is but I'm hardly even looking at the screen. The episode doesn't seem boring, but I just can't seem to look up

>>77558064
The other Wells was evil but you're just a diiiiiiick.

>>77558021
It was bring your kid to work day. Hey, Tommy is trying. He's only seven. Back off.

Honestly I'd dress like diggle if i went out fighting crime

>>77558107
Merlin probably put him up to it.

>>77558157
lmao

Diggle's arms are amazing.

Just sayin'.

>>77558035
>My name is Thea Queen
>After five hours on a hellish bed i only have one goal
>To slay this mirakuru D

EIGHT YEARS

Gezz Diggle, you are going full bitch tonight.

>>77558140
can't they get some fighting choreographer to work for free in order to improve the overall feel

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>Deathstroke comes back roided and tries to smash Thea. They destroy everything.

Diggle I was hit with a grenade earlier just sayin

>>77558188
EIGHT YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>Diggle the Felicity of this season

Why?.

Angry Digs is best Digs

>Hey ... gotta tell you something ..

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>>77558188
>>77558228
Those 8s

>>77558232
>my brother is a traitor to his country and his family
>lol fgt y u mad

>not telling her he did it

this will come back on him won't it?

>>77558232
He's just pissed off at his brother. He feel betrayed, and with good reason. Plus, he just gave Ollie the idea to fight Dahrk in public.

>Barry doubts himself
>Oliver getting in bed with the villain

What a coincidence that they'll meet next week to exchange life lessons.

>>77558264
>literally saw mind-control in front of their eyes

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>>77558188
>>77558228
>>77558258
These 8s

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>Ray/Felicity is starting back up.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK THESE WRITERS!

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>>77558232
>Diggle the Felicity of this season

>>77558279
I thought that started the first week of December.

Wait can Ray shrink on his own or does he need the suit

>>77558279
Man, imagine if darhk was a girl

>>77558315
Na, just LoT set-up

>>77558315
It can take her from Ollie

>>77558264
>>77558272
>>77558317
Diggle gets to be a whiny little faggot but Felicty has to remain pure

/co/ is such a double standard hellhole.

>>77558334

He needs the suit.

>>77558315
a female olicity fan is a co-writer ...

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>>77558256
You have no idea.

There's a reason why people think she might be Zatanna.

Damn it Laurel, it's a completely different situation! Stop comparing everything to your zombie sister!

>>77558315
That's what should fucking happen, Oliver and Felicity have 0 chemistry together

>>77558357
This is recent an has only last two episodes and a half. Felicity acted irrational the whole goddamn 3rd season. Tommy was a bitch too in season 1

>>77558381
Co-show runner, to be precise.

>>77558357
>My brother is working for a villain so fuck that nigga
Diggle is not being whiny, he's just being a hard ass

>>77558315
You are literally everything wrong with Arrow.

>>77558382
Thighs,THIIIIIIIIIIIIGHS.

>>77558382
What's her character name? I missed it earlier.

>Still no Arrow/Atom trickshot

It's like they're asking Marvel to beat them to it.

>>77558409
Tommy? ;_;

>>77558357
Diggle is pissed off with good reason. Felicity was whining about how much she loved Oliver for the entirety of Season 3. Plus plenty of people called out Diggle for being incredibly pissy at Ollie for putting Lyla and Diglet in danger.

>>77558345
With those unnaturally blue eyes, jeeze. Now I actually want to see a rule 63 dark.

>>77558449
Oh god it's been a while Mommy ;_;

>>77558445
Diana I think

>>77558412
still not making it any better ;-; Some Olicity cunt and Guggenshit. I can't really think of what LoT will be, keeping in mind that Guggenshit is somehow involved.

>>77558446
Gotta save something for the crossover or opening of LoT. Besides, they have so much time to incorporate it if they wanted to.

>>77558446

They can't on the TV budget

>>77558482
WONDER WOMAN CONFIRMED

>>77558471
Ronny? ;_;

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>>77558381
>>77558412
>This fucking information
I had a good run

>>77558496
No
Eddie;_;

>>77558486
But Muh Flash. Is it really that more expensive to have Atom Trick Arrow than to have Grodd scenes and King Shark for 30 seconds?

>>77558089
yes it is

>>77558382
GOOD LORD. Why couldn't she be playing Wonder Woman?

>>77558483
Reminder that Olicity showrunner wasn't involved in Season 3. Now she is involved in Season 4 and it's been better that Season 3 in every way. Not to mention that we even got hints of Olicity ending.

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>>77558446
>Still no boxing glove Arrow

>Thea accidentally kills Andy

>>77558483
>still not making it any better
Oh believe me, I know.
I'm just hoping they're just doing for the ratings and eventually move one; Amell even recently tweeted that he retracted the 'some things are off the table/never gonna happen'.

That rooftop leap shot was REALLY good. Webm when?

>>77558445
She's only been credited on IMDB as "worker". I missed it earlier if she's been named.

She IS a love interest though. They banned her from talking about the role too much, but she dated Ollie at some point.