Can you justify harming, killing or otherwise exploiting an animal

I fucking love bacon-wrapped filet mignon. I also like to imagine, as I eat it, the last thoughts of the animals as they're executed for my culinary pleasure. Their deaths add something of an exquisite "aphrodesiac" effect to my meal.

Can you justify harming, killing or otherwise exploiting a plant in a scenario where it is not necessary? For example, to eat a Garden Veggie Burger when you could have a Philly Cheese steak instead?

Is it possible on an ethical or logical basis to treat a plant this way?

Another question for you: if it's because of sentience, the ability to feel and suffer that we ascribe moral value to the life of a human being, and because of this it becomes unethical to harm a human being without proper justification, how then, can you justify harming a plant without proper justification?

What is the trait not present in human beings, which is present in an a plant, which allows you to remain ethically consistent and still harm that plant? What is the key difference that justifies, for example, a pint of plant milk?

If you can come up with an answer to any of these dilemmas, you will have done what I have never seen done before: ethically justified not being an Alpha Mammal in 2017. Even Colonel Sanders has admitted it isn't possible.

tl;dr I eat plants because I can't hear them scream

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>>732235348
>logical

>>732235769
Plants don't have feelings. Also:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

>>732235348
I have no problem killing an animal and consuming its carcus to satisfy my hunger, can you tell me if you where stuck out in the wild with no food where you would ramble your self a veggie burger from?

I can't wait until it's conclusively proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that plants can feel pain - so OP and other vegans are force to eat rocks.

>>732235981
The thread isn't discussing eating animals out of necessity. I would eat an animal if I had to. I'm talking about in 2017 when you shop in a supermarket and have the internet.

>>732235348
I can justify killing you for no other reason then sacrificing your body and soul to fill me with lust before a giant orgy. Obviously, I would prefer a female Virgin but something about a challenge makes it more fun.

>>732236075
Plants contain essential nutrition for human beings, animals do not. Animals clearly feel immense pain, plants even if they did feel pain, are nowhere near as sentient as a vertebrate.

Therefore, being a vegan would still be logically consistent. Also, to eat animals, you feed them plants.

>>732235941
>Plants don't have feelings.
Did you ask the plants this? Or are you an equivalent of a Nazi claiming Jews had no feelings? You're a fucking sick piece of shit. All those plants you devour and refuse to acknowledged their feelings. What kind of psychotic person does that? I'll tell you the kind: the kind that posts in threads pushing their sick self righteous agenda on those who refuse to be beta mammals. Choke on a cucumber you green faggot

>>732236125
It's an illogical position to hold unless you're saying morality is subjective. In which case, I can justify feeding you to your own family.

>>732236217
Like I said, eating plants is the lesser of the two evils, and is essential to health. Eating animals isn't essential. You clicked on the thread and posted on it, I didn't force you to do anything.

You're using really retarded logic anon.

>>732236195
>this is what mentally ill vegans tell themselves, to avoid eating rocks

I am disappoint

>>732235769
kek

Idgaf

>>732236334
>Says plants have no feelings
>thinks logic is retarded

Thy name is vegan green fag

>>732235348
>Is it possible on an ethical or logical basis to treat an animal this way?
Nope. But you're in a place that glorifies suicide, racism and child molestation, sooooo, good luck with this thread lad.

>>732236217
>Did you ask the plants this?
Oh look, it's this comment again, how very original.

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>>732236618

>>732235348
Because animals taste good. Fuck you and your ethics. Human is the masterrace and we can do anything we want to other species.

>>732235348
I just watched a video summarising the book "how not to die" to see if the book were a good purchase, immediately When I came here I see this thread.

Anyway, I don't think morals/ethics is a good enough argument to convince someone to change their habits. It sounds fucked up, but I think it's true. Say someone watches a slaughterhouse video and decides then and there they won't eat animal products again. They will know little about nutrition and won't be able to implement their new lifestyle appropriately.

>>732236535
Was just curious what kind of response I'd get from you lot.

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>>732235348
I started the vegetarian (not fully-vegan) diet for health and weight-loss, but the more I learned about the meat industry, the less and less I wanted to continue eating meat, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else. It is pretty fucked up what the lesser animals go through just so we can be 'full' for a few hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI

>>732236778
Only because you can doesn't mean you should, thats the question you dumbfuck.

>>732236195
>animals do not contain essential nutrition
But that's 100% demonstrably false, you fucking mongoloid.

>>732236809
Different approaches work for different people. Some people don't give a shit about health and nutrition so wouldn't be convinced by a health-based argument, but might empathise with an animal. Someone might not give a shit about animals but wouldn't want to drink pus, hormones, antibiotics, blood and feces in cow milk.

>>732236824
>plants have feels too!!!
And other retarded drivel. Honestly not worth your time.

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Eating plants literally kills the earth and humans since plants produce oxygen.

Vegans are literally killing us and the planet for their shitty self-righteousness.

>>732236829
>preview shows some smug cunt smiling at the camera

I don't think so - if I'm to watch a narration about animals and their "feelings", I'm not going to see some bitch attention-whoring it to me

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>>732235348

>>732236902
What can you get from an animal that you can't get from plants or otherwise nature? How do you reconcile vegans who, at most, take a B12 supplement due to not being able to get B12 in the modern world, due to sterilised water?

>>732236093
I feel it is necessary to keep my quality of life high enough to make it worth. So, yes, I devour animals because I can.

>>732235348
yes. next stupid question.

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>>732237031

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>>732237023
Don't judge a YouTube vid by its thumbnail. Changed my life, and it's not just about the 'feelings' of lesser animals.

>Don't judge a book by it's cover, but no one reads anymore.

>>732237085
nice argument

>>732237046
I can use the same logic to justify raping women, children and dogs because it makes life worth it.

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>>732237090

>>732235348
You're fucking stupid, bro

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>>732235348
End of discussion

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>>732237090

>>732235348
I'm just as much of an animal as the rest of the other animals are.
Why am I not allowed to act like other animals and eat the animals and vegetables I like?
I wouldn't eat McDonalds though, that is shitty food.

>>732236902
You're making the claim we need to eat animals. (Positive claim = positive evidence. Eating animals is not a 'default' position but a specific action that you claim is necessary.) Can you provide any externsive evidence that animals contain something that cannot be gained from other means? Especially from modern farmed animals sans injections using plant/algae-based supplements?

Literally the only thing that cannot be gained from a vegan diet in a large amount (B12 -CAN- be gained from food, there are many herbs that you can grow in your own garden or can be grown in the soil mixture of plants to provide additional b12) is l-carnithine. Even this CAN be gained, levels in vegans vs omnivores are not that much lower, but lower enough that it is worth supplementing.

Are you really suggesting that because somebody cannot be bothered to take a pill or two every week, we must massacre millions of self-aware beings capable of feeling pain?

Are you a satanist by any chance?

>>732237103
FUCK bitches.

>>732235348
because we were naturally born to eat both meats and vegetables just like a pack of wild dogs will have no problem eating a baby infant or a 90 year old lady.

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>>732237188
dub chek

>>732235348

>Another question for you: if it's because of sentience, the ability to feel and suffer that we ascribe moral value to the life of a human being, and because of this it becomes unethical to harm a human being without proper justification, how then, can you justify harming an animal without proper justification?
justification for harming a human: he thinks differently from the norm, or worships another god
justification for harming an animal: he's made of food, or has something we need (leather, wool...) or parts of its genetics are close enough to humans that we can use them to test medicine that could save your kid or clean the world without having to experiment on humans

>What is the trait not present in human beings, which is present in an animal, which allows you to remain ethically consistent and still harm that animal? What is the key difference that justifies, for example, a pint of cow's milk?
bitch i'd drink a pint of tit milk if i could find a cute lactating girl
also, milking doesn't hurt cows/goats...
and it's something that's absent: an affective link or thoughts. I'd eat some random human (assuming i'm 100% sure it's clean) but i wouldn't eat my dog, catch what i'm saying?

>>732236835
No better alternative currently. If I can substitute my animal diet with plants which taste better and more nutritious, I would fucking do it.

>>732235348
ITT: Vegans VS Anons that don't know how to form logical arguments.

>>732237245
>why am i not allowed cus others are doing it hurdur

All the other cool kids are smoking crack, why shouldn't I?!?!

You are not a lion, you do not require raw/living flesh to survive. You are a necrophagic scavenger, a strategy adopted in times of famine.

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>>732237272

>>732235348
Obviously a city boy whose never raised his own food. A vegan would expend more energy growing his food than he would be able to recover eating it.

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>>732237263
Yes, but watch the video first.

>>732237352
being vegan is supposed to be logical? lmao.

>>732237245
Also before you ask me why I don't eat humans, too much risk of disease.

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>>732237352

>>732235348
i'll bite this avarage bait
>Is it possible on an ethical or logical basis to treat an animal this way?
yes. animals are grown for meat. it is their purpose in this world. to become our food. we have selectivly bred them to have more meat/fat, to produce better tasting milk etc.

>>732237270
A dog can be vegan you dolt, it's a matter of opportunity and choice. (A cat can't because it is an actual carnivore)

"naturally born to"

No, examine your teeth. Examine your own fucking colon. We are frugivores who occasionally eat bugs. In modern times there is no need for the bugs unless you're fucking poor.

We are also "naturally" born to be naked, does that mean we shouldn't wear clothes? We're also "naturally" born being irrational insufferable little pricks, should parents then not train them to be nicer?

>>732237408
But why are you holding me to a separate standard if animals are supposedly our equals?
Also on a more serious note, I have a chronic disease that makes it hard for me to absorb nutrients. If I were to live on a vegan diet, I would have to use 18 hours each day eating broccoli or other such protein rich vegetables just to function.

>>732237270
Stop eating meat for 60 days straight and then try to eat it, you'll feel like shit because it's not natural. We did way back there, when were starving fucking savages

>>732236829
Don't have to deal with the meat industry if you go hunt your own. Fuck all of you, I hunt for my own venison, hog, Turkey, etc. I buy very little meat from the store, maybe a ribeye steak every now and then because I can't go shoot a cow legally. Proper hunting techniques are ethical, cause the animal less pain, and prevent over-population of certain species which is necessary for the environment as a whole. Fuck you vegans and you're "all meat is bad cuz I know better than you"

>>732235348
I'm not a vegan, but I do agree it's the most ethical thing to do. I also think it's more logical than eating meat. Pretty much the only thing preventing me is the high prices of some of these vegan meat replacements. Also their lack of availability. And cheese. I fucking love cheese, and the mock cheese is absolutely disgusting and nothing like cheese at all.

>>732237606
Your*

>>732236093
No this is what this thread boils down to at its most basic level and since you have admitted that given no choice & circumstance that you would eat meat then you are not a vegan your just picky

REEEEEEEEEEEE
reeeeeeeeeeeeee
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>732237023
shes a qt tho

>>732237528
a frugivore is a mix of a herb and a carn

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>>732237606
>go hunt your own
Great, and everyone goes to do that, and we have a redux of what we faced mid-1900s with the white-tailed deer in North America.

But no thanks, I'd rather grow my own food in a sustainable environment. Meat actually *is* bad for you regardless of where it comes from; it's just a matter of *how* bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKp8-X1zZqo

>>732237833
hunting helps animals in alot of ways
>helps biodiversaty
>controled populations
>they live in the wild rather than some farm
and the meat tastes better

>>732237270
Appeal to nature fallacy.
>>732237303
I'm not asking if you can justify harming animals to save lives. I'm asking if you can justify harming animals when you don't need to.

Uh, drinking milk definitely hurts cows and goats. It's for their calves, not humans, for a kickoff. But yeah, I understand why you would give your dog more value than a random human. That doesn't justify killing the human though.

>>732237270
>we were naturally born to eat both meats and vegetables
Oh is that why we have to cook our meat first? Gee really made me think.

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>>732238078
Yeah, but there are more people now, and if everyone decided to go hunting for their food, it'd cause much more damage to the environment and the populations (of the lesser animals) than help.

A person should learn to grow and stockpile their food, leaving the lesser animals alone.

>>732238133
Want to address this >>732237577?
Also I can post youtube videos too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5colxiIDCA

Just within a physical context, and I hope I can say this correctly, the entire balance in the known universe hinges on devouring and producing. In order for one to survive, one must devour and reproduce in order to thrive. So, eating meat, vegetables, fruit, and grains ultimately is part of the nature we must live through for our own means of survival. There is not a wrong or right way to kill an animal. There is only the end result of doing so for a purpose. There is no wrong or right way for an extermination of plants. There is only an end result. Everything is hostile. Everything is devouring something else to move forward. That's why this entire vegan vs. meat-eater debate is fairly old.

I do find it hilarious though that vegan cadavers will one day be meat for something when they rot.

>>732235348
We evolved to eat meat, it's that simple. Morality and ethics is a purely human concept that is based in emotional bullshit. The mere fact that you argue about the "morality" of eating animals is just a display of your privilege.

If it makes you feel better to be a vegan then go ahead, but don't go shove it down other peoples throats or walk around feeling all superior. All it means is that you are a slave to your emotions.

I cant justify it no but most my meat and eggs come from our animals. They live pretty awesome lives until we eat them. Lets just say if we dont eat them another animal will. I've had goats killed by dogs, chickens killed by racoons skunks and hawks. And im sure a hungry bear would kill and eat you if it saw you. Not justified but its nature. Most people forget we are part of the food chain too. I guess what I mean is i don't need to justify nature. If we were vegitarian animals we'd probably be too stuipid still to be even having this discussion. Guess my justification is were the dominant species for a reason

>>732237478
So assigning purpose to something and breeding it that way ethically justifies harming it?
We can genetically breed women to be perfect for getting raped, and systematically rape them, and that's fine? How far would you extend the logic of "bred for the purpose"
>>732237654
Fair enough. I'm personally an ethical vegan but I try to eat for optimal health, so I don't eat any of the veggie burgers and shit out of choice.

>>732238232
what you cant cook faggot? we are not carnivores remember.

Last I checked my life isn't about min-maxing on garden vegetables. Also the question OP is less about what traits an animal has that a human doesn't, it's more about what traits a human has that an ANIMAL doesn't. Basically animals aren't my fellow humans so I'll eat the shit outa them. They lack the consciousness that humans have. So I eat them.

>>732237041
>What can you get from an animal that you can't get from plants or otherwise nature?
The delicious taste of meat? The money i don't have to spend on vitamin supplements?
>>732237260
>You're making the claim we need to eat animals.
No, I was saying the claim that animals contain no essential nutrition is bullshit.

Really the nutrition issue doesn't even matter to me, I eat meat because it tastes good, and having to give it up would lower my QOL.
>Are you really suggesting that because somebody cannot be bothered to take a pill or two every week, we must massacre millions of self-aware beings capable of feeling pain?
it's more like billions of sombodies can't be bothered (or dont have access) to take pills every week, but pretty much yeah. There will always be someone willing to slaughter animals for the profit no matter how the majority views animal rights, so there's no point in me trying to go vegan to make some sort of moral stand, when it would be hypocritical of me to do so since i clearly enjoy eating meat. Not a satanist though, just an agnostic who raised catholic.

>>732238133
> drinking milk definitely hurts cows and goats
actually NOT milking cows and goats hurts the animals
try breastfeeding and tell me you're not releved when that baby has emptyd your painful sacks of liquid

i bet you think eating eggs is wrong too

>>732235348
I don't have to justify it

>>732237577
kek

>>732238465
Is it ethical for an alien to eat you?

Or are you a CUCK who believes might makes right?

>>732238232
you have to cook vegatables too faggot

>>732238377
>Life is shit
>therefore make it extraly shit, unnecessarily, because it's edgy

Families often argue, so why not beat your kids? XDDD Life is pain anyway XDDDdddddddddddddddddd

>>732238454
>I don't eat any of the veggie burgers and shit out of choice.
I agree that would be the best thing to do. I guess I'm just addicted. I eat a lot less meat than I used to before I realized the vegan logic, but still. I have a lot of respect for vegans, maybe one day I'll find the strength to join you.

>>732238589
The fuck has ethics got to do with it?

>>732236334
The guy who posted that is another obese Amerilard. I'm contemplating going vegan for my well being. I wish it'd have an impact on the animals well being but I can't control that.

>>732238317
well growing food is all well and good but if you want a healthy and balaced diet than meat is essential

>>732238384
Your teeth are frugivorous
Your colon is for vegetation
You cannot digest raw meat like a big cat does
You will not die without meat

You did not evolve to eat meat.

if you want to eat it, fine. Just admit you place the value of the animals suffering beneath your own. That is the only reason.

>>732238662
I think you missed the point entirely and have placed meaning outside of the realm of this discussion, friend.

>>732238613
No you don't, retard. It's a lot better when you do, sure, but most vegetables can be eaten raw perfectly fine.

>>732235348
Plants feel pain too. This is scientific fact. The only difference between a vegan and a regular (normal) person is the vegan tells them self it's okay because they can't hear a cry from the plant like you would the slaughtered animal. Outnofnsight out of mind. Basically vegans brace ignorance and just want people to be like them. Fuck a vegan.

>>732237429

OP doesn't understand how wasteful and inefficient vegans are
OP might have had a proper argument if hadn't gone full retard and only said vegetarian

Meat production could be better organised for sure:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation
but vegans getting their protein beans shipped half way around the world is grossly inefficient too

>>732238374
So for the animal standards. Animals don't have a conception of ethics and morality. I hold humans to standards of logic and reason because they can understand them. Animals act primarily on instinct, so I'm not going to attempt to explain animal rights to a lion.

As for bizarre medical issues, if eating other animals is the only way for you to have optimal health, I won't hold it against you. This thread is more for people who could go vegan but choose not to.
>>732238377
Okay, but we're talking about doing the least amount of harm possible in order to be as moral as possible, not saying morals are subjective, and that everything dies anyway so fug it.
>>732238384
Saying ethics is subjective is a poorly thought out answer to an ethical question.

I'm not trying to be superior or force anything on people. I'm debating on a thread you have every right to click away from. Keep yourself here if you want to.

>>732238464
lolwat? Of course I can cook...? How else would I be eating meat? Have you always been this dumb?

>>732237577
I'm neither a) holding you to a separate standard nor b) saying animals are your equals

I am saying that you
1) Do not require meat to live (like a carnivore does)
and that
2) Causing unnecessary suffering is not a good thing

These two points are undeniable. Either admit you place the value of 10 seconds of mouth-taste over the life of an entire suffering, thinking being, or continue lying to yourself. It's okay, none of us are perfect.

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>>732238741
It really isn't. Everything you get from meat (except maybe B12), you can get from fruits, veggies, nuts, and grains.

>>732238742
>Your colon is for vegetation
Nope, it's way too short to be called vegetarian
>You cannot digest raw meat like a big cat does
We can digest raw meat just fine, many cultures still do today.

>>732238768
you can eat a steak raw, sure It's a lot better when you cook it, but most beef can be eaten raw perfectly fine.

>>732238784
>Plants feel pain too. This is scientific fact.
No, it's something you made up and you think it's really clever even though it is not.

>>732237654
You don't need "meat replacements". Try just eating food. There's approximately 1000 gorillion varities of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds. If you have such ADHD that you can't be bothered to experiment and so continue massacring other creatures, you're a literal psychopath.

>>732238907
>you can eat a steak raw
I'd love to see you try.

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>>732235941
Plant's respond to stimuli. They can feel, they just have complex emotional ability. Like bugs or chickens.

>>732238957
And holier than though vegans like you are another reason.

>>732235348
>veggie burger

No.

>>732235348
>What is the trait not present in human beings, which is present in an animal, which allows you to remain ethically consistent and still harm that animal? What is the key difference that justifies, for example, a pint of cow's milk?
It's called sapience, you fucking moron.

>>732238484
Watch dairy is scary. Also, in the egg industry baby male chicks serve no purpose so they are ground up alive or gassed to death on their first day of life.
>>732238728
Supply and demand. Every person who goes vegan weakens the industry. The dairy industry has lost 5% of the market to plant milks over recent years and has been trying real hard to spin propaganda in the media recently. They're getting scared and it's only a matter of time. You should start now. Watch Forks Over Knives on netflix if you want the scoop on the health benefits and disease prevention side of it.

>>732235348
So long as there are slaughter house, there will be battlefields

>>732238959
>I'd love to see you try.
this faggot hasnt had steak tartare

>>732238976
And it's still more ethical to eat plants if that's the case, which it isn't.

I can't believe how many retards actually think plants have feelings. I've even spoken to people who were legitimately triggered because a dude made his venus flytrap smoke a cigarette.

>>732238879
But if a cow spends most of it's day, in a fenced in grassland, in the assured knowledge that no predator will come and eat it alive, am I not reducing animal suffering instead of increasing it?
A cows version of happiness is ample food and getting to hang out with it's best cow friend. Free range cow farmers provide them with that.
I'm just as against battery farms as any vegan, but I refuse to be guilted for providing a cow with a safe environment to eat grass and hang out with other cows before I eat it.

>>732238904
I can also drink bleach and survive
Is this good for me?

More importantly, is it necessary?

Our bodies are 100% adapted to eating the following:

Fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, insects

Not even grains, let alone the milk of other animals nor their flesh. They can be tolerated, but it is not our evolutionary niche. We are vegetarians who are capable of scavenging meat for survival. Most people today are not desperately scrabbling for survival and so having to shoot a monkey out of a tree.

The point is, meat is not necessary. Therefore the only reason it is eaten is because you value 10 seconds of taste over your long term resistant to cancer and heart disease and the suffering of the being in question.

How would you like it if an alien started farming your children because it considered you too different to care, even though you were capable of feeling pain? Do you really place the minds of animals so low as to think they are emotionless, painless automatons?

Just admit it, you think meat tastes nice and you don't want to have to think too deeply into the consequences of your actions.

>>732239112
Ok, fair enough, instead of cooking you can also cut it up with a knife and not your hands. Point still remains, you're not eating a raw piece of meat without either cooking it or using tools to replace your plant eating teeth.

>>732235348
Meat tastes good, it is filling, and it is a good source of protein for my sexy muscles. Also I don't give a fuck about killing and eating animals, as long as they are treated humanely. I generally buy the free range expensive meat/milk/poultry/eggs and I feel just fine about it.

>>732239004
"I refuse to not kill others because people keep telling me I'm bad for killing others"

You think that's an argument, or just evidence of literal insanity?

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>>732235348
I got a little ban for doing a vegan thread the world is against us OP

I couldn't possibly afford to live a life without meat.

Meat is excruciatingly cheap in comparison to fruits and veggies of a compairable nutritional value.

Meats also produce various chemical reactions that stimulate endorphin release making the process more enjoyable.

To put it bluntly, if I was a vegan, or even just a vegetarian, maintaining balanced nutrition would be costly, time consuming and less satisfying than simply eating meat.

I live off of like 12 grand a year.
Maybe I'll give up meat when I'm making 40.

>>732239071
>Also, in the egg industry baby male chicks serve no purpose so they are ground up alive or gassed to death on their first day of life.

so?
9 times out of 10 those chicks get turned into fertiliser so your precious plants can live.

>>732239256
It's one of a couple of reasons I'm not trying harder to better myself. For some reason when annoying people annoyingly tell me to do things I'm less willing to actually do them.

>>732238742
Among our teeth there are ones that are "designed" to cut meat, we can digest raw meat, it's just more effective to cook it first (and healthier) and you can keep a big cat alive without meat in it's diet.

Humans are omnivores which didn't happen by accident.

So again, you are a slave to your emotions, I'm not.

>>732235348
because i have an actual full time job and dont have the time to watch my diet every 30 mins plus you also need to add the fact that you wont get b12 or vitamin d3 etc.

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>>732235348

>>732239201
No i specifically mean that chickens, most fish, and ALL insects lack the ability for complex though or emotions.

Like plants.

I accidentally worded my comment deceptively.

>>732239238
Can I humanely kill you and eat you? How would I do that? Can I do it with your whole family? Oh, you don't want me to? Well, I'm hungry and you look like you would taste like bacon.

>>732239202
Giving them a better life than in the wild doesn't justify killing them.

So I could stop a guy from brutally raping a woman in an alleyway. And then I could also rape her, but use minimal violence and inflict as little harm on her as possible. I've given her a better alternative, but it does not justify me raping her.

Just like you can break up the rape and then choose not to rape the woman, you can give an animal a better life than out in the wild without killing them for food.

I'm not asking for a better alternative to what would happen in the wild: I'm asking for logical justification for what we're doing to them now.

>>732239256
If people like you didn't exist I probably would feel worse about eating meat. So, thanks I guess for providing something to hate more than eating animals.

fucking nigger op kill yourself

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>>732239236
>plant eating teeth

ok mate

>>732239317
Rice is the cheapest thing on the market along with pasta. Meat is actually expensive by comparison. Also, try drugs if you want to stimulate your mind.

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>>732239489

>>732238882
B12 is still needed, with too little B12 your nervesystem can be damaged.
choose one

>it really isn't
>it really is

>>732239204
Your argument seems to be entirely about what is necessary but life isn't necessary so why don't you kill yourself?

>>732239238
I'm not trying to guilt trip you, just posing the question. If you feel guilty then that's for you to work through snowflake.
>>732239386
You could make time. B12 from soil and D from the sun. Or just supplement them. I'm not asking you to do anything practically, I'm asking about the strict logic/ethics involved.

>>732239204
What the fuck are you talking about humans have forward facing eyes. We are born predators.

We most certainly started as vegetarians, but we evolved to predators.

Like every other predator ever dumbass.

>>732239544
Yep, again, please try eating a raw steak and tell me those teeth are made for tearing flesh from dead animals. I wish you luck.

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>>732239544
You are literally retarded.

pic related

>>732239676
gorillas are omnivores cunt

>>732239544
kek I'm not even vegan, but mate, you're being retarded with this one.

>>732239618
>Animals are given B12
>eats animals because of B12
>could just take B12 supplement

>>732239434
That doesn't mean you can justify causing them harm if you don't need to.

>>732239470
But a cows natural way of being is hanging out in grassland with other cows.
Are you seriously going to claim that a womans natural state is being raped by men?
At least humans kill cows quickly before they eat them.
Let me ask you a question then, if we are to stop making products out of animals, what purpose would they serve in order for us to keep them alive?
We've bred them to be domestic since farming began and before we knew what the repercussions would be.
They're creatures of our creation basically and if you remove their reason for existing, you won't have animals who end up in a short spurt of suffering, you'll have animals that we intentionally made extinct because we had no use for them anymore.

>>732235348
I eat McDonalds instead of a veggie burger because veggie burgers don't taste as good nor do they give you a murder boner.

>>732239204
>I can also drink bleach and survive
Heh, not even an argument anon, that's rubbish.

>Our bodies are 100% adapted to eating the following:
>Fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, insects
Fruits, partially - most fruits give us diarrhea if eaten as a primary source and we aren't adapted to seeds at all, if we don't process them with our teeth they pass our digestive tract untouched - same with grains. Plenty of true vegetarian animals have processes in place to get around this within their guts like multiple stomachs and gut stones.
Insects - You're defeating the premise of your claim here, we digest insects just fine, like we digest other sources of meat just fine.
Milk - Plenty of people are actually adapted to eating milk/dairy, evinced by the fact that people from certain cultural backgrounds generally aren't able to consume it effectively.

>The point is, meat is not necessary.
Nothing we eat is necessary in modern terms, we could exist as a race on algae and bacterial farms but that's as retarded as your emotive argument.
See
>How would you like it if an alien started farming your children because it considered you too different to care

>Just admit it, you think meat tastes nice and you don't want to have to think too deeply into the consequences of your actions.
I'm quite cognizant of the consequences of my actions, I hunt plenty of the meat I eat, this doesn't make me feel bad about eating meat.

>>732239434
>complex though or emotions
That's a very meaningless statement without defining the quoted part.

Yes, I can, i was probably hungry.

>>732239754
Gorillas are herbivores you cunt. The 3% of their diet that isn't plant-based is insects. Fucking retards man I swear...

>>732239778
where is B12 harvested from?

>>732239882
nice dubs

Factory farming is inarguably problematic. It pollutes the earth worse than transportation, filled with disease, reduces the effects of antibiotics, and has shown to be detrimental to the human psyche. If that infrastructure gets dismantled, then the price of meat will sky rocket. People won't be able to afford it, because field grazing animals can't grow, and reproduce fast enough. People will eat little meat at some point, and it's already on a decline.

>>732239676
They aren't cutting teeth, they're for display and dominance, plenty of animals which are purely vegetarian have "fangs", there are fucking deer with fangs like that.

>>732239570
And it eould be an excruciatingly unsatisfying meal. A pound of meat costs me roughly 3$ and can be made into 2-3 meals, a pount of just rice costs me a dollar for 2 meals, sure, however what else? Eating a bowl of fucking rice would make me off myself within a month or die from nutritional deprivation

>>732239771
how?
canines are for tearing flesh

>>732239754
No, they are not.

>>732239869
It's called an analogy

If you don't understand a simple analogy, and that analogies are used as part of argumentation when the other person lacks the deductive reasoning skills to figure it out themselves then I pity you.

>Eating X doesn't kill me immedaitely
>Therefore I am required to eat X

THAT is what is not an argument

Once again:

The only reason to eat meat is if you place 10 seconds of pleasure over the wellbeing of another creature.

That is literally it.

>>732235348
Use facts like how meat eating animals have claws and jagged teeth to help them tear through meat. How about the fact that animals don't cook their meat they eat it raw(which our systems don't support).

>>732240013
I understand analogy, I simply didn't recognise your pos attempt at one.
>The only reason to eat meat is if you place 10 seconds of pleasure over the wellbeing of another creature.
So you keep claiming

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>>732240044
No no its not!!!

>>732239982
Lol okay mate, if you say so.

>>732239897
>>732240012
SOME gorillas are herbivores
Most are omnivores

>>732239821
Appeal to nature fallacy. Also, killing or stealing milk from a cow isn't necessarily natural and isn't justified unless you really need to.

My personal opinion? I don't think in this day and age we need animals to serve the purpose of food. We're gonna gradually move away from eating them and start eating a wholefoods, plant-based diet with little to no animal products.

Again, just because they might go extinct, that doesn't justify hurting, killing or raping them. It's not our imperative to keep them alive.

Antinatalism is a thing a few people here should research.

>>732239905
>where is B12 harvested from?

No fungi, plants, or animals (including humans) are capable of producing vitamin B12. Only bacteria and archaea have the enzymes needed for its synthesis. Some substantial sources of B12 include animal products (shellfish, meat), fortified food products, and dietary supplements.[2][3] B12 is the largest and most structurally complicated vitamin and can be produced industrially only through bacterial fermentation synthesis, typically used to manufacture B12 for fortified foods and supplements.

wikipedia fuckwit. vegan B12 is clearly available

Humans are omnivores that adapted to a massive variety of environments and thus diets. A group like the inuit consumes almost 100% meat and seafood, and traditionally were very healthy for it.

Also, ethically, there is a huge difference between having say a grassfed free range cow that is slaughtered after living a natural life grazing and being allowed to reproduce vs once that is stuffed in a pen and force fed corn to fatten up.
Meat and seafood can be very healthy, it depends on the type and how its consumed. Good quality organ meat is some of the most nutritious food available to humans.

It can also ruin your fucking health going vegan without knowing exactly what you are doing and taking the right supplements. Meat is the only 100% complete source of protein, with all the amino acids in the one food.

Stop watching some faggot ass vegan documentary online and then acting like an expert. Forks over knives is bullshit, there are lots of things wrong and left out to push a vegan agenda.

The government wants you to become vegan eventually because it makes people more docile, literally less manly and more like cattle.
There is nothing wrong with meat, all the real scientific and historical evidence as well as our anatomy show we are omnivores, do best on meat and veggies, and can adapt widely to a huge variety of diets.
Fuck you OP

>>732240171
You are objectively wrong though.

>What is the trait not present in human beings, which is present in an animal, which allows you to remain ethically consistent and still harm that animal?

We have the same traits, OP. I can eat animal and animal can eat me. But I'm an apex predator, so I'm the one doing the eating in the overwhelming majority of situations. But I don't give animals grief for eating people, even though I think that people are more important than animals.

>>732235348
I cant'. I just don't care

>>732239943
>dubs

kys

>>732239630
Were is our claws and jagged teeth?

>>732239982
see
>>732239676

>>732240018
Don't be retarded anon, we process raw meat just fine. Cooking, like chewing simply makes it easier to extract nutrients from it, it helps break down the structures within the meat, just like it does for grain etc. Plenty of cultures have done and do eat raw meat as a basic part of their diet.

>>732240018
Our system does you moron, that's why we have a gallbladder. We literally have an organ with the sole purpose of breaking down fats from our foods.

That organ was developed to help digest raw meats and kill bacteria.

The reason we don't eat raw meat any more is the same reason we wear shoes you mong, it's a fucking safety precaution.

Also cooked meats help reduce the fat/protein ratio which is why our gall bladders are smaller by comparison to carnivores.

>>732235348
eat or be eaten. it's nature.
try to convince an alligator to not eat you. see how that works out.

>>732235348
listen you God damn pussy. humans are omnivorous. that's a fact . we are designed to eat meat . if you choose to eat the same things that the animals I eat also consume then great for you . your going to be a beta in human society for ever. week fuck. stop peddling your bull shit on others just because you choose to be a pussy. you old fag .

>>732240400
Please go kill something and eat it raw. Post results.

>>732240233

No he isn't, educate yourself and stop spreading disinformation

>>732240357
Where is a catfishes claws or jagged teeth.

>>732239630
>we evolved to predators like every other predator ever
kek, you don't know a lot do you?

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>>732235348
Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

>>732238742
>you cannot dugest raw meat like a big cat does

And a big cat doesnt have opposible thumbs and hasnt mastered fire, fracking, or nuclear fusion used to power and manipulate a fucking cooking area to cook the meat.

COOKING. Or as its better described
>pre-digestion before mastication

>>732240470
>that's a fact
>provides no citation

kys faggot

inb4 pseudoscience article by retard doctor

>>732240498
>educate yourself
>gorrillas are omnivores
Oh the irony

>>732240262
So do you think it's morally consistent to replicate all animal behaviour? As in, lions eating their own cubs because they're hungry? So I can eat my own kids? I can eat someone else's kids?

>>732240221
Holy shit. I wasn't wanting to go into nutrition but you're retarded. Go on cronometer and start plugging in foods like hemp, quinoa, brown rice, black beans, lentils etc and you'll find that they're all complete proteins. Not only are they complete, but if they weren't, it's very easy for them to become complete by combining other foods.

Animals contain cholesterol and saturated fat, the only risk factor for heart disease and alzheimers.

The government wants people to be vegan? Is that why the government heavily subsidises the meat, dairy and egg industries, and recommends we eat these products as healthy staples in our diets? Stop being a retard.

>>732240189
I really do need to, I'm the guy with the disease that inhibits nutrition intake.
Cows are bred to have more milk than their calfs can drink. I've got family who run an mostly automated organic free range cattle farm.
The cows basically walk into a milking machine voluntarily, get milked and get some malt tablets in return. Their calves are only separated from them when they are ready to be weaned, which would happen naturally at that time. These cows basically associate humans with being patted and scratched behind their ears. Then they go to a professional slaughter house, where they are in pain for about 1.5 seconds and then divided into cuts.
I really fail to feel sorry about eating an organism who has had such a happy life.
I'm not saying it's right because it's natural, I'm saying if we are gonna eat them, at least give them a good life first.

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>>732239630
See this. Humans are in between. Just go with moderation. I eat meat maybe 6 times a year and I Don't miss it fact of the matter is we are a growing race running out of space and veggies can be most cost effective since it takes much more Land to raise beef than potatoes

There can be many reasons. People hunt bears because they have no natural predator. People hunt deer due to overpopulation (not to mention they cause a lot of car crashes)

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>>732240473
Why would I do that anon? I don't like the taste of raw meat and being human I have the ability to cook my food which enhances flavour, smell and the nutrient extraction of food.

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We all die, and we all suffer one way or the other. The strong dominate the weak.
Also, steak is fucking amazing, and I'll be damned if a pansy vegan will take my Freddy's Frozen Custard and Steakburgers away from me.

>>732240449
Okay, nature. Cannibalism was a part of human nature, just like rape, infanticide, genocide, etc. Gimme your address, I'm coming for that ass boi.

>>732240610
That picture is wrong and retarded, predators have forward facing eyes, with space between them for depth perception.

>>732240636
>using a knife
thanks for proving our point dummy

>>732240569
>Animals contain cholesterol and saturated fat, the only risk factor for heart disease and alzheimers.
Heart disease has a nger correlation to high sugar diets than high fat diets.

>>732235348
PLANTS HAVE FEELINGS TOO!
WHY ARE YOU KILLING ALL THESE PLANTS JUST TO EAT THEM?

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>>732240294
le epic trole XdddDDDdDDdDDddD!!!!1!!!!!11!!!!!1!!!!

>>732240013
The bleach analogy only applies if meat is poison, which it isn't. That's what makes you retarded, you can't make a simple analogy that fits the premise of your argument.

And talking about the well being of another creature, are we talking on an individual level or species wide? Because outside of factory chicken farms, animals like cows, pigs and practically any other animal we eat enjoy a far better life as a result of us eating them than if they were left to their own devices in the wild.

You think nature is a wonderful pretty place for an animal? It's savage and mean and cruel and suffering. It means living in fear and stress constantly looking out for predators. The result of us eating them means their quality of life is so much better, and that includes their death. Would you prefer a quick death without pain or a long one as fangs and claws tears into you until your body finally gives in and dies? Would you rather be killed by a human or a lion?

>>732240529
kek

>>732240709
Which point is that exactly anon? That humans are capable of using tools to make the harvesting of food simpler?

>>732240636
Oh I was just hoping that an intestinal parasite would work it's way into that excuse of a brain of yours and then the world would be rid of your unbelievable faggotry. But go ahead and cook it up, enjoy the dementia and/or heart disease/stroke/cancer/plethora of health problems.

Animals used for dairy, are raped to become pregnant. They wouldn't need to be milked if this didn't happen. Also, they are given little time to recover. , which leads to infections. The consistent pregnancy causes the animals to create unhealthy amounts of estrogen, which increases the amount in the milk. Estrogen growth hormone is used on animals to help them gain more weight for slaughter, and can be found in the meat.

>>732240438
Go eat something raw. I dare you. Facts man. I'm not saying it's impossible it's not healthy. Go take a food handlers course. I appreciate arguments that are articulated not shat out of ignorance.

>>732240357
Nails fuck wit, and all our teeth. even our rear grinding teeth are evolved to serrate and cut flesh. Thats why we have elogated edges on the outer edge of our teeth.

>>732235348
I eat animals because I don't want animal over population to kill them and make them starve and prolong their suffering....

>it's a mercy killing

>>732240803
No, it's that humans are incapable of consuming raw meat without tools and/or cooking it. Is it really that hard to follow?

>>732235348
Go, vegan..

>>732240499
Catfish are scavengers! Haha

>>732240598
I don't think it's right or practical to do that to cows, regardless of how happy their lives are. I think it's much more simple to eat plantfoods as to guarantee environmental sustainability and animal welfare. If eating plant-based causes harm, it causes less ultimately, which is what vegan philosophy shoots for.

>>732240819
I literally eat raw fish damn near every day.

Perks of working in a sushi place.

>>732240809
>But go ahead and cook it up, enjoy the dementia and/or heart disease/stroke/cancer/plethora of health problems.
Don't worry, I do/will

>>732240769
>The bleach analogy only applies if meat is poison
I'm not the same guy, but holy shit you are dumb. I really hope you're trolling. If not, stay in high school.

Eating concentrated protein, from meat, allowed us the opportunity to evolve larger brains. Without larger brains we wouldnt have any concept of ethics or morality.

>>732240935
Sure and thats great for you, but if you put me or my mom on a vegan diet, we'd die of malnutrition.

>>732240885
Is it really that were incapable of it? I thought it was just that cooking broke it down to the point where we were more easily able to digest/absorb the nutrients.

>>732235348
>>732235348
you realize that these animals would be extict without us right? can you imagine such large herds of....fucking COWS living in the wild?

we feed them, we shelter them, we make sure they are healthy,they are able to live because of us. So guess what, we also eat them as well. What you should be against is the specifics of how they are treated when they are being mistreated, not against eating meat in general. There is literally no reason to not eat meat

also quit acting like an intelligent, self-righteous fuck when you don't even know the difference between sentience and sapience.

all animals are sentient. Fuck, even quite a few are sapient."Feeling" and "suffering" arent the same thing

>>732240864
The only reason there are so many is because we keep breeding them. We stop breeding them, their numbers will dwindle. Also on a sidenote, don't be retarded and pretend you care about cow welfare and the risks of overpopulation kek. You like McDonalds.

>>732240832
Nails are rounded an I bet you you could peel a fruit better than you could kill a bunny with your bare hands. Oh yeah don't forget we are super slowwwwww. Predators speeds are way higher than a human could ever run. Inb4 cars are evolution.

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>>732235348
Yes. You are the top of the food chain and therefore you are allowed to act like it.
A better question is how many of these green spaghetti eating fucks are pro life and don't use the same "muh woman's choice" argument.

>>732240997
Actually fire had more to do with that than meat.
I'm not vegan, but cooking our food freed more easy calories for us to grow brains from, from both meat and veg.

>>732241080
Morality is subjective, gotcha.
People who are pro-life are retarded, especially if they aren't vegan but are pro-life.

>>732235348
Nature does not need an ethical basis nigger

>>732240885
> it's that humans are incapable of consuming raw meat without tools and/or cooking it
Heh, that's cute.
Shocker of an argument though given that it's demonstrably wrong.

>>732235348
No. Many will try, as you can see, but none will be able to SUCCESSFULLY, LOGICALLY argue that, so long as morality means ANYTHING, that there is a single possible reason why in modern times we should ever possibly need to brutalize and consume animals against their will.

>>732241043
Why not try it out some time? Try tearing flesh from a dead animal and then tell me how natural and easy it all feels. According to the logic in this thread it should be as easy as picking an apple from a tree and eating it. Good luck.

>>732236195
Get fucked, How do you get essential proteins from simple, leafy greens. You god damn herbivore

>>732239981
the trick is to eat the rice on drugs

>>732241186
>demonstrably wrong
Please, demonstrate it.

>>732240927
They scavenge, they also hunt but like any other predator they aim to expend the least energy possible to gain their next meal.

>>732240885
what is sushi?

>>732241213
Hemp. Chia. Flax. Quinoa.

>>732235348
>logical basis
Not applicable. You can't prove anything purely with logic. You need a premise to start. Your premise seems to be that lower animals have the same value as human beings. This is wrong.

>if it's because of sentience, the ability to feel and suffer that we ascribe moral value to the life of a human being
This is not why human lives have value. Human lives have value because we can threaten other humans. Humans are the apex predator of apex predators on this planet. No animal is a threat to man but man himself. Society exists because of the threat we pose to each other. To mitigate this threat so we can live in relative peace, we form society and accept the social contract. This is the source of all morality. Morality is that which is implicitly agreed is necessary for humans to live in peace. Morality can never apply to lower animals directly because they cannot threaten us. They have neither the power nor the self-awareness to enter the social contract. Any rights animals have, or moral rules concerning them, are purely mercy from humanity, which we may revoke at our leisure.

>What is the trait not present in human beings
That trait would be the lack of power to threaten humans, and the lack of intelligence and awareness necessary to understand and accept the social contract (not that they could, given they lack power). Without these traits, lower animals are forever outside morality.

When an animal kills a human, do we put it on trial? No, either we kill it because it is a threat to us, or we let it live because the fool killed deserved it due to his own stupidity.

If people are animals, and animals eat other animals, why shouldn't people eat animals? You cannot equate humans with lower animals, but even if you could, you'd only prove the opposite of what you want.

>>732241079
We're attrition hunters dumbass.

Our nails naturally hook after they lengthen.

>>732241257
Please teach me how to catch fish with my bare hands/teeth/however you imagine it happens.

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>>732240341
>Because it's the right thing to do
Last words said before rounding up and gasing the Jews.

>>732241328
Go into a bayou, stick your hands into muddy holes until a big catfish chomps down on it.
Pull out said catfish and take it home to cook.

>>732241079
Heh wtf are you talking about, we use plant fibre to make cord, we use cord to make a snare, we catch rabbit - our large brain is the reason our bodies are deficient in other ways and we need a lot of energy in comparison to other animals - why would any human attempt to hunt without using their biggest tool to effect the outcome.

>inb4 but anon a snare isn't your hands

>>732241257
Fish isnt meat. Just ask the catholic church

>>732241119
Yes your point is good, however meat eating significantly predates the cooking of food. Also lets stop saying humans cant eat raw meat. We can. Its less advantageous than cooking because obviously we become ill more readily than our carniverous cousins, but consumed at the site of killing or properly preseved theres no issue in principle.

>>732241328
just wait til the salmon goes to their birthplace(?). you can catch them literally flying up the streams

>>732241283
And they are so strong then right? Grow em out and kill a motionless bunny with them. They will break. Try again

>>732241410
>take it home to cook
thank you

Cholesterol and saturated fat arent always bad fuckface. Nutrition is still a very young incomplete science and they say one thing that ends up being another.
You need saturated fat and cholesterol to produce testosterone among many other functions.
Ever here of a ketogenic diet?
I eat nothing but animals and fat. Tons of beef, elk, fish, butter, eggs, etc. Cut out all grains and sugary foods, processed shit, etc.
I am the healthiest I have ever been. Cholesterol is perfect. Triglycerides, blood pressure, etc all perfect. I never get hungry, and have lots of energy.
The cholesterol you consume in food does not equal the amount in your blood.
Been on this for years now.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that eating meat is fine?
Humans CAN eat raw meat fine, we just cook it as a precaution. Our teeth are clearly for omnivores as well as our digestive tract. Plus theres the gallbladder.
Eating animal liver has almost ALL the nutrition a human needs to survive.
I think you are a troll
Everyone, meat is fine. Research it yourself from an evolutionary prospective and dont listen to faggot OP

>>732241328
You said eat not catch.

Also i can catch a salmon barehanded rather easy.

It's called slap-fishing. You make an artificial ledge (use a downed log) in a river then slap the salmon once it jumps to get up the stream. Did it all the time as a kid.

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>>732235941
you wanna play that game? okay then

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

his point illustrated the hypocrisy in your argument, and is, thus, valid

do you even know how to properly debate faggot?

>inb4 "its not a debate bruh"

then why bring up logical fallacies in the first place

>>732241443
I'd love to see you try that some time and catch enough for a proper meal.

>>732235348
Animals are tasty. No further justification needed.

>>732241249
There are countless cultures around the world, some of which still operate in traditional methods that harvested things like Bivalves/shellfish with their hands and consumed them raw, burrowing frogs, harvested by hand and consumed raw - do you have no general knowledge of the world, how did you manage to be this insulated.

>>732241513
>barehanded
>artificial ledge

hmmm, I can catch a rabbit with my bare hands too, first I shoot it with a gun, then I just pick it up. Checkmate vegans.

Honestly, I can't wait for lab grown meat. Lots of people say it sounds gross, but if you can chemically engineer the most delicious perfect steak, I'm down for it.

>>732241531
how about you just youtube "catching fish with bare hands"
thousands of videos showing it is possible, and not just that one way either

>>732241273
My premise is that animals have enough value to not warrant being killed without need, because they can suffer palpably. They don't need to be equal to humans to avoid being killed for food.

Social contracts isn't an argument. You're essentially saying morality is subjective and you don't care until you are threatened directly.

The reason we don't put animals on trial is because they have no conception of ethics, therefore we don't hold them to human standards of law and ethics. It's instinct for a lion to eat it's prey.

Your issue is you think drawing comparisons to animals means you have to equate them to humans, which I think you know is horseshit.

>>732241417
Monkeys don't do this. And I know what you mean. I get where you come from but again it's smarter ,which is your agrument, to grow veggies than to raise beef. Takes less resources to grow. I firmly believe that our big brains and conscious comes from alien race hybrid with the early human population. Yes I'm one of them. Humans just don't quiet fit on earth

>>732241421
> Its less advantageous than cooking because obviously we become ill more readily than our carniverous cousins
Only modern humans, there are still plenty of arctic cultures that eat seal and reindeer raw as a basic part of their diet.

>>732241471
We don't even need nails because we have apposable thumbs retard. Our nails are gets the extra latch for grabbing slippery prey like fish.

Animals use claws for 2 things: warding, and grip. Mans have thumbms for that.

Are dolphins not evolved carnivores either? Dont see any claws or fangs on rhose fucks either.

>>732241421
Well when our ancestors ate it raw, they had more immunities to different bugs and parasites.
The reason it makes us sick now is because we made a habit of cooking it. Look at the places where they still eat it raw, they rarely get sick from it, unless it's a carnivore at the end of the food chain that is full of heavy metals.
>>732241473
If you want sushi. Go to Scotland, build your own fishing rod and hooks(so you aren't cheating with remade tools), catch a salmon, gut it with your homemade knife and eat it Gollum style.

>>732241593
First of all, fish isn't exactly meat. Second, this is not a demonstration of any statement being false. Third, please keep trying.

>>732241753
pre-made*

>>732241524
His fallacy is tu quoque actually, he didn't justify his argument. I'm not the one making an argument, just posing a question.

You got a little overzealous there fuckface.

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READ THIS YOU FAGGOT QUEERS HOMO GAY BUTT PIRATES!!!!!

facts:

- 9/10 vegans are dirty hippy scum who don't clean their house properly

- some things like omega 3 are just easier to get and tastier from things like eggs and fish

- people who got over 100 years old eat eggs daily, eggs are very good for a healthy heart

- people who eat a lot of fish look very healthy, compared to vegans who look pale and are more often sick then non vegans

- nothing beats a nice meal containing /fish/eggs/meat

#$%$&#Q$%

THIS IS A MESSAGE TO ALL VEGANS, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD, MAKE SURE YOU GIVE ANIMALS A GOOD LIFE BEFORE THEY GET SLAYED.

START YOUR OWN FARM WITH ANIMALS THAT HAVE BEEN TREATED GOOD. HUG THEM, LOVE THEM, GIVE THEM A NICE HABITAT, FEED THEM WITH GOOD STUFF AND ONE, YES ONE DAY, YOU MUST KILL IT, JUST KILL IT IN A HUMANE WAY.

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE MEAT/FISH/EGG EATERS, SO INSTEAD OF WHINING LIKE A PUSSY, GO MAKE A ANIMAL FRIENDLY FARM AND KILL THEM WHEN THEY HAD A GOOD LIFE.

THIS IS THE FUCKING BEST TIP YOU WILL EVER GET!!!

GODSPEED VEGAN FAGGOTS

LISTEN TO UNCLE ANON, FAGGOT QUEER

PS: TATTOOS AND PIERCINGS DON'T MAKE YOU BAD ASS, IT IS FUCKING GAY. QUEER FAGGOTS!!!

>>732241178
"Morality is subjective therefore my view on it is better". This I feel is typically where the split on most debates
I've debated with a person that said that we over exploit food resources (GMOs and over killing of animals for meat) which supports an overpopulated Earth, which isn't so to speak "natural", which will lead to a societal collapse. It was a pretty good conversation which lead me to believe that the killing of animals for meat is fine as long as it's not overkill.
>>732241524
I can just imagine an irl debate and him responding to an argument with "hehe tu quoque, that's a fallacy that I saw online lol!".
He is then stared down and shamed into submission as the spaghetti sauce from his pockets spills onto the ground.

>>732241753
>If you want sushi
>use tools to catch, gut and eat it
I think the point has been clear for a while now.

>>732241713
No monkeys don't because they're less able to than us but they sure as shit use tools when it's an advantage like using sticks to collect ants/termites or eagles dropping turtles on rocks to break them open for easy access. Every species on earth works on methods of making nutrient extraction less costly, humans are simply the best at it.

>>732241621
Lions corner zebra using cliffs and cheeta hunt using trees. Terran is a tool all creatures use.

I gave an example. A natural ledge is fairly common as is and is easily usable for the same purpose.

>>732241749
Thumbs allow us to peel fruit. Our nails are flat to help us do it predators claws are hard and hooked and yes they are for grip. And we can grind meat yes but we don't have the teeth for sinking in and killing. Bottom line all of us only eat from jack n the box and are afraid to try and change

>>732241738
Not arguing that point Anon. Inuit people often eat raw seal blubber etc...

It is however easily demonstrated that processing and eating raw meat is going to result in an increased microbial load. I dont have the digestive enzymes of an average reptile. So ill keep my raw meat eating to what i consider a happy minimum.

>>732241871
Why is it that using our brain to make tools is somehow cheating?
It is how we have survived since we jumped out of the trees in Africa. Heck we use tools to cultivate vegetables, if the use of tools invalidates our right to do something, we can't eat anything.

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>>732241786
>First of all, fish isn't exactly meat
Heh, pic related.
I've already given you examples of cultures which eat red meat raw which apparently is the only thing you consider meat.

>>732241843
Nice strawman buddy. I'm just trying to get a real justification out of him. I'm not saying my view is best by default or whatever.

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>>732241816

>>732241930
Except lions don't move trees around and use them for different purposes. And that's because lions are natural predators, and humans are not. Thanks for proving my point once again.

>>732242024
>I dont have the digestive enzymes of an average reptile.
Nor do I but early humans sure as shit would have had a very different set of flora in their guts to modern humans.

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>>732237133
wow you just equated liking the taste of meat to child molestation and general rape, does that slope slide any further or are you just about at the bottom

aah who am i kidding theres always more slope

>i feel like killing jews is neccessary to keepp my quility of life blah blah you know the rest

sweet i just equated eating a steak to mass genocide (your welcome now you can use this on you own)

>>732242096
Lions don't hunt with trees dumbass.

Also otters move rocks to crush shellfish to eat.

Got another bullshit prapaganda i can debunk.

>>732240610
It's an exaggeration. If the eyes are closer together they are more predator like. I'm saying we are somewhere in between but most people eat way too much meat haha

>>732242191
Inaccurate, most vegans look skinner than that.

>>732242037
>cheating
lolwat? It's not cheating, it just shows that humans aren't natural predators and meat eaters, which is the whole argument here. We started eating meat out of necessity. (we moved to places where suddenly there was winter and no plants, only animals) In order to do so we need tools, and we need to cook because our bodies aren't made to eat meat.

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>>732235348

>>732242240
They're also super selective in which rocks they pick, it's hilarious

>>732235348
Well God did say use the plants on earth as our meat and drink clean water
It's funny how now today medicine is like we need to eat nothing but fruit and veggies, drink water.
I'm like well no crap ppl

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>>732240044

>>732242240
>Lions don't hunt with trees dumbass.
ehhh, I didn't know you had trouble comprehending english, I'm sorry. I will not bully you anymore.

>>732242263
Humans ate meat prior to their use of fire.

Pro Meat here, 5ft 9, 190 lbs with 8% bf. meat is where I get the majority of my protein without taking bullshit supplements that vegan lifters take. Humans and monkeys once shared a common ancestor and monkeys are naturally omnivores so all this we weren't supposed to eat meat shit is bullshit. Monkeys have very similar teeth to us and they're naturally eating meat, so why shouldn't we be naturally eating meat? Also regarding the image above where we can't digest raw meat, thats because cavemen discovered fire and began to cook it since it was more pallatable and efficient. Hence we were evolved to not be able to eat raw meat since we didn't need this feature anymore. Argue with that veganfucks

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>>732242262

pic definitely related

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>>732242306

>>732242263
>We started eating meat out of necessity. (we moved to places where suddenly there was winter and no plants, only animals)
We were hunting for meat long before we left the foodbowl of central Africa anon, your argument has 0 basis.

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>>732242370

>>732241512
Ayyyyy best response in the thread. My diet is the same and my hdl to ldl ratio is a .9 lmfao

>>732242396
>there are no plantless deserts in africa
ok mate

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>>732242262

Don't forget about this one

Humans have those teeth since they don't kill with their mouths, they killed with tools and their hands . Early humans used to chase animals for miles and then kill them with a spear/rock or whatever not bite into them fucktards, so why would they need carnivorous teeth?

>>732242263
But our bodies adapted to eat meat, also if your claim that we didn't eat animals before we went to places with winter, why isn't the entire continent of Africa full of only vegan people?
It's natural for us to develop tools, with those tools we enabled ourselves to become omnivores.
I'm still of the opinion that if we treat the animals right, we get to eat them. Which is more consideration than any other omnivore out there shows.

>>732241786
>fish isnt meat

what fish IS however is a fucking sentient animal

also what aout the frogs? we can also eat any non-poisonous insect raw as well and many culture eat mammals raw, such as a traditional lebanese meal kibbeh which is lamb, and often eaten raw.

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>>732242096

Not him, but mankind is omnivore.

We evolved and got larger brains by eating fish/meat/eggs.

Some herbs and plants you need to get the same nutrition don't grow all year.

So humans evolved because we were hunting.

You really think people around the globe had CHIA SEEDS to get their omega 3, don't think so buddy.

All the nutrition you need can be found in fish/meat and eggs/milk.

Humankind would not exist if there were no animals.

So go ahead and be a hypocrite, because we enjoy our food.

>>732242353
Your the one who confused cheetas with lions dumbass. But it's nice of you to defect my argument since you clearly cant contest it.

>>732242160
Well yes our gut microbiome has evolved as we have, and continue to do so. This isnt to say that early hominins didnt suffer from GI problems. Even modern human cultures who continue a tradition of eating raw meat have increased prevalence of brucellosis, salmonellosis and other enteric infections.

ITT: Bro Science ad nauseum.

>>732242263
>our bodies aren't made to eat meat
You can keep saying that, doesn't make it true.
There are humans to this day who still consume raw meat as a basic dietary component as has been mentioned a dozen times in this thread.
You can keep saying that, doesn't make it true.

>>732242492
That guy is on roids, doesn't really count does it?

>>732242537
That's a very insightful thing to say Timmy, well done, you can choose a sticker!

>>732242482
>Foodbowl of central Africa
>Desert
How dense are you?

>>732242595
>You can keep saying that, doesn't make it true.

kek'd in half

>>732242635
>roids

Prove it shit weasel.

>>732242518
Oh god, I knew I shouldnt have used the word winter as an example, now you lot all get hung up on that one thing. It's too much.

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Imagine being defensive and assblasted enough to go onto an anonymous imageboard and complain about what people who you don't know are eating

>>732242530
>All the nutrition you need can be found in fish/meat and eggs/milk.
lol, I really hope you don't live by that assumption.

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>>732242420

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>>732242530

VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!!
VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!!
VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! !
VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!!
VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL...! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! ...VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL!! ..VEGANS ARE DELUSIONAL, hmmk!..

>>732242530

>>732242370
if the whole world went vegan most of our domesticated livestock would go extinct without us providing for them

unless you are telling us to still raise entire species using our own resource for literally nothing in return

>>732235348
B12 only comes from animal sources. What did humans do before your bacteria grown B12 capsules?

>>732242836
It came from bacteria in the dirt dipshit.

>>732242903
So vegans include dirt as a dietary supplement?

>>732242716
Well your claim of tools not being natural is just as asinine, we are naturally a tool using species.
A spear was used for hunting first and war second.
Just because you've decided not to eat meat, doesn't make you a better person. It just makes you a person who doesn't eat meat.

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>>732242783

>>732242971
No one said eat the dirt. Anon it's like you don't even know how to read...

>>732243068
Which is why people should buy unprocessed meat and make their own sausages and stuff.
Also being vegan is fine, being against cooking is stepping back to before we started growing larger brains.

>>732235348

lets see about cultures:

Pure Carnivore:
Eskimo

Vegetarian:
Jainist (with a heavy reliance on cheese and butter)

Omnivore:
All the rest

Vegan:
None

>>732242993
>we are naturally a tool using species
So? You don't need a tool to pick an apple from a tree. Or any other fruit or vegetable for that matter.

>Just because you've decided not to eat meat blablabla
I do eat meat. It's just very obvious that mankind really isn't designed to eat meat, at least not in the amounts that I personally do. It's delicious, but I'm not gonna pretend we're naturally meat eating predators when we're not. I just love the taste of meat.

>>732243135
>>732243103
>>732243068
>soccer mom facebook posts are the vegan's last line of defense

>>732243216
There are actually some sorts of clay that are good to eat, especially if your diet is rich on vegetables with some natural toxins in them.

>>732242903

Got anything backing you up that a dirt residue on food has anything near enough B12 in it?

>>732243178
>because its literally impossible to get nutrition from meat or illnesses from plants

fuck off

>>732243216
So how does your statement go any way towards damaging other anons argument

>>732243274
>So? You don't need a tool to pick an apple from a tree. Or any other fruit or vegetable for that matter.
You don't need tools to eat meat either, it simply eases the process generally and nature always works towards expending the least energy to gain the most.