Let's have a child marriage/relationship Thread what do

>>725497217
Absolutely not. And since I'm a pedo, i know what I'm talking about. Marry a child is just an excuse for abuse.

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>>725497217
can you imagine what it would be like to fight about wanting to watch game of thrones or teen titans go...

>>725498612
>fight about wanting to watch game of thrones or teen titans go
Yo, this happens between 'adults' nowadays

>>725498344
Get the fuck out Todd Nickerson.

>>725498612
That be hell on earth.

>>725498779
It happens in every relationship

>>725499973
That is beautiful

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Anyway imo 8 is way to young, 14 to 15 is more natural.

>>725500202
>Anyway imo 8 is way to young, 14 to 15 is more natural.

I think 11-15 is perfect.

>>725497217
It's worth noting that the cultural contexts in which this kind of age differential is considered acceptible, the 9 year old is not considered a child.

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>>725498344
This guy's right tho.

Still, I just want people to stop giving a fuck about me not fucking children.

Plenty of girls want older guys but they don't want fat neckbeard creeps.

>>725497217
>white "culture"

>>725500946
>Plenty of girls want older guys but they don't want fat neckbeard creeps.

Get out normie.

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>>725501814

>>725502070
She is so hot.

ITT: saudi arabia

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>>725502381

She only dates Turians

>>725497217
WTF.

>>725503295
>Feels bad man

>>725499973
how old do you think she was when they fucked?

>>725503044
>ITT: saudi arabia

No were just pedos.

>>725503044
no Suaid Arabians are afraid of women

they all watch gay porn with their underage cousins and jerk each other off

this is more like a Democrat fundraising committee gala

>>725503509

>No qt girl to hug and play video games with.

>>725503680
>this is more like a Democrat fundraising committee gala
at Comet Ping Pong

>>725504157
Go home Chris

>>725505628
WITE WIMEN

>>725503549
apparently they had their first kid when she was fourteen, so at very latest then

>>725499973
>>725500202
She probably loved every inch of his cock. He probably came in her multiple times a day, every day, for at least twenty years.

>>725498612
tv is more seductive than religion nowadays.

>>725506075
shit would not fly today
good thing there were no feminist PC cunts like today back then

This is probably my second post ever on this site, and the last one. This place is a bad cause for one's life, and I encourage everyone to consider what sorts of causes they are making for yourselves and for your life. Get off this nonsense and make something from the brief time we have.

Fuck this shit im out!

>>725506997

Alex Jones loves this thread.

>>725503295
fucking nerds

>>725506075
maybe she was 13 when she COULD have children xD

>>725499973
>"...and he turned her tiny little pink holes into a jam with his giant venous thick dick and they all lived happily ever after. THE END."

>>725509213
omg... that's adorbs!

>>725500790
twitterDOTcomSLASHdanielschell35

The creepy does not end there..

>>725509966

Tell me more.

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>>725498344
checked... I've been completely infatuated with more than one 11 year old. But it just doesn't make sense, and you don't have to be much of a moralfag to agree.

>>725510418

Sad
This girl have been conditioned by Alex Jones.

>>725504142

More likely at the InfoWars headquarters.

>>725510418
>dirty blonde hair
>no sheets on mattress
>ceramic tile in bedroom... or ANY room, for that matter

Argentina (maybe Brazil) detected

>>725501814
Get out of the basement.

You guys are seriously sick as fuck in the head. I come here thinking eh what the fuck it will give me something interesting to write about. A few "creep threads" and a "rekt" thread later and here I fucking am the shit I was always hearing about. I was told don't bother to come here or even try anything other than lurk but I can't. Honestly what in the fuck is wrong with you guys? I know some of you have mental disorders but what about the other 30% of you? You wake up with your relatively normal life and you think "ahh yes time to get some breakfast and then hit up the creep shots thread" or hey maybe even a "tribute thread" (which btw I reported every single picture I could) How the fuck did this site break me this fast who the fuck let you freaks out of the circus??

>>725511174

It's Alex Jones being a creep.

>>725511039
That's too bad...the AoC in Argentina is a sprightly 14.

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ofc

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>>725511174
anonymity is a hell of a drug

>>725511174
Lurk moar.

>>725511419

What about Cash me Outside?

>>725511520
You're right all you basement dwelling losers love your anonymity. Can't wait until it's taken away and you can't post this disgusting shit anymore.

>>725511174
Gtfo reddit fag if u dont like cp then ur either a liar or retarted

>>725512224
It wont be so get over it

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>>725512224
>browses 4chan

stop lying to yourself nigger, also if you dont like us pedos, fuck off back to your dumb weed shit you drug addict hobo

>>725512662
LMFAO seriously? you think the FBI hasn't already considered doing this? from my sources the only reason they keep this shit hole alive is so they can possibly stop future killers and rapists that post here like the young man in Germany.

>>725512773
Fuck off you scum of the earth I don't know why I am even bothering trying to reason with you people. I actually do know some somewhat influential people in government due to a family member who is very close with the. If I can get him to push the issue I don't see half the shit here flying anymore. I shouldn't keep running my mouth we will let actions speak louder than words:)

I'm 17 (almost 18) and into a 15 year old. Is this acceptable? If not, fuck you I do whatever the fuck I want to

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>>725511174
>I come here thinking eh what the fuck it will give me something interesting to write about
Come to /pol/. You'll have plenty of opportunities for writings, because you'll never leave that place.

>>725513030
No you sick freak of a human being.

>>725512992
U forgot to add *tips fedora as I hold my katana* at the end

>>725513147
Been there mostly just racist and sexist scum. Over here it's that and much much worse.

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>>725512992
im fucking terrified nigger, im also a billionaire brother

words are so difficult, fucking paki

time you leave if you dont like it, dumb fuck

>>725513030
Yeah its okay when i was 20 i dared and fuxked a 13 year old

>>725513363
Dated and fucked*

>>725497217
and they lasted happily ever afterrrr the enddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

>>725513342
That picture is absolutely disgusting and probably represents 99% of this god awful site.

>>725513363
ok nice. Now I have the confidence knowing that an anon on 4chan agreed w me

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>>725513431
>>725513363
lies

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>>725506793
>no feminists in the 1930's

Jesus Christ, what's it like being so fucking wrong all the time?

>>725512992
My family is in the cia level 12 ill have them all take care of ur family member

>>725513502
Nope conpletely true i met her on omegle and turned out she lived a few miles away so we met up and got together but I ended with her after a month since she had major issues

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>>725513698

>>725512835
The fbi isnt shutting it down u down syndrome wielding fag

>>725510418
die

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>>725512992
stop anon! you're scaring me!!!

They recently tried to raise the marryin' age to 18 in New Hampshire, but the legislature refused. So, for the young ladies, it will remain 13. Which is one day older than 12. Lots of pissed off feminists who wanted to restrict women's rights.

>>725513889
Wow man too far, u need to learn to be accepting of others u bigot, nothing wrong woth fiddling little kids

>>725513796
I did some research. You think Moot just left on his own free will? Or is it because he didn't want the FBI watching his every pedophile move?

>>725500946
Yes they do, they just aren't fully prepared and afraid of their friends judgement

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>>725511174

>>725512992
PLEASE ANAON NO

>>725497217
Assuming this is not fake, and it almost certainly is, where were here parents in all this?

>>725497217
I think the general consensus is that there should be no age of consent for boys (at least, for non-penetrative sex) but for girls it should either be marriage or 18 if they're not married since girls can undergo a whole slew of problems, from pregnancy to sterilisation from STDs.

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>>725516179

>>725516090
I don't really give a fuck, I like boys

But I think rationally I think girls should have a higher age of consent, girls are fucking retarded, emotional beasts whose genitalia are so delicate that if you were to sneeze at them they'd become fucked up and sterile

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>>725516090
An educated anon indeed. I'd blow you irl
I want to have your children

>>725511174
Lurk more, faggot

>>725516179
So adorable

>>725516179
>This is Homer Peel and his bride Geneva... she is dead these past 30 years, he is dead even longer.

FTFY

>>725497217
>Should kids be allowed to be in relationships with or be married to adult
No, not "allowed", girls should be required to be arranged married to men.
>as well as people their own age??.
No, it is bad for girls to be sluts.

>>725512992
Well aren't you a fun one?

>>725516278
>girls are fucking retarded, emotional beasts whose genitalia are so delicate that if you were to sneeze at them they'd become fucked up and sterile

/b/

>>725515854
And none of that can happen if they aren't married?

>>725516278
Delicate? You should get out more… My dick is the one that hurts

>>725516647
No but at 18 they should know better. Of course, being girls they will not know any better and will open their legs like the parting of the Red Sea for the first charming scallywag that winks at them. Girls are fucking useless.

>>725515485

It's real and it was a scandal at the time and reason why age of consent laws were put in place.

>>725497217
there is nothing wrong with teens having sex with adults.

>>725517006

Also her father approved of the marriage

>>725508451
You are aware that this website owes its entire existence to nerd, right dip shit?

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I just want to know, all memes aside, who else would have passionate sex with a cute 11 year old girl with no strings attached

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"damn those progressive liberals for taking away our right to marry our underage cousins"

>>725513363
is your name Jan by any chance?

>>725517015
Agreed.

>>725516742
You've never been with a beautiful teen boy then?

>>725517129
Hebephile here i totally would.

>>725517279
>progressive liberals
>tennessee
>1930s
lol

>>725517006
It was only a "scandal" because some dusty old feminist cunts didn't like the fact that they are disposable shit compared to young girls, so they pushed for age of consent laws and got them just like they got alcohol banned nationally.

Both of those things are complete failures and honestly only drove the problem underground, increased crime, and the dangers involved in both, for all parties, including the police.

The scandal should be that anyone ever thought it was a good idea to legislate morality. That's exactly what AoC laws are about. Legislating morality. We already have abuse laws. We have rape laws, we have fraud laws, we have enough fucking laws to cover every eventuality in criminal activity between two people, regardless of age.

AoC is crude social engineering by idiots, like prohibition was.

>>725517447

google "age of consent" laws, it was pushed by the progressive liberals of the time.

>>725512992
Is this a new pasta? It should be.

>>725517623

also linked with the early feminist movement.

>>725517006
>it was a scandal
Because city bastards always want something to look down on.
>d reason why age of consent laws were put in place.
No, it was they were raised. And why it was changed so that married girls couldn't drop out of mandatory schooling.
>>725517129
No, I would never rape a girl. I would only have sex with a young girl if sge was my daughter or wife.
>>725517279
Yeah, fuck feminism.

>>725517071
Today in 3rd world Asian and Latin countries parents pimp out their 7 yr old daughters to sex tourists. Not much different than this. I truly don't get people just 10 years younger than me. Imagine people 80 90 years older than me... It's like a different species.

OP you can't use this bizarre extreme case to ask for the same. Unless you move to a shit hole and be King there. Then you'll have 9 9-yr-old wives Muhammad style.

>>725511174
i hope this is some copy pasta and u didnt actually write this shit

>>725517676
>healthy marriage is the same as child whores
You're retarded.

>>725517623
aoc and prohibition were both pushed by feminists of their day. It was all part of a steamtrain of bullshit that led to niggers and women getting a vote, on top of mountains of outlandish bullshit, leading right to our getting off the gold standard and starting the proper decay of the country so a handful of rich fuckers could get even richer.

hoestly its all the womans fault why are these cunts even allowed to vote. END WOMAN SUFFRAGE

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Mr Ferguson spanked another man's wife.

>>725497217
I dislike this subject. I think it is perfectly okay to find a child sexually appealing and want to fuck/marry them. But actually doing it, I would consider unacceptable. But then, 16 is totally fucking arbitrary age. Even the concept of using age is totally arbitrary. But what is the alternative? I think it comes down to would rather have some number of children who aren't ready fucked and married by the time they are 10, or would you prefer that that some number of children are forced to wait until they reach some totally arbitrary age? To me the latter is least damaging and least likely to result in a child being fucked into a mental health disorder.

>>725517676
>Today in 3rd world Asian and Latin countries parents pimp out their 7 yr old daughters to sex tourists

It is nothing like that you poor ignorant, fool. They got married for life to someone the parents could approve of, not pimped like a fucking hooker. It's so completely different, I'm honestly baffled at your bullshit comparison.

>>725500202
they look fairly happy

>>725509782
Every time I see the word "adorbs" I think it says "absorbs"

>>725517918
>hoestly its all the womans fault

They need to die good thing we have heroes like Elliot Rodger fighting against the feminist system.

>>725517853
No you're just projecting.
Also, all laws are morality legislation. Hence they change as morality changes.
The laws about death by hanging and firing squads were changed to reflect changes in morality. We petition politicians to change laws because they are no longer moral.

>>725518080
By all accounts it was a happy successful marriage. They had like 5 or 8 kids and were together for life.
>>725518350
There's nothing immoral about proper marriage.

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My grandparents were kids when they were married. It's a cultural thing. People today just don't understand. Honestly, people today are dumb as fuck and so lacking in real life experience that they automatically knee-jerk whatever internalized dogma they were programmed with. It's very unattractive and immature.

There's nothing wrong with it at all. Honestly, the stigma is undeserved and an artificial product of pure unbridled jealously. It's jealously, honest to God. Old saggy bitches getting completely assravaged by the idea that a child is worth a million times more than they will ever be, and then their omega level pissant men that grovel at their demands and internalize their bullshit and pretend it's universal moral law are even worse.

>>725497217
I sucked a friend's dick when I was 11 and the next day I kissed his dick but didnt suck because we somehow convinced eachother it was gay halfway through

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>>725498612

>>725517676
You're either stupid or trolling. You're comparing completely different things. You are talking about something that apparently is beyond your ability to understand.

>>725516558
sums up 4chans view on women so perfectly should be screencapped tbh

Fuck this sick, perverted shit. I'm going back to the shota bread.

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>>725497217
With sufficient force, it will fit.

>>725503295
>stripes on both arms

Fucking normals, they must explode.

>>725518576
This

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>>725512992
new pasta confirmed

My grandmother was 16 and my grandfather was 27 when they married.

>>725518451
We don't even let minors enter into simple business contracts. Statutory rape laws are based on same premise that minors are idiots and vulnerable and need to be protected from predators with big smiles, and situations where the parents may consent to a fucked up arrangement out of weakness or craziness.

We can't have a situation where a 22 year old is allowed to fuck an infatuated 9 year old (how the fuck did they even date before marriage?)

>>725518820
wtf is this

>>725506997
you will be missed sweet prince

you were always an hero to us

>>725518979

A girl likes the same shit as me, I can forgive a few mistakes, I'm not going to quiz her on the Turian command structure.

>>725518820
These pictures will never stop beimg so hot. She's not young enough that her being pregnant looks really weird but she is young enough that it's really hot.
I want to know so much more about it. How old was she? Who was the father?
>>725519095
From what I read they met at school, it was a one-room schoolhouse. Very romantic.
And dating is disgusting modern concept that only exists to encourage girls to be sluts. Stop trying to paint healthy marriage as a bad thing.

>>725519135
It's called "freshening your stock". By the time she's too old to turn you on, you have a hot new piece of underaged ass to go to town on.

Unless she has a boy. Then you throw that shit from the top of the cliff or leave it for the coyotes.

>>725497217

Arranged marriages are COMMON among many Muslims... arranged between siblings over their children... YES! Cousin marriage is HUGE in Pakistan.

OP is a collosal pedo faggot. KYS quickly before you do something and get caught, because Tyrone and Miguel will turn you into their cum sponge in jail

>>725519391
Not an argument.

>>725506997
>sorts
youll stay anon. youll stay and lurk. everyone does.

>cantescape.jpg

>>725519342
>how old was she?

Looks about 8 or 9

>Who was the father?

I'm suspecting her daddy grampa who's making out with her.

>>725519540
fuck phoneposting

>>725519342
>healthy marriage
This is the only known case like this where a marriage succeeded. Out of how many? Marriage isn't even working for adults these days. Add all the porn and CP addicts into the mix and dude you are paedophilia dreamin about such an arrangement working today in the west.

But it does happen in 3rd world primitive countries. You are welcome to move to those enlightened locations.

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>>725517279
>"damn those progressive liberals for taking away our right to marry our underage cousins"

>>725519095
>date before marriage
What are you talking about, dude? All that shit is newage shit unless you're talking about courtship which is once the girl was getting close to max marriage age without someone already in mind. What, do you think they had POF and smartphones back then?

People grew up with people and formed real bonds and weren't deluded as fuck like millennial today about finding some national hero or rock singer or some shit to marry because they were far more mature about what was real and what was not.

Today kids are flooded with illusion constantly. In their days, they lived in real life all day long. Can you even imagine that, pleb?

>>725519362
>Cousin marriage is HUGE in Pakistan
That explains a lot, actually.

>>725519780
>This is the only known case

No it's not, are you an idiot, or just think everyone else is? Child Marriage is as old as walled cities, and it has been profoundly successful.

>>725519809
Right, you said it. Today it's not realistic due to modern living.

>>725519495
It's a tip based on reality. Better take it or face repercussions.

wtf yall are some fucked up pedophile motherfuckers
please kill yourselves

>>725519969
No, it's just as realistic today. The problem is most people are simply too immature. Regardless of their age, people don't live in reality today. They build up fantasies and live their lives in those.

the only reason it's not realistic to marry under 18 would be the laws, but those vary from country to country and many countries have AoC laws starting around 12 which is reasonable considering that's pubescence.

>>725499973
>>725500202
>>725497217


She's gorgeous. Very angelic aura about her

>>725520245
Go to hell you deluded fucktard. You'd better hide, the boogeyman's coming, child.

>>725517938

Such a bad girl! I bet that little pale bum was nice and red

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>>725520387

>>725520297
Welcome to 4chan new guy.

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>>725500202
Oh look at that mouth. I bet she opened up her throat and let him throatfuck her and go completely unhinged on her.

>>725517279
>>725497217

Just look at the way she holds her two fingers - such a cute little lady. Bet he spanked that pale bum of hers plenty

>>725519780
>This is the only known case like this where a marriage succeeded
You're seriously retarded. Child marriage has always worked.

>>725499973
>>725500202
He looks like some Beetle Bailey's character! lol

>>725519780
>This is the only known case like this where a marriage succeeded
[citation needed]

>>725519780
> only known case like this

Are you really this ignorant, or are you trolling? Child marriage has been around since the dawn of recorded history in almost every culture humans have ever created and participated in. Somewhere in your ancestors there is a long line of child mothers and fathers, whether you know it or not, and child marriages tend to be extremely successful because they are generally based on strong cultural and religious traditions, not some newage "wannafuck" western degenerate bullshit.

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How do you guys feel about a perfectly healthy, normal man who wants to procreate and have a family with a morally upright female but enjoys sucking off adolescent boys and drinking their ejaculate?

>>725517938

Look at that mischievous little grin!! Bet she's thinking about her husband's hard cock and the way he tickles her little pink ass hole.

>>725521479
>perfectly healthy

>homosexual
>adulterer

I'm not sure you're on the level of what "perfectly healthy" means.

>>725521479
Recoil

>>725521638
The Greeks, Romans, Celts, Vikings and Germanic groups all did what I proposed. I think it's you who are uncertain what "perfectly healthy" means.

>>725513342
outstanding

>>725517938

Imagine lifting up her dress and seeing her little knickers that have slightly crept into her little butt crack, creating a wedgie, as you playfully spank her. Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the happy couple's bedroom!!!

>>725520424
>this much irony

>>725497217
Getthelube.com

>>725497217
The real reason child marriage is illegal is because the state wants to have full control on programming the children before they are able to legally live their own lives. This way, they can be fully indoctrinated into whatever system the government feels necessary to ensure complete control and compliance of the population.

>>725522166
This!
You should do it with the young girls!

>>725522091
Or maybe because they didn't hit puberty, which is seen as the major step in the development of a spirit / a body ?
Fucking faggot.

>>725522166
You probably believe anyone under the age of 18 is a "young boy", you retard.

>>725521735
>Greeks often mocked by Macedonians for being boy lovers
>Macedonians end up taking over and make Alexander the Great a thing.
>Romans frowned upon homosexual relations until the debauched era of the Empire late in the game.

>>725521479
Kill yourself, fag.
>>725522091
This. Girls shouldn't be in schools at all. They should instead be married good and young so they will be good wives.

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>>725522456
>lie
>*those* Macedonians were Hellenic who spoke Greek, not shit tier slavic FYROM Macedonians of today
>Another lie

>mfw Alexander the Great was bisexual

>>725497217 >>725519361
im going back to /pol/

Such a boring conversation happening in this thread. Can we talk about her knickers and the spanking she endured by her school teacher? What do you think little mischievous Eunice was doing or naughty things she was talking about to warrant a red bum?

>>725522518
And also so they dont get fucked by niggers

>>725510219
look it up yourself you lazy faggot

The whole idea of oh huurrr duurr kids cant consent is a myth started by feminist and anti-pedofags that still continues today.

>>725518979

"How to have impossibly high standards and ensure a life of loneliness and seclusion, the post"

>>725523214
Shut the fuck up faggot, 2D is love, 2D is life; normals must explode.

>>725522819
Well, that's a given. No man would give his daughter in marriage to one of those animals. But there shouldn't be any niggers in the country anyway.

>>725523397
Very true

>>725522410
In case you missed it, girls are pubescent from about 11-12 and up, and many as young as 8 or 9.

>be me at 15. Dad marries the woman he had dated for a few years after splitting with my mom.
>Woman has a 11yr old daughter that's now my step sis.
>dad has a long talk with me about her because her dad had molested her for years before her mom found out.
>tells me not to mention her dad and to avoid "dirty" topics with her.
>don't get it until the week after they move in. She is hypersexualized and always finding a reason to talk about sex.
>parents do Thier best to stop her including therapy. Gets lighter but never stops.
>it's 230am and about a month after they moved in. I can't sleep so I decide to jerk off.
>pretty into it head thrown back on pillow jerking away. Feel hot wet moistness all over my cockhead.
>step sis is standing on the side of bed bent over with my dick in her mouth.
>I never heard her come in. I was scared and confused but it felt so good I didn't say anything I just let her. After a minute she pops it out and gets on top of me.
>I'm freaking out because ive never made out yet let alone sex. She must have noticed cuz she asked if I was ok.
> I just nodded as she put me inside and them moved her hips. Came inside her in less than a minute.
>she gets off me and lays next to me and says she wanted to do that since she moved here and she has no one to play "the game" with. >Asks if I will play. Say yes and at pretty much the same time we said we should keep it secret.

Never stopped fucking her. We are both married to other people but have sex at least 4-6 times a month. Two of her children we are pretty sure are mine. One for sure is her husbands. I'm not a fool and know she cheats on him with other men to. Kinda feel sorry for him he's a nice guy

File: f3f8c67d90fff7846a3ce5b15074191d.png (246KB, 758x1000px) Image search: [Google]

246KB, 758x1000px

>>725523366
>2D isn't love
>2D isn't life
>normals mustn't explode

There is a certain age where anything younger they are not mentally developed enough for it to be remotely ok. the reason it is 18 is because the ultra conservative bible pushing twats and super left wing femnazis see it as a threat to their chances of keeping their men around.

AoC should be 15 not 18, younger you're fucked it the head. Kys

/thread

>>725511174
Gtfo normie fagget

>>725523796
>We are both married to other people but have sex at least 4-6 times a mont
>she cheats on him with other men to
That's terrible. Why did you let her continue down the path of becoming such a horrible slut? You could've stopped it. You're a bad person for not staying with her.
But that's just a lie story. Why would you even come to such a pleasant thread and tell such horrible lies.

>>725524498
>Sluts are bad m'kay?

KYS.

>>725497217
Within two generations, people will be looking back at this time period with oustanding confusion and disbelief. Pedophiles are the modern day witch. They are trumped up as being this powerful and subversive force that must be reckoned with mercilessly when the facts are that the majority of real pedophiles are not harmful to children and would be happy with a child bride for life.

There are deviants in every race, in every sexual orientation, in every facet of life there is corruption, but attraction to children is not corruption, it's nature. What's dangerous and harmful is not a loving relationship with a child, but the opposite, which people pretend is the only thing a pedophile is.

Just like people saw some old recluse living in the woods and they want a focal point for their hatred to make them feel part of a community. It's why the Aztecs had human sacrifice. It's a fundamental human trait to gang up on "the other" and "the other" has been and will be many things, up until we realize it's ourself.

>>725524600
Yes, it's bad for girls to be sluts. Fuck off, feminist piece of shit.

Girls are stupid cum drunk sluts at any age.

i would love to marry a young girl. You could mold them into the perfect wife.

>>725516179
she got some hips for her age ....not unusual for 12 year olds to look like that now but not then