9mm is a weak cartridge. Most people who say it's sufficient

>>741317516
why would I want to be in a gunfight?? wtf

>>741317516
Most people who have been in a firefight probably dont go bumping their gums about it on b.

>>741317791
You wouldn't. The point is that 9mm gives its owners a false sense of security.

It's sufficient for me. I don't plan on fighting anybody

>>741317929
>I don't plan on fighting anybody
Then why would you even own a handgun?

>>741317516
Found the nigger who's never been shot by one.

>>741318006
A lot of people have been shot with 9mm, and most of them have lived.

>>741318148
Gonna have to cite some sources on that claim hoss.

>>741317516

One of the guys in my brother's senior year class killed himself with a fucking .22LR to the head. 9mm is WAY more powerful than that.

Shot placement faggots. Shot placement.

>>741317516
I don't have it on hand but you can look for it on your own.

A doctor compiled data to settle this stupid fucking debate.

According to all the available data where a criminal was shot during a crime, in nearly 100% of the incidents a single round stopped the attacker. This is REGARDLESS of caliber. A single round of .22 caliber rimfire is equally effective at stopping an attacker as a single round of any other caliber.

In the nearly statistically insignificant cases where a second round was actually required to stop the attacker, the only difference that was noted was that the round should be larger than .22 caliber rimfire. However, a third shot of .22 seemed to be roughly capable of doing the job.

Considering that you can carry with you about 10,000 rounds of .22 and you could only carry 1/10th that of some stupidly large ammo (like what you're fucking probably going to propose) you're an idiot.

>>741318148
9 is only a weak cartridge at close range, where it tends to go straight through. From a bit further range the bullet yaws sufficiently and terminal ballistics will fuck your shit up. Just use hollow points if you're worried about stopping power.

>>741318230
Here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

>>741318295
Does 9mm have better shot placement than other cartridges? Can you reliably achieve a headshot every time?

>>741318296
>According to all the available data where a criminal was shot during a crime, in nearly 100% of the incidents a single round stopped the attacker
Bullshit. Criminals get magdumped all the time.

>>741318418
Yawing and hollow points can both cause wider wounds, but they make shallower wounds.

>>741317908
i'd rather have a 9mm than nothing at all.

>>741318572
Don't be half ass.

>>741318295
Technically, the muzzle velocity of a .22lr and an 9mm are roughly equal. a 22lr just moves way faster (depending on the 22).

This is the problem with the stupid fucking debate.

22lr, 9mm, and 45acp are all about the same muzzle velocity in practice. If you're going to get into a fucking fire fight, you probably want a 22. You can carry a lot more ammo and a lot more weaponry. A single gunshot wound will take an enemy out of combat.

>>741318296
Only problem with .22 is that because its a rimfire I would not be as confident that the round WOULD definitely fire as opposed to the center fire 9mm.

Fag.

>>741318609
what do you recommend, chief?

Haha.. take two 9mm in the chest and try to call me in the morning

>>741318660
>A single gunshot wound will take an enemy out of combat.
That's what you think.
>>741318771
Hot 357 mag for revolvers. 10mm for autos if you can handle it.

>>741318557
>Yawing and hollow points can both cause wider wounds, but they make shallower wounds.

So now is the argument that 9mm both over-penetrates AND under-penetrates? Is this Schrodinger's caliber?

>>741318677
Just don't buy the cheap crap you find at walmart. I have yet to stumble upon a Lapua or Eley .22lr that did not pop. Shot over 10000 rounds over the last 5 years alone. Biathlon athlete for a little more than two decades.

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>>741319044
nigga, a bullet is a bullet. they all travel faster than the speed of sound. anything moving that fast can and will kill. a .22 will kill just like a fucking 357

>>741317516
Nothing less then Foster slugs OP.

If your target is still in one piece you've failed.

>>741318557
https://funkertactical.com/gun-shot-wounds-a-dr-s-pov-nsfw/
>an anesthesiologist
Completely, laughingly disregarded. Surgeons will tell you unless they recover the round in the wound mostly intact, the gun or casings is recovered at/near the scene, or a witness tells them the make and model of the firearm, they can only tell the difference between handguns, rifle calibers and shotguns - they cannot tell if it was a .38 special or 9x25, etc.
Your trolling is only chuckle worthy now.

get a .45 caliber. itll be a smaller gun, easier and lighter to carry. almost more power

>>741319079
Who said it overpenetrates?
>>741319204
>they all travel faster than the speed of sound
That's not true. There are many subsonic bullets.
>>741319269
>an anesthesiologist
You realize he works with surgeons, right?

It's like I accidentally clicked on bizzarro /k/ where everyone is even more retarded than usual

Shut up you larping faggot, I shot a fucking .32 at two armed robbers and they both died.

>>741318660
you are forgetting a very important thing, namely that it isnt about muzzle velocity, but about muzzle energy. A bullet that travels as fast as another, but with higher weight has a lot more energy.

>>741317516
Well in the event the you're using a 9mm or a .45 you're within 25 yards. Shot placement beats caliber size any day.

>>741319393
Welcome to /b/.

>>741319383
You realized he ain't qualified for shit except to push sleepy juice.
Hell, why don't you trust an OR nurse? Or how about the janitor who cleans the OR after surgeries. They work with surgeons too.

>>741319383
ok, my point was a bullet is a bullet. they all are designed to kill. .22, 9, 357, 45, etc. you get hit with any of them will put your dick in the dirt

>>741317516
9mm leaves too small a hole. You should get a .38 special or a .357 magnum or maybe a .380 instead.

>>741319335
Smaller? Lighter? Tell that to my .45. It’s larger and heavier than any 9 I’ve held.

>>741317516

ITT: Faggots who've never been in a gun fight pretend to be gun experts.

>Muh 45 ACP

got me a sig p229 .40 cal

am i going to shoot once if someone invades my home? no, theyre getting mag dumped. am i worried about over penetration? a little, a nigger with twice as many holes in em is gonna bleed twice as much into my floors :/

>>741318660
A .22 is about 40 grains @ 1200 ft/s
A 9mm is about 124 grains @ 1150 ft/s
A .45ACP is about 230 grains @ 1000 ft/s

(1 gram is 15 grains)
The .22 is probably measured out of a rifle barrel, so in a pistol it will probably have less velocity.

So the .45 is going to "whop" things. Personally, I'd pick the 9mm because it's easier to handle and cheaper to shoot than a .45ACP. The .22 is good for target shooting and getting your flinching and bad habits out of the way.

>>741319632
Lol. You actually made me laugh.

>>741319632
Same diameter.

>>741319383
>Who said it overpenetrates?

That is an age old argument against the round. Lack of stopping power and overpen are the only two points that anyone ever makes against 9mm

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>ITT
.45s are smaller than MOST other hand guns

>>741319807
Wow you actually go the joke. Don't repeat that on /pol/ or /k/ unless you are ready for maximum triggering.

>>741319590
My dad was hunting with his child hood friend. They were both teens. His friend was carrying the rifle with the barrel facing up while climbing a rock.
.22 rifle went off. Shot him in the neck.
I cannot remmeber. But I belive he died from it.
My dad reminded me of this story every fuckimg time we shot toghter.
Let me tell you. Im religeous about muzzle sweeping. I keep my barrel always facing down range or towards the dirt.
And to be perfectly honest. A lunch ladys kid was shot in the back with a CO2 pellet gun. It put him in the hospital. So just about any projectile can ruin your day. If your not safe

>>741319470
A running man has more energy than a 357 mag.
>>741319503
See >>741318557
>>741319393
>>741319521
/k/ doesn't know any more about guns than /b/. Most /k/ommandos are just contrarians. They will argue anything.
>>741319570
If a janitor gives me a convincing argument based on facts, then I will believe him.
>>741319590
Not always.
>>741319632
Are you joking? You realize they all have about the same size bullet. The difference is in speed.
>>741319874
>overpen
I doubt it. 9mm doesn't have much sectional density.

>>741319799
.22lr when tested using the army standards for lethal calibers passes the test out to over 400 yards.
Just saying.

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>>741319888

>>741317973
Wannabe gunslinger detected

If you're planning on a fight you don't need to own a gun.

>>741319910
>brb, trolling /k/ now

>>741320000
>are you joking
No. I'm dead serious
/b/ is serious business
Are you saying I came here to shitpost son?
If I want to shitpost I'll go on /lit/ or /po/
But this is /b/. I'm here for some serious dick rating.

>>741320011
What are the army standards?
>>741320034
I thought that was the whole point of owning a handgun?

>>741317516
OP has obviously never been shot by one - care to try.......

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>>741320000
fuck your quads.
also checked

>>741320018
I got a good laugh man. Thanks

>>741319992
yes and yes

>.45 +p hollow points

That's my preference to carry

9mm has a bigger clip so it's better.

>>741320156
59 ft/lb pressure at surface contact, testing was done with 1/2" solid pine board. Anything that could cleanly pierce it was considered potentially lethal.

All I'm saying is that statistics show that around 80-85% of people who are shot by a 9mm round survive. Although, that does include them getting medical attention and it does not take into consideration where in the body they have been shot or at what distance, although there have been many cases of people surviving a 9mm to their head and somewhat close distances

Guess all the government agencies and PD's all over the country that are choosing 9mm as their official caliber because there is no discernable difference in stopping power at typical handgun shootout range between 9mm and higher calibers don't know what they're doing.

>>741320403
>clip

>>741317908
settle down fuccboy, I know you wouldn't understand this but 9mm has good penetration, the thing that actually matters because if your hollow point garbage can't penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs it's shit-tier.

9mm fmj > .45 HP

>>741320403
You don't need a bigger clip if you hit your target?

>>741320450
They only choose 9mm bc they can carry more rounds. Thats literally the only reason

>>741320498
>You don't need a bigger clip if you hit your target?

A bigger what? A clip is something you might use to reload a rifle magazine, called a stripper clip, but I don't think that's what you mean.

What exactly is 9mm? The circumference?

>>741318557
I shoot a 9mm s&w MP shield and I can group 15 shots in about 3 inches diameter at 30 feet. I'd say reliable accuracy.

>>741320403
Its a magazine, just a heads up

>>741320602
>called a stripper clip
Wrong. There's several types of clip. Not all clips are stripper clips.

>>741320641
Looks more like a [trigger] to me.

>>741320430
-80-85% of people live within a reasonable distance to a hospital.
-pluging a hole to prevent bleeding out.
-basic emt is capabil

>>741320629
Diameter.

>>741320403
>clip
It's not a clip. It's a magazine.
>>741320417
I'll remember that next time an army of half inch pine boards rises from the forest to take over the world.
>>741320450
You guessed right. Police departments have their weapons chosen by bureaucrats who neither know nor care anything about fighting. They just want to save money so they can embezzle more of the budget.
>>741320491
Do you know what sectional density is?
>>741320629
The approximate diameter of the bullet. It's actually slightly bigger than that, but very close.
>>741320631
Slow fire is not like a gunfight.

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.22 LR

Small dick guns can't compete.

>>741317896
>Most people who have been in a gunfight don't call it a "firefight"
FTFY

Im so fucking sick of statistics.
Handguns are terrible for killing, but succesful in maiming.
Want to kill someone? Use a rifle.

>>741320861
>more clipazine triggering
Full blown /k/ raid in progress confirmed.

>>741319992
I was taught that it's better to face the sky instead of the dirt to avoid ricochet.

>>741321044
No. You dont want to shoot someone in the face. Its always muzzle facing down. Always.
Better to lose a foot then your face.
And im not joking.

>>741320403
Its a magazine, just a heads up

>>741320992
The reason many people use a handgun is for concealed carry, or for convenience. It's much easier to carry and shoot a handgun at someone in a crazy situation then it is to shoot someone with a rifle.

>>741321044
If you're going to be climbing over an awkward obstacle and you aren't being chased by charlie thus requiring you to be able to return fire at a moments notice, it's better to just clear your fucking gun before crossing said obstacle.
Like honestly
You are given a choice between
>Potentially kill yourself or somebody else
>waste 2 seconds of time.
Hmm. Tough choice.

>>741320861
:Yawn:

>>741321138
I know it's a fucking magazine. I just like triggering gunfags. And that one works the best.

>>741321044
It depends. If you're in a rubber boat, point at the sky. If you're in an apartment with somebody above you, point down.

>>741317516
Military and police all use it. Big powerful bullets are useless if you fail to hit or fire accurate followup shots. Plus the maintenance is lower. You just need to practice more until your firing is automatic.

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Fuck all of y'alls weak shit.

12 gauge slug to tha rescue!!

BAM, bitches!!

>>741321208
Stop breathing. Your wasting precious oxygen

>>741320861
I know, I do a set of jumping jacks, drop to do push ups, and try to fire while steadying my breathing. I get funny looks at the range, but I usually see 2 or 3 end up doing it too after they ask why I do it. I'll never draw my gun in a non stressful situation, so I like to prepare for unsteady breathing, and nervousness.

I still group around 3 inches at 30 feet. I will stand by myself and say I can reliably shoot a man in the head every shot if I need to.

Not to say I don't like a .45, but my 9mm has great shot grouping, reliably built, and I like the capacity I get out of a small weapon. A .45 at this size gets 5 or 6 shots per mag, I get one 7+1 and an 8 round as backup in my 9mm.

At least some people have common sense

Your caliber is less important than your skill with the weapon. Also in a gunfight a 9mm gives you some distinct advantages over other rounds, like higher mag capacity. At the end of the day though you can, as some have pointed out, kill someone with any caliber, hell you can kill someone with a nailgun or high power potato gun.

Personally in handguns I would rather use the FN 5.7mm, best weapon in its class, basic mag capacity of 20 rds, solid range, great accuracy and better penetration than standard handgun rounds.

>>741317516
Most people who say it isn't enough haven't been in a gunfight either.

>>741321311
>higher mag capacity
You mean a longer clip?

>>741319799
I prefer the 45 myself. Found the point and trigger on a 1911 to be superior to the 9's I have but technically could re-chamber it.

>>741321272
>doctor. "Yes ,nurse".
>nurse. "We have a gunshot victim".
>doctor. "Jesus christ hes fucked"

this isn't /k/ niggers

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>not conceal carrying a 20mm LAHTI like a proper Chad.

>>741321344
No, he means higher magazine capacity. You can just fit more 9mm round in a specific sized mag then you can fit 45.ACP In the same clip

>>741321457
Im just going to carry aroumd a LAW, rocket launcher on my back.
>fuck, this white bois crazy

>>741320498
>clip

>>741320491
>implying a .45 hp wouldnt just expend enough energy before hitting your heart to kill you anyways, or do massive internal damage no matter where it hits. i agree that a 9mm can penetrate more but tahts a good thing for the victim if its a gut shot it will go through and through without fragmenting and they will survive if a .45 hp disintegrates in your gut cavity your likley fucked.

>>741317516
>Most people who say it's sufficient are people who've never been in a gunfight.
And most people who make blanket, blow-hard statements like this have never been in a "gunfight" either, and usually keep their arms crossed across their upper chest in that know-it-all-fanboy way whenever discussing any related subject, with anyone, in person.

>>741321457
fuck that pussy ass shit
I CCW a 105mm howitzer
anything smaller is just going to get you killed

>>741321643
I've mentioned like 5 times that I'm deliberately doing it to trigger you fags and you keep taking the fucking bait.

>>741321242
>Military and police all use it
Only because it's issued to them by bureaucrats. >>741321242
>Big powerful bullets are useless if you fail to hit or fire accurate followup shots.
9mm isn't more accurate than any other cartridge.
>>741321274
At least I can use the right you're/your.
>>741321286
May I ask what gun you use?
>>741321311
>better penetration than standard handgun rounds.
Are you sure about that?
>>741321333
True. Our knowledge about guns is like looking through a glass darkly.

>>741319204
Actually you can buy sub-sonic ammunition.

>>741321130
Usually when you're carrying a longarm facing upwards the muzzle will be higher than the tallest person's head, meaning it can only ever shoot above people.

>>741321344

No. Youre thinking aftermarket. A 9mm round is smaller than a .45 round, so more rounds fit in the same size magazine.

>>741321751
This. Quite a lot of the older T H I C C pistol cartridges are subsonic.

>>741321623
>not conceal carrying an m777
What if you needed to provide long distance mortar support?

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Op is a pussy. Real men use flinlock pistols.

I don't leave home without my 45mm

>>741321751
What's the point unless you're doing some crazy shit in the military? I don't think anyone like us are gonna buy a Sub-sonic bullet because we want to

>>741317516
Agreed. Still don't want to be shot with one. It would most likely be uncomfortable.

>>741321623
Would love to carry one of those multiple round grenade launchers. No one would dare fuck with you.

>>741321825
AYO WHITE BOIS DETECTED. NIGGAS PANTS HANG LOW BECAUSE THEY STUFF A GAU-8 DOWN THERE.

155mm is a powerful but cumbersome round. Most people who say it's sufficient have never heard "All remaining rounds" with 80 left.

>>741321716
Certain. It fires assault rifle style rounds, meaning they go into the target deeper than standard pistolet rounds.

>>741321855
It actually might not be bad as a home defence round due to low wall penetration.

>>741317516
two shots of 9 is better than any 45 round

>>741321855
That refers to rounds less than the speed of sound. Not higher than speed of sound. My 12gauge fires shells faster than that.

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>>741317516
>Op is a pussy. Real men use flinlock pistols.
I personally prefer a blunderbuss myself.

>>741321855
Naw you can buy them at bass pro in fact. They are MUCH quieter, that's the advantage. Disadvantage is that won't feed reliably in a autoloader. But, when you want a quiet shit, you use a bolt action anyways.

>>741321286
That's why I went to a .40. I was shooting my 9mm and my dad was shooting his .45 at about 40 ft. I hit every 3rd shot with the 9 and he hit every shot with the .45. I know that in a real situation, it'd be much closer, but it concerned me they were flinging that much. Next time with my .40, every shot hit, plus I get 13 rounds instead of the 7 of the .45.

>>741322007
Fair enough, I stand corrected

Now this might be the /k/ in me talking, but come a war a pistol is going to be useless unless they're right up in your face. Therefore I would prefer to use my favorite rifle in defense of our great nation. The m1903 Springfield chambered in 30-06. I'm scary accurate with a gun that's over 100 years old. The one I shot was made in 1916. Hit the target from 500 yards or so with iron sights. God bless American weaponry

>>741322084
Shot that is.

>>741321716
>9mm isn't more accurate than any other cartridge.
no, but a smaller gun is easier to handle and thus, easier to aim.

All cartridge wank is just that, WANK. It doesn't matter what kind of gun you use. If you take a 9mm to the gut, you're going down. If you take a 9mm to the chest, you're going down. If one hits your femur and shatters it, you're going down.

the fucking .22 kill more people than any other caliber, mostly because of accidents and suicides.

>>741320011
You'd just have to aim 22 ft. above your target.

tinyurl y7lsz2g3

>>741322007

Someone has the musket home invader defense greentext, I know it. Please post it.

>>741321855
You're supposed to pair subsonics with suppressors to get the full effect of the suppressor. Otherwise the sonic boom will partially nullify the suppressor's effectiveness.

>>741322156
I believe if a war were to start In today's age, your Springfield wouldn't be of as much use either, as today's rifles are more ready for war with magazines that can hold 20 + rounds easily and are made for longer range with better accuracy

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>>741322073
Don't be a fucking pussy, real men enjoy the crunch of man's skull under one of these bad boys.

>>741322141
Easier on the hearing in confined spaces as well.

>>741317516
Using hollowpoints makes a world of difference

>>741322156
why would you not use a .308 with a modern scope though. or a 7mm.08 or an even bigger one like a 7mm rem mag or 300 mag. the rounds are going to be easier to come by in an apocalyptic society and a X15 power scope is going to increase your accuracy alot. being a my gun is old edgelord doesn't make it a good gun.

>>741322222
Quints of TRUTH

>>741322092
I can't argue if you have good results. I say good for you that you found something with good grouping. I usually say it goes on a per case level, like my 9mm with 147gr hollow points groups well for me out of my pistol. I'm sure you with a .40 groups well too. I just got used to mine is all, I couldn't change it up for the world. I do well with .45, .40, and .22 but the 9mm is a sweet spot for me.

I like .22 in plinksters though, always fun to waste 25 bucks on a few hours worth of bullets.

>>741321908
The five seven was designed to be was specifically designed to be the sidearm used with/share the ammunition of the p90, which was specifically designed to be the first PDW that used armor-piercing ammunition, competing for the title with the MP7

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>>741322332
Might as well use a mambele

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>>741322332
Warhammer is a better choice if you train with it. Piercing and hammering plus lays flat for carrying in combat.

>>741321908
What does? Also, are you Russian? I noticed you used the word pistolet.
>>741322084
>Disadvantage is that won't feed reliably in a autoloader
Not true.
>>741322084
>But, when you want a quiet shit, you use a bolt action anyways
Not true. The action has little effect on the noise.
>>741322222
>If you take a 9mm to the gut, you're going down
That's what you think.
>>741322323
Not true. A 1903 Springfield is a very powerful, accurate, and long range weapon. It doesn't hold as many rounds, but it is fast to reload.

>>741322323
In an urban environment it would be useful, and 30-06 is literally everywhere in the USA. Its not like I'd run out of Ammo. And the one I use is accurate as hell up to 1000 yards. It was used by my great uncle in ww1 so it's got some kills on it

>>741322238
Not looking it up, but probably more like 7-8 feet.

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Everytime go to my local range i go for conceal carry practice. Draw from the hip, 3 in the chest, in most cases thats enough to stop your threat

>>741322323
Not necessarily... old school rifles, specifically bolt actions, are still the best at distance shooting. In an urban engagement yes, a modern rifle would have an advantage but in terms of distance an AR-15 for example wouldnt be as good as the springfield. This is part of the reason we are seeing a resurgence of the M14 in military issue.

>>741322550
but I'm not a nigger

>>741318677
>I would not be as confident that the round WOULD definitely fire

.22 rarely does not go bang. You're probably more likely to run across a center fire that won't go bang.

>>741322573
Well that's what the warnings say. You could modify an autoloader pretty easily for it though.

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This shit belongs on /k/

>>741317516
So weak the military uses it as a sidearm!

>>741322752
If you don't like this thread then get out cuck

>>741322428
As I previously stated, 30-06 is still a super popular round for hunting and is widely available. 7mm is shut and ammo is harder to get than 30-06 and I don't have access to a fucking intervention so .308 is not going to do me good. I could get a nice scope for the Springfield and sight it in easy. Maybe 10-15 rounds to sight it in as accurate as possible at most

>>741319799
>A .45ACP is about 230 grains @ 1000 ft/s

230 grain will not go 1000ft/s (unless you have a foot long barrel)

much closer to 850 ft per second

>>741322752
No it doesn't, this is baitposting. /k/ is sick and tired of this stupid argument, which is probably why OP is here, because he got banned off /k/ for spamming the same damn thead every day.

>>741322694
I've had more 7.62 fail on me than .22 rimfires. That would be 1 7.62.

>>741322222
Noice quints mate...however, remember that when in battle, the plan is not to kill...but injure...dead soldiers don't need anyone...injured soldiers can consume another 12 soldiers to deal with injury, get him out of theatre...

I have 17 guns, and my two favorite carry pistols are a S&W 9mm, and a R2 1911. Is rather have 17 rounds of 9mm than 8 .45. In a real fight, you're likely to miss several shots. If some criminal favor tries to mug you, magdump him with almost 20 rounds and tell me it's a weak cartridge. The only thing 9mm can't do as well as higher calibers is break windshields, which I don't need.

.380 pocket pistols are all the rage right now.
At the distances that you would be in a "gunfight", it doesnt really matter. Just carry a quality hollow point and you can down them

>>741322522

Yes, they are a combo lol and the rounds are a shorter version of the 5.56 nato rifle rounds. Similar to those fired by the AR-15, M4, M16, M249 etc.

>>741322836
.308 shoots flatter with better groups which is why you seldom if ever see .30-06 in competition anymore.

Lucky Gunner did a bunch of testing on this. It is a good resource:http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

>>741322836
well here in newzealand which ill admit is different to america every man and his dog owns a .308 or 7mm.08 and a 12 guage.

>>741322694
I've fired over 1k .22 lr this year so far. Have had 2 bad rounds with damaged cases right out of the box so far this year, and a few bent nose carriages.

It is a small cheap cartridge, these things happen. Federal ammo. For the 2 bad rounds.

>>741322573
The FN 5.7 handgun, no Im not russian lol. Pistolet in this case refers to the class of ammunition, commonly fired by handguns and smgs.

>>741322930
I've never had one of my 22s have a primer failure.


I've seen it happen in 380, 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, 45 ACP, 5.56x45

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>>741322880
OP here, let me spam post some bait because I'm a faggot who gets off to gun arguments

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>>741321751
no.. its all about speed

>9.mm Hydra shock ammo'
>will tear your good damn arm like nothing

>>741321892
that is a gay prison thing means your open to be fucked up the ass

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>>741321825
>>741321877
"That nigga right over there says he wants yo' wallet."
"That guy right there"
"Yeah, dats shorty. He gonna F you up"
"Ok, hold on. I got this"

>>741318148
Maybe shoot them more than once, or get a 45

>>741323156
Jesus you're not trying to kill, you're just trying to fuck people up

>>741322864
Tommy gun.... :-)

>>741322934
That only works against a civilized opponent. You leave an isis fanatic alive and they keep fighting

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>>741317516
real man have the proper equipment
in hands of experienced fighter BBC is best for self defence and even sufficient as assault weapon.

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>>741323156
>Hydra shock

>old technology
>inconsistent expansion and clogging problems the second it hits denim

Keep being impressed by bare gel tests though, I guess you plan on shooting naked guys

>>741317516
weak eh? stand there and take a round 9mm in the head or chest and say that

>>741323241
"Can I get coordinates?"
"Yeah, the nigga in them fake ass Jordan's"
"Target sighted, loading HE shell"
"BREAK YO SELF NIGGA"

>>741323326
You ever seen a tommy, m8? They're actually fairly long for a sub machine gun.

>>741323326
>You leave an isis fanatic alive and they keep fighting
They're not superhuman you idiot.

>>741317516
>>>741317516
>weak eh? stand there and take a round 9mm in the head or chest and say that
Many cases of people living with head and chest injuries. Research it

Best to kill, not wound. Live asshole is going to scream dindu nuttin, and then sue your ass.

>>741323401
Just curious if anyone still wears denim jackets. I still own one I wear occasionally on a cool day.

>>741323422
Lol

>>741318148
You don't need to kill the dude to win a gunfight. It's probably better if he doesn't die, as long as he cant shoot back and you aren't hit you did your job. Let the police do theirs.

>>741323481
Well they aren't exactly human either

>>741322774
The military is the epitome of a bureaucracy, and it's those bureaucrats who chose it. Also. soldiers very rarely even use sidearms.
>>741322864
Depends on the pressure. +P loads can achieve 1000 fps.
>>741322934
Only sometimes true.
>>741322976
>In a real fight, you're likely to miss several shots
Not if you know how to use sight alignment and trigger control.
>>741322999
30-06 is faster and therefore flatter than 308, most of the time.
>>741323083
>Pistolet
That's not English. Pistolet is the Russian word for pistol.
>>741323108
Doesn't change the fact that you can, in fact, buy subsonic ammo. Many pistol rounds are subsonic.
>>741323391
I searched for micropenis on Pornhub. The vast majority of results were Pakistani men. Make of that what you will.
>>741323488
This.
>>741323534
I prefer oilskin for rainy weather and goose or duck down for really cold, snowy weather.

9mm has enough power but it is small and fast instead of big and slow like a 45.
If you use a 9mm for defense you need hollow points or most of the energy won't transfer.

>>741317516
lemme break it down for you, darlin

your accuracy goes to shit in a gunfight, anyone who's getting bulleye's on twitch reflex and muscle memory is an accomplished world championship shootist and they're doing it before they consciously recognize the threat

joe schmoe, that's you and me, sugarpuff, aren't getting bullseyes on Tyrone's valuable-as-gold CNS with the first seven shots, you might get it on eight, maybe seventeen, who the fuck knows

what I do know is you aren't gonna be reloading like a world championship shootist when you're fucked up on adrenaline and the man you just put eight .72" holes in is still coming at you

9mil wins on practicality, not lethality, but the lethality is pretty damn even keel these days

A 9mm will penetrate far enough to kill most people, unless you have a 350 lb man attacking you, a 9mm will be fine. Even then, they're an easy target.

>>741323488
My father took a 9mm to his bullet proof vest to test it with him wearing the vest. He said the shock hurt but it barely made a dent in the steel (it was around 2 inches thick or so) 9mm are great starter guns and are fun to shoot, but if you want protection get something such as a .45

>>741323640
>your accuracy goes to shit in a gunfight
Only if you panic.

>>741323474
Have shot the semi auto version. Much heavier than you would expect, so very little recoil. They shoot beautifully.

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>>741317516
>9mm is a weak cartridge

Why don't you stand down range and let me throw a couple your way.

Besides, if you're going to a firefight, you bring a fucking rifle. You bring your friends with their rifles. 9mm is fine for a DEFENSIVE round. The FBI is going back to it and law enforcement around the world uses it.

>>741323673
>because niggers wear bulletproof vests

>>741323576
Yes they are, human have acted like Isis for hundreds of thousands of years, those faggots aren't doing anything new or even that remarkably evil. They just had decent productions values for their shock videos.

>>741323761
>Only if you panic.

Fight or flight mode is one hell of a drug

>>741323598
You know, you really dont have to reply to every post. Take some advice. You dont have to win every argument.

>>741323673
Exactly. A 9mm is on the point where it's easily argued whether it should be good enough or not, but a 45 is completely fine most of the time

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>>741317516
Its weak but it gets the job done

>>741323764
>little recoil
That's because you had a semi auto one faggot. Get a ww2 era and flip that shit on full auto. Tell me how great the recoil is when you're shooting 3 ft above your target

>>741323916
>but a 45 is completely fine most of the time

Until you start talking about recurring shot placement and carry capacity

>>741323847
You clearly havent seen enough isis videos.
Itz beyond cruel

>>741323598
Yes in english the ammo class is commonly referred to as pistolet because saying pistol ammo isnt fancy enough for expert assholes.

Pistolet- small cartridges for handguns and smgs.
Intermediate- medium cartridges for carbines and assault rifles.
Rifle- full size rifle cartridges.

All ammunition falls into one of the three.

>>741323941
I wonder what a modern muzzle brake would do. It works good for AKs.

>>741323481
No but shoot them in the leg or shoulder, and they may not go back for a few months R&R to recover. More likely buddy bandages it and they go for the fight to the death.

9x19 < 357 < 5.7x28

>>741323981
I was just talking to account a single or few bullets, for most cases

>>741324130
>my gun knowledge comes from video games

>>741323981
Shot placement is going to be accurate enough at close distance like in a home defense situation. They're great guns to keep the coons off your porch.

>>741324130
Honestly it shows in the 357 part of the comment lol. That is a useless round :/ if youre gonna go that big you may as well jump up to .44 magnum or .50.

>>741323941
Umm to dickhead, the gun weighs over 10 fucking pounds, that's heavy for a sub machine gun. If you shoot a light weight sub machine gun, it will kick MUCH HARDER.

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>>741317516
go to /k/, /b/ is happy you dont have a problem lying about being in a gunfight, too

Look up stats on first shot stops and kys.

>>741324218
I based it off of this. I don't know about ammo but you seem to be failing to address the 5.7 ammo type, it seems pretty good
>>741321311

>>741324299
Truth. If you're more than 20 feet away your life isn't in real danger you should be running to cover rather than lining up shots.

You need a handgun to defend yourself when the enemy jumps out and is too close to evade.

>>741324409
My grandfather tested one out in MOS camp. Said in full auto the fucker goes upwards and you have to pull it down to keep your shots together. He ended up caring an m1 carbine and a garand throughout his tour in Europe

>>741324409
Full auto fire on light weapons is basically a waste of ammo, you have that part right.

3 round burst or semi auto is optimal on modern weapons unless is a M249, M240b or M60. Then bipod and suppressing fire is the way to go, with most smgs or assault rifles though its no good. A few exceptions exist though, like a suppressed SigSaur 9mm mpx with sub-sonic rounds, almost no recoil.

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Didn't read thread.

The sidearm in the military is your emergency backup to get you from position A to weapon B. It is NOT meant to be used as your primary weapon. It's meant to allow you to suppress the enemy long enough for you to get to a "real" weapon. The 9mm cartridge is small enough for a large magazine i.e. lot of shots to make the enemy take cover for a longer time and get you to that more appropriate weapon, while still retaining just barely enough stopping power.

The 45 is for personal defense. It has nothing to do with getting you from point A to weapon B. In the civilian world there is no weapon B.
It's meant to blow a big ass hole in someone. This is why most police and civilian self-defense weapons use it.

If you're arguing that the 9mm isn't enough for the military, you're a know-nothing faggot. If you're arguing that the 9mm isn't enough for personal defense or police work, you probably have a valid point, though the details are debatable.

Now fuck you all.

>>741324475
>but you seem to be failing to address the 5.7 ammo type, it seems pretty good

There is a reason everyone ignores it
It performs very poorly per the FBI standards. Its a meme round which is why it never took off. Its pretty much a slightly hotter 22 magnum

>>741317908
>a false sense of security.

Owning a gun gives people a false sense of security. Considering the weapon most like to be used against them is the one they own.

>>741324024
You clearly don't know shit about history. That level of cruelty is historical baby food.
I mean what have they done that's so cruel?
>Cut peoples heads off
>thrown people from buildings
>lit guys on fire
>crushed dudes head with a rock
>blown guys heads off with explosives and high caliber weapons

That is fucking NOTHING. The Romans nailed people to planks of wood and left them for birds to eat. The Greeks would put people inside a brass bull light a fire under it and let them slowly cook. Europe in the middle ages was fucking crazy sadistic. Breaking on the Rack, Sawing people in half starting from the crotch.

Fuck there was even one fucked up thing some fuckers would do, they'd stick you in a fucking coffin with your legs and arms trapped and exposed, force feed you honey and other shit until you got crazy diarrhea, set you adrift in a fucking swamp, AND LET THE FLIES SLOWLY EAT YOU OVER A FUCKING WEEK.

ISIS are a bunch of fucking amateurs.

>>741324475
Thats because I agree with the 5.7 round lol. About the best sidearm on the market but very expensive.

>>741322864
You're right. I was looking at P+

>>741324609
False. If youre 20ft or less and your gun isnt drawn you should be running, a dude with a knife will kill you at that distance before you can even pull and sight your gun.

>>741324409
weight is less of a factor in the gun pulling up than torque, which is determined by the difference between the barrel and bolt and where the gun is braced
tommys have almost an inch between the bolt and stock
that gives it a fuck ton of torque pulling the muzzle up

If you have a few thousand bucks worth of gun but a car with a safety rating less then 3 your a fucking idiot. theres nothing wrong with gun ownership, but if your justification is muh family or muh safety your fucking stupid

>i want it
is a vastly fucking better argument

>>741322575
I did look it up. That's the link.

>>741324820
>About the best sidearm on the market but very expensive.

>measly 40g round that overpenetrates in the body but underpenetrates when it comes to windshields
>best sidearm

>>741324759
False. Its too expensive for the FBI but is issued for secret service agents. Its more of a slightly lighter M4 round and has better range, accuracy and stopping power than most available handguns because of this. It fires assault rifle style rounds as opposed to the pistol style rounds of the .22.

>>741324780
Well they are sand niggers after all...

>>741325103
>i dont provide a source, but ill ignore YOUR sourceless claim
>mfw all the spec ops dudes who hate the 5.7 because it does fucking nothing

>>741320417
>59 ft/lb
well that just doesn't make sense

>>741319204

Usually if you shoot someone they either die or run away.

>>741325029
It comes in different grain loads like all rounds do. The secret service standard rounds cand go through your average bullet proof vest as they are AP. Also as for personal rounds you should always load your own.

>>741325144
are you really going to make the claim that they're inferior genetic specimens because they aren't as creative with torture?

>>741325103
The "FBI Standard" is what the secret service uses too you retard.
Also the Secret Service has gone back and forth from 40sw to 357 sig, NEVER used 5.7
And before you say it has anything to do with money, look at the price of .357 sig

also
> assault rifle style rounds as opposed to the pistol style rounds of the .22.

You know nothing, stop pretending that you do

>>741317516
>9mm is a weak cartridge
No guns detected
>been in a gunfight.
>gunfight.
12 year old reject from the O.K. Corral detected

>>741325103
holy shit you sound like a literal retard.

Weird, ive been in gun fights in Iraq and I carry 9mm.

Stop being a fucking idiot, the 3 major semi auto pistol cartriges all do sufficient damage as long as you carry good ammo.

>>741324769
20,000 suicides vs 50,000 to several million of crimes prevented via the use of guns, in the US. You're full of shit.

>>741320403
Nice bait

>>741325622
>even 3% of crimes resulting in a death
>its a good thing about 12 bucks were saved per person dying
lol

>>741317516
>9mm is a weak cartridge. Most people who say it's sufficient are people who've never been in a gunfight.
Most ppl that makes threads like this are overcompensating for being a tiny dick neckbeard virgin

>>741320430
>Wonder if it's because 9mm is a common service caliber and in most cases paramedics are already in the scene.

>>741325186
Well lets put it this way... .45 ACP from a colt 1911 runs at a muzzle velocity around 825 fps. This is the round people are praising for its power.

The 5.7mm at its worst is at 1700 fps, at its best is 2500 fps.

The small bullets allow for better penetration of armor, proven fact which is why they use the same design for the 5.56x45 M4 round. It has better speed, better penetration and the weapon is light weight and low recoil, praised by those using it for its good accuracy even at range.

>>741325186

>>741325860
>these numbers ive come up are more important then the people who actually use this shit to shoot people with
lol

>>741325726
That sounds like some future victim talk to me. Maybe your mugger won't kill you or maybe your rapist will make it gentle.

The FBI thought so too, which is why they switched to 40 s&w. But then they realized they were wrong and switched back to 9mm.

>>741325622

You have to add retards like yourself getting mad and killing or being killed by a family member.

>>741325424
Youre kinda hilariously retarded... what round does the P90 use? The 5.7mm. Who uses the P90? The secret service. but but but you said they hate the 5.7mm.

By all means look it up and prove me wrong rather than blab out of your ass.

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>>741325991
>if theres even the slighest chance of death, murder them
and yet you dont shoot at passing cars, vastly more likely to kill you

im pro gun, but im also pro not being fucking stupid about your decisions. if i REALLY think i need a gun to be where i am, i dont go there. if you need a minigun to be safe where you are, life insurance should be fucking first.

>>741322550
>Autistic weapon modification has always been a part of human culture

>>741325860
>what is overpenetration
>what are wound channels

Oh thats right, misconceptions on your part in understanding what exactly you should be looking for in a carry handgun.

Unless your assailant is wearing body armor, you as an individual have a better chance of putting another human down with a 9mm hollow point than a 5.7.
An average of 4 shots is fired during a firefight, youll be lucky to hit with 1 or 2.

A large gaping hole is much better off than 1 small hole where you blew right out the back of him.

>>741326224
>p90
>sidearm

Real impressive
Go on, keep telling us to compare sub machine guns to handgun rounds you fucking retard.
If it were up to snuff, they would carry the 5.7 as their sidearm to save money.

But they dont, havent, and never ever will.
Also they are currently phasing the 5.7 out for 5.56 again

>>741326065
lol I'm the retard. At least I know what I'm talking about. Gun crime within family is a small segment of gun violence. These are crimes of passion, if a gun wasn't present a knife or a hammer would easily fill in.

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>>741317908
A handgun is a false sense of security.
They are useful for offensive purposes only.

They are for niggers and James Bond, and nigger, you ain't James Bond.

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A .357 hollow point is ultimate nigger killing round. Get a nice big fucking revolver bigger than a nigger cock, no cartridge dropped in the incidence scene. Hollow point opens up to shreds the nigger into nigger meat. Wins all around.

>>741325955
United States Secret Service agents and officers are trained on standard shoulder weapons including the FN P90 submachine gun

http://www.shootingrangeindustries.com/united-states-secret-service-handguns-submachine-guns-assault-rifles-weapons-equipment-list/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7×28mm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

I normally wouldnt cite wikipedia but this so basic even those ass clowns cant fuck it up. The absolute best muzzle velocity on a highly specialized .45 round is still only 1150 fps. The standard is right about 825-830 fps. The lowest for the 5.7mm is at 1700 fps, the highest is 2500 fps.

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>>741321826

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>>741317516
Most people who say it's sufficient are people who've never been in a gunfight.
>who've never been n a gunfight.
>tfw you'll never be in a gunfight

>>741326443
That depends on what you want to shoot and how good of a shot you are. One round is all it takes but honestly no handgun is going to help a lot if your attacker is armed and less than 20 feet from you. Thats proven fact. You wont draw your weapon before they kill you, even when tested 9 out of 10 cops die when their assailant is armed with only a knife and rushing them at close range.

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>>741317516

>>741326751
>people who never shoot their guns
>vs people who do

>>741327196

Lol, ok little kid, you kno everything. Fucking teenagers

Real good comeback with stats and info, cuz ya kno cops never shoot their guns, I wasnt taught to shoot by an ex-spec ops Corpman with an AK, was all a dream lulz glad you told me my entire military family was wrong with your vast "I shoot guns knowledge." Gtfo :|

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reality here is most of you fags never killed anyone in combat. A 9 mil has more capacity and when used in close quarters with well placed shots by a trained operator a 45 is just the same. I carry 45 because if i wing someone i want half their impact area to bounce off walls while i shoot more straight. Fuckin COD faggots

>>741327667
>so out of arguments hes gotta point out hes older and dumber
lol
> I wasnt taught to shoot by an ex-spec ops Corpman with an AK, was all a dream lulz glad you told me my entire military family was wrong with your vast "I shoot guns knowledge." Gtfo :|
i believe your claim. you werent.

>>741319799
In terms of stopping power
.22lr is about 0.5 Nm
9mm is about 1.5 Nm
.45ACP is about 2.3 Nm

I go for 9mm for the price and good stopping power.
I keep 22lr for bird hunting.
I keep 12 gauge slug next to the front door for real stopping power.

435 grain at 1800 ft/s = 8 Nm

You'll have one hell of a time getting a 22lr into someone's skull at a non-point-blank range. Hell. People committing suicide with 22lr deserve a hero's funeral upon successful completion. That shit would just rattle around in your head following the curve of the bone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030646/Man-survives-bullet-brain-30-YEARS-wife-shot-gun-bought-gift.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1306103/Shot-man-finds-bullet-head-years-on.html

>>741327196

Lol you literally didnt make an argument. You just said I shoot guns therefor Im right when in all actuality your entire idealogy is based on the fallacy that you will be able to draw a concealed handgun and use it on an attacker at close range. I backed up what I said with fact, the 5.7 round is faster and gets better penetration, if you take a hit center mass its over for you from any caliber, your over penetration argument is useless, in terms of raw performance the 5.7 out performs the .45 and the 9mm. You have no argument against this which is why you resorted to "I know more cuz I shoot guns" in the first place. My dad taught me to shoot, he was actually a Naval Corpsman attached to Marine Force Recon, I could care less if you believe it or not. At the end of the day no matter your weapon it will come down to skill and nerve, outside of that its mostly preference but as stated above in terms of performance the .45 doesnt really stack up. Whine and cry all you want, you cant refute that no matter how hard you try.

>>741319044
Plan killing horses??
A rhinoceros??

My Browning Hi-power 9mm will put you in the fucking ground.

You're no expert.
You're a fetishist.

>>741326535
>At least I know what I'm talking about.
>Gun crime within family is a small segment of gun violence.

Say he knows what he's talking about. Immediately contradicts his fool self.

>>741326582

This guy is nothing but a white trash nigger.

>>741329007
wow i did not read all that baseless self wankery

>>741319044
>Hot 357 mag for revolvers.

Hot mag --> nice hole in the ceiling dude.

>>741329941
Ill make it easy for you then.

You didnt make an argument jackass, what you did call an argument is a statistical lie. Any shot center mass from either a 5.7mm or a .45 or even a 9mm will put someone down. It comes down to skill and preference, in terms of sheer performance the .45 will never out perform a 5.7.

>>741317516
Sure sure, the FBI is widely known to be completely incompetent when it comes to firearms and shooting incidents....

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

>>741320641

Yeah /k/ gets really worked up if you refer to a magazine as a clip. Cause they like pretending to be soldiers.

>>741329941
he's right only benefit a 45. has over 5.7 is availability.
>>741329007

>>741320983

Theme music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zUGd-VC3wk

>>741320999

I'm an old fag. Literally old. When I was younger normal people called them clips.

>>741317516
seeing as 9mm is the standard issue for sidearms in the military for most id say you dont know what the fuck your talking about

>>741321779

This fag has never been shooting with girls.

>>741329712
How is that wrong? Most gun crime stems from the drug trade.

>>741330875
Whole reason for the mix up IMO was due to the m1 grande actually using a clip. People jsut stuck with the term

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9 MIL IS PUSSY CARTALIGE, MUST USE HIGHER FOR DICK SHOWING VALUES YOU WIN

Thank god I carry a .44 Revolver

>>741319335
>muh stoppah

>>741330595
Well that and price... btw the FN 5.7 has come down in price but is still comparable to the Sig p229, it actually was a bit more expensive last year lol.

Current pricing puts the basic FN five seven at just over $1100. You can pick up a shit .45 like a highpoint for like $350 :/ you get what you pay for though, single stack mag and heavy as fuck, my dipshit brother bought one... used to tell him when he runs out of bullets he could throw the damn thing at them and kill them XD

>>741331147
Why not step it up to a 454. Casull

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>>741321826

new fag

>>741317516
Are you acting like 1 bullet won't kill anyone

>>741317516
Most people have never been in a gunfight.

And I don't know about you, but if I get shot with a BB Gun then I'm going home.

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>>741322554

Pussy!

>>741331353
Not necessarily kill... but yeah you shoot a mother fucker anywhere in about 80% of their body and they wont be so willing to fight just then lol XD

>>741331253
Yeah I don't know what they other guy was arguing with you about five-seven a nice pistol but as you stated expensive. I think I read int he times that MC and army was considering replacing standard service pistol with it but never came through. (Thank god we spend enough on replacing working things rather then broken)

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All you faggots be needing ranged weapons

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F E D E R A L

>>741331508
Ehh... dont kid yourself most of those M9s dont really work anymore...

They are ancient and very poorly cared for and not that great to start with :/ but they dont get used in combat really either.

>>741317516
It's the most popular round for a reason.

Hitting your target is the most important thing. Shoot what you're comfortable shooting.

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>>741331438
Stone and metal using faggots.

>>741323092

I've seen a lot more stove pipes than primer failure.

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>>741317516
Shot placement is more important than caliber (not that caliber is not important). Take a look at with FBI statistics based on recorded gun fights. It is also relevant to note that there are many instances where suspects are struck with .40 S&W / .45 ACP and continue to return fire for extended periods of time.

Although I personally prefer .45 ACP since it is what I always use, a +P JHP 9mm can certainly get the job done. There are advantages to the 9mm specifically capacity and reduction in recoil.

"There is no valid, scientific analysis of actual shooting results in existence, or being pursued to date. It is
an unfortunate vacuum because a wealth of data exists, and new data is being sadly generated every
day."

http://gundata.org/blog/post/fbi-handgun-ballistics/

"This article brings together what is believed to be the most credible information regarding wound
ballistics. It cuts through the haze and confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically
supportable, principles by which the effectiveness of law enforcement ammunition may be measured. It
is written clearly and concisely."

John C. Hall Unit Chief Firearms Training Unit

>>741323549

Cops care whole hell of a lot less if no one dies.

>>741331617
Don't know what you are talking about I not a fan of the M9 but the pistol is fine. But what i am referring to is the recent purchase by the USMC for 200,000 units of colt M45A1s for MARSOC aka. Marine Raiders

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>>741331717
Put that weak shit down before you give yourself a splinter

>>741323640
>aren't getting bullseyes on Tyrone's valuable-as-gold CNS

Ever live in the ghetto? Gun fights all the time. 19 out of 20 times you hear a bunch of gunshots then nothing. Only every so often do the sirens come.

Truth is ganstas usually miss.

>>741323673

your father is an idiot.