I have a question. But first: I've learned to resist the

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>why do you support it
Because life has no objective meaning and seeing numbers on a screen go up is just as valid a goal as any other.

>>1970276
>why do you support it?
Enjoy being a poor cuck.

>>1970283
/thread

>>1970276
>Complains about capitalism
>On a business (crypto containment) board

3/10 you made me respond.

>Why do I support it

It produces the most advanced societies

>>1970283
Why something that causes so much harm?

>>1970293
not anymore we're devolving

>>1970285
can you answer the question without attacking my standpoint

fucking shills

>>1970276
You don't need to be working for another person in order to earn money. You can always start your own business and let others work for you. But well, it requires effort, right? You're not lazy, but dumb as shit.

>>1970299
I support it because i have no other choice. You're either a poor cuck or a rich bull, sorry kid.

>>1970303
does that make it a good thing? why not try and stop this madness?

>>1970302
Then I too would be wrapped up in this game.

>>1970294
Because fuck you that's why.

>>1970311
gave me a giggle

>>1970299
>can you answer the question without attacking my standpoint
Your standpoint is bullshit though. Asking someone to answer your question as though they agree with the premise is nonsense.

>>1970309
Stopping it would require a WW3 with a holocaust 2.0 and that won't happen until europe is redpilled enough. Maybe in 30-50 years or so. The world must suffer more until they realize their true enemy.

>>1970313
you don't have to agree.

>is bullshit
why do you think that?

>>1970318
I wan't you to be wrong but you're probably right.

>Then I too would be wrapped up in this game.

What's the harm? Survival of the fittest, ma nigga. You either adapt to the "new capitalism" or starve yourself to death.

>>1970323
whats wrong with making your own food. Why is life a competition to you?

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>>1970322
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jdlZVhh6HI&list=PLLieK7epORgSQP3QwmTUGn2Xg9IQau_NW

Here you go senpai.

>>1970299
>Not anymore we're devolving
Communist societies will never exist, as of now mixed market economies are making far more advancements in the world as opposed to countries that are trying out communism as a pet project.

If you want out of the system, design alternatives, like cryptocucks are doing right now.

>>1970335
advancements, like technology? Yeah it we get new iphones each week but is the quality of life improving?

>>1970347
Yes.

>>1970333
this is long but your trips demand I watch

>>1970349
depends on where you look

>>1970326
I would like to live like that but it is not possible where i live right now. Also, i am a bit worried. What is the best for me? Modern humans are sheeps. They like to do what others do. I have so many choices and opportunitys, i dont want to waste them.

>>1970357
Overall global statistics.

>>1970363
do you think humans are the only thing that matter?

>>1970358
If you can find happiness more power to you. I'm not saying we can't live this life but we really do need to change how we think about.

>>1970365
Yes.

>>1970393
are homeless people not humans?

why do only humans matter?

>>1970398
Homeless people are humans, and the trend for them is positive too last I checked.

Only humans matter because we are a society of humans. Other things will matter if and when they become meaningful members of that society.

>>1970406
Thats right. Fuck animals, they dont matter. Be vegan instead.

>>1970406
lets assume for a moment that the only life in the universe is on this planet. That would make even the life of a fly unfathomably rare and precious. Why does what matter stop at who involves themselves with money. Homeless arn't meaningful members of society, so they dont matter even though humans matter?

>>1970422
What would happen if only humans existed on this planet?

>>1970422
Your first two sentences (which are correct) don't match your third (which you can make a case for, but it has nothing to do with animals mattering).
>>1970424
>That would make even the life of a fly unfathomably rare and precious
Rare, yes.
Precious, why?
If you consider other life to be precious, should you not kill yourself so that you no longer kill other life? Is your life more precious than theirs? Humans are incapable of surviving without killing living organisms.
>Why does what matter stop at who involves themselves with money.
I'll take "things I never said" for $100 Alex.
>Homeless arn't meaningful members of society
They are though.

>>1970437
I accepted I cannot live without killing, so I only kill what I need to so that I will not die. I don't like it but It can't be changed. I won't smash a bug because it doesn't keep me alive.

how is society not defined by money?
how do homeless contribute?

>>1970456
It can be changed. You can kill yourself or allow yourself to starve to death. If you needed an organ transplant to survive but no donor could be found, would you go out and kill someone to save yourself?
>how is society not defined by money?
We aren't an-cap.
>how do homeless contribute?
Homeless can work without being homeless, among other things. Besides, I never said anything about actively contributing. I said meaningful members of society. They have the potential to contribute at any time. A fly does not. That's even before you get into how treating humans in general affects other humans who are not homeless.

>>1970474
>Homeless can work without being homeless
Meant "Homeless can work while being homeless".

>>1970276
Pray tell OP, what will you use to compensate the doctor for his knowledge, time, and effort to mend you back to health should you fall ill on your moneyless farm?

How might you design to feed yourself through a long winter in the event you have a poor harvest this autumn?

By what mechanism would you attempt to acquire animal skin to shield your shivering body from the winter's bite, when your long summer days have been occupied tilling and toiling away in your fields?

How might you endevour to acquire the land you work in the first place, and what would stop other moneyless post-modernists from harvesting your hard grown crops in the dead of night, or even blatently, in broad daylight? By what means do you legitimate your claims to that produce?

>>1970474
killing myself wont change a thing. If there were no laws to prevent it then it would make sense for people to just take an organ to avoid death.
>contribute to society through working for money
you need to pick a standpoint sir

>meaningful means potential
hmm

>how does any of this affect me, i'm not homeless
it probably doesn't, society was built for people like you. but the living organisms it wasn't built for are left in the dark.

>>1970507
you already know that as it stands the answer to those questions is money, but we could just as easily use an honor based system since money is just a social construct who's meaning is only in our heads.

>>1970484
what about the homeless who can't work?

>>1970542
>killing myself wont change a thing
It will change a thing. Far fewer things will die without you around.
>If there were no laws to prevent it then it would make sense for people to just take an organ to avoid death.
If you think this, then you are a monster and should be locked up for the safety of mankind. If you haven't caught on yet, what I'm doing is showing you that your morality is nonsensical.
>you need to pick a standpoint sir
I have, it's just not the strawman standpoint you're trying to paint me with.
>meaningful means potential
>how does any of this affect me, i'm not homeless
More strawman.
>the living organisms it wasn't built for are left in the dark
Correct, because they don't matter.

>>1970563
Can still contribute in other ways and their treatment is still relevant to others. The knowledge that, should we one day become disabled and homeless, we would still be treated as people is important for social functioning.

>>1970570
>less things die with people around
so then I should Kill everyone to save everyone
>your morality is nonsensical
no you just see a difference between humans and animals. I would kill an animal for food, I would kill a human to replace my own parts if I could. Humans are, in fact, animals too.
>they don't matter
>>1970432

>>1970584
>less things die if there were less people*
fuck

>>1970584
>then I should Kill everyone to save everyone
Yep, that's the insane conclusion that your morality reaches. Congrats on doing the reductio ad absurdum for me.
>no you just see a difference between humans and animals
Right, because my morality isn't nonsensical.
>I would kill a human to replace my own parts if I could
Then I say you are a dangerous psychopath and should be locked up.
>Humans are, in fact, animals too.
All humans are animals, not all animals are humans. All animals are living organisms, not all living organisms are animals.
>what would happen if only humans existed on this planet?
Then the humans would die. Since humans are what matter, we must ensure that doesn't happen. Environmental controls are a means to that end.

Your problem is you have only looked at the surface level of things.

>>1970276
Nigger complains about "today's capitalism" not providing advancements for society as he sits here on his tippy-tappy-typewriter-wundermaschine that was impossible to build for under say $10,000 ten years ago, but which he has today for perhaps under 1,000

Look at the long game game, and by long I mean the longer than two years game,

Companies use these shitty practices to sort of hedge against the chaotic uncertainty of the market but ultimately their products have to be good enough to survive and meet an ever increasing standard

>>1970583
> my morality
i was rewording yours.
>isn't nonsensical
its nonsensical to think we don't deserve equal treatment
>humans would die
no shit, That is why everything other than humans who contribute to society matter just as much if not more.

your problem is you have only looked at the surface level of things.

>>1970542
>Money is just a social construct
This board is for 18+ anon.

The reason I not any of the other people in my thought experiment will accept being paid in honor is because while that might enable me to receive things back from you based on our 'honor' exchange, that doctor cannot use the 'honor' he received from you to acquire the medicine he needs to do his work, or the tools of medicine he lacks the knowledge to construct himself.

Money is exchange value, a fungible way to account for labor performed that allows that labor value to be exchanged between more than the two parties involved in your 'honor bound' transaction.

Why would I accept payment in 'honor' when I have no reasonable guarantee that others will accept the 'honor' you've bestowed to me? What can I do with the 'honor' given to me that was gained from you by the doctor, if you have nothing I need? If the answer is nothing, why would I trade my labor for nothing?

>>1970631
>I was rewording yours
False.
>its nonsensical to think we don't deserve equal treatment
I don't think that. All humans deserve equal treatment.
>That is why everything other than humans who contribute to society matter just as much if not more.
Nope. Humans are still what matters. Keeping the world in a state that can support human life is merely a means to that end. What happens to any individual non-person doesn't matter.
>your problem is you have only looked at the surface level of things.
Good comeback /sarcasm

>>1970605
thats why we have to change this selfish mindset

>>1970646
I was rewording yours assuming everything alive is the same.
>all humans deserve
what about non humans?

Whatever asshat its clear to me you only care about yourself and people like you. You arn't able to care for things you deem as lesser than you. It can't help me so why does it matter

You are a monster and you don't even know.

>>1970659
>I was rewording yours assuming everything alive is the same.
That's your view, not mine. My view is that humans and non-humans are NOT the same.
>what about non humans?
Nothing. They deserve nothing.
>Whatever asshat its clear to me you only care about yourself and people like you
I only care about people, if that's what you mean.
>You arn't able to care for things you deem as lesser than you.
There's no reason to. Morality exists to enable social functioning.
>It can't help me so why does it matter
I can help you if you pay attention.
>You are a monster and you don't even know.
You're the one who would go out and kill people if he could, not me.

Come back when you've resolved your cognitive dissonance.

>>1970673
you need to sit in the corner and think about your life if you're this closed minded. I hope you are never in a high military position.

>>1970303
This is what it comes down to OP.

It's not that we enjoy or endorse it, we literally don't have a choice. It's a game you're forced to play.

>>1970680
>closed minded
Ah yes, the eternal cry of the one who spouts inane babbling. My mind isn't closed, it just doesn't accept bullshit.
>I hope you are never in a high military position
Why not? People matter, therefore civilian casualties would be a factor to me. You're the one who should never be allowed near a weapon.

>>1970684
people are not all that matters. And neither is society. This is why you're closed minded. You need to step back for a while, you're too absorbed in your own ways.

>>1970683
what would you do if you did have a choice?

>>1970695
>people are not all that matters. And neither is society.
They are though.
>This is why you're closed minded.
No, this is why your position is bullshit, as I've already demonstrated.
>You need to step back for a while, you're too absorbed in your own ways.
I've actually thought about my position. You should try it.

>>1970702
>they are though
are not
>this is bullshit
closed minded

we can do this all day

>>1970711
>we can do this all day
I know, except that I can show that my position is consistent while yours leads to absurd self-destruction. That's the difference between us: you merely assert, I show the consequences.

there is consequences to not caring for the living being we share our planet with and rely on for survival. you don't understand the value of life. You only understand the value of money

>>1970737
>there is consequences to not caring for the living being we share our planet with and rely on for survival
Other than the survival of people, which is what matters in my view, what is the consequence?
>you don't understand the value of life
Okay. What value does life have? Explain.
>You only understand the value of money
Nope. Again, we aren't an-cap.

>>1970728
>whats the consequence
the destruction of our world

the value of life is not measurable and above all else. We are 1 planet of life among what seems like an infinite number of lifeless ones.

>>1970765
>the destruction of our world
I said "other than the survival of people." The destruction of our world goes against the survival of people. Please try again.
>the value of life is not measurable and above all else.
Why?
>We are 1 planet of life among what seems like an infinite number of lifeless ones.
So?

>>1970276
My question is, how do you not support it?

>>1970772
>try again
you know well enough not caring for other living beings will cause our destruction. But you chose to not care.

we value gold because its "rare"

the value of life is 1/∞ Nothing could be more rare and therefore valuable.

>>1970772
>other than the survival of people
the survival of all life in the universe. Not just you, you selfish prick

>>1970772
and to answer your confusion about the organ thing

you would kill someone trying to kill you. You think theres a difference between killing someone for your survival and killing someone for your survival

>>1970798
>you know well enough not caring for other living beings will cause our destruction
I don't know that actually. If we treat a cow badly before killing it for food, how does that cause our destruction more than treating that cow nice before killing it for food?
>we value gold because its "rare"
So you are arguing for market value? If so, all life has a numerical value from livestock prices and insurance policies.
>the value of life is 1/∞ Nothing could be more rare and therefore valuable.
You don't understand how gold is valued then.
>>1970804
Why is the survival of non-people life important other than as it affects our own survival? Tell me why instead of merely asserting it.

>>1970828
I would kill someone trying to unjustly kill me because such a person is a danger to society. Society would collapse if you couldn't defend yourself. The same reasoning cannot be used for killing someone to take their organs.

>>1970276
If you don't support it, what does it mean in practice? Do you refuse to use money? Are you stealing everything that you need? I don't see how you can function in the society without supporting the system, unless if you get off this website right now and go live deep in the middle of the woods as a hermit (and probably end up like Chris McCandless).

I'm not all that happy with the system we have. I can't change the entire world around me, though. So I'm focusing on the things that I can change, and I'm trying to improve my own life. Besides, I don't have the answers; I don't know how to make the best possible society, all systems seem to have their own flaws. This "honor-based system" that you're suggesting makes me wonder whether you're a troll or a very naive person >>1970542

>>1970737

It can be argued that understanding the. value of money is useful for the preservation of life. The reason why humans are driven to seek and accumulate resources comes from primal need to provide for them and their families and make sure their genes are passed on.

You are also falling in the logic trap that it is one vs the other. You can accumulate resources AND help preserve life. More resources = more chances to get your ideas out there and execute on them.

>>1970638
Are you just going to ignore this OP? It seems like you don't have an answer.

>>1970830
Lets assume an infinite amount of time. We continue to grow, we kick out everything that doesn't fit in our society. Insects, animals that can't do, eventually we wouldn't be able to sustain life. If the atmosphere doesn't become thick and too hot from our emissions to kills us the lack of plant life surely will.

>life has value
yes, but its isn't really measurable and it is much higher than anything else. just trying to help you understand.

>why is it important still?
Why isn't it important? There's no answer for this question. Why is human life important? You can say nothing matters or you can say everything matters. Its about how you look at it. But to say only 1 thing matters is selfish and stupid.

>>1970842
>there is a difference between killing someone for survival and killing someone for survival
The difference is in your mind and isn't real. "morality" is just how you think about it.

>>1970853
I don't function in it, I simply say no. We can change it if we work together. I'm not saying we should do that one, its just a possibility. First we need to get people to understand that not just themselves matter.

>>1970858
yes the age old survival of the fittest that has been around since the dawn of time. Perfect from the beginning idea. How can it be wrong if animals do it too? Its wrong if you care about those who are not the fittest. We can help preserve life but first we need to care about it. As it is we don't do much of the preserving of it. We're more concerned about our next paycheck.

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>>1970276
I don't support it, that's why I'm a NEET degenerate. How anyone can reasonably expect people to tolerate working 40-50 hours a week and having little time and energy for themselves, whilst not even being paid for 30-40% of their labor (because of the taxman and all the time they have to spend commuting/preparing for work) is beyond me.

Shove your system up your ass.

>>1970888
the answer is they're selfish. don't be selfish and there is no problem.

>>1970894
>Lets assume an infinite amount of time. We continue to grow, we kick out everything that doesn't fit in our society. Insects, animals that can't do, eventually we wouldn't be able to sustain life. If the atmosphere doesn't become thick and too hot from our emissions to kills us the lack of plant life surely will.
Why do you keep repeating this argument even after I've shown you several times that it doesn't work?
>yes, but its isn't really measurable and it is much higher than anything else.
Why though?
>just trying to help you understand.
You aren't though. You just keep asserting things.
>There's no answer for this question.
Okay, then I can ignore you.
>Why is human life important?
Because we are human. Human life matters because we decide that it does. This allows us to survive and function.
>You can say nothing matters or you can say everything matters.
Or you can say some things matter and others don't.
>But to say only 1 thing matters is selfish and stupid.
As I've shown, it's not selfish and it's more intelligent than your position.
>The difference is in your mind and isn't real.
In the sense that concepts don't exist in reality, sure.
>"morality" is just how you think about it.
Yes, but how you think about morality has consequences. My morality has consequences that enable people to survive and prosper. Your morality leads to everyone going around killing everyone else or starving themselves to death. My morality will outlasts yours.

>>1970294
Because I want to become the little boot, anon.

>>1970894

> Its wrong if you care about those who are not the fittest

What is "wrong" if not another "social construct" like you say money is? Morality is just another human invention that we put value into.

>>1970912
>i've shown you that it doesn't work
no you havn't
>why tho
its rare
>i can ignore you
you answer your own question in the next statement "because I say so"
>shows intelligent
that's the same logic as black lives matter and its common knowledge that all lives matter
>it has consequences
yeh if you get caught you go to jail because its against the law, Do it on an island with no one around and all of a sudden no one cares.

>>1970913
follow your dreams

>>1970924
can't argue with that, its just how I feel. I'm mad that its not common for people to feel the same.

>>1970929
>no you havn't
Yes, I have. Since people matter, we must ensure that our world can continue to support us. I've said this to you multiple times. This in no way means that we have to treat things well.
>its rare
I fail to see how that's relevant.
>because I say so
Alright, then since my "I say so" is better than yours, I win.
>that's the same logic as black lives matter and its common knowledge that all lives matter
It's common knowledge that all people's lives matter. I doubt many people care that you kill yeast to bake leavened bread.
>Do it on an island with no one around and all of a sudden no one cares
False. Why do you think laws exist in the first place? Do you think they were magicked into existence? No, people made them because some people like you fail to recognize why society is important. I'm sorry that you lack a basic sense of morality, but there you go. Maybe seek counseling?

>>1970944
yes, people matter, so do lions, bees, and trees. Its not just for our own survival but for the survival of all life. You're missing the whole picture.
>i win
except your logic is selfish greedy and therefore evil.
>why do laws exist
they exist because of people like you who have a problem with caring and it forces them to care.

if you ignore the law you were about to die, someone has something that keeps you alive and there's nothing to stop you from doing it you would do it. I'm rephrasing your own logic here and you still don't see it.

>>1970944
its the same logic as the girl who slaps the boy and says "you cant hit me i'm a girl"

you can't do that to a human, they're humans

>>1970276
Hd

Complains about money on the biz thread
>>1970276

>>1971006
>Its not just for our own survival but for the survival of all life.
Which comes back to why the survival of all life is important. By your own admission, you have no answer.
>except your logic is selfish greedy and therefore evil.
Nope, nope, and nope. My logic is consistent, helpful, and good.
>they exist because of people like you who have a problem with caring and it forces them to care
You're the one who thinks it would be fine to kill someone for their organs, not me. I care about people and do not require laws to do so.
>if you ignore the law you were about to die, someone has something that keeps you alive and there's nothing to stop you from doing it you would do it.
No I wouldn't.
>I'm rephrasing your own logic here and you still don't see it.
No, you aren't. You're rephrasing the logic that I applied to your position to show how absurd it is. This is the problem with you, not me.

>>1971015
Except not, because boys and girls are part of the same society.

>>1970828
>>1970804
>>1970798
Your posts sound uncannily like a freshman majoring in philosophy. I recommend stepping away from the computer and spending time with friends instead of arguing anonymously on 4chan.

>>1971021
>>1971028
>this blind
your logic is humans that are meaningful to society > everything else
my logic is everything is =

if there were no laws to stop you then survival of the fittest amirite

stop thinking about just yourself and try thinking for everything around for once in your meaningless life.

>>1971021
other than "because i say so" why are humans better than anything

>>1971049
>your logic is humans that are meaningful to society > everything else
My logic is that all humans are meaningful to society and > everything else
>my logic is everything is =
Right, which fails and leads to the problems already discussed where you have to kill yourself or others.
>if there were no laws to stop you then survival of the fittest amirite
Survival of the fittest doesn't mean what you think it means. As a social animal, humans that can function in society are more fit than humans that cannot. Morality is a trait that evolved.
>stop thinking about just yourself and try thinking for everything around for once in your meaningless life.
I've already given this far more thought than you have.

>>1970894
You're posting messages on the internet with a device that costs money. The internet connection costs money too. Unless if your living standards deviate massively from the norm, the place you live in costs money, and you have to buy your food instead of being self-sufficient. In the end you are functioning in the system and supporting it, even if you're doing it poorly.

>>1970899
How do you expect to convince people not to be selfish? What sort of incentive is there for people to welcome the idea of being paid in honor rather than money? Every person guards their own interests, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's justified for people to rather keep their income and quality of life, instead of accepting your economical model that sounds vague, idealistic and unsustainable.

Besides, you don't practice what you preach yourself either. You're selfish enough to shitpost and avoid work, instead of going out into the wilderness and cutting off your ties to the system that you dislike. How much of a chance you'll have convincing other people to stop being selfish if you can't even convince yourself?

>>1971061
Other than "because I say so" why is everything equal?

>>1971065
>all humans are meaningful to society
>humans that fit into a system we created are more fit than the ones who can't do anything
>i put thought into this
do you know what meaningful even means?
it means to have meaning. Being fit is a meaning. Humans are equal and unequal. your logic is flawed.

>>1971069
because we are all made of the same material.

>>1971068
>convince people not to be selfish
death. they want to be selfish they can figure out how to survive without help. put them on a boat and ship them out to sea. If you need a reason to help another person just get out.

this is mostly a joke. But its how I feel.

Honestly its something we struggle with no matter what we do. But just like our own desire for sex we can fight past it. To some it might seem impossible but it can be done.

>>1971113
>do you know what meaningful even means?
Meaningful (adj): having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose.
>Being fit is a meaning
A meaning, not the only meaning.
>Humans are equal and unequal.
Humans are unequal in some ways and equal in others.
>your logic is flawed.
False. My logic stands.
>because we are all made of the same material.
Okay, then my answer is because we are all part of human society.

On that note, I have shit to do. I hope you appreciate the time that I just spent on you and think about why your position is fundamentally flawed.

>>1971149
when you accept that all life is the same you see your flaws.

think about why you feel something is less then you, and then ask your self why. If you get an answer ask why more.

>>1971149
You're arguing with an anon that's either an underage teenager or has a cognitive disability, they're to dense to realize the glaring holes in every single one of their arguments, and will exercise mental gymnastics to try to justify their positions.

tl;dr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TbbvXK5QS8 should have been posted

>>1971182
what glaring hole do you see in my argument?

>>1970647
Wait, why?
I outlined the reason why this system produces more wealth and better things for every member of society in the long run

>>1971233
What about those who are not in our exclusive club? better iphones doesn't mean a better world

>>1970647
this was meant for
>>1970638
this

sorry for the confusion

>>1971238
Hwat then, defines a "better" world?

That is not a rhetorical question, but I want to say this that we deal with these sorts of dumb questions in remedial philosophy intro classes at the beginning of college and we can dismiss them as the unfruitful debates they are afterward.

If you really want something more high and principled than the accumulation of stuff like iphones by people via capitalism, then take the improvement of technology as the goal, and from that, the improvement of science, and from that knowledge, and from that understanding of the universe.

Because after all it was curiosity that really allowed us to reach such a high level of cognition as a species and spread out over the globe 100,000 years ago

>>1971200
Everyone who responded to you ITT has blown massive holes in your argument, which causes you to go back to "Humans are selfish, all environmental lives are the same, Capitalism doesn't work".

The reason why you're called a lazy, entitled, leech, is that you benefit from this system, while at the same time complain about a system, and make patently false statements about how capitalism fails because it doesn't advance mankind, whilst living in the most technologically advanced society of all time. We've eradicated many diseases, improved quality of life of most humans, and the number of people living in absolute poverty continues to decrease. You offer no solutions besides humans should be nicer, and argue for an arbitrary reason of parity between animal species, for no other reason than we're considered animal species. If/When you mature, you'll realize how cringeworthy this line of thinking is.

>>1971269
because it would cost 150$ just to apply to a local college. If it didn't I would.

>>1971280
> living in the most technologically advanced society of all time. We've eradicated many diseases, improved quality of life of most humans,
Most of that is in the past however, notice how i said "once upon a time it worked"

you offer no solution other than get to work lazy leech. The fact that poverty even exists is testament to how its failed.
it perpetuates "life is a competition" Despite the end result being the same.

>>1971280
thanks to capitalism we have people just getting jobs because it makes money. They dont have a real passion for their field. Those who do have a real passion but are dealt a shitty hand are not capable. Theres people with amazing ideas but can't make them reality because money. The people at the top stay at the top and those who get to the top from the bottom are simply lucky. Money is just causing us to run in place. Sure technology. But technology would've happened with or without money.

>>1971306
>Most of that is in the past however, notice how i said "once upon a time it worked"
Now I know you're baiting. I'm done posting, btw the reason why I offer no solution, is because I don't believe the system has that many issues as compared to the alternative, and the reason why I scold you is that you object to the system, yet partake in it. If you have such moral objections, then you should remove yourself from the system, and live off of the land.

>>1971355
I would if it were even possible.

>>1970899
Is the way in which they're selfish for not wanting to give their labor away for free at all relatable to the way that you are unwilling to 'work for anyone else?'

Why should you get to sit on your duff and use labor they provide for nothing in return?

You are the selfish one, you want others to provide labor while you offer nothing of value to them in return.

>>1971368
My unwillingness to work comes from not wanting to be a part of the system. Change the system I would have no problem.

I'm happy doing volunteer work. I pick up trash and sell aluminum cans for money.

>>1971379
Regardless of where your unwillingness to work comes from, it makes you selfish. You are selfish for wanting people to provide you with the value created by their labor in exchange for nothing.

What do you have to offer a doctor in exchange for his expertise, time, and labor, that both of you can agree is valuable? If the answer is nothing, but you still expect him to care for you, you are the selfish one.

>>1971392
I'm the selfish one but the doctor would refuse to help someone based on payment. Money > preservation of life logic.

I wouldn't honestly reply more to this thread if it wasn't so fun seeing OP get BTFO so bad

>>1971398
feel free to contribute, I can't believe how little life mattered on this board. I'm not at all surprised.

>>1971397
I'm glad you can admit you're the selfish one, that's a good start.

Now, if you are being selfish, which is bad, why should you have a right to that doctors labor, or even a right to the exertion it takes other people to keep you alive if you offer nothing to them in return? What if the doctor is busy all day with people who will show their appreciation for his labor with some kind of exchange value, why would he take the time to treat you, who offers nothing, if he is unable to treat everyone?

Your selfish refusal to offer anything in return for others labor is everything that is wrong with humanity.

>>1971408
I assume you're just trying to frustrate me, but it wont work. I was restating what you said. "oh, I'm selfish ey?" kind of deal. I thought you were smarter than that.

To answer this question, Its selfish to do something for someone and expect repayment. If you are a doctor and just want to get paid you are doing it for the wrong reason. You're just showing examples of how people are greedy and selfish.

Unlike this hypothetical doctor I'm actually willing to do things for other people without anything in return. Because seeing joy is all the payment i need. If more doctors had this mindset the world would start to become a better place.

>>1971430
No, it is selfish to expect others to do things for you and not give them anything in return. It is perfectly reasonable to expect an exchange of value when providing my labor to you. Why should you receive something for nothing?

Expecting to receive something for nothing is more selfish than expecting to receive something for something.

>Unlike this hypothetical doctor I'm actually willing to do things for other people without anything in return
I thought your opening premise, the reason people call you a leech, is because you are unwilling to work for anyone else, as stated in the OP?

>>1971408
Like I said before, I pick up trash and sell the aluminum I find. I also volunteer for a local homeless shelter handing out food. I help people that are in a crisis, and I ask for no money. I basically do live off the land by selling trash. You people could learn from me and follow my examples and help make the world a better place. Money is toxic to the mind.

>>1971430
>If you are a doctor and just want to get paid you are doing it for the wrong reason. You're just showing examples of how people are greedy and selfish.

Is it selfish for that doctor to charge only as much as he needs to support his life and his profession? You are still out of luck, since even at this low rate you are unwilling to offer anything in exchange for the doctors labor that he could use to sustain himself to continue doing good, to continue providing his life saving services to others.

If everyone was like you and refused to pay the doctor, he would not be able to sustain his life to provide his labor in the first place. If everyone was like you, there would be no doctor to help *anyone*.

>>1971461
Do not avoid this question - how is it more selfish to expect something in exchange for something than it is to expect something in exchange for nothing?

>>1971461
Wow, so you expect something in exchange for your labor of picking up the cans? It's almost like you're not willing to just collect them and give them away for free because it's selfish to expect anything in return.

>>1970276
>Why do you support it
Because traveling and family costs money

>>1971475
I couldn't imagine holding out my hand before giving food to a homeless man. To do so is almost monstrous. It would be selfish to get angry if you try to exchange something for nothing and get denied, sure.

>>1971482
I do it because I have to. Change the system and I won't have to.

>>1971488
people have been raising families and traveling the world for years before it was priced.

>>1971500
now it does tho and you are missing out.

>>1971507
I live a happy life, I'm not missing anything

>>1971494
What you are describing is charity, which is indeed the opposite of being selfish. But how did you obtain the handout you are about to give the homeless person in the first place? Furthermore, that homeless person has no EXPECTATION that you give them something. You are perfectly free to give away something for nothing, but it is very selfish to EXPECT to receive something for nothing.

You still have not told me why it is MORE selfish to expect something in exchange for something than it is to expect something in exchange for nothing.

>>1971500
At what point in history was anyone traveling the world at a time when money was not being used? Money has literally been used to represent exchange value since the Sumerian civilization - that is, the first one. Do you even realize how new a phenomenon it is that more than a tiny tiny fraction of the population ever leave their home town with any regularity?

>>1971522
I don't know how else you expect me to explain this to you. but it is more selfish for someone to expect to be replayed for helping someone than it is to be helped.

>>1971528
people existed before any recorded civilization. And to take a step is to travel the world. stop being stupid.

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>>1971113
>death. [...]
>this is mostly a joke. But its how I feel.

Jesus Christ, anon.

You kinda remind me of when I was an angsty teenager. I had too much empathy for the world and I kept getting sad about wars, famines, and other shit that took place far away and beyond my reach. I whined about how much suffering there is in the world, how unfair it is, and I wanted the power to change things. But burdening myself with all the wrongs of the world was bad for my mental health. It made me miserable. (I never wished death on anyone, though. If you would be willing to send dissidents to die, you sound like you're already thinking like a dictator, and your new society model would probably end up turning into a dystopia.)

I hope you can grow up a bit, move on from that world-saving phase, and focus on your own life. Selfishness isn't such a horrid thing as you seem to think. Being at least a little bit selfish helps you take care of yourself. And you don't have to give up your dreams either; one of the biggest reasons why I started taking money more seriously is that I still feel ambition to make a positive contribution to the world, and I realized I'd have more of a chance at that if I aimed higher in life.

>>1971528
I guess it can be explained by saying they have a lack of compassion if they expect repayment. Someone seeking help isn't a bad thing.

>>1971571
If we would just unite, Instead of every man for himself.

death isn't what you're doing. Death is what is implied since they wouldn't be able to make it on their own.

>>1971571
>aimed higher in life
the fact you think that more money means a better at life is disturbing. It shows you still have more room to grow.

>>1971564
>it is more selfish for someone to expect to be replayed for helping someone than it is to be helped.

But is it not more selfish to EXPECT to be helped in exchange for nothing, even the desire to give something in return, than it is to EXPECT to be given something in return for something else?

You keep turning this around to avoid the very obvious conclusion. You are allowed to give something to someone for nothing, that is not selfish. You are allowed to expect to receive something in return for something, at worst in this example both people are being selfish. But if you EXPECT someone to give something to you, and EXPECT them to give it to you when you have expressed that you are not in any way obligated to give something to them in return and have no intention of doing so, YOU are the one being selfish. Perhaps the other person is too, but at least they're willing to meet you half way. You're just being an entitled asshole who paints those trying to sustain their life in exchange for giving you something you need as 'selfish', while expecting them to give you things for free while claiming to have the moral high ground.

I say again, people like you who expect others to give them their labor as charity are the definition of selfish people, and represent everything that is wrong with society today.>>1971564

>>1971564
>taking one step is equivalent to seeing the worlds worth of natural beauty, experiencing other cultures, trying exotic foods, meeting people who can teach you things you had never considered
>I'm the stupid one

Honestly kid, just lol

>>1971564
Honestly, do you seriously mean to imply that you believe that pre agricultural civilizations traveled and experienced more of the world, on average, than a modern Westerner?

That is just pathetically misguided in so many different schools of history, technology, and even fucking basic geography. I feel bad for you if you are actually this ignorant.

>>1971599
>You are allowed to expect to receive something in return for something
> both people are being selfish
are you high.

Is it selfish to give nothing if you have nothing? You seem to think so. you sound retarded.

>traveling the world somehow means you go all the way around.
Listen kid, any distance traveled is traveled on this planet, the world, earth. how are you this stupid.

>Honestly, do you seriously mean to imply that you believe that pre agricultural civilizations traveled and experienced more of the world, on average, than a modern Westerner?
you're showing a lack of understanding the meaning of traveling. This is hard for you, I understand. When you get to school tomorrow ask your teacher what It means to travel.

>>1971620
>Is it selfish to give nothing if you have nothing? You seem to think so.
Show me where I said this.
What I said was it is selfish to EXPECT OTHERS to give things to you if you EXPECT AND INTEND to give them nothing in return.

>traveling the world somehow means you go all the way around.
The kind of travel I'm talking about is anything that can be accomplished only with the help of others. You know, the kind enabled by the existence of society and vehicles of exchange value, not walking from your mud hut to a fruit tree 20 feet away. You appear completely unable to make that distinction. Would you agree that the distinction even exists, or can we not even get past this basic premise?

>>1971635
>What I said was it is selfish to EXPECT OTHERS to give things to you if you EXPECT AND INTEND to give them nothing in return.
This would include people who have nothing to offer and label them as selfish. Witch they would not be.Your logic is wrong.

Thats not the only kind of traveling that exists. You're being very narrow minded.

how about you stop derailing and just gtfo.

>>1971653
which

>>1971653
No, because people with nothing to offer do no have the EXPECTATION of receiving anything. Or, if they do (like you), they are selfish. You keep changing my argument to fit what you want me to be saying.

Of course there are other types of travel, but the kind being referred to here, by you
>>1971500
In response to
>>1971488
Is with regard to travel that is enabled by society, and by effective means of distributing exchange value.

Or are you willing to admit your response above to the anon who mentioned travel was not about the kind of travel you're arguing in favor of?

>>1971701
We are talking about a system where money is not involved. Maybe in todays system where someone has nothing they wont receive anything.

You assume to know the means they are using to travel with. Pretty ignorant anon. I assumed no such thing. Traveling can be any distance from point A to point B. You're wrong and you hate it.

>>1970294
Because we motherfucking can

>>1971729
I respect your honesty.

>>1971732
I have drunken deep from the glass of cruelty

>>1971738
do you think you are a cruel person?

>>1971726
No, we're talking about a system where ANY exchange of labor is performed is exchanged for ANY OTHER form of labor value. If you expect someone to give you their labor value, and you have no expectation or intention of returning labor value of your own, you are selfish. No money involved.

You did not even attempt to address the fact that worldwide travel, or any travel for the purpose of experiencing things that are not accessible within your immediate vicinity, has been enabled for many orders of magnitude more people through the use of money as a means of exchanging labor value.

You are trying to muddy the waters to get away from the fact that the type of short term, small scale travel you are now referring to is distinctly different from that being referred to in >>1971488
and >>1971500 that is enabled by society and a means of exchanging labor value. People WERE NOT ABLE, the the extent that they are today, to travel in the manner being referenced in those two posts before the adoption of agricultural society and monetary exchange value.

>>1971741
Of course. I'm grateful for capitalism, though, as it lets us cruel and greedy people exercise our energies against one another and bid prices down for the little folk.

>>1971751
In the system being discussed in this thread you would contribute labor indirectly with the exchange. so no you are wrong still. you continue to assume you know the type of traveling he is talking about. You're breaking global rule 3 get out.

>>1971758
epipen.

>>1971774
Literally what are you talking about?
>In the system being discussed in this thread you would contribute labor indirectly with the exchange.

Are you trying to say that receiving someone else's labor value constitutes in itself labor performed by you? That is completely outrageous. You're saying that when you receive something for nothing, you're performing labor just by receiving it? You are even more selfish than I thought.

>you continue to assume you know the type of traveling he is talking about. You're breaking global rule 3 get out.

That's because this post
>>1971488
Was a direct response to your question in the OP of 'Why do you support it?', it being the very system of society and monetary exchange value that enables the type of travel he was very obviously referring to. I'm not assuming anything.

>>1971774
Also, just lol at you trying to worm out of admitting to a very obviously wrong position by complaining 'b-b-but he's trolling me! On 4chan!!!!'

Just to be clear, no I am not trolling you, you just expected this thread to be an easy affirmation of your worldview and you're upset you found something different.

>>1971810
you would contribute in other ways by helping society function. You would never pay a doctor directly. This is not selfish. It is not selfish if you don't even have something to offer such as being disabled. Still not selfish.

>its so obvious hes talking about riding in a car or plane can't you read between the lines.
You don't know what he means. All you can assume is that hes traveling. How is this an argument.
>how could he mean anything else
maybe he feels like he needs to have shoes on to walk. Maybe he needs a wheel chair. You don't know. Stop assuming.

>>1971829
If I wanted an easy life I would still live with my mom.

I'm not wrong he isn't seeing a bigger picture.

>>1971830
You are literally proposing communism at this point. Do you know why it doesn't work? Because there is no one outside of a transaction that has the authority to asses the value of the labor that is being exchanged between the two of you. If you're a shoemaker and you need the doctor, but he doesn't need any shoes, why would you allow a third party to directly compensate both of you for your labor value, and assess what that labor is worth? Why wouldn't use just use some fungible unit of exchange (money) to conduct that transaction between the two of you, cutting out the massive bureaucracy it would take to make those exchanges indirectly?

I literally never made any comment about modes of transportation. He was, without a doubt, as evidenced by the fact that his response was to your question 'why do you support society based on monetary exchange value', referring to those types of travel (i.e. Worldwide, enabled by society based on monetary exchange value) enabled by the system you asked about. Otherwise, you're basically saying you can't know if he was responding to the question you asked. Is that your position?

>maybe he feels like he needs to have shoes on to walk. Maybe he needs a wheel chair. You don't know. Stop assuming.
Literally all of these things have come into existence because we have a society that incentivizes people to exert their labor creating those things so they can receive monetary units of other people's exchange labor value.

>>1971835
I can't believe you actually thought my saying 'you expected easy affirmation of your world views' somehow mean 'you want an easy life.' At this point, given your writing style, I'm not even sure you know half of the words I'm using in my arguments.

>>1971869
I'm not reading all that
>comunism
more like an ant society

>>1971829
>>1971869
>samefagging
what a faglord

>>1971880
>>1971880
Perfect, I'll accept that as a concession to my points of you're such a sack shit you can't be bothered to read three small paragraphs. You've made it very clear you're not taking this discussion seriously, at all.

>>1971887
Yeah, I'm moving between mobile and wifi. And only someone who has well and truly run out of arguments would try to say that at any point I had tried to imply that any of my responses were coming from more than one person as a way to shut down discourse.

>>1971904
doesn't change the fact you're not right

>>1971880
>ant society
So like, a system where a central authority makes decisions about how resources should be allocated among a large population? Maybe the byline could even be 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.'

Does that sound about right?

>the ants really got it all figured out, man
>if only we humans could live like ants, boy that sounds like heaven

>>1971904
I like how you try to claim because we trade money inventions would've never happened

good thing we payed that guy to invent the wheel

>>1971909
Yeah, but the fact that you can't craft an argument because you won't ever bother to read what I've written sure does.

>>1971912
you don't know how ants work. The queen isn't in charge. That's a misconception by retards.

>>1971914
Yes, unless you make a wheel yourself you need to pay someone else you do it for you, that's correct.

>>1971919
Please, do enlighten me as to how ant society is superior to and can be applied to organized groups of humans.

>>1971922
>dodges statement
>>1971927
Study them yourself i'm not your biology teacher.

>>1971928
>not an argument
>it's not my job to make an argument to support my positions or statements

I guess it fits pretty well with your asinine refusal to do any work for anyone, at least.

>>1971938
>ur lazy cuz u wont tel me
you're lazy and stupid because you wont learn it yourself

>>1971938
you're mad cuz i've btfo'd you so bad you can't see straight.

Why i support this System?
Pretty simpel, i can exploit other, dont have to work by it and can buy things that make me happy..
had my stuggle with it because i believed hell existes, but since i now believe it doesnt exist i fully support a System that let me live a happy live

>>1971927
>condiscending statement and lack of understand of ant culture
discarded
>>1971922
>wheels are around because money
nope, discarded
>>1971879
>writing style determines English knowledge
nope discarded
>>1971869
>no money means communism meme
nope discarded
>shoemaker/doctor
goes to show your close minded if you think that's the only way it can work
>off topic travel discussion
>traveling and family costs money
it didn't always cost money
>yeah it has cuz civilization
nope, discarded
>money incentivizes people to invent
nope discarded

you're arguments suck and you suck at arguing.

How is that for a response?

>>1971991
what happens if you get bored of the trinkets?

>>1972017
What are trinkets, and a rich guy can do what a Poor guy can do i think

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>>1972004
lol literally not a single argument, and everything you greentexted is true

>>1972031
Trinkets like things that offer no real value but make you feel good/look cooler

example iphone

sure they have some things they can do but they're mostly for status.

I don't think a rich guy could get link

Lol ofc he can
And middleclass stuff is pretty nice but i prefer to buy experience, on jochen Schweizer, you find for ever sth fun to do, try it

>>1972085
>jochen Schweizer
What on earth is an experience voucher

He organizes canu trips, helicopter flying, gourme dinners and all kind of fun event if you run out of ideas to spend money, you cant spend oneday without fun with this website, money is not nice if you dont know what you can buy with it

>>1972152
Oh ok, Seems nice.

>>1972051
>offer no real value
You're the one deciding that. You're saying that you can dictate how an economy should run and who gets what the moment you start making judgement calls like 'the iphone is just a toy'. Now, I bet you don't even understand even a little of the amount of complexity involved in the construction of a single smartphone, how many industries it's created across the world, and how much useful technology and R&D funding for companies and the huge cultural shift along with it. It made the average person closer to tech, it made tech 'fashionable'.
All of this is not your decision to make. The government has a difficult time deciding what gets to be called legal or not, so pinning it down to 'it's just money' or 'people should just get along' implies to me that you have a better system of organization to distribute resources.

Communism? There are plenty of communes all over the world you know, you could live there. I think it's a bit much to ask millions to suddenly act and think as you do, and to value the same things you value.
Most people can't even drop sugar/caffeine/cigarettes from their habits, and you want to limit production of something like smartphones, which create infrastructure and wealth across the planet?
As for socialism, or spending taxes on the poor, there isn't a single western government that I've seen that isn't in some stage of doing that. I don't think you can even call our government and financial system 'capitalist' anymore, so you should be grateful that types like you are already well on their way to bleeding the wealth of the country dry.
It's not the money. It's the resources. Anyone who studies an economy knows that price of currency fluctuates. None of it matters if you use money with discipline and intelligence, which is sadly in short supply.

Can we cure stupidity? Should we force people to do what's good for them?

>>1972205
> Now, I bet you don't even understand even a little of the amount of complexity involved in the construction of a single smartphone
To be fair I used to repair them for money out of highschool.

Sure they're neat, but they're not a requirement in life.
>so you should be grateful that types like you are already well on their way to bleeding the wealth of the country dry.
I won't be happy until currency is a thing of the past.
>It's not the money. It's the resources
can you elaborate
> Should we force people to do what's good for them?
eventually we will probably have to

>>1970283
damn nice pic

How force them, the rich and powerfull have guns and bombs and more to offfer to fight for their side, i would rather join them in the classwarfare and even if you win then i would try to exploit the new system you establish sexcretly

A currency is not needed, capitlaisim can also work with exchange trade, its just slower and more unpractical

>>1970276
are you gay? go watch free to choose and shoot yourself, comrade faggot.

>>1972310
>Sure they're neat, but they're not a requirement in life.

same like free time and wealth, not requierment but neat, i am not happy by living like a communist neandertaler