Who was in the wrong here /asp/? > Bret Hart > Vince McMahon

Earl Hebner

HHH

> Damn it D'lo
Vince is in the wrong. I used to be on his side with the whole "he's the boss, you're the employee, you don't refuse what your boss asks". Until I found out Bret had creative control for his last match. At that point he is objectively in the right no matter what.

Anybody who says Bret is wrong is an under-informed, underage mark.

I don't get why people defend Bret, doesn't everyone complain about Hogan and Nash having creative control in WCW?

>>2691784
>I don't get why different people have different opinions about different situations

You might be retarded anon

Bret acted like a petulant bitch and refused to do a job because he's a mark for himself. Based Vince did what was best for business.

>>2691788
> Hey Bret, do you want to job in your hometown against the one man you fucking hate most despite having control over your match?
I am sure that if it was literally anyone else, they could have persuaded him to drop it to some young up and comer.

>>2691759
Bret.

WAHHHH I DUN WANNA LOSE IN MAH HOME CUNTRY TO HBO HEY! :((((

>>2691790
Although good for Vince when he gave Bret a free punch. And boy did Bret take it.

>>2691796
Vince.

WAHHH I DUN WAN ANYONE OTHER THAN MAH ASSHOLE SHAWN TO WIN THE BELT! :((((

>>2691797
That was a smart move by Vince. It meant Bret couldn't sue him because Vince could counter-sue over the punch.

>>2691804
In that case I'm guessing he didn't know the spit in the face could also be classed as assault.

I like how every WWE documentary tries to make it sound like Vince did such a brave thing and if he didn't the EVIL Bret Hart would have turned up on WCW with the WWE Championship laughing and surrounded by Nitro girls sucking his long Canadian dick.

Clearly D'lo Brown

Is The Miz of that era

Bret. Acting like Canada would hate him for life for dropping a belt in a pre-determined match.

>>2691831
I think it was more dropping it to the jackass giving air blowjobs.

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Bret mostly.
As much as you don't like Shawn, and as much as you feel it's unfair that you never got a rematch win over Shawn, it doesn't matter. You're LEAVING the company. You don't get to leave as champ, you don't get to say I'm better than the company and the belt and all the other champs before me. Plus as much of a dick as Shawn was, he was simply even better than Bret as a wrestler. Could do everything Bret could, and then more (high-flying). Plus, WRESTLING ISN'T REAL. It doesn't matter whether your win or lose. Rocky ate 3 Mania title losses in a row including dropping the belt to the same guy twice. And you know what... not only did it not hurt him, he arguably surpassed Austin in popularity over time. Why? Because he's not a dumb dweeb like Bret who thinks wrestling is real. Plus HE was leaving for WCW for more shekels. Sure Vince needed to offload his huge contact, but Bret could have taken a pay cut temporarily if he really cared.

Next (but quite a long way off), Vince was to blame. Why give Bret the belt, as late as August no less, if he knew Bret would be leaving. Keep the belt off him entirely. Or don't book Survivor Series in Canada. Or make Bret's end earlier or later, away from Canada. So many ways Vince could have avoided it.

Finally...Shawn should shoulder a little blame. If he hadn't been such a dick Bret the babbytard wouldn't have been so triggered. He should have done the honors in a rematch at some point. Instead he faked injury to get out of it. So also a mark for himself, also an over inflated ego. (But less so and more understandable because desu he was better than Bret in the ring.)

>tl;dr:
Bret
(POWER GAP)
(POWER GAP)
Vince
(POWER GAP)
Shawn

Bret screwed Bret

>>2691759
Bret Shart is a complete mark and a faggot who should have stuck to the Canadian bingo halls and high school gyms. He never drew a dime.

>>2691896
Why didn't Bret take a pay cut anyway? Before he made peace over the screwjob he went into detail about how much mutual respect he and Vince had and how much he loved the WWF and his loyalty, but he doesn't - to my knowledge - float the idea of taking a pay cut to help the company.

In any case, him leaving left space for Austin to become the face of the WWF which was - in fairness to Bret - more profitable.

>all these people who don't understand it was a work

wew

>>2691933
He was old and he wanted out. Bret was sick of wrestling by 1997 and WCW offered enough for him to retire by 2000 even without the concussion.


Everyone talks about being a mark for himself but leaving that kind of money on the table would've been the markiest thing ever

Shawn but Vince and Bret both reacted the wrong way. Vince by thinking a screwjob was the only way out and Bret by not being more agreeable and enacting creative control against HBK.

The whole thing started because HBK was an asshole about Bret doing him a solid and jobbing to him on the way out. Said he'd take the win but if the boot were on the other foot he wouldn't be doing the same. Grade-A disrespect.

>>2691896
You are a clown for thinking Bret was wrong.

You are a clown for thinking Shawn was better than Bret.

You are a clown for thinking high profile losses don't matter and don't have a negative impact on a wrestler's ability to draw.

You are a clown for thinking that the Rock ever surpassed peak Austin.

You are a clown for thinking that the best wrestler in the business should have to take a pay cut for no reason.

You are a clown for suggesting that Bret's ego was unwarranted.

Never fucking post here again. Go back to clown school.

>>2691896
Survivor Series wasn't going to be Bret's last night or even match in the company. It was in the middle of a Canadian tour and there was going to be a WWF Title defense at the MSG event the following week.

>McMahon marks in charge of knowing even basic facts

>>2691788
>>2691796
Reminder that Shawn openly declared in front of the locker room that he wouldn't be doing any more jobs.

>implying you scrubs ever knew in the first place

>>2691764
This is correct according to Bret himself.

>>2691759
> D'lo Brown

I've seen this meme before, where is it from?

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>>2691975

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>>2691911

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>>2691975
Shawn did everything Bret did (maybe a tad less skilled but more than good enough), plus shit Bret couldn't do. High flying, fast pace, taking bumps, selling, and getting good matches out of potatoes. Bret was great with someone similarly skilled like Shawn, Owen, Benoit, even Backlund. But against shitters or big guys he couldn't do anything. Shawn got 4 star matches every time out of the likes of Vader, Undertaker, Mankind, Ahmed, Sid. Bret's matches against guys like that were slow, shit boring punch-fests. If the opponemt couldn't keep up with Bret's mat wrestling, Bret was out of ideas. The only exception was Austin at Mamia and that's only because it was Austin and NODQ and the commentary was great and even then people overrate it in hindsight because of the a significance. Their earlier Survivor Series match was a snoozefest.

Rock-Austin is debatable because their paths diverted so much eventually, after 02 it was like comparing apples and oranges. But my point was, did it 'hurt' Rock to lose 3 times in a row at Mania? No, because wrestling isn't real.

>>2691975
Bretmark absolutely FUMING

The 2 reasons why I normally can't stand Screwjob threads is (1) 90% of the people discussing it, form their opinions based on which person they like better rather than the facts, and (2) you can tell by their comments that most of them don't even know all of the facts.

Look...I'm a Bret mark, so of course I will look at the facts while hoping that they put Bret in a good light. But I'm not gonna let my being a fan of his, stop me from criticizing him when it's warranted.

ALL parties were wrong to some degree. But here's why I believe Bret was partially in the wrong for the whole mess.

Bret knew there was a possibility of a screwjob, hence why he had Hebner swear on his kids that he would not take part in one. If Bret knew that the situation was getting that bad to the point where he had to worry about a screwjob, then creative control or not he should have done the mature thing and said "Fuck all this shit; lemme just drop the belt to that faggot and go get my Ted Turner money". Dropping the belt on your way out is tradition anyway. Regardless of personal issues with Shawn, he should have avoided any more potential conflict and just dropped the belt the way the boss wanted him to.

I'll even throw a bone and admit that if I was in Vince's position and there was a threat of a wrestler carrying my top belt to another fed, there was no way I would allow that to continue being a possibility, no matter how well I knew the wrestler or how trustworthy he seemed. It was too risky, and a similar incident had already happened to Vince before (Alundra Blayze).

Now if only all of the Bret haters could admit that Vince was at fault for allowing that whole situation to slowly reach that point in the first place...or admit that HBK being a dick and explicitly telling Bret that he would never put him over - RIGHT after Bret tried to extend an olive branch to him - was also a contributing factor to their standoff.

TL:DR: EVERYBODY WAS WRONG. EXCEPT D'LO. D'LO BROWN IS THE MAN.

>>2692017
>But against shitters or big guys he couldn't do anything. Shawn got 4 star matches every time out of the likes of Vader, Undertaker, Mankind, Ahmed, Sid. Bret's matches against guys like that were slow, shit boring punch-fests. If the opponemt couldn't keep up with Bret's mat wrestling, Bret was out of ideas. The only exception was Austin at Mamia and that's only because it was Austin and NODQ and the commentary was great and even then people overrate it in hindsight because of the a significance. Their earlier Survivor Series match was a snoozefest.

The sad part is you're not bullshitting. You actually believe this >>>/trash/

P.S. HBK never wrestled Ahmed Johnson.

Everyone but Bret. Bret was popular in America and he was a star internationally, he was the best worker in the business, and Vince McMahon knew it. That's why he wanted Bret to sign that ridiculous contract in the first place.

If you ever read his book, you'd know not only did Bret despise Shawn Michaels, not only did he have creative control over a match taking place in his home country, but he literally said he would drop the belt to ANYONE but Shawn Michaels, because he hated him that much.

Literally no one outside the Kliq and WWE apologists have anything good to say about HBK. The guy was the absolute biggest piece of shit in the world who damaged more careers than can be counted just because he could. Fuck HBK.

People forget that Vince did this exact shit with Wendi Richter exactly 10 years before this. Vince shoulders all the blame and no one else, not Bret, not Shawn, not Haitch, not Hebner. Vince has always shown himself to be a real pos.

>>2691759


Over what ? the Montreal Shoot Job ?

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>>2691759

It's a work that only Bret and Vince know the truth.

Vince and Bret were like father and son and Vince was straight with Bret about how they were losing to WCW. So Bret opted to go to WCW, bleed them of money, waste their time and come back. They worked out a genius Screw Job, to get attention and make sure cameras are rolling for Wrestling in Shadows to make it all seem legit. Bret Hart and Vince created the Attitude Era. Bret Hart saved the WWF/E

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>>2691759

Anyone who says Bret should have done the job just has no fucking idea who the fuck who HBK is.

This is a guy who managed to never loss a title via a match

He didn't lose his first IC belt due to fucking around, it was taken away
He didn't lose his 2nd IC belt due to just dropping it
He didn't lose his first tag with Diesel, just vacated
He didn't lose his first World Champ belt due to MY SMILE
He didn't lose his 2nd tag run with Austin due to drama again

He FINALLY lost CLEAN via Austin and the beginning of the FUCK YOU SHAWN GO AWAY Attitude Era.

Imagine, this faggot had 5 different belts in the WWF and never lay on his back for a single one to change hands

Bret didn't want to lose and people eat him up. Shawn made a whole career at not losing and would politic his way out of every belt he had to look "over". Mostly by having sex with Vince.

>>2692229
I've always wanted to believe this, but I think Owen's preventable death would have led to Bret exposing the whole thing, as opposed to continuing to maintain a work for a man that had his brother die on his watch

>>2692251
This, finally history is being looked at clearly and the Kliq is slowing being shown for the cancer they really were for the industry.

- Shawn ruined Vince's bank account
- Diesel was a blackhole of loss for WWF in 1995
- Kevin Nash and Scott Hall went to WCW, made them money, but also cost them MORE money and didn't do much wrestling. And they would just push for more raises till the company went belly up.
- Let's not even talk about Kevin Nash booking in WCW
- HHH and his backstage bullshit that now is going to be the end of all wrestling come the death of Vince.

>>2692252
Bret is a serious guy and he takes wrestling seriously. I honest to god can picture him keeping up the angle in the name of kayfabe wrestling and his character and he would tell himself "Owen would understand" It's not a knock at Bret, it's a honest to god opinion of how he would rationalize it.

And again, only Bret and Vince know the truth, so everyone else is still being worked.

>>2692251
You know, I use to give him shit over him dropping the belt over losing his smile, but holy shit, I forgot about how all his past titles up to that point were the same shit. It was not till Austin put the boots to him and Taker waiting in the back with his hands taped up, did Shawn put over a guy clean in a match for a belt he had.

I think the only time he put over someone when he had a belt was Sid, but it not clean. Hunter said in a shoot interview back in 2000 with RF Video that Shawn wanted an excuse to drop Jose and he knew that Sid would be shit with the title and give Shawn more sympathy with Vince and most so the crowd. But even then, he lost via his manager having a heart attack and chair shots to a screwy finish. His only belt "loss" till Stone Cold.

>>2691759
Shawn is ding-dong diddly based. Bret "The Shitman" Fart is just an autistic virgin loser who couldn't play politics. Politicking is as important in wrestling as selling, and Bret just didn't have those skills.

>>2691975
BTFO

>>2692229
>>2692271
Careful, you might be dumber than the underage HBK fanboy.

>>2691759

everyone

bret for being a bitch about losing the title to hbk on ppv
vince for not changing the opponent then
hbk for being a accomplice

>>2691759
Vince was right, considering that otherwise Bret Hart would have turned up on WCW with the WWE Championship laughing and surrounded by Nitro girls sucking his long Canadian dick.

dont put creative control in a contract if you cant uphold it.

>>2692632
Bret would never do that though, he was a legit morally upstanding guy and also such a mark for himself and his role model status to risk throwing that all in the trash no pun intended.

There were two people in the company who you didn't have to worry about that sort of thing happening: Bret Hart and Taker.

>>2692632
No he wouldn't because WCW would get sued out the ass. Bret had creative control. Vince's own fault.

>>2692229

Far too many moving parts involved for it to be a work.

>>2691896
>>2692038

The two most accurate posts here

Someone explain the random-ass D'Lo Brown name drop, I'm legit laughing out loud at it

>>2693221
It's just a little joke addition to the list.

>>2691759
>Who was in the wrong here /asp/?

Bret more than anyone. Despite any clauses in his contract, for a guy who always preaches about "the business" and "doing things the right way", he should have dropped the title. Bret thinking that it was actually OK to walk away as the champ was ludicrous. Putting someone over when you are walking out is what you do.

>>2691790
>I am sure that if it was literally anyone else, they could have persuaded him to drop it to some young up and comer.
>>2691799
>WAHHH I DUN WAN ANYONE OTHER THAN MAH ASSHOLE SHAWN TO WIN THE BELT!

That's 100% false. It's been reported and confirmed by Jim Cornette, Jerry Lawler, Patt Paterson, and even Jim Ross that Bret had the option to drop the title before the Canadian tour started but he refused. Bret actually had complete creative control over the last 2 weeks of his contract not just one match. Ross has said that Vince also gave him the option to drop it to Vader or Kane and then either one of them would eventually drop it to HBK later on. Bret hated that idea also cause he said it would make him look weak since HBK would be beating the guy who beat him. No matter what Vince tried to do to appease Bret, he hated it. Vince was in a no win situation.

Austin was considered for the title but Vince wanted to wait till WM to give him the belt. There was more money in Austin getting the belt at WM than at a house show of course.

>>2692229
>It's a work that only Bret and Vince know the truth.

I honestly think there is 80% chance this is true.

>>2693671
When Vince dies, he is going to let us all know it was one big work

And he will fire HHH

>>2691759
Brett Shawn and Vince all three were wrong Brett and Shawn for being fucking petulant children and fucking Divas and Vince for being a egotistical fuck head no one was right in this and anyone who thinks that is a retarded because it was all over ego and pride so they were nothing more then fucking man children in a fucking sand box.

>>2691786
t. retarded bretcuck

>>2693671
>Putting someone over when you are walking out is what you do.
>>2693671
He wasn't walking out. There were months of scheduled dates left to drop the belt. Stop with this WWE revisionist bullshit narrative. Are people like you dense, or just fucking retarded?

>>2691896
>You don't get to leave as champ
He didn't plan to, he just refused to drop it to Shawn in Canada but Vince wanted it on Shawn at Survivor Series which was in Canada, so they screwed him.

>>2691759
Bret.

Do the fucking job.

That. Simple.

>>2694328
HBK wouldn't.

>>2694373
>HBK wouldn't.

Which was the main reason why Bret wouldn't do the job to him, and was also essentially why the Screwjob happened. I can't believe so many people don't even realize this. And I can't believe other people are suggesting that Bret should have "just did the job" after that happened.

Just a month before Survivor Series, and several months after their shoot backstage 'Sunny Days' fight, Bret was big enough to give a peace offering to Shawn. He tells Shawn he has no problem putting him over. And then the asshole gets disrespectful as fuck and tells Bret that he wouldn't do the same for him.

Was Bret really supposed to be a little bitch and just continue to bend over backwards for that little shit after that unnecessary-ass comment? For what? Just so 20 years later HBGayfags on the internet could constantly boast and post "Based Shawn dictating to the Cuckman; bossing him around like he was his daddy"?

I'd rather have you idiots call Bret a bitter crybaby, than call him Shawn's bitch any day. And best believe, if the story went that Bret willingly laid down for Shawn after that comment without fighting that match outcome, that would definitely be the narrative today. Yes, Shawn was in a better position of power and technically won the battle in the end, but the point is Bret went out swinging and didn't just submit to Vince and that asshole like a bitch. That is what real men do. And I'll always give him props for that.

>>2694671
People love to ignore as well that bret legally could not appear on WCW for a few more weeks as per his contract. WCW was also in huge hot water from the last time they pulled that stunt and was still in court defending themselves over it.

Vince being Vince though just had to have a big moment at survivor series and that's the real reason it happened.

>>2691790
Montreal isn't bret' s hometown

>>2694373
>HBK wouldn't
Who gives a fuck. Do your job and move on. Let Vince deal with his delusional egomaniac while you're getting shitloads of money at his competitor.

you guys know this was a work right?

>>2692758
I want someone to explain RIGHT NOW why this couldn't possibly be an epic work that only Bret and Vince were in on

I am not saying that I believe it's a work. I don't. But I find it hard to believe that there is ZERO possibility that it was a clever, thorough work

Question: Why were Vince, Slaughter, Patterson and Brisco present at ringside for the match? Was there a storyline reason for that? Shouldn't that have tipped off Bret to what was about to happen?

The bigger question is what would any grown man give a fuck?

>>2695071

Nigga...you literally just saw a thread about the screwjob then took the time and effort to post in it

>>2694982
this
it's the most elaborate work of all time and they somehow pulled it off

D'lo screwed Bret. If he hadnt of peer pressured Bret to not drop it in Canada, none of this would have even happened.

nobody was in the wrong they were just doing what they sat in an office and came up with to get more people talking.

Wrestling is fake you guys. It's a god damn work. How are you getting worked by an obvious work and thinking its a shoot when clearly it's a work. You fucking marks.

>>2695122

The number one thing that convinced me it was a work, was the fact that the Wrestling With Shadows documentary cameramen just happened to be in place that night and were allowed by Vince to be there. Why would Vince allow that when he knew he was about to do something incredibly controversial to the subject of their documentary?

The number two thing that convinced me it was a work, was the fact that earlier that year and months before Survivor Series, there was an ongoing storyline of Bret constantly getting screwed over in matches, Bret constantly bitching about getting screwed, and other wrestlers calling him a whiner and a crybaby for it. Then it just so happens that for Bret's final WWF match, he gets screwed over "in real life" by the owner? How big of a coincidence is that?

It wouldn't be the first time a WWE wrestler kept a work a secret. Big Show lied for years about his ring break with Lesnar being real and unplanned, all to maintain the work. Only thing is with the Screwjob, it could only have been pulled off if only Bret and Vince were in the know, while keeping the other key players (Shawn, Hebner, Brisco, Triple H, etc.) in the dark.

The 20-year anniversary of the Screwjob is coming up in a couple of months. Hopefully Vince has something interesting up his sleeve for that day.......

>>2691759
Dlo

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>>2695691

Look at the smug look on that fat, hook-headed idiot's face......

HE KNOWS WHAT HE DID

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>>2691975

/thread

>>2691759
D'lo screwed Droz, thats for sure

>>2693720
>He wasn't walking out.

Yes he was. He negotiated with WCW and gave his notice to Vince. He was leaving and no matter what should have dropped the belt but he refused.

>>2693720
>There were months of scheduled dates left to drop the belt.

No there wasn't you fucking retard. Vince knew he was "probably" going to leave but up until a month before he gave his notice, Vince still believed he could resign him. Bret had the opportunity to drop it on several occasions within that month but like I said earlier,he constantly refused and came up with excuse after excuse not to drop it.

In the end, Bret looked like and acted like a spoiled brat and completely ruined his credibility to 90% of the fans. It's really telling how awful his actions were when his own father said he was wrong for not dropping the title. What Vince did wasn't OK, but Bret created a scenario that forced Vince to do what was best for his company. Bret should have considered his fellow wrestlers, including his own brother Owen, and how his leaving with belt would effect their careers and how the WWF would look. He practically spit in the face of ever single person in that locker room that day just cause he didn't want to look bad in "muh Canada."

You're the one acting like a fucking retard.

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>>2691975

>>2695928

All this garbage you typed and not once did you acknowledge Shawn's role in why Bret was so stubborn about not dropping the belt to him in the first place.

You actually expected Bret to be a coward and let Shawn talk whatever mess to him about never jobbing for Bret, directly after Bret tried to be the bigger man and told Shawn he had no problem doing a job for him? You wanna talk about practically spitting in someone's face? There's a perfect example of it.

It's people like you who would join Vince's KMA club. Bret had more self-respect than that, and understood that there are more important things than "doing what the boss says no matter what".

>>2695711

Suspicious D'Lo needs to be a meme

>>2691759
Bret was in the wrong. He should have been a professional and let go of his toy belt. He put Vince in a corner by refusing to drop the title because "muh Canada". He tainted the rest of his career by being such a mark for himself.

>>2693671
>tfw never got Austin/Vader at WM for the title

seething

>>2694373
>what was Wrestlemania XIV

>>2696471

Stop trolling.

You know good and damn well that faggot literally had to be threatened with bodily harm to do the job to Austin.

>>2695928
WWF was in the middle of a Canada tour when Montreal happened and Bret was still booked for many upcoming events, including a title defense in MSG.

18+

>>2696482
>including a title defense in MSG.
Bret vs. Steve vs. Shawn vs. Undertaker. Would have been the GOAT 4-way match.

How easy this would have been to avoid if they wanted:

Bret vs. Shawn vs. third guy
Shawn pins third guy
Shawn get title
Bret doesn't get pinned or submitted and can claim that nobody ever beat him for the title
Third guy gets push as reward for helping transition the title peacefully

That is if they really wanted a peaceful transition