https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJr xUhas_DY >The least i

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>>3115061
Pfft. Raven.

Yes. Just look at two biggest boom periods of wrestling. Vince Russo has been saying the same for years, story & character > fake fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUyRf6YYxm8

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>>3115061
Yes. When wrestling as popular it was because people were tuning in to see larger than life characters like Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man, Stone Cold, Sting, etc. Personalities are the most important part of wrestling, not the wrestling. Obviously there's outliers like Kurt Angle who had personality and could wrestle just as good as anyone, but most of the greats only had a few moves and would make the match all about telling a story.

Look at the current WWE champions. The one with the most distinct personality is fucking Brock Lesnar for fucks sake. People literally tune in to see him german suplex people for 20 minutes.

>>3115310
>Brock: final boss shoot fighter; possible sociopath
>Jinder: Indian with steroid bacne who speaks broken Punjabi
>Briss: a
>Natalya: likes cats
>Miz: he's a cunt
>AJ: he's a guy who has really good matches
>The New New Rockers: one's poor, the other wears balck pants
>Usos: basically, theyre nigz
>Neville: he's a cunt; King of the Manlets
>Dunne: i'm 19.

>>3115061
Depends on the preference of the viewer. For WWE it's never been about the wrestling, and in-ring product seems to be pretty low on Vince's priority list. In the south it was all about the rasslin', same with Europe and Japan. In Mexico it's all about theatrics.
Personally I love the pageantry and characters, but the wrestling itself is #1 for me.

>>3115328
>Briss: she's a bitch

>>3115282
Raven has a great mind for the business.

>>3115061
>Is he right?
He is not. Fans watch wrestling because it's wrestling. If they didn't care about the actual wrestling then they'd watch soap operas.

>>3115061
Somewhat true. People watch for good guys to cheer for and bad guys to hate. Granted, nobody is gonna give two fucking shits about the story if the guys can't put together a decent match to watch, but without a good story or characters it's impossible to care about the match even if it's good.

Presently, we're in an era where the wrestling matches are good, but the stories and characters are the absolute WOAT.

>>3115344
Wrestling is a soap opera, for men.

>>3115354
This. There have been some pretty good matches in WWE so far this year, but there hasn't been a single storyline that's caught my interest since Miz and Ziggles at No Mercy last year, which WWE immediately buried as soon as it got over so they could feed Miz to fucking Ambrose for no reason.
The booking and creative in general has been shit for years now.

>>3115354
>Presently... the stories and characters are the absolute WOAT.

Unironically? Watch NewJapan. Best storylines and strongest characters, presently. This is coming from an overall E-drone, mind you.

>>3115358
This

>>3115354
>Granted, no smark is gonna give two fucking shits about the story if the guys can't put together a decent match to watch.

fixed

>>3115364
Stop trying to convert people to your cult jap

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>>3115358
And the actual WRESTLING is why they watch it. If the wrestling itself didn't matter then they'd watch regular soap opera.

>>3115416
>And the actual WRESTLING is why they watch it.
No, it's not.

>>3115419
>No, it's not.
Yes it is. I know you sports entertainists try to make excuses for the wrestling being so shit in WWMeme, but people watch pro-wrestling because of the wrestling.

>>3115416
No they don't. Case and point, Attitude Era. Wrestling itself does matter to proggress the story but it's not the focal point.

>>3115424
I grew up watching wrestling for nearly 20 years. Never once did I turn on Raw, Smackdown, Nitro, etc. because I wanted to see wrasslin. I tuned in to see stories and for someone to beat the shit out of someone else. When Mankind beat The Rock on Raw for the WWF Championship, I tuned in(because it was spoiled) because I wanted to see if Mankind could win, not to see them wrestle, it was hardly even a wrestling match. They punched each other for a few minutes, outside interference, Stone Cold chair shot, match over. It great.

>>3115428
>Wrestling itself does matter to proggress the story but it's not the focal point.
I didn't say it was the focal point, but trying to argue fans don't watch pro-wrestling for the wrestling is like saying fans don't watch action movies for the action or comedy movies for the comedy. The end game of almost every storyline is the wrestling itself which is why you and every other pro-wrestling fan watches it. If Vince thought he could do away with the actual wrestling all together he would have years ago, but even he realized that no matter how great a story is it's ultimately the wrestling why fans watch pro-wrestling.

>>3115430
>it was hardly even a wrestling match.
And yet it was WRESTLING.

>>3115430
> It great.
Holy shit, spoken like a true inbred fuckstick. I can't even argue with anything you said it was so fucking retarded, do us all a favor and end yourself in whatever fashion you deem appropriate.

>>3115436
Obviously you HAVE to watch the wrestling as it is where all the feuds culminate, but no one really tunes in because they want to watch wrestling matches for 2 hours. They tune in for the drama, stories and characters.

>>3115436
I think the point was that the content of the match means jack shit as in how many moves you have, "workrate" etc. Only smarks care about that. Casuals will go wild just seeing Stone Cold punch and kick for 10 minutes.

>>3115446
>Obviously you HAVE to watch the wrestling as it is where all the feuds culminate
Which is why fans watch pro-wrestling. They could just as easily watch regular TV shows that feature infinitely better stories if they didn't care at all about the actual wrestling matches.

>but no one really tunes in because they want to watch wrestling matches for 2 hours.
PPV says otherwise. But I can understand this sentiment if all you've ever watched was WWE, but watching 2 hours worth of nothing but pure wrestling WHEN IT'S ACTUALLY GOOD is quite easy and enjoyable. It's a shit ton more enjoyable than suffering through a god-awful storyline, that's for damn sure.

>>3115446
>They tune in for the drama, stories and characters.
Sure, maybe if you have two x chromosomes.

>>3115446
but who would give a shit about all the build up if it never culminated in some kind of decisive confrontation?

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>>3115061
>The least important part about wrestling is the actual wrestling. Is he right?

If you're trying to expand your market / television viewership, yes he's right.

Wrestling fans who like watching wrestling matches are already watching anyways, and that market will only grow slowly if at all.

If you want people who don't care about wrestling to watch wrestling, you'll have to give them some stuff they care about. Sex, weapon violence, comedy, drama, bizarre characters, friendships, social/political commentary even.

This is exactly what WWE did to achieve their two "high points," namely the mid-late 80's and Attitude Era.

For instance, look at McGregor/Mayweather. They drew as highly as they did not because they brought in boxing fans to watch a technically sound boxing match. They drew so highly because of the freakshow aspect. The hype, the smack talking promos on the buildup, the crossover appeal between different markets (boxing, mma, fairwesther sports fans in general, and even people who watch the news because it was getting coverage.)

So we have to define what "important" means.
If it means catering to ONLY a narrow demo, your growth potential is almost nil.
If it means appealing to a wider audience who have varying interests in entertainment, your growth potential widens.

>>3115450
>I think the point was that the content of the match means jack shit as in how many moves you have, "workrate" etc
I never said anything about the actual quality of the wrestling. When I refer to the wrestling itself I mean the matches; not any type of actual wrestling. Watching Mankind win the belt = wrestling (matches).

But I will concede that the best matches of course have storylines leading up to them (if the match itself ends up being good). It could be a ridiculous sports entertainment story or a purely physical story that was just as intricate and complex like from the King's Road era.

He would be right if he altered that statement.
>The least important part about WWE is the actual wrestling
In other places it's more important. In some places it's the most important thing.

>>3115329
This desu. Take a look at, say, ECW, which Raven is well acquainted with. If you can call all that trashcan hardcore shit wrestling, then wrestling was the most important thing for ECW. It's why the fans watched it. Nobody gave a shit about New Jack getting possibly screwed out of a title attempt by a dodgy ref, they just wanted to see him beat the shit out of someone with a crowbar.
Now look at NJPW. Hard to say if the gook fans would love it as much if it were just like WWE, but it 100% would not have the international attention it's gotten this year without having the kind of matches those guys have been putting on. It's building itself on the foundation of in-ring product.

>MUH CHARACTERS
>MUH PSYCHOLOGY
>MUH CHARISMA
Just watch Netflix ya pinhead. Lucha Underground clearly shows that both characters and workrate are equally important.

>>3115283
Vince Russo
>booked the attitude era at its most based with a filter on his ideas
>Now unfiltered, was the head writer of WCW and while he did make WCW pretty bad it was still pretty entertaining
And for all of you R-RUSSO KILLED WCW marks, WCW already had a foot in the grave since like, 1998 when they signed Warrior and started doing that cringey One Warrior Nation stuff. It was also at this time when Time Warner and Ted Turner were increasingly fucking WCW's ass more and more.
Anyways back to what I was saying
>Went to TNA after a short stint as a consultant in WWE
>made TNA absolutely based in 2002-2004, gave them the tools to thrive in 2005, came back in 2006 and made it more baseder up until 2012
>Became a consultant, TNA took a downfall and now is ROH 2.0 and ROH is TNA 2.0
>Now works marks on his podcast
Tell me why this man isn't more important?

>>3115495
Russo didn't kill WCW, though he did have a hand in it with some terrible booking. Turner board, Time Warner, and WCW's own infrastructure killed WCW. It was in the process of imploding right when Time Warner stomped on its throat.

>>3115310
>Lesnar has more personality than USO PENITENTIARY

>>3115061
>The least important part about wrestling is the actual wrestling
No.

You could book Mojo Rawley vs Botch Cara vs Darren Young like it was Rock vs Austin vs HBK and no-one would give a shit.

If you book every match as a 5 minute squash, or where every match ends with a distraction roll-up, people will tune out even if you have Hogan vs Rock level of interest.

It isn't always the _most_ important thing but without actual decent wrestling matches that people are willing to watch, you've got no product.

>>3115487
>I watch wrestling for the workrate

>>3115702
>I watch it for plot

watching wrestling solely for the entrances, characters, skits and stories then skipping the matches cos "they're boring" is the equivalent of watching porno for the acting and then skipping the fucking.
You're doing it wrong.

>>3115837
Why not watch real fighting then? Thats the point of wrestling, getting you invested and suspend your disbelief for the fake fight with the plot.

>>3115866
Because in real fight you don't have 2 people working together to put a story into their fight.
There are underdogs and bullies and injuries and fears and strenghts and weaknesses.
You got 2 people trying to be beat each other, that is not fun.

>>3115857
>Why not watch real fighting then?
Why not watch actual TV shows and movies then?

>>3115866
Why not watch actual soap operas then?

At least their writing has actual continuity.

>>3115061
no fucking shit

look at the mayweather mcgregor fight, people wanted to see it just because the two convinced they should, the quality of the fight itself is not as important witnessing an event thats been hyped for months

>>3115364
there is no basically storylines in New Japan the fuck you mean

>>3115428
Underage. PPV's were ALL wrestling

What's one of the most memorable moments in all of wrestling history?

Mick being thrown off the Hell in a Cell. That's not wrestling: that's a bump.

That's just a small example.

BUT, there is Hogan slamming Andre the Giant which is wrestling; HOWEVER, why did people care about Hogan doing that? It was the STORY behind the match, not the actual match. Hogan doing what no one else could.

Wrestling is a means to an end, not the end itself. Its purpose is to further a story.

If you're into flippy shit, that's fine, but people generally don't care about how many flips you can do if they don't care WHY someone is doing it.

>>3115468
Jesus I can smell you from here. Those other places are obscure as fuck and literally who companies to the average person. The reason WWE supposedly has the most talented roster ever but is drawing horribly is the garbage writing. Outside of a few thousand hardcore wrestling smarks, wrestling doesn't matter at all.

Hype is important but if you fail to deliver then no one is going to care about the next show.

You can't compare pro wrestlers who work fifty weeks a year with elite boxers like Mayweather

>>3115061
i used to show this clip to anyone i could

>>3115061
100% correct.
The only part of the match that matters is the finish. I mostly use wrestling as background noise while doing something else and only pay attention when promos or backstage shit happens.

>>3115430
Over 20 years for me.

wrestlers > stories/hype/build > wrestling

Without wrestlers with true star power it is hard to care. Even if they aren't the biggest star they need to have some appeal.

Stories is an absolute necessity in wrestling. If you can't even get hyped because of a shit build to the matches then it is too hard to get invested into the show.

Just because the actual wrestling is the least important part on the surface doesn't mean it isn't important. It is very important. Extremely important actually. People just fail to realize that for good wrestling to be good it needs to have a couple key ingredients to take the wrestling to the next level. Think of it as the meat of the show that needs seasoning for flavor. Then it needs to be cooked well for maximum taste. Without this the meat will taste like garbage. Just like wrestling is garbage if it is just wrestling for the sake of wrestling. That has never drawn on its own ever nor will it ever draw on its own in the future.

>>3118323
Almost ALL. But that's how it should be. Don't oversaturate the weekly shows with long matches that go through commercials. They had story proggression throughout the night, out of the arena segments, backstage skits, promos etc. on RAWs to make you invested in the fake fights on PPV.

>>3115061
Prime Times theme in the WCW was the best

The most important part of wrestling is the build. Character and stories are used for that as well as competent booking. The easiest story and one that's tried and true is having two dominant wrestlers facing off against one another for the first time in a marquee match. It's why Lesnar and Braun is so hype.

The match is actually the least important part but it's still vital that they deliver. A lot of you are continuing the anti-smark sentiment of wrestling not being important because you are warping it with flippy shit and Zack Sabre Jr type technical wrestling but if everyone in the ring had the in-ring capacity of Khali, wrestling would have died a long time ago. Austin, Rock, Hogan, Macho Man were all great workers.

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>>3115444
>Holy shit, spoken like a true inbred fuckstick. I >can't even argue with anything you said it was so fucking retarded, do us all a favor and end yourself in whatever fashion you deem appropriate.