Are sentient being masters of their own fate or is everything

My personal theory is that we live in our own universe/reality in which we live the longest life possible. Everything that happens in the universe you are experiencing simply happens because that event will somehow allow you to live the longest. You can roll this into any theory you like.

>>744044946
so like the many worlds interpretation/quantum suicide. but is there different possible routes so long as they don't lead to your death and why does choice create an entire universe separate from everything else I would say that there is either one universe with everything one way or there is uncertainty which eventually becomes one way and not all ways possible. I would say your idea puts to much value on life and choice.

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Bumping the thread, this is relevant to my interest as I am also a sentient being.

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Bump

>>744044209
Destinies might be set in stone, but flowing water erodes the rock.

>>744046383
Cool metaphor, elaborate.

>>744046193
the human experience is beyond comprehension even for humans. What meaning or ideas can we find from breaking down what made us who we ?

>>744046471
There might be a plan set in place for you, but only you can carve your own path if you so desire.

>>744046608
where does this path come from and why can we change it

>>744046866
I take it in the context of something like family expectations or lineage, but you may contextualize it however you want.

You don't HAVE to do anything. You have complete control over your life even up to when you will stop having one. People might want certain things of you, oftentimes for your betterment (example, University), but they cannot prevent you from becoming a homeless bum who lives under a bridge. Sure it isn't the best idea in the world, but if it's what you want to do, then go right ahead.

>>744044209

Why do these dumb threads always have a colossal paragraph of like 500 words?

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>>744047187
You're missing it, the potential for you to live under a bridge may not exist at all.

>>744047187
what I am saying in the post is that even your choice of doing something or nothing is just reaction to stimuli that if you were put in the same situation with no differences you would make the same choice and because the stimuli which affect you are predetermined you have no choice

>>744047350
The bridge was nothing but an example. You can choose to live or die whenever and where ever you please.

>>744047441
This is what I'm struggling with myself. How can I steer my ship if I'm not even on a boat, or in water, or able to navigate the seas, because there are no seas. How can I choose if I've already "decided"?

>>744047441
Isn't necessarily true. Choices are dependent on previous experiences and personal preference.
>>744047598
There is nothing stopping you from going somewhere to "steer your ship".

>>744047449
That is an illusion, you're either going to live or die and your choice is not your own. It's an illusion. We think we choose, but it's already been determined through genetics and circumstances.

>>744047598
you can't, that's the worst part there is either unpredictability without reason or predeterminism with reason.

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>>744044946
>>744044209
>>744045700
that sounds gay
only reason to live long is to get quints once.

>>744047713
You always have at least one choice you make at any given. Deciding to kill myself right now (if I was so inclined) would be MY choice and no one else would have a say. I could call my mom and ask her what she thinks, but regardless of what SHE wants, there is nothing stopping me from jumping off a roof, hanging from a ceiling fan, etc etc.

>>744047702
that is what i am saying that your past experiences and your personal preference are either random and give no meaning to choice or predetermined with reason but without choice

>>744047980
If you're genetics and brain chemistry and experience led you to off yourself, there is nothing to stop it. You are literally the result of mechanistic biological processes. You have no choice.

>>744047980
what I mean is that everything is governed by the laws of physics and in any situation, there is only one possibility that if in the same situation with no differences you would make the same choice

>>>/x/

>>744048074
Isn't at all what I thought your post said, but regardless. While it is often the case your choices are influenced by YOUR OWN previous choices, it is also possible to CHOOSE to ignore them.
>>744048160
But I can. There is NO "genetic" code that tells you to kill yourself. That is literally counter-intuitive to the definition of life itself, but thanks to CHOICES, I can quite literally die whenever I so please.

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>>744048074
Solid gold, have some tits.

>>744048349
How do you not realize your contradiction? Your choice not to off yourself isn't your "choice" ask someone who's tried. Free will is a comfortable lie.

>>744048349
choice is reaction to stimuli including previous experiences so if you were put in the same situation with the same stimuli then you would make the same decision that means you can't choose anything other than what you did choose it is a set path

>>744048349
>>>744048074
>Isn't at all what I thought your post said, but regardless. While it is often the case your choices are influenced by YOUR OWN previous choices, it is also possible to CHOOSE to ignore them.

Y'all are talking past one another. There's an obvious sense in which we choose based on our circumstances and preferences. And, of course, it feels like we choose freely. The problem that the hypothesis of causal determinism introduces is that those preferences we have today were determined by physical laws and the state of the nascent universe billions of years ago. There's a sense then in which we don't own our own choices--they're the result of antecedent conditions and the laws of nature. In other words, our actions were causally determined long before we were born. We can't "do otherwise" than what we were determined to do.

>>744048535
Yes. It is my choice. There is LITERALLY NOTHING (except my own CHOICE to not do so) that prevents me from dying right now as we speak.

>>744048769
But you can. You are your own agent of free will. We could sit and argue about this all day to be honest, but I think as long as we all believe something that's good enough for now.

>>744048777
objects fall because of physics is your ability to choose stop you from falling? no. choice is not all powerful it to is governed by the universe and if the universe is predetermined so are your chioces

>>744048777
See>>744048769

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Bumpin the thread

>>744049063
>You are your own agent of free will.

Without a lot of fleshing out that just amounts to denying the assertion.

Think of it this way: The deterministic hypothesis is that every state of the universe is in principle explicable by reference to the antecedent conditions and the laws of nature (with maybe some quantum randomness thrown in). But if that's true, then the microphysical-chemical-electric brain states that underlie our preferences are subject to those same rules, no? And if that's the case, why isn't it proper to conclude that they were just as determined as any other physics-governed process in the universe?

>>744049674
I can fap to this. Good show ol chap.

I put this thread on /sci/ and /b/ is contributing a lot more of a conversation

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>>744050000
Quints don't lie.

>>744050000
chexmixed

>>744049674
How could this be disproven? Would we need an entirely different reality to test this?

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everything is predetermined cuz atoms control everything and everything is a chain reaction from the starting point, so technically everything around you is a movie playing it self out through a series of chain reactions, if you can take every variable into the equastion you can predict what can happen next, so in others words you can predict the future, therefore you have no free will

>>744050269
or things are random and we dont have choice

>>744050514

Random with no choice..... explain that.

>>744050514
stronger evidence show that it's not, but you never know

>>744050597
Driven unconsciously by probabilistic phenomena below the level of which we can be aware.

>>744050597
so there is fluctuation in the position of small particles which currently we think is random so these small changes in positions affect our world but those changes are not choice

>>744050255

A different reality wouldn't shed much light on things. Think of it this way. Take the state of the entire universe at time 1 (call it t1). By "state of the universe" I mean all the physical facts about it in conjunction with all the laws of physics. Determinism says that the operation of those facts and laws at t1 determine the subsequent state of the universe at the next instant, t2. If you could rewind things back to t1 and run things again, determinism says it would lead to the same subsequent state at t2. To say otherwise is to say that something else besides the facts and the laws at t1 determines the future. But what would that be? You could run the universe from t1 over and over again and the laws and facts will generate the same subsequent state. It's a plausible theory given what we know about physics (ignoring quantum randomness (maybe)).

Now imagine you're making a choice at t1. The little microphysical processes in your brain are firing a certain way, and they lead to a subsequent brain state that underlies Choice A at t2. Now rewind the clock. Why would those processes, firing the same way in the same circumstances, ever generate something different from Choice A?

>>744051007
Fuck man, that's a perfect example.

>>744051007
So does that mean pedophiles, murders and junkies are off the hook?

>>744051269
basically, but because everything is meaningly jit doesn't matter

>>744051007
good job

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>>744051269

And that's the big problem. Causal determinism seems plausible but it also seems to vitiate accounts of moral responsibility that associate praise/blame with a person's freely chosen actions. So, if we accept that everything is determined, is it wrong to punish crimes? After all, technically speaking, criminals' actions were determined by a certain set of facts billions of years before they were born.

>>744051474
If punishment leads to a net loss in suffering then no it's not wrong. It doesn't matter if they aren't responsible for their actions.

>>744051171
But what about Heisenberg?

>>744044209
From tick #0 of the universe's clock everything was predetermined.

if we had an infinitely powerful computer, every time we simulated the universe the trajectory of the big bang or whatever would be the same.

The initial conditions would affect it's spead, but since the initial condition is nothing the spread is always going to be the same.

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>>744051474

Check this out for an explanation of some of the philosophical literature on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_cases

There are lots of philosophers out there who are "compatibilists" about moral responsibility and determinism. That is, they say that even if it's true that a criminal's actions were determined, and they could not have done otherwise, they still bear moral responsibility. Frankfurt cases, especially the really sophisticated ones in the last 15 years, really do seem to press the conclusion that you can be responsible for things you do even if you could not have done otherwise. But, of course, debate continues.

>>744051570
Starting to soundo a bit eugenic. Minority report n shit.

>>744051582
What about it? There is not enough variation to influence biological factors... I don't think.

>>744051570

But would it be unjust? Maybe unjust actions can generate the best outcomes sometimes, but they still are unjust.

>>744044209
i have thought about this aswell and have came up with this

>>744044209
if you flip a coin its 50/50 unless you know all the variables it turns into 100% so if we can take that same concept but broader of course it would be impossible to calculate if it is possible than everything is predetermined since there is a way to calculate it

>>744051474

If everything is determined, it's a moot point. The crime will be punished or not according to the determined outcome.

No one can do right or wrong because no one is doing it. Crime or punishment.

>>744051736
I think it was hawkings or Harris that said even if you don't have a choice, what you choose still matters, still affects others.

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>>744051901
That's deep af.

>>744051895
even if you don't know these variables like with the coin they still exist so it is "known"

>>744052122
thats my point its impossible to calculate but since you know there are variables that are calculable it is all predetermined

>>744051927

That's true; choices will generate better and worse outcomes, even if they're determined. But it's judgments of *responsibility* for those outcomes which are threatened by determinism.

>>744052040
If everything is determined it's no use to ask yourself wether it's determined. Because you had no Free will, you had no Choice to aks this question or to deal with the consequences.

>>744052292
So with this knowledge, what is my role as a sentient being? Am I even sentient if I have no choice, no free will?

because our choices happen for a reason they have meaning even if they are predetermined.
If quantum fluctuation changes what happens that doesn't mean we have free will

>>744052521
we have no role we are just a phonmenon

>>744052529
You mean, for a reason causally? Or for a greater purpose?

>>744052529
No not free will, but it wouldn't be determined anymore if there is real randomness

>>744052564
Let's eat an apple together bro.

>>744052521
> Am I even sentient if I have no choice, no free will?

You might be sentient in that you're conscious, but consciousness is reduced entirely to an epiphenomenon. I.e., your consciousness isn't really doing any work in the world. You and it are just along for the cosmic clockwork ride.

>>744052606
i mean it things happen based on previous events and that quantum fluctuation makes things happen randomly based on nothing idk aabout a bigger reason

>>744052630
red or green?

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>>744044209
It doesn't matter. Just make choices as though you have free will. If it's predetermined, you'll never know. Unless you're predetermined to know. Then you'll know. Or not. What's the difference, really?

>>744052977
Fuji

>>7440531
true

>>744053181
It matters, because the desire to know exists.

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>>744053386
my type of apple

>>744053455
I watched John Travolta in phenomenon last night. That apple scene got my gears turning.

>>744053440
I'm not saying don't seek the answer. I'm saying accept that not finding the answer may be predetermined. Maybe you're predetermined to search endlessly, that would be fun!

>>744053540
I'll give it a watch, even though I know I had no decision watching it though

>>744053766
He had no choice but to star in it, might as well.

>>744044209
You can't change fate. Sure, we can make choices in life that might alter our path, but sooner or later, we all meet our fate. Life is actually very simple. You're born, You go to school, you work, you grow old if you're lucky enough to do so, then you die. On that short journey we get to make choices that alter our destination, but the outcome is always the same.

>>744053955
The outcome is the same even if we're never born. But that wasn't the question.

>>744053955
so you're saying even if we have choice society conforms us to have a certain life... then we die

>>744044209
I don't remember the name of the theory, but it got published several years ago stating that if you knew the exact location and state of every single atom in the the entire universe (obviously impossible) that you could predict the future with 100% accuracy. I don't really get how that's supposed to work, but someone who is either a complete quack or smarter than everyone in this thread came up with it, so whatever.

Nothing is predetermined and we are too small and insignificant to control our own fate.

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>>744054706
>nothing matress
>everyone wrong
>mfw

I feel like even though this is always an interesting and deep topic to think about, whether or not I have free will is irrelevant. Suppose that every single one of my choices is predetermined and if the universe reset itself I would make the exact same choices again. In this scenario I still have to make the choices and deal with the consequences. Predetermined or not, thy're still my own ichoices and they're unique to me.
It's like walking down a road but your eyes are closed. As far as you know it's just a giant parking lot and you're choosing the path. All I care about is what the walk is like and where I'll be at the end.

>>744055004
this puts my thoughts into words thx

>>744044209
>lrn2determinism and free will

Fukken autists on /b/ trying to be philosophical are great.

>>744055161
at least it's better than the none stop traps and rekt threads god at least it's something different

>>744044209

Predetermination has been debunked by Heisenberg and Stephen Hawking is massively overrated.

There is no such thing as fate or destiny.

FUCKING NIGGERS

YOU AND YOUR FUCKING JEWISH FAGGOTRY LITTLE DEGENERATE SUBHUMANS ARE ACTUAL FUCKING TRASH. EVERYDAY ALL YOU NIGGERS DO ARE LEECH OFF OF WELFARE AND CONTRIBUTE LITERALLY NOTHING POSITIVE TO SOCIETY. THE ONLY THING YOURE GOOD AT IS COMMITTING CRIME, DOING DRUGS LIKE SOME MONKEY NIGGER, AND REPRODUCING YOUR STUPID LITTLE NIGLETS LIKE RATS. YOU ARE ACTUAL FUCKING SUBHUMAN SCUM AND NEED TO FUCKING DIE NOW

>>744055332
whoops. wrong thread. sorry

>>744055291
ok but if how is random quantum fluctuation any better you don't make the choice it is random and all choices are equally made/real

>>744055332
kek

>>744054452
No, a pseudo-intellectual came up with that. The nature of particles is probabilistic, not deterministic, so even if you knew the position of all atoms and had the brain power to sort them out, you'd still have no idea what the future is gonna be like.

>>744054706

Significance and insignificance are the result of concepts only present in humans, which makes us more significant than anything else.

>>744053440
But do you need to know??
It would be nice to know if I had free will, but it's likely that I'll never get that answer, and that's fine with me.

I just go by life assuming that I have free will, because I have been doing what I think I decided to do my entire life.
I am calling the shots: who gives a shit if God or whatever controls my fate is deciding it for me and it's just the "illusion" of me being in control?

>>744055499
The nature of particles is both probabilistic and deterministic depending on weather or not there is an observer.

>>744055450

They're not all made real. The many worlds interpretation is pseudo-scientific, solipsism-category garbage.
As for how our choices work, pretty sure we'll never know, but they're definitely not deterministic. That's not to say nothing is, the movement of asteroids probably is

>>744055499
then there is no reason to chioce if it is random

>>744055617
Well, a greater understanding of free will might make you more free, in some ways. Examining things in your conscious mind is our best attempt at being free.

>>744055697

If you knew the position of all atoms you'd be an observer.

>>744055846
And that would confirm the deterministic hypothesis.

>>744055797

Probabilism isn't random, and I never said human minds work in a certain way, simply that they're not deterministic. It's probably something very complicated as we are the most complex things in existence, and random vs. determined is a false dichotomy.

>>744055897

No it wouldn't. Wouldn't even suggest it in the slightest

>>744055846
Double slit experiment says you're wrong.

>>744056142

No it doesn't, it agrees with literally all I've said. I'm done here anyway

>>744055814
One thing is to examine things in your conscious mind and another one is to try to answer questions that obviously have no answer.