Anyone who does not understand why communism is the best political

why nigga?

>>724360723
Because the basis of communism is that workers have power. The basis of capitalism is that owners have power.

Are you a worker, or do you own a company? The answer to that question should determine which system you support.

Ain't no party like the communist party because it ain't working.

>>724360950
Yeah the website that this image came from made that joke.

>>724361031
That was to be expected.

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Fidel Castro has made Cuba one of the safest nations in all of Latin America.
- Low murder rate
- Low theft rate
- Low prostition rate (considering other LA countries)

Cuba has one of the best health care systems in all of LA, as well.
- Free for all citizens
- Major exporter of doctors to regions in need
- Free for all foreigners
- Lowest infancy death rate in LA, lower than USA

Cuba has one of the best education systems in the world, esspecially LA.
- 97% literacy rate
- Some of the worlds best universities
- Some of the best medical schools in the world (including the Latin American School of Medicine, a med. school for foreigners who agree to work in low income area of their home countries, and it's free)
- Free and guaranteed education for all citizens

Kept Cuba from imperialist dominance
- Defended homeland from American invasion during Bay of Pigs
- Stood up to the USA during Cuban Missile crisis
- First time in Cuba's history it has been TRULY independant

No party murdered as many of their own people. no party like that. YOur idea is dead, never will it be accepted or wanted by majority of people including majority of working class. Never was there a successful country to survive with it. your mind is fogged and you probably are a jobless twenty-something loser who lives in his parents apartment who never tried socialism and worse communism in your life. Gtfo and be productive you fucking loser.

>>724362351
Your mind has been brainwashed. You're not worth talking to. Actually, I shouldn't say that. You're a worthwhile person, as we all are. But I know that nothing I say will move you. Sadly, I could point to so much evidence that simply disproves your view. But I can tell you will dismiss it. So I will not waste my time. Good luck to you. I hope you come around one day.

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>>724361517
>Fidel Castro made the murder rate lower
>by murdering thousands of people, including extended family, who he, in his paranoia, thought were "out to get him" when most weren't.

>Cuba has one of the best health care systems in all of LA
>So, still third-world level then? Right? Right.

Kek it's amazing how indoctrinated these stupid ass kids are these days honestly. This is what happens when parents tell their kids they don't have to get a part-time job during high school; they grow up thinking shit just falls out of the sky for free.

>>724360644
If it's so good, why has it historically always been a failure?

>>724362811
https://www.google.si/search?q=hospitals+in+cuba&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=925&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivmdHz3r3SAhVNrRQKHaiCCdsQ_AUIBigB

point us evidence

>>724362852
The Cuban healthcare system is world-class. In terms of access to healthcare, it beats the United States. The fact that Cuba is a tiny island under embargo by the biggest country in the world only demonstrates how powerful communism is to overcome those disadvantages.

As for murder, you can make up whatever lies you like. The murders of US presidents are well documented, both through foreign invasions and through their support of dictatorships and tyrannies such as Noreaga. The US has ordered the execution of thousands in the name of the fight against communism.

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Approved by a STALKER.

>>724363287
Capitalism is currently failing 40% of the population. Why not mention that? You can walk down any downtown street and see its failure. Or look at house foreclosures. Or look at the salaries of teachers, and highly educated professors on food stamps. This, in the richest country in the world. How can that be called success?

>>724360888
Communist states just transfer capitalist power to the hands of the state, leaving proletarians as powerless as before. But hey, it's a "proletarian" state so it must be empowering..

>>724363489
why do you use capitalist merchandise then? use communist inventions and products. where are they? how many are there? your phone, tv, computer, car, clothes... what is there? they run out even of coffee every now and then

>>724363515
Cuba is the best counterexample to that argument, because it is a successful implementation of communism.

The USSR became an imperialist power, and did indeed concentrate power at the top. Its agenda became about power expansion. Even so, the average person living in the USSR - even during the sell-out phase after Stalin's death - was far better off than what happened when the oligarchs took over under capitalism. If you visit common people in the former soviet bloc, they are nostalgic for communism. That's because they had a better life then.

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>>724360644
you need to be physically removed

>>724363716
Is it a surprise that an island nation with a trade embargo by its huge superpower neighbour would find it difficult to import products?

You can compare access to housing, food, healthcare, clothing in the US today to Cuba, and Cuba still comes out favourably, because the poorest people are well cared for. Under capitalism, the poorest are left to rot - used only for their labour. The condition of labour is insecurity. Everyone must worry about losing their job, and take low pay.

>>724363829
That does not mean workers had power. Capital owners in Cuba where still the masters over the workers, even if capital was now owned by the state. Communism is a fraud and as much a threat to the proletariat as capitalism

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>>724363342
>access to healthcare
Clever wordplay you're trying to use to avoid communism's obvious failures. Access to healthcare is great. So is quality of healthcare. If everyone gets 'free access' to healthcare, but your doctor's office is a fucking chicken shack with barely any supplies then what good is the fact that it's free?

Face it, capitalism incentivizes quality, efficiency, as well as innovation 1000x more than communism ever has or will.

>Make up whatever lies you want
Ah, so falling back on the good old "fake news" bullshit now? Stop trying to rewrite history.

I'm sure your goofy ass wouldn't walk through little Havana spouting your pro-commie bullshit to people who actually lived under it and escaped. They'd set your dumb ass straight in about 4 seconds.

>>724360644


You should have lived in Eastern Europe between the 1950 and 1990, and then you would know perfectly why communism is not a nice thing.

>>724364121
To describe a Cuban doctor's office as a chicken shack only proves you know nothing of the subject.

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>>724364233
I wasn't describing it as such. I was making a point. The fact that you focused on something as inconsequential as that instead of addressing the valid point that I made shows just how indoctrinated and uneducated you are.

>>724364194
My grandfather grew up in Poland during that time. While I agree that conditions were not great, I'm not extolling the USSR or its imperialism. I'm talking about communism. At that point, the USSR was enacting imperialism.

Even so, to understand communism's effects on Eastern Europe you have to consider the historical conditions there. Eastern Europe has always been underdeveloped - as has Russia. With the first decades of communism Russia in particular leapt ahead as an industrial power, providing cars, rail, factories, goods, electricity to huge swathes of the population. This is always ignored by critics of communism.

>>724364045
dude, people here lived under that shit and its hell. YOu run out of basic goods. whatever free we were provided was shit quality. Its a system for lazy people where no mater if you work you get paid. people who are in power are stupidly rich and never change. democracy doesent work there and working class stays poor. Reminds me of it when i see shit cars they still drive there. You never tried it yet you talk like an expert. Its a SHIT system that will never bring quality life to no one but country leaders. i see others who lived it try to tell you that. yet you listen to some communist shit propaganda

>>724360644
OP it's funny how you don't want to talk about that great working bastion of Socialism (aka communism lite) Venezuela. Karl Marx himself said that socialism is only the first step towards communism. Even China has learned that it needs capitalism to survive. No where and at no time has communism worked. Not very good bait man, but good enough to make me show everyone else what an idiot you are.

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Bait needs more jpeg

>>724364432
If you are an acolyte of Hayek, I can see there's no point in discussion with you.

Enjoy your brutal dog eat dog world.

>>724364461
>Even so, to understand communism's effects on Eastern Europe you have to consider the historical conditions there. Eastern Europe has always been underdeveloped - as has Russia. With the first decades of communism Russia in particular leapt ahead as an industrial power, providing cars, rail, factories, goods, electricity to huge swathes of the population. This is always ignored by critics of communism.

Sounds just like any liberal defender of capitalism
>hey capitalism is oppressive and kills a lot of people!
>naw its okay because it develops economies

>>724364548
You don't have to visit the moon to talk about it. I can describe its motion, and where it will be in the sky tomorrow, yet I'm not a physicist.

I've read a lot on the subject of communism. I know people who have lived in the eastern bloc, and been to Cuba. Most importantly, I understand the propagandistic nature of our society. From elementary school we are indoctrinated in the value of the free market, and never connect the dots about inequality, starvation, and the shit conditions we have to work under. The media supports the view, and distracts us at every turn. Trump vs. Clinton - great choice. Both billionaires and power brokers. It's astonishing to me how people consider this a democracy.

>>724364461
Well, of course it wasnt true communism. Also Russia exploited other countries so that it could improve itself. Planned economy was a success story at first, although as youve said they leapt ahed with planned economy, but the products were very poor quality and poorly built, because they went quantity over quality.
But importantly, communism dragged Europe back and now these parts are even more behind the west than they were 100 years ago.

>>724364928
As a result of communism, Russia industrialized and modernized. That is not debatable. The idea that that is a step backwards is ridiculous.

>>724365037
Russia yes, other Eastern bloc countries wouldve done better without communism, that what im saying.

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>>724364613
>"If you quote anyone smarter than me, with more knowledge, experience, and basis for their opinion I'll just ignore you."

Every. Wannabe-commie liberal. Ever. You're a shining example of why no one takes you idiots seriously.

>>724365158
>hayek fanboy
>calling other people liberals
wat

>>724360644
Communism is the perfect equation
Unfortunately people are not stationary variables
People change
Perfect communism is in attainable
Fuck off commie

>>724364100
Still waiting for a response to this....

>>724365138
It is possible. But that is debatable. Europe at least has implemented a pretty socialized economic model, which provides a good life for most people. The issue is that the power still remains with the wealthy. And inequality continues to grow, even in socialized Europe, because capital governs.

>>724365361
Oh, did you think it deserved a response? It is false. There.

>>724365361
Don't feel too bad, I'm waiting for a response to this >>724364569 too

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>>724365288
I'm not a hayek fanboy, I specifically used his quote to show that even moderate liberals are smart enough to know that you far-left idiots whining about "how much better socialism and communism would be" say that you are wrong. The fact that you can't see that, even when people on your own side say it's true, just shows again that you are nothing but a tool without the slightest grasp on critical thinking.

>>724365620
Yes, since tankie scum like you are as much oppressors of my class as any bourgeoise pig. But please tell me about Marx prophecies on class liberation

>>724363829
Then what do you say to those who fled and came to America for a better life and have prospered under capitalism?

What do you say to those in a country of, for, and by the people, who fought a war to keep such a system at bay?

Why do you place the word of a few russians over the whole of the western world?

>>724365690
>neoclassical drone
>accussing others of being incapable of critical thinking
hoo boy

>>724365857
Look up tankie. Or read what I've written.

>>724363829
If the USSR was an inferior implementation of Communism and Cuba was better, then how do you know that their implementation of Democracy was any better?

>>724360644

Why are claims on personal property necessarily illegitimate? I understand that ownership of capital, especial capital owned by those with no creators claim, results in the subjugation of laborers. As all capital is derived from labor and/or capital, and all value is derived from the intersection of labor and capital, labor is the font of all value in society; as such estrangement of labor is inherently unproductive.

However, I do not see the public welfare obtained from voiding personal property rights. Why is there the need to extend beyond collective ownership of production if illegitimate rents are destroyed?

>>724365984
I'll do that when you've responded to my claim that communist states just switch class oppression in the hand of private hands to the state

>>724360644
The appeal of communism is fantasy. I, like everyone else, wish that everyone’s needs would be met and society wouldn’t stratify men and women into socio-economic classes, some to forever live better than the others. If there was any evidence that communism worked, I’d be at the front of the line, demanding and fighting for it. But the truth is that it does not. A basic understanding of math, human psychology and evolution, and elementary economics will answer the basic questions as to why it cannot work.

>>724366243
The bedrock of capitalism is that everyone has something, and wants something. And that to get something from someone, you have to give them something in return. At the same time, some things are not owned by anyone, and so we have the government watch over those. It’s the barebones of capitalism. If you want something from someone, give them something in return. Communism on the other hand, believes that everything there is belongs to everyone and no one, and so government should organize everything and give everyone what they need, end of story. Which is all well and good if we were all farm animals without the ability to create new things, but unfortunately, we do. And naturally, as a human being, when you create something, you want to use it or get the benefit of it, not have everyone else lay claim to it. If everything you made was immediately turned over to everyone, whether you wanted to or not, soon, you’d refuse to make things anymore.

>>724366306
This is at the heart of why communism doesn’t work. In capitalist societies, whatever you create is yours. If others want to use it, they will have to give you something in return, something you think has just as much value or use as what you’re giving them. We simply invented money as an accounting system to tie all those values together and make it easy to exchange. It is, at it’s heart, a very simple system. It’s also a system that gives people the most incentive to create as many things as their energy will allow, for others to use. This is why capitalist societies prosper, while communist or socialist ones generally don’t.

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Communism is not a 'political system', it's evolved capitalism.

COMMUNISM IS HERESY, IN SUCH A SOCIETY, THE LAMBS OF GOD ARE FORCED TO WORK TO PROVIDE FOR THE DEMONS, HERETICS, AND THE SINNERS!! IT IS A HAVEN ONLY TO VISCIOUS BLOOD-DRAINING PARASITES!!!

SUCH A SYSTEM IS UNHOLY!!

LOOK TO ROME!!
LOOK TO ANCIENT GREECE!!!

THESE ARE THE HOMES OF OUR ANCESTORS, BASTIONS OF DEMOCRACY AND HOLY REPUBLIC!!!

HEAR MY SERMON, SINNERS AND BE ENLIGHTENED BY THE HOLY WORD OF GOD!!!!

>>724366032
I am not sure what you are asking here.

Cuba is a good example of democracy if you ignore Western media accounts of it and actually investigate it. There are academic papers written on the subject (obviously not the ones written by Rand corporation, etc.) as well as books. You can also observe their parliament in action. If you live there you get a better feel for it.

I lived in South Korea and got a feel for the politics while I was there. The mayor of my town was indicted for corruption. The principal of the school where I taught bought his job, and used it to get bribes from local businesses. Corruption in that "democracy" is rampant. Just look at Park Geun Hye.

>>724366489

That's not a falsifiable claim. Wtf am I supposed to do with that other than post it on fb and hope people mistake it as profound?

>>724366339
>In capitalist societies, whatever you create is yours.

Simply not true. What workers create gets taken by the capitalist to be sold on the market

>>724366095
Hm? Personal property is not void under communism. Common misconception. People own their cars, their houses, etc. If the country goes to war and the state needs the steel, it must be given up. That's logical as it is an existential threat. But otherwise it is owned privately. What is not allowed is the use of capital to build wealth. Instead the state builds the economy for the benefit of all citizens.

>>724366591
There are academic papers written about everything, friendo. Cite something for me to read.

>>724366674
Now, because real life examples are always better than theories, let’s run through one of the sharpest capitalist-socialist experiments we’ve witnessed in the years since A Communist Manifesto was written: China and the Koreas.

China with its vast lands, population, technology, decided to adopt communism. It plunged into a poverty so bad that millions of people starved to death. Nothing was being produced, not food, not houses, not clothing, nothing. Until they got fed up and switched back to a state directed capitalist expansion, which has seen them unleash prosperity on a level that has them now as the second most powerful nation, behind the US. And the Western powers had little to do with their communist fall, and their current capitalist rise.

>>724366339
Yeah, you have a basic misunderstanding of capitalism here. Ask the GM worker if he owns the car he just built.

>>724366872
The Koreas: during the Japanse occupation of the Korean peninsula, the then allies America and Russia got together and freed the two Koreas. The Soviet occupied North was pushed towards Communism, while the American occupied South was opened to capitalist democracy. Decades later, what is the result? Seoul is a financial center, has hosted the Olympics, Korean film and entertainment has poured out into the world, exporting their culture, Samsung, HTC and more are leading the world in mobile technology, and the country has the best Internet, some of the wealthiest citizens, etc. It has, even far more than China, moved from third world to first world. What about it’s Communist North Korean brother who started in the same spot with them? We all know.

>>724361517
>Low prostitution rate
What a dick he is.

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anyone who belives in communism today is either mentally handicapped or a child...

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>>724365951
Stop trying to use buzzwords to sound smart and explain how the numerous valid points ITT are wrong..
>>724364548
>>724364194
>>724364100

You're a vapid, indoctrinated tool with nothing but name-calling and hot air about "muh free stuff though!" It's amazing you don't have the self-awareness to see that.

>>724366872
Sure, that does not mean that workers own the goods they produce through their labor. The capitalist does that, and he sells them on a market for a profit

>>724366924
We can go on and on. African communist failures in Ethiopia (mass starvation), central Africa (dictatorial leaders, mass starvation), Cuba (great education, but mass poverty, people swimming over the oceans to escape to better countries-including Tony Montana lol), Vietnam (only just abandoned communism, still incredibly poor although its economy is slowly picking up).

When all these people have gone through these theories and proven that communism is never workable in a large scale society (unfortunately, we can’t all live at Indian tribe level forever), I don’t understand why ordinarily smart people will keep preaching about it. When you say “everyone will have everything”, first understand that if no one makes those things, no one will have them. Criticize capitalism if you must, but when the poverty level in the average capitalist country is a princely income in most poor countries, and an astonishing sum of money in any communist one, you’d have to be a little off to think the communism is the way to go.

>>724366806

Ah, I see. Then what's the difference between Communism and Democratic Socialism? The State as a formal economic administrator as opposed to collective worker groups?

>>724366845
http://www.democracycuba.com/

>>724366909
You are misinterpreting the shit out of his statement. Those cars are owned by the owner of the company. The worker is paid by the owner for building the car. The Owner has a car to sell and the worker has money to feed his family. The scales are equal here, bucko.

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>>724360644
Comrade!!

>>724367024
>Stop trying to use buzzwords to sound smart and explain how the numerous valid points ITT are wrong..

No. It's more fun to mock you for your dumb posts

>>724367076
Democratic socialism is another name for capitalism with strong social programs (at least as it is implemented in Scandinavia). Communism at base is the dictatorship of the proletariat. Yes, the collectivization of workers, and the formal incorporation of those collectives into the system of state power.

>>724366339

Except the strongest incentive in modern capitalist society *isn't* to create things.

The strongest incentive, by far, is to merely *own* things and collect rents. It disproportionately rewards unproductive behavior. Look at any real estate mogul; they aren't creating anything per se. They're just engaging in arbitrage (no value added).

>>724365669
But muh cuba

>>724367214
How could "In capitalist societies, whatever you create is yours" be interpreted as "In capitalist societies, what you create is not yours, but you will be compensated for a small sum of the value of your creation"?

>>724367214
He stated that you own what you make. He is trying to criticize communism in saying this. He is saying that in communism you don't own what you make. But actually, you don't own what you make under capitalism. Ask the software engineer working for any software company, do you own your code? No. The company does. That's capitalism.

>>724367388

Ah, gotcha. Additionally, where do Communists derive the moral authority to enforce said dictatorship? Standard consent of the governed argument, or something else?

>>724367214

> Implying the owner invented the notion of a car
> Implying the owner invented the model of car he sells
> Implying the owner invented any of the equipment used in the creation of said car
> Implying the owner does anything bu collect rent

>>724366924
China is able to 'game the system' due to control over economy by a central government. Freezing intrest rates, setting artificial currency exchange rates ect. This has allowed the chinese to manipulate world market's to their advantage. As an example how many 'made in America' are only assembled on American soil using Chinese steal? I'm looking at you auto industry.
The theory of Marxist economic progression remains solid. Capitalism to global capitalism to socialism to global socialism to communism. The succes of china is their ability to retool their economy from a communist one to a nationl socialism. The failure of north korea is the same as the failure of the USSR. Namely their failure to transition to a socialist society and instead the adoption of an oligarchy dominated by a dictatorship regime.
TL;DR The communist train is coming it's just going to take a couple of centuries.

> communism is never workable in a large scale society (unfortunately, we can’t all live at Indian tribe level forever),
fucking this

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>>724367600
Hmm, so in communism the worker does not own what he created, and in capitalism, the worker does not own what he created..
Does that mean.. that communist nations where in fact state-capitalist???

>>724366339

>In capitalist societies, whatever you create is yours.

Absolutely false. The vast majority of wage slaves in capitalist society produce more financial value than they make. The inherent mechanism of capitalism promotes a upper class paying people less than the value of their production, which you then in turn, sell for profit.

The easiest way to look at this, is how children who make your clothes in Bangladesh get paid almost nothing, to work 16 hours a day in a sweatshop. A product of capitalism. You can't sell the lower and middle class pants that they make themselves in America, because the profit margins just aren't there. You would have to charge too much to make any reasonable amount of money. So you go to a country that's impoverished, establish a factory there, and pay them dirt for something you will ship back to the wealthy nations to sell for a real markup.

The best part? People will pay hundreds of times the amount it cost to produce these pants, and then donate them to charity when they're done with them, to be shipped back to the country that you've established your business in.

That's how capitalism functions. You don't own what you make. Someone else owns what you make.

And bringing up money shows how clueless you are. Financial systems existed far before, and will exist far after the current political systems were in place. Money isn't tied to a political system.

>>724367592
You're talking about two different things. When a worker takes a job, he works for his pay.
When someone builds a car on his own, he owns the car. He can't just build a car though because he doesn't own the materials. If he wants to, he can take out a loan to buy these things and build the car. Then it is his. Nothing is free, my friend.

>>724367903

No? It just means states are inherently tyrannical institutions and all of them need to steal to prop themselves up.

Communism has never worked. Unless we're talking about killing civilians.

Btw, bitch.

Welfare and other social program's created by whites kept the black race from extinction.

the low IQ ethnicity that are blacks simply cannot survive without help from superior races.

Women only fuck black boys if they are paid an incredible amount, if they were sexually abused or if they have severe issues with their father.

Even with assistance, the black race is dying. The facts behind this divisive, rare fetish are that a handful of rounded up black males fuck women with deep vaginas that are paid a higher amount to be with the them than they are when they fuck their white male counterparts.

The black race is lower IQ and inherently easier to control and manipulate. It is in the best interest of corporations to keep them alive and make them seem relevant in the gene pool. If black people were to be the majority, the population would follow trends to an even larger degree, mindlessly buy things they don't need to an even larger degree, and be far more addicted to instant gratification.

When a lowly woman decides to have sex with a black male, she is forever completely debased. This is why she does not usually share this fact. There is no going back because she can never gain even 10% of the respect she once had.

This is why black women are actually much more likely to date a white man then white women are to date a black man.

Black males have no discipline, no work ethic, little intellect, little cleanliness, no ambition, and are addicted to hedonism and instant gratification. This is why they need government assistance in the financial realm, and government assistance overall to control their every move. Without the government, they would live in huts, spread disease, enslave and kill each other, literally huff shit to get high, inbreed, and eventually die off. They cannot think for themselves, let alone think for the righteousness of humankind as a whole.

>>724367745
The moral authority stems from the theft of power that has been perpetrated by any oligarchic system. The majority has the authority to govern. The productive people are the ones who build society, not the alleged "job creators" who do nothing but skim wealth from the labour of others.

>>724368059

Why is "buying something" a legitimate claim on that thing, especially with respect to capital?

Why does the fact that someone hypothetical traded electronic abstractions of pieces of paper trump natural law?

>>724367600
Tell me, why doesn't the software engineer make the software on his own?

>>724367899
You are mistaking the commune for communism. For an example of a functioning large scale communist economy, see the USSR, 1917-1950.

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>>724360644

>>724368068
True but this does not contradict the fact that communist nations are state capitalist

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>>724367600
>Ask the software engineer working for any software company, do you own your code? No. The company does. That's capitalism.

Maybe ask the software engineer if they signed a contract, of their own free will, upon an agreement of salary to work for that company. That same software engineer, in a capitalist country, is free to write whatever code he/she wants on his/her own and sell it to the highest bidder without anyone getting in the way and still retaining ownership of said code. That's not possible under communism.

How fucking uneducated are you exactly? The mental gymnastics you have to do for this shit to sound sane in your mind is astounding.

>>724360644
You bitch in the future won't be any worker, only robots and machines, outdated ideology is outdated.

>>724368176

If the authority stems from historical oppression, does that mean communist nations lose moral authority as time passes from the revolution?

Agreed, I don't fancy the idea of fat cats dictating terms to the populace, but I similarly don't see where the state has a similar authority to steal, dictate, and allocate arbitrarily (albeit with popular input).

>>724367397
Collect rent, invest in new property, create more profitable homes/stores/storage/whatever, collect more rent. Do all of this with specialized knowledge and experience lowering the costs, improving quality, and providing the bankroll for new tech. When there's competition the consumer wins, when trillion dollar corporations or governments prevent that it doesn't matter what kind of -ist you are, your wallet and your tight little asshole are getting screwed. Part of the duties of a government is protecting the little guy from the wealthy and from foreign governments; now uncle Sam is wearing fishnets and whoring out to big business. It's the people's duty to correct this perversion.

>>724368301
>>724368376
amen, the thing communists fail to understand is that capital is productive and is a part of society no matter what, the only difference is if capital id privately or publicly owned..

>>724367884
The owner created the company. The owner started the whole thing. It is his because he bought it. If you buy a car, it is yours. If you buy machines to make cars, they are yours, if you buy blueprints for a car, they are yours, if you buy materials to build a car, they are yours and after all of that buying, you buy the labor required to build the car and you pay the worker to build it. That car belongs to the business owner, not the worker.

>>724368301
In a pure capitalist system - in a vacuum, essentially - there is nothing to stop him from doing so. He can write good code, then sell it on the open market and make good money. But if he is competing with companies that own the means of distributing software, well, that code just ain't gonna sell. Because people just won't be exposed to it.

>>724368376
Still that does not mean the engineer owns what he created.
>Repeating Econ 101 dogma just makes you look ridiculous btw

>>724368090
Racism is fucking stupid. I spent six years in africa and I can tell the problem isn't with the people it's with the culture. There is an indoctrination of tribal culture that goes back five thousand years and is fucking retarded. If you ever wondered why there were so many corrupt assholes in africa it's because the 'corrupt' ones are the smart Africans that realized how fucked African culture is and got smart. The only thing that will save Africa is a dedicated army ready to replace tribal politics with ANY THING ELSE at the point of a gun.
Genetics have nothing to do with it.

>>724368590
kek

>companies that own the means of distributing software

in a capitalist society no one can stop you from selling your work

>>724368355

Fair enough. Capitalism is a system *defined* by it's lack of state involvement in economic affairs. To call a system state-capitalist would be like describing a color as not-red red.

>>724368376
Let me ask you this, then. Is it under their own free will that software coders took their pay levels in Silicon Valley?

Well, let's look at that. Apple, Microsoft, Google and other major software companies made deals with each other that they would not compete for each other's coders. Meaning that salaries would not rise due to competition. So even in this highly paid elite job, the worker is getting shafted. It's not a free market - it's collusion.

Take the example of the unskilled labourer. Do you think the person who takes a job at Walmart is doing so of their own free will? When the alternative is to starve to death, that's not free will. The issue is that there is not a fair wage available for the worker. Unions have been legislated out of existence. There's no collective bargaining power. So who has freedom here? Walmart, to choose another worker? Or the worker, to choose another terrible job?

>>724368692
>Still that doesn't mean the engineer owns it
Actually it does. That's kind of the point of copyright laws and other legislation that specifically protect ownership rights, idiot. Stop falling back on corny tripe when you get proven wrong and just accept that you are, in fact, wrong. That isn't even econ 101 shit, that's like middle-school level shit that the average kid who finished 9th grade knows.

>>724368513
The state is not stealing! I don't get where you are getting that from.

And moral authority stems from popular sovereignty - the principle of governance by the people. In fact, you have hit on something here. After a while, the proletariat should not rule society - once society is reshaped so that there is no danger of a coup by an aristocracy. The end stage of communism is the dissolution of the state.

>>724368770
Capitalism established hegemony through states, and is upheld largely with help by the state today. Textbook definitions of capitalism contradicts actually existing capitalism

>>724368544

I'd buy that if there was any indication that private investment had some sort of monopoly on good decision making, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that it's any better than a dice-roll, collective decision making, etc. Your argument also implicitly assumes that having enough wealth to invest in a venture is correlated with previous insight and future insight beyond that of a dice-roll; I have seen nothing to suggest that's true.

In business, you can tell how little a person knows by how much they talk about "experience" or "industry knowledge" abstractions as opposed to the physical theory or economic forces at work in their market place.

I agree that competition is prodigiously important; that's why it's a crime that the fantastically wealthy have a monopoly on real investment.

>>724369008
Copyright laws give capital owners property rights, not workers.

>>724368764
Talk to all the devs who got kicked off Google Play. Sure, just launch your own competing platform. That won't be hard.

Like Hearst said, if you don't like my editorial policy, start your own newspaper.

I'm sure each individual can successfully take on an established industry.

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>>724360644

>>724368578

> The owner created the company. The owner started the whole thing
In most cases, major corporations are owned by thousands, if not millions, of people who regularly buy and sell part ownership in search of profit via arbitrage. Who created GM and is still an owner?

> It is his because he bought it.
Why is protecting his claim on rent of value to society? If no one purchased the ownership of the company, the capital and labor would not disappear; the car building apparatus would still exist.

> If you buy x,y, z, they are yours
Indeed I would own those, but I'm buying goods for consumption in that example. I'm not purchasing a claim on rent.

>That car belongs to the business owner, not the worker.
Why? Because he traded abstractions of paper? Why should I be expected to pay for the law to enforce his claim on capital he didn't create?

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>>724369507
dont be sectarian bro

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>>724368945
>Meaning that salaries would not rise due to competition.

So start your own company and do things differently, literally no one will stop you.

>The issue is that there is not a fair wage
>to choose another terrible job?

You're a perfect example of the pussified generation that's pushing this pro-commie dumbshit to people who don't give two shits about it. No one owes you a fucking thing, no one said life was fair and everyone, at some point, has a job they consider "terrible." The difference is, actual adults make decisions and choices, set goals, etc to carry themselves to better situations while pussies like you just sit around whining and waiting for the government to come and hold your hand because you're such a colossal fucking failure. That's why no one takes you idiots seriously, you talk and talk and talk about "workers" when the vast majority of you sensitive faggots probably don't even know how to swing a hammer or drive a nail properly.

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/pol/ too difficult for you, reddit?

>>724369722
Trump, an example of a man who built an empire on nothing more than grit, determination, and several billion dollars of his daddy's money.

>>724368770

Well, if your question is: does the practical abstraction of communism comport with the practical abstraction of capitalism in terms of state-capitalism, I guess the answer would be "I dunno?"

Real human abstractions are complicated and frequently elude falsifiablity tests.

>>724369837
haha those faggots really think they can change 4chan

>>724369722
>implying trump isn't the result of stagnating wages and living conditions of the working class
>implying trumpians want nothing more than improved living conditions
But yeah keep talking about others not knowing manual labor soft boy

>>724369722
Man, I get tired of this whole pseudo-objectivism social darwinist ann ryand bullshit philosophy.
The market isn't equal. Certain people have advantages decided upon by birth. Namely the access to capital. The game is rigged, and if your okay with that then at least admit capitalism boils down to 'I got mine, fuck you'.

>>724360644
communism doesn't work in practice, shits not hard to understand

>>724360644
why did it fail over and over and over

>even socialism is better than this shit

>>724370254
I know there is a lot of text, but you should read the thread.

>>724370202

That's just a statement. You have provided no argument, whatsoever; why even bother posting?

>>724368764

This is false. People absolutely stop others from selling their work all the time. We have the government constantly working at stopping monopolies, unfair collusion and other shady business practices specifically because, when a capitalist market is left to it's own devices, it will create a power base that will refuse to let go of it's capital, or let others into the market.

Google and Microsoft have dealt with court cases finding them guilty of these business practices in the past, where they work specifically to inhibit the possibility of competition.

A great example is trying to make a video game.

How do you sell a video game once you made it? I can make a video game rather easily. The means are there. There's plenty of open source options for almost every resource you will need, if you don't have the skill or time to make those resources yourself. But once I throw it together, what do I do? Rent a domain and hope people come across it randomly on the internet? Pay an insane amount of money and have it marketed by another business? No. Those will result in failure, no matter how quality your product is, 99% of the time.

The only way to do it while being financially secure is to use a publisher, who will ask for ownership of your product. Who will sell it on a platform that asks for 50%+ of your profits.

This extends beyond games and into general software as well. You're either open source (IE: free), or, you're being dicked by a corporation because you are unable to get onto the market without them. You can't develop for apple devices without going through apple. You are just not allowed. Not only is it against the law, because it's a completely closed platform, but they just won't fucking let you. Same for Android and Google, though it's easier to get onto and you can run open source software there (again, which nobody will pay for).

What do you do? Pay millions to create your own smartphone platform to distribute software on?

>>724370346
tldr

>>724370536
>>724370581
why are you posting this?

>>724369164

Well, the state would have to support itself by either seizure of material assets or seigniorage. In both cases, the purchasing power of individuals is eroded without the necessary consent of the minority. That's theft, by definition.

Oh, I didn't know that; interesting. What makes communists think that institution would progress to non-state hood over reverting back to aristocracy? Isn't the threat of a return of aristocracy an excellent excuse to fabricate a new ruling class in positions of state authority? How does the proletariat combat the incentives for political leaders to fink?

whats stopping me from only making one bar of soap opposed to nikolai making 20 and getting paid the same? soon nikolai catches on and only makes one bar of soap, and so and so on.

>>724371095
sounds good to me. overproduction is killing the planet
>that is implying productivity gains has fuck all to do with wages and not the inherent technology growth of capitalism

>>724370779

Not on either side of this debate, but it's something that will always happen regardless of system. Humans are driven, for the most part, by a need to acquire as much as possible. It's a survival mechanism, Now obviously we don't need to do this anymore, in societies where you're probably going to live in most circumstances. But it's hard coded into our brains. We must have more, no matter what, to make sure us, and our children will survive.

So when we're given all the beans and told to give them out fairly, we keep a little more for ourselves. Especially when there's no incentive to not keep most for ourselves.

Same with capitalism. Why pay your workers more? You can afford it, with the markups you make, but why give them more when YOU can have more?

It has always been this way. It will always be this way until we get rid of our inherent need.

"Communism is so hopelessly utopian, so basically flawed in its assumptions and premises, that it really just doesn't correspond to reality"

Which is totally true and mentioned before. Communism assumes you can make people work for nothing, by forcing them to believe in some higher cause that magically fixes everything. I think the collapse of all communist states has shown it doesn't work like that. People need to be motivated that benefits them directly. People don't work day in day out 40 days a week without getting something back for it. The only place where that works is a tightly knit religious cult, and only on people who are vulnerable to being pressed into such groups.

Another faulty premise of communism is the idea that equal is fair. It's not. Some people have more talent than others, some work harder than others, as a result they should be rewarded differently.

Another faulty premise of communism is the silly idea that you can control a complex modern economy using a centralised bureaucracy, that has no incentive to perform its best.tldr op is a retard

>>724370779
If you consider taxation theft, then sure, whatever.

>>724369722

I always love it when the people that pull out the "No one owes you a damn thing!" card are the ones who support the ability to buy claims on rent. Why does anyone owe them the enforcement of their claim via my tax dollars?

The only reason I can;t just claim that I own things and collect rent is that I don't have enough cash to buy off politicians. If you didn't make, there's no legitimate way for you to own it/no public incentive for enforcing the claim.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Also, nice ad hominem in the face of danger.

I really want to be dictator of the usa. by far I'd instate a communist rule and makes the usa a third world control just because I can.

>>724371632
>you already are a third world country

>>724371418

I guess I do. Not that taxation/theft is wrong, just that whatever your taxing had better be pretty damn important (worth stealing for), and I'm not sure that anything the public would come up with would necessarily qualify.

Does communism allow for the limitation of power through constitution or equivalent?

>>724371632
>implying the usa couldn't make communism work
One of the only countries in the world with the variety of resources that could make national communism work. Cry more cunt.

>>724371865
The United States is the world’s only superpower, dominating the world’s economic and political systems. With the strongest military and economy, the United States is capable of global power projection, giving it significant influence worldwide. Few countries dare to oppose America’s political agenda.

>>724371935
>implying a dictator like me wouldn't abuse its people. I'm not for the people, I'm for me, myself, and I. I think this communism thing could actually work in my favor.

>>724363306

The lead paint chips falling into your wounds build character

>>724371291
>Communism assumes you can make people work for nothing,
No communist system ever espoused or implemented that. Nor is it part of the theory.

>I think the collapse of all communist states has shown it doesn't work like that.
The collapse of some communist states has to be understood in context. For example, the USSR when it collapsed was an imperial state competing on a world scale with the United States. It was not the failure of a communist system, but the failure of an imperial system.

You also have to understand that each state that purports to implement communism does so in its own unique way. Cuba is the best example of a communist implementation that withstood the counterrevolution. But the Soviet Union pre-1950 is another good example. You can't lay the end of the USSR at the feet of communism because it was engaged in empire building and an arms race rather than in building the state.

>People need to be motivated that benefits them directly.
Partially correct. People benefit a great deal under socialized conditions. Essentially the common person gets to share in the wealth through subsidized or free social programs. That's a direct benefit. But beyond that, people are capable of caring for each other, and self-sacrifice.

> People don't work day in day out 40 days a week without getting something back for it.
Many people barely scrape by working longer hours than that. It does not prove that capitalism is a success, but rather the opposite.

>>724363342
My dick is 13'' and all cum on site when witness to it's glory.

Wow, making shit up with no evidence is easy.

>>724372169
>established three party Democratic government
>hurr dictator is part of communism durr
Good luck with your IQ anon. It's hard out here for a retard.

>>724371912
Honestly if you consider taxation to be theft, there's not much point my explaining communism to you.

Enjoy the libertarian utopias of Rwanda and Ethiopia.

>>724360644
Tell me of one country that thrived with communism

>>724371291

Let's dissect this post.

>Communism assumes you can make people work for nothing

No. Communism assumes you can have people work for the product of their labour.

>I think the collapse of all communist states has shown it doesn't work like that.

Not every communist state has collapsed, or is collapsing. Some have thrived. Some have evolved to work in a world dictated by a globalized economy, which is a necessary change in a world that does not embrace communism.

>People don't work day in day out 40 days a week without getting something back for it.

Mere survival is enough of a motivator to get anyone who is stuck at a minimum wage to work 40+ hours a week. They don't have to make anything. I mean, we used to get people to work in cotton fields with the motivator that if they didn't, we'd beat them half to death. You don't have to financially incentivize labour.

>Some people have more talent than others, some work harder than others, as a result they should be rewarded differently.

But the few people who own most of the capital in western society did not come into that within their lifetimes. Their fathers had that capital. They simply retained it, and leveraged their power to obtain more capital. There was no talent or skill when it came to this.

>Another faulty premise of communism is the silly idea that you can control a complex modern economy using a centralised bureaucracy, that has no incentive to perform its best

The united states government is a centralised bureaucracy, that has no incentive to perform it's best. The chinese government is a centralised bureaucracy, that has no incentive to perform it's best. They will not stop existing because there is some level of incompetence. They don't have to deal with internal competition. They make rules that businesses have to follow. They do so regularly.

And these two governments have produced two of the best economies in modern times.

You are clueless.

>>724372237
>People benefit a great deal under socialized conditions. Essentially the common person gets to share in the wealth through subsidized or free social programs.

This is not communism, it is social democracy. Social democracy has always been implemented as to pacify workers and stop them from overthrowing capitalism

>>724360644
Communism works in theory but like string theory, it has no practical application

>>724372162
Very true. Its military might rests on people who have no economic future, so they join the military. Then they go abroad and fight wars in the interests of the power elites. When they return, wounded, the state won't pay for proper medical care.

>>724371291

Not a fan of commies, but...

Capitalism is founded on the belief that you can get people to work for mess than their marginal product, just because a guy hypothetically own a thing; that also seems ridiculous.

> People don't work day in day out 40 days a week without getting something back for it.
Pls see anyone working an office job for more money than it takes to support themselves; people love their chains.

>they should be rewarded differently
How should they be rewarded, exactly? Why is your suggested allocation better informed than anyone elses?

>that has no incentive to perform its best
That's true of most modern corporations. Zero-based budgeting is en-vogue right now and has nothing to do with long term prosperity or productivity.

>>724372618
just like capitalism then

>>724372546
You're right. I was trying to illustrate an aspect of communism (socialism) to show that people benefit from the redistribution of wealth.

Although social democracies have social programs, so does communism.

>>724372315
Would providing you with evidence convince you? I doubt it. But feel free to watch Sicko if you are capable of absorbing new information.

>>724372477
Russia. Cuba. China.

>>724372430

Why not? I don't believe that there shouldn't be taxes; quite the contrary. I support alot of social programs including universal basic income, parks and rec, national defense, the EPA, etc. I just think that everything we tax for should be unambiguously important and unobtainable through other means. My contention is that if communism is a dictatorship by the public, than that would mean the state is beholden to the *whims* of the public too, which might not be worth the theft. How do communists prevent fallacious populist expenditure?

>>724372489
You're confusing socialism and communism and some made up thing you've just invented. In Communism there is no private property. You can't reward someone in that sense because they can just appropriate it for themself. You could maybe like reward them with a nice picture you made or something.

In Socialism, rewards for work are set democratically. So rather than someone being rewarded with hundreds of millions in dividens because they inherited massive amounts of shares, wages can be democratically deceided by the workers of an organisation. If someone did well, they can be rewarded. If they did badly, they can suffer. Take Bob Crow in the UK, head of the RMT union. He gets some stick for being the head of a union but getting paid in the £100,000 pound range, far more than the people he represents. The thing is, that figure was democratically decided on by the members of the union because he is amazing at his job. When every other union in the Uk has been shrinking, he's lead the RMT on a massive recruitment drive. While other unions constantly cave in to the government, he's won some great concessions.

That is talent and hard work being rewarded through democratic decision rather than capitalist decision making.

I would say that this is your take on communism as based on the Soviet style countries, but I'm fairly sure you've advocated the position that they weren't fair a and equal and were massively unequall; - just in different ways from Capitalist society, so that wouldn't make any sense even within your own internal narrative.

>>724373030
Education of the public. Use of expertise in budgeting. The populace does not make the budget. They elect people, and they have a voice in governance.

>>724373084
>In communism there is no private property
Common misconception. It's hard to argue against a thing which you clearly know nothing about.

>imagine you wanna start making alcohol to drink

>You do. Make your own style

>Try it. You die. But you write your recipe down

>Someone finds it. Reads it. It sounds amazing. Way "better" than the proven methods.

>Other guy makes it. Dies

>Repeat about a dozen so times


>Only times it works is with assistance from good brewers

>Years later someone finds the recipe. Wants to try it

"Dude. It pretty much kills or hospitalised anyone who drinks it"

>"Fucking faggot Nazi bitch. You just a pussy. It's way better than that factory made shit. Try it try it"

>Entire generation of hipsters want all alcohol to be this exact recipe

This is Communism.

>>724373362
In what form would private property exist in a classless stateless society?

>>724373272

So the communist safe guard against mob rule is the instantiation of a republic? If all authority and rents now travel through the state, and representatives rule the state, how does the republic differ from aristocracy? Are term limits and expulsion through election sufficient?

>>724373084

The issue here is that you don't know my internal narrative because I have not proposed which "side", if any, I stand on in this debate.

I simply come here to pick apart posts. Not post my own opinion on the matter.

>>724372392
hey trump got elected. what makes you think someone cant weasel their way in by telling people what they want to hear and then getting elected?
in4 it's impossible
nothing is impossible

>>724373566
Good question. I really don't know. But that's not communism. It's a theoretical outcome of communism. I guess that it would be a post-scarcity society. Think Star Trek with its replicators.

>>724373628
Because the state incorporates the proletariat.

>>724373566

I guess it would just what you can personally defend. Sounds like barbarism.

So let's just finish this with key questions. What makes you think a communist state will ever work?
Taking into account human nature that is. What makes you think will be willing to work without any direct incentives?

The big issue with communism can be illustrated with the following dilemma:
- A communist state can only work if everyone (or at least a vast majority) is committed to make it work and willing to chip in.

- However since we don't know how others will act we cannot know for sure the system will work. The laziness of others would result in misery and the collapse of the system despite your efforts.

So if a person is presented with the following choices:
- Being lazy
- Actually working hard

Why would he work hard?

If he works hard he can either be "wealthy" (wealth here is not only restricted to monetary gain) if everyone chips in or live in misery if the rest does nothing. Since there is no direct reward for his efforts he has to hope the rest works hard like him.

If he doesn't work hard he can also either be "wealthy" or live in misery.

So considering in both scenarios both outcomes are possible and those outcomes are solely dependent on the decision of the rest of society he would be better of being lazy. Because if he's lazy and the rest of society works hard not only will he still be wealthy but he'll have a lot of free time and he'll be able to do whatever he wants. And if the rest of society is lazy as well, sure he'll live in misery but at least he wouldn't have worked hard for that misery.

This dilemma is actually also one of the reasons why many don't act environmentally responsibly. People like to say "Me polluting less won't change anything", and it is true, the actions of one individual won't change a lot. And since people cannot see the direct result of their individual actions they won't give a sh*t. (Hence why the government has to intervene through subsidies or taxes)

>>724374450

Aren't most groups of democratically elected officials cess pools of corruption? If the populace we currently have (in America) has resolved in the comically flawed representation that we have now, what makes communist representation, determined by that same populace, immune to the same problems?

>>724374675

I mean, we have about as strong as an incentive as possible to not work hard in most modern capitalist societies with high GDPs.

The zenith of capitalist achievement is to be a person who owns claims on a lot of rent; We celebrate owners like Trump, Mark Cuban and Edison, but not creators like Oppenheimer, Tesla, or just the guy down the street actually flipping burgers.

If people will work hard here, where they can never achieve financial independence through production alone, I see no reason they wouldn't work hard anywhere under any system.

>>724374675
Because it has worked, and continues to work today.

People who live in communist states have a stake in the rule of the country. That's why counter-revolution has to be propped up by foreign states and the wealthy elites. Sometimes they succeed in bringing down the revolution.

Laziness is a symptom of alienation. Workers are alienated from their labour in capitalism.

Hard work results in rewards in a communist system. It's a fallacy to assume otherwise.

People feeling disengaged and disempowered is behind the attitude that their actions are meaningless. Communism is about empowering the common person.

>>724374722
Clearly communism is not immune to the same problems. But it is an empowerment of the people, and so it is worth fighting for.

>>724366909
U are a fucking retard.

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Why leftists support the importation of muslims into Western countries?

>>724375859

> No
> u

Thanks for the amazing discourse; really learned a lot from this exchange.

>>724375918
Why do rightists paint all Muslims as terrorists?

>>724363515
>Communist states
No, son... State capitalism isn't communism.

>>724363829
>Cuba is the best counterexample to that argument, because it is a successful implementation of communism.
Holy fucking shit... I know a bitch that travels to Cuba and she told me all about it. She was clear when she said Fidelism isn't communism.

Again, state capitalism isn't communism. You never saw a communist state.

>B-but muh communism was never tried.
I didn't say that you dumb fucking faggot. I said it was never achieved. Was tried but all the times ended in a capitalist dictatorship. That's why you call it a utopia. If you don't have 100% of the people going for communism, you'll not have communism. You'll have people fight against it and the only way to get rid of those people is by jailing or killing them. But that ends in a capitalist dictatorship, not in communism.

Those stupid right wingers need to stop calling state capitalism of communism. It confuses the dummies and is intelectually dishonest.

>>724367028
Just want to say that the worker never owned the materials to make. Only th skill which he traded for money. He would never own the end good as he never owned the material and traded for labor.

Look at a car line. The worker does not own the car, because he did not own the steel, the tools or the factory. He has traded the knowledge he possess for a wage. So that is why the owner keeps the end product.

But communists assume that if you build something you automatically should own it Regardless of outside factors

>>724360644
which communist nation is richer because of it?

>>724360644
why dont you explain how your communism will succeed while all others failed? It's a utopian pipe dream that is only possible if humans aren't in the picture. It is in it's entirety an impractical ideology that has to kill all who oppose or fail.

>>724369837
Lieber tot als rot. ( rather dead than red )
Sieg heil!

>>724376713
Nope. What is understood is that the profit derived from the enterprise comes from underpaying the worker. So the capitalist collects on the initial investment forever, gaining free money. That wealth comes from somewhere. Namely, the continued exploitation of workers.

>>724377721
wow rude

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>>724376573
>Why do rightists paint all Muslims as terrorists?
Nice try at countering the question. Muslims are seen as potential terrorists because the quran teaches Muslims to fight a holy war against all infidels, Muslims are also disliked by rightists because they are overrepresented in rape, terrorism and crime in general.

Why are leftists trying to flood the western world with Muslims? Why are you trying to avoid the question?

>>724377869
Oh shit, you uncovered the "leftist" plot to become Muslim. Yep. Because religion and communism go so well together.

First off, distinguish between "leftist" and communist. There are a lot of "leftists" who are ardently anti-communist. And I'm ardently anti-social-dem, because they are just capitalism-light.

look at the fat che tshirt wearing faggots in this thread. fucking pathetic losers

>>724377830
welcome to 4chan

>>724378080
Hey, I'm only mildly overweight. I resent that.

Also, I'm only mildly bisexual. I resent that.

Also, I don't wear Che t-shirts. I did have a Lenin t-shirt once upon a time.