I'm just starting out with bitcoin and I was wondering what

>>990719

different places will require different numbers of confirmations, but i'd say anywhere from 15min - 1hour, usually

It takes 4 or 5 days to get your BTC. The conversion to USD depends on who you're selling your BTC to and it can be same-day.

>>990719

also if you're talking about buying BTC now and then converting back to USD in 5-10 days, that's a big risk you're taking

the price has already moved, and while there's the chance it will continue this momentum in the short run, it's typically large selling pressure that follows big rises, so you're more likely to take a loss

>>990777

nice trips, thanks for the advice. that makes a lot of sense.

>>990757

What exactly is involved in the process of selling bitcoins? Do I need to find another individual buyer and work out the details of the sale with him personally? Is there anything like a bitcoin market?

Also, does anyone know what caused this recent jump? Was it just a sudden influx of people buying coins that wasn't really caused by anything?

>>990827
china capital outflow using bitcoin to get money out of china to the US since they have the most millionaires and billionaires.

Negative interest rates are only the beginning, the government is forcing people to buy gold,silver then they dump it into bitcoin.

If you read up on what bitcoin really is and how it works, it benefits dark government's 100000x fold if they implement *colored coins* so they can track all your shit,your going to register Everything in the blockchain, and digital copy rights will be even stronger.

Everyones using smartphones.

>>990874
I really think that the blockchain will enslave us all one day. This technology in the hands of world governments and banks/corporations will allow them to control the finances of every single citizen in the world, giving them full power. Cash is the only thing holding them back from doing so. I don't know why people aren't terrified of a cashless society. I sure am.
>notice I said "blockchain" and not "Bitcoin"
>inb4 some retard who doesn't understand the technology says that the blockchain IS Bitcoin

>>990891
Then the market will favor people that hold onto cash. Phasing cash out entirely will be a huge deal and those crazy people who actually held on to dollar coins and shit or drug dealers with a plethora of cash on hand will be the ones on top once again. There's a market for anonymity and people will find a way.

>>990896
Wat. I'm not following your logic. In a cashless society cash would be worth only the paper/gold/silver it's printed on. Why would you hoard paper?

Converting Bitcoin into fiat is a mistake.

>>990825
>What exactly is involved in the process of selling bitcoins? Do I need to find another individual buyer and work out the details of the sale with him personally? Is there anything like a bitcoin market?

There is a bitcoin market. It's called "localbitcoins" and there you can specify your conditions for selling (meet in person for cash, deposit to your bank account, etc.)

>>990891
But the blockchain that will most likely be used is the bitcoin blockchain anon.

>>991027
Wut? What makes you think that?

>>990719
LOOK AT ALL THESE FUCKING YOUTUBE CHANNELS BEING MAde to sell gold BULLION!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsuY_v9tceWY27M-6fxI5SA/videos

Bitcoin goes up gold goes down ITS A FUCKING CONSPIRACY

>>991061
Because network effect, first mover advantage, market value, decentralisation, user/community to name a few.

There will be some insider blockchains built by businesses such as banks I bet, but overall in the end everything will tend to one chain/ledger

>>991105
Huh? None of that matters. Not even one thing you mentioned. If the government created a blockchain for a one world currency it would be a new currency. Then they would just ban cash and other currencies. Would there still be an underground for commodities like gold, oil, silver, bitcoin, etc.? Yes. None of them would be accepted as payment anywhere though. The merchant who decides to accept other forms of payment besides (global currency) will face legal and criminal charges. Other than that, I still think there will be a dark market for drugs and weapons. If this scenario plays out (which is where I fear the world is headed) then Bitcoin would be the absolute last thing to gain any acceptance. Use it at your own peril.

>>990827
the creator supposedly revealed himself. his house was raided so initial investors, i'm guessing, created a slight rise due to whatever reasoning on their behalf. the slight rise compounded by the news surrounding what's going on with bitcoins probably attracted new investors which lead to a greater rise and thus people like you have gotten wind of it and might make it an even greater rise. it really depends on what pre established holders decide to do.

>>991138
This. What people aren't talking about (and what they should be) is Craig Steven Wrights ties to US government agencies. If Bitcoiners understood what was going on and that Bitcoin is just a precursor to something more ominous (call it a test run, if you will) then maybe they wouldn't be as gung ho for reform of the financial system. They don't know that the blockchain will make it worse by a considerable measure.

Posted on "Satoshi Nakamoto's" LinkedIn:
>Establishment of executive level relationships with the National Security Agency (NSA), Department of Homeland Security (DHS), North American Space Administration and DSD and regional government bodies.
So much for a rogue, anti-government libertarian, folks.

>>991178
I was going to laugh and call you a conspiratard. Then I looked it up. It checks out. Wtf....

>>991178
UHhh I have been saying that all this time, bitcoin is going to be the new gold, it was created By TPTB bitcoin has a lot of utility to create the ULTIMATE control of society, all they have to do is designate single adresess then slap on peoples DNA or Names on the ledger. the US is using bitcoin to funnel out cash from other countries to control everything.

>>991178
IF people actually knew it was created by the US why the hell would other companies like china etc adopt it?

What bitcoin buys drugs,pedo shit and supports ISIS yet they don't ban it?

No there just keeping people away from it *for now* while they sneak the price up for early adopters then they will make it mainstream when it hits 10K+

They already established a couple of business that you can trade gold in for bitcoin, banks are closing down and switching to mobile payments.

>>991007
thanks anon

>>991068
anon in other thread said "Gold is just low because it went too high too fast (in need of correction) and the fed stopped printing. But as soon as the fed prints again people will "speculate" and pump gold up." >>991179

>>991234
You just blew my mind. If this is true then they targeted the people they knew would give it the most trouble. All the people that would have been against this type of government control are on this Bitcoin train.....

.... Woah. Anything blockchain related will be embraced with no fight. Brilliant.

>>991238
Close. They can't actually let Bitcoin become mainstream though. Notice I said it was a "precursor" meaning they can't use it because they already established it as a rogue currency not under thier control. It's too decentralized for them to be able to get other nations on board. No, the real thing will be a brand new centralized form of the blockchain. This is the only way it can work as a global currency. Bitcoin is a test run and they will leash it at some point.

Are there any services that let you trade bitcoins for paper silver or gold or anything similar to that and back again?

>>991245
The thing about me is that when I invest in something I make sure im nearly 80%-to 90% sure unless I have an excess of funds.

I ended up finding interesting and retarded shit related with bitcoin, it maybe true to what it is but the people who do not get in will suffer, I shit you not.

The old people of the old world order cant run the new world, were breeding new elite, then those new elite in the 1% of bitcoin will be influenced by the same tactics of corruption and becoming a puppet.

blackmailing,framing (pedo rings,human desires etc) so they become puppets.

It's a global wealth transfer,only the people that are technologically inept or have adapted through the generations will reap the wealth of the current high class of this world.

But I fear the gaps between rich and poor are going to be even MORE far apart because of this.

>>991271
Bitgold they have vaults around the world apparently.

you can also have the gold shipped to you as well in physical.

If you guys don't trust bitcoin, at least setup your bank account or accounts to buy in when shit happens.

I have 150$ stored in a crypto exchange incase they bait and switch to bitcoin to another crypto as well if some retarded shit happens.

>>991279
I was planning on doing some sort of dollar cost averaging for it. I might play around with the ratio to see if I can earn some money if I can freely shuffle it back and forth with gold.

>>991265
Ah I see, what are the candidates from alt coins? do they currently exist or na?

Do you think bitcoin will be the backing of the new currency?

>>991282
I have no idea but the bitcoin price is manipulated, or being held back like gold maybe.

>>991286
Of course it is. A fuckton of them were mined early on. People are going to be cashing out as they can.

>>991283
I am not too sure any candidates currently exist. It seems like they are refining the process and exploring new avenues with Ripple and Ethereum. Google just added both to thier tool kits. The interesting thing about these is that they both have smart contract capabilities which are going to be necessary for a cashless society. Ripple was originally fully funded by Google and has ties to Wells Fargo and the New York fed. They even have former fed employees as executives at Ripple Labs.

There is an ultimate gameplan and it's being disguised as innovation. The idea for Bitcoin itself was spawned back on the 90s from an NSA think tank. The NSA was and still is the global experts on cryptographic hash functions. Hell, they designed modern day cryptography as we know it. Now it comes to light that "Satoshi Nakamoto" himself also works closely with the NSA. Bitcoin is thier baby. It always has been.

>>991298
As a side note I picked up half a million XRP (Ripples exchange tokens) more than a year ago on a hunch. I have been sitting on them up until like a month ago figuring my hunch was wrong after so much inactivity and price decline so I sold them off. Then within the last few days they are exploding in value due to the Google news. Fucking hell lol. I really couldn't tell you if they will go up anymore, though or if there is much of a future there. Altcoins are a crapshoot.

>>991312
Meh I'll just shove in 10$s on possible candidates I'm assuming they will set up infrasttructure first the dump hard, I read once it becomes somewhat mainstream it will take 1-2 years before they pull the rug under us.

>>991328
*When Bitcoin becomes mainstream*

>>991312
Because banks and Goldman Sachs are kissing bitcoins Ass right now , I'm super skeptical if there going to run it like a ponzi, I'm guessing the coin after that would be somewhat implied the same features as Bitcoin

>>991312
>>991298
Wait I have a question why is Bitcoin going up really, it's China right? I hope China is not some fud. And it's always going up at a distinct price

>>991138
anyone who can actually believe that guy is the real satoshi, just learned about bitcoin yesterday.

>>991335
Could be any number of factors. Most likely the overstock SEC filing?

>>991337
Actually the evidence is pretty compelling. The geography fits. The cryptographic key to satoshis email matches. The leaked financial documents. The ties to MIT and other founding cryptographers. The 2 supercomputers that he owns and could have used. The list goes on. If this isn't the guy I would be incredibly surprised.

The only thing that doesn't fit is this guy is obviously not libertarian or anti-government. I'm sure we both know there's a simple explanation for that.

>>991178
Are Bitcoin and Gulden the same?

>>990891
>GBTC

>>991433
Not really. All altcoins spawned from the idea of Bitcoin, though. None existed before it.

>>991265
Well our phones and computer's are already compromised desu, Windows 10 etc think about it

>>991355
>I'm sure we both know there's a simple explanation for that.

Whats the explanation? I'm genuinely curious about your thoughts

>>991437
Gulden seems to be more evolved.
Bitcoin like an old locomotive in 1900 and GULDEN like Maglev Bullet train.

Very strong this GULDEN only a year old and already more development and momentum than Bitcoin.

>>991438
Without a doubt. Technology is an incredible thing. Cell phones alone have changed the whole fabric of our society. As long as your phone is on, law enforcement can triangulate your geographical position to within 50 feet. There's no reason for gps trackers of the everyday devices you use serve the same purpose.

>>991553
There could be many reasons but the most simple one is that Satoshi is not the rogue free market anarchist that he made himself out to be. If he is working with the NSA then it was most likely a ruse that they knew would bring libertarians to the cause and help a grass roots movement. It makes sense because the underground markets before we're all secretive as mostly disjointed. Bring the dark market all together under one roof? It makes it easier for them to infiltrate and monitor. Which is exactly what happened. People who were flying under the radar started to willingly record all of thier drug sales under a public ledger. It's absolutely baffling to me.

>>991435
What is this?

>>991762
an otc trust fund, much like a stock/share

http://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/GBTC/quote

>>991743
This is probably one of the most interesting Bitcoin threads I have ever seen on /biz/. If what you say is true, what is the next move?

>>991312
How do you buy XRP? I want some.

>>991743
That's why Gulden is much better

>>991764
How come the stock price doesn't correlate too well with the price of Bitcoin? What other metrics would they use to determine Bitcoins longevity?

>>991743
You're giving the NSA way too much credit.

Besides, exactly what lets the NSA "infiltrate and monitor" bitcoin movements/transactions?

Why would they shut down SR if it was part of the plan?

And your "satoshi nakamoto" getting caught (openly coming out really..) part of your plan?

>>991769
it's a fund that's used by big wall street types, controlled large transactions with low slippage, organised buyer/seller transactions.

It doesn't correlate too well with the price of bitcoin because it's not exactly open for anyone to buy.

But it is hugely volatile, one 0.1 bitcoin share has a 52 week range of $21.22 - $94.86, with a current value of around $52 it is quite largely over spot price.

>>991765
Honestly all I have are a few theories. Nothing concrete.

>>991766
Through Bitstamp. I would advise against it, though. Ripple XRP are more like tokens used to validate the network and less like a currency or even commodity. Even if the Ripple Network does expand, there is no gaurantee that the tokens themselves will become worth more. I have been waiting for this Google news for about a year and it just now finally happened. There are still a few more developments that they have planned within the next year but if you MUST buy XRP I would wait until next April when the price is much lower.

File: 1352655850132.jpg (75KB, 649x638px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 649x638px

>mfw people think this attention whore is the real Satoshi

>>991772
The NSA *most likely* has a backdoor to the RNG used to generate Bitcoins secret keys. People seem to forget DUAL_EC_DRBG and the $10 million the NSA paid the NIST to make it the industry standard. If anything I don't think people give the NSA enough credit. This isn't some dumpy government agency filled with brain-dead government employees. The NSA recruits the brightest and smartest from MIT and has some of the foremost mathematicians alive in the world today. Not to mention the actual arsenal of hardware under their disposal.

Why leave silkroad? I couldn't tell you. My guess is that the government uses the drug trade towards thier own ends. The CIA has been complicit in doing this for a loooong time.

>>991809

The NSA *most likely* has a backdoor to the RNG used to generate Bitcoins secret keys.

[citation needed]

>>991809
To be honest, yeah, you could be right.

I've thought all the SHA's could potentially have backdoors, I mean it's possible, but again it's just tinfoil hat tier until it's proven.

And it will never be disproven.

I think we'll need to wait till they play their cards, if they catch something in the blockchain that you technically shouldn't or can't physically do then we'll have our red herring. Until then I'd say it's safe to assume it's just speculation

>>991772
Also, I never really understood Satoshi Nakamoto using a pseudonym in two first place. The only thing I can think of is that it added to the whole "veil of secrecy" and anonymity aspect that Bitcoin was trying to promote. Now that Bitcoin is so prevalent in the public eye there really is no point anymore. Unless you really think he is some Assange type figurehead where government agencies are after him. I sincerely doubt it.

>>991768
Gulden has no future. Any asic farm could break this currency with a 51% attack. (If it was profitable)

>>991821

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/09/bitcoin-founder-craig-wrights-home-raided-by-australian-police?CMP=twt_gu

>shitty news sites claim some australian guy is Satoshi
>HOURS later, police raids his home

Yes, why would he possibly have any reason not to reveal his identity?

>>991821
Honestly, I've no idea.

But I'm pretty sure this dude is not the real satoshi, and if he was it wouldn't really matter anyway.

It's no longer his baby, he gave up any rights to it long ago.

The only thing I'm worried about are his 1.1 million coins, if they move then it's time to panic

>>991817
You'd think that all of the mining pools would have crunched the numbers to make sure their output is what was expected. If people were manipulating the RNG then things would not distribute properly and it would have been noticed. If someone has access to something like that, they have not used it.

>>991842
You're right it doesn't matter. Libertarians already have it in thier head that Bitcoin is the currency of the people even if Rogers held a press conference and says explicitly that Bitcoin is their brainchild. They would find some way to totally disregard that all the facts add up. The fact that Bitcoin has achieved a cult-like status is a testament to its succes as a social experiment. The most effective way they will leash it at some point is to drive the price into the ground. Obviously they don't want to do that yet evidenced by the way they handled the Silk Road auctions.

>>991864
I don't follow your whole logic that bitcoin is controlled/centralised or at least something has some sort of authority.

When everyone that has looked at the source code sees otherwise.

The only fabric of truth is the abstract possibilty that SHA is compromised, so some group has access to ALL hashing algorithms on the planet, including banks.

>The most effective way they will leash it at some point is to drive the price into the ground.

Again, this "authority" you speculate has no conceivably way to do this, even with compromised SHA keys. It is my understanding that there is no conceivable way to spawn bitcoins from nothing to be sold.

>>991828
You need to check out Gulden and it's Prime protocol that is being developed to handle 51% attacks.

Delta is already running and it made for neutralize multipools.

>>991860
The NSA isn't built that way. Their job is usually data collection, monitoring and spying. If they did have a back door they would never let on that they had it and would only use it in individual cases, not on a large scale.

>>991869
I dont think that Bitcoin is controlled or centralized. My theory is that it was created by the NSA as a prelude to something else. They needed a test case to 1) introduce the blockchain and have it gain acceptance 2) prove that the concept can work on a large scale.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that the back doors to the RNGs are the end all control the network, just a emergency measure in case someone else tried to undermine thier intents. IF the NSA really did create Bitcoin (which I can go into detail all the reasons this is entirely plausible) then most of the original Bitcoin wallets that hold the majority of wealth are theirs since they were able to mine with significantly superior hardware before anyone else. Control the wealth and you effectively have control of the entire system. "Satoshi Nakamoto" holds the largest Bitcoin wallet. If Satoshi Nakamoto is operating under the direction of the NSA then connect the dots.

>>991885
Now we have Gulden much much better Bitcoin is gone

>>991885
> My theory

Yeah, it's possible.

I'm not buying till I witness something that shouldn't be though, until then I'm happy with what bitcoin is.

>>991889
I know you're the same gulden troll from the other threads because every time your English sounds like something from a terrible anime dub

>>991894
IMPOSSIBRU!!!!

>>991894
Ok. Keep your eyes open, bro. The fact that they were able to go after the operators of both Silk Road and Silk Road 2 AND seize all the Bitcoin on a protocol that is supposed to be impenetrable should be a red flag. You can say DPR was sloppy but that doesn't account for the fact that he would have had to personally allow them access to his accounts for them to be able to seize the holdings. The only other alternative is that they just went in and took it.

>>991916
If I was DPR, I'm pretty sure I would have given up my holdings for leniency, and even if he didn't there is nothing to prove (that I know of) that there was any fault whatsoever in the protocol.

>>991916

Silk Road 1 owner was caught due to IP/VPN shenanigans and his interest for Ludwig Mises Institute. Of course the FBI seized all his shit then, at that point they can easily find his private keys, thats not newsworthy. Or he just told them because he was put under pressure.

>>991920
No, I'm not saying there is direct evidence supporting the NSA (and therefore it's strongarm, the FBI) used backdoor access to the private key to seize the account. I am saying that if they do have backdoors, you will continue to see these types of things happening no matter how many Silk Roads spring up. If there was a smoking gun then it wouldn't even be up for debate. There are plenty of facts that lead to the NSA connection even if there is no direct proof.
>the NSA are the architects of modern day cryptology which is the backbone for security in every sector from the government to banking system to small businesses
>the NSA created SHA-2 which the entire Bitcoin protocol is based on
>the NSA has known backdoors to elliptical curves
>Bitcoin uses elliptical curve hash functions to create the RNG for its secret keys
>in 96, the NSA published Bitcoin-esque blueprints that show how to make a decentralized anonymous digital currency (10 years before the creation of Bitcoin)
>The creator of Bitcoin hides under a pseudonym
These are all facts that are not up for question. You can draw your own conclusions from them. This is not even taking into account the possibility that this Australian guy with ties to the NSA might be Nakamoto.

>>991959
I'm not debating that. I saw the documentary too. It's just very convenient that the FBI was so easily able to sieze (the largest?) Bitcoin holdings not once but twice. Didn't the operator of Silk Road 2 learn anything at all from DPRs supposed "sloppiness" or is there something else going on here that we are unaware of, like the fact that the fact that the NSA has been all over this from the very beginning? I'm not giving you answers, I am raising the necessary questions.

>>991972

Ever heard of Occams razor?

>>991972
I think a more reasonable explanation, is that it must be pretty hard to organise, maintain and operate a (the most) successful and largest drug marketplace on the planet.

>>991978
Absolutely. If you disregard all the facts outlined in >>991965 then it become very simple. Otherwise, there really is no simple explanation.

>>991989

Are you dense?

The FBI cought the guy and seized all his shit, somwhere he had to save his private keys. Or he told them. How is that not a simple explanation?

>>991980
This is going to sound snarky, (I don't intend it to be) but Silk Road couldn't be too successful if they were able to shut it down twice.

>>991995
I mean successful in that it was easily the largest and well known when it was operating, not successful in it's blatant disregard for it's own safety.

I hope one day we get a fully decentralised p2p escrow exchange with no holes or central figure that can bring it all down.

>>991994
You have no idea how it went down. You are guessing just like I am. There is no simple explanation.

>>992000

Yes, we are guessing. Still:

Simple explanation: FBI seized his stuff and got the private keys.

Not simple explanation: Several US secret services infiltrated Bitcoin from the very start and can steal money magically but no one knows it yet although they did it at least twice by now and they also let Bitcoin alive even though they could destroy it for reasons unknown to us.

>>992008
You're close. Let me revise it a little for you to make it more reasonable.

Not Simple explanation: FBI seized his stuff and got the private keys although they might not have been stored anywhere they had access to. They had to negotiate a plea deal where DPR gave them access to the keys in exchange for leniency. DPR willingly gave away his only leverage and STILL got life in a federal security prison. Then the exact same scenario happened again with SilkRoad2

Another Not simple explanation: Several US secret services infiltrated Bitcoin from the very start and have a backdoor to the random number generator used to create private keys. DPR would not give up his leverage (the Bitcoin stash) so the NSA used thier known backdoor to break into his account and sieze them then sentenced him to life in prison.

>>992018
>NSA used thier known backdoor to break into his account and sieze them then sentenced him to life in prison

And if this information was ever discovered and leaked..?

You do realise that everything we use is built on SHA's, if any backdoors actually existed, I doubt they would be used to crack some wallets to be auctioned off later

>>992018

If you are just gonna blindly assume that he used a reliable storage that the FBI cant possibly find with tons of manpower, thats your thing. They could also just have lied about the plea deal, who knows.

You also still need to explain why they go through the trouble of actually catching the Silk Road guys instead of just stealing their Bitcoin, which would kill the currency. Why keep it alive?


IF you have any evidence that secret services infiltrated Bitcoin, bring it. Of course its a possibility.
But I just dont see how "FBI seized the hardware and the private keys were on it" is such a unlikely story to you, its not like they planned on getting caught.

>>992025
Not just some wallets. The single largest Bitcoin wallet that ever exists. It's not like any physical evidence would manifest itself if they did use a backdoor. If anyone asked they could just claim they somehow got ahold of the private key (even if they didn't). Again this is just one scenario. Although it is entirely plausible that the NSA has backdoors to SHA-2 since they created it, this doesn't necessarily mean they have ever used those backdoors in the way that I described. It is totally possible that DPR gave up the keys. If that's the case then he got screwed big time since they still prosecuted him to the FULL extent of the law.

>>992032

>Why keep it alive?

Not that guy, but the FBI is well known for running honeypots. Whatever angle they are running, they are utilizing bitcoin to monitor illicit transactions.

>>992032
>You also still need to explain why they go through the trouble of actually catching the Silk Road guys instead of just stealing their Bitcoin, which would kill the currency.
This part I can answer. Why kill the currency if they created it? The whole purpose was to shut down Silk Road and make a public example, not kill Bitcoin.

>>992042
Another good point. It is public knowledge now that they had agents in Silk Road posing as dealers.

>>992042

And wheres the honeypot part in it?

The only claim is that they can create the private key and thus steal the Bitcoin, but that doesnt reveal the identity of the criminal.

But they still went through the trouble to actually find and arrest the Silk Road owners, and then used their secret magic to steal the keys AFTER THEY SHOULD HAVE THEM ANYWAY IN A REALISTIC SCENARIO.

If the FBI just was after the money, they could have stolen and killed Silk Road much earlier.

>>992052
No I think you're a bit confused. Silk Road wasn't an alleged honeypot it was an ACTUAL honeypot. It's a known fact that there were undercover agents planted all over the site involved in sting operations. Just because the site operators weren't complicit in the government involvement doesn't mean it didn't happen. You're confusing fact with consipracy. I know you're trying to make these events seem absurd with your wording but you need to open your eyes a little more and realize the world we live in. I get it. You're passionate about Bitcoin. You don't want to consider anything that might put Bitcoin in a bad light. If you just stand back for a second and consider the future implications, however, you might realize this technology is built to keep tabs on people.

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."

>>992045
Naw just like the CIA, they let those infrastructures build up, then they reap all the gains from it.

I mean really the Los Zetas, cartel comes out with beheadings every week, hell how many colombian and mexican drug cartels do the most repulsive violent shit that every time I watch an ISIS killing video I just sigh.

And the US does JACK FUCKING SHIT, Nor even fucking brings up the problem of the drugs coming into our countries all over the world.

No organizations are good or bad, all the government cares about is the revenue stream and how they can dip there hands in it.

>>992088
>this technology is built to keep tabs on people.

sorry m8, but just because you wish it was doesn't make it so.

Where's the proofs.

>>992092
That's exactly right. They waited until Silk Road had built up and they had gathered all the intel they could then they plundered it and made out with millions under the guise of shutting down a criminal organization. They took thier cut. Then when another Silk Road sprung up they did the exact same thing.

>>990719
Every Bitcoin thread has a picture of what looks like physical Bitcoins. Do these actually exist, or are they just shooped or props?

>>992100
Read the writing on the wall. All you have to do is imagine a future where a centralized world currency is built on the blockchain. During the G-20 summit meeting there were already talks of moving towards a digital world currency even before Bitcoin was ever created. FINtech in general is headed in this direction as the banking cartel seeks to unify thier ledgers. More technology always leads to more abuses of that technology. Before the Internet, governments relied on physically stealing data from servers, and actual paper documents. Now with the mainstream use of the web they have the entire population under thier fingertips. Keeping tabs on someone is easy as accessing your phone records, email, criminal and employment history, salary, assets, stock holdings, credit, bank account, personal Facebook posts, and Google browsing history. All in a matter of minutes. They know more about you then your mom does.

The problem is that it isn't enough for them. Why do you think all these press releases about Bitcoin financing Isis terror cells mean? It's so that they have the excuse to push for control. You will see more of this propaganda continue to surface. Your personal financial freedom will eventually be taken away because of "criminal elements that use cash and anonymous forms of payment to finance terror". They can't make you use banks (which allow them to sieze your account) but they can make a digital currency the only form of legal tender. If the government can ban cash altogether they will have full control of your money and knowing exactly where it goes. Bitcoin is just a precursor to this.

These are things that will happen within our lifetime. The wheels are already in motion.

>>992141
What you're suggesting is exactly why we need a decentralised currency to take over before that happens.

When I say take over I mean acceptance, once that happens it wont matter if its banned because most ordinary people will already be willing to accept it, no third party permission required.

>>992147
I totally agree with you. Which is why the Trojan horse was so effective. Now when people think of the blockchain people will think of financial freedom and technological innovation. Since the blockchain wasn't first introduced as a form of government control it won't be rejected when the government proposes is as the backbone for a new digital currency. It won't be synonymous with the banking system and governments, no it will be synonymous with Bitcoin which is a libertarian, free market wet dream. The group that should be the least supportive of a government based blockchain will be embracing it because of the "transparency" that it brings to a corrupt financial system.

This is already happening. Bitcoiners are exuberant about Visa, Wells Fargo, Chase, Bank of America exploring blockchain technology and creating new patents for use. They don't realize that blockchain doesn't mean Bitcoin. By the time they realize what is going on and that banks want to use it for a closed, centralized system it will have already happened. Then it is mainstream. Everyone who has a bank account, credit card, gift card, loyalty points, etc. will have come in contact with blockchain tech. The next step after that is for world currencies to be united under one currency and one ledger.

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>>992158
well, if this happens, it would be highly shit, and I could totally see it happen.

I'd just keep using muh bitcoins in that case though

>>992121
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Physical+bitcoins

>>992164
Let's assume Bitcoin isn't compromised for the meantime then. If it is what it says it is and really created by some nomadic anarcho-capitalist then we have nothing to worry about. If not I'm sure another anonymous monetary system not built on top of NSA framework will spring up out of necessity. I hope.

>>992188
Yeah, I'm with you.

I just wouldn't assume that just because it's built on the NSA framework that it has to be compromised.

Possibly? Sure.

But there's been tons of smart minds trying to crack it or find a backdoor.

Remeber, bitcoin uses double-SHA256, which is not broken if SHA256 is compromised. But other financial and banking protocols (credit cards, wire transfers, etc) all use algorithms way, WAY weaker than SHA256, so they're in big trouble.

If there is a backdoor to all hashing set up by the NSA, and if it was found, then our entire world would come crashing down overnight.

>>992216
To add:

I don't trust the NSA. I trust the fact that:
a) the algorithm is open
b) the constants are sequential prime cuberoots rather than "random"
c) the entire world community hasn't found a flaw

>>992216
Although it's possible, the backdoor theory isn't even really what worries me. It's the ties to the NSA in general. There are literally only a couple dozen experts in the world who are able to even perform a differential cryptanalysis on hash functions let alone build a system as mathematically complex as Bitcoin. The academic circle for advanced modern day cryptography is a small one. Then you have the fact that the earliest blueprints for an anonymous digital currency come from an NSA publication in '96. In the outline they discuss key signatures, hash functions, divisibility and anonymity among other things. This was over a decade before Bitcoin was ever created.

The problem is simple. Who owns all the bitcoins? We know that the majority of Bitcoin was mined in the early days and sits in 100 wallets. The largest of these wallets before the Silk Road busts belonged to "Satoshi Nakamoto" himself. It matters who he is because if he is with the NSA or tied to the NSA then it is likely that the NSA own the majority of all Bitcoin. Why is he still hiding if he isn't this Australian guy? Who the hell is he? Unless that question is answered for me I can have no faith at all in the network.

>It's the ties to the NSA in general.

Err, I don't know of any.

>the earliest blueprints for an anonymous digital currency come from an NSA publication in '96

You're really grasping at straws. As you say, there are some really smart guys at NSA, and for bitcoin to even work it would most likely need to have the things mentioned. Just because it is outlined does not imply NSA built it.

>This was over a decade before Bitcoin was ever created.

Then why wasn't bitcoin launched a decade earlier?

>The problem is simple. Who owns all the bitcoins?

Nobody

> We know that the majority of Bitcoin was mined in the early days and sits in 100 wallets.

That's just simply not true.

http://www.bitcoinrichlist.com/top100

The top 100 holds just under 20%, and while that sounds bad, it's actually technically more diverse than gold

> It matters who he is because if he is with the NSA or tied to the NSA then it is likely that the NSA own the majority of all Bitcoin.

Well, satoshi has 1.1 M coins, who knows if these coins are still usable as they haven't moved in over 5 years.

And it looks like that Aus guy planted all his evidence in 2013

>>992273
and the whole

>Why is he still hiding if he isn't this Australian guy? Who the hell is he? Unless that question is answered for me I can have no faith at all in the network.

It is fully irrelevant now who satoshi is or what he stands for, he has no effect on the future of bitcoin.

Some other devs have put in more work and added more code than he has

Satoshi's philosophy or ideology is irrelevant, what matters is his code, and it's a code which has so far been completely sound, until someone finds a flaw critics don't have a leg to stand on other than speculation

>>992372
"Grasping at straws" is an often misused old English proverb. It refers to the thin reeds that line a river. A drowning man would grasp at them to save himself before being swept away. Therefore, what it means is someone will do/say anything to save himself. I am not grasping at straws, I am pointing out little inconsistencies in the Bitcoin narrative and raising the necessary questions. Whether or not you personally consider some of these facts relevant or not is besides the point. I will point them out anyways. I am sure someone out there finds it equally interesting that the NSA has the first known blueprints for a Bitcoin-like currency. The fact that they didn't develop it in '96 is easy to explain. The web was only 5 years old at that point and not many people had access to it. I am not saying there is concrete evidence that the NSA created Bitcoin, just that the the NSA is synonymous with modern day cryptography and the driving force for innovations in the space. I would be absolutely shocked if "Satoshi Nakamoto" was an independent cryptographer that picked up his unique skillset without doing at least some government work.

As to your other point, Bitcoin is a little more distributed now. when I said 100 wallets I meant early wallets. Just because those wallets might have now dumped into other wallets doesn't mean that they all sold off and the Bitcoin doesn't remain with the same individuals or group.

>that Aus guy planted all his evidence in 2013
Or so they say. Who knows what to believe. It's not a surprise that someone with so many connections with government agencies is so heavily involved with Bitcoin, even if he isn't Satoshi.

>>992389
It's actually incredibly relevant. If Satoshi is the NSA the ramifications are staggering. Even if Satoshi was working in tandem with the NSA it has very ominous undertones.

>>992418
>If Satoshi is the NSA the ramifications are staggering
I don't think so, unless there are backdoors which we don't know about, which again are incredibly, insanely difficult to disguise the way bitcoin is built.

The NSA isn't some evil boogeyman, some of the SHA's they've built are regarded as secure as a rock, and everything that we know as safe on the internet relies on them being so. If the NSA had backdoors into these, bitcoin would seriously be the least of your concerns.

But regardless;
Code is just simply code.

The white paper is public and anyone can look it up, and the current bitcoin software is completely open source.

If there was something in there that can be exploited, hashes that can be predicted or generated, transactions that can be forced, blocks that can be pre mined, anything that all that's malicious and not fair then I'm all ears.

If there are backdoors set-up that nobody knows about, and this can never be disproven, then the NSA will never reveal they have them, because if they do the entire game is up. Not just for bitcoin.

To be honest I kind of do hope Satoshi comes out/back, I'd quite like to hear his input on the direction bitcoin is headed, his thoughts on the block size debate and to dispel all the uncertainty.

On the other hand I do feel like "satoshi" has a cool buckethead/the stig anonymous thing going on. Like what if it's the shape shifting reptilian overlords?

>>991872
Explain it to me. I dont have the time to look at it.

>>991997
Openbazaar

>>992431
Again, the backdoor isn't what I'm worried about. Like I said the majority of bitcoins were mined in the early days. If Satoshi is the NSA then the majority of Bitcoin was mined by them. That's a problem. I don't think the NSA is evil either, but thier aims and goals don't align with mine and they never will.

>>992435
Thanks m8

>>992437
>the majority of Bitcoin was mined by them.

By majority you mean like less than 10%?

If your main concern is them actually holding the bitcoin then I'd like to point out that you can only spent bitcoin once.

Owning a shitload of bitcoin doesn't really matter, if you don't spend them and never will then they can be considered lost coins. And if you do spend them then you no longer have those bitcoin.

The only real concerns should be with the protocol, or with 51% attacks. Owning 'too many' bitcoins themselves are somewhat irrelevant imo

>>992437
To clarify that so there is no misunderstanding I don't mean that more Bitcoin was mined then than now, just that there was only a few people mining and the difficulty was low enough that one person or group mining back then could easily have the biggest wallet now that the rewards are so low per computing power.

>>992441
No I mean 90%. 100 wallets owned 90% of Bitcoin up until 2013.

>>992446
By the end of 2013, 1000 wallets still owned 50% of Bitcoin.

>>992442
yeah, and most of those early days coins were lost or traded.

>>992446
dude I've been around btc since 2011, I highly highly highly doubt it was anywhere near that in 2011, but even if it was would it change how it is today?

And wouldn't you see the trend of 90% in 2013 to 20% in 2015 as a good trend?

>>992451
Today, 1% of Bitcoin wallets hold 99% of bitcoins.

>>992453
yeah, and probably 95%+ of those wallets hold zero to single digits of satoshi's.

The trend of 90% in 2013, to 20% in 2015 is a good trend

>>992455
That depends. People could have just separated the Bitcoin between multiple wallets to be safer. It doesn't necessarily mean that the same people or group somehow has less coins now. If the NSA did hold as large amounts as the FBI then I'm sure they would sell too. Who knows, they may have already pulled a billion dollars out of the market.

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>>992462
then if they have pulled a billion dollars out they no longer have those bitcoins, your concerns are now abated

besides, like it or not bitcoin is going into a bubble atm, there isn't much that could happen that can stop this

>>992462
The FBI came to the conclusion that it was better to sell the Bitcoin than hold on to them. They made a right decision because they sold them at like $650 a piece and now they are worth a little over $400 even after the last pump. Tim Draper got the short end of the stick. I would think that if the NSA did have any real amount of Bitcoin then they are selling too. Hell, they may even have milked a billion dollars out of the market so far.

>>992473
so your concerned that the NSA potentially owns a large chunk of the bitcoin.

And you say if they did have a large chunk, they would probably be selling.

Do you see why this isn't a problem?

>>992478
I see it as a tremendous problem, I think the only reason that Bitcoin isn't banned or smothered with bad press is that they aren't done milking it yet. What happens when it's outlived its usefulness? Either that or they really aren't concerned about Bitcoin becoming mainstream. Or another possibility is they will replace it.

>>992484
and they do this how?

the magic backdoors that nobody knows about or can prove?

I think you completely misunderstand the situation, the NSA has no power here

Whoever owns the hashing power controlls the supply of btc.

Unless the NSA has zero day exploits on the whole thing, (if they did create btc as a tool why would they wreck the potential goldmine of info) that would be the chinese miners and the mining pools.

>>992488
I just told you. Banning it or smothering it in bad press. Unless you think I'm really implying that it would be the NSA that does this? They are just a smaller part of a large government system which actually has way more power than you seem to understand. Why do you keep using "magic" when referring to backdoors? Do you not know that these actually exist and the NSA has been proven to use them? There's nothing magical about it.

>>992496
Also, I don't think the government will ever ban Bitcoin. They just don't need to.

>>992496
>banning it

And if they live outside the US?

>smothering it in bad press

right..

>backdoors

I mean if SHA-256 was actually compromised with back doors, then realistically everything would be. It actually wouldn't surprise me if it was, but the truth is if the NSA let on it was then the game would be up, it would no longer function it's purpose. Banks would collapse overnight, all remittances, credit cards, wire transfers, literally everything would be worthless

Are you suggesting they would give up the game for bitcoin?

>>992503
I don't think they care about people outside the US using Bitcoin. The only thing that seems to matter is tax evasion and drug sales (not really but it gives them an excuse to plunder SR).

You're a little off about what having a backdoor to the RNG means. It's totally separate from SHA-2. Bitcoin uses elliptical curves to generate random numbers for use in private keys. These elliptical curves are what the NSA has known backdoors to. In essence what it means is of they have a backdoor they can get the private key for any Bitcoin address. Also, them using backdoors to access private keys wouldn't give anything away. One day a person with 10 Bitcoin goes into his wallet and they are missing. People will assume he didn't protect his private key well enough. Actually, this isn't an implausible scenario. If you ever frequent the Bitcoin forums there are tons of horror stories about people having Bitxoin missing from thier wallets.

>>992511
>implausible
Plausible*

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>>992511
I doubt the NSA would risk actually using their backdoors, if they actually had any, on some random guys "horror stories".

I also think you massively overstate the power of the NSA.

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>>992529
whoops, wrong pic

oy vey

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291217.0

this thread is pretty good for what it's worth

>>992529
What power am I stating they have? The backdoor thing has been proven. They even paid the NIST $10 million dollars to make it an industry standard so they could use it. What's the point of having back doors if you don't use them? The only other thing I said is that it's possible that they created Bitcoin since they are the leading experts in cryptography and have made blueprints in the past to create an anonymous currency. Is this evidence? No. The possibility alone raises enough red flags for me to never use Bitcoin though. I don't even need to know what they are up to. I don't trust the NSA and I don't trust Bitcoin. I don't have any problem that you do. That's up to you.

>>992539
there are no backdoors in SHA 256 AFAIK

NSA had nothing to do with the creation of bitcoin AFAIK

I'm going to need proof other than NSA flirted with the idea of making an online currency a decade before someone else did

>>992535
I stopped frequenting bitcointalk a while ago. It's gotten pretty bad. I wouldn't say it's as bad as r/Bitcoin but a lot of the threads are pretty painful to read.

>>992544
that thread was made back in 2013.

I don't go on there anymore either unless I'm looking for info/news

>>992542
I don't think there are backdoors to SHA-256 either. I am pretty sure there are backdoors in the elliptical curves that generate the keys though.

I am not really here to provide you proof. I said many times there is no direct evidence that I know of. Just a bunch of small pieces to a larger picture. To be honest, I'm not even trying to sway your mind or even think that I can. I don't know one Bitcoin hoarder who has ever reneged his positions and lost faith in the vision. Once you guys drink the koolaide, that's pretty much it.

>>992552
"Drinking the koolaide" was an unfair statement. There are those of you that are actually using Bitcoin for utility and not just hoarding it hoping to cash out later. That portion of Bitcoin users are a lot less cultish.

>>992552
>doesn't and can't provide proof other than vague lines point in vague directions

>surprised people don't submit to definite conclusions

Dude, my ears are all open.

Bitcoin is open source, and has been so since the beginning. If there were flaws in key generation, bad actors would have taken advantage of this and stolen large wallets, not small "horror stories".

If there were a flaw in the key generation, or a way to find private keys from public keys, bitcoin would not have lasted 7 years

>>992556
I don't even like going back to the backdoor theory because it is the least interesting thing that has been said in this thread. I just brought it up again because you referred to it as "magic" like these things have never happened before. The best way to try to disprove someone entirely is to try to pick out thier weakest point and keep going back to it. You keep mentioning the backdoor although the possibility was only brought up once halfway through this thread. Yes, it is possible the NSA doesn't have a backdoor to THIS elliptical curve even though they do have backdoors to other known elliptical curves. However likely, it is not a fact. Yes, it appears that even if the NSA has a backdoor that they haven't used it, yet. We can't be sure. I would like to move on and stop repeating myself now on the topic of backdoors if that is OK with you.

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>>992565
im going to bed m8. it's been fun

thnx senpai

>>992556
>surprised people don't submit to definite conclusions
This was a strange comment. Why would I be surprised? I'm not offering anything but theory here. When I said I don't know of one Bitcoin hoarder who has reneged his position, I didn't mean due to the possibility of bitcoin being created by the NSA, or anything that I personally have said. I meant in general. Obviously there are other anti-Bitcoin people who dislike it for a bunch of other reasons not relating to the NSA.

>>992568
Good night, bro.

>>992573
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011936.html

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=289795.0

a couple of neat links for you

>>992811
First link seems to be broken. I did browse through the thread on bitcointalk for a bit, though. It seems like there is still no general consensus on the stability of ECC in generating random numbers for use in private keys even after a considerably lengthy discussion. Again, I only raised it as a possibility. I don't think anyone truly knows for sure if it is compromised, save some potential bad characters.

>>992811
The most interesting tidbit I pulled from there is this:
>"We will continue to work with the best cryptography experts in the world, both inside and outside of government," said May. "At the same time, we recognize and agree with the VCAT that NIST must strengthen its in-house cryptography capabilities to ensure we can reach independent conclusions about the merits of specific algorithms or standards."
I didn't know that the NIST ever acceded that it was far outmatched by the NSA in thier capabilities. That's scary.

>>992572
>>992573
>>992811
>>993005
>>993014

Yes that is correct Gulden has more development compared to Bitcoin and any other coin.

>People call it the Google Giant of Crypto

>>994339
This

>>994339
>>995715
Ban this retard. Ban anyone talking about any crypto that isn't Bitcoin.

>>992494
>zero day
The code has changed way too much since the early days. The NSA hasn't got shit on Bitcoin, neither does any goverment. These guy's can't even crack Tor, which is known to come from the US army.

>>995725
Bitcoin fanboy supports Censorship?
Gulden maybe real danger for Bitcoin?
Thank you come again!

>>996825
Although the Gulden posts are a bit annoying, I tend to agree with this. If you don't think that Gulden has merit then make an argument for that, or just filter them out like many have done with Bitcoin threads. There is no point in trying to limit free speech on a website that was specifically designed to allow for (almost) any discussion without penalty or blowback. Another alternative is the website where you can downvote people for disagreeing with you. I am sure that environment is more conducive to healthy debate.