>>717685194 I dunno if it can be called a "right". As I understand them, rights can be provided at no cost. For example, right to free speech, right to bear arms, right to a fair trial, etc. They only signify a lack of interference by the government.
Clean water is not always necessarily within the power of the government to provide. If your government can afford it, it should be provided, and it's somewhat higher in priority than a "privilege", but I don't think the term "right" perfectly fits.
>>717686329 It was that way in most cultures for a long time. With technological advances, it's not a viable way to live anymore.
For example, physical superiority used to matter more before we had guns to equal it out. Now, skill with firearms is much more important than mass, and there's no way to put that genie back in the bottle without getting rid of all guns.
>>717685194 It should be a right. Hell here in Canada a government agency has made the case that high speed internet should be an essential service basically saying it's your right to have access to it even in rural areas
>>717686753 No one asked to be born into this world. That's why we have rights. Because it's wrong to force people to "earn" things that they need to survive, when they didn't ask to be here in the first place.
>goes to drink local watering hole >dip face in for a quick splash to wet the whistle >CRIKEY MATE A CROCK GOT ME BY THE TONGUE >Proceed to death roll the crock, the tables have turned >crock becomes decapitated >new wall mount
Is this how you Aussies go about drinking when your water pump becomes clogged with rotting kangaroo carcasses? This is need to know.
>>717686753 Not everyone has the power to force the change necessary to improve their living conditions. We have these things called "rights" to protect those people. It is easy to say they're unimportant when you're in a good place financially, but you or your descendants could easily end up relying on the concepts of rights to ensure a decent quality of life.
>>717686790 True, a fair trial does have costs, just like an unfair one does. I don't actually know the specifics of what defines a fair trial other than the basics, so I can't actually comment much. But free speech/right to bear arms are things that require only noninterference by the government. I want to say all our rights fundamentally require a lack of interference, but I don't actually have enough evidence to make that claim, so it's probably wrong.
>>717687063 >implying rights aren't something to be defended at all costs
>>717686829 Hah trick answer it doesn't rain in Australia
Rights are man-made agreements, laws or rules or even just socially accepted norms that humanity or government agree on, typically enforced by law.
Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it doesn't exist
Fucking children I swear to god.
As for water, most humans learned a long time ago that maintaining and providing access to clean water benefits society as a whole and thus makes humanity better off collectively. This is also why we have law, money and tons of other things.
The whole american mindset of "me before you" only works when you still live in a cave and scavenge from your neighbour and only makes sense when you're 10 years old.
>>717686505 >You don't deserve water >is sick because no clean water >can't work >can't get healthy >need to have a job to deserve having clean water >sick Your argument doesn't even work in one step, what is this, kindergarten?
You're right. There are rights and there are privileges. While the US constitution guarantees the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness it says nothing about clean water.
The fact we have to pay a water bill obviously means we don't have a "right" to clean water. Oh sure we could not pay our water bill and have to get water from the stream which we'd have to boil our self but that's the price of not being able to afford your water bill.
Everything comes at a price and nothing is an inherent "right" except death and taxes.
>>717687972 You display your mental illness on /b/, I'm quite surprised you're answering this, I mean, I must be your government trying to trick you. This is the internet, something they technically can control. But instead, you believe that fluoride controls minds...? Because someone on the internet told you so? Man, you must be such a highly educated faggot. >has no idea what fluoride even is
That's the closest anyone comes to getting "rights", as most people seem to understand them. They, or someone in their place, negotiates to have it provided for them... or they go and take it for themselves.
>>717685194 Neither. Clean water is a modern invention. To call it a privilege is to overstate the case, like calling electricity a privilege. On the other hand, calling anything a right means some other person has an obligation to supply it to you, and that's manifestly bullshit.
>>717688274 nobody on the internet told me anything. i figured it out in a deep state of meditation, but you wouldn't know anything about expanding ones mind, would you? i have written complex mathematical formulas to prove it, so don't even try to question my knowledge
>>717688319 Right to life doesn't mean right to the things to keep you alive. You're not going to be slain in the street just because someone feels like it. That's what the right to life is. That if you can live you will be able to without fear of death at the hand of your government.
If right to life included all basic needs then everyone in America would have a house, car, paycheck and endless food. Fortunately this isn't how the world works and you obviously don't understand that.
>>717687528 Who said anything about scavenging from your neighbors?
If I go out and kill a deer on my own that's not taking from someone else if the other person is too lazy or unwilling to go do the same thing and that other person has no "right" to eat that food just because they choose to be a lazy faggot.
Fuck off with your commie talk and shove it up your ass.
>>717688873 I believe that is what people who call things a "right" believe. But no, I think the idea that other people have some moral obligation to provide me with things free of charge is absolute horseshit.
it's not a right unless it's dictated in your area.
it's not a right in silicon valley; there, when you pay enormous prices for rent you move into an apartment and your welcome packet tells you to NOT drink the water; the same water you bathe with. in arizona, our water comes from the colorado mountains and along the way, cows and shit fall into the fake river and die that brings it here and they filter it and chlorinate it and it's safe to drink.
>>717685194 Clean water is neither a privilege or a right, you have to find it or pay for it on your own or you don't get any. 3rd world countries can boil and purify water, but they're just too fucking stupid to figure out the process
>>717689101 >it's a right as is any other life-prolonging thing >people who take more vacations tend to live longer >ergo, I have a right to nice vacations >the state must send me to Hawaii That kind of logic is cancerous
Stupid fuck. What about when the first man picked up the first rock, or a stick? What about the first motherfucker that sharpened a point on that stick? Get rid of all guns, and we would still be in a technological age.
>>717689264 No problem. The research scientists who invented the drug don't have mortgages or cars or any bills, so they are happy to work for free, and of course the chemicals that go into the meds are all gathered without cost by people who don't expect to be paid for their labor. No one in manufacturing or distribution expects to be paid, and the machines they use are all free to them, as is the power to run them. So there is absolutely no reason why your meds should not be 100% free. >liberal logic
>>717690016 and so go to a farm and just take the food for free I'm sure the farmer who broke his back growing the food won't mind you helping yourself to the literal fruits of his labor without paying him and that water... shoot, the pipes that bring it to your house were just found that way, and the volunteers at the water company don't expect salaries.
>>717689626 No one's reactive, you basically just walked into an adult conversation with a blinking sign that reads "I'm a Moron." Good job. Fucking kids can't even form a logical thought and wonder why people don't take them seriously.
>>717685194 neither one. if you do something to get clear water, you have it. if you don't do anything and there is no water, you will die. how can it be a right? and how can it be a privilege. you just need it and the earth has it more or less
what the fuck are you all calling each other idiots for? seriously?
>>717685194 Clean water itself is not a right. The collection, treatment and consumption of water is a right that everyone should have.
As some have mentioned, within some 'societies' you cannot do this, and MUST rely on multinationals to provide you with this service, even if you would otherwise be capable of administering your own water supply.
Therefore through the monopoly of water supplies in urbanized areas, and by extension, clean water should indeed be free for all...
>>717690551 lol, i took your advice and spent .4 seconds on google. http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-03-2012/myths-canada-health-care.html written by an actual doctor MD and MS, not some sensationalist news journalist writng for thier shitty blog.
>>717690488 This moron thinks suicide is illegal because governments think "life has value."
BAHAHAHAHAHAAHA wew it must be great to be that fucking naive.
suicide is illegal because citizens are basically a pack of batteries to government. They've already predicted that "x" citizen will provide "y" amount of output for them over their lifetime through labor, work, whatever you want to call it. You taking yourself out of the picture earlier than expected screws up their numbers and it pisses them off like someone buying a pack of 5 "AA" batteries from the store and 1 of them being dead right out of the box.
That's really all there is to it. If you think any government has an intrinsic belief in the "value of life" you should read about hiroshima or the trail of tears or literally any other country's dirty laundry. Your imagination is great though.
>>717690856 unfortunately i can not, the combined processing power of the entire internet couldn't properly convey the complexity of my formulas, and what chance do you have of comprehending my mathematical genius? zero.
>>717691048 A basic ambulance ride STARTS at 600, plus equipment and distance. That's just getting there. An IV seems to be upwards of 100 (costs about $1 to make). I'm not positive on the grand total. I was a minor at the time, and my credit rating was temporarily fucked (as a MINOR) because the insurance didn't pay for the ambulance ride until someone called and bitched at them. That seems perfectly reasonable, right?
You have a right to have access to a gun if you choose to and you can afford it.
Water is no different. You have a right to access it if you choose to and can afford it.
Water bills are a thing. Why do you feel entitled to things that you don't pay for? Even if you got "free water" your taxes would still go up to pay for it. Nothing's ever free, you just want other people to fit the bill for you for whatever reason and that's not the system we live by.
If your taxes alone would go up to individually provide you "free water" would you be ok with that? I would be willing to bet you'd pitch a fit.
>>717691651 You're focusing on YOUR specific situation and trying to apply it to everyone else.
You realize ambulances are usually private businesses right? You know what existed before private businesses existed to provide a ride to the hospital? Exactly, nothing existed. You young faggots are too uneducated and entitled to realize that shit like ambulances didn't always exist and they're actually a fairly new fucking concept.
Next time you have a heart attack or a stroke, just drive yourself since you have this weird notion that people have some obligation to give a shit about you.
When you pay for an IV you're not just paying for raw materials dipshit. Do you even economics? Nothing you buy anywhere is sold at the cost to make it. Get fucking real and join the real world you imbecile.
>>717692009 You're welcome to go collect it whenever you want. Despite it "being illegal in some places" I can guarantee you its likely not illegal where you are and there are no "water police" on patrol making sure you don't hold a fucking bucket out the window.
Your argument that "but it falls from the sky" doesn't justify you being entitled to systems of infrastructure that cost literally billions of investment and construction that includes transport and purification "just because."
The only people who make these kinds of arguments either don't want to hold down a job or don't grasp the concept that other people actually do and those people expect to be paid for their work/time.
>>717692348 oh, so the results on the second page of google are where the quality journalism is? im not from north america, so i dont know much about its intricate political views and allegiances, but id trust an article about healthcare written by a doctor over a reporter.
>>717692348 You know you look really fucking stupid telling someone to "read history" when suicide has only been illegal for about 100 years and for millennia before it was actually considered honorable.
If you're that unprepared for this conversation, just say so and remove yourself instead of making yourself look even more uneducated with every post.
My point stands and you have no way to offer a scholarly rebuttal otherwise. Things like public schooling, training, etc from the time you're born up until 18 is all "investment" on the government's side. Investment with the notion that you, as an adult, will give them RETURN on their investment by becoming a productive citizen and paying taxes etc. When you usurp that by offing yourself and taking away any chance of return on their investment, it pisses them off. Thus, suicide is "illegal."
Technically its a privelege that at abytime csn be taken away. Clean water as we know it rarely if ever existed in nature as animals will piss and shit in or near it. So our clean water where we can see thru it and not worry of bacteria in it, is indeed a privilege
>>717692078 Yes, because the only ridiculous healthcare markups are the ones I've listed. You're assuming, generalizing, and just insulting me. Maybe you shouldn't have skipped debate class in college. Let me simplify this.
"People's lives are only worth the money they have." That's literally what you're defending right now. If you see no problem with that statement, then I'm just wasting my time.
>>717692417 Nothing in my post said anything about what country I'm from or what kind of healthcare system we have.
I made very valid points that you clearly can't refute. Ambulances weren't always a thing and you expect people to give you a free ride to the hospital or something out of the goodness of their heart?
How entitled could you be honestly? You clearly don't have a basic grasp on how the world works.
If we're running on assumptions here, what country DO you live in? And, assuming you're talking about the US being shit-tier because of health care, why didn't you stay wherever you are now instead of coming here for help? Like none of what you're saying makes sense honestly.
You shit talk a country for not giving you everything for nothing, yet you people still live here. What kind of logic is that? If it's so shitty, leave?
Absolutely a right. In my opinion basic needs such as air, water, food and shelter must be inalienable rights and healthcare and education should be as well. With the rise of automation, I think we'll see the need and possibly the means of creating free food, clean water, and infinite power for everyone on the planet. If it's not possible or if it doesn't happen I think we'll end up with an enormous socioeconomic divide, where very few people own almost everything, and the masses struggle in poverty to an early grave. We'll see. I'm just speculating.
>>717692931 I never said "peoples lives are only worth the money they have." You're trying to put words in my mouth to justify your entitled bullshit.
People produce products and offer services.
They sell those products/services at a mark up so they and their own families can eat and buy shit they need/want. They don't do it out of some good-hearted humanitarian "we are the world" hugfest.
You come along and expect them to sell their products/services at cost just because you're special or something.
You sound like a piece of shit tbh. Let me ask you another question:
If you had invested years of your time scraping by and researching, testing prototypes then finally succeeding at inventing an IV tube (when there were no previous examples of one in the past) would you expect a payoff/reward for your time/effort?
Of course you would. Why is it any different because it's a different person and you're the one who has to pay? I know these are inconvenient questions for your little narrative but don't try to stick your head out of your little bubble without getting hit in the face with the real world.
>>717692728 This is just why I said read history. Suicide was always illegal in ecclesiastical courts, and in all Christian countries for more than a millenia. For example, suicide was illegal in Elizabethan England, which was, derp, more than a hundred years ago. Protip: you're a shallow, uneducated dipshit.
>>717692989 wow, you're an idiot. you basically just confirmed that you're american. you fucking dolt. >Ambulances weren't always a thing and you expect people to give you a free ride to the hospital or something out of the goodness of their heart? Really? ambulances haven't always existed? you fucking moron. Oh, Ambulances in my country are free btw, and some of the best response times in the world. >why didn't you stay wherever you are now instead of coming here for help? I've never been to your shitty country, and honestly, if i happened to end up in that cesspool and get injured, i would try my absolute hardest to fly home for treatment.
>>717693498 Oh, and suck this too: "Self-murder" became a crime under common law in England in the mid-13th Century, but long before that it was condemned as a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church." Source: BBC
>>717693388 Says the guy insisting I expect everything for free. You're putting words in my mouth, pot. >hurr durr what are taxes for Not like basically every other first world country has government healthcare that's paid for by taxes or anything. Oh wait...
>>717693216 I'm not pissy, I asked a very simple question. I didn't call anyone else's country "shitty" or "fucked up."
I'm asking why idiots immigrate here en masse if it's such a terrible place to live. Like what's the rationale? "This country is so terribly shitty and fucked up, I've gotta live there." That's insane for real. For all the shit you talk, you still come here because it's better than whatever place you're moving from, plain and simple.
Cry all you want idgaf but it's a large part of why people can't stand immigrants these days. You can accept it or not but don't act like it's not a self-created problem. Like I wouldn't welcome someone into my home who's just going to piss on the walls and tell me how the painting in my dining room sucks balls.
>>717693646 Obviously the people migrating there aren't the people saying it's shitty. Simple. As to why people do migrate there; because it's the most relevant country. People don't know any better. Migrating to Canada, Sweden, New Zealand, Australia etc would be much more viable options.
>>717693535 It's funny you're so scared to say what country you're from where things are perfect because you know it'd take about 2 minutes for 20 people in this thread to tear you to shreds but you want to smuggly talk shit about US healthcare.
Ok, habib, keep mumbling your bullshit lazy entitled faggot.
Yet, if we're to argue that we're to feed the people, it follows that we probably also should be giving them clean water to drink. It's more that clean water (i.e. the water that comes out of taps in, say, Canada) is not a natural given right to all living things, but people strive to artificially instate it as a given right, because of their ethics/morals. It's nothing more than a given privilege these days, it's importance magnified, because it's, well, water.
Which, again, means it's up to Nestle to decide as to whether you get to drink clean water.
>>717693774 so are housing and food and clothes basically everything people work for should be free and so no one should need to work at all and somehow with no one working, all things will just appear
>>717693794 >i would rather be a mudslime you're in luck >>717693901 not a britbong, just quoting the BBC to show suicide has been illegal for at least 800 years, contrary to what some abject retard was claiming
>>717693619 answer the question i asked or shut the fuck up, honestly.
if you created an innovative and completely new invention that made peoples lives better (ie an IV tube or x-ray machine), you're telling me you wouldn't expect an exponentially greater reward than someone flipping burgers?
You must be a euro to think that "just because these other countries do it it must be right."
>>717694254 >what are taxes If you're gonna make that argument, then when the goal of automation is achieved, the majority of the population will just up and die because there are no jobs left, and that's just how it is. Boo hoo. If humans aren't entitled to basic needs, then life itself clearly doesn't have intrinsic value.
>>717693805 >all the people immigrating to the US are just ignorant and aren't going there for opportunity or anything
People actually fucking believe this. kek
What the fuck does "being relevant" even have to do with immigration? Like what are you even talking about? You think people come to the US because they see too many billboards in their own country or something? Fucking hilarious, you make 0 sense.
>>717694370 >implying doctors in Europe don't get paid for their experience >implying no one in Europe cares about patents >implying the only way for a product to be paid for is by the person who needs it >lol what are roads? Yeah, I'm just wasting my time here. I'd try to see things from your point of view, but we can't BOTH shove our heads up your ass. As impressive as it is, there's just not enough room.
>>717694607 if your good ol' american education system was even semi-decent, you might have the reading comprehension to actually figure it out, as i have actually said where i'm from twice already. but i'm not going to make it that easy for you, you will have to learn how to read first.
Humans are just animals with higher functioning brains. Whether or not you agree this is a dog eat dog world and it will always be that way. The weak will struggle or perish and the strong will take. There is no equality in this world and there never will be because it's written into our DNA
>>717694833 I didn't imply any of that and you keep avoiding my question because you're slowly starting to realize how retarded your position is when you're seeing it in front of your face on a computer screen for the first time.
>>717695074 Your mind is in a small box Example: I think life is valuable, so I collect food for the local food pantry and participate in feeding the hungry. This is called charity. The people I feed don't have a right to my labor or food. I give it to them freely. Oddly enough, all the people who scream that life's necessities are rights never seem to make it to the food pantry. You can't imagine that someone can value life without thinking all of life's needs are rights. This is because you are small-minded.
>>717695363 The problem arises when people DON'T pay for it and still feel entitled to that product. Stop with the "collective" bullshit. If I pay for water, I'm entitled to drink water out of the tap in my house. That doesn't give me a right to drink it out of your house when I don't pay for it and vice versa.
Why is this a difficult concept for your fucking retards?
America is like the fat kid whose mother constantly tells him he's the most handsome boy in the world, and he goes on believing it. then one day wonders why no girls like him, and can't understand why the other kids make fun of him, so he buys a big gun and shoots them all. the end.
>>717685194 It's both a right and a privilege. We should work hard to make clean water accessible to everyone, including people who are not able to work for it.
It's also somewhat of a privilege because not everyone has it sadly enough, so we really should be helping other people to get it. We DO have the technology to give the entire world clean water, we just choose not to because we are selfish.
Don't mean to sound like a white knight. But I will always be a moral-fag.
The only fundamental right anyone has is the right to die. It's the only one nobody can take away from you. All else has to be earned, fought for, seized, taken, bought, negotiated, and/or produced. All you dickless social warriors are in for one hell of an awakening when your government is not there to coddle your panzy ass.
>>717695606 well that house has paid for it so its fine. this collective thing is not bullshit and yeah theres gonna be ways to dodge paying for it but without collective backing there would not be clean water
>>717696131 Oh yeah corn with 10 chromosomes... really compares to humans 23. Leftist already bitch and moan about GMO corn. What do you think those cucks would think if that was attempted on humans to remove the literal thing that drives us to survive
>>717696534 Humans have 23 chromosomes? No way. And, I'm sorry, can you better describe to me what it is, exactly, that literally drives us to survive? And, why anyone would be removing it, if someone is only going to write new entries into the DNA?
>>717696249 >You tell him the truth. How is this exclusive to America? Humans as a species are a deluded sort. Placing meaning and purpose to things that don't matter, in a universe indifferent to our very existence.
>>717696947 Not really. You remember when we were talking about clean water being a right or a privilege? By extension, we need to have a conversation as to what is a right and what is a privilege, and if we do that, we have to bring up the nature of man, or just nature itself, to determine what the hell a right even is.
>>717696753 Unless you failed 9th grade science. Humans have 23 chromosomal pairs in each cell in their body you nitwit. Which has thousands of sequences within each pair which would all have to be "rewritten" to take out base human instinct (i.e the will to survive). Base human instinct is that same thing that makes us a dog eat dog world. The thing that says "eat drink sleep reproduce" the thing that says leave behind the weak and the dead and become stronger to survive. You're saying to overwrite that in our DNA so "We all think the same and that everyone has a right to clean drinking water". You're asking to take away the will to survive.
>>717685194 If it takes the work and effort of others to produce, then it is not a right. It is counterintuitive, I know. That is because water is everywhere and a natural part of the earth. The difference is we are not talking about the ability to go to a lake and take a sip, we are talking about people building pipelines to direct water to facilities that treat it and the pump it through pipelines that arrive at the consumer. Clean water does not magically come out of your tap. So is water a right? Yes. Is clean water provided by the labor of others a right? I fail to see how it is. You could just as easily argue that fruits and vegetables should all be free because they are natural resources. You ignore all the labor and effort required to produce it and provide it within walking distance of your house.
>>717697590 Notice, I never suggested that humans don't have 23 chromosomal pairs. >>717696534 >really compares to humans 23 >Oh yeah corn with 10 chromosomes
And >Which has thousands of sequences within each pair which would all have to be "rewritten" to take out base human instinct Why are we doing that again? Can you better prove to me, that this, "human instinct", is unique to humans only, or the thing that compels us to act and leave behind the weak and the dead? Did I really suggest that we need to overwrite this very thing in our DNA, so we think that everyone has a right to clean drinking water?
Are you sure I didn't just suggest that one day, people will add new lines to their DNA, and that doing this will change how those individuals deal with, say, clean drinking water?
I mean, you presume so much, anon. So much assuming.
>>717698010 It's the same instinct in all animals. That's what instinct is. You think any other animal gives a fuck about another animals water situation half a world away? No they don't they would rather take a water source for themselves in order to survive instead. Humans are the same way at their very base.
>>717698534 No. I am saying water is plentiful, not clean water. The point is not that there is enough clean water around for everyone to just go and drink. The point is that because water is a natural and plentiful resource of the earth it is counterintuitive to think that it should not be a right. But we are not talking about simple access to water, we are talking about clean water. There is a difference, which I already laid out in my original post >>717697649
>>717699166 What about plants? Corn? And, didn't we already finish suggesting that there is no human aspect of this instinct? I thought the instinct was the same in all animals. Do you mean to say that you were trying to invoke the sense that humans are capable of incorporating other behaviors, apart from responding to this instinct?
>>717685194 In a first world country? It's a right, the government is supposed to serve and protect us, like someone else here said, it's why we pay taxes. In anywhere in the world? Sadly it's a privilege. We live in a crazy advanced world and unfortunately some places have fallen behind. In a time where instant global communication is possible, the idea that some people can't get clean drinking water is insane.
>>717700890 >In a first world country it's a right because the government is supposed to serve and protect us.
First world or third world really makes no difference, just because things are exponentially more advanced in your environment doesn't negate your responsibility to pay for a product that you want. It's been said numerous times ITT, if you don't want to pay for it then collect rainwater and purify it yourself. The little in taxes you pay doesn't have anything to do with buying water which is why you have a water bill every month unless you live with your parents in addition to paying taxes.
The cost you pay for water is indicative of people, a lot of them with college degrees, engineering infrastructure, working 40 hour weeks to transport/purify your water and deliver it to your tap. If you're not okay with that then go drink out a mud puddle somewhere. You're the same type of people that think obamacare is a justifiable thing when one person pays $1,500 a month and another pays nothing but both get the exact same healthcare. That's not how the world works.
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