I'm genuinely curious about this; Is this the only way this

>I'm genuinely curious
>thread on 4chan

Mmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmhhhhh

>>64376410
Lots of people prefer a style far over others.
He is so consistent with this style, I would bet he can pull off some very good work. You din't get so damn consistent with any style without having at least an inkling of talent. He just doesnt like using other styles.

>>64376410
He would have failed art school if he couldn't draw any other way. They make you draw nudes and shit.

>>64376410
He probably can draw differently but isn't highly skilled or finds it too much work. And once you've been working within a certain style for a long time it gets harder and harder to draw differently.

>>64376557
Also this. I don't know if he had formal training, but I went to art college and you are taught numerous disciplines in any decent one. Still though, there were people who worked in a very limited style like this and still made it through. Even their life drawings look a little odd.

>>64376640
Pen went to cal arts, and I'm assuming they teach you to some degree, so I imagine Pen can draw decently. But nowhere has he ever been show to draw anything outside his style. No portfolio work or anything like that.

>>64376518
haha O WOW.

>>64376640
>And once you've been working within a certain style for a long time it gets harder and harder to draw differently.

This is true. I can draw well myself, but I've pigeon-holed myself because I stuck to drawing in one particular style. I'm good at what I do, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to be able to do more varied stuff. I should probably get on that.

That said, I look at Pen's stuff and wonder how he can be satisfied drawing like that if he can indeed do better. Personally, I wouldn't be satisfied, but different strokes I suppose.

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>>64376735
Then it's a good bet that he can draw in other styles, but probably doesn't on purpose. There was one guy in my class who's life and object drawings were incredible, but pretty much any other time he drew simply like that. Partially because he could bang out an assignment like that in an hour whereas if he worked to do something more realistic it would take a lot more time.

That's pretty common for working artists. Take a look at Mercer Mayer, he's most known for his quite simple cartoony children's books. But he's actually an incredible artist and his earlier books are gorgeous. Unfortunately, you can't make a lot more money off a beautifully illustrated fairy tale as you can off a simple set of cartoons. So if you're trying to make a living through it a more simple style is practical.

A sad reality.

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Ever seen how Matt Groening really draws?

The truth is that even the lowliest Korean inbetweener working on their shows can draw circles around them.

>>64376557
Alex Hirsch also went to calarts, but he cant draw for shit.

>>64377296
The drawing on the left looks way better to me than the one on the right.

>>64377323

Oops, somehow erased a sentence before posting.

I'm not making a dig at either Groening or Ward. The simple truth is that drawing skill isn't being valued by the networks, the studios, the schools, or even the audience. It hasn't been for a while, and their success is simply a reflection of that. They're good in the areas they need to be good at. Drawing isn't one of them.

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>>64377417
Really?? Wow. Well, to each their own I guess. Personally I couldn't disagree more, but everyone is drawn to different things. I still think he's a good artist when working in that style, I just much prefer his more illustrative work.

>>64377421
>They're good in the areas they need to be good at. Drawing isn't one of them.

I concurr. Pitch a good enough idea and let the korean monkey artists/money hungry executives do the rest of the work.

>>64377323
And yet that Lisa looks more alive and interesting than anything currently on the show

>>64377504
>>64377421
>>64377323
This, you ever seen House of Cosbys? By the same guys that did Rick and Morty. Art is horrific, but its pure comedy gold.

>>64377323

It's kinda weird how his drawing style of the Simpsons never really left its early days and is reminiscent of the earlier seasons.

I guess it was all the other artists that touched them up to what we saw at around Season 11.

>>64377504
>>64377537

I do see this as a problem, though. While they are good at what they do, the way these kinds of shows dominate the US TV landscape relegates animation to being a sub-genre of comedy, rather than the other way around. This started with animation outsourcing. There are fewer ladders for the visual-minded animator to climb, so they go into other fields like games or movies, or specialize in visual development/design.

It has been a while since I've seen truly awe-inspiring animation from Western toons. There's still great design and color and writing.

So is Rebecca Sugar the only current show creator that can actually draw?

>>64377789
Skyler Page was pretty good... what a waste.

>>64376475
Fuck you Linkara.

>>64377784
Animation is just too damn expensive to make high quality for tv I'm afraid. The only way they can get away with it is with a style that's cheap to produce and making it a comedy because no one wants to watch a badly animated drama.

>>64377504
>money hungry executives
>work

>>64377789
Star versus Forces of Evils artist is pretty legit.
John F. Ryan is getting a cartoon in Nick later this year.

>>64377784
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxvB630ehYQ

>>64378249

What I would give for a cartoon like Ping Pong, but with a sport Americans actually cared about.

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>>64378501
Daron Nefcy isn't an amazing artist, technically. I'd say she more supports the 'artistic skill is not a requirement for showrunners' argument... but maybe it's borderline...

>>64378622
Thurop Van Orman is another person I can't decide how to place.

>>64378622
>>64378658
They have both artistic skill and a style that's easy to imitate and animate. They're pretty much perfect for television animation.

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I think a lot of people are confusing complex art = good/better art. A lot of animation has simple styles so that it can be accomplished for tv but it is obvious in many shows that the people working behind the shows try to put in as much detail into a simple style. Look at the backgrounds in Adventure Time and Gravity Falls. Adventure Time has a lot of outfits for multiple characters as well. Just because something looks simple doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of artistic talent behind it.

>>64377296
Holy shit what happened to him?

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>>64380878
>comparing Adventure Time's solid color flood fill shitfest "backgrounds" to the desktop-worthy masterpieces of Gravity Falls

Fucking prole. You probably think Korra's blurry smudged matte paintings are good backgrounds too.

>>64381532
I'm an artist and AT has good backgrounds. Stop being a little bitch.

>>64377296
what's amazing to me is his style is visible in both

>>64381764
Show your art, Anon.

>>64377784
John K is right about this. I'd love another animator-centered cartoon. People are now used to Family Guy where it's like GoAnimate was used to match a script

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I can never place Ward.

Sometimes his work is simple and crude, but full of bizarre energy and life. It's the sort of thing that befits a proper cartoonist: he doesn't need hours-worth of highly rendered illustration if he can accomplish a certain level of charm and style with only a handful of ruddy lines.

Other times, (it's an older one, but pic related), it's as if he genuinely does not understand basic notions of structure, rhythm, or harmony and is simply scribbling.

>>64380878
Adventure Time really doesn't put much detail into anything. Which is fine, it's going for the notebook doodle/educational game look (at least it used to, that seems to have become very muddled now) and that works. But as you can easily see as the show wears on, it's not always a good idea. Hell, AT's a great example of how simple art can both enhance and detract from a show.

>>64380878
The background artists are different people than the creator or boarders, though.

Besides, animating figures is much harder

>>64381925
>I'd love another animator-centered cartoon.

Adventure Time has gotten talents like James Baxter, Masaaki Yuasa, and Graham Falk to create some truly strange, wonderful, animator-focused work.

>>64381942
Sometimes he's just scribbling.

>>64381994
While those episodes are grand, they don't make up the bulk of the show at all and are more like fun occasional sideshows than the main attraction.

>>64381942
I can perfectly understand what he's going for. That crudeness in that sketch embodies everything people liked about the pilot and first season of the show (but more so the pilot). It was incredibly childish, like a sketch done by a grade schooler in his notebook during math class. It's silly, it's poorly drawn, but it has all the charm in the world because it's honest and from the heart of a kid.

The problem is that other people decided to try to reproduce that charm and, of course, weren't as sincere and genuine as Pen, so now we got a bunch of shitty AT rip-offs that copied shallow elements like simple character designs, casual conversation voice acting, fights just because, etc, but miss the point.

>>64381994
They got James Baxter to do one small loop of animation, and the rest of the ep looked like garbage (and I love Adventure Time). Looked to me like Pen's art had actually degraded.

Graham Falk can barely even draw. But I think his episodes are neat.

One again Japan wins, since they have more studios that don't outsource the actual animation.

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>>64381532
The backgrounds are pretty good, anon. You obviously never pay attention. There's more to it than just the hills outside Finn's house.

>>64382151
Does Penn even draw for the show anymore? It doesn't feel like it has anything to do with him at this point.

>>64382151
>and the rest of the ep looked like garbage (and I love Adventure Time). Looked to me like Pen's art had actually degraded.
You stupid fuck, that's the korean animators, not the storyboarders.

>>64381764
show us your favorite AT background

>>64382287
Read it again.

>>64382227
I know you're trying hard to cherrypick, but that isn't a good background.

There is a whole lot going on, but none of it looks genuine, none of it looks alive. There is too much fucking clutter that it actually blocks you from taking in the scenery. It's like those CGI Goblin Town scenes in The Hobbit.

>>64382237
He's mostly just a story-writing dude. But very rarely he will work on a storyboard.
>>64382256
I said art. Pen drew most of the storyboard for that episode, and then the Koreans animated it. The ep had wonky drawings, like bad scary wonky. Maybe he was just trying to be as wacky as possible.

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This show has really pretty backgrounds that are really ugly at the same time. I dunno how they do it.

i would really like a "background" thread

>>64382423
What show is this?

>>64382443

Squidbillies

>>64382336
>but none of it looks genuine, none of it looks alive
That's what I'd describe that background as.

>>64377359
So did Butch Hartman.

Hmm..

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>>64376518
>Pen Ward does the same exact thing over and over
>"consistent"
>MacFarlane, Bibleman, Groening, or any other big cartoonist does their style with minor variants
>Rehash, recycle, repetition, etc

>>64382516
Hartman is good when he actually goes into comic hero style form. Plus he did that Crash Nebula thing, which was at least somewhat significantly different than his usual artstyle. Can't write for shit though and I think drugs melted his brain.

>>64382570
McFarlane and Hartman and the like work on tons of projects, not a single show. Pen Ward shows mastery over a single style: McFarlane showed an inability to move outside of it.

>>64382642
More like becoming a born-again Christian did

>>64382674
>inb4 fedora

>>64382516
A lot of Hartman's deficiencies are clearly more from lack of ambition than lack of talent. He's lazy and content.

>>64376410
No, he got into Calarts, for which you need an incredibly good a varied portfolio.

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>>64382060
>>64382111
What I don't understand is this:

I am an artist. I'm talented enough that I can basically pull off general realism, (maybe not photo-real, but pretty close.)

When I scribble, my understanding of art informs my scribbles. The things I scribble have a modicum of structure and form, because that's how an artist's brain works.

Those sorts of elements aren't present in Ward's doodles.

So, either:
>He's talented and is somehow willingly subduing his abilities in order to pull of a certain, specific aesthetic

or

>He's untalented and basically gets by on the verve he puts into his drawings.

I don't mean to hate on Ward. His stuff is likable and funny regardless. But I'm really not sure which one of those options it is.

>>64382674
Why can't it be both?

You'd have to be high on something to willingly join a protestant church.

>>64382660
Wasn't Penn Ward also a key person on Flapjack? That show had a really unique and pretty art style

>>64382336
>There is a whole lot going on, but none of it looks genuine, none of it looks alive.
those are very subjective qualities

>>64382693
He's subduing his abilities on purpose. That's part of what makes his better than so many of his knockoffs.

>>64382702
>>64382686
I'm just saying, Danny Phantom really changed after he went to a different religion. Instead of all of the ghosts being heavily implied as dead people they changed to straight up supernatural beings. The show really started going downhill around that time

>>64382674
lol

>>64376557
You don't know shit about art school do you?

>>64382570
Pen doesn't need to rehash his work, everyone else is doing that for him.

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>>64382690
or incredibly good connections

or incredibly jewish name

>>64382799
So are you gonna make some evidence-based arguments or

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>>64382693
>Either he's talented and is somehow willingly subduing his abilities in order to pull of a certain, specific aesthetic or he's untalented and basically gets by on the verve he puts into his drawings.

Or maybe he gave his boss the most confident, strongest handshake you could imagine.

>>64382745
If that's the case, then why is it that we only see crude, artless doodles from Ward?

If he's talented, then why don't we see work befitting a properly talented artist coming from him?

Again: not hating, just questioning.

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>>64382863
oh yeah, let me just bring up a few articles on smokinggun.com ....

you fucking idiot, these people wouldnt still be in business if there was evidence, they are good at what they do

>>64382950
you sound like some conspiracy faggot

>>64382980
yes goy, nepotism is just a conspiracy

>>64382423
it's the lack of depth
they use nice textures and add plenty of color but there is no set perspective and some objects are defined only by shape, which in a drawing without perspective is useless.
Look at those trees, they may as well be laying flat on the ground. You actually see a lot of elements in squidbillies backgrounds that look like they could be 3d objects or they could be flat images painted on the ground.

>>64382227
The circular lighting on the candles are fucking awful.

>>64382904
Because we mostly only see his work on Adventure Time, which is his favorite style to draw in. And even that shows true talent even in its simplicity a lot of the time, there's a reason people liked it so much when it was first coming out. It's creative and evocative in ways that regular cartoons weren't at the time. You can't consistently do that accidentally.

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In a somewhat unrelated topic (now that we are talking about nepotism, luck and getting a gig in the /co/ industry): The columbian cartoonist VLADDO had a curious story about his first work.

He went to one of the capital's biggest newspapers unannounced and got in the same hour an appointment with the president of the building. After telling that he drawed cartoon strips for a living, the president asked VLADDO to do some example of his work in a paper while he went to another room (Vladdo noticed later on this was the bathroom) The president came back, looked at the scribbles and said: "Ok, you're hired."

Since then he has worked in many newspapers and magazines.

>>64378501
Are you talking about Pig Goat Banana Cricket? Cuz while Johnny Ryan is a writer, the designs are done by Dave Cooper.

>>64382336
Critics like you need to understand context. There's a point to the gross amount of lit candles cluttering the space.

It is basic in terms of color because productions like Adventure Time are considerably rushed compared to the work schedules of feature length animated movies.

But you're not bringing up any show with more inferior aesthetics than all of the stuff you see from Canada: 6teen, Total Drama Island, Johnny Test. Those shows are clearly riffing off of the popular Tartakovsky and McCracken.

>>64380878
Who cares about backgrounds, the animation and design are terrible.

>>64385194
Why are we talking about backgrounds. They don't have any bearing on the characters and their motion.

>>64385343
Please go to art school

>>64385284
Adventure Time used to have pretty good animation. I don't think the animation process was any different, but the storyboarders worked harder with the drawings that are used as the foundation.

Anyway, there's only so much that can be done with this process where all the animation is done overseas.

When you draw, you honestly don't put your 100% into every single thing you draw. The percents you DO put it, though, should reflect that whole 100% though

>>64385366
They're a layer behind the characters, drawn by their own team. How does that affect anything else?

>>64385497
>laughingartstudents.psd

>>64385284
I don't agree. There are many shows with simplistic designs that move well and have dynamic poses. Look at the animation in Superjail or Steven Universe. Both shows have simple character designs because it is very difficult to animate complex designs well on a budget.
>>64385497
Backgrounds contribute to the whole of the tv show. They are done in a style that reflects the character designs which is why Adventure Time has a really recognizable background art because it is in the same exact style. Shitty animation is always accompanied by shitty background art just look at Johnny Test.

>>64382705
Ward was only a boarder for flapjack

>>64385609
Being a boarder is super important on a show like Flapjack.

>>64385469
>you don't always draw 100% but when you do draw 100%, you draw 100%

>>64385728
The basics of what I'm saying:
Your simplified work should still reflect your greater knowledge in art.
You must go up before you can come down.

>>64385696
Alex hirsch was a boarder on flapjack

>>64385595
>There are many shows with simplistic designs that move well and have dynamic poses.
That's true, but why are you relating it to backgrounds. Background artists have a lot of time to do just a few still images. Those don't have to be simplified like character designs.

Adventure Time's original backgrounds were by Ghostshrimp. I wouldn't call his style simple.

>>64385853
So was J.G. Quintel.

>>64385912
And Alex Hirsch

>>64385863
I may have rambled in my post but the gist of what I'm saying is that the backgrounds and character designs have to match to make a cohesive look for a show. Adventure Time does a really good job at this because the characters look like belong in their environment.

>>64385939
Flapjack is like the top of the tree of influence for 2010's cartoons.

>>64385469
>I don't listen to what comes out of my mouth
>English isn't my first language

>>64386212
Answer me this: do you draw?

>>64386212
they explained what they said here >>64385839

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>>64386091
a lot of people complain about AT starting a bunch of modern cartoon trends, but it was really Flapjack and Chowder more than anything, they paved the way for creator driven shows with looser art styles.

>>64386253
He's saying that what you said doesn't make sense.

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>>64386253
Yeah. Not too well. I've drawn all my life, but I've been stuck looking at it as a hobby for years before I ever considered desiring to take it professionally. 25 now and plan on making some comics. But I've been working on story ideas, and I flat out don't believe in hiring out a partner to draw for me when I have nothing to show . I'm getting used to my style and forcing myself to draw what I'm not comfortable with. I have a plan, and I'm still in this ruddy experimental phase.

>The percents you DO put it, though, should reflect that whole 100% though
I was just confused by this, is all.

>>64386315
I guess you could blame AT for a trend in humor. Or Regular Show. Flapjack was more of a straightforward kids' show, it didn't have that same humorous detachment from its own fantasy elements.

>>64377359
How'd he make it in if he draws like shit?

>>64387523
well personally, I liked it but I dunno

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to look through the uploaded SU storyboards

>>64387523
Probably because she didn't storyboard it? Although she did the second one, and that was shitty too. It's just something that shouldn't have had more than one episode.

>>64387523
People started jumping ship on /co/ with season 3, man.

Every single talkback thread throughout that season was bitching.

>>64387726
Well, 3 was a decline from 2, and started with a big reset that everybody hated. But season 3 is still miles ahead of the current average.

>>64387859
Personally, I think season 4 is far better than 3

>>64387967
4 does have some masterpieces, since that was the beginning of the more "serious" era. 3 is transitional.

I think the reason Pen got into Calarts is that he had always been experimenting with animation. Whilst his drawings are simple and a bit messy, I've seen some of his animation which has good motion and rhythm.

>>64387586
>Now if you'll excuse me, I need to look through the uploaded SU storyboards
Shit, what? where?

>>64390734
Do you not know about stevencrewniverse?

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You know who's amazing. This fucking guy.

>>64386582
Regular Show is nothing like AT; RS is basically Beavies and Butthead for kids.

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>>64377296

>The refraction of light through the ice makes the top face look different

Goddamn, Mercer, how did I not know you could do this?

>>64388675

This is a thing that a lot of people are ignoring, I think. We can't see any of Pen's life drawings or anything, and he does have a pared down aesthetic (which I like, personally) but if you look at some of things he personally animated, you can tell he has a real knack for the ANIMATING part of animation. His stuff is really charming and fluid. That, paired with being funny and a good storyteller can be a good combination even if you aren't the strongest technician. I think Genndy Tartakovsky even claims that he was the worst technical drawer in his class at CalArts.

>>64398359

>I think Genndy Tartakovsky even claims that he was the worst technical drawer in his class at CalArts.

By that I meant that Genndy thought of himself as the worst drawer when he was in school. I have no idea if Genndy and Pen have ever met.

>>64386597
Jew Gold

>>64398359
I forgot the reasons why I liked the pilot, rewatched it, it's cute as fuck

>>64381994
Wasn't Yuasa's episode animated by the same Korean slaves as the rest of the show? That's not what I'd call "animator-focused".

animation student here. let me try to clarify some things

>can p.w. draw?

that's a loaded question which requires further explanation of the word draw but in this situation let's define it as the ability to draw cartoon characters and figures.

i haven't seen any of p.w.'s work that isn't in the super simplified style of A.T. but i also haven't really bothered to look much. judging solely by the fact that he went to cal arts, i'd say the likelihood of him being a decent draftsman is pretty good. however working in such a simple style for so long can affect his drawing skills. if his figures have defined anatomical features, his understanding of anatomy can with time partially erode. that's not to say that anatomy is the be all and end all of drawing, but the more complex a character's design is, the more skilled you need to be.

this could have been worded a bit more clearly but i hope it made sense if not im glad to try to answer and questions

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>>64377359
He's not THAT bad anon

>>64377359
If you're talking about that doodle he did for the opening post in the gravi-team falls tumblr. Then I'm pretty sure that was just a joke.

>>64376410
Ward is talentless hack, he's had big animation connection since childhood, his mother was good friends with Matt Groening and also involved with art community herself, just goes to show all it takes is connections not talent.