Higher minimum wage -> More spending power beyond bare necessities,

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>>1799710
i support minimum wage increasing with inflation since its pretty high atm

thats about it though

>>1799710
I think we should raise it to around $100 an hour.
That way, everyone can stay connected with current tech, buy homes, and contribute to worthy charities.

>>1799710
Raising the minimun wage will mean that the worth of your labour is raised without the quality of your labour being raised. So you are earining more than you deserve. And if yo are earning more than you are contributing you will most likely lose your job. So if a bunch of low-skilled workers lose their jobs they will depend on welfare and cost society. Immigrants will also see the amount of low skilled work and come in. They will work in the black market. sooo yeah

>>1799734
I hope you are trolling you fucking Socialist

Son of a small business owner here. This would be their worst nightmare. If you're on minimum wage it's your fault. Fuck off with this conjecture and fantasy left wing twaddle.

>>1799739
Too on the nose?

there are two ways to force higher inflation:
increase the interest rates (that would fuck the debt bubble pretty hard)
set a new zero to wages (ubi or minimum wage basically all result in an adjustment of wages across the table)

I think small incremental increases are still the best. You can't just increase it to $15 on a whim.

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>>1799710
Min wage should be adjusted every year with inflation.

>>1799774
it's one of the things that drive inflation. can't you guys understand this simple concept? you keep increasing it "with inflation" inflation will just keep on devalueing your currency.

>>1799777
Lol. Increasing min wage does not cause inflation. how about you do a bit of research before you spew shit from your mouth

Basic income -> eliminate minimum wage -> society becomes a little closer to a utopia

I dont get why people equate raising the minimum wage to communism and start talking down on people who happen to provide unskilled labor rather than a long term investment in a domestic economy

>>1799834
>he thinks dindus wouldn't just lounge on ubi
kek

margin productivity
if you work at mcdonalds and generate 100$ an hour of revenue, substract all the costs of running the place and paying the boss, then you get what you're worth. Problem is most bosses claim too much for themselves.

I bet margin productivity of a mcdonalds worker is more than 8$ an hour but thats where you can debate about.

>>1799845
>He thinks dindus will lounge around instead of fucking like rabbits for some more sweet sweet child support government money

>>1799834
Every national attempt at "utopia" has resulted in horror.

>>1799825
it has to. whenever they increase the minimum wage a greater amount of money is in contest for the same amount of goods at one part of the equation. and on the other side of the equation when i look at what wage i want to negotiate the first thing i look at is the minimum wage. and i roughly know how many times i want to get that at the very least. and others do the same min wage workers cost per hour is the reference kind of multiplied by skill level.

now you have to watch it with official inflation data because the basket is heavily manipulated, for example in the past years there was no inflation to speak of here officially and interest rates are super low but i pay 40% for my rent and at least 10% more like 20% more for food than in say 3 years ago. my wage also increased by 30%.

so that's how it is.

>>1799863
oh and in the rare occasions minimum wage increase does not result in more inflation it's either the increase was still less than inflation or the unemployment went up with the min wage increase decreasing work security and competition both.

>>1799853
well setting a new zero to work hours cost will certainly result in horror. hyperinflation is no fun.
it could be done when the 90% of the population becomes unemployable and the remaining 10% earns so fucking much they don't notice the ubi much. for now it would be catastrophic.

>3 minimum wage increases in the last 10 years is not enough
>Somehow this next minimum wage increase will catapult poor people into the middle class
>scrapping the welfare state and just showering people with cash is utopia
>Letting people work for whatever wage they negotiate and keep all of what they earn would be so terrible we can't try it.

Always a fun conversation

>>1799895
yup there should be a minimum amount that does not get taxed on wages, and the next tax bracket should only apply to the amount above it. lot of time and energy would be released if you didn't tax poor people so you can give them handouts later.

>>1799825
of course it does , look at the definition of cost push inflation .as we all know wage is the cost of the production

>>1799906
that's only the production side you have to consider the demand side and the cascading effect also.

>>1799907
perhaps it indeed might rise prices in other ways but the main case here is the rise of the production cost

>>1799915
domestic production only, and even that might not be immediately felt on prices. 3 major and interconnected ways can minimal wage cause inflation. it takes a little time for it to propagate you won't see it right that year maybe.

logical arguments for minimum wage can be made by both sides, so empirical evidence is all that matters

>>1799952
alright find me an economy where nothing changed only they increased the minimal wage and let's look at the data.

>>1799902
Yeah I wouldn't mind if like the first $8 an hour was tax free and we got rid of the actual "minimum" wage. It would allow people to work for like $5 an hour and be just as well off.

eat the poor

>>1799952
but the amount and quality of arguments against it overwhelms those for.

>>1799710
>money gets actually saved for bigger purchases rather than quick fixes
you dont understand poorfags very well do you?

>>1799710
>minimum wage increases
>necessities costs are increased to bring more profit
>poor workers can still only afford necessities

Are burgers really saying they don't have a tax free income bracket?

The thread should have ended here. >>1799737

This is basic economics, only people that """think""" with their feelings rather than reason and socialist retards agree with raising minimum wage.
If anything, the minimum wage should be abolished, so people that aren't skilled enough to be worth minimum wage payment could enter the workforce and learn skills.

>>1799737
But if the price of the goods/service being produced is being raised, then this means the contribution of the worker into the economy is also being raised.

Without minimum wage being raised in line with goods and service prices being raised, then the contribution of labour far surpassed the value of labour.

All that happens here is that those who supply this labour cannot benefit from their contribution as they can't afford their share of goods and services.

If this carries on for too long, then the gab between contribution and value widens for low paid workers to such an extent that it the labour becomes an inadequate form of income and these people then become a drain on the economy.

This either forms a lack of production, or causes labour to be replaced by machines... Which is already what is happening and will only accelerate.

If the minimum wage doesn't increase with inflation it's pretty damn useless

>>1799751
Why not make it $1 billion /hr
That way everyone only has to work 1 hour and can retire

>people on a business forum unironically arguing for ubi or any minimum wage at all

I remember when I was 19

>>1799902
>what is the standard deduction

>>1800684
That sounds even better.
We could make it so you could sue the government if you got fired, too.
Everyone wins!

>>1800694
have no idea how your tax system works
i hardly know my own intimately

>>1800690
Eh, I'd be for ubi if it meant every other single form of government assistance and schlock was done away with, but that wouldn't happen.

>>1799739

>Socialist

Why is socialism so bad?
On average democratic socialist countries have much happier populous than compared to non-socialist democracies.

>>1800794
Please refer to Greece and Venezuela

>>1800794
>Why is socialism so bad?
Are you genuinely asking or should I insult you? Also,
>measuring happiness

>>1800807

Please refer to Denmark, Norway, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium and many more.

>>1800822
yeah gdp per capita really makes a difference doesn't it?

>>1800822

>mfw Ameriburgers keep thinking that
Scandinavian countries, Canada, Netherland, Belgium etc. are based on socialism

>>1799710
There shouldn't be a minimum wage.

>>1800888

Nice trips.

They aren't 100% socialist, no country is. They're just significantly more socialist than other countries such as the US.

>>1800899

Americas economy is alot more regulated than ANY of those countries you mentioned. USA is more "socialist" than any of those countries.

>>1801756

I meant market instead of economy.

protip: more capitalism= more free market

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>>1799710
learn basic economics

and stop being a communist you faggot

>>1799710
>goverment forces me to spend more on you than I am willing to pay you -> I don't hire you

Congrats, now you make €0/h. Good luck with all that "spending power".

>>1801840
This is what fools don't understand. Same thing with any price control. This is basically how government intervention creates shortages: you can force people to charge less for a good (like rent control), but you can't force people to develop housing. And as long as there are other parts of the market to invest in, people will put there money into things that they think will be more profitable

>>1799741
I'm sorry your business model is so bad that you need slave wages to have any chance of functioning.

>>1799710

What if I just use the low wages of some jobs to motivate me to get better jobs?

>>1800794
Based on a study: the more ignorant you are the more happy you will

>>1799956
Germany added minimum wage 2 yrs ago.

>>1799715
this

you can't have minimum wage increasing without inflation also increasing, otherwise you have massive shit problems

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>>1799710
>Higher minimum wage

Lefties get out.

REEEEEE

>>1803639
and they doubled their inflation which was probably the goal all along.

>>1803219
>so happy he couldn't finish the post

>>1799715
Saved.

>raise minimum wage
>most people in minimum wage jobs are in unskilled jobs
>unskilled jobs are the easiest to automate
>people on minimum wage are replaced by computers and self service machines as these options become more viable
>minimum wage cucks become NEET

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>>1799710
>raise minimum wage
>employers have to charge more
>inflation rises
>minimum wage fags are no further ahead in life, while people who made a little more now make less.

Nice solution.

Also, raising minimum wage just gives employers more justification to do pic related.

>>1799710
>So why do people oppose raising the minimum wage again?
Because it's fucking retarded and causes unemployment.
It needs to be abolished.

Look what the minimum wage did to Pueto Rico and American Samoa.

>>1800794
>On average democratic socialist countries have much happier populous than compared to non-socialist democracies.
>le happy index

Switzerland is one of the most capitalist countries on earth and they have higher living standards than Scandinavia.

Please kill yourself you brainwashed cuck.

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>>1800822
>mfw I'm canadian and this brainwashed leftist actually thinks my country is socialist

Please just fucking kill yourself you socialist turd. How fucking stupid are you people?

>>1799774
>I support perpetual inflation that doesn't occur due to supply and demand.
Neck yourself.

Abolishing central banks and allowing natural deflation helps the poor and middle class far more than a minimum wage increase will.

Libtards and corporations don't want that though.

>>1804028
Switzerland has a well functioning social system and scandinavia is not a country you dumb fuck.

>>1804044
>Switzerland has a well functioning social system
What does that even mean?
USA has the same fucking shit. Welfare.

The difference is hardly anyone in Switzerland uses the welfare system. People in Switzerland WORK.

They're one of the most capitalist nations on earth so they have some of the highest wages on earth and the lowest unemployment. They also have the highest local purchasing power.

They also have private healthcare.
Sorry if this destroys your delusional socialist narrative.

>scandinavia is not a country
I was referring to all of the Scandinavian countries collectively.
How stupid are you?

>>1804048
>>1800794 #
>On average democratic socialist countries have much happier populous than compared to non-socialist democracies.
>le happy index

Switzerland is one of the most capitalist countries on earth and they have higher living standards than Scandinavia.

Please kill yourself you brainwashed cuck.


> switzerland = democratic socialist country. Retarded cunt.

>>1804059
>democratic socialist

>unions are only 20% of the workforce and RARELY go on strike
>most of everything is privatized including healthcare
>banking culture permeates society
>currency with very low inflation and sometimes deflation
>low taxes
>low regulations

How in the fuck is this democratic socialist? They're more free market than USA is.

Please continue being butthurt though, this is hilarious.

>>1804032
not sure about that capital flees deflation when corps move out of a country poverty remains.

>>1804075
>capital flees deflation when corps move out of a country poverty remains.
Prices come down in the home country, both for capital and consumer goods.
Jobs get created in other sectors of the economy.
High paying service sector jobs become more abundant.

If other countries do the manufacturing and my country gets cheap consumer goods, that's a really good thing.

It's the difference between 1st world and 3rd world countries.

>>1804064

> why would they go on strike with every one earning a huge salary, even in the lower education sector? (Keyword: high virtual minimum wage)
> inflation: pricelevel is extremely high already, why would prices increase even more? It would need the wages to increase even more
> people in the US also work... average inome is 20k$ per year. Some need to work 2-3 jobs to feed a family.
To put it in basic macroeconomic terms for you:
Higher wages => higher consumption => higher production => more growrth => $$$
Thus, minimum wage has a positive effect to the economy. If the wages ware too low to be able to live off the income, people rather kill faggots like you on the streets.

>>1804096
Why are you putting your own words in quotes?
Do you not know how to use this website?

>> why would they go on strike with every one earning a huge salary, even in the lower education sector?
Yes. Wages are high in this country thanks to their free market policies.

>Higher wages => higher consumption => higher production => more growrth => $$$
Of course high wages are good.
What is your point?

>minimum wage has a positive effect to the economy
No it doesn't.
It destroys jobs for people who aren't productive enough to make above the minimum wage.
They will have NO job, meaning there is LESS consumption.

What do you think happened in american samoa?

>people rather kill faggots like you on the streets.
LOL
Can you even speak english?
It's like you quoted the wrong post and started spewing a bunch of irrelevant bullshit.

>>1804118

What exactly are you criticising regarding my english abilities?

You greentexted your facts, I answered to them in the same manner. Are you fucking stupid?

companies like mcdonalds pay a low single figure percentage of taxes and you are telling me they can't afford to compensate their workers properly?

If the minimum wage leads to technological innovation that can substitute workers, this is considered a positive technology shock that would only further increase productivity. Low wage jobs will then be created elsewhere due to structural changes.

I didnt read this whole thread but i figured you are against minimum wage, which you actually are, so no, i am answering to the exactly the post i meant to... namely yours.

>>1804118
Typing on the ipad sucks... you can keep the double words

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>>1804149
>What exactly are you criticising regarding my english abilities?
Maybe because you just misspelled a word and made a run-on sentence.
lol

>You greentexted your facts
You used it totally wrong. Why would you put a question in a greentext? Are you legitimately retarded?

>If the minimum wage
Nobody was even talking about the minimum wage.
This was a debate on whether Switzerland is a free market or socialist country.

Like, what the fuck. Are you actually this dumb?

>>1804165
It was a rhetorical question, dumbass.
It was implicitly invalidating your greentexted argument and thus it was not a question.

Every first world country has a free market. Switzerland as any other developed country has socialism and free market, so the question if it is one or the other is utterly stupid.

>nobody was talking minimum wage
This whole thread is about just that.

I see you are an expert on greentext rules, but have no clue about economics.

>>1804165
And wow, you found some misspelling on 4chan by someone typing on a tablet.
You are clearly the winner of the argument now.

>>1804185
>It was a rhetorical question, dumbass.
So that means I don't have to answer it?
Good.

>Every first world country has a free market.
No.
Some are much more free than others.
Switzerland one of the top 3 freest out of all 1st world nations.

>Switzerland as any other developed country has socialism and free market
No it doesn't. They have the LEAST amount of socialism in their economy.
That's WHY they are so successful.

>This whole thread is about just that.
I wasn't talking to anyone about the minimum wage in this thread until you started talking to me about it randomly.

>but have no clue about economics.
Coming from the guy that's probably a keynesian.

>>1804189
>You are clearly the winner of the argument now.
Of course I am.

>>1799710
1st point is wrong
2nd point is offset by higher prices and unemployment
The rest can't possibly follow

>>1799710
>Higher minimum wage -> More spending power

I'm actually for minimum wage increases in places like America, but that's just blatantly wrong.

>Wages increase
>Businesses raise prices to maintain healthy profit margin
>Spending power decreased

>>1799762
>increasing interest rates boosts inflation

This only happens from a neo-Fisherite perspective

>work hard to build skills that make above min wage
>let's say 12/hr-15/hr
>min wage raised, now losers who were making 9 make 12
>my wage isn't increased
>effectively lost everything I had gained

Thanks liberals.

Also, everyone I work with feels this way. Burger flippers want 15 a fucking hour? we laugh. There are literally jobs that require degrees that don't make 15.

Just tie the wage to either inflation or to the highest earner in the company like the CEO. Done. Now you've preserved the hierarchy while elevating everyone, not just the stoner dropouts. Thanks.

>>1804617
no actually it's pretty common sense and widespread knowledge, see long term the inflation trends to the interest rates, short term they can move against each other but that's temporary.

>we shall raise the rate of wages which, however, will not bring any advantage to the workers, for, at the same time, we shall produce a rise in prices of the first necessaries of life, alleging that it arises from the decline of agriculture and cattle-breeding:

>we shall further undermine artfully and deeply sources of production, by accustoming the workers to anarchy and to drunkenness and side by side therewith taking all measure to extirpate from the face of the earth all the educated forces of the "goyim."

>in order that the true meaning of things may not strike the "goyim" before the proper time we shall mask it under an alleged ardent desire to serve the working classes and the great principles of political economy about which our economic theories are carrying on an energetic propaganda

nice job retards

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/kidd/thesis/pdf/protocols.pdf

>>1804765
Thanks for this

>>1799762
How does a high interest rate raise inflation?

>>1805518
the way new money is created driven by loans today and loans and bonds interests are adjusted to the interest rate logically. so long term the new money flowing into the system is a function of two things: interest rates and velocity of money. short term the velocity of money is a more important factor it's an immediate multiplier on the money supply. the other affects the growth of base money supply.

>>1806258
funny thing is central banks like to do two things to fight deflation:
1 they cut interest rates which results straight in a real estate bubble
2 they try to drop money on the market called qe and this results in a bubble in the stock market or the whole financial market

but neither of them does anything for the underlying problems causing deflation or the production sector or the private citizens spending power.

what they do is make the situation worse. much worse. when these bubbles pop because the low interest rates long term just get you closer to deflation, so you have to raise them, a lot of people will lose about half his wealth.

i"m not an expert of this stuff this is just my crude understanding how it's supposed to work out by the critiques of the fed.

>>1799825
Yes it does
Business spend more money with wages + people have more money to spend

>>1799710
higher minimum wage ->
companies all have to pay employees more->
companies all have to charge more to still make profit->
consumer has to pay more for goods and services.

>>1799715

The amount that a job generates in revenue isn't the same as the wage the employee gets paid.

i would still like some faggot to prove how universal basic income will not lead to hyperinflation. that could be used to prove minimum wage does not result in inflation in the long run.

so far from what i seen their argument boils down to "there would be no new money created for this we just redistribute the existing sum" which totally ignores the markets price determination/discovery mechanism both for consumer goods and both for wages.

>>1800807
>>1800822

This has everything to do with average IQ. Tax burden creates a drag on where population naturally end up according to the quality of there people. Per capita income by IQ is remarkably consistent globally, with variances depending on political system (which is why 100 IQ whites make more money in America vs Europe)

>advocating welfare in nations where a substantial of the population suck balls

Yea doesn't work in non white or non East Asian countries

>>1799710
Higher minimum wage ->

Employers were only hiring human labor because wages were so low ->

Invests in automation instead ->

Barely anyone has a job

all that said i support the raising of the minimum wage because not having a job is actually a good thing.

>>1799710

Higher minimum wage ..> everything else gets pricier and it's harder to get a minimum wage job so more people go on benefits

>>1807729
hyperinflation is now and has always been a meme
its literally the thing they say when they want to oppose something but have no rational reason as to why. hyperinflation isn't even a thing that can really happen without the money supplier making it happen and forcing it to continue happening.

>>1808167
universal basic income tests in poor african countries has found it worked better than traditional business investment.

>>1804096
>higher consumption => higher production => more growrth => $$$
This reminds me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2EA_vycLD4

I know that's not what you said, but higher consumption NEVER equals higher production. This is basic supply/demand curve macro economics. Production and consumption don't affect each other. Supply and Demand can only effect price or quantity, cetis paribus. Correct me if I'm wrong, however.

I do think underemployment is a massive issue but I'm not sure raising the minimum wage is the answer. Honestly states should experiment with a system that allows the worker to work for less than the minimum wage and see how that goes. Also, the U.S. has had massive increases in consumption, but as you may know, manufacturing has left the U.S., in order to reduce production costs. I think the best solution would be to crack down on illegal employment, and give preferential treatment to American citizens for jobs in the United States. Have a system similar to affirmative action for American adults. I honestly don't have the solution, but this seems like a decent idea.

>>1799715
I think Brazil and a few other countries did that decades ago. It turned into a snowball rolling downhill

>>1803205
The cost of living isn't the same as coastal cities everywhere in the country.

>>1808456
>>1808467

1.What the fuck is scarcity?

2.How jewish are you?

>>1800684
GENIOUS

>>1800794
And non-socialist democracies are happier than socialist non-democracies. What's your point?

>>1799710
>So why do people oppose raising the minimum wage again?
because it was raised in 2009 and it did nothing whatsoever.

raising the minimum wage is good but by itself its fucking useless.

without trumps ideas like anti-free trade and less regulation and less taxes its useless.

>>1808467
so the only positive example is where it replaced walfare in a non free market capitalism with no significant and highly skilled employment at place.

how much that helps us about the developed world exactly?

>>1808599
dude have you any idea how fucking ridiculusly gard for an alien to legally work in the us? do you know what it costs to the employer? shit is about as peotectionist as it gets.

why dont we just raise it to $1 million so everyone can be rich?

>>1799710
Its a price floor dumbass (it doesnt work very well). Go take microeconomics

>>1799710
>literally is a scam designed to reduce the amount of debt

Libcuck here, any increase to the minimum wage is meaningless as most jobs in this range are low education/low skill jobs that are on the way to being automated anyways. The problem is our cultural views on labor and compensation. Most low wage workers are in jobs that are deemed low value. There is no reason to compensate them because they are easily replaceable cogs that are quickly becoming obsolete. In the long term we are bleeding our self out as these people just create a larger and larger underclass that will cannibalize the rest of the economy. A change in our value systems seeing labor compensation as an investment toward a stable economy would need to happen but I personally don't see that happening any time soon. The next best thing is legalize and fund cheap to free abortions. Despite your outliers of the rare "welfare queen", most in poverty if given the option of not having an accidental child burden will choose to not add to the population if it isn't a major cost on them. Simply let the poor weed themselves out.

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>>1809136

>libcuck
>suggests weeding the poor out
>libcuck