Fun facts: -The Cena era is the one that turned away ''casuals''

>>2124193
It's not your fault

>the Cena era is the one that turned "casuals" awa-

Stopped reading right there, Triple H's terrible run on raw from mid 2002- early 05 is what killed it. Batista and then Cena stopped the decline Gaytch brought

>>2124196
no, it was Cena.

>>2124199
Nope, it was Gaytch

Check the drop from 2001 to early 05 and then look at the numbers from mid 05-08. The drop isn't nearly as drastic as it was when Raw was Gaytch running around with his fake for horsemen stable

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>>2124193
>charisma

This has always been the only important thing in becoming a draw. Doesn't matter if you're shit in ring or good in ring.

Whether you're Warrior or Omega, what people are drawn to is your personality and your ideals. Just look at pic related. His ring skills are great but they're not evident from this image alone. What *is* evident is a unique look and personality.

OP is 100% correct.

>>2124196
> Batista and then Cena stopped the decline Gaytch brought

Doesn't show anywhere in the ratings. Ratings for the Cena era say it was a steady decline over a decade from 4+ rating to the approximate 2.0 we have today.

I loved Batista's turn, but he was already 36 at the time.

The only thing Cena succeeded in was to make wrestling watched mainly by hardcore fans, who ironically hated him. Epic business failure by Vince.

>>2124193
Nobody knew who john Cena was before this meme. He didn't turn casuals away because there were none

Rock and Austin leaving at around the same time and then a full year of HHH feuding with WCW rejects is the decline

The two most bought manias of all time were both main evented by Cena. You can argue trump and rock were the draws, but still

>>2124209
They stopped drawing 4.0s consistently by 2003, they floated around the mid 3s throughout that year occasionally drawing some early 4s

>>2124205
For the sake of it, even when Austin and Rock were around in 2001, WWF went from 6-7 to 5, which is a bigger loss than HHH's run.

That's just the bubble bursting.

>>2124208
Yes and no.

If you have charisma but move like Khali these days, you are still going to get laughed at.

I'd agree charisma is the primary factor for success though, over wrestling ability.
Want to switch to other disciplines as well? See Ronda. She was never that good of a fighter, however she was the first relevant woman, hence drew. Conor draws out of charisma mainly, but if he couldn't fight for crap, he wouldn't draw.

Conclusion: you need a decent level of fighting (or wrestling) skills to be successful, it is necessary but not sufficient to be a draw. Charisma is what adds the dimes. You need to be able to go tv, talk trash and add interest in you.

>a full year of HHH feuding with WCW rejects is the decline

This. Nobody tunes in for the heel.

>>2124229
2001 was awful creative wise, i think Steph had a role in creative that year

really makes you think

>>2124229
Rock left for four months and Steve Austin turned heel at the same time, they lost both of their top faces in two nights

>>2124199
no it was the kliq.

haitch from 02 to 05
hbk record low in 07
haitch from 08-10

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>>2124209

>Ratings actually rise after Cena's debut on RAW

Are you retarded?

>>2124240
this Cena and Batista being pushed helped them short term, unlike the shieldettys

>>2124240
Triple H was a mistake

>>2124236
>>2124237
I wouldn't over-read 2001 mini-crash. The truth is simple, Monday Night Wars drew, because it was real competition between two companies. In 2001, WWE won, people tuned off and the whole business went into restructuring.

Sure WWE made plenty of mistakes during those months, but it's normal considering the radical switch the wrestling business saw. Vince went from being a competitor, to the sole owner of the big 3 (ECW included).

By 2005 however, the restructuring was done. Vince chose his stars and none of them managed to be a breakout. Yes, Cena sold tons of merchandise, but wrestling progressively became more and more fringe. He didn't break boundaries, nor even expand them.

>>2124240
> 1 year (2005-6) is relevant
>decline from 2006 to 2015 isn't relevant because.....


Get a trip so that I can filter you. I'm not discussing with people who cherry pick a single year and ignore a trend of a decade.

>>2124256
So while they were "restructuring", Gaytch was turning away viewers for 2 1/2 years. Cena and Batista come around and stop the decline (Cena brings them up his first whole year), and yet you're blaming him?

>>2124196

This.

Wrestling stopped being mainstream when Austin and Rock left. and they made HHH "The guy" though no one really wanted to see him there.

>>2124262
Haitch certainly failed, proved by the fact that SD was beating Raw in late 2002 early 2003.

He wasn't the face of the company for over a decade though.

>>2124260
That's one more year than HHH ever brought up the ratings, 1 1/2 actually. The other half was Batista

>he was the heel, not his fault

NWO

>Turning away casuals
>Bad thing

>>2124260

>Moves the goalposts when proven wrong

You said Batista and Cena didn't stop the decline and the ratings didn't show it at all. You were wrong. How about you put on a trip so we can all ignore your stupidity?

>>2124270
He turned away all of the casuals that stuck around after the boom ended. Imagine you're an ex WCW fan and hear Goldberg is back, you watch and he wins the belt for a month or two then Gaytch takes it back. I would stop watching again

>>2124271
Let's add that Stone Cold Steve Austin started out as a heel gimmick, The Rock too.

And both gimmicks were kind of assholes too, even as faces.

The ''cool'' heel has always been a thing.

Again, let's switch disciplines. Would Conor be considered a face or a heel? He's an ass.

>>2124278
>You said Batista and Cena didn't stop the decline and the ratings didn't show it at all.

Your argument is still 1 year is more relevant than the trend of a decade.

Not worthy replying further.

>>2124282
That was Goldbergs fault though.

When he first signed for WWE, he had zero intentions of sticking around, he signed a 1 year contract only. How can he be champ for longer if he's leaving in 2-3 months?

He even mentions he came back at the time (just like now) for the kids only, not ''love for the business''.

>>2124287
>I got proven wrong so I'll stop replying

Triple H killed mainstream wrestling, no history revision can change that. Cena and Batista stopped the downward spiral, something HHH never did

Your first sentence is the Cena era turned casuals away, it was Triple H

>>2124287

Not him, but Cena was a breath of fresh-air as Dr. Thugonomics, people were already tired of HHH in late 2003. That's why there was such a huge pop for Benoit when he made him tap at mania.

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That's why they are pushing this guy now. It's time for the machine gun.

>>2124302
Well yes. Again look at 2003 Royal Rumble, Cena enters and gets a giga pop.
And it was before he had won anything relevant yet, he would win the US title from Big Show at Mania.

Cena rapper worked. Marine Cena however failed. And that was his gimmick (or similar variantions) for the downward trend.

>>2124229
The thing with MMA is that the stars all absolutely need the fighting skills and they need to be really good. Ability to draw/charisma is important to be a star but, unlike wrestling where you can cruise on it if the company protects you, in MMA you get into a real fight at the end and you need to win. If you get your shit pushed in, especially if it happens consistently, people are gonna stop caring because you'll just be a literal loser.

The best examples are Sage Northcutt and Paige Van Zant. Both were heavily pushed in 2016, afforded good opportunities and overall were draws for the company, but then they got their shit kicked in and now they both look like total goofs that the company's pushing because they're young, blonde and attractive, and that just generates backlash.

>>2124339
Though Vanzant and Northcutt are kind of an half-assed push a la Vince.

Both had the looks, not the typical Vince's look, but they are attractive.
One can't actually fight, the other is very green.
None of them have that much charisma.

Wrestling crowds are also much less forgiving now about having or lacking wrestling skills.

I'd say
Charisma and gimmick are what makes you a draw or not.

Wrestling (or fighting) skills are an early selection. If you can't do it at an acceptable level, you aren't given much of a chance.

Most of the WWE roster is stuck at that level. Most can wrestle, few to none have charisma and one of the reasons is the overly scripted WWE style. If you can't shoot, you can't show charisma.

Look at Raw, who's the most charismatic? Jericho and he's one of the few who's allowed to work without script, along with Cena and Haitch.

>>2124208
Bless you

>>2124208

>Unique look

Never seen this dude wrestle and I'm certainly not drawn to his unique look.

>>2124193
Ronda was never a big draw.

>>2124719
>implying

>>2124193
Benoit and Eddie Guerro era of vanilla midget is what started people to turn away from WWE

>>2124719


Rousey vs Holm 1.1 million
vs Correia 0.9 million
vs Nunes 1.1 million

She's not Bork or McGregor who topped 1.6 (the latter twice), but she's still a big raw.

>>2124719

Dummy

>>2124719
Honda is draw. All the top selling merch on UFC shop is her and Condor

>>2124649
He's like Mizdow but a foot shorter and does flips

>>2124193
>This also shows why Roman will never be a draw. Casual audience doesn't care about looks. Casual audience wants stories and charisma. He can't offer either.

Please head back to /woo/ and never come back

>>2124740
Ratings were declining before them and kept declining after them. Non-argument.

Vanilla midgets McGregor and Maywater are top notch draws in WWE competition.

This isn't the 80s anymore Vince, being simply a big guy doesn't make you draw a dime anymore.

>>2124743
She's Conor or Bork-tier for WMMA, which most people still kinda don't care about and which she basically put in the UFC in the first place.

>>2124753

>Comparing MMA draws to mandrama

>>2124753
>being simply a big guy doesn't make you draw a dime anymore

Yeah sure but for the past 6 months AJ and Owens have been the champs, and indie smarks like you love these guys, so why haven't the ratings gone up? If anything they've gotten even worse.

>>2124760
Raw is stable after 2 years of nonstop decline and SD is actually upwards.

>>2124768
>Raw is stable after 2 years of nonstop decline

Lol no it isn't. Ratings have gotten worse since Seth's reign of terror and SD went down again this week.

>>2124789
> this week

Trend is what counts

also 2.6 this week is still above the average of 2.1 it was getting before the draft

the trend remains upward

>Ratings have gotten worse since Seth's reign of terror

You said Owens.

Under Owens, so far, they are stable, though I suspect it's mostly because Goldberg's occasional appearences generate a spike up.

During the last 2 post wrestlemania seasons they saw major declines. Both Seth's and Roman's third run were bad ratings wise.

Road to Mania season is generally the part of the year with the highest so we'll see what he can do.

>>2124196
Literally this

>>2124740

I would argue that it was much more than that. The show started being selective in its pandering, instead of being a holistic show for all ages they went full soft-core porn. Vince booked himself in some really questionable storylines that involved him getting involved with women stephanie's age, bra and panties matches made soccer moms tell their children to turn it off, it became softcore porn for high school boys, and then they went full damage control in 2008 and decided to take all that stuff away which naturally pissed off the college age audience they were gunning for (probably 95% of this board) and became a cartoon show for 5 year old kids with simplistic storylines.

>>2124806
>Under Owens, so far, they are stable,

You are delusional beyond belief.

>Trend remains upward.

The trend went down significantly, in the past 2 years they've lost 1 million consistent weekly viewers and they've done nothing to regain that audience back, I know for a fact reading posts from smarks like you who said if they put the belt on someone that isn't Roman, ratings will shoot right back up yet the inverse is actually happen, ratings are so bad they had to beg Goldberg to come back. 2 years ago they had to get Sting to help out.

>>2124193
What's fun about that?

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Cena was popular at first as a "cool" white rapper but white kids like hip hop too much and Vince saw the merchandise sale so Super Cena was born. Casuals left for the frustration of lol Cena wins against all the odds and only the hardcore fans remained

>>2124827
>The trend went down significantly, in the past 2 years

>>2124789
>and SD went down again this week.

>>2124760
>Yeah sure but for the past 6 months AJ

3 posts, 3 times you changed the timeframe subject of the comparison.

Come back when you actually seek a serious discussion and not a constant changing of the subject because it doesn't prove you right. Not worthy discussing further until then.

>>2124884

Most people don't even realize this but the whole Cena thugonomics gimmick was based almost entirely on Eminem who was huge at that time.

>>2124193
Hey paul

>>2124196
this

>>2124884
Eh pretty much.
White rapper Cena was also during Eminem's peek years, which made Cena socially cool.

Marine Cena as I mentioned was a murder in terms of popularity for WWE.

>>2124860
Vince's obtuse business philosophy, when even in rival business it isn't big guys that draw.

It isn't even ''great wrestling'' nor ''great fights'' because many top fighters don't draw a dime.
It's simply charisma and gimmicks, regardless of looks.

>>2124887

>Reading comprehension

You went to such painstaking lengths to say that "big men don't draw" when the facts are that a "big man" hasn't been the champion for over 3 months in both brands and the ratings are still going down.

Then you said some nonsense about Owens stabilizing the ratings, which is just a flat out lie, ratings have steadily been going down.

You are lying just so you can talk down to Vince and Roman cause you're a biased /woo/ smark, you even type just like one, that can't face the facts that it's not that it's big men who are at fault, it's the fact that no one in this generation of wrestlers has any charisma or mainstream appeal to boot. They're all just CAWs, any indie darling that gets signed comes over and does their cool flips but then they become monotonous and boring cause that's all they had to offer, cause casuals don't really care if you can do a 450 back flip, they care if they can relate to.

tl;dr You have no idea what you're saying and should go back to /woo/

>>2124901

Marine Cena was Vince taking advantage of America being at war with Iraq/Afghanistan and patriotism and respect for soldiers was at an all time high. So he chose to give his top guy a marine gimmick...go figure.

>>2124909
fedoramen changed goalposts 3 times, got called out and threw a tantrum about smarks

rofl, another day another laugh at the expense of this low IQ pajeet

>>2124914

>fedoramen

Oh cool you're still here 1 year later still trying to force this.

Do you ever go out? Lol

>>2124911
Hmm okay, well under that logic, it kinda makes sense. However, the Iraq war turned the tables in terms of the popularity of US wars and Bush eventually ended up hated as fuck.
''Super Cena'' which was simply a variation of the marine gimmick remained.

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>>2124887
>3 posts, 3 times you changed the timeframe subject of the comparison.

It doesn't matter when it's true that ratings have been going down, if you want to look at it from 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, they've been going down and RAW has lost 1 million weekly consistent views since mid 2013.

>>2124918

Doesn't change the fact that people still loved and respected soldiers and Vince was capitalizing on that by having Cena walking around saluting everyone.

>>2124920
First half of 2014 Raw was doing good and the Raw after WM30 was a 10 year high.

>>2124927
Yeah that's why I said it makes sense, at least for a bit patriotism was through the roof.

Sneeky Vince.

>>2124946

Yes and that was 3 years ago. Time flies huh? In that timespan 1 million people have decided watching WWE isn't worth their time.

>>2124952
Thanks to Vince's awful booking of the individual run of the Shield members.

And the insane practice of overscripting everything.

Hey let's not allow people to cut their own promos and let's make them say things like sufferin' succotash. That'll work.

Nice one Vince.

I mean, let's look at the best promo cutters before this last 2 and a half years of nightmare:

Rock: cuts his own promo without oversight
Cena: same
Punk: same
Haitch: same
Jericho: same
Heyman for Lesnar: same, he breaks PG all the time and is one step from breaking kayfabe

Shield members: sufferin succotash, sparkle crotch, bean stalker

Vince approved. Great.

>>2124649

Respectfully, your individual apathy towards Omega means fuck all. He's mad popular and is very significant in putting contempory outlaw on the map and increasing its appeal. Ya gotta deal with it my man.

WWE focusing more on "good wrestling" than compelling storytelling and larger than life characters is whats driving casuals away.

Attitude Era was more focused on angles, segments etc. than wrestling itself and thats when the ratings were at all time high.

>>2127116
Lol, implying they aren't trying hard to create good angles.

The problems are that:
a) it's really hard to have a good angle and maintain PG
b) It is even harder when Vince wants everything to be overscripted.

He's killing the company because of his stubborness to control everything because ''it's a public company meow''

>>2124287
>Not worthy replying further

Anon BTFO'd so hard he's covering his ears going "lalalalalalalalalalala"

>>2124753
>This isn't the 80s anymore Vince

You know he's not here right?

>>2124889
>>2124901

Tbh Eminem peak years were in way early 2000s. That's when he was very infamous and his music was more vulgar and violent then during 2002 his music wound down after Eminem Show.

>>2124193
>mutton chops
Phils worst look

This is the most intelligent and well discussed thread I've seen on this board as of yet, and I didn't watch wrestling until about 2009, was that when Cena wins was in full swing or did it start dying down, because I dont remember it that well

>>2124909
this

>>2124909
BTFO

>>2124909
Imagine being this fucking wrong.

>le OTHER site boogeyman

>>2128624
Fun fact about that, I didn't know what /woo was before he mentioned and I had to google it. That's how off based his remark was. Evidence I was right to ignore his comments further.

>>2124240
kek OP BTFO

>>2124209
>from 4+ rating
>last time they averaged 4.0 was 2002 and they got a 4 or higher only once in the last four months
>during this time Eric bischoff literally handed Triple h the belt and raw was starting to become focused primarily on him

Really makes me think

>>2128981
He's somehow even more wrong than I imagined? kek