Points for and against communism? Sick of reading extremely biased

>>736319121
A great goal but simply impossible.

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>>736319121
1) Humans are conservative by nature, we value what is 'ours' and there will always be a 'THEM and 'US' whether you like it or not.

2) It has failed throughout history

3) It's on the far left of the political spectrum for a reason, just like fascism is on the far right. They are extremely niche ideology that literally has failed every time throughout history.

Hence why a balanced liberal society based off democracy and mild capitalism works best.
People get to vote, veto votes, demonstrate, etc, and capitalism creates a healthy competition for people to strive to better themselves, which in turn betters the community and a society as a whole.

Sounds good on paper but human greed and or envy will test it up from the inside out. I'm hopeful for a universal income system where everyone has the opportunity to you know, not starve while also providing capatalist incentives to contribute.

>>736319346
What makes it a great goal?

It disincentives work as the populous will not pursue higher education or go into high paying, difficult work as there's simply no point. It also requires a ridiculously authoritarian dictatorship to work because of all the basic freedoms you take away.

>>736319705
true communism does not have a government or hierarchies.

>>736319121
It fails

>>736319848
Did you write some of the articles I read? Your points seem to be just as good.

>>736319839
That's another reason why I don't want to have communism and now fuck off to r/anarchy

>>736319461
>It has failed throughout history
Socialism in Chile would've worked if the USA didn't destroy the country for the sole purpose of preventing people to see that there's an alternative to capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile

>>736319121
For:
Should it succeed, you have an equal and fair society that is unplagued by government control, abusive business, or problematic social class discrepancies because all of those have been done away with. Everyone lives by their needs and people work together to preserve freedom and equality.
Against:
Communist doctrine is highly susceptible to modification, and has historically shown that it's very easy for someone to rise into power after the revolution and completely take control of everyone's lives and cause damage. Furthermore communism is not attainable for the same reason that the assumption that buyers in a market are rational about their purchases is a fallacy: it's unrealistic. In trying to undo social hierarchy and assumes everyone will want to live this way (communism is supposed to be global) and touts itself the most perfect philosophy. Additional criticism is absence of payment and money removes incentive for people to produce, and proves a dubious failure at best, and a power that threatens to destroy the world at worst.

>4chan
>objective view of things

Pick one

>>736319461
Fascism is actually center right.

>>736320167
authoritarian right

>>736319121
>Sick of reading extremely biased articles online
>I'll get 4chan's rational and objective opinion

>>736319121
So, you're requesting extremely biased posts online?

>>736320240
Center authoritarian right.

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Starvation.

>>736319121
Good luck finding an unbiased opinion on /b/.

>>736320055
this

>>736319121
... ever thought of just reading the original literature? no? stay on /pol/ then and fall for quote mining, thats only fitting for you retarded people

>>736320301
Go through this thread. When 4chan takes shit seriously, they actually give good points. Fuck outta here.

>>736320055
You can't say that it would have worked. That is pure conjecture. A better word would be "could" not "would" as "would" implies absolute fact.

So much for unbiased opinions.

>>736320611
USA's secret service payed the train drivers double their normal wage if they stopped working. They did this to fuck up the transportation of resources

>>736319705

This, except it doesn't take away from people going for higher careers. People will still attend college and university if it's free to avoid the inevitable... Joining the workforce. That's not to mention the people that wouldn't want to work a menial job their entire life. Some people can, some people just can't.

Everything else is a negative though.

>>736320735
That doesn't negate the fact that Socialism in Chile is a "could've" scenario and not "would've" like you claim.

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>>736319121
Points

>>736320916
well okay then
I'm providing you with information. They did similar things to cuba, they sprayed poison on their fields to fuck up food production. For the same reason: Preventing an example for working socialism/communism to exist. Once a country starts going into slight commie directions they intervene so they can go on claiming communism can never work right without issues.

>>736321241
post something i can fap to at least

>>736319121
If it works it's free and equal, but too many people abuse it and it's not very realistic.

>>736321355
That was more to give Russia the finger than anything.

>>736319701
The vision of everyone having food, job and constantly progressing as a society

>>736321685
So you're implying it can't be the reason for a weak food production because they meant to have a different effect, giving Russia the finger?

communism is the ultimate form of embezzlement; you steal everything from the working man (property, profits & capital) and sell the fruit of his labor and pocket it for yourself, except for a few crumbs that you allow to trickle down through the caste system to maintain the illusion of prosperity.
>everybody are equally free to be poor for the greater good

lazy people like communism because it offers them more resources for less work.

ambitious people dislike it because it makes it less profitable to work hard and compete for the resources

>>736322006
No, I'm saying all of this stuff done by the U.S. only done to upset its enemy, not go "huuuah de zoshilism duznt werk."

>>736319121
Pro: it's a nice idea. That is to say Marxism is a nice idea, but all the name + isms attached to it however were not. See below

Pro: it probably helped far more than it hurt, by providing a symbolic enemy for capitalism to struggle against with very little real or serious threat, during the Post-War era. It was an enemy we could find common ground, and work with when necessary, because they were not completely insane, or eager to see the world destroyed, unlike Radical Islam.

Con: It has been an abysmal failure in practice, because the people who practice it tend to have very bad intentions, and do not give a shit about the ideals they preach, or the people they preach them to.

Con: unlike capitalism it cannot change and adapt in the real word. It's all or nothing, because Communists treat it like a religion, that is above all question.

Con: other leftists, including other Communists are the enemy too. Communism CANNOT BE QUESTIONED OR CHALLENGED BY ANYONE, EVER!

Con: pure economies do not work. It doesn't matter whether they are Communist, Capitalist, feudalist, etc. Mixed economies do work, which is something capitalism embraced long ago, albeit grudgingly, which is why capitalist socities did not collapse as Communist ones did in the early 90s. China unlike the Soviets and Eastern Bloc embraced change in the form of a mixed economy, and that is why they have managed to survive, and thrive.

>>736321887
So no matter how hard I work, I will always have a job? I prefer capitalisms goal of working hard to create enough value that I can live the rest of my life in leisure.

>>736322685
>profit, sell, capital
>Communism
Pick one.

Then turn off fox news and go read a book.

>>736319121
First of all, in human history, there never has been a communist state . All states representing themselves as communist, have been authoritarian socialist states . A communist state comes into being after an alliance between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat leading to an overthrow of the one precentors . we are probably coming to the time for instance , in the United States , where that might happen . The problem is , the bourgeoisie may cease to exist before such an alliance could be made .


Other than that, Communism is a delightful fairy story by the lost marx brother.

Я eдинcтвeнный нacтoящий кoммyниcт в этoм тpeдe. Bce ocтaльныe - пидopacы и бypжaзнaя пoгaнь!

>>736319121
Considering communism and socialism fails at sustaining even the most basic of necessities, such as food production, without begging for outside aid, fuck communism!

>>736323278
there will never be a communist state, ever
the communist idea is a bait to lead useful idiots to support an overthrow of the present government in favour of a socialist/people's party that would never be able to attain power on their own
once they are in power, they'll never fulfill their part of the communist agenda and "give up" the power to the people, but the retards defending communism can never see that
there will always be a party holding the power, a state
even in their dream utopia of no state society, there are still comissions of people to decide what the community will do
guess what, that is a minority of people deciding the fate of everyone else
hence a state

tl:dr fairy tale to make idiots support a bunch of useless parasites that would never achieve anything on their own

>>736319346
It's a fucking horrible goal.

>>736319705
Have you ever thought that people could pursue higher educations not because higher payment, but because it makes them feel very good, and everything they learn is something they WANT to work passionately with?
Capitalism is a great idea but it kinda got out of hands quite fast, it doesn't make any sense anymore. We can't even save our own planet because of money, what? It's not like it's something like oxygen, that would just kill us if it was taken from us, it's a man made thing and all it can do is lift someones ass from the bed at 5am.
We all know human is able to work for greater good, why not for ourselves, together?

>>736323860
What? You don't want free shit or people not bossing you around?

go communism

>>736324059
its the opposite of what you claim, communism is people bossing you 24/7

>>736323278
You seem anxious. Just remember, that 1% are the reason your beloved welfare scroungers and proletariat are sustained. And why many proletariat reach bourgeoisie status and beyond.

>>736324059
>>736324352
also there is no free shit, ever

everything has a price and someone paying or working for it
if its free to you, it means someone else is working double

>>736324451
>>736324352
Except prices don't exist in communism because money has been abolished.

>>736319121
against: killed more people than any other political system in the last 200 years, especially killing its own people

>>736324593
value of things still exist, even if you burn the paper
no one will trade a nail for a car
no one will work for free

>>736320055
Most people in Chile are thankfull for the US intervention. Chile is the best country in south america thanks to it, and would be another socialist shithole without the intervention.

>>736324816
That's what' wrong with communism, but you aren't substantiating how the goal is horrible. Goals are different from results, after all.

>>736324816
Kinda why Cuba still looks like a freeze frame from the late 50s.

I don't believe its an idea that can be made to work over-night, but I do believe at some point its very likely we'll end up, as a society, being smart enough to live in a communist society. Anyone can see competition against your fellow man is a lot of the time not a good thing, but at the moment its too ingrained in human nature.

>>736325390
Cuba isn't communist though.

You can have equality of outcome as much as you can part the sea with your mind. It would be nice, but that's not how reality works.

More people have been murdered in the name of communism than any other ideology/religion/economic system in human history.

In soviet russia people would eat their own babies. They could have just grown their own food instead, but the state wouldn't allow it. So millions starved and people ate each other instead.

>>736325545
>muh communism has never been tried

>>736325390
Yeah, nothing to do with having been excluded from contact with the rest of the world by the USA for a couple decades.

>>736325763
It isn't, stop misapplying fallacies. Let's get it out of the way now that I'm a right-winger, but I believe in knowing your enemy before commenting. Cuba isn't communist because:
1: There's a government; communism is about the advocation for dismantling it.
2:They use money; communism advocates for the abolition of money.
3:There is a class divide between government and citizens; communism seeks to abolish class systems.
4:There are state run businesses; under communism the means of production belongs to workers, not foreign entities.
At best Cuba is an Authoritarian Socialist state, which isn't communism.

>>736325520
Everybody will just play nice one day.. until one person takes advantage of that kindness? That's all it takes and we're back to the ideal meritocracy to create fairness. I used to think like this, but just observe nature. Everything is hierarchy.

IT NEVER WORKS

>>736325545
No true Scotsman fallacy

>>736326430
Not a no true Scotsman, see>>736326219

>>736323897
Be honest, will anyone ever go into building, trash collection (that actually pays quite well) without an incentive to do so. Seriously, you're given the choice of "do no work" and "do 5 years of college and a ridiculous amount of work every day" for the exact same reward. Who in their right mind would pick option 2?

>>736319121
+Stalin killed a lot of jews (i think about half a million)
-Hitler killed at least 6 times more jews abd he was no communist... so i guess it's bettr than what we have today, but the only way to worldpiece and to defeat hunger and poverty forever was, is and will always been national socialism.

>>736326219
read
>>736323851

>>736326357
Any society has hierarchy of course, some people are born leaders and some aren't, for one example. But this hierarchy doesn't need to exist in terms of how much property you own.
You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours is a pretty well working concept in nature. Collectivism isn't a utopian concept, but of course, there will always be a couple of bad apples amongst the bunch. The likelihood of such bad apples appearing however doesn't have to be very high. Of course, problems thend to only really occur when a bad apple comes into power - that's an issue that needs more thinking of.

>>736326817
That doesn't substantiate your point, that only proves there are flaws in trying to implement communism.

>>736326917
you didnt read

it'll never be implemented
its the carrot in front of the donkey

>>736327024
Again, still doesn't substantiate your no true Scotsman claim. While not feasible, communism has a set of core values and characteristics set by Marx and Engels, and if it doesn't fit in one of those then it isn't communist.

>>736327243
*if it doesn't fit all of those then it's not communist.

>>736326561
This is what Communists always say. Someone tries to implement Communism and fails and then it's always "well, they never fully implemented Communism" or "they weren't really Communists". At a certain point, you have to recognize that no one ever transitions to full 100% theoretical Communism because it is impossible and they always are going to fail one way or another.

>>736327243
its funny how you dont even understand why the shit you are babbling isnt a valid response to what I said

>>736327361
That had nothing to do with what I'm arguing, if it isn't communist then it isn't communist, and some group of radicals masquerading and abusing the name doesn't change that.

>>736319121
Communism "could" be good...if it was to rule over pre-programmed robots. Human nature will never let itself ruled by communism. People like to own things, whether it's luxury items or basic items. Communist and socialist states always end up rotten to the core with corruption because the heads of state always end up wanting to be "more equal" than the common shmuck slaving his life away in a coal mine for stale bread and water. They become the "bourgeois" they pretend to hate so much.

Capitalism has its flaws because everyone can't be winners, but I'd rather be poor in the hopes of one day being rich than being poor, but never seeing the end of it because the big man upstairs decided it was in my best interest to let me and my family starve because the crop farming ratios he imposed were simply ridiculous.

>>736321355
How about the mass starvation in the USSR and Mao's china? You going to blame that on the US too?
>>736324637
This

>>736327380
You said no true Scotsman, and I'm educating you why you're wrong.

>>736327486
this

>>736327564
not the same guy
you dont even know who you are quoting

>>736322685

>property, profits & capital

>lazy people like it

were still talking about communism right?

>>736327726
the whole reason for communism as an ideology to exist is lazy people wanting the profits, property and capital of others

>>736321887
nothing progresses under communism, theres no incentive to do so.

see: American cars VS Russian cars during the USSR period as a simple example.

>>736327632
In that case GTFO, why are you convoluting a semantical argument about what constitutes as communism by telling me about how bullshit it is?

>>736327466
That's the dodge and why it is a true Scotsman fallacy. You can always say it's a "group of radicals masquerading" as Communists. Because even 100% Communist theory says that Communism has to start with socialism and then eventually transition to pure true Communism. So whenever someone tries to go down the road to Communism and fails, you can always conveniently say that they aren't weren't true Communists.

>>736327921
you are the semantical bitch arguing about a not true scotsman
what I said is communism doesnt work and will never work because its not even meant to, its a bait for idiots to fall, the carrot for donkeys to follow
and you keep falling to the "not true communism" bullshit

>>736328141
That's not how no true Scotsman works in this case, in communist theory it dies say it has be socialist before communist, but the end goal is communism, not gulags.

>>736328248
*does

>>736328248
>semantical bitch

What do you guys think about communism and women? I believe in a communist system will help liberate many women in society but that's just my thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6zCcJf494

>>736328178
Are you insinuating I'm a communist? Because I already said I was a right-winger.

>>736328366
It'd give us a matriarchal USSR, I'll pass.

>>736328340
Not my fault you engaged a semantical argument.

>>736328478
are you retarded ?
nowhere in what I said could insinuate anything
why are you trying to change the focus of the discussion so badly

>>736328914
no one engaged it, people are discussing other things, you are the only one that keep trying to revert it back to the semantical discussion

>>736319121

points for:
- nice flag
- first man into space, albeit not the claimed Gagarin, also first woman, first dog, and so on

points against:
- Soviet revolution was started by Jews who nicknamed themselves bolsheviks
- socialism and communism did (and still do) every fucked up thing imaginable
- Soviet communism killed at least 60 million, Chinese one at least 150 million, Pol Pot by itself two millions
- in the end, communism degrades to gay shit and zionism shit

some systems need to be supported by the state for the greater good.

>>736329014
Really? Because I started this whole thing with Cuba not being communist by definition, then you started feeding me crap that had no relation to what I was talking about.

>>736320055
Stupid nigger, Communism ≠ Socialism

>>736329034
The Soviets weren't communist though.

WHY THE FUCK AREN'T YOU GUYS JOINING YOUR LOCAL RED ARMY?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A25G_YO-S38

>>736328248
The only sense in which you are correct that this is not a classic case of no true Scotsman is that in this case, it is impossible to be a Scotsman at all. Every single socialist state established with the end goal of achieving "Communism" has failed. The end goal is impossible. It always ends in gulags or similar horrors regardless of the original intent of those who set out to establish a Communist utopia. And then guys like you always say "well, they never were really Communists". They were never really Communists because Communism has proven impossible to achieve. You will always be able to say "well, they weren't really Communists". You will always be able to brush off the sins of those who try and create Communism by saying they were never truly 100% Communist. In effect, it is the extreme case of no true Scotsman. It is never a true Scotsman.

Real Marxism would work extremely well but people have already urine the idea of communism due to greed.

>>736319121
communism would work in way, it wouldnt be "true" communism, but one way it could work is that almost all the work is done by robots (farming,building etc) and "led by law", there would be troops which are brainwashed from birth that will eradicate those who break the law

>>736329503
Greed is part of human nature. So "real Marxism" would be impossible with real human beings in a real human society in a real country on the real planet earth.

>>736329381
Brush it off? That's not why I'm arguing, I'm arguing because people don't use the correct label of Authoritarian Socialist.

>>736329505
continuing, and all religions are abolished, and all work is forwarded to the betterment of humanity and science/technology, (humanity as in creating superhumans through genemanipulation and reproduction) and human expiremntation would be legal

>>736329505
>there would be troops which are brainwashed from birth
do you even read the shit you say ?

>>736329662
I am arguing that real Communism is impossible and that all socialist states that attempt to implement Communism, no matter how well intentioned, end up as either some sort of "authoritarian socialist" (as you call it) or something more chaotic like the Khmer Rouge or the cultural revolution. So saying that they were never really Communist is a dodge and a brush off. Every attempt at Communism has failed. You can't just say "oh well, they weren't really communists". Who are these imaginary "real" Communists?

>>736319346
A world where the local alcoholic can have as much as a doctor or an engineer. No reward = no motivation.. and pro-communists are just angsty teenagers who haven't lived in communism.

>>736330102
yeah, communism would only work if there were a militarist lead that would ensure that there is no-one trying to break our society

>>736320055
No it wouldn't have.. if the US didn't intervene, it would just take longer for it to become venezuela.

>>736330601
actually communism would work if there were "storages" that had everything, and you could get what you needed, people need to change if they want change, If we ever want to go forward in technology we all have to work our hardest, also money is a capitalist construct that will fall eventually

>>736330786
Who builds these "storages"? Who or what decides what is stored? Who decides the priority by which one item is "needed" more than another item? The answers to these sorts of questions are what always results in the failure to establish "Communism".

>>736320055
I've been to Chile. I lived in Vina del Mar for a month. The people of Chile admired the ideals of Allende and see Pinochet as someone much worse, but the first was in power for only three years and it was already failing. The second led his country for seventeen years to become the most economically significant country in South America.

>>736324637

>Doesn't talk about the Native American genocide
>Doesn't talk about the Trans-atlantic Slave Trade
>Doesn't talk about the Bengal Famine
>Doesn't talk about the Irish Potato Famine
>Doesn't talk about the Contras.
>Doesn't talk about the Iraq War
>Doesn't talk about French Algeria
>Doesn't talk about Belgian Congo
>Doesn't talk about East Timor
>Doesn't talk about Bosnia
>Doesn't talk about Vietnam

>>736331053
robots, automatization is the first step in getting this dream to work. you order what you want it will be delivered there for you to collect

Communism = Planified Economy based on social development and social warfare.

Capitalism = Non Planified Economy based on profit that cause chaos on production.

>>736330481
I'm saying they're not real communists because you're misusing the label. The Khmer Rouge and all of that other stuff is Authoritarian Socialism, not communism.

>>736319121
They tried communism and it doesn't work.

>>736320055
So the economic system was unable to withstand a foreign entity
Clearly it would have worked. Dipshit

>>736320735
See? Capitalism wins.
Communism implies that humans don't have greed, which is inaccurate

>>736332537
I'm saying that people like you always have the cop out of calling failed Communists as "Authoritarian Socialists", etc. because "real" Communists don't exist. You can always play the "misusing" the label game. Because no one will ever have the label.

>>736332768
Where?

>>736319121
Every government that has implemented a Marxist philosophy in its government has ended in total failure.

The whole principle of Marxist philosophy, to its logical conclusion, ends up eating itself.

It needs an oppressed class and an oppressor. So the oppressed fight against the oppressor until they are defeated. What then? A new oppressor needs to become, and this most likely comes from the former oppressed.

Repeat ad nausium until the country is a hell on earth.

>>736331338
Someone has to program the robots to begin with. Robots and automation aren't magic. They are programmed by human beings. Enjoy your robot gulag.

>>736333494
You think I'm copping out when really I'm a language stickler, I detest communism but you really oughtta use the right labels to look like you know what you're talking about.

Good points hear.

Also, if all college education was free, the degrees would be worthless because everyone would have one. That point is worthless anyway, because true communism would mean no money, social class, or government, therefore public and private schooling would not exist.

The first pilgrims practiced a form of communal living, which is a loose version of Marxism. Almost all of them died the first winter....

>>736333919
You are doing an even worse cop out now by completely avoiding my argument. There is no "real" Communism. There will never be "real" Communism. "Real" Communism is impossible. Attempts to achieve "real" Communism always end in some sort of authoritarian or chaotic result. It's not about language. These regimes are the reality of Communism as it has existed on the planet. This "real" Communism as opposed to "Authoritarian Socialism" is an illusion. Authoritarian socialism IS the reality of Communism as it exists in the world. This other "real" Communism that you are talking about might as well be magic faeries or something.

Points for:
Leave's much room for human error
No one would be unhappy.
Production and work morale would go through the roof.
Lazy people would have a much better life.

Points against:
Always one execution from utopia.
Executes anyone who does not conform to their rules.
EXTREMELY hard to implement without people telling you to "fuck off and die"
No one would be happy.
Anyone who isn't Lazy will have a very unrewarding life.

Basically Happiness would be very mediocre.
Everyone who is a benefit to society will be unrewarded, for instance, a pot-smoking degenerate living in his mothers basement will make the exact same money as a cancer scientist, or a doctor.
But the extreme lower class (pot-smoking degenerates living in their mothers basement)
will have a grand fucking life compared to what they put in.

>>736335066
Authoritarian Socialism is the result of communist attempts, but it still isn't communism regardless of how feasible communism is. Why you're acting like I'm a communist though is beyond me, just learn your terminology fag.

>>736321887
work is shit

>>736335282
It is as Communist as Communism will ever be in this world. Socialism implemented by self styled Communists attempting to create some mythical "real" Communism is the absolute reality of Communism in this world. Saying it isn't Communism because it isn't 100% the end state of theoretical Communism is an absurd rhetorical dodge.

I never said you were a Communist. But you are using the same type of cop out that many Communists use when they say "real communism has never been tried".

juden
juden everywhere!

>>736336038
Fuck off to /pol/

i like shitposting

Not a single one of you cucks gets Marxist communism. The idea is that collective ownership fed by a strong community oriented ethic prevents the exploitation of the worker by the capitalist. It's more akin to what people know now as "socialism." Strongmen forcing command economies in non-democratic ways is what most people recognize as "communism," even tho democracy is one of the foundational tenets of "true" Marxism.

The reason it doesn't work is because capitalism is a psychic system that reinforces individualist behaviors that prevent progress for society. The capitalists used the psychic advantage they gained from hundreds of years of reinforcement (protestant ethic, vertical hierarchies, etc.) to create a system where money rules, and then used that system to exploit the worker and gain more money (and this power). This allows them to maintain control.

>>736335999
No, it's just factually incorrect. Read bastard, read.

surprise surprise
the retard is still here!

>>736326840
The problem also occurs when you start defining what constitutes a bad apple in ideological terms. The devil's in the details.

>>736319121
Communism may be inevitable, but only in a post scarcity world. Once people are able to get whatever they want, then communism may be the best (or perhaps only) way to rule from an economic perspective. However, the only 'real' communism is what we'd call anarcho-communism today. Everyone would end up being equal, and nobody would have power over another. Bear in mind this would only be possible once anyone can get whatever they want. If this ever happens, which it may not, the world will be a very different place to what it is today to the point people won't be able to relate to the struggles we face today. To be clear I am not a communist and despise the idea of living under communism or even socialism. Because of the fact we are in a world of scarcity, the only way communism can be enacted causes huge oppression of the people. I do think it is a strong possibility that communism may end up working and being successful in the distant future.