How good is Aikido if you're learning from a legitimate

>>1572340
You're going to learn bullshit regardless of whether theyre "legit" or not.

No it does not compare to bjj or judo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmRlquZrS8k

>>1572340
>How does it compare to the "industry standards" like BJJ and Judo?

Why does everyone worship these martial arts? They have some good sport-related techniques but it's no better than anything else. It's literally just shilled by a huge corporation (read: UFC) and that's why you hear it everywhere.

BJJ is slowly achieving karate-tier meme status in the martial arts world because of it.

>>1572365
>why does everyone worship these martial arts

Because they're actually effective. Theyre effective because they train under realistic conditions (read: opponents actually fighting back)

Go be butthurt that your kung fu doesnt work somewhere else.

>>1572340
if you want an organised martial art its not horrible but just getting in the gym and training your strength & cardio and sparring with a buddy will do more for your fighting skills than some weeaboo shit like this

>>1572357
bjj and judo are just as much bullshit, dont fall for the mma quackery dude

>>1572383
>bjj and judo are just as much bullshit, dont fall for the mma quackery dude

Here we go.

What do you train? Do you have a record?

>>1572379
I don't do kung fu, or any "martial art" for that matter.

BJJ is a meme and won't take you anywhere outside of a cage with a referee. It was created by Brazilian weeaboos whose whole family now shill their shitty subset of jiujitsu on national TV via UFC and you're falling for their nonsense.

>>1572383 pretty much said it best. If you want to get good at fighting, practice with a buddy or two and get in good shape. No fancy belt or canvas chink halloween costume is going to make you able to defend yourself any better.

>>1572397
>BJJ is a meme and won't take you anywhere outside of a cage with a referee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpgg7mwxoLU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dcUF-O96iI

ok

>>1572357
>first vid

Kek

Aikido guy got BULLIED

>>1572410
There are always exceptions. Using these as an example that BJJ is the absolute best way to defend yourself on the street is horse shit though.

Something is better than nothing, but if you try rolling around with a nigger on the ground and 2 of his buddies decide to kick you in the ribs, you're fucked.

>>1572416
>bjj is the absolute best way to defend yourself

Literally never said. Firearms are the absolute best way to defend yourself. Modern combat sports are, however, the best way to learn how to fight.

Bjj and judo are thrown out as standards because it is very difficult to get mcdojo bullshit with them because they have full sparring against an unwilling opponent. If your instructor is bullshit, you won't be throwing fools.
Other martial arts can be high level bullshit and no one will ever know because there is no full sparring against an unwilling opponent.

>>1572426
>Modern combat sports are, however, the best way to learn how to fight.

No, fighting is the best way to learn how to fight.

Combat sports help, but they have a major flaw; rules. You get used to the rules and the muscle memory of doing things by the book, when in a street fight anything could happen. Gracie academies can only truly train you to roll with other BJJ practitioners. That's not to say you can't use that stuff in a real fight, and I'm also not saying that it won't be successful, but it's too specific to a sport rather than general defense.

I agree about firearms though.

>>1572440
>the best way to learn how to fight is to fight

You'll do a lot of that in combat sports

>but they have a major flaw; rules

If you think I am somehow unable to kick someone in the dick because I kick-box, you're an idiot. In fact, kickboxers can probably kick people in the dick way more effectively than any two bit "street fighter" can.

It's better than judo and bjj imho

I've done all three and I liked aikido the best

>>1572499
No one who has done all three would have come to that conclusion

Two of the styles I did in the past were Judo and Krav Maga because I have a thing for stand up grappling techniques. I really enjoy the Aikido techniques I saw in Krav Maga. And I think they can be perfectly viable. But you cant apply them by dancing with your opponent. You need to force them on your opponent. Perhaps even combined with striking if someone is in a defensive stance, pulls his arms back or tenses his muscles.

When starting with Judo you quickly realize how hard it can be to unbalance a person when that person has learned since he was a kid how to stand stable on the two legs. It's a skill you have to acquire. The same thing also applies to arms. Arms are very easy to pull, twist and turn but they are also fast and easy to tighten. People are experts in using their arms quickly and in ways that dont unbalance them. And you cant just assume your opponent is moving forward uncontrollably. So to unbalance a person you need to force him.

So what do I think about Aikido based on my limited understandimg of it. It's fun for people who want to take it easy after years of martial art experience. Or want to learn something new. It's not really for beginners who dont have a realistic expectation of a fight because it's very focused on the techniques and less about real life application. A lot of teachers I've seen here locally so not feel the need to look beyond the smooth execution of the techniques. Perhaps its different elsewhere.

If you have a wrestling gym nearby you might want to so that instead because its more beginner friendly (as in it doesnt teach you bad habits) and probably more effective at most things Aikido aims to do.

But I havent done it. So its just talking from the sidelines. You could just join a dojo and find out what the fuss is about.

>>1572514
>stop liking what I don't like

autism

>>1572554
>thinking that having a proper understanding of how fighting works is autism

Autism

>>1572604
what makes you the grand authority on fighting?

>>1572604
A different understanding isn't necessarily the proper understanding

It's just silly to argue which fighting art is the best. It's all about how you use it and what sort of situation you're in.

>>1572440
>the best way to learn to warfight is to get thrown in a warzone!
>the best way to learn how to play football is to play football
>training is useless guys, you don't need that shit!

Fuck off.

>>1572664
>training is useless

Not what I implied at all, you fucking donut.

Training BJJ for street fighting is like going to a NASCAR academy to get good at racing rally cars. Yeah there are a lot of similar principles, but for the most part you're training in something that has rules and regulations different from what you'd find in a realistic scenario.

>>1572648
This idea that every fighting style is perfectly valid is silly. If your training is not based in reality, a situation that will be ideal for your skillset will never occur.

The easiest way to get rid of these unrealistic perceptions are to pressure test through sparring and competition. Aikido does not do this.

>>1572672
If you want to avoid confrontation you can do that without paying every month for a fat guy in a gi and magic pants to teach you how not to fight.

>>1572695
Sparring and competition in rules specific to a sport and not actual fighting won't make you a better fighter. Stop being a UFC shill fuckboy.

>>1572907
>Sparring and competition in rules specific to a sport and not actual fighting won't make you a better fighter. Stop being a UFC shill fuckboy.

Yes it will. A lot of it carries over. Obviously it won't make you the best fighter in the world, but it will make you a hell of a lot better at defending yourself than solely compliant drills.

>>1572397
>I don't do kung fu, or any "martial art" for that matter.
Oh good, clearly someone who has absolutely no fucking experience has figured things out.

>>1572925
Unless you count boxing and wrestling, which I've done for nearly 10 years.

>>1572941
>Ooops, someone pointed out my boast was retarded, better change my claim.

OK, anon, so which is it:
Did you waste your time for 10 years, or was learning two martial arts useful for fighting?

>>1572941
>10 years of martial arts experience
>still spouting nonsense
What is with the fag posters on this fucking board and making shit up when ever they feel threatened? I'd ask where you wrestled and if you ever were any good, but I'm 100% sure you'll just spout some shit

>>1572953
All I said was BJJ isn't all it's cracked up to be and you got butthurt and defensive.

BJJ works but it's not the best thing since sliced bread, and you gracie fags have a lot to learn if you think you can fully rely on only BJJ in a street fight.

>>1573048
>spouts a bunch of bullshit
>gets called on his bullshit
>hey guys pls no bully I didnt mean it a bloo bloo bloo

>>1573090
Tell me what I said was bullshit and I'll tell you why you're wrong

>>1573093
>bjj is karate tier meme
>I dont train martial arts
>oh wait yes I do
>the best way to train is to lift weights and beat the shit out of your gym buddies

Any of those sound familiar?

>>1572340
just learn like Sambo or kickboxing or something. aikido is bs, no way you can throw a guy like that just with the arm and the "le peace and harmony" part is crap

>>1573136
I personally wouldn't consider wrestling and boxing martial arts in the same sense that jiujitsu and judo are.

The last one is pretty much true though. The only way to get better is to train as you fight. You can learn all the BJJ in the world and while it may help in a fight to an extent, it is no substitute for practicing for fighting by simply fighting.

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>>1573189

>>1573189
>I personally dont consider

Thats super cool except that it literally doesnt matter

>the last one is true though

Which is why the best fighters are the bro douches at the gym and not professional mma fighters.

>>1573189

The last 30 - 40 minutes of any BJJ class are dedicated to live sparring. Live sparring is the closest thing to a real fight you are going to get. You are a colossal retard who has never trained. Fuck. Off.

>>1572440
>Combat sports help, but they have a major flaw; rules

You show me somebody practicing a martial art that you think has no rules and I'll give you a list of the rules he's following.

The bad part about it is they're going to be ridiculous rules like, "If you pretend to kick someone in the knee, he'll pretend you just crippled him." That's a far worse thing to put into your muscle memory than, "If you get somebody in a choke and he taps, let him go."

Seriously, traditional martial artists playing kung fu and krotty are worse than first graders playing cops & robbers. "I got you! That was a point! You're dead now!" "Nuh-uh, I blocked it!"

>>1572379
>Because they're actually effective.
I'm pretty sure it's just a bunch of band wagoning.

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>>1572925
>Oh good, clearly someone who has absolutely no fucking experience has figured things out.
>because he doesn't have experience his argument is invalid and false
I thought you were smarter than that.

>>1573421

you mean to tell me the gracie brand of jujitsu isn't being shilled by a multi million dollar corporation to rake in money from their 'approved' bjj academies?

you dont say!

>>1573444
>>1573421
They don't have to shill, you fucking non-trainers.

BJJ does the talking for itself. It is literally the single best thing you can learn for self defense, otherwise it wouldn't be so popular in UFC.

Now fuck off.

>>1573243
I wouldn't call rolling around on cushy mats complete live sparring. Brazilian jujutsu has a lot going for it. It's easy to get into, easy to train without many serious injuries, and is practical since many fights do end up on the ground and having some knowledge about ground fighting is integral to survival.

That being said, what will you do if you get jumped by several guys? What about weapons? What if the floors are concrete? Wood?

There are always drawbacks to every fighting art that's why you have to compliment one with another.

As far as aikido goes, it seriously depends. There's a dojo in Japan that trains 7 days a week like crazy in aikido and they often have to practice through injuries. There is also the weak aikido that does no randori, doesn't practice tai sabaki, doesn't cover ground work or weapons, or does preliminary bodywork training to toughen up the forearms and shins.

I mean o-sensei was amazing and studied under a stud of daito-ryu aikijujutsu, so the internal elements he incorporated in his art came from being well honed in a more effective art and perhaps caused aikido to be watered down. But aikido isn't completely defanged. It's just a rare art to fight.

Depends on what you find useful. I've worked security for 5 years now at various establishments. When doing bouncer gigs, I've found Aikido more useful than any other art the few times I've had to break up brawls and "help" rowdy patrons out of the bar, all while doing minimal damage to them and the surroundings to avoid liability issues.

Then again, from what I've seen too often, a lot of people now learn martial arts because they're looking to instigate fights and want to hurt people, which is just sick. I'm kind of glad wrestling has taken over this board. Don't get into martial arts just because you want to fuck people up. Even if the art you learn isn't as practical to doing that, you'll learn a lot more valuable lessons in a traditional dojo with a legitimate instructor, things that you can apply in everyday life.

>>1573421
Well, how about you get in the ring and proving it.

>>1573434
Smart enough to recognize a fallacy fallacy.

And that my post was literally "not an argument." You can't have a fallacy if you don't have an argument.

>>1573458
You're a fucking stupid idiot with your moving goal posts.

Just face it, aikido is for stupid fat fuck Steven Seagall wannabes and can absolutely in no way whatsoever compare to BJJ or Judo. Case fucking closed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmRlquZrS8k

I'm not sure how effective it is, but as far as looks go, it's the most attractive martial art IMHO.

Second place is tied between Tae Kwon Do and Tai Chi.

>>1573458
>>1573458
Why is it whenever we have these thread some fat fuck bouncer likes to come on and pretend he's better than fighters that train legitimate fighting arts?

Bouncers don't fucking fight, they gang up on people and throw them out. Your opinion means nothing to me.

>>1573506
>>1573462

>>1573495
I fucking hate that wrasse fags taking over this board has given room for the TMA and RBSD fags to come back and pretend their form of training is effective.

We've got to call all of you retards all over again.

>>1573464
>Well, how about you get in the ring and proving it.
Prove what? I'm not saying that BJJ isn't effective at least some of the time, I'm just saying that it being effective contribute less than bandwagoning.

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>>1573520
How dare I have an opinion!

Grr, I can't believe someone on the internet just expressed a view with which you disagree!

>>1573530
Thinking it's a good idea to build a house out of straw is an opinion too, doesn't make you less of a fucking idiot for believing it.

>>1573464

>smart enough to recognize a fallacy fallacy
Apparently not.

>And that my post was literally "not an argument."
I never said it was an argument.

>if you don't have an argument
You were obviously implying he was wrong, while at the same time saying he has no experience.

>>1573540
What does that have to do with me thinking a form of art looks pretty?

>>1573543
>Apparently not.
Sure it is. Just because an argument is stated as a fallacy, doesn't mean it's incorrect.

>I never said it was an argument.
Well then it's not a fallacy.

>You were obviously implying he was wrong, while at the same time saying he has no experience.
An implication is not an argument. The claim that he has no experience is his.

>>1573544
A Martial art is not art in the same way painting is an art. It's an art in the sense that it is a skill. A method of fighting. If your art fails at teaching people to fight, it's a shit art.

If you want to indulge yourself in ethnic dancing that's fine, but its not a martial art.

>>1573506
LOL you're so angry right now you can't even reply to the correct post. My opinion was directed to OP, not you. Don't take everything so personal.

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>>1573578
>martial art isn't art

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>>1573578
>A Martial art is not art in the same way painting is an art.

Yes it is.

BJJ and Judo are martial sports, not martial arts. Aikido, tai chi, and kung fu are arts. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Olympic Judo, and Muay Thai are sports.

>>1573585
it's not art, it's a skill. It has an objective end, not an aesthetic one.

This kind of shit is why I prefer the term combat sport to martial art.

>>1573578
Again, how does this mean I can't think fluid locks and throws look more aesthetically pleasing than two sweaty wogs rolling around in the missionary position?

>>1573597
Then why are they called martial "arts" and not martial "skills"?

Christians: 1
Blowjob jutsu: 0

>>1573599
Nothing stopping you from thinking that but that's not a martial art. It's not about fighting.

Have fun with your ethnic dance.

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>>1573606
>Aikido is not a martial art

>>1573602
>>1573585
>>1573596
>Art

>4.
>a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice.
"the art of conversation"
synonyms: skill, craft, technique, knack, facility, ability, know-how

Learn fucking english

>>1573597
>it doesn't take skill to achieve an aesthetic end

Sketching is like Boxing and Taekwondo. Rock sculpting is kind of like BJJ.
You practice technique, you practice application of technique, and you do the real thing under stresses.
You practice sketching, you get good at sketching. Maybe you like the abstract part of sketching more than the realism part, kind of like how some people like the footwork aspect part of Boxing better than the head movement aspect.

Visual arts are just like martial arts.

>>1573622
No they're not. What is aesthetically appealing is a matter of personal opinion. Whether or not you got knocked the fuck out is not.

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>>1573618
Shouldn't I be learning Brazilian instead of English if I really wanna learn how to fight?

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>>1573629
>Whether or not you got knocked the fuck out is not.

BJJ and Judo have no striking though. The end game is to make your partner lightly pat you on the inside of the thigh while you prove your dominance.

>>1573597
>I prefer the term combat sport

Perfectly fine term for the hodgepodge of techniques most useful in an MMA cage. Sorry, but you don't get to decide what is and isn't a martial art.

>>1573639
Or risk a broken limb/being choked unconcious.

But hey, if you get off to it too Id just call that a bonus.

>>1573645
And no amount of mental gymnastics will make your ethnic dance an effective form of fighting. Sorry to inform you.

>>1573653
You're entitled to that opinion. Still don't get to decide what is and isn't a martial art.

>>1573653
>hurr durr ethnic dance ethnic dance

Repeating it over and over won't make it sound any less retarded.

BJJ descended directly from an "ethnic dance" called jujutsu.

>>1573662
Jujutsu styles back I'm the day included randori. It was also used by a whole societal class of warriors to kill eachother on the regular. Not really comparable to aikido doing flowery forms in an air conditioned dojo.

>>1573673
Same shit, different toilet.

You can't make a claim then reverse it to accommodate something you like. That's hypocritical in nature.

>>1573678
Except thats not what I'm doing? You understand what randori is right?

Oh who am I kidding, of course you dont.

>>1573682
Yes. It exists in aikido as well. You're talking in circles here and making little to no sense. All you're doing is showing off your ignorance towards aikido and the fact that UFC/Gracie shills have had their way with you.

>>1573682

not him but i just googled it and got

>Randori (乱取り) is used by Aikido, Judo, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu dojos outside Japan. In Japan, this form of practice is called taninzu-gake (多人数掛け), which literally means multiple attackers.

in the first result

try harder kiddo

>>1573687
>aikido
>actually sparring

Just stop man. 90% of the aikido dojos out there have no form of sparring or competition. I am aware of exactly one style of aikido that actually spars and it looks like really bad judo.

Aikido's focus is on flowery aesthetic forms and not on efficient fighting techniques. Its an ethnic dance, not a martial art.

>>1573698
randori means free practice. That multiple attack drill aikido does is entirely compliant, not real sparring.

>>1573705
>>1573699

says the guy who has never practiced aikido let alone practiced with an aikidoka

Uhm, yeah I think I'd rather do the martial arts that the people in mma do where they actually punch and kick each other in the head and render each other unconscious..


aside from guns and knives, those people seem to have found what works the best (eye pokes included, jon jones..)

>>1573699
Except it is a martial art.

>>1573707
There is an aikido class the hour before my judo club practices. I have both practiced aikido and against aikido practioners.

I fondly remember sparring with an aikido black belt while I was three months into my judo training and pushing his shit in.

so nice try

>>1573716
why the fuck does your judo club have aikido? just to fuck with them? lmao...

seriously that sounds really odd...

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>>1573716
You are apparently an expert in aikido yet you didn't even know randori existed in the practice.

Laughable. Tell more lies, go on.

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>>1573716
>There is an aikido class the hour before my judo club practices

How convenient

Post a link to your dojo. I want to see their schedule.

>>1573719
They help pay rent. We also have a ryukyu kempo class danzan-ryu jujutsu class on different days.

The ryukyu kempo is your basic bitch strip mall karate with the added benefit of pressure point nonsense.

>>1573722
Believe what you want

>>1573728
k

http://www.kintorajudo.com/

>>1573716
>I fondly remember sparring with an aikido black belt while I was three months into my judo training and pushing his shit in.

got any vids? sounds hilarious

>>1573740
No I dont, unfortunately. I didnt know he was an aikido black belt until the next class, and even if I had I didnt realize how easy it would be at the time.

>>1573732
>http://www.kintorajudo.com/

Wadokai is literally the Aikido equivalent to Ed Parker kenpo BS. If it's not Aikikai, USAF, Yoshinkan, etc. then it isn't legitimate aikido, and all this has shown me is that your dojo is shit.

>>1573770
>no true scotsman

I dont care if its o-sensei's aikido class from beyond the fucking grave. If your focus is on low precentage wristlocks, flowery movements and no sparring you're not learning how to fight effectively.

>>1573779
>If your focus is on low precentage wristlocks

Confirmed for knowing jack shit about aikido. Congrats on being an expert on the subject though.

>>1573785
That's fine. Ill be satisfied enough with actually knowing how to fight.

>>1573732
>http://www.kintorajudo.com/

So basically you're on the mat 4 hours a week at the most?

I don't get people who only desire to learn one martial art when there's more available to you at the same school.

why is everyone arguing jujutsu vs aikido?

the two actually have lots in common and learning both will leave you with lots of different techniques to use in self defense

check out some of these ground techniques used in aikido

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwGVbAzQUeo

>>1573874
>implying I only learn one martial art

>>1573875
Considering they have the same parenthood that's not surprising. My main beef with aikido isn't it's techniques it's the training method and it's unrealistic perception of fighting.

>>1573903
What else do you study?

>>1573907
Kickboxing at a separate location. Kintora doesn't offer any good striking classes.

>>1573914
Oh, that's not a martial art but okay.

>>1573924
lol, alright buddy

>>1573903
>My main beef with aikido isn't it's techniques it's the training method and it's unrealistic perception of fighting.

it's sad but true for most schools. i've trained aikido for 6 years now and our instructors don't want us to do resistance with partners because it is so easy to get seriously injured for the rest of your life. they treat it more like a combat philosophy than a form of self defense and i think that's wrong and if you pay for a class like that you will not get your money's worth.

i have actually kotegaeshi'd someone in a fight and broke their wrist but that is also a technique commonly used in a few different other martial arts including jujitsu. it is still fundamental aikido however and one of the first things you will learn under any instructor worth their salt.

long story short i think aikido can definitely supplement many other different styles. i just recently began jujitsu classes about 6 months ago and find myself as a white belt going back to several different kubishime and uke nagashi techniques from top control. it is a lot of fun and when you truly start to understand the body movements of aikido it can help a lot, especially when you supplement another art with it.

>>1573927
Combat sport as you'd put it. Still highly effective if that's all that's available to you, but generally watered down without any of the art.

>>1573934
>this nigga gets it

It's amazing what a realistic mindset and active training can do

>>1573936
See >>1573618

The art in martial art means skill. Martial mean military or combat. Martial arts are combative skills. Ant aesthetic or philosophy is unnecessary.

>>1573903
>My main beef with aikido isn't it's techniques it's the training method and it's unrealistic perception of fighting.

This is a something fundamental that too many people do not understand. A martial art is not just a catalog of techniques, but rather the sum of its techniques, ideas, and pedagogy.

>>1573937
lol when you get to shodan/black belt level in aikido you begin to question and test everything. for what its worth, the joint locks and manipulations can help out a lot but you cannot put 100% stock in them unless the person youre fighting is totally green and doesnt know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to fighting

i feel more well rounded as a martial artist with what little bjj grappling i have learned, and i will hopefully have the opportunity to learn some wrestling and kickboxing in the near future to add to it

no matter what color belt is holding up my pants im going to continue to learn for the rest of my life and i think everyone else should too.

>>1573941
Kata is the art. Tournaments traditionally have two categories: fighting and forms. Even Judo has kata. Just because you may have no interest in understanding the art aspect of martial arts doesn't mean it's not there, or even that your priorities are wrong. For some people martial arts are more than just a collection of useful self-defense techniques. The more you train, there's a good chance you might even change that opinion.

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The quality of instruction, coaching and general education in aikido is so low sadly, there might be some ok tech and concept but being in the grappling scene for awhile a lot of con men selling snake oil has created a huge generation of people who can barely teach or demo anything.

Hate sounding cynical but the best use of aikido have been outside the style.

Reason is other grappling styles have huge HUGE advantage in superior teaching and coaching letting athletes and students properly train and apply the techniques

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>>1573967

>>1573960
I have no interest because your spewing bullshit. Kata is means of learning forms, which are applied in combat. All of it goes back to improving your combative skill.

Judo as a martial art is a poor example too considering Kata has been replaced by and large by modern drills and conditioning. Why? Because the "art" or aesthetic of kata doesn't matter. Kano's whole philosophy on life and fighting was about efficiency. There are more efficient ways to train than kata.

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>>1573971
this is also a judo throw a variant of tani otoshi

seen in similar fashion here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ak-cgbwtIA

start at 0:55 to 103

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>>1573973
every guest aikidoka ive seen come to the judo dojo, super nice people not the best in explaining or teaching and you kind of have to smile and nod when they spout some crazy superioty comeplx stuff like how aikido only has standing armlocks. Even though most brown belts in judo, giving them like maybe a month of drilling to modify their grip for their uchi mata, are way more devastating and accurate standing arm bar players then any advance aikido belt, they know the timing and foot work to land the throw,

Again because of the poor state of teaching in modern aikido most black belts havent developed any strong sense of timing, foot work, reflexes to open up their offensive set.

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>>1573974

>>1573972
It's not bullshit. Kata was traditionally developed from what worked in combat, so yes it's definitely combat related (everything in the martial arts is in some way or another). If taught correctly, there's multiple levels of understanding (bunkai) within each form. Effectively demonstrating the form while showing your understanding of the bunkai is the art aspect.

There isn't an equivalent to training in kata. Basically, it's a real fight against an imaginary opponent, and you can make it as real as you want. Sparring has a totally different effect, if that's what you have in mind. Sparring helps you refine techniques and learn what works and what doesn't, but as far as mental preparation and building a warrior attitude, it doesn't compare.

>>1573992
You're right. There isn't an equivalent. But there are superior methods, which is why most clubs don't do kata outside of black belt tests and kata tournaments (if you're into that sort of thing)

>Basically, it's a real fight against an imaginary opponent
>kata builds warrior spirit more than actual fucking fighting apparently

There's no saving you.

>>1574004
There aren't superior methods. If a school ("club") isn't teaching them, it's because it's not a school. It's a business catering to what its customers want.

>There's no saving you.

The feeling's mutual, unfortunately. Sparring is great for testing out techniques, getting down timing and distancing, and generally working with a variety of opponents, but it has no effect on your attitude in that split second decision of jumping in a real fight. You seem pretty set in your opinions, though, so no point in wasting any more time here.

>>1574063
Don't let the door hit you on the way out, dancer.

>>1574075
Thanks. Best wishes for your mall mcdojo.

Damn where are the aikido guys who can argue against the whole dancing stereotype?

>>1574830
they can't say anything because it's a "stereotype" that is wholly accurate

>>1574095
If learning how to actually fight makes somewhere a mcdojo now then I guess I go to a mcdojo too.

>>1572340
Only a few aikido instructors I would train with. I would never make it my main art. It would be interesting to train with some of the big names though.

>>1575025
You're learning partner breakdancing.

>>1573972
The lack of kata in judo has little to do with Kano. He and almost all his direct students practiced kata quite seriously.

aikido in fact was not kata based. Ueshiba never described what he taught as kata, Sokaku, his teacher didn't teach daito ryu in kata either. his students turned his improvisations into kata which is why every school of daito ryu has a different list of kata.

>>1575893
>The lack of kata in judo has little to do with Kano. He and almost all his direct students practiced kata quite seriously.

OK, but im not debating that point. What im saying is that modern judoka dont practice kata nearly as much because more efficient ways of training were developed.

>>1575904
uchikomi was certainly known to Kano,

They certainly more efficient for randori and shiai probably even for many types of real world violence. But for the complete physical and martial and physical education Kano had in mind, I would say they are essential.

>>1575911
And I would say you're wrong. Uchikomi and conditioning drills are in my experience (and everyone elses) much more physically demanding than kata. The greatest mental lessons of judo (humility, patience, emotional control) are again in my experience much more relevant to randori. I still practice kata on occasion in class but I see no magic in it. Its rehearsed practice of form and I see no reason to believe there is anything to be gained in kata that can't be gained through other forms of training.

>>1575924
>Its rehearsed practice of form and I see no reason to believe there is anything to be gained in kata that can't be gained through other forms of training.

>rehearsed practice of form

Well if that is all it is then by all means uchikomi is better. train with a decent teacher of koryu jujutsu or kenjutsu and you might find they treat kata a little differently.

>>1576066
If judo has already taught me how to fight better than an antiquated system what benefit would I have in training it?

There is nothing magic about kata. Stop drinking the kool-aide.

>>1576100
>>1576100
>There is nothing magic about kata.

I dont think suggesting something works as a teaching method makes it a form of magic.

>what benefit would I have in training it?

https://books.google.com/books?id=G0YMBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT111&lpg=PT111&dq=rory+miller+on+kata&source=bl&ots=UWc2UmFqn1&sig=32IGo7fiP66l238PiBrovr9iOjE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9--vp7J7LAhVKQSYKHbdNBwwQ6AEISTAH#v=onepage&q=rory%20miller%20on%20kata&f=false


This explains it better than I can.

>>1576114
>roy miller

Isnt this the same fag who cited a study on soldiers not being willing to kill despite the fact that it had debunked a million and a half times over?

Isnt this the same roy miller who thinks the best way to train is slow motion compliant drill?

lol, no thanks.

>>1576130
He actually praises judo quite a bit.

You asked I gave you an answer, if you dont even want to address the points we have nothing to talk about

>>1576143
Despite my contempt for its source, I read your link anyways. From what I can gather from my skim through he thinks solo kata is good because its about teaching all of your body to react in the proper way for a technique. All fine and dandy but that does not require kata as a means of instruction. From what I can gather through my skim through he thinks two person kata is great because it teaches people to remain calm and to react without the hesistation most people have to doing violence on their fellow man. Again, all fine and dandy, but do you know what REALLY forces you to remain calm and react appropriately to a threat? Sparring.

Again, theres no magic or anything special to kata. Its an antiquated way of teaching technique, nothing more.

>>1576218
A rather poor summery of his discussion of two man kata. He talked about several things from using weapons with actual intent, to dealing with the stress of having such a weapon swung at you, even dealing with tachypsychia.

I am not arguing that sparring (assuming its a sound system of starring unlike say point sparring in karate) is bad. Its very good. judo and bjj are two of the best grappling arts around. Not because they have eliminated kata, but because they maintain a high level of stress testing and athletic conditioning. And they have restricted themselves to a subset highly efficient techniques for unarmed combat.

>Again, theres no magic or anything special to kata

You keep using the word magic as if I am making such a claim. I am not claiming kata is anymore magic than your claiming that sparring is.

> Its an antiquated way of teaching technique, nothing more.

Wrong. I would agree than learning to fight with swords and bo staffs is largely antiquated. If you have no interest in such things there would not be much reason to train in most of the old schools

but not the teaching method. The teaching method itself it very efficient when done in the proper matter.

>>1576266
If it was efficient there would be guys coming from martial arts with a strong focus on kata or forms dominating the ufc. This is not the case.

>>1576266
>You keep using the word magic as if I am making such a claim. I am not claiming kata is anymore magic than your claiming that sparring is.

The difference here is rhat I can explain in very clear and simple terms why actively fighting through sparring or competition is an essential part of becoming a good fighter. As of right now you can not do the same for kata.

I keep an open mind, but I need a little better than "you have to go and train a completely separate martial art to get why kata is super special and has benefits that no other training style does"

>>1576289
What good would an art dedicated to fighting with weapons be in the UFC?

If we are talking about unarmed stuff I would agree the number of traditional jujutsu groups that can hold their own with judo/bjj is incredibly small, since their preserving a set of techniques optimized for edo Japan rather than a modern competitive environment. Indeed I would be leery of any jujutsu group that did not do some sort of freestyle, at least if it came to learning to fight and not just preserving knowledge. Most of the good guys in that area have involvement with judo, bjj or another modern grappling discipline

>>1576319
And why do you think that is? Maybe its because judo, bjj and other modern combat sports are better at producing good fighters.

>inb4 but there's 1 in a million good classical Jujutsu dojos that can hold their own

I'll believe it when I see it man, and I ain't seeing it.

>>1576314
I think I explain it pretty well. Its a method that reconditions your basic movement patterns under stress to match the circumstances the Kata were designed for.

I think most people who do them are dilettantes who are not interested in putting in the time and element of danger necessary to get value out of them.

> but I need a little better than "you have to go and train a completely separate martial art to get why kata is super special and has benefits that no other training style does"

I think you have to do good sparring like judo or bjj to fully appreciate it, same with kata.

>>1576332
I know people who do both, so I'll take their word for it. In fact I know a few one of which is such a good fighter I will take his word well over someone on the internet. Thats not including my own dabbling in judo.

Ive certainly seen enough kenjutsu to see its value vis a vis other sword arts that are available

>>1576337
>Its a method that reconditions your basic movement patterns under stress to match the circumstances the Kata were designed for.

And how exactly is that different from drilling a specific movement or combination of movements?

You can see that aikido is bullshit by reading this thread, the guys who support aikido criticize mma and jiu jitsu/judo for not being realistic enough? You can tell that they have been brainwashed by their sensei into believing that they are dangerous street-ready killing machines a la Seagal.

>>1576348
I won't take their word for it Unless I see it happen or have some sort of video evidence of it happening. I don't have that kind of faith in traditional martial arts.

>>1576332
>And why do you think that is?

Largely because after the standardization of Judo rules in japan it became the national standard, and schools interested in competition started participating in judo. Also judo's curriculum is far better suited for one on one sports sparring, or even no holds bar matches than most of the styles that came before it. Kano was no idiot, he took highly effective stuff from a number of schools and turned it into a single unified system, and created a rule set that directly complimented it

well tomiki/shodokan aikido looks much more usefull then most other aikido forms - mostly because they spar and it's creator was also a judo black belt who created the kodokans self defence curriculum

besides that - aikido will teach you some good ukemi that will be usefull when you'll finally decide to do judo

also- I belive I saw a video of an aikidoka wristlocking a bjj blackbelt when he tried to grab his lapel - of course it helped that the aikidoka was also a bjj blackbelt himself and theye were competing in a bjj tournament

>>1576354
Kata is a form of drilling. a rather elaborate multilayered form at that.

>>1576373
So again, there's nothing special about Kara that can't be achieved through modern training drills.

Glad we finally cleared that up.

>>1576380
That depends on the drill and how its done.

But suffice to say whatever art your dong you'll have to do alot of drilling before you will be any good at it, and that goes for judo and bjj too

>>1576380
That's a pretty steep assumption. Kata's use depends on the practitioner obviously. To say that it's useless would assume that every fighter in the world that practices kata is wasting their time and that is also a steep assumption.

Rather than assume kata is useless, knowing the proper application of kata movements is more important. Kata helps to keep a physical log of techniques without demonstrating them in front of people.

>>1576406
>to assume kata is useless

Literally never said that. I said kata is antiquated and there's nothing special that you can learn in kata you can't learn through modern teaching methods.

Aikido is cool, would like to learn it someday. Not sure what all the hate is about.

t. BJJ practitioner

>>1576436
See >>1572357

>>1576451
So I should completely disregard an entire system just because some dickheads on youtube?

That's close-minded dude. Check out the posts from the other BJJ guy ITT saying it melds well with BJJ. I'd like to add some of their joint locks to my arsenal.

>>1576459
The hate is because they don't train realistically. Yeah you might learn a couple wrist locks but unless you are already a proficent grappler you'll get your shit pushed in every time.

>>1576451
>>1576470
>staying in a thread for two days to crown yourself the king of internet grappling

>>1576470
Some do, some don't. There are plenty of shit jiu-jitsu gyms. It's all about the instructor and ultimately what you make of the art/sport itself.

>>1576424
Not really antiquated. I think if someone really wanted to they could set up a bjj/judo like art with something akin to traditional two man kata as a base.

The only question would be why do that when judo and bjj already have that market pretty well taken care of.

Same thing with grappling with ancient weapons. Why try to reinvent the wheel using modern methods when there are already styles available that have all the information and the cultural context in which that stuff was actually used.

>>1576497
You can say "well they could" all you want. Ill believe it when I see it.

>>1576483
Show me a video of an aikido student winning a fight against someone who trains a combat sport like judo or boxing.

>>1576515
Show me a video of you being a heterosexual

Seriously the shit flinging is so childish. There are good techniques in Aikido that can be applied to BJJ.

>>1576527
A martial art is a lot more than a few good technoques. If the majority is backwards ass stupid I don't think it's worth the mat time.

>>1576535
the art is only as good as the practitioner using it

>>1576621
the thing is there are so many bad practitioners in aikido and they rank up quickly to become horrible teachers making the style even more obtuse and unusuable.

There are no stress test or benchmarking that sniff or snuff out poor quality rather its all self congratulational or so much insulation to criticism they a majority make up excuses why they are to deadly, etc.

>>1576621
As one of the"traditonalists" in this thread I actually disagree with this. There is an indiviutal element to these arts yes, at the same time some arts are absolutely better designed when it comes to fighting.

One of the flaws of the daito ryu model which Ueshiba, the founder of aikido followed. Is it expected the student to absorb what his teacher was doing almost through osmosis. This requires an almost insane level of dedication, especially if the teacher does not clearly outline what he is doing and what he expects of the student

>>1576621
Ok, but there are training methods demonstrably more effective than others.

Style becomes irrelevant only between practioner of arts that trains realistically and for that reason produce quality fighters consistantly.

Bruce Lee caused this entire snowball effect ironically.