>this board has become SO bad that there is now "old

>>2983968
ummmm sweetie can we just agree that the only console war we need to be having is wwwf vs wwf vs wwe? thanks honey

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Agreed. As incredible and excellent as NJPW is doing this year, not one period in wrestling history comes close to Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue.

>>2983968
Look at these flabby manlets

>>2983980
>Baba: 6'7''
>Inoki: 6'3''
wew lad.

>>2983968
I prefer 00s NOAH but it's just what I watched most of.

baba had such a weird looking body

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current All Japan is better than current New Japan and that's a fact, brother.

>>2984038
Everyone has different tastes, but I don't think being snarky will help sway anyone's opinions. I do personally enjoy AJPW more than NJPW right now at the moment yes. I am loving their resurgence, it's been so fun to watch.

>>2984038
I get that you're trying to make a joke but it's not funny.

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>>2984085

>>2983968
Console war deflections from desperate e-drones looking to draw attention away from the failing WWE (only thing they've drawn lately is empty seats).

>Edrone/Nu-Japandroid who got repeatedly BTFO in the history thread desperately trying to repair his ravaged anus and ruined reputation with this thread.

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>>2984110
>When was Ogawa even in NJPW?
Clueless Nu-Japandroid!

>>2984038
It is but in Japan, Njpw 90s is consdered the best by old lasped fans and record sales.

>>2984030
GIGANTISM IS A HELL OF A DRUG BROTHER

>>2983968

Agreed brother

>>2983968
I agree

The most I enjoyed wrestling at least

>>2984418
>90's NJPW
If in the 90's and 00's you weren't watching AJPW and later on NOAH over NJPW you were a damned fool. The current era of NJPW is the only one worth watching and that's only because it's the one that most closely resembles the old AJPW style. If you actually wasted your time watching that Inoki fake-MMA crap I feel bad for you.

>>2984464
You fucking dumb faggot. The 90s wasn't the Inoki MMA era.

>>2984483
Inoki was already deep into his MMA boner far before the early 00's era. But you're right, the whole Three Musketeers era was somehow even worse than that. Mutoh didn't get good until he went to AJPW, Chono was a fucking geek and Hashimoto got over and acting tough but got exposed for being a fake tough guy.

>>2984464
>The current era of NJPW is the only one worth watching
That's objectively wrong though. NJPW had good to great stuff in the late 80s early 90s. Thins like the Steiners and Vader in NJPW were amazing, as was the first few Super J Cups.

>>2984505
>Chono was a fucking geek
Being this wrong, Chono was fun even if he was broken after the stone cold injury. Also Mutoh was based and the flashier of the three, Hash was a great wrestler and the shoot angle was a draw

>>2984505
Yeah and the shooter invading angles were the hottest things going in the 80s and 90s. Watch matches from the NJPW vs. UWF feud in the late 80s and you'll see crowds hotter than anything you get today. Same goes for the mid-90s UWFi feud.

>>2984522
Chono got exposed for being a total geek by based Onita.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn7cFGXHvqo

Just look at how effortlessly cool Onita is, you have zero doubts he gives zero fuck, Chono looks like a complete tryhard loser compared to him. Look at that fucking geek walking down the ramp with a cigar in his mouth and doesn't even have the balls to light it, what a loser, meanwhile based fucking Onita just smokes a damn cig right in the middle of the Tokyo Dome.

>>2984530
One of these wrestlers actually cared about his health and is still wrestling instead of stuck behind a commentary booth, I think you know who i am talking abou - oh wait.....

>>2984530
>New Japan crowds then: 20-something guys having a great fucking time, look well presented and fashionable
>New Japan crowds now: children, attention whore women and fat otakus.

What happened?

>>2984038
Not even close.

>>2984538
To be fair Onita still wrestles because he needs the money. Chono could live off of yakuza yen and his hot wifes bondage clothing business for the rest of his life.

>>2984579
What is this stuff about Chono being legit Yakuza? I always thought it was just a meme because that was his gimmick. Is there any proof or sources?

>>2984585
Of course theres no proof, it's fun to believe just the same. All the promotions did have legit ties to Yakuza tho back in the day.

>>2984464
Actually you're wrong. In the 90s they all got mega heat and outdrew the Ajpw guys.

Ajpws only overrated in the states because of casual puroresu fans. Not everyone like silly workrate matches. I like Ajpw 90s but most in Japan knew Njpw was the top fed in everything money, buildings, combined attendenaces, tv ratings, even booking.

Noah itself drew good in Tokyo but always did worse than even dying Njpw outside of toyko.

Hustle outdid Noahs tv ratings with low crowds oddly enough.

>>2984505
90s NJPW was the biggest promotion in Japan. The reason people see AJPW as bigger despite that not being the case is because Meltzer was obsessed with it and rated all their matches.

AJPW has always been a smaller company than NJPW.

>>2984605
Except for the brief era where Choshu invaded Ajpw. That's their biggest rating era over Njpw in history.

Japan preferred Njpws fight like wrestling over baba American wrestling pre 88.

The 80s also the last decade for prime time wrestling. Ntv sent Ajpw to late nights and cut the shows down.

Njpw still 10.0 tv ratings while Ajpw had around 4.0.

Modern Njpw gets around 1.0 at late nights.

>>2984619
Damn, wrestling really is dead everywhere. I wonder if CMLL and AAA have significantly lost ratings through the years as well.

>>2984619
This, also NJPW had more diverse cards with the juniors, AJPW consisted on a lot of tag matches to build the single matches against the pillars.

>>2984622
Wrestling is a profitable niche market like American comics at this point. Its big heyday is over worldwide.

The 80's began the delince when European wrestling collapsed and the NWA as well.

I see wrestling more like a line graph that never full goes back up. Only small new blips.

Mexico is fine for what it is. They probably will outlast WWE and American wrestling. Americans tend to be fad based people, who jump on new stuff.

>>2984627
This, AJPW was a lot like NJPW is today while NJPW then had an absolutely legendary Juniors division.

>>2984622
It was never gonna last, their shoot style matches were their biggest draws and once MMA got more popular and organised people who liked that style simply flocked to MMA instead of watching MMA-style wrestling. Pride FC really did a number on NJPW in the tail end of the 90's.

>>2984627
This is what pisses me off about modern NJPW: the heavyweights wrestle like juniors so there isn't that diversity in styles on the card anymore. It was cool when Sakuraba came back because that added a different element to the shows with his MMA style.

And also Gedo seems to have adopted the multi-man tag match approach.

>>2984622
Im mexican and can confirm the lose a lot of popularity compared to previous years, even CMLL lost their classic saturday tv spot and AAA isnt even show on national public TV (in mexico a lot of people dont have cable) and only shows on cable tv, it started when national TV started to show WWE arround 2009 (even that didnt last because of low ratings considering the price for trasmitting rights, it lasted arround 2 years).

>>2984627
Njpw also had angles and faction wars with heels, something every modern fed does now. Nwo Japan was so mega over it outdid Nwo USA.

Uwfi vs Njpw did better biz than anything Ajpw did. Baba also refused to use the bigger buildings Njpw mostly did as well. Which is weird.

Ajpw 90s did away with heels and fuck finishes.

Some fuck finishes like dq and countout still existed in Njpw 90s. They was good for media attention and fan heat.

Most factions in Ajpw 90s was more like sport teams. So groups like Hockey or Football teams. But they lacked the heat Nwo or the heisei ishingun.

>>2984651
>Baba also refused to use the bigger buildings
Baba was very conservative and played it very safe. Inoki on the other hand was a bit wilder and open to trying new things which lead to him booking the huge Dome shows and all that stuff.

>>2984632
Kinda. In using many tag and workrate expects yeah.

But Ajpw 90s had no character based stuff like Njpw or rule breaking factions like modern Njpw.

Ajpw actually used real heavyweights too

Most Njpw guys in the main events would be Juniors in Baba's Ajpw.

Okada would have to bulk up back then.

Modern Njpw is a hybrid of Memphis, Ajpw American style booking of old, with some booking aspects left over from Njpw 90s.

Anyways most old Ajpw 90's fans in Japan quit when Kobashi retired.

>>2984667
Where are you from out of interest? You know a lot about this and English doesn't seem to be your first language?

Your posts are really informative, thanks.

>>2984661
Actually Choshu handled most of Njpw 90's as fore-site manager.

Inoki powers came back in the mma era. Which many dissed him for using big buildings in a post 90's boom era.

Baba would get lambasted in media and workers at time as well. Even Kawada said they should feud with uwfi but got punished. Misawa thought Ajpw was outdated in the late 90s.

>>2984598
I can tell that you're a recovering e drone since all you care about is money. The quality of matches is what the anon you quoted was talking about.

>>2984667
why were all japan heavies back then so much bigger than the heavyweights these days? were they on roids?

>>2984677
I used to live in Japan.

>>2984689
Actually no. It's just that some western fan can't handle the fact Njpw was loved and did better.

There's more to wrestling than workrate, and the most succesful promotions in history was workrate low. Worldwide that is.

>>2984689
And the quality of matches in 90s New Japan was really good, so what's your point? They made more money AND they put on great matches. The junior division was legendary and they had some of the all time best feuds in the heavyweight division.

90s New Japan shows a wonderful spectacle to watch, from the bottom to the top of the card. AJPW only really had a good main event scene, with mediocre undercards.

>>2984705
NJPW are bigger, they're basically the wwe/wwf of Japan which a lot of people are aware of. The guy simply said that if you had to chose what to watch in the 90s and 00s and you'd choose NJPW you'd be a fools because NJPW were putting out the inferior product. But they were more popular. Kinda like how ROH were great but still small time and people were still watching crappy wwe instead.

>>2984694
Ajpw heavys was bigger back then due to diet of protein and roids and beer. Baba loved having own workers big body wise. He mainly sent them on excursions to bulk up rather than gain experience. Most new Ajpw moves was created in the Ajpw ring or watching tapes like kobashi did.

Njpw guys tend to get their moves from overseas.


As for Njpw, while they wasn't big as Ajpws..they still was bigge than today's.


Another thing in downturns most big men don't want to work in current Njpw. Most workers today in Njpw hw scence are techinally juniors.

Naito and Omega got dissed by old workers for being too small. While Kondo of Wrestle 1 said Okada is too skinny.

>>2984727
Today they are. And in the 90s they was as well.

But only a fool would think modern Njpw is big as it used to be.

>>2984737
I'm watching a NJPW vs. UWFi show from 1995. The crowd is so into the opening tag match. Where did this myth that Japanese crowds are quiet come from?

>>2984729
But Kondo is a roidlet!

>>2984694
Bushiroad want to appeal to women and children so they buy their playing card games, so they've pushed pretty boys who should be juniors as heavyweights.

Back in the day the audience was more male so they pushed tough looking guys.

>>2984768
From people trying to rationalize the fact that crowds today are reduced to jaded smarks and wrestlers today aren't even nearly as over as they used to be.

>>2984768
Depends on the era and company. The 90s was white hot due to Njpws booking and Ajpw's workrate matches. Many new Feds, clean finishes, hot angles, inter-company feuds possible when they sued to be rare.

There's however 80s crowds that work out quiet but then go wild when the matches get faster and more dramatic.

There's two of crowds in Japan, the quiet observer who later goes wild somewhat and the fans who mark out at most stuff.

Lot of shoot feds had analytical fans who watched it as if it was tennis.

>>2984826
Used.* not sued.

Honestly, I prefer message boards over 4 chans.

>>2984768

All Japan and New Japan fans in the 2000s not drawing anybody and putting on shit shows. Noah crowds were hot and electric in that time but with Noah basically dead most of those fans went with it. So all we have now are AJPW and NJPW fans that only started watching in the 2000s claiming it's always been like this.

One dude that i think the Nu japan fans will not know how based he is/was and personally one of my favorites is based old ass grumpy fucker Tenryu, i loved WAR and a his style, there was a match against Hayabusa where he has "who is this fuckin tranny masked manlet" look.

Also his retirement show was

>>2984783
Roids are good. Kondo also doesn't think he should be in hw title chasing.

Wrestle 1's main belt is openweight.

Masa Funaki is the only Junior to wear the Triple crown.

>>2984885

Also his retirement show was pretty cool, i watched it on stream and when Fujiwara was wrestling someone commented "this nigga is so old that he invented armbar" it made me lose my sides, also when Tenryu just dropped Okada when doing a powerbomb and his face was like "fuck this shit up, this korean ladyboi will not draw dimes anyway"

>>2984793
Bullshit, guys like Naito and Okada are every bit as much of a junior as a guy like Muta, don't pretend it was all big guys back then.

>>2984893
Lol.

Tenryu kept that 80s Ajpw American style and brought it to War.

Shinya vs Tenryu is basically the modern Ajpw style. Lotta strikes and rough spots.

Tenryu also influenced both Isshi and Shibata. Shibata only watches Tenryu matches.

>>2984916
Tbh mutoh is a big guy, he has big traps, ches and shoulder set

>>2984923
Are you maybe refering to Mutoh in the early 00's? Because at that point he was a lot heavier set than he was during his mid-90's tenure as Great Muta.

>>2984916
Mutoh's 6 foot and 230 pounds back then. Naito is actually five foot 9 and really 201 pounds.

I removed all the fake height and weights.

Current Njpw female fanbase is the biggest itmever been.

Salary men consider Njpw today is twinky. They watch Bjw and Ajp instead.

>>2984933
Well I'm watching Muta vs. Chono in 93 right now and Muta looks only barely bigger than Okada. He does have big chest and traps though, like that other guy said. Chono also doesn't look very big at all, and at this point his arms looked shockingly feeble.

>>2984885
>>2984893
Tenryu was fucking based. I love his facial expression where he look super unimpressed and like he wants to kill his opponent.

Such a good grumpy wrestler.

>>2984916
Even the juniors back then looked tougher than modern NJPW heavyweights. Like>>2984933 said, men view NJPW (and Dragon Gate too) as twinky fag shit.

Bushiroad is a card game company, they use NJPW to shill their card games and try to appeal to children and women who buy them.

>>2984929

Yes, on youtube there was the tokyo dome show where he won the iwgp title against scott norton and in the pre match promo he looked jacked.

>>2984944

Chono got fucked when steve austin fucked his neck, but he got charisma at least

>>2984944
They was big but lean. Babas boys was the biggest anyway.

Bjw uses the Baba style hw body these days.

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>>2984768
Also another thing I notice, whenever it shows the crowd it's all 20-something Japanese lads who look like they're cool guys. Why such a dramatic change to now where it seems to be children/women/families?

>>2984933
Your broken english can't mask the fact that you're completely full of shit, don't try to act like you're Japanese. What is your source when you say Japanese men think NJPW is faggy shit? And how can you possibly say that they watch AJP and BJW instead when both of those companies are literally bingo hall tier these days?

>>2984977
Just like what happened with American wrestling they all jumped ship to MMA.

>>2984991
Are you retarded? Japanese books and website stuff and history.

Japan's 2ch website has old fans shitting on twink pro wrestling.

Typical nu-jpan fan.

>>2985004
Link those 2ch threads. I regularly browse /wres/ and I've seen no such thing.

>>2984977
It's not cool for guys anymore. Tana himself wanted kids and familys.

>>2985007
No you don't. You are dumb as Realhero and his ilk.

>>2985010
Must I show you my internet history? You're such a try-hard. Get over yourself, and link the threads.

>>2985004
I'm pretty sure that's just the japanese equivalent of jaded "hurr where have all the real men gone" marks.

>>2984991
There aren't many manly men left in Japan right now that's why those bingo halls are empty.

>>2985017
Nobody's a try hard my child but you..you are like every new fan that hates the facts.


>>2985020
Are you upset that they think that way? It has no impact on your own views.

Taste is relative and culture and generation bound.

>>2985030
Please, PLEASE, stop acting like you're Japanese or have any idea what the Japanese think.

>>2985030
Nope. You're the one talking out of your ass.

New Japan, DDT, WRESTLE-1, etc, are definitely twink promotions, but I don't see many people complaining about that on 2ch. You have 0 proof to back any of your claims.

>>2985030
Stop trying to push your own opinion as fact, stop acting like your taste somehow mirror that of the entire Japanese population. You're full of shit, please stop posting.

>>2984991
Dragon Gate was literally made to appeal to women and gays, they wanted to be faggy shit to appeal to that demographic.

New Japan has in recent years become more like that. That's just a fact. Look at their main eventers; all of them have highlights in their hair and wear flashy outfits. Shibata stood out because he wore simple black trunks and had natural hair in tribute to the old-school guys and he was always the one that men thought was cool.

>>2985051
>Dragon Gate was literally made to appeal to women and gays, they wanted to be faggy shit to appeal to that demographic.

See based Yamato and /lgbt/ santamaria

>>2983968
Older 90s Japanese wrestling is deeper in psychology. Remember working holds and limb-work used to be common in that period. (Except the go-go-go late 90s Ajpw period.).


Big bombs and uber stiff strikes and elbow strike exchanges replaced that stuff. Leaving it as homogenous epic matches.

>>2985081
Yeah you see but if I wanted to watch that I'd just go watch MMA. Which is what most fans did.

>>2984991
Just look at NJPW merch. All the crossover stuff they do is with anime like Milky Holmes and Hello Kitty stuff. Any self-respecting man is going to think that shit is gay af.

>>2985091
And now jmma is dead. Still nothing I said is in MMA.

Mma is punches and shoot subs while limbwork and wrestling related matwork is dead.

The crowds of old Japanese wrestling are gone now that wrestling looks like dance as Maeda said. And exposed as fake no matter what.

Baba's wife said the boys of today don't know the basics.

>>2985111
>limbwork and wrestling related matwork is dead.

You should watch more wrestling if you actually think this. There have been several G1 matches just this week based around limbwork.

Stop posting, please.

Based
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0REJQSxyxA

>>2985108
They did a crossover with Tekken just recently.

>>2985117
ZERO FUCKS GIVEN

>>2985111
Yeah, there was the book by Njpw ref exposing the biz.

The old fans brought into the old pro-wrestling is the strongest mantra Inoki created.

Wrestling is just some perma niche until that image comes back and booked the right way unlike dark ages Njpw but like Pre-anything else.

Even then, nothing's gonna get the tv rating of the 80s back or mainstream into it.

>>2985116
Name one match that had limbwork that actually mattered in the end.

Plenty of modern NJPW matches start out with limbwork, then they completely forget about it and pretend it never happened while they get their spots in for the '''''''epic'''''' finishing stretch.

>>2985108
>confirmed nigger who knows fucking nothing of what he talks about

>>2985116
It's rare these days and gets no sold later. Stupid moron.

>>2985123
Okada works the neck every match he wrestles to weaken his opponent for the rainmaker.. there you go. Tanahashi/Naito in Osaka this year was built around mutual limbwork, and ended on a submission hold.

Both Okada/Suzuki matches this year.

Okada/Omega was built around Okada working the neck, and Omega working the mid section.

Etc, etc, etc.

>>2985127
Remmy, sonnybone, Jesse, Realhero, are all moron marks.

>>2985123
Hideki Suzuki vs. Yuji Okabayashi this year; built around armwork.

You should pay more attention to things.

>>2985128
I mean, Inoki and Robinson hardly sold the long term damage of their submission holds, and that match was almost 100% matwork.

>>2985132
They are talking about arm and left limbwork which was more common before 2009. Nu-fag.


Kojima could work the leg in the 90s and finish you off with a head move. Plently of arm or leg work in the 90s.

The bookers (Jado and gedo) told workers to focus on head and back always.

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>>2985127
What was incorrect about what I said?

>>2985137
That's one of my favourite of the year, I was talking about Nu Japan. Limbwork doesn't matter in NJPW as long as they get their choreographed dance in at the end.

The Rainmaker Tango is so fucking overdone and boring now.

>>2985152
Tanahashi and Mutoh worked the leg very often but never finished the match on a leg submission, but it consistently dampened the offensive capabilities of the opponent. What the fuck do you guys consider appropriate selling of a limb anyway? Oh you worked my arm for a bit so now it's fucking gone?

>>2985161
Oh, figures you would enjoy boring Big Japan.

>Overdone and boring

It gets the crowd going wild every time.

>>2985161
>as long as they get their choreographed dance in at the end.
Did you, by any chance, somehow forget you were watching pro wrestling?

>>2985168
Mutoh has won with the figure four on occasions, and Tanahashi's legwork is more geared towards making sure his opponents stays down for the high fly flow.

>>2985170
This, sometimes I too think I've seen enough of Okada's finishing sequence but holy shit the crowd fucking melts every single time.

>>2985161
True but they don't get it's not common. Used to be the bread and butter. Most midcard matches and below are just spots and strikes with wwe structure.


Now it's filler for de epic matches.

>>2985177
Pro wrestling is about suspension of disbelief. You're supposed to make it look like you're fighting your opponent, not dancing with them.

>>2985168
Njpw had human chess psycholgy. Not video game psychology.


Highspots replaced subs these days.

>>2985188
No it did not. You're delusional if you think it was any less unrealistic but you just like to talk shit because you're too dumb for MMA but you somehow think you're too smart for wrestling.

>>2985188
Nu fans just don't understand. I call them casual-hipsters.

>>2985186
Again, the crowd goes bananas for it so it is effective.

>>2985195
Because they turned their crowd into children and women who will clap anything as long as it's got ladyboys in it.

>>2985193
Only retard is here is you. You quoted the wrong guy as well.

But there's a difference between a armbar and Okadas contrived short arm lariat. Even the old workers shit on that.

>>2985193
Have you actually watched any NJ from the 80s? The matches are much more realism based and the biggest spot they do is german suplexes. The crowd goes insane for things like backdrops because in a realistic fight they're very rare.

Also how do you know he doesn't watch both? Most fans of puro are also fans of MMA because of the historical crossover.

>>2985194
If you honestly think your taste is superior because you watched fake shit that pretended to be realistic instead of watching actual MMA you really need to get your head checked. If anything, old fans are clueless idiots if they actually bought into that shit like it was real.

>>2985205
All of the old workers have fallen to the Rainmaker!

>>2984038
True.

>>2985209
You're literally a fan of fraudulent MMA and would get laughed out of any MMA discussion.

>>2985226
lol what? Literally what did you mean by this? You get BTFO and just decide to hurl random insults at people? How do you know what MMA I watch?

>>2985214
>>2985220
Lol no. You need to accept you have napolean complex. You got into nu-jap to be a hipster.

I got into because I like it..

New stuff is objectively garbage.

>>2985209
>he actually claims that the absolutely laughable submission work of the 80's was "realistic"
Oh man I just can't deal with this, it's amazing the lengths that fans of the old shit will go to defend the fact that they were nothing but dumbass marks.

>>2985231
I know /asp/ is relatively new to New Japan, but I'm not, and I watch tons more puroresu than just New Japan. It's nothing to do with being a hipster. NOAH was the first wrestling company I ever watched.

>>2985241
You ever watched UWF, mark? You know the precursor to modern MMA?

Nu japan fans dont accept that the pre-senile Inoki era was based.

So here is the first test:

How based was Fujiwara?

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>>2985241
All of the early MMA organisations were formed by NJPW wrestlers from the 80s you clueless fucking retard.

>>2985257
>>2985268
Not only were those promotions full of works their crossover stuff with New Japan was even more worked. How come you guys are so proud of all that fraudulent early MMA shit? It's the darkest period of the sport, thank the lord based Pride came along to not only legitimize Japanese MMA but also to put Inoki Japan in it's place.

>>2985306
...Pride was started by a NJPW wrestler too.

>>2985314
Who, no doubt, was sick of all the fraudulent shit New Japan and it's earlier splinter promotions pulled.

>>2985268
yeah that famous NJPW Royce Gracie, you fucking idiot

>>2985319
Shooto was around a good 8 years before the UFC

>>2985322
and what impact did it have on MMA? none. The UFC, Pancrase and Rings are what matter, the rest were pointless.

>>2985322
Who the fuck cares about fake fight that pretended to be real?

>>2985322
>LITERALLY PRETEND MMA

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>>2983968
>>2983968
Anyone who only liked pre mid 00s Nowah are casuals.

But anyone into only bushi road Njpw are moron marks.

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>>2985358
GOAT

>>2985330
And two of those were formed by New Japan wrestlers known for wrestling realistic styles in the 80s.

Congrats on working yourself into a shoot.

>>2985330
>and what impact did it have on MMA?
It doesn't matter. Shooto was the first modern MMA system.

>>2985343
>>2985348
Never go full retard.

>>2985370
>"All of the early MMA organisations were formed by NJPW wrestlers"
>gets BTFO when told the UFC had nothing to do with weeb shit
>cries in rage

>>2985370
There's no such thing as "realistic style" wrestling you fucking idiot, only fake MMA shit that was ate up by people who actually believed Inoki's "strong style" bullshit.

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>>2985399
> There's no such thing as "realistic style" wrestling you fucking idiot

>>2985399
I said to never go full retard, anon.

>>2985399
There's an entire subgenre of realistic wrestling called shootstyle you dumb fuck.

>>2985417
>shootstyle
AKA fake MMA that only idiot marks ate up

>>2985417
it's a niche not a subgenre

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>>2985419
Nah people know it's worked. If you love MMA so much why are you so mad that wrestlers who wanted to be more realistic made modern MMA? Shouldn't you be pleased these guys existed and helped create the thing you love? Why are you so angry about it?

Did you believe the propaganda of the Gracie business empire or something? Did you cry like a bitch when Sakuraba, a pro-wrestler, rekt them all?

>>2985419
Shoot style existed BEFORE modern MMA, you dumb obese fuck.

>>2985399
There's a difference between srs pro-wrestling and overly dramatic contrived twinks pro wrestling.

>>2985432
>>2985437
>>2985440
Don't bother he's just being a good little Gracie goy showing HESPECT TO DA ALMIGHTY GRACIE FAMILIA.

Probably a Blow-Job-Jitsu bro.

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>>2985440
They don't understand that. I honestly rather have shoot and old strong style back.

I prefer smart working over hard work.

>>2985432
Don't bother with him. You're talking to someone that pays $500 a month so they can roll around on gymnastic mats wearing Gracie approved pajamas. He's too far gone in the Gracie brainwashing pyramid scheme.

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>>2985452

>>2985452
This, shoot style was based:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3JU61dvSIA

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>>2985467

>>2985467
Terrible kicking technique. Ibushi is better.

>>2985472
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J8neJDeiYsA

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>>2985479
Ibushi is robotic and a spot monkey.

>>2985452
Fujinami is probably my favorite worker of classic strong style. He had a match against a tag partner in the early 80s (before UWF) that was like proto-shoot style.

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>>2985492
Nu-Japan of today don't know how to sell realistically anyway.

>>2985473
>>2985467
>>2985452
this kind of stuff just doesn't interest me much, not saying it's better or worse, but most of these matches are pretty boring for me to watch. Not because it's inherently a lesser form of wrestling, but more because I didn't grow up watching that style of wrestling.

It's a generational thing that will never go away, even in twenty years when the style has evolved and I will likely prefer the content from the current era.

They don't know how to sell realistically because none of those gayboys come from actual martial arts or have ever been in a real fight their whole lives so they have no idea how to sell like it's real.

>>2985515
Same here, I understand the appeal and I've tried to watch a lot of it and while I did like and appreciate some of it it just doesn't change the fact that most stuff from those eras are just incredibly boring to watch, I have trouble sitting through 15-20 minute matches at times.

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posting a gif that will trigger gracie fags. Saku purposefully gives the gracie animal his back and then fucking manhandles him and breaks his arm.

Classic saku!

>>2985516
Even guys like Toru Yano have cauliflower ear. Are you kidding?

Since there seems to be a bunch of knowledgeable people in this thread, does anyone know any lists of essential 90s matches outside of the four pillars or 'dark age' NJPW

>>2985531
Reigns vs Big Show pretty good

>>2985503
Yeah, later on in the first Uwf they decided to remove Irish whips and most fake looking suplexes and slams and dives to create U-style or shoot style it's known as.

Gotch is the one who gave Strong style it's realistic aspects like catch and human chess like elements. Inoki was known for his strikes and rage pre Njpw.

>>2985531
Just fuck all this gay shit and go watch FMW.

>>2985532
Big Show vs Strowman is the true masterpiece, pleb

>>2985515
>>2985523

Boring is relative

>>2985542
I've found it's a taste you can acquire. I grew up with the Ruthless Aggression era, so i got used to pretty fast paced stuff. Took me a while to get into early 90s and 80s stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of fans will disregard anything before 1996 as boring and slow

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>>2985529
Saku would destroy Okada.

>>2985523
It's an acquired taste; once you know about what you're watching and what to look out for you get into it more and more.

>>2985529
Really wish he'dcome back for a few more matches. His fight with Shibata and Nakamura were a lot of fun

I tried some shoot stuff but it's pretty boring and I might as well be watching Pride instead.

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>>2985557
He bows to the Rainmaker.

>>2985531
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4jydu1
This is a good entry level match for 'shoot style'. It's not really a shoot style match at all, but Takada was a shoot style guy, so if you enjoy him in this match then you might enjoy shoot style.

>>2985554
Depends on what is slow. Modern Njpw may be faster because it's not doing holds and mat work much, its new match build is still slower than old njpw. You used to be able to bust out early big moves then go back to holds.

I think more Feds need to have different styles, either builds or the moves they use or what kind of psychology.

I also hate the killing off the submission finishes, that's a tradition old as the fed. Choshu death lock is basically useless in Ajpw 80s. In Ajpw 90s submission finishers only worked on juniors and rookies.

>>2985570
Paid to.

>>2985531
A shit ton of joshi matches and shoot style matches.

I like shoot but Mma is boring and gay.

>>2985561
He's doing matches for DDT's sub-brand DNA for some reason. I don't have a clue how he ended up there.

>>2985576
thanks

>>2985581
I agree that different companies should try different styles. Especially indies, which mostly seem to copy NJPW. Even within NJPW and WWE they could do with changing up styles every so often. As great as NJPW can be, they're becoming very formulaic.

>>2985600
I didn't even know DDT was big enough to have a sub brand.

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>tfw based posters knowledgable anons are slowly making /asp/ better and better and BTFO NuJapanfags along the way.
This place is a better place to discuss wrestling than /wooo/.

>>2985609
They have like 3 or 4 sub-brands somehow. DNA is kind of like their developmental one where young talent gets to have matches with veterans and stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kHpO7y11Xtc

90s Njpw was white hot.

Saku needs to come back and win the IWGP heavyQ

>>2985676
He's NEVER Openweight at best.

Can anyone break down why Japanese pro-wrestling is so highly regarded? I really don't get it.

>>2985643
Leddit users don't want history and facts. Neither do most of the nu-Japan fans, they're clearly operating on their hive-mind modus operandi to subvert the facts.

They don't even read kakutolog for info in Japan. It's like a cult of sonnybones into movez only.

If you want to give modern All Japan a shot, I would definitely start with Kento's title reign. If you want something a little more recent, I would start with Shuji Ishikawa's title reign then. All can be found on RealHero. Suwama/Ishikawa is my favorite match of the year so far, I am more drawn to the Heavyweight/hoss guys anyways.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5rK95X3mRiiSDNvTnQ0aUhWODg

>>2985715
Who the fuck is sonnybones or any of the other guys you were talking about earlier in the thread? But forget that, I'm glad you finally decided to put a name so now I can filter you easily.

>>2985725
Yeah, go do your filtering out facts. Lol nu-Japan drone seething.

>>2985690
Laughter7 should of got a tag title run. The fact they didn't literally leaves me SEETHING like nothing else.

>>2985735
They get ass blasted easy.

>>2985741
I don't know. They were booked above the IWGP tag division as they should have been.

>>2985741
Because the bookers are shit at tag teams.

>>2985752
maybe but during that period it was just mediocre gaijin teams hotshotting the title. It was a piss break division. Would of been nice for the tag titles to have someone interesting hold them for once.

Reddit: The Thread

>>2985797
nujapan fags are redditors. check their wrestling page, all it is is shit about Kenny, bullet club and LIJ. Total cringefest.

All Japan Pro Wrestling wasn't that good anymore by the end of the 90's. German suplexes became the equivalent of body slams and they were kicking out of and doing way too much, which made it impossible for anyone else to follow. I really enjoy early 1990's AJPW more when Jumbo was still around where they will still working smart and hadn't killed everything.

All Japan Women's peak was better than All Japan. All Japan Women had Hokuto, Toyota, Aja, Kyoko, Bull, LCO who were all HOF level talent and then on top of it had them wrestle against other HOF talent like Kandori, Kansai, Ozaki and Kudo. They were doing the style that is popular now in 1992 and are still ahead of the times. Not only did they have great wrestling but they had larger than life talent with real characters to them.

Memphis was probably the best week to week promotion. They didn't give away the big stuff on TV, so who knows what we were missing. The promo's were great, the angles were great, Lawler is probably only behind flair as the US GOAT from the 80's on and they had the best announcing duo ever of Lance/Dave. It still holds up today too.

>>2985813
Always been meaning to get into Memphis but don't know where to start really. I have the Memphis Heat documentary downloaded, is that any good?

>>2985813
Fmw is the best.

>>2985813
Agree on AJPW going to far with kick-outs. Finshers became transition moves. It's definitely cool for a while but it ends up with diminishing returns

>>2985818
Same. I've heard how good Memphis was and I did see bits and pieces, but I have no idea where to start.

>>2985531
> Since there seems to be a bunch of knowledgeable people in this thread, does anyone know any lists of essential 90s matches outside of the four pillars or 'dark age' NJPW

Check out http://prowrestlingonly.com/ for the year by year breakdown of good matches and DVDVR's best of the 1990's breakdown: https://web.archive.org/web/20130130055231/http://www.deathvalleydriver.com:80/Bestof90s/bestof90s.html

And not to shill but I've reviewed a lot of these matches with pics/gifs on my blog at http://prowresblog.blogspot.com/

All Japan Women:
Go watch Big Egg Wrestling Universe, Dreamslam 1 and 2 and go see Dreamrush. Those are the best cards of all time.
Any of the Ozaki/Kansai vs Yamada/Toyota series
Toyota/Aja Big Egg and Destiny
Toyota/Yamda haircut match
Jungle Jack vs Bull/Grizzly
LCO vs Ito/Watanabe Cage
Toyota/Hokuto
Hokuto/Kandori
Toyota/Kandori

FMW:
Onita/Tenryu
Onita/Hayabusa
Pick any of the Hayabusa vs Gladiator or Gladiator vs Tanaka series
Pretty much any of the explosion matches.

UWF:
Any Vader/Takada
Any Takada/Yamazaki
Takada/Tenryu

RINGS:
Han/Tamura and pretty much all of Volk Han stuff
Again, this is stuff not enough people have seen to pimp.

JWP:
Any Ozaki/Kansai
Hyuga/Haruyama
Haruyama/Kyoko Kimura - Footstomp off scaffold match
JWP Thunderqueen

Michinoku Pro:
These Days is required viewing
All of the Kaientai vs Sasuke/Delfin/Naniw/random babyface matches are all good and top quality.

Battlarts:
Just watch all of it. Anything with Otsuka, Ishikawa or Ikeda is pro wrestling at its finest

Big Japan/Freedoms:
Miyamoto/Takeda Construction site Deathmatch
Kasai/Masada gusset match
You really can't go wrong with any of the Strong BJ stuff. It's all good strong style wrestling.
There were lots of good BJPW deathmatches in the 00's but they really all do run together.

>>2985883
Damn, really great rundown. Thanks for this

>>2985818
>Always been meaning to get into Memphis but don't know where to start really. I have the Memphis Heat documentary downloaded, is that any good?

Almost the whole Memphis run is on youtube. t's a weekly show and they ran week to week, so any time is really a good time to pick up: Just search Memphis 1985, 1986, 1987, etc and you'll pull the full season up.

(MODS - I'm not trying to shill)I did tons of reviews on my blog, just check through the archives and you'll find some. These are my favorite eps:
http://prowresblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/cwa-memphis-tv-361982.html

http://prowresblog.blogspot.com/2013/12/uswa-memphis-tv-191993-review.html

http://prowresblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/cwa-memphis-tv-3271982-loser-leaves-town.html

Memphis Heat was good.

Onita isn't a great "in ring worker" type, but he is an amazing spectacle wrestler/story teller. Everything from the way he moves, to his facial expressions, selling etc. He makes matches feel big and important. This is one of my favorite matches as a result

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5NbbOoFP3A

>>2985822
>Fmw is the best.

FMW was so much fun. It had a little bit of everything from the insane violence, to the women and strong style wrestling. I think it's a really good transition too into japanese wrestling as it's Americanized a bit and there's lots of recognizable names.

>>2985883
Fucking great taste lad.

>>2985890
>Damn, really great rundown. Thanks for this

NP, got cut off by the limit but the DVDVR wayback link has lots of suggestions and prowrestlingonly breaks down every good match by month.

http://quebrada.net/indexvideo.html also has tapelistings and reviews for just about everything from the 90's and few have seen more than Mike. Should give you all you need to know.

There's really just endless amounts of quality japanese stuff from the 1990's from every promotion.

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>>2985883
I second the Volk Han vs. Kiyoshi Tamura trilogy. Probably the best shootstyle matches you'll ever see.

>>2985944
There really is an overwhelming amount of quality wrestling. Even justlooking at the recommended matches on cagematch is intimidating. I wish someone on XWT would put some collections together outside the famous matches

>>2985964
If anything cagematch pisses me off because you can only rate matches that they deem worthy of being in the matchguide instead of any match and they're very biased in what matches they think are good enough.

>>2985964
XWTClassics has packs of the top 20 NJPW Matches from the 80s & 90s, and a top 20 UWF matches of the 80s pack that are all really good.

They also have FMW, RINGS, UWFi packs.

>>2985977
You can always suggest matches if you want them on the matchguide.

>>2985977
Yeah this is exactly what i mean. I found it great as a beginner's intro, but going beyond that it's really hard to find any hidden gems

>>2985987
Their forums are slow as fuck and most suggestions end up getting ignored.

>>2985989
It's not even the finding matches thing that bothers me. It's that I like to make my own catalog of reccomended matches and would like to use cagematch as a platform for it but I end up being limited to what matches they deem worthy of being reccomended.

>>2985989
If anything it's good to use in conjuction with the great matches list in >>2985944
If cagematch is very clearly biased towards more recent stuff over old stuf then that list is clearly biased the other way around, so I guess that if you use both it evens out.

>>2985529
That fight was pretty great, was that the one where the Gace gets his arm twisted??

>>2985981
>tfw don't have enough ratio to grab this stuff

>>2985581
Yeah in Baba's AJPW submissions were not a choice as a finish because it will make the workers look weak so they preferred the pinfall after a grueling match as the finish.

>>2985610
Inoki>>>>>>Vince

>>2986048
>submissions were not a choice as a finish because it will make the workers look weak
what a stupid fucking meme

>>2986048
And most Ajpw workers didn't have a secondary submission finisher like most Njpw guys. Anyway that is also how some top American Feds booked submissions before the 90s.

Ric Flair said his figure leglock was mostly useless until the 90s. Hogan and other top faces never tapped or rarely submitted.

>>2986077
Honestly the rise of MMA kind of educated people that a submission is a perfectly normal way to lose a match, I think that before that the stigma was that a submission meant that you were giving up.

>>2986082
Nowadays in Japan only Igf-New and Inoki-ism use them in heavyweight matches. They're a rare blip in current G1 and Champion leauges.

Only works on lower tier guys for every other fed. And most heavyweight workers today don't have a secondary submission finisher in current Njpw.

Suwama's sleeper hold can win a match though. And Noah did adopt head only submission finishes to this day.

>>2986082
But still wrestlers do the thing where they stay in a submission for 5 minutes instead of tapping as soon as it's locked in.

The drama should be in whether the hold can be applied, not in the guy trying to get to the ropes. Everyone knows that you tap immediately if the other guy gets you in an armbar or leglock thanks to MMA. Chokes should also stop being used as transition moves.

I swear to god if I get a load of money I'm going to start a realistic wrestling promotion, a new avant-garde style that's like a modern day BattlArts or something.

>>2985581
>Choshu death lock is basically useless in Ajpw 80s.
lol I watched the series of tag matches between Choshu/Yatsu and Jumbo/Tenryu (highly recommended series by the way) and it was sad watching the Scorpion Deathlock die a slow death through those series of matches. First time Choshu slapped it on the fans lost their minds, but it didn't finish the match. And then every other time he slapped it on and it didn't end the match the fans would cheer less and less until they finally realized he was never going to finish anyone with it ever again.

I only recently got into watching wrestling and only watch NJPW right now. First show was KoPW. I watch a lot of the stuff in the archives though. Love watching Inoki, Liger, Ultimo, Muta and Tiger Mask.

What's a good second promotion to check out, AJPW? Wrestle-1? Dragon Gate? I don't have a lot of free time or I'd watch everything, but enough to catch a show every few days.

>>2986164
AJPW for sure

>>2986164
Of course AJPW. AJW as well. Women or not; they were having incredible matches consistently throughout the early to mid nineties.

>>2986164
BASARA.

>>2986164
Watch current Ajpw. They are on the move now. They're gonna expand some more next year.

Or watch old Uwf if you like old Njpw.

Wrestle 1 is alright but the lowest drawing fed besides Noah. Ikeman said tickets aren't selling so good for the next Wrestle 1 k-hall show this week.

Muto went to pro wrestling Masters. He hasn't wrestled for W-1 in months and the latest show had no W-1 workers.

It should be noted Yanno and other anti-Inoki guys wanted Inoki and his crew out. Prior to Bushi-Road buy out, the direction was eventually going to be western style brawls and sports entertainment with the occasional workrate match. But it didn't happen.

Kidani is a mark for old Ajpw. So they went with Tana's love for it too. Tanahashi loves Kobashi.

>>2986170
>>2986171
>>2986189
Cool. I'll check out their last few shows once I get a chance. I'm not too famillar with the promotion other than watching a Misawa match here and there on my lunch breaks on youtube but those were always really cool.

>>2983968
>239 posts
>33 posters

This board might just be the worst board on the internet.

Anyway, W*ING is the best

>>2986112
>The drama should be in whether the hold can be applied,

The struggle to apply a move is something I really miss about wrestling. It's so easy to do.

>>2986251
There was far more discussing in the 00s in the western world. Even if Puroresu wasn't doing so hot.

Dvdr barely talks about it anymore because Noah declined and Ajpw never really restore the workrate of old. Stuart's puroresu board died last year. It's still there but no one posts.


Noah had a lot of casuals and western fans keeping sites alive. Now not so much.

Anyway Fujiwara Gumi is best.

Really recommend the NJPW vs. UWFi Total War in Tokyo Dome 09.10.1995 show.

All the matches are UWFi shootstyle wrestlers vs. New Japan, they're all really fast paced matches with stiff strikes and cool grappling and every match is quite short so nothing drags. You also get to see young Nagata, Takayama and Sakuraba in action which is fun.

Great show.

Is Hashimoto's promotion, Zero1 still a thing at all? I saw a few matches on it when it first started from theditch, but I never see anyone talking about it ever. Though it's hard enough to get info on anything non NJPW as Meltzer doesn't cover it.

Though Chono's last great match was at Zero1 with Daichi Hashimoto.

>>2986273
It's pretty weird. Puro is probably more available than ever before, but there are less people talking about it now, and a constant influx of new fags who don't know anything but can't keep their mouths shut.

>>2986302
It's still existing but as a micro Indy that got bought out again. Some guys left to form lands end which works with Ajp now.

Zero 1 is basically a vanity promotion for a few guys to make a small profit.

Most male pro wrestling companies never really die. Only old Shoot and defunct Joshi and money Mark promotions stay dead, because they're owned by their backers.

>>2986369
I would make a new message board for old stuff and non current Njpw, but message boards are basically dead until the social media finally dies out.

Another thing is the western workrate loving fans of old don't watch it anymore. Even if Njpw increased their workrate. Ajpw 90s and pre late 00s Noah still out worked current Njpw. And to those kind of fans, current Njpw still isn't enough for their tastes.

So they perma left.

>>2986414
you could just make a general here. call it /puro/ or something.