Wow really activated those almonds. Do Christians believe this

It's a bit more complicated than that but yes generally they do. Part 2 happened because man couldn't fullfil God's covenant for causing part 1. So god sent his son to die for man's sins, hence part 2.

The real hard to swallow shit is Jonah and the whale.

>>738387358
Spot on christfag.

>>738387358
The silly stuff like Jonah and global floods is just icing on the cake. The entire concept of substitutionary atonement is horrific, and in context it's nonsensical.

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>>738387065
Not retarded to have faith atheistfag. You have faith in science no?

>>738387065
Yes christfags actually believe this. Don't bother attempting to point out the obvious lies and paradoxes, they'll just NOPE back to their hugboxes.

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>>738387065
God is good and evil. Christians AND atheists can't wrap their heads around this.

>>738387790
>atheists can't wrap their heads around this
I should think not, since there's no god to be either good or evil, let alone both.

>>738387672
I have faith in both. Science for existence, God for subsistence.

>>738387722
In a universe of infinite possibilities every eventuality is inevitable.

Yes, they seriously believe God creates hurricanes and floods and earthquakes to punish humanity as a whole for tolerating gay marriage

>>738387883
You know this for sure? You don't?! How shocking...

>>738388047
Something that is actually impossible will never happen.

>>738388090
People used to worship the sun as a god which does cause these things.

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>>738387883
This isn't even that difficult of a concept.

The second half shows his offer to rescue man, the first half being from one's own neglect.

"I ignore God when nothing bad is happening, but when something bad happens, I immediately blame him"

>>738388047
>the ultimate cop out
By that same coin, I'm currently assfucking your mom while using your dad's empty skull as a coffee cup. Oh, and I'm also god.

>>738388138
Good thing that's totally irrelevant to what we're talking about.

>>738388169
And how is the existence of a higher being and way of existence impossible? Shortsighted little earthling.

>>738388288
If the multiverse theory were true, then a universe in which the multiverse theory is false would have to exist.

>>738388288
Exactly my point you smug little shit.

>>738388238
>>738388238
Except that he's rescuing man from a system that he created with full knowledge that man couldn't abide by it, and the method he uses makes no sense (sacrifice himself to himself to create a loophole in his system).

>>738388348
Demonstrate that it's possible and then we'll talk.

>>738388537
All you need to do is a bit of reading. Humans have been ascending for millenia. The Kingdom is within.

>>738388730
I have done a bit of reading. Humans haven't been "ascending" at all. There's no evidence of a "kingdom".

>>738388047
That is false.
An infinite set guarantees all possibilities, but does not guarantee all impossibilities. To put it another way:
There are an ifininite number of whole numbers. Count as long as you like, you'll never reach the end of the sequence.
But no matter how long you count that sequence of numbers, you will never count to the letter w, the color blue, or the smell of chocolate. Even though the sequence of numbers is infinte, there are still things which are outside of that sequence. To assert that an infinite universe somehow guarantees that anything you can think of inevitably exists somewhere is to completely fail to understand what "infinite" means.

>>738388383
+1

>>738388383
Correct. Mathfag here, the problem is most people have an intuition for infinity meaning "all possible things"

ergo, people read "infinitely many universes" as "all possible universes" which isn't the same thing

infinitely many things != all possible things

>>738387897
so one rooted in reality, one to help you sleep better at night

so when they contradict.. which one do you listen to?
In the end.. is creating something made up to comfort yourself [and that you actually think is real] good or bad for you as a person?

>>738388482
...Yes, but the point wasn't 'would it perfectly work' but rather that people had a choice.

>>738389387
So God isn't perfect?

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>>738388482
Yes, sadly there are folks actively repressing the real story.

That is we are here because of the sins of before not now.We are here to learn death hurts and murder is wrong.

Mercy was supposed to be the main result of sacrifice. We would decide not to sin rather than to have to sacrifice our very best lamb.

But instead religion became and abattoir. Sacrifice a bloody pursuit for profit. Prophets were ignored.

This is but the first lesson, and God was willing to do it as were you.Only Lucifer refuses.

Christ sacrifice was simply a reset that emptied hell and gave some souls a second chance.

Now you know what many men have sought for generations can you deal with it.

TLDR YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD.

>>738389547
The simple fact that it's possible for you to do things he doesn't want you to should answer that. If God wanted everyone to be christian, and actually was omnipotent, we all would be. Even if he wasn't omnipotent, just omniscient, he would have been able to convince everyone without fail that christianity is the correct path. But instead he chose scribes who put their own twist on his word, resulting in dozens of inconsistencies and outright contradictions all through the bible, which directly cause people to not believe his story.

>>738389547
How does his decision to allow free will deny him perfection?

>>738387672
Someone doesn't fucking know the definition of "faith". Grab a dictionary you gullible shit stain.

>>738389741
>can you deal with it.
Since I have no reason to believe any of the babble you spouted, sure, I can easily deal with it.

>>738390006
Because it means that God is limited.

>>738390006
free will and omniscience can't mix. It's paradoxical.

>>738390211
How so? You're making no logical sense.

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>>738389333
Checked

I find it very infrequent when they contradict. Of course it is good for a person. If not for that we are already in hell. Can you imagine a worse hell then being an intelligent being and knowing one day you are going to die, and spending every moment fighting the inevitable, knowing full well you can do nothing about it. Exquisite torture.

So if I have a way to escape this I can walk the earth like it is mine.

>>738390296
god is immune to paradoxes.
checkmate, atheist.

>>738390314
God lacks the power to make a perfect system that includes free will.

>>738387358
I dunno, some nigger rising from the dead is pretty unbelievable.

>>738390409
>Can you imagine a worse hell then being an intelligent being and knowing one day you are going to die
Sure, a hell where you are an intelligent being and never die.

Death is nothing to fear.

>>738387790
>God is good and evil

you're agnostic if you believe in that, because you are not describing the Christian God.

>>738390503
And yet here we are

>>738390597
>here we are
A world where Christianity is in decline.

>>738390561
Sure, immortality sounds good at first. But when you consider that one day the sun will expand and heat up, eventually swallowing the earth and/or exploding...immortality kind of loses its appeal. Who really wants to still be alive five quintillion years in the future when all the stars have burned out and there's nothing but a void of darkness with no one else around?
that's a fucking nightmare.

>>738390561
Ask me about that in a few thousand years and I'll make an informed decision. I don't want to witness the heat death of universe but everything is totally pointless otherwise.

>>738390597
here we are...what? Surrounded by a bunch of undead niggers?

>>738387065
No.They don't.
Suffering is bad from a human perspective, but it's in fact a part of the ever changing existence of everything, and might a be a good thing without you knowing it.
That's what the story about Adam and Eve is for: They eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But humans have a very limited perspective on things, thus that knowledge lead to their fall – we only think we know that something is good. Or bad. But only God can really know.

>>738390578
Isaiah 45:7

>>738390777
So what if everything is totally pointless?

>>738390670
It is. You miss understand me. I had an epiphany one day. I can't explain why. There is an element of it called, you know faith.

The whale is a parable, someone made that up. Genesis is a parable. The end of the Gospel is a first hand account told by men who died in the most horrifying ways possible and died knowing full well if they recanted they would be freed. More than one witness and all that. Very different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqXy5znNTbo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ3to9PqMHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J41__Fwdkmo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ7DJRExWDQ

>>738390854
>suffering not bad
I'm done

>>738390883
Then there's nothing I can do about that. It's Pascal's wager. If I'm right I win everything, if the atheist is right we both were going to lose anyway. No risk, all reward.

Besides if nothing else if people loved the way Christ and the early Christians tryed to we would have less issues. Now I don't mean the way the church says. Only the Jesus part not the hermeneutical interpretation crap.

>>738387065
Old testament vs New testament

That's what happens when you keep the jew texts on your religion

>>738391105
The gospels aren't first hand accounts.

>>738391028


This was a really neat read. Thanks for posting.

>>738390466
No, he has the power but chooses not to. Having a gun and not shooting it doesn't equate to not having a gun

>>738391386
>It's Pascal's wager.
Which is garbage. Your beliefs affect your life in the here and now, and we could both be wrong. What if there is a god, but it loves atheists and hates Christians?

>Besides if nothing else if people loved the way Christ and the early Christians tryed to we would have less issues
The morality of Jesus only makes sense if there's an afterlife.

>>738391577
Then God is evil.

>>738391167
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk90WKS8Opc

>>738391650
No, refusing choice is evil. You're terrible at arguing

>>738391480
No they were written about a hundred years after. But they were told by the disciples and there are historical records of thier existing. Some of the Gospels seem to share the same sources.

Just like reading a newspaper is a second hand account. I can trust more than only what's before me.

>>738391812
>You're terrible at arguing
Nope.

You are saying that God has the power to create a perfect system where free will exists, but instead chose to create an imperfect system where some people will suffer for all eternity. That's evil.

>>738388348
there could be (and possibly is) an entity that fits humanity's criteria for a god, but it being any of the gods for humans religions is unlikely.

>>738391626
Sure, that's a fair point but doesn't change how I play. Especially since as I believe we have received information pointing to the opposite. If Sithrak is our God then we're screwed no matter what we do.

>>738391831
>But they were told by the disciples and there are historical records of thier existing.
Sure. I have no problems with the disciples existing and telling stories. Getting from that to the stories in the Bible being accurate to reality is an extreme stretch, especially given the nature of the claims.

>>738392047
>Especially since as I believe we have received information pointing to the opposite.
Why?

>>738387722
No, christians don't believe this. If you're not christian, don't speak on behalf of christians.

Atheists always use the argument, "If God is a loving God, why are their starving children in Africa?" By that logic, why is there anything bad in the world? Why isn't the world perfect in every way and suffering doesn't exist? If you want the world to be perfect, then free will can't exist. Any little amount of philosophical knowledge would answer most questions about religion and vice versa.

>>738387065
>Do Christians believe this or is this particularly retarded?
yes

>>738392164
>If you want the world to be perfect, then free will can't exist.
Then God is not all powerful.

>>738391626
Jesus was essentially the most radical antiestablishment communistic (little c not big C communist) anarchist there was. I could do with far less greed, government, and church doctrine in my life. More fellowship and less hardship. Excepting this of course it makes more sense if there's an afterlife. That was kinda the whole point he was getting at.

Fuck if I know how the church perverted this gospel of the poor into an intolerant hate filled, wealth loving, BS pushed by the Christian right. Jesus preached to the least amongst us, more at home amongst murderers, whores and theives.

>>738392164
freewill? aren't we supposedly "created in god's image"? are you saying god is an asshole too?

>>738390670
yuo say deez things as if they haven't happened before
>implyink that the bible was documenting the last of the struggles between good and ebil
>what is revelations
of course, I'm not the most versed cunt, but I hope that makes sense to ya.

>>738387672
I don't have faith in science moron. I can sit down and reproduce experiments myself. Not to mention you can run through equations that have multiple applications and prove basic laws correct. The ONLY reason why someone would assume the same level of accuracy and validity from faith as science is simply because that person is too ignorant to understand basic math.

>>738391923
He creates a system in which people have the personal freedom to choose a path of love and peace or not to. He isn't evil; people are just willingly stupid, if we're using this analogy.

>Nope.
Yep.

>>738392526
>That was kinda the whole point he was getting at.
Exactly, which is why a good portion of his morality is naive at best if you don't believe in an afterlife.

The world would be a terrible place if people actually followed his teachings.

>>738392103
Because I had an epiphany and accepted Christ. I can't explain it any better than that. Sure I have questions and doubts. That's part of it too, having doubts and questions is natural, in our nature, and nothing to be ashamed of. We are asked to believe and to spread the word. That's it. We don't become doubt free saints when Christ is accepted. It doesn't get easier, it gets harder.

>>738388970
Well put dude. I was going to lay into him myself but I think you pretty much said it all.

>>738392164
Who gave us free will?

>>738392688
>Yep
Nope

Your response doesn't address my point whatsoever. You need to work on your debating skills.
>people are just willingly stupid
Because of the system that God created.

>>738392833
>Because I had an epiphany
What sort of epiphany?
>I can't explain it any better than that
Then perhaps you should rethink your position.

>>738392255
That's another very common philosophical theory. Again, a little bit a research would answer this for you.

If God is all powerful, can he create a boulder that even he cannot lift? There's many possible solutions to this. The most common answer is: God cannot create a boulder that he cannot lift. The reasoning is that God must be more powerful than all things. Meaning he cannot put any limitations to himself since that would be shown as weakness. God in our definition is a being of power more so than a being of weakness.
The requirement of "God" is a man-made concept. To us, humans, we cannot say God is "all powerful" or "all-knowing" because we're literally creating a definition of "God".

>>738392833
You know all a religious epiphany is? The physical sensation of losing your grasp on reality m8. You may as well be saying "life was too hard for me to grasp so I just remembered how great shit was when I believed in Santa and the tooth fairy. I think I'll apply the logic we used to trick children into behaving properly to my everyday life. Because I'm as weak as I am ignorant."

>>738392919
You're making zero connection to anything at all.

If I'm not 'addressing' your response, it's because you're making no response worth commenting.

Yes, God created that system. Meanwhile, Communism, one of the most controlling totalitarian governments is responsible for the most deaths and individual repression in human history. Maybe....just maybe.... control doesn't necessarily mean good.

>>738392781
Elaborate please...

He preached tolerance, charity, humility, egalitarianism, engagement and self sacrifice.
It is the near opposite of our greedy, fame obsessed, jingoistic and tribal world. It has been perverted by the Protestant ethos into the monster we have now. Don't even get me started on the Catholic Church.

>>738392904
Millions of years of natural selection. Free Will is just nature's attempt to determine the best OS for creatures to survive on.

>>738389151
Indeed, infinitely many universes could be an infinite number of duplicates of the same universe for all we know.

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>>738387790
this
>be god
>realise that one can't exist without the other
>create good and evil
>create heaven, earth, sin, and hell
>in essence, the universe is a yin-yang fuckfest where everything depends on the opposite to have meaning
>tfw there is an incredible amount of beauty in the method behind the madness that dictates the universe that is often overlooked
>tfw I'm just deepthinking and probably just jerking off to my own ideas
>mfw can't stop me
>>738388090
tbh as a Christian myself I don't think that's the case
I think bad shit happens because it's just part of life, everything from natural causes to to war
I like to think that God leaves us to our own devices and the elements for whatever the fuck reason
But I'm also a wrongthink christian as well

>>738393116
>That's another very common philosophical theory.
I know. I maintain that the concept of "all powerful" is self-contradictory, meaning any god with that attribute cannot logically exist. The common out, "maximally powerful" is also problematic in that then God is defined by logic rather than the other way around.

> To us, humans, we cannot say God is "all powerful" or "all-knowing" because we're literally creating a definition of "God".
If you do not create a definition of God, then you cannot say that God does or does not exist, since the term would not have meaning.

>>738393242
>tolerance, charity, humility, egalitarianism, engagement and self sacrifice.
Which, when taken to the extremes he suggested, do not allow for a properly functioning society.

>>738393013
A physical response at my guy level to a sermon I just happened to hear driving into work one early as morning. Something clicked. Almost like an out of body experience or a psychotic kinda deal.

I believe in science, I am a man of letters. But there are things outside of my grasp that I accept now in the framework of faith better than I can accept them in any other framework. I totally get agnostics and atheists. I was one before. The experience felt very outside of myself. I think is what it is doubts and all. If atheist framework works for you, good on you for it.

>>738387358
What about Jonah and the whale, besides surviving inside a whale being absurd?

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>>738393727
That feeling you mention is simply the physical sensation of losing your sanity.

>>738393514
Exactly why people should not have absolutes, but it is fine with people of faith. People of faith literally believe in what they choose to (and to that, add their own explanations, even very logical ones, to their faith), but Atheists cannot claim anything about religion. To theists "God" is their own definition, but to Atheists it doesn't mean anything. You can't try to explain an unknown concept in human understanding. Atheists should accept that, but theists do not, and that's the whole point of being a theist.

>>738393727
>A physical response at my guy level
I'm assuming you meant "gut" level? You understand that your brain can play tricks on you, correct?

>>738393608
So you think we have a properly functioning society? We have a sick society. We are destroying what we have been given dominion over. We turn away while most of the world live in quite desperation while we have the resources but not the will to fix it. I'm not saying we literally live in small communes but we certainly could do a better job of taking care of our fellow man and understanding each other's pains and perspectives.

>>738393777
That's pretty much it. And the whale swallowing a boat. Everything except for the moral of the story is a but much to pardon the pun, swallow.

Who you going to beleive? bill nye the science cuck? liberal science is shithouse propaganda and all you faggots are going to hell.

at least the bible knows the correct amount of genders

>>738394162
Aren't most of the stories allegorical anyway?

Was that story in the new or old testament?

>>738393917
>Atheists cannot claim anything about religion
Atheists can claim things within the framework of a religion in the same way that any reader of a story, even a fictional one, can make claims in the context of that story.
>to Atheists it doesn't mean anything
It's a generic term for a multitude of concepts.
>You can't try to explain an unknown concept in human understanding
What does this mean?

>>738394182
The bible doesn't exclude the possibility. Also what are hermaphrodites?

>>738394009
>So you think we have a properly functioning society?
It isn't perfect by any means, but it's good, yes.
>We turn away while most of the world live in quite desperation while we have the resources but not the will to fix it
Do you know why we have those resources? Because of the way in which our society is constructed, and those resources have indeed helped the poorest nations on the planet.

>>738393878
Yeah. It is. Except I am a perfectly sane individual. Everyone is irrational about a whole host of issues. Don't begrudge me this one. It was a very odd experience. But it informs who I am. Just like epiphanies I had before from psychedelics.

Like I said it is not doubt free. But little is.

anyone got that greentext with stuff along the lines of
>christianity = salvation
>islam = ?
>jew = shekels

it was more elaborate though

>>738394367
satan likes it both ways

>>738394304
You can try to explain writing, but not the concept of God itself.

"Unknown concept" means God. Sure we understand what the definition of God could be, but as hell don't know what it is or if it even exists. So what's the point in trying to disprove or prove of something you have no knowledge of it even existing.

>>738389387
When "god" is the primal cause of all things there is no such thing as "freewill".

>>738394267
OT baby. Yeah almost all the stories are allegorical, even the historical ones have been interpreted to be so and embellished thusly

>>738394485
We could have arrived here by another road for sure. I realize people alive today have it better than ever. Mankind always is moving forward, I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water but the greed and intolerance could be toned down a bit.

>>738394575
>You can try to explain writing, but not the concept of God itself.
Sure you can, people do it all the time.
>as hell don't know what it is or if it even exists
We don't know if the various god concepts actually point to an existent object. That doesn't stop us from understanding the concept.
>So what's the point in trying to disprove or prove of something you have no knowledge of it even existing.
The whole point of trying to prove or disprove something is to gain knowledge of whether or not it exists.

>>738394575
This is my issue with religion.

They try to define god while at the same time saying their nature is incomprehensible to us. Any definition of god is a human construct, further anthropomorphisized to be something we can understand. When in god could simply be a set of rules (physics) that merely define how the particles in the universe interact.

>>738394947
>sure you can, people do it all the time
you can literally talk about the concept of a form of "god" for all of eternity
>gain knowledge of whether or not it exists
that's fine and all, but you'll be talking about the concept of God forever. Is there a point you're trying to make?

>>738391028
Did you expect me to read all that shit?

>>738395021
I actually take more of an issue with people who use the god label for something which already has a perfectly good label, like physics or the universe. Like it or not, the god label carries with it a lot of baggage that will lead to confusion and intentional equivocation if you use it that way.

>>738395021
Exactly. There's too many theists and atheists who ignore philosophy and even mock it. Seems to be more like "anti-theists" and "anti-atheists".

>>738395195
>you can literally talk about the concept of a form of "god" for all of eternity
Well, I can't literally since I'll die.
> Is there a point you're trying to make?
Is there one that you're trying to make?

>>738395021
I'm a Christian and this definitely is the source of most my doubts. Turn it on it's head though, there are things that physics will never be able to probe, like what happened before or even at singularity. There are things immeasurable. I use faith to fill in what is beyond the reaches of logic.

I don't think god is a man with a beard in the clouds. I believe God is subsistence while the universe is existence.

>>738395454
>I use faith to fill in what is beyond the reaches of logic.
Literally God of the gaps.

>>738395439
>Is there one that you're trying to make?
No, not really. Just trying to clear up some misunderstandings about theists. Both open-minded and ignorant theists exist.

>>738395454
And we assume the singularity was reality due to observable evidence pointing in that direction, but we don't know for certain.

Beyond and before this universe, what we know of as physics may not exist or there may be a completely different set of rules. Quantum physics and string theory are attempts at explaining the nature of those things though.

>>738395640
Well would you agree with the statement that what we know is less than what we don't? Also if good existing subsumes the concept of the universe it also provides the reason for the logic. Physics will never answer where we come from beyond a certain point. Maybe faith does.

>>738387065

Kill yourself faggot.

>>738395914
>Well would you agree with the statement that what we know is less than what we don't?
No, because we don't know how much we don't know.
>Also if good existing subsumes the concept of the universe it also provides the reason for the logic.
What?
>Physics will never answer where we come from beyond a certain point
How do you know?
>Maybe faith does.
Faith is a demonstrably unreliable method of knowing, with no mechanism to correct itself or resolve incompatible faith-based beliefs.

>>738394503
If you genuinely believe in God then no, you are not a sane individual. Does your belief in gravity give you any doubts or pause? How about thermodynamics? Do you believe energy flows from high potential to low potential? Because those are fundamental forces of the universe, they've been proven a thousand times over in a million different ways because they are real and their effects can be measured. You have doubts about god because deeeeeep down there is some teeny tiny surviving part of your rational mind telling you it's bullshit. But, you WANT to believe it because it gives you the illusion of safety so you shut that voice down. Belief in Christian doctrine is indicative of a delusional mind rooted in confirmation bias. Ask yourself what it would take to convince you that God doesn't exist. If you can't think of anything, it's not a very good sign.

>>738395890
String theory requires infinite sets of possibilities (which sounds a bit godlike to me, but this is beside the point). The math is sloppy and inelegant. A better theory will arise then us happening to be in this stable configuration. Maybe causality runs both directions.

No matter at some scale things become irreducibile.

>>738387790
>God is good and evil.
isn't that just a great big all encompassing cop-out?
then what's the point?
fuck is you do, fucked if you don't?
better off not bothering with the idea at all.

>>738389387
>that people had a choice.
a choice to what? die in a hurricane?

>>738395454
That's such a bullshit cop-out. To assume we will never know something based on our current technology and understanding is like some pig farmer in the 1500s wallowing in shit claiming that it weren't never gonna be possible fer humanity ta fly like some kinda bird.

Try to understand that the world won't end tomorrow. Technology will keep progressing. Technology has become so advanced that there are people alive today who don't think dinosaurs are real because they can't grasp the concept of carbon dating. Seriously stop to think about that. About the implications that has on the basic human thought process. That if someone doesn't understand something, there is a pattern of behavior where they intentionally reject the truth to avoid self-doubt.

>>738387065
A large chunk of the bible is just repurposed stories taken from pagan religions

>>738394182
What are eunuchs?

>>738396220
Where does basic physics and religion rule each other out? I can square god creating test forces and allowing us to test them. I am a scientist by training. A geologist in actuality. I don't believe there was a 40 day flood that covered the world. I may believe in Younger-Dryas event or memory of the draining of the great basin being assigned a moral element by early peoples. You certainly don't think a priest when asked where the stars come from wouldn't provide an answer 3000 years ago. Doing the best with what they had. So much about the universe gives me pause, quantum physics is downright creepy and any man claiming to understand it are lying. That doesn't mean we can't use quantum forces to our advantage, but at some level it is inscrutable

At some point it is a matter of faith.

>>738396152
>How do you know?
Not that guy, but realizing origin always leads to more questions. As far as we know, something can't come from nothing. And if we were to discover the universe (or whatever that might be contained in) always existed, that would raise just as many questions as if we were to discover the origin. It's a never ending question. What came before?

We're just now getting to what we think might be the building blocks of of the atoms, but unless there's a resolution limit, caused by us being in a simulation, I think given enough time and technological advancement we could continuously split particles into smaller and smaller portions.

>>738389741
>Christ sacrifice was simply a reset that emptied hell and gave some souls a second chance.
Expalin please

>>738396644
Good and evil are just human constructs.

God wouldn't be either, because it's not bound by silly things like that. An omnipotent omniprescient being won't have a mind for good or evil, since it's all relative, one man's evil is another's good.

>>738396888
To be fair, it's a bullshit cop out either way. "There is no God or that God isn't a being or is actually one with the universe" as oppose to "I don't know" - which one is the more logical or forward thinking person? Those crazy thoughts back then were known as philosophy, which turned into science, and even their theories back then were way out there.

>>738396888
There is no way to know what the state of the universe was prior to the big bang. It was a singularity. Maybe one day we can run the clock back to that point with a unified theory but no physicist believes that beyond this is remotely possible.

So it's not a cop out it's an attempt at an extrapolation for something we can't empirically test for. That's what faith is for. It's also what is a cause of doubt it is wholly understandable why many people are agnostic or atheists. Especially since so many religious people behave so poorly and hypocritically.

>>738391167
>>738391790
>posting a 9/11 truther as a source
https://youtu.be/mC_wryOJhmo

>>738393148
I followed your "arguments" through and through.
Sure, let's say man made evil is needed, for argument's sake. That still leaves hurricanes and floods. Haiti didn do nuffin and it got wrecked.

>>738397374
>Good and evil are just human constructs.
B-but God defines good and evil in the Broble, no?

>>738397184
>As far as we know, something can't come from nothing
Depends on the definition of nothing you are using.
> if we were to discover the universe (or whatever that might be contained in) always existed, that would raise just as many questions as if we were to discover the origin
Would it?
>What came before?
What if that question becomes nonsensical, like asking what is south of the South Pole? Indeed, some physicists have put forward that idea with regard to the origin of the universe.

>>738397927
I think survival of our species does a pretty good job of defining good and evil. Generally we have to be good for our species to prosper. This obviously means what's good for the species isn't always good for individual.

>>738397374
>Good and evil are just human constructs.
>God wouldn't be either, because it's not bound by silly things like that. An omnipotent omniprescient being won't have a mind for good or evil, since it's all relative, one man's evil is another's good.

the battle between good and evil are the bedrock foundation of all abrahamic religions and many others too. your words are literally gibberish in the context of this thread.

>>738398164
You could argue for some Stalin type shit with that attitude.

>>738398061
I think singularities giving rise to other universes is intriguing. Maybe them evaporating represents changes in the baby universes vacuum state or maybe its a function of heat death of them. Maybe each successive iteration is more conducive to singularity formation

>>738398164
>I think
No you don't
>survival of our species does a pretty good job of defining good and evil.
Literally genocide India then, it would do wonders for the environment.
Also this is unrelated to the thread we're talking about God here.

>>738397094
Seriously, people say they're are 2 genders and shit but forget about eunuchs. Apparently God said nice things about them. No wonder; they kept guard over King David's concubines and were scribes. But god hated trans, but if you stood guard over his whores you were all right.

>>738398061
>What if that question becomes nonsensical, like asking what is south of the South Pole? Indeed, some physicists have put forward that idea with regard to the origin of the universe.

Never thought of it like that.

By that sense, perhaps time is cyclical or everpresent, and we as such limited creatures are forced to experience it only in one direction? That would just be one possibility, though, I suppose.

>>738394182
Bait right? Either that or retarded /pol/ tier "either with us or sjw" king of thinking. What are muslims then? They're neither christian nor do they support, as you called it, "liberal science"

>>738398627
God doesn't distinguish between sins. Homosexuality is the same as murder. Every one sins, no exceptions. King David did too. No one could keep the covenant so that's why we needed Jesus. Being intolerant greedy assholes is a sin too and the church is full of them. I suspect a gay bar is too.

>>738397095
>You certainly don't think a priest when asked where the stars come from wouldn't provide an answer 3000 years ago. Doing the best with what they had.
so it's okay for priest to make shit up (and claim it canon) when the are faced with their own ignorance?

>>738398287
Those were all words written by man.

Good and evil change based on the perspective of the story teller.

Yin and yang creates a better representation of the universe than good and evil.

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>>738398961
>be mean to someone because you had a bad day
>same as genocide
Wow God's super fair guy I wanna hang out

>>738398964
No. It's not alright but is understandable and totally human. A fool believes Genesis literally on face of modern evidence. Doesn't effect my faith

>>738398733
Yeah. Kurt Vonnegut saw it that way. There is no death because everyone lives in their own little time, forever.

>>738396644
>fuck is you do, fucked if you don't?
This made me giggle

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>>738399079
No. He's very fair. Every one deserves death and dissolution. But he gave his son as a way to atone. He forgives repentant mass murderers the same as liars. That is something man can never do, except on 4chan with it's meme love for Hitler

>>738398961
So salvation, then, is an 'all-or-nothing' for humanity? What a crock of shit. This is a pretty black-and-white guy ruling over a universe of grey. He seems compassionate.

>>738395454
>I'm a Christian... I use faith to fill in what is beyond the reaches of logic.
>>738395914
>Well would you agree with the statement that what we know is less than what we don't? ... Physics will never answer where we come from beyond a certain point. Maybe faith does.

do we know more than we did before? will we know more than we do now? your position is that everything you can't explain is god. so the process of humanity gaining knowledge and understanding is literally diminishing god? that is, god's power is directly related to our ignorance? that's kind of an atheist's argument.

>>738399267
Lots of evidence against this. But maybe everything does exist because it has to because you observed it.

Or maybe the loaf of time can be cut many different ways

>>738399474
So if I don't feel bad about that one time I fucked someone I wasn't married to I'm just as bad as someone who doesn't feel bad about raping or killing someone?
Fair?

>>738399035
do you have an actual position in regards to the discussion here or are you just stroking your own self-importance?

>>738399501
Not the good of the old testament. Not known for compassion. That's why Jesus changed this.

>>738399474
Pretty sure it only works that way with catholicism.

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>>738397676

96/5000
Then Bin Laden is alive! That's why they did not show the body and supposedly threw it into the sea ...

>>738387897
Then you must not have looked to far into either

>>738398961
Reminder: God only saves through blood, either OT or NT. YHVH is a blood god. He also advocates strongly for violence and sectarianism. This is realmy why circumcision became a thing. It's the biological equivalent of wearing different hats. What's this shit about 'chosen people'? Aren't all people Gods' people? Why play favorites if every sin is equal?

>>738399141
so, what part of the bible is truth? how do you know to draw the line there? and does you position fit with christianity in general?

>>738399699
In the eyes of the law certainly not, the laws of man differentiate between this and rightfully punish the rapist and not the adulterer. But yes in the eyes of God we are all irredemable without Jesus. It's not my job to tell what's in a man's heart, but it is societies job to make rules about how we want to live. Render unto ceaser that which is ceasers.

>>738399725
Yes, I stated it, but your head is so far up your ass you probably didn't even notice.

I said (if there is a god in the Christian sense), it would not be good nor evil, as those are human constructs that mean nothing in the universe. They mean nothing outside of human life. Animals aren't good or evil. Planets don't sway to good or evil.

I feel you still don't get it though and will just derail the conversation again, as you've done in the previous two replies.

>>738399474
People deserve death because God said so. Not much value on His Image then?

>>738399977
I believe the line is drawn at Jesus. His life and death validates the OT as fufilled. All the rules and legalism was washed away by his blood.

And yes it is a religion about human sacrifice and blood at it's core. But life is hard and bloody too and whom am I to say as to why God was vengeful.

>>738388047
Not something that's impossible. You'll never have something like amarried bachelor or a god

>>738400213
There's not much to man's image either, and were made in his. Man commits atrocities on itself all the time. That's why Jesus was needed to atone to the vengeful God.

>>738400450
>a married bachelor
All you gotta do is change the definition. Infinite possibilities allows for infinite differing definitions.

But that's not what you meant and I know it.

213 nine4 three 3362


https://youtu.be/Y_Yx8zJkDFw

>>738387065
God is random, live with it.
Jesus was just a Jew that stood against the law system they created. He was essentially a pissed off lawyer.

>>738400699
He was a carpenter.

They didn't have lawyers back then. No need for em. The powers at be just killed or tortured any possible criminals.

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>>738400591

Infinity != Every Possibility

>>738391028
I believe that karma/ reincarnation/ Heaven and Hell all exist. Before your karmic debt is settled (or you if don't accept Christ), you are perpetually reincarnated into a higher or lower version of Hell on Earth. So depending on your free will actions in one lifetime, you are given a better or worse subsequent life in comparison.

>>738400392
I am to say. God is jealous. He cannot stand that something other than Him ( which if he even is God what is that?) would be worshipped, fully knowing they are just finding ways to cope with no knowledge. A yin and yang God would pity them. But God does not. The hatred for that which is foreign is rife in the Bible. And applauded.

>>738400856
Just redefine the words and anything is possible.

Like I said, I know what you mean. Just being a dick.

>>738391028
I was actually very interested until the end and he made it sound like a fucking mana bar being depleted.

>>738391028
That guys talking out his ass. Probably some basement faggot.

>>738391386
But the god of the bible prioritizes not worshiping anything other than him over not worshiping anything at all. So if you're wrong and one of the other thousands of denominations of christianity is correct, or Catholicism or anything other religion, then an athiest would have a better chance of going to heaven than a religious person who chose the wrong religion out of tens of thousands.
>tldr being neutral is safer then picking a side

>>738399924
I'm a geologist. I have drank deeply from both wells and find both just as full of mystery as when I started. Any man who claims to have all the answers is not to be trusted.

>>738400947
Where does any of that even come from? Wouldn't something natural like a state of nothing make more sense?

>>738392164
Then how does a perfect, sin free, heaven exist with free will?

>>738400947
Doesn't reincarnation go against some of the ideas of afterlife put forth by Christians?

The bible doesn't really talk about the afterlife, so I guess it could be whatever you want to believe.

The texts of religion are from man. They are meant as a parable to give man something more than himself. Not to be taken literally. Except for the retarded ones, most know this.

Not that I support it, but if a delusion gives people hope when life is shit, does it matter?

>>738387065
If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing.

>>738401168
All I know is that I know nothing

-Abraham Lincoln

>>738401279
Only when they use that delusion to make life shittier for people who disagree.

>>738387065
Previously ordained minister coming through

I'm not even going to touch panel two cause if you aren't a christfag then you don't care

panel one on the other hand Jesus straight up said during his ministry that God really doesn't wish to intervene during natural disasters anymore, that bad things will happen to good people, that all people even(especially might be a better word) christians, and there will always be death, war, suffering, poor people, etc etc etc

It has nothing to do with original sin

>>738397095
Geologists aren't real scientists. It's why so many of them turn out to be religious

>>738399977
Fits very poor with mainstream Christianity. Most churchs require a litteral interpretation. It can only be approached by hermeneutics.

I for one am deeply suspicious of hermeneutics and traditions. I guess my logic is assuaged by the disciples as historical figures and martyrdom to preach the word of Jesus. I have doubts but I believe in Jesus and Physics.

So did Issac Newton and many preeminent minds throughout history

>>738387065
The Old Testament is a collection of myths. Myths are based on some version of the truth, so there's must be some truth to the Bible. That said, I'd wager the entire Bible is the result of exaggerations turned into a religion.

If Jesus could cure leprosy and blindness, surely his miracles would have been recorded by someone other than his disciples? Furthermore, if Jesus was so revolutionary that he needed to be crucified, wouldn't his trial and execution be recorded by the Roman empire?

Most likely, Jesus was just a travelling philosopher. The ones who attached his miraculous works and relation to God were his disciples. Exaggerations became hallmarks in Christianity.

>>738400392
Tell me then: what is the big difference between old Jews and throwing virgins into a volcano? Shit God played Punk'd with Abrahams' son just to see how far he'd go. And what about Job? Explain how Job deserves his entire family murdered because God and Satan made a wager. Seems like if you believe the correct God he shouldn't punish you for shits and giggles. God seems almost to enjoy frying ants.

>>738401068
That's what this place runs on. I like 4chan because it is raw humanity. There's something honest about being anonymous even if it makes lying easier.

>>738393394
>be god
>create some little meat fuckbags
>know the future cuz all knowing and shit
>one of them does the thing I told them not to
>act shocked
>banish that bitch
>they have mini fuckbags
>mini fuckbag finds wife
>wait where did she come from?
>whatever
>lots of time passes
>they're doing lots of bad stuff
>kill them all
>put 2 of each animal on a boat made my a good little meat fuckbag
>where do they eat/shit? What about animals that have to live in colonies?
>whatever
>invent rainbows because apparently water didn't refract light before then?
>fresh meat fuckbags are alright now
>wait no
>fuk
>go down there myself
>die
>all better now
>wait no they're bad again
>whatever

>>738401522
No. There is plenty of atheist Geologists. It makes the idea of the flood laughable. I heckle "Christian Geologists" whenever possible. I apply science where possible.

>>738401279
Yes. This 'delusion' has propagated the monoploization of thought and values. It is not to be trusted.

>>738397441
It should be obvious that having the self awareness to claim "I don't know" is more advanced than forcing a belief in a theory about magic sky kingdoms because it makes you feel a little better about death. It should really go without saying that both sides are not equal and one originates from a sincere desire to understand the world around us whereas the other is a bedtime story.

>>738401573
Literally nothing is different. Jesus is what is different.

God is greater than human morality, and this is a hard pill to swallow. Life is a hard pill to swallow.

>>738401559

I thought that it was recorded and mysteriously "lost" a couple centuries later? I got to look.

>>738401846

parable

>>738401846
You sarcastically got to the whole concept of free will. It seems as unlikely scientifically as religiously that we have it. We are meat bags.

>>738397649
You realize there was a point in human history where leading scientific minds truly believed in both a flat Earth and that the earth was the center of the known universe. To assume our future capacity to learn and understand complex fundamentals based on our modern day limitations is actually retarded. Like, seriously get yourself tested. That is a glaring logical fallacy that should be addressed before allowing something like you to drive a car or have kids.

>>738387358
Does anybody think that liberals are the second coming of the world wide flood. They were obviously sent here to destroy humanity and make sure nobody including themselves survive.
But who sent them?
Whoooo?

>>738400591
And if you change the definition of god to a rock then it would mean god is real. You can't change the definition of the words I'm arguing with to make them fit what you think.

>>738398287
It's only gibberish if you operate under the assumption that the gibberish in the Bible is law passed down from the heavens instead of simply being what it is: a simple book of parables that people began taking literally.

>>738401168
Yet you trust an all knowing god?

>>738402368
Of course capacity changes that doesn't invalidate my faith. We always will know less than what we don't. Religion attempts to address the why of existence while science I forms the how of existence. I personally want to know both. By definition of faith they may just be stories, I can't know, but I have faith.

>>738398961
It's just self depreciation m8. Christianty is a masochistic religion that was thought up to control slaves. That's pretty much all there is to it.

>>738402172
I just checked *a Christian website* and it states that his death and crucifixion were recorded, not by the Roman empire, but by various travellers.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Jesus existed or not because the message, should you choose to believe it, stays the same.
Some things, like curing blindness and leprosy, feeding crowds of people with a finite amount of fish and bread are simply impossible.
What I'm trying to say is that the events are most likely exaggeration. The message and themes behind Christianity and how it affects you are not.

>>738391028
That was a lot of bullshit..

Imma give 1 example..

"Soul" is a concept.

Before mankind there were not any freakin concepts nor shitty religions to get confsued about.

The end.

>>738401252
I have always found it interesting that God asks mankind to worship no OTHER god before Him, and says He is the alpha and omega, but none of that necessarily makes him the exclusive god of existence, only man's creator. There may very well be other gods of lower, equal, or even higher status. Now if that last statement isn't heresy, then I don't know what is. I may believe in the Christian God but I'm not necessarily monotheistic, however I do not worship any other possible God. I believe that the "Heaven" that Christians strive for is obtainable upon death, but we have infinite lives to beat the game. On the path to unlocking the final achievement, there are plenty of outside influences and pitfalls to lead us astray. Think of it as the original dos version of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy - fucking next to impossible. I also believe I angels, and that if you know how to listen they can steer you back on course.

>>738402486
Shitposting and Andy sixx forced memes are the coming flood that will wipe us out

>>738402521
Reality is simply perception

>>738402859
I bet you have a sword and read books about kaballah too. It's okay you'll forgive your dad one day

>>738400947
So you just looked at the combined insanity of the ancient world and tweaked it to be something mentally pleasing to yourself? How do you not see that as insanity - not making fun of you, just curious what someone actually tells themselves to believe in delusions that strong

>>738402968
Maybe to you but in reality it is my perception that matters

>>738402859
It's really neat to see the creative ways the insane rationalize their mindset.

>>738402080
Such faith for an ant frying deity. I think Jesus became popular as a catch-all for the problems of the OT, and the scribes wrote it that way. The Gentiles were literally elbowed in because they had faith. Originally God was Jew only. Gentiles are the Jews' bastard son. Doesn't get me all fired-up for Christanity. A jealous God? Why not worship Zeus then? At least he might work on your behalf and show a little gratitude from time to time. An imperfect belief system by unenlightened half-wits. Nice going explaining Job, btw. If you don't believe the entire literal Bible is the Word of God you are not Christian. Also explain the Council of Nicea and the Apocrypha. Why were they not 'Bible' enough?

>>738402968
But the meaning that you got from my words are the same, even if the words get redefined

>>738402521
Christianity does it all the time. Who are we to judge?

>>738403146
How solipsistic of you

>>738401172
The God I believe in is not bound by the laws of our universe nor does He exist in it. Our universe is made of space, time, and matter; all three of those things were covered and created by Him in the first sentence of The Bible. He created them, therefore could not previously have existed in them. A state of nothingness is a universal concept, as is our understanding of existence. God is on a plane of existence that we as humans have no way of understanding, and that is why atheists flat out reject the possibility.

>>738403253
I am a Christian and don't believe the whole of the Bible literally. That's the no true Scotsman argument. Now I'm certainly not joining a Baptist Church with my attitude. But I'm a non authoritarian, establishment kinda guy. That's what Jesus preached against.

>>738403711
It is. It's also not my true belief. I do think shared experience defines reality. Btw that's a great 5 dollar word.

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Omg just praise KEK U AUTIST

>>738403836
Ain
Ain Soph
ain Soph Aur

>>738404107
Are you Caesar's bitch?