Which subculture is more inclusive, goth (actual goths) or lolita?

>>9047174
Your mistake is thinking that lolita is a subculture. It's not. It's a fashion and as such it has rules.

>as if this isn't b8 though

All of the goths I know say that goth is way worse and very exclusionary.
Link to this article or I won't believe it.

>>9047174
>I read an article about "ita" lolita that had a bunch of exclusionary shit, such as not being able to be fat, black, have mismatched outfits, non-brand oufits, etc.
you sound like you are baiting or retarded because no comm actually thinks this way

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>>9047183
>that goth is way worse and very exclusionary.

I've been a goth for more than 25 years, and have never encountered people who were exclusionary.

Elitist, pretentious arseholes, yes. Exclusionary? no.

Did you mistake one douche bag's opinion as fact? The only thing in that list that's actually ita is being mismatched.

>>9047174
Was this 'article' actually a blog post from someone who insisted that shorts and a frilly bow made her a lolita at heart?

Goth, hands down.
Lolitas are way worse. I've never had an issue with other goths being nitpicky and elitists.

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1453076939?fr=rcmd_chie_detail

There's the things that stood out for me.

Here's some:

・「厨ブランド(中高生向けの安いメーカー)」と呼ばれるブランドのアイテム

>cheap brand

・下品な笑い方

>loud laugh

メガネ

>glasses

肥満体型

>fat

・ブサイク

>being physically ugly

I'd love to know the goth side of this.

>>9047417
I feel like japanese lolitas are way more brutal and exclusionary than western ones. In the western community it's more about dressing nice and trying to highlight your best features, probably because gaijin are more diverse. Still lots of drama and shit, but any lolitas I met offline are usually super sweet.

>>9047417
this isn't even an article. this is the japanese version of yahoo answers. it's just some random asshole's opinion, although I do agree with >>9047427 that from what people have observed via the internet, japanese lolitas seem to be a bit harsher than those in the west.

I find it hard to compare the two because first of all, lolita isn't a subculture at all. *some* people might be exclusionary, and there may be a lot of elitists or people who are a pretentious douchebags, but I don't think either community as a whole thrives specifically on being exclusionary as a spoken or unspoken rule.

>>9047220
not that anon and I don't want to dodge your experience either, but just because you haven't personally experienced/witnessed it (even in over two and a half decades) doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and different parts of the world are likely going to have communities with different "rules" and expectations and norms. also consider that you may not personally witness any exclusion yourself if you fit the mold (or are surrounded by people who do) of what particular people want to include. I agree that I don't think it's a widespread but yeah, not seeing or experiencing ≠ to not witnessing.

Lolitas probably give off the vibe of being specifically exclusionary because, aside from just general misunderstandings, it IS a fashion (again, not a subculture) with rules and guidelines. (none of which including looking a specific way aside from having a good coord)

>>9047417
...do you guys see who wrote that comment
...please tell me you see it, holy shit

>>9047478
I kek'd, although I don't think that's actually her. Says her name is micheline, wasn't rosaire's name lisa?

http://chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/my/beaurosaire

also, considering rosaire's background and her own appearance I doubt she would write a list like that. (especially saying not to be fat...last I checked she was pretty chubs herself)

>>9047498
She changed names constantly though, I did a little more digging and this could definitely be one of her many side names. Yeah she's fat, but afaik she's also a fat-hating bitch so I don't know

You can't really compare then. Goth is an aesthetic and fashion that grew from a music subculture and clubbing scene, lolita started as an aesthetic and fashion that has sort of developed a subculture. I think exclusion in lolita is more obvious because you can clearly see if you don't fit the mold of how to look, and that is the start of being a lolita. Goths as far as I experienced tend to exclude more for lack of interest in the scene and music, being a poser basically, or not being gothic enough in your overall lifestyle. I got out of the goth scene years ago though and apparently it's a bit more chill, at least where I am, and probably because it's dying a slow death here as everyone is getting older and there's less fresh blood coming in.

In my experience, goths have always been pretty accepting so long as one listens to EBM, heavy metal, industrial, or the ilk. Basically, as long as one doesn't complain about the music and actually enjoys it, they are fairly accepting.

Some poke fun at those decked in attire from Hot Topic and baby bat fashion, but I've never actually seen them absolutely bash someone for poor fashion sense, especially if they are younger teenagers and adults. If anything, they might try giving such kids their hand-me-downs. I've found them pretty accepting of even the young kids.

Goth doesn't really have rules though outside a basic aesthetic and music taste.

I can't really say the two are comparable.

I'm sure the goth scene has cliques in larger cities where actual clubs exist, but the online communities are very friendly.

Oh, I'll add it any harsh words are to be exchanged, it'll likely be about music. Even then, it's not normally directed at the person. They'll bash your music taste, but that's about as hateful as it gets and even then they appreciate being able to talk about music styles they explore.

I've never heard a goth cry, "Her corset is laced wrong, those boots are clearly knock-off's."

Even awful makeup won't normally draw much ire unless eyeliner is running halfway down your face.

Actually, drawing on the face with eyeliner is the only thing I've ever heard people complain about fashion-wise.

>>9047350
Lolitas can tend to be nit-picky on /cgl/ and btb, as well as other wank communities. But bitches too chicken to say that shit to anyone's face.

Furthermore, I find more in public to be more inclusive and rather helpful. It's just the batshit and entitled ones that tend to be the most outspoken online. This sort of attitude is really more present online rather than offline. Most people you are going to meet will either befriend you or quietly ignore you. The rare few will act like a catty child.

But we are dealing with girls who are often young, can't afford to buy things because they are for the most part, poor weebs and would rather spend their money on anime/games/pocky than invest in a good wardrobe. There's a lot of jealousy as well as some ego complexes going around. But for those that don't suffer from it, they are overall pretty damn chill.

>>9047174
jesus, summer already?

Goths are the bitchiest, most elite people ever. I am one, but I don't really get any kicks from being an elitist bitch when it comes to the scene.
But holy shit, if you walk into a Goth club and you don't request the right music, order the right drink or you're not wearing crushed velvet or PVC, you will get ostracized near enough instantly. And then you have to know how to dance. And you're a complete outcast if you're fat, like literally. I know we bitch about fatty-chans on cgl, but holy shit they have their other fat-enabling fatty friends around them. Fat Goth? Good luck getting friends lol.
It's definitely easier wearing another alternative fashion when you've already worn one for years, and I believe there's a great deal of crossover between the styles still (correct me if I'm wrong gulls).
That said, my life with Goth friends and Lolita friends are kept entirely separate. I would never wear fetishwear and heavy make-up to a Lolita event and likewise I would never EVER wear Lolita to the Goth club.

>>9054011
the cure
all black
red wine or kir

fuck edgy 2deep4u "goths" and god damn 95% of the chicks are insane

>>9054048
haha, is right
seriously though, I agree. There was this one guy once who genuinely told me he was "2spooky" to talk to me. It was so funny. IT'S ONLY CLOTHESSS wtf

>>9054011
Where I live there are Goth of all sizes - including a lot of plus sized ladies (esp. Elder Goths) and they have plenty of friends?! I haven't seen anyone be excluded for their size.

I've worn lolita to goth clubs before (but not brand because of the sweatiness, potential for spilled beer etc.) and no one gave me any shit. The only shit I ever get from goths is about being a lot younger than the average, but mostly they are grateful to see someone under 30 who knows the music.

Only points I agree with here are music and dancing related. Goth dancing is it's own specific artform!

>>9054325
I've gotten the opposite actually. Most goths I know range from "chubby" (obese by medical definitions) to 300 pounds. They have no trouble making friends, but often skinnier girls get tons of shit and backhanded compliments about how "curveless" they are. Idk about the guys too much but the situation seems similar from what I've seen. The biggest problem with all these generalizations is that depends on where you live and how the community is in your area.

>>9054325
>>9054334
I think it's like you gulls say, it probably depends on the area! It's nice that it isn't the same for larger ladies in all goth communities. There's an immense pressure within mine to stay very slim, a lot of the overweight girls really do just get ignored (counteracting this by sleeping with as many guys as possible, resulting in more animosity). A tangled web indeed.

>>9047180
You sound new. It's less of a subculture than it used to be, but in Japan at least in the early 2000s there was very much a lifestyle to it.

>Christian Cafe
>visual kei concerts

As well as the usual tea/french pastries, sewing, baking, literature, etc

Go look at old egl posts.

>>9047533
Gothic lolita has ties to music though too.

>>9052228
This is actually one of the more interesting reposts though that hasn't been discussed to death.

>>9056857

No, the thing is that it got discussed just very, very recently

https://archive.rebeccablacktech.com/cgl/thread/8986991

I know, people can miss threads. But it does kind of make the people in here look like they just discovered cgl this month.


>>9056854

Read the posts again. There's a little bit of discussion about girls who were into this or that, but not all lolitas were into vkei bands or christian-themed nightclubs. Whatever it was in Japan, the culture never made it across the language barrier. So in the West the emphasis is 1000% about the clothes first, and even with the frequent lifestyle threads on cgl nobody can even agree what "lolita lifestyle" is supposed to be.

>>9056856
It has ties, yes, but being a goth as far as I experienced it is very much about the music and clubs. Being a gothic lolita is not really as tied to the music particularly outside of Japan... no one is gonna give you shit because you listen to western pop rather than Japanese visual kei

I don't think you can compare the two.

Goth includes a huge variety of things- from looks that are similar to lolita to people wearing fetishwear to people wearing dark colored tees and leggings. It includes a huge variety of music and other media as well.

Lolita is comparatively really narrow. It includes a couple variations on a pretty tight theme of clothing and maybe a few things like type of posture for photos, makeup, and popular opinions about brand name fashion. There was a brief time around 2006-2010 when it looked like Lolita might become a subculture, then it kind of seemed like the loli hivemind rejected that.

I will say that in Goth, you have a lot more voices from people who have been goth for a really long time. So that may influence the maturity level of your local scene. But you also get a get off my lawn crowd there, sometimes, where people think every goth person under 25 is gothing wrong.

With Lolita, it's a fandom about clothing. So... depending on what you're thinking about inclusion vs. exclusion about, stuff like how much money you have matters, because the idea isn't to live a lifestyle, it's just mostly to hoard cute clothes and look nice in them.

Good news? You can do both if you want. No one is stopping you. I did at one point. Maybe one group of people or hobby will be more interesting to you after a while and you'll choose one over the other. That's totally fine. It's a free world.

>>9047698
I think part of this is that Goth grew out of Punk, so there's less of a loyalty to the big brands, although I could absolutely picture someone starting shit over someone ripping off someone's small handmade clothing design. The idea of making things your own in goth is important, or taking things and modding them to be more your own. People sometimes give lolitas crap for cutting or altering brand to fit or making it into other types of clothing, but that wouldn't happen in goth unless the reconstruction was hot glued together or something. I read something in one of those advice columns about someone being upset that her friend wore the same item to a party that she had, and someone told her to get over it because it was a mass produced item.

I remember when I was first getting to socialize with other goths older than me (I was interested in goth in HS but only got to read about it online.) I would get gentle older sibling teasing about not knowing this or that musical group, but then lots of recommendations for things to listen to. But goth has kind of an "onboarding procedure" now. It needs new blood to survive and it's been around long enough to have ways to deal with baby bats as long as they are polite.

And yes, I've seen people talking shit about people's badly done makeup, but never with examples or names. Just "These kids today do a shitty job with their eyeliner here's some fucking eyeliner tips get off my lawn!"

>>9054325
Yeah, I'm a fat goth. I have health problems.

No one has ever said jack to me about my size in a negative way. It's been more "Yes, I can make/order that in your size" or things like that. The worst thing I ever got told was something like "I know you like that but it doesn't fit right" by someone working in a clothing store. She was right.

Although... in my area there are a lot of plus sized women in general so that may change people's opinions. Like every 3rd girl is plus sized here. When I went to lolita events, no one really cared there, either.

>>9054334
Never seen this either, but sorry it happened to anyone.

>>9054011
>But holy shit, if you walk into a Goth club and you don't request the right music, order the right drink or you're not wearing crushed velvet or PVC, you will get ostracized near enough instantly. And then you have to know how to dance. And you're a complete outcast if you're fat, like literally.
not my goth scene at all. folk are pretty chill about what you wear, drink, etc. at the club. what region are you from?

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>>9054011
Man, sounds like you found a really shitty goth club... the last goth club I went to played some decent hip hop right next to the typical goth affair, everyone was down, and the most popular drink at our table was pear cider. Goth dancing aside, which I do not understand and never will despite being a goth for most of my life, I have always found goth clubs to be inviting and fun. I would wear lolita, casual goth, baby bat shit, and once a frilly yellow sundress that I styled with gothic makeup and skull accessories in matching colors. People loved it.

I miss those days... I moved and the local goth community (for lack of a better term) is pretty lackluster. They are all old people who ONLY want to listen to metal and wear t-shirts and jeans. Not even black t-shirts and jeans, just regular normie shit, and when they go to a show they break out the most cringe worthy halloween quality pvc crap costumes. Literally halloween quality costumes too, one of them showed up as a cheap pvc nun with running black eye makeup and no foundation at all. In that way I guess it is a good thing we don't have a dedicated goth club here.

I made the mistake of trying to talk about the fashion aspect of goth, what I considered a normal and fun topic, and was completely ignored. They ignore pretty much everyone under 40 it seems, and I am tired of being the only person in black in this whole damn city! Central California is shitty for goths AND lolitas.

its a subculture.
anyone who denies that probably doesnt know what a subculture is.

Where I'm from, goth is more inclusive because it has no standards.
Even then, you get folks eager to surround themselves with shitty looking people in an effort to look better by comparison, so it's like a weird narcissistic hugbox.
The lolitas on the other hand are welcoming PROVIDED you look like you know what you're doing. This leads to a reputation of being "elitist" because the local comm is not in fact a school offering Lolita 101 classes.

I dunno, as a gothic lolita I prefer meetups to goth clubs.

I think goth scene is less inclusive. For example, i don't listen to the typical goth bands because i prefer Industrial/EBM and i love pink, sweet lolita and kawaii things that aren't really goth. I love spoopy clothing and things of course, the thing is for some goths you have to be 100% dark and spoopy to be one and must listen to these goth bands (usually are too old, we need fresh blood instead of the same stuff) to be a true goth. It's a bit annoying also the thing when some goth guys/girls won't date someone that is a bit different from their norm, because you aren't spoopy enough for them or not listening to some bands, liking not all the time dark stuff, etc. Not everyone is like this of course but i think lolita is more inclusive and they don't care what music are you listening, if you love dark or kawaii items or both, if you wear gothic and sweet lolita and such.
>>9058856
I loved the idea to wear colourful clothing and making them more goth, wish i could do it with some sweet lolita items i own, thing they are all printed and AP pastel vomit in black, the risk to look too pastel goth is inevitable.

Anyone got any goth instagrams that I can follow?

>>9047180
>a niche fashion isn't a subculture
I feel like all alt fashions and scenes have a culture and mindset to them.

>>9047500
Oh man... is the married girl who calls everyone fat and ugly, fat herself?? Please say yes. That is the icing on her cringe cake if that's true.

>>9058737
How can you say something isn't a culture if there is a group of people rejecting something?
The online subculture for this hobby seems to be whoever to can make the best argument that yes, the person everyone is criticizing does in fact look like shit even though that's purely subjective outside of the rules and the rules have gotten looser over time but people still want to be elitist about it because let's face it, lolita is a rich person hobby.

Goth died in the 90's, and it was already on the way out before that.