I wanna start watching Misawa's work - Where should I start?

ufff you are talking about the real best in the world, not meme. You should check her feud with Kawada is simply awesome, later some matches in Noah doing the great emerald.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUVA5qchql0

>>2298567
I've watched one of his matches with Kobashi - Shit's the real deal. I also saw a bunch of his work as Tiger Mask

>>2298577
His shit with Kobashi is the best, and contrary to what many people say I don't think their 2003 match in NOAH was their best, their late-90's matches, particularly the oney they had in 98, were the best.

>>2298586
I guess they pick the '03 one in regards to the kings road style they use in the matches. If I'm right, their last match would have been in '03 so in terms of storytelling it'd be the match with the most depth

>>2298594
I don't agree, they worked a very king's road like style in the 90's and their 03 match wasn't much different. In fact, it was about 10 minutes shorter than their previous matches and some spots, particularly the finish, didn't quite build the proper amount of drama they should have. I guess the reason why people rate it so high it's because it's the match where Kobashi finally hits the Burning Hammer on a 1v1 match with Misawa and finally beats him, but, possibly due to time constraints, it kinda of just happened, not nearly as dramatic as I imagined it being.

>>2298600
t b h I've noticed that most japanese wrestlers don't know how to build up drama. I hate seeing matches where a 450 splash will be a false finish along with frankensteiners and intricate powerbombs, but the actual finish will be a generic back suplex

>>2298608
Well that's probably because moves have different kayfabe powerlevels depending on the promotion, like in Japan a simple lariat or german suplex is finisher worthy.

But that problem doesn't apply to the Burning Hammer believe me, that move is legit the most dangerous looking move ever done, Kobashi only used it like 7 times in his whole career, it's a level beyond a finisher, and in that match it was just like
>Kobashi hits big move, Misawa kicks out at 2.999, Kobashi can't believe it, sets Misawa up for the Burning Hammer hits it and wins
It would've have been much better in my opinion if Misawa countered the first attempt at a Burning Hammer, fought back for a bit before getting overwhelmed by Kobashi who then finally hits the move.

>>2298616
Yea I feel ya, the burning hammer is truly something special.

>>2298616
Oh and to continue my last point, I love seeing ordinary moves being used as a finish, but it feels so unimpactful in the final stages of a match where everyone is busting out their supermoves, only to be taken out by a driver or something

>>2298630
I get what you mean, but most times that's just you being a bit unfamiliar with the finishers of those wrestlers. But yeah some guys really do choose finishers that look a lot weaker than the rest of their moveset.

>>2298637
Yeah I just figure that whatever move they're finishing with is their actual finisher. I do like the fact that in a lot of matches, a regular move can be a finish. It really makes normal moves mean a lot more - for example, you know for a fact Cena won't win with a suplex, but if a Dynamite Kid dropped one, it's a very viable finish

>>2298662
>a regular move can be a finish
I don't know how many Kobashi matches you've watched but in many of his matches he basically just clobbers the other guy with chops and lariats until they just don't move anymore. It's one of my favorite ways to end a match.

>>2298674
My only comparison would be when Daniel Bryan would just elbow a motherfucker unconscious for his finish

>>2298555
vs Jumbo then just watch every big match afterwards because they're all great (check Cagematch for a list)

>fun fact: Misawa vs Kawada is technically the first unofficial S I X S T A R match

>>2298555
Watch the tag match with Kawada where he unmasks as Tiger Mask II. It's not necessary but you may as well for completeness
Then watch his feud with Jumbo, which is where he's elevated to Big Fuckin' Deal status
Then from there just progress through the stuff with the other Four Pillars until NOAH, watch chronologically or not at all

I dunno I'm not really a Misawa guy

>>2298555
>Outlaw wrestling
literally who is this goof

>>2299116
Dude memes aside I consider this guy the japanese equivalent of someone like Bret. Anyone who has watched this bastard knows he's some legit shit

>>2299116

>OLD DAY ROCKS! OLD DAY ROCKS!

What did he mean by this?

>>2299586
I'd say you're correct, but even Bret couldn't lace Misawa's boots.

Misawa vs Kawada and Misawa vs. Kobashi feuds/matches are simply the greatest all of time.

>>2299929
Funnily enough I watched Bret and Misawa fight one time, when he was Tiger Mask. The match was actually terrible for the most part - Chemistry I guess, but by the time they finally started working well they hit the time limit draw.

>>2299586
>the japanese equivalent of someone like Bret
Eternally butthurt and below average?

>>2299940
Man I swear you guys don't even watch wrestling.

6/3/94

>>2298608

Considering a generic back duplex actually killed Misawa, I'd say it fits as a more dangerous move.

Also what? Tiger Driver 91' looks fucking disgusting.

>>2298608
>t b h I've noticed that most japanese wrestlers don't know how to build up drama.
Yes they do.

> I hate seeing matches where a 450 splash will be a false finish along with frankensteiners and intricate powerbombs, but the actual finish will be a generic back suplex
That's because you're not understanding the psychology. King's Road matches were absolute wars and it was believable that down the stretch any hard or violent move could put your opponent away. That's why sometimes you'd have matches end on a German suplex or Rolling Elbow: not because those moves were treated as the end all, be all of finishers, but because of everything that transpired BEFORE those moves. King's Road specifically treated the Four Pillars as almost invincible wrestling gods that needed to take an ungodly amount of punishment before being pinned. This isn't the WWE psychology of finishers finishing matches almost 100% of the time regardless of how shitty the finisher is: on the King's Road you actually had to destroy your opponent and hitting him with your finisher was not a guaranteed win.

>>2298555
Who??

>>2300571
Yeah that's what I put it down to. It's not a bad thing at all that they used a seemingly ordinary move as a finish, as a matter of fact I don't have a problem with it - But it is really strange to see when the match is getting increasingly more hype and you're wondering what they're gonna pull out to finally put someone away

>>2300648
>But it is really strange to see when the match is getting increasingly more hype and you're wondering what they're gonna pull out to finally put someone away
And that's when the King's Road starting going down hill (kek). They eventually started to rely TOO much on the near pinfalls and everyone was kicking out of everything. It made sense story-wise since the Pillars got kayfabe stronger throughout the years, but you're eventually going to hit a wall and that's what happened: They started relying more and more on head drops and near pinfalls instead of the intricate physical storytelling of the early-to-mid 90s.

That's also why I personally consider Kawada to have been the best Pillar because he never had to rely on head drops or constant near pinfalls to have exciting matches. That was Misawa's bag and Kobashi to a lesser extent, though he was content with being led in a match by Kawada or Misawa.

>>2300670
I think that's the issue with King's Road as a whole. I've seen some matches literally end on a rollup after all these moves and while it doesn't ruin the match, it completely kills the hype from the finish.

Side note, did King's Road pave the way for the typical indie style we see today? In a company like ROH matches quickly become spotfests where people will spam the roughest of moves and still kick out at 2. I also saw the AJ/Cena rivalry as pretty similar to that King's Road style, with each match having them kick out of each other's best moves, forcing them to go above and beyond

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Reminder that Misawa was the inspiration for The GOAT:

>>2300687
>I think that's the issue with King's Road as a whole. I've seen some matches literally end on a rollup after all these moves and while it doesn't ruin the match, it completely kills the hype from the finish.
You should watch Misawa vs. Kobashi 01/20/97. It's a great match that tells a solid, exciting story, but then you get to the closing stretch and you can FEEL the crowd's excitement deflate as the match keeps going on and on when it logically should have ended 5 minutes or so before the actual end. It doesn't ruin the match, but it's very much an example of the King's Road starting to run out of steam.

>>2300687
>Side note, did King's Road pave the way for the typical indie style we see today? In a company like ROH matches quickly become spotfests where people will spam the roughest of moves and still kick out at 2. I also saw the AJ/Cena rivalry as pretty similar to that King's Road style, with each match having them kick out of each other's best moves, forcing them to go above and beyond
I'm sure some wrestlers were of course inspired by the King's Road, but I'm sure it's more of a case of them eventually figuring out on their own a crowd will pop loudest for near falls and finisher kick outs. PWG is a really bad example of this: wrestlers will purposely wrestle like spot machines there with tons of kick outs and near falls because the crowd expects them too. Even the opening fucking matches do this shit and it can be a bit too much.

>>2299929
> Bret couldnt lace Misawho's boots
How many 10/10 matches did Misawa get out of the gook equivalent of shitters like Kevin Nash anon?

You start with his work with Tsurata then go on to his feud with Kawada then on to his matches with Kobashi in the late 90s.

>>2300787
How many of his best matches were against people that werent that great in the ring?

>>2300799
Taue wasn't that good compared to his peers and Misawa was in his best singles match. Also takes a special talent to make Jumbo give a shit in a match but outside of that he was main event level in 90s AJPW. There's not much in the way of shit workers he could've worked with. There were no bad luck fales or kevin nashs in the main event scene in AJPW.

>>2300863
>There's not much in the way of shit workers he could've worked with.
This. Misawa rarely, if ever, had to carry another wrestler because the quality of workers was so high in the upper card of All Japan.

>>2300863
>Taue wasn't that good compared to his peers
Niggas just don't know

>>2300863
Im talking about Misawa's best matches, not Tauwho's. If he only had great matches with great oppoments then he isnt fit to lace up Bret's laces

>>2300867
are you seriously implying carrying a piece of shit like diesel to an acceptable match is what determines skill level?
>the state of e-drones

yeah sure Bret had some great matches in his pocket, because of his opponents who were better wrestlers than him, but they don't even touch the level of workrate the AJPW guys did

>>2300867
>If he only had great matches with great oppoments then he isnt fit to lace up Bret's laces
What "great" Bret Hart matches against shitty workers are you even talking about? Misawa, in his prime, pretty much never had a 'bad' match against any opponent. But both wrestlers, and their respective promotions, were simply on different levels when it came to wrestler/match quality with All Japan being MUCH higher than WWE. An average Misawa match would have been considered very good in WWE at the time.

>>2300878
>are you seriously implying carrying a piece of shit like diesel to an acceptable match is what determines skill level?
It does in WWE apparently. I don't think he's watched any Misawa or King's Road matches.

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King's Road is good and all but also boring as fuck most of the time
80s NJPW is the true pinnacle of Japanese wrestling
Maeda shoot kicking Choshu in the face is a better moment than 99% of King's Road wankfests

>wrestling skills matter in fake wrestling
You guys are sad.

>>2300919
hi Inoki!

>>2300926
>acting skills matter in fake movies
18+

>>2300934
That analogy doesn't work. A better analogy would be >fighting skills matter in fake movies.

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>>2300930
Sup Carter, glad to see you finally got into the puroresu.

>>2300944
That's Hojofag.

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Praise be to the true saviour of wrestling

>>2300958
Real subtle.

I feel like a lot of people just meme about ALMOST KILLED THE COMPANY etc and forget that Inoki was a legit incredible wrestler and created one of the best products in wrestling
I can forgive Inokiism (because non-shooters deserve everything they get tbqh), I would much rather direct my hate to someone like Choshu for fucking up the Juniors

>>2300866
I love Taue don't get me wrong, literally bases his matches around "hey man let me head drop you from the apron to the floor real quick" and his tag team with Kawada was the dopest tag team of the decade but he's the weakest link.

Kawada best pillar btw

>>2300919
>not the 3 musketeers of NJPW in the 90s
>implying hashimoto isn't the GOAT

>>2300942
>what is jackie chan's entire career

>>2300969
The original Big Match Hash is GOAT indeed but the 80s is just complete perfection
Go watch the NEW vs NOW elimination tag or the NJPW vs UWF elim tag and tell me that's not the best shit ever, the first one especially

>>2300966
Taue came way more into his own in NOAH honestly

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>>2300969
>Hashimoto
>Gets destroyed by a real shooter, based Ogawa-san
>Ever being the GOAT
>mfw

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>>2300976
>>2300958
You guys are allright.

>>2298740
Meltzer gave more than 5 stars to a Flair/Steamboat house show match, but it's not officially rated because it wasn't televised.

>>2300976
Ogawa? Rat Boy?

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>>2301053
Naoya Ogawa, olympic judoka and favoured of Inoki-sama

>>2300878
> tfw cucter tries to talk to you
Kek didnt even read

>>2300881
Try reading the thread. How many 10/10 matches did Misawho have against shitters like Kevin Nash? Bret got a fucking 3 star against Will Sasso

>>2300883
Another weeb that cannot read. Are you trying to imply getting GOAT matches out of shit workers doesnt make you a better wrestler?

>>2301090
Vic Venom, is that you?

>>2301092
Literally who. Fuck off back to wew

>>2301090
It's not Bret's fault he barely ever got to work with elite workers, but Misawa's best matches blow Bret's out of the water. Austin pre neck break was a fantastic worker and him and bret had a hot feud leading to a 5 star match that's still probably the best match in WWE history.

It's still not better than most Kawada vs Misawa or Misawa vs Kobashi or Jumbo vs Misawa matches.

>>2300730
PWG is literally a meme promotion though, wrestlers just do whatever random dumb shit they want to do there, it's kind of the point.

>>2301090
>drones are literally niggers that refuse logic and cannot read
the absolute state

>>2301192
It's a tough debate. WWF agents would never let them work a king's road style, even if they had the chance - It'd be considered a spotfest beyond a certain point, and most WWF stars like to protect their finishers. If I'm right, literally nobody reversed Bret's sharpshooter.

>>2301192
Thanks for the coherent reply but it doesnt answer my question. I will ask again
How many 10/10 matches did misawho put on against kevin nash tier workers?

>>2301610
>How many 10/10 matches did misawho put on against kevin nash tier workers?
And how many times do you have to be told that Misawa never wrestled anyone as bad as Kevin Nash? And you're a fuckin' goober if you think ANY Kevin Nash match is 10/10. Bret Hart worked with shit workers his entire career and did the best he could and that's commendable, but Misawa DIDN'T work with shit workers his entire career because wrestling quality overall in Japan was higher. Do you understand yet? You keep asking for something that doesn't exist and it's not because Misawa avoided working with shitty wrestlers or wasn't able to; it's because he never HAD to work with shitty wrestlers. Bret was forced to work with shitty wrestlers on a regular basis. And you're also overrating the fuck out his carry jobs.

>>2301657
Not the guy you're talking to but Bret vs Diesel at Survivor Series 95 is fantastic and by far Nash's best match.

"10/10" might be far but it's likely the best little vs big guy match ever

>>2301657
Misawa only had GOAT matches with GOAT workers
Bret Hart had a GOAT match with Kevin Nash

Its obvious who the superior wrestler is here

>>2301662
Its easily 10/10, everything was perfect from the storytelling to the selling to the build to the action. Like you said its the greatest David vs Goliath match up ever

>>2301672
Yea; Misawa. And Hart vs. Nash would have been considered above average at best in All Japan.

>>2300716

AKI man really drew big cash

Press F to respect the AKI man

>>2300863
>Taue wasn't that good compared to his peers

Taue was a badass mofo

>>2301689
It seems Misawa never had a great match against a shit worker. Sorry that the truth hurts bud

>>2301683
>greatest David vs Goliath match up
sorry but that belongs to Danielson vs Morishima

>>2301726
>morishima is 6'3
>"goliath"

>>2301732
You stupid idiot!!!!

Danielson is 5'2, of course morishima is a Goliath

>>2301739
He's a manlet but not that bad

>>2301722
>Haha! Hart had a match against Kevin Nash that would have been considered only decent in Misawa's home promotion while Misawa churned out 5 star matches on a regular basis! That proves Hart was the better wrestler even if he never had any matches on the same level as Misawa!
I know you've never actually watched any of Misawa's matches so you can stop pretending you know what you're talking about.

>>2301744
Make as many excuses and backtrack as much as you want, it changes nothing

Misawho only had GOAT matches against other GOAT talents

Bret had GOAT matches against shitters like Nash. Hence Bret is by far the better wrestler

Bret also wasnt a finisher-spam monkey

If you have nothing else to add to the conversation then just stop talking

>>2301839
>that huge fucking jump in logic
do e-drones even have a brain?

>>2301839
>if you don't meet my retarded criteria then you're not as good a worker as someone else
>it's determined by carrying shit workers
>Misawa spammed finishers

You literally have never watched a Misawa match and if you have it's the last GOAT tier matches he had with his rivals in which they were kicking out of finishers. Most of the time, Emerald Flowsion finished the match.

Also, does this make Tanahashi the GOAT? Bad Luck Fale blows Nash out of the water when it comes to being fucking awful and Tanahashi's had multiple great matches with him. Tana's also had good matches while in the same ring as fucking captain new japan, Yujiro and Nakanishi.

>>2301877
> fat yoshi tatsu
Yep, it makes him leagues better than pisawa

>>2301866
> deanNEET is still trying to talk to me
Kekekek no one reads your shit lad
Stop trying

>>2301877
>Bad Luck Fale blows Nash out of the water when it comes to being fucking awful

Name one 4 star Nash match.

>>2301894
>no one reads your shit
>has to read my shit to make a reply
just stop drone you're embarrassing yourself

>>2301899
Being carried by the universal ace is what we're arguing. Bad Luck Fale shit up more shows than Nash did with his in ring work. Nash shits up terrible matches past the year 2000 on terrible shows while surrounded by shit/average/mediocre wrestlers while bad luck fale shits up the G1 which is the best time of the year in njpw.

>>2301894
So you admit Tanahashi is better than Bret Hart and literally anyone else?

>>2301894
just filter the fucking leaf, thats what i do

>>2301739
He's a legit 5'8 but he's no doubt a small guy. Morishima is 6'3 - Average in the biz, but actually huge compared to a 5'8 190lbs guy. He was also fat as all hell which helps lol

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Also a universal point for this shitstorm of a thread (OP here, I'm dissapointed in you fucks but honestly not suprised)

Bret and Misawa wrestled a match - I think it was in the dome. It was terrible. They had no chemistry and by the time they got used to each other they hit a time limit draw. It sucks but it shows that both of your darlings can have a bad match.


Also Nash is fucking based, he wasn't a good wrestler but he could still work, and he had genuine charisma.

>>2301907
I actually read this one because it was short and it is as stupid as ever

You seem to be confused.
You have a name and tripcode at the top of your posts. I dont have to read your shit to reply i just have to see your name and know its one of your '''''personalities'''''

>>2301909
Not at all, where did you gleam that from? He is better than shitawa for sure
Bret's matches are more than shitty slingblade spam and crossbodies

>>2301960
I unironically love Nash as a performer.

>>2301962
>much schizophrenic boogeyman
god the drones on this board are paranoid and delusional as fuck

>>2301993
He's obviously limited, but what he does he does pretty well. His routine looks good. People forget this dude had the 24/7 counsel of HBK, of course he was gonna be decent.

>>2301732
>Lesnar is 6'3"
>"Goliath"

Misawa is better than Bret, but Kawada is better than Misawa.

>>2298555
>outraw peruwrestringu

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>>2301960
>Also Nash is fucking based, he wasn't a good wrestler but he could still work, and he had genuine charisma.


Now, Kevin Nash could certainly sell a story, I'll give him that.