Soucing Loli Information

It doesn't even need to be sourced at first; dump all the information in from elsewhere and then work through for what needs citations

>>9459606
lolita comms aught to be a good enough source for style guidelines

>>9459698
Or GLB issues, maybe? Things translated from the original Japanese?

The problem with citations for this fashion is there aren't very many well-known sites that are seen as ""respectable" in wider terms that would work as sources I think. But I remember some really interesting academic translations that have been done that could work well

>>9459720
Yes, that would be perfect if you could find them

Read the Fyeah Lolita blogs
If I remember well, the author may have added references and photos to GLB.
Would be nice to cite her blog. It is one of the most referred to in the whole Lolita community when giving advice to newcomers

>>9459593
It is not Loli information
Call it the complete name, Lolita
We don't want confusing terms
It is not Loli, not Hentai, not anime

>>9459593
Why not start with the information and sources on the Japanese version of the page?

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ロリータ・ファッション

Might be easier to just translate chunks of it and put pertinent sections onto the English side.

My community had a little section about the origin of the fashion's name in their 101 presentation. I will dump it here and see if it helps. I didn't write this though so I'm not sure where else they got this information from.

Source: http://egl.livejournal.com/18952560.html
The name possibly came about from a different interpretation of the book, maybe as a misunderstanding. It's a fashion based off of victorian clothing meant for adult women, but to the public eye, makes the wearer "childish". Therefore the name Lolita was interpreted to be appropriate because it was meant to be given to "mature looking" young girls. In Japan, lolitas meant "a female that is actually an adult, yet still has childlike features and behavior" or "a very young girl who has not yet developed a hint of eroticism", which is opposite of Nabokov’s narrator’s meaning.

It also seemed like the fashion became a rebellion movement from the crushing pressure of adulthood in Japan. The work culture is incredibly tough and thus made a lot of people want to hold onto their youth and childhood (which also explains why a lot of anime is based in high school since it was the most common era of happy memories). Thus, some young adult's way of rebelling came about through wearing lolita fashion. This is likely related to how "kawaii"/cute became a huge part of Japanese culture.

>>9459762
That seems needless to me, honestly. 'Loli' is just short for Lolita in both cases. Or perhaps you'd like me to use Dolly for Dolores Haze? I doubt it would help, though.

The name is and always will be related to paedophilia from an outside perspective... so the idea is instead to make it an easily corrected misunderstanding... for instance, by making the Wikipedia page a decent source of information.

>>9459765
I hadn't thought of that, actually.

>>9459777
Everything should be useful.

I feel I should make something clear going forward, however; I am not a knowledgeable lolita and barely have any experience as one, so I do not feel I am qualified to put this information together in a good way myself.

I can try, but if anyone else feels they are up to the task I would appreciate it.

>>9459720
I've wanted to improve the Wikipedia page before but it's nearly impossible to cite. You can't use amateur translations on LJ or some girl's opinions on her blog as citations, but most of the "respectable" sources that have written about lolita have got it totally wrong.

>>9459756
You're not allowed to cite blogs on Wikipedia, or include first-hand research. The page always goes to shit because you can't cite ""peer-reviewed papers"" about a niche subculture, and asshole pedants start arguing that actual lolitas opinions are worth less than crap the media publishes.

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Has anyone read this book ?
I have seen it referenced in the japanese wikipedia.

This is the most accurate citeable reference I've found:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://web.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal111/Japan5.pdf

>>9461640
This might also be useful but I'm not sure if we can cite untranslated articles, or cite translations from Facebook (after all, without a way to check, anyone could write any old crap and claim it's a translation without people who didn't speak the language being any the wiser...). Append the following to Facebook:

abiba-champignon/translation-where-have-all-the-lolitas-gone/1081884721933943

Citing is the tricky part --- but between doing my real job and taking a break I started plunking in info / creating a layout for something more updated.

I'll work on it more tomorrow.

Also - Picked up about 30 of the more recent GLBs on a trip recently - Anyone interested in helping translate them as I scan and archive them? I'd like to build something really great over the next year.

Are there any other niche fashions with a decent wikipedia entry? We might want to check them out and see what kind of sources they utilize.

>>9463913
Gothic doesn't, but punk has a huge article for just the fashion. It doesn't even touch really on the music outside the influence musicians have had on the fashion.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_fashion

Are books like Japanese Goth and Style Deficit Disorder not good enough as sources?

>>9463913
Goth and punk do but they're not niche, there's been so much writing about them already since they're tired to a music scene.

Lolita is the biggest jfashion, none of the others have decent articles either.

>>9464001
They're fine.

This V&A article should be a good source too:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/j/japanese-street-style/

>>9459720
>The problem with citations for this fashion is there aren't very many well-known sites that are seen as ""respectable" in wider terms that would work as sources I think.

http://www.cosplaycrisis.com/2016/08/12/lolita-ling-substyle/

The name stems from too many porn ads on google ad cents if you only use "lolita" and "jfashion".

>>9464646
Pretty sure this also falls under the category of "essentially just some girl's blog".

Theres a reason this shit isnt updated. I've been working on it for 2 days now and some bot undid everything and emptied it because of "not sourced/not encyclopediad"

LIKE IM WORKING ON IT. DAMN IT.

>>9461128
what book is this?

>>9467087
セカイと私とロリータファッション

>>9459593
Hi OP! I'm sort of interested in helping out. Unfortunately, I won't be much help for articles in the Japanese language.

However, I could be of some help creating the English version for Misako Aoki's article. She has one in Japanese and in Spanish, but not in English.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9D%92%E6%9C%A8%E7%BE%8E%E6%B2%99%E5%AD%90
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misako_Aoki

>>9467083
You may want to discuss the article with the related WikiProjects. Talk page shows it falls under the umbrella of WikiProjects Japan and Fashion. Try to use the Sandbox so you can add information to the real article at once instead of one edit at a time.

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>>9467199
This is my first time really playing with editing Wiki's. :( I'll look into it more, but I'm kind of burnt on it at the moment to just have everything I had been plucking away at deleted.

>>9467242
I glanced through the past edits and a lot were unsourced. This page will be helpful in the future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources

IMO, being a newbie to Wikipedia now is difficult than what is was 10 years ago. Still like lolita fashion, learning to write an Encyclopedia page from the ground up has a learning curve. Don't give up.

>>9464314
Lolita is tied to kawaii culture and visual kei

>>9464001
I think I have one of those books, I could scan some pages if that would be useful (I know nothing about how wikipedia works)

>>9467942
But VK also don't have much quality stuff written about them *in English*.

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Are interviews/books like pic related a real source by wiki standards?

>>9472857
Think so.

>>9463893
I could probably help translate, but I'm not sure how much of that will be factual historical information like what OP is looking for.

>>9473068
I have misako's book which has a history of Lolita fashion, tough I can not scan it in the next few weeks, but it would be really awesome if someone could translate that too. It would probably take quite long tough, maybe others want to help. I can scan this >>9472857 interview and post it on my journal, the files would be too big to post here. He links music, goth, and Lolita together tough.

I thought the Wikipedia was not that bad, besides shoehorning otome into it, but then I got to the "kinderwhore" part..

>>9472857
Yes. Look up WP:REF and input the source following their guideline. Also put down the page number.

Basically view a Wikipedia as writing a college report or study.

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>>9467242
morton salt girl needs to be a lolita mascot or something jfc

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>>9473068
It wont be for the Wiki page, but the Wiki page is just something that's supposed to be a tool for getting your feet wet.

The archival I want to build is going to be for future generations to be able to enjoy GLBs and have something to hold onto...if only digitally. when our Volume 1 is no longer in good condition, for people in 20, 30, 50 years who want to see what the fuss was about and where we started from... *nostalgic*

I get swoony over original documents and good scans of fashion plates from the 1800s so I imagine that in the future there will be someone else who will appreciate the leg work done and loose their mind at finding quality scans of a magazine from 60 years ago.

If you're interested in helping with archival / translation / building something, feel free to email me honeycakedreams at google and I'll add you to the notes that are growing. :)

>>9473336
I love this edit. 5 stars. <3
She's my patron saint.
"For when the rain falls, the salt shall fall. I leave it behind me, aware and pouring as I go but not being soiled by either down pour, for I am protected Her."

>>9461677
>I'm not sure if we can cite untranslated articles

I checked, and it is allowed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources

>>9473144
>I thought the Wikipedia was not that bad, besides shoehorning otome into it, but then I got to the "kinderwhore" part..

Can't we just remove that part? It doesn't have a source either.

What is the Japanese wiki like? If it's good, we can use that as source

>>9472857
do you have more pictures of this?

Now it says one of the influences is anime lol

What about the english GLBs?
Also, one quick look on google scholar turned up a ton of papers about Lolita fashion, including several which talk about the link between lolita fashion and the book Lolita being purely a shared name.
"Transcultural Flow of Demure Aesthetics: Examining Cultural Globalisation 21
through Gothic & Lolita Fashion" by Masafumi Monden, for example, seems pretty legit, as does "The Nationality of Lolita Fashion." "Lolita fashion: A trans-global subculture" focuses on British lolitas, and there used to be one out there by some economist about our dress-based economy.

Point is, there is a ton of stuff to refer to out there. Y'all are just lazy... As am I, desu

>>9492901
>Want history?
"Fashion Subcultures in Japan. A multilayered history of street fashion in Japan"
>Want to read more about the actual clothes of the fashion and the impact it has had on the wider fashion world?
"The Fashion Design Methods of Lolita Style" by Chen Gui.
>Novala fan?
Girliness Next to Godliness: Lolita Fandom as Sacred Criminality in the Novels of Takemoto Novala
>Interested in Lolita and feminism?
"From Dolly to Loli?: Female Empowerment and the Lolita Fashion Subculture" or
"THE POWER OF CUTE: REDEFINING KAWAII CULTURE AS A FEMINIST MOVEMENT" (It was in caps on the site, sorry.)
>Are you just really boring?
"LEGAL AND BUSINESS ARTICLE: A RESEARCH STUDY ON HOW INFLUENCE AND COST-EFFICIENCY AFFECT CUSTOMERS IN THE LOLITA FASHION MARKET"
>Want to find more papers and read a summary of everything?
"Rebels in Frills: a Literature Review on Lolita Subculture"

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>Great idea
>Too lazy to help
>Bump thread and hope someone else does it

Would this article be good enough as an example? There was nothing glaringly inaccurate in this one.
https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/shopping/how-to-dress-like-a-lolita-girl

>>9496951
> If you want to try a different beauty salon in Harajuku, pop in at Dea and ask for stylist Misako Aoki who is in charge of Lolita-style hair and make-up.
wtf?

>>9495754
I tried to change it but it changed back or my changes didn't get saved? I also want to change the Lolita wikia

>>9501351
Did you properly reference your sources?

This is going to be a clusterfuck of cringe unless experienced lolitas with solid sources who know how to write reference articles do this project.

>>9501379
Did you just scroll past all the good sources that were posted here?

>>9501379
Of course I saw them posted here but I'm not holding much faith that they will get to the Wikipedia page correctly with a coherent text narrative. Too many fingers in the pie.