Asian Sword Arts General (Bo and Jo Edition)

>>1521710
Shinto muso ryu jojutsu featuring Kaminoda and Draeger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtagAN-Wtz8

Shinto muso ryu is notable for its use by the Japanese riot police in the twentieth century, and for its founders duels with Musashi

>>1526979
And the classic jo demonstration of the late 1940's, early 1950's for the japanese police, with Mel Bruno (judo, combatives) and non other than Shimizu Takaji.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXE7orsV6s

It might not be the bestest version of this footage that I've seen, but here it is.

And here's SMR's kenjutsu, with the same fellows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOcxTM7HREM

It may feels stupid, but it's just crazy cool to have old footage of such people who arguably, where tremendous exponent of the old styles and still had a resolute foot in moder Japan. Having footage of Shimizu Takaji, Nakayama Hakudo, Sasaburo Takano, feels like legend to me... and here they are on film.
This one in that regard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2ZRpl9WoPQ

>>1526979
Another of Draeger, bojutsu of TSKSR, with a guy I think I recognize from the old documentary of the BBC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3F6zEvoHFU

>>1526979
Is this the only school that focuses so much on jojutsu? I know there are others, but they seem a bit more limited.

>>1527897
Pretty much. The jo is a fairly late development weapon and it isn't that popular in the various old traditions (compared to others that is). SMR is pretty much the only style that focus on the jo, any other do it as a secondary weapon, in the training. Styles that don't focus on the sword aren't even a lot to begin with.

Then again, SMR is a very large tradition, and thanks to some of their headmasters, it's a fairly widely distributed style (compared to other, once more).

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>>1528005
There are many styles that do the jo or hanbo which is a similar length. shinto muso ryu and owari tenshin ryu might be the only arts that focus on it as their main weapon.

>>1527897
>>1528005
Suio ryu has a pretty extensive jo component (some 40 kata in different levels against sword and sets for jo vs. jo, jo vs. knife and tanjo). It's the second biggest part of the curriculum after iai and important, but again not the main focus as in SMR.

>>1521710
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO_Kp6zRBXI

kashima shin ryu video including jo. Instead of using it like a short bo they seem to use it more like a sword.

>>1521710

Niten ichi ryu bojutsu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P19c6usQs_Y

>>1528364
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j29_b1GIXU

Suio ryu jojutsu

>>1530771
Thanks for posting all of these anons. I got the chance to learn Kashima for a year while at college. Wonderful art.

>>1532351
Under Karl Friday? or Bodiford?

>>1532412
Bodiford.

>>1532299

Same guy doing shinto muso ryu, I believe he was a student of Kaminoda, and one of the few Ive seen who really does the art justice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv8icGROwJE

>>1521710
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47fB13DfvSo


Kukishin ryu bojutsu,

Anyone ever seen or heard of this style. Ive never seen or heard of it before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo0CjQt7FCs

鞍馬流

anba ryu?

>>1537555
Ok if my translation is right its kurama ryu. Should have looked up the kanji before posting

>>1537558
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9E%8D%E9%A6%AC%E6%B5%81

you're right, kurama ryu

>>1538931
according to Dr. Halls encyclopedia they have been heavily influenced by police kendo and martial arts

>>1521710
What is /asp/'s opinion on weeaboo shinai street fights?

My friends and I love going out behind the card shop and mixing it up. Some of us study from Kendo books.

>>1540663
Why should people care or have an opinions on people whacking each other with sticks really ?
I mean, it's just shinai, it's not like you're going to harm yourselves really hard anyway.

Just, common advices, don't get deluded on what you are doing, careful with thrusts and remember you can't learn everything from books.

>>1540663
Not very high. You should know that shinai an be dangerous if thrusted

>>1540663
just make sure that you only slap each other instead of stabbing yourself to death and have fun I guess

>>1528364
>>1532299
Jo vs jo is something I've rarely seen in koryu, is there a vid of that anywhere? What's the reasoning behind such techniques?

>>1541508
You can (somehow) see some jo vs jo of Takenouchi-ryu here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf6DOGrones

In koryu, usually ("usually") it's the advanced techniques that are "weapon against itself", while the basic techniques will be "weapon against the sword" (if the focus of the school is the sword obviously). I guess it's because jo vs sword is more likely of an encounter than jo vs jo, but then the second allows to develop another, perhaps a deeper comprehension of the weapon, while facing itself. Since those forms are found in the advanced kata, they are less likely to be shown.

A parallel is for instance, in TSKSR, the basic omoto no bo kata are "bo vs tachi", but the advanced gogyo no bo kata feature "bo vs bo".

>>1541661
>, but the advanced gogyo no bo kata feature "bo vs bo".

I've never heard that before. are those still extant in the mainline?

I thought the only thing they had like that was some spear vs spear which is only practiced by the noda branch

>>1541824
Oh I think most if no all branches are doing the gogyo no bo. Just like other advanced techniques, they are rarely demonstrated in public that is all (just like the other gogyo and gokui - though you can find some here and there).
TSKSR's bojutsu is 6 omote no bo and 6 gogyo no bo.
I don't about much about the advanced naginata kata (that's an understatement) but I think they are against the tachi though.

>>1541913
Thats interesting, I would have thought I would have read about those somewhere, maybe I just missed it. Either way its a powerful style.

>>1541913
>>1542001
Since I've mentioned them, here are videos demonstrating three gokui no iai (two in both but one seems to be in both)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hqYwZgNbDs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EvjslbRTaA

This demonstration in front of the emperor shows one gokui shichijo no tachi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiqcmntUi-8

And apparently, those guys are showing the first (gedan gamae no bo) and last (tatezue gamae no bo) kata of the gogyo no bo; funny to end the exchange both in kasa hazushi !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBCwJcMGfUY

TSKSR is really a treat to watch.

>>1542063
>TSKSR is really a treat to watch.

When done well yes. when done poorly it can look pretty lifeless in ineffective.


Thanks for the last vid, very interesting.

>>1542089
It really can. The long fast-paced flashy kata easily devolve into performances done for the sake of looking cool and different from other styles.

A friend once commented after an TSKSR enbu that he'd "never seen two people doing solo kata paired". He meant that they seemed to be just going through the movements, regardless of what the other guy was doing. And they were doing the movements themselves well, with speed and power and obviously had practiced a lot.

When the top level guys do it, every movement is done with intent (as in any koryu). Big difference.

>>1543946
Speaking generally, in koryu a high level license is not a gurentee of being great, lots of people with those for political reasons or because they put the time in.

but it is true katori shinto ryu has produced some amazing swordsmen this last century.

>A friend once commented after an TSKSR enbu that he'd "never seen two people doing solo kata paired"

I like this

>>1521710
More bo forms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G2D25mOH_M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4kKRf-lF7Q
Don't know much about this or their lineage but hey, it's funky.

>>1545749
Interesting, their forms remind me with KSR, in that they seen to be several different waza put together in a long chain. They also seemed to be doing some jujutsu in the background.

According to Dr. Hall's encyclopedia, Ishiguro ryu is an alternate name for tenshin shinyo ryu Ishiguro ha, but ive never heard of tenshin shinyo ryu doing bojutsu

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>>1532351
Here is a new video of kashima shin ryu showing batto, kenjutsu, jujutsu and naginata

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7AS52LLmaA

and their spear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY2V_akREKw

>>1546088
>>1545749
http://hojojutsu.org/ryuha

according to this website:

"ISHIGURO RYU (石黒流) Iskiguro ryu is a Koryu founded by Ishiguro Seki Hitoshi. The school incorporates Hojojutsu into its training repertoire alongside other arts such as Jujutsu, Atemijutsu, Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and Bojutsu. Another weapon included in the arsenal of the Ishiguro Ryu is a type of Fundonawa (Weighted Rope) although some seemingly replace the weight with an iron spike much like the Chinese rope-dart."

>>1526979
Draeger and Kaminoda doing tanjojutsu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUiX6g2v-9Q&list=PLY9pvudLrZZqZmWJSESoLtbZb9P-BRrPr&index=11

>>1556097
Draeger seems to have studied every bloody koryu in existence.

>>1556831
I guess it's because Shindo Muso-ryu has a lot of affiliated koryu. iirc, he mainly studied Shindo Muso-ryu and Katori Shinto-ryu, but SMR has like 4-5 other styles that were taught to high level people, so it's like he learned 6-7 koryu with those two schools and they were pretty extensive to begin with !
Plus he did judo, kendo and others, he did learn quite a lot.
Then again, in old times at least, having a couple of menkyo kaiden wasn't exactly a rarity.
In "recent" times, if you look at the big heads, Nakayama Hakudo for instance was soke of two schools, menkyo kaiden of another one (if not two), he was also the founder of yet another style, hanshi in iaido and kendo and I think he did an empty hands style too. Busy life...

>>1557008
>>1556831
Only two that I know Draeger studied, besides the sub styles of shinto muso ryu. but he studied alot of gendai budo to the point of a dan rank, and he did some Chinese stuff to. So training was basically his life.

The norm is probably one koryu with some gendai budo experience. Its very hard to do more than one koryu and not blend them together. In fact from what Ive read on Hakudo he pretty much did blend most of what he taught together. or at least made alot of changes to the koryu he inherited.

That is not a criticism by the way, he had tons of experience, and since he was teaching the arts in house it only makes sense that he would make them conform to his shinto munen ryu experience. While that might hurt their integrity as independent systems it would make it much easier for his students to absorb them.

>>1557451
Draeger did dedicate himself pretty much solely to Katori Shinto-ryu and Shinto Muso-ryu in the long term, but I'd imagine with his connections and profession he'd have had plenty of chances to train and try things with many teachers from other traditions. Maybe more as an equal than as a student, though.

>>1557769
Well thats an interesting thing you've raised. Cross training in koryu. Ive head some teachers say there is no value in learning a koryu except completely.

On the other hand I know of teachers who have gone to a koryu to learn a specific weapon or skill. Such things were probably common in the past, and i have a feeling with koryu struggling for students its becoming more common

>>1557802
>On the other hand I know of teachers who have gone to a koryu to learn a specific weapon or skill.
It could be this or a specific teacher. I remember stated in an interview that Pierre Simon and his wife were recommended by Nitta Suzuo (soke of Toda ha Buko ryu) to study Tatsumi-ryu as the soke would be a perfect match for them both. They went and despite the hardship it was to make a long travel, they did for years and ended up being indeed on an excellent relationship with the soke (can't remember the name there). They both got the menkyo kaiden of Tatsumi-ryu and ThBr iirc, but then again they seemed to be of the same mettle than E. Amdur, D. Draeger and the likes, having dedicated their lives to budo.

In the feudal era, it wasn't uncommon to study two different schools and we have some examples (that I would be hard pressed to produce with my memory alone though) of people having at least menkyo or even menkyo kaiden in two traditions, usually close ones (TSKSR and Kashima Shinto-ryu for instance), or even different lineages, but at that time, ryu usually were secluded on specific regions and clans so...

>>1557879
but most dojo were machi dojo, and the teachers relide on students for their livelihood.

I was thinking more like the example of Ueshiba trying to get Sugino to teach his KSR sojutsu. or not getting fornally linsenced but learning a bit under the cuff so sto speak.

normally ryu have rules against this type of thing, yet many ryu today are teaching basics in open seminars, in order to get students or more cynically make money.

>>1557896
Ah yes, it's a different thing indeed.
I've never heard of this though
>Ueshiba trying to get Sugino to teach his KSR sojutsu.
...especially since TSKSR's sojutsu is suppose to be sorta advanced stuff (in recent times at least). Could you develop this if you know more ?

>>1558003
I read in amdur that he approached sugino about learning the sojotsu. Sugino offered to make introductions for him, but Ueshbia countered that he wanted to learn from Sugino.

This is important because he already had a relationship being sugino's teacher. In a way it would have been a way for him to learn part of KSR without submitting himself to the ryu's hierarchy. Whether this was his intention or not is hard to say.

From what I read this never came to be in large part because of the end of WWII

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>>1521710

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kceOkMn0MRw

yagyu shingan ryu bojutsu.

I recently learn via amdur that their naginatajutsu in one line of the art is just reworked bojutsu kata, and they did this in the 20th century no less!

>>1557802
I didn't mean like "here are the basic kata of our tradition, do them for two hours now" but more like "well, we do a thing that looks like this -Ah, I get it, like this? -Yeah, exactly! -Yeah, we have something similiar, it's called..." and so on. Sharing deeper stuff and interesting tidbits between experienced practitioners. Both sides know exactly how much or how little it's worth.

>>1560511
how much its worth probably depends. something that would be worthless to a beginner could give an expert a lot of insight into your style.

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>>1521710
I was checking the curriculum of TSKSR in Deity and the Sword and I realized (only now) that though the names of the omote forms are pretty straightforward ("five teachings of the sword"; "ankle crushing staff"; "thrusting while drawing") the advanced ones, especially of the gokui forms seems to come straight from an anime ("eternal moon sword - temple wardens's stance"; "far mountain sword - floating boat stance") ! Now, I understand that advanced teachings and kata kinda need a cryptic name to somehow hide their teachings, even in writing, but still...

So what names of techniques take the cake ? Is there a particularly cheesy kata name in your style or any style you know ? Obviously, the needlessly long the better, same if there is cloud, wave, moon or sun in it.

>>1561979
Most ryuha have flowery names somewhere in their curriculum.

>Deity in the sword

The original? that must have cost alot

>>1562054
Nah the new one of the 2000's, in my country it's called "Deity and the Sword" as well, figured it would be easier to understand that way.

I've a totally legal pdf of the iaijutsu and kenjutsu (minus the kodachi and ryoto parts) parts of the older edition though (plus the historical and mystic stuff). Images are more numerous, but of a worse quality. You can make nice flipbooks of them though. The newer version have more text, so I'd go as far as to say that it's overall a better pick (and cheaper).

>>1561979
For us, the poetic names are supposed to evoke imagery and feeling of the proper technique and the concepts and teachings behind the kata (and sound cool and mystical, I guess).

Lots of waves (smoothly flowing but irresistible power), floating things (follow the opponents movements), winds (move fast and enter straight to his face like an annoying head wind), moons (mostly referring to shapes but also things like the swiftness of moonbeams), tigers (be like a tiger, rawr)... Things that you might automatically associate certain characteristics with if you grew in the same cultural and religious environment as the founder. Also things that might make you go "Ah!" after doing the kata for a while.

And then straightforward things like "stopping a thrust" and "handle strike" between all those fancy names. Maybe the founder ran out of ideas.

>>1526979
Used to do this I would do it again if I had the money.

DAILY REMINDER:

HEMA and AMA are boy-lubu for each other!

>sugoi
>n-no home
>wakasashi + rapier = ultimate combo

>>1562304
Now I didn't write the previous post to convey the idea that I thought fancy names for techniques are ridiculous, far from it. In fact, I think it's telling that in TSKSR at least the basic kata have descriptive names and that the advanced ones have poetic names.

With the basic ones, you immediately know what they teach, the deeper understanding isn't necessarily more obvious, but at least you have an indication where to look at ("five swords" - "staff to the left and right"). Besides, it allows additional meanings to be dispensed later.

Then advanced kata have colourful names so that you engage the mental process a bit more, plus it helps keeps the actual teaching goal hidden if for instance you were spied (TSKSR also deals with counter-ninjutsu after all).
Common themes (waves, wind, animal, moon) is very good at that since it gives both common cultural analogies (as you pointed out, everybody in Japan at that time could have a grasp at it), but then it doesn't really allow you to know what they exactly signify on the practical sense ("cutting wave sword" is darn cool but no way to know what is there to actually perform). But as you pointed out, if you are a student of the ryu-ha, when you are confronted to the actual kata, it usually makes perfect sense. For instance, it's very easy to understand why the first ryoto kata is named "nio no kurai" (temple wardens stance), but if you haven't seen it in person...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiTj5LFSGeI
In fact, all the special stances names in ryoto kata make sense when you see the kata, but then you'd have to be a student to have them being taught so...

I guess to me, those fancy names look both kitsch and cool, they certainly are a trait that is commonly despised about TMA, but when you think of it as a method to protect and hide what they were actually teaching, it makes a lot of sense, plus it shows that the founders had a certain cultural and poetic knowledge and weren't only good fighters.

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>>1564057
>sugoi
>n-no home
What in the what ?

>wakasashi + rapier = ultimate combo
>wakasashi
>not kodachi
>wakizashi + rapier
>not kodachi + naginata

>>1521710
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhbWz_yCe4E

Nakayama hakudo doing shinto muso ryu jojutsu

>>1564495
Do they really do this? it seems so impractical, especially if you consider how much a real naginata weighs. The swordman would have every advantage in that situation

>>1566739
It's been a while since I've seen my old videos of Tendo-ryu so... iirc, the kodachi is drawn in the naginata vs tachi kata, there isn't a specific set of naginata and kodachi against the tachi. In those kata, the ukedachi is getting close with the sword so the shidashi draws her kodachi because at short range, the naginata is kinda useless, the ukedashi is fended off and then, there's usually a couple of blows before the end, usually, the naginata is used to stab from gedan, not so much to slash, the kodachi is used to cover and block the opponent's tachi.

For what I've seen it's really more a plan B tactic than anything (I don't practice Tendo-ryu so...). The naginata is braced in the armpit and besides thrusting and doing horizontal interdiction slashes, there isn't much else, I remember a jujidome done with a crossing of the two weapons like in many two weapons style (both HNIR and TSKSR have them in their nito / ryoto kata).

This setup is situational, it's really a "heh, remember you have a second weapon"-thing, there's only a handful of kata ending like this. Nonetheless, Tendo-ryu has also a nito kodachi set ! Two kodachi, now that's really weird !

It's also true that Tendo-ryu is very influenced by light naginata. I think Larry Bieri said something about it, he studied both TSKSR and Tendo-ryu (very fun to see him apparently the only gaijin and the only man in the dojo) and he said that the naginata work in both school is pretty different and this as a lot to do with the type of naginata, TSKSR using the old style (o-naginata), Tendo-ryu the new lighter "womanly" style.

>>1566739
>>1567665
Here's a Tendo-ryu video of the BBC.
You can't see kodachi and naginata, but here's Larry Bieri, the only guy in blue obviously...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DasKqEcKblM

>>1567665
To be honest, the way TSKSR uses their naginata is pretty different from most (if not all) other ryu too. The hold it at the middle, leaving two equal length parts (blade end and ishizuki end) for attack or defense. They sacrifice the ma-ai advantage for speed and flexibility.

To my knowledge most ryu that still use larger naginata (not that there are many, but e.g. ours uses one of roughly equal length and weigth to TSKSR) use it in a more "conventional" way, as a heavy longer range weapon, holding it closer to the rear end. We do reverse it and slide the grip, but only when the situation demands it, not half of the time like Shinto ryu. It's clearly a weapon of war, for armored combat, with all the limitations of movement that come with that.

I do agree though that many ryu, especially those that specialize in naginata, have indeed been changed by the branding as a women's weapon (if not already during the Edo-era or even at the time of their founding, then at least during the early 1900's when naginata became more widespread). Even Tendo ryu does have separate sets for oo- and ko-naginata, but they are done with the same weapon these days. On the other hand, Toda-ha Buko-ryu used to be practiced by mostly women too, but many of the current shihan are large (western) men that have likely taken the ryu closer to its roots.

>>1567959
>the way TSKSR uses their naginata is pretty different from most (if not all) other ryu too.
True, in fact you'd have more reach with the bo than with the naginata. I have read that in TSKSR, the reach advantage is kinda downplayed as there are many techniques to counter it (like the hashikakaru - crossing the bridge - that is done in the very first bo kata and everywhere in the sojutsu for instance). Now of course it's a certain way of seeing things, but it could explain why they prefer versatility and flexibility, which can't really be played against you, rather than a reach advantage with the naginata, that can transform itself into a drawback, this especially since naginata being far more front heavy than a bo, they're even more at a disadvantage when they've been "passed" (wouldn't have been easy to do but it's still the obvious counter).

I'd agree that TSKSR seems to be the only one or one of the very few that do things that way. I guess it's just a clash of methodology. Since we are talking about O-naginata, I doubt that this is foreign to you, but who knows, plus it's always fun to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wem9KZeFKEA

Another quirk that seems to be specific of TSKSR is the turn they do in many if not all of their kata, definitely uncommon and characteristic. I suspect it's only doable thanks to the way they hold it (never tried to do it while grabbing the end and first quarter - way to be a deadly budo helicopter).

About Tendo-ryu, I didn't know that there was sets for different naginata (or rather I'd forgotten). It's good to rememeber that the post-war era had been pretty harsh especially for naginata schools like Jikishinkage-ryu Naginata-do and Tendo-ryu (a bit less for ThBr it seems). The reorganization of budo at that time seemed to have been a "join or die" moment, and apparently, many of those schools agreed to modify their teachings and to modernize some of their stuff in order to keep what they could and keep up teaching.

>>1568104
I wonder if that way of using the naginata is partly for the benefit of the swordsman, too (since they always say that all the other weapons are really for training the swordsman against them). Since he already has experience against the reach of the bo, the naginata offers a surprisingly different, very dangerous opponent.

Yeah, Chokugen-ryu always looks nice and I think you can see the improvement over the years on how she handles the weapon! Maybe that's why they twirl it around all the damn time instead of just walking normally, to maximize the handling practice...

If I remember correctly, Chokugen-ryu is headed by Sasamori Takemi, more commonly known as the soke Ono-ha Itto-ryu, and it nearly died out at some point.

I looked for the kata descriptions in Otake's new book Heiho for a proper explanation of that spinning movement in TSKSR, but sadly it only says that "kirikomi... performs yama-meguri" at each point. Yamameguri meaning something like "circling/touring the mountain/s"

>>1568156
Well since the bo is already a long striking weapon and the yari a long thrusting weapon, it could be that the naginata is there to provide another type of weapon that is all about attacking from a lot of potential angles in each posture. For every kamae, there is usually one or two direct way to attack, with the naginata, it's more about three or four, it makes it a real pain in the brain to guess what's going to happen to you when you face it.

For the curazy_spin, there is obviously lots of possible explanations (and to get back on fancy name this one doesn't really help). It could be that it's a way to make the student remember to check out what's going on all around him/herself, working the zanshin. The logical combat application is that it's a bait, yeah sure you spin and offer your back, but during that time if shidashi gets too close, it's going to be "ishizuki to your face" and then there's a build-up for a tremendous do-giri at the end of the spin. Plus, it's usually done backwards, so it would force the opponent to decide very quickly if s/he takes the bait, but then you better hurry and enter a lot or you won't be able to dodge or block the do-giri.
There's probably hidden meanings as well, but the way the hyoshi is at the point of the kata where the spin is done, I'd say it indicates a stall and then the shidashi baits with the spin in order to finally get a good decisive cut.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know better, those are the classical entry explanations, perhaps you heard them already but then...

>>1568156
About Chokugen-ryu, I don't know much about it but those two videos, yet it's just so freakin' impressive it's hard to pass by. Alongside some Yakumaru Jigen-ryu, it's one of my go to "awesome budo-vid".
I agree about the endless twirl at the beginning and end of the kata, that way, you practice the basic handling everytime, even though it doesn't necessarily have a direct combative application at the moment (and especially after having it done three-four times).
It's the same in many other styles btw.
Since we're talking about it, in TSKSR, all the first kata for each weapon starts with both people in ma'ai and then ukedachi pushes shidashi by two steps before getting in guard. That way, the very first thing you do when starting a new weapon is checking the ma'ai of said weapon and getting accustomed to it, always be in a comfortable range, not letting the partner getting too close or far away.

>>1568198
>but during that time if shidachi gets too close
>shidachi
meant ukedachi of course...

>>1568198>>1568156

I believe the spin is a deflection with the butt of the weapon followed by a slash to the legs. Thats what I can remember reading somewhere anyway

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Hey guys, I'm testing in two months for my third-degree black belt and I need to perform a demo using a Jo and an Escrima, in the Japanese and Filipino styles respectively. Does anyone here have some favorite traditional katas on video that I can use?

I'm aware that there's no such thing as Kata in FMA but any performance or demo with a single performer will do. Thanks!

Pic unrelated.

>>1569954
What? shouldn't they be teaching you how to do things rather than having you look them up on youtube?

>>1569987
The purpose of this demo is to bring something new to the table. Last year I did a Wushu Bo kata and it was great, I learned that from youtube.

>>1570025
I think that approach is entirely wrong headed.

>>1568805
It could be, it depends on what the ukedachi is doing, if s/he goes for a downward slash, a deflection is indeed possible with the ishizuki. If he enters badly and leave is upper body open there is room for a thrust with the butt as well.

I don't think it has or is one specific thing, there's probably one or two main purposes, but I guess the variations of this precise movement allow a large varieties of counter, deflection, off-line stepping, build-up for an unexpected attack, etc...

>>1569954
>>1570025
So, instead of teaching you how to do things correctly they ask you to learn from videos? What kind of system do you train in?

>>1570025
Sensei youtube kek.

>>1571557
>>1571305
>>1570971

It may sound bad to you, but really, it's a lesson in versatility. For this demo, students are supposed to come up with something on their own. I want to take the extra step and bring something that comes from another style. My Sensei said that that's encouraged.

>>1569954
>>1572252
What precise style of jo are you doing ?
Did you check the old police jo ? here
>>1527300
That is if you aren't doing SMR (and somehow I doubt it). Morihiro Saito's aikijo is foundable on youtube, especially the 13 jo kata, then again, if it isn't what you are doing.

Plus, it's one thing to look into other stuff, it's another to youtube-fu, which doesn't seem to be "coming up with something on your own" but then.

>>1572376
Thanks for the feedback man. I am looking for any traditional style of Jo. The Police Jo and the other two videos are great, but all three involve two people. The 13 Jo Kata is pretty good but a little slow for my taste. I'm looking for something with power like what you see at Wushu competitions. Correct me if I'm wrong and there's no such thing like that for the Jo.

He lets us use any resources we'd like. The kata is much more creative than you may think - I'm using a Bo staff that turns into a Jo staff that turns into to Kali sticks, all in one kata. It'll look great :)

>>1572633
Ah, you're one of those extreme martial arts dudes. Cool shows.

>>1572699
Haha yes and no. XMA is pretty to look at but it's on the level of kung fu panda when it comes to appreciating martial arts. But yes this demo is not very functional - just a Kata with a single person striking air.

>>1572633
Traditional jojutsu are always two people forms, that's how the traditional teaching was done, when it wasn't repetitive cutting drills. Solo stuff will be gendaï mostly if not only.
Besides, there's a definite difference between power and say speed as you seem to think. Power shouldn't manifest itself visually, it's the opposite of proper martial arts. Nothing stops you from doing the 13 or 31 jo kata (or any other) fastly anyway...

Anyway, I don't exactly know what sort of demo this will be, mixing two very different traditions (how do you think looking at traditional forms will help you in that is still a mystery). How the hell will you "turn a bo into a jo and into sticks", does it involve a saw or a telescopic staff, I don't even wanna know, it looks more like a nightwing larp-show than martial arts but well, to each his/her own I suppose.

I just don't understand why you ask for practical traditional forms when what you seem to be doing is a demo which mainly aims to be pretty to look at (if it's not it, it's definitely what you portray it as). I mean no offense but I don't think this is the proper thread for help really.

>>1532299
>>1534386
There are interesting similiarities in those two styles. Is there a historical connection or is it because that guy does both?

>>1574716
Quick search tends to reveal there is none, except maybe a common parent as both founders studied the Shinto-style of Tsukahara Bokuden and some other styles of this large tradition.
SMR and Suio-ryu were made in the same moment (very early 17th c.), so it looks more like two parallel development with common parents than anything with a direct connection.
Apparently, this specific person indeed has (had?) a habit of having one style permeating when he did the other, in jojutsu at least, so it may be safer to think that it's a personal reason rather than a historical one.

Here's another clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSodKrQp6m4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fffgtgcnRnU

Ellis Amdur doing araki ryu bojutsu and kenjutsu. The bojutsu are done "As is" while the kenjutsu was done in a semi sparring form.

>>1574716
>>1574733
Suio Ryu jo might be older than Shinto Muso Ryu, being supposedly based on yamabushi staff arts (kongojo) that the founder learned in his youth. Whereas Shinto Muso Ryu jo was modified from Shinto Ryu's bojutsu by the founder.

Based on what I've seen and heard, these different origins seem to be reflected in the techniques. Suio Ryu has less emphasis on striking and more on thrusting to finish the encounter. The rhythm and feeling of the techiques is also different.

Of course there are only so many ways to swing a jo, so there are bound to be similiarities. But to my knowledge there is no historical connection between the arts.

Matsumura is an interesting case. Apparently he has a menkyo kaiden in SMR, but also in Suio Ryu jo and naginata (from the previous soke), but not the whole Ryu.

Disclaimer: I'm not a member of either Ryu, just an outside observer and know some people.

>>1581633
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxF4L0gDs4A
A fairly interesting interview of Mike Edelson about cutting stuff with swords, the guy does Toyama-ryu after all.

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>>1581792
>>1581792
An interesting perspective, but not the only one.

This translation of the thoughts on tamashigiri by two of the most famous swordsmen of the 20th century ruffled alot of feathers in the toyama ryu community.

http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/01/28/thoughts-on-tameshigiri-from-famous-swordsmen/

>>1568156
From my understanding the main advantage they gain in holding the naginata in the middle is speed, and the ability to use the butt of the weapon equally. I would also think it would give superior leverage.

The downside is of course you sacrifice the crushing power of the weapon, as well as a good deal of range.

>>1567665
>>1567959
>>1568104
From elsewhere:

" It was Mitamura Akinori who reorganised the Tendo ryu for school teaching at the end of the 19th century. The kata were systematised into groups and the training equipment became lighter to fit young girls. The original o-naginata was dropped. The naginata kata where empathised [sic] and taught to groups."

>>1582211
Very nice, I'd read the part of Takano Sasaburo already, but not the one of Nakayama Hakudo. Now of course those two pieces should be replaced in their original contexts, we are something like two or even three generations later now, things have changed, that is not to say those two points aren't sensible or relevant. These two people had been trained by actual warriors who used their skills in the Boshin war. I don't know if both Takano and Nakayama fought though (maybe in the Russian war...).

What is "funny" then is that the people who made the Toyama-ryu that is known now were the ones that had been disatisfied with the training designed in the 1920-1930's by Nakayama Hakudo and Takano Sasaburo (and others). They were trained under those people's methodology and it failed them in actual combat in China and Manchuria, leading to changes via direct combat experiences. Maybe the techniques taught weren't adapted to the recruits and condition of fighting in a modern war, maybe they were too complex, but ultimately they were deemed unsatisfactory. So the beef between new Toyama-ryu and the "old" swordsmen existed in other levels.

Now I'm not part in any sort of Toyama-ryu dojo, so maybe I'm off.

>>1584559
The thing is you get the same reach as the tachi (perhaps slightly more but comparable), but the leverage is indeed way bigger because you have three or four times the space between your hands, and you could enlarge it even further. This gives better control, you can go from a pushing cut to the throat to cutting the ankle in a flash, and from thrusting the butt in the face to cutting the inner thigh just as fast. It's really all about leverage, and this informs everything else.

Naginata isn't really about crushing power as it's still all about getting in the gaps. In TSKSR as in other styles (ThBr for instance), the cuts are done exactly where the tachi also strikes, in the inner thighs and wrists, throat, armpits. You don't need crushing power here.

>>1584626
Higo Ko-ryu is especially interesting. They use a peculiar naginata that's supposed to have a remarkably long, fairly straight blade (almost half the lenght of the weapon, making it close to a huge nagamaki).

It would of course be heavy as fuck, so it's used in a very economical way, with cuts based mostly on body movement and delicate, precise thrusts to the gaps in armor. Yet like others, it's mostly a women's art too these days.

>>1584680
Ah yes I have a 1970's video of Higo Ko-ryu with two quite old ladies wielding the peculiar naginata of the school like a breeze. Fairly different from others in forms, the weapon indeed is closer to a massive nagamaki as you've said (o-nagamaki anyone ?). It's been a while since I've check said video though...

Another train of thought, I was reading a conversation about using longsword to train spadone (big two-handers) and one of the masters said that, because the spadone is waaay heavier (like two to three times heavier), you can't train spadone unless you have a spadone. If you use a lighter weapon, you can cheat with forms, with a real spadone, it's just absolutely unforgiving. You have to use your body to cut if you want to do it more than once or twice, and you have to be very economical and very efficient to do anything really. I suspect the use of massive naginata like the Higo Ko-ryu or Chokugen-ryu ones would need the same precision of body movements.

>>1581792
>>1582211
Second part and end of the interview, interesting things once again.

>>1585222
Aaand forgot the link like an idiot king.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R55Un3rLuDg

>>1584626
>You don't need crushing power here.

I have to disagree here, true that you cut for gaps in most styles but the naginata was originally used against horsemen and armored warriors, even the gaps in traditional armor could have protection. the cross section of the naginata blade is designed to withstand enormous sheering power.

Look at how araki ryu uses the weapon for instance, large swings, techniques like double kesa giri which put enormous stress on the defender. Even toda ha boku ryu teaches that their techniques should "crush" the enemy.

>>1585248
My point was that it's still mainly a cutting weapon, the crushing effect is the result of the technique rather than the weapon itself. Wielding it in one way or another will certainly modify how easily you can "crush" and/or "cut" the enemy, but you can always compensate with good technique.
Sure the naginata is more "powerful" than a sword because of lenght and weight and all that, but in the end, the place and how you get your blade in is what matters.

Not that I disagree with anything you've said, quite the contrary.

>>1584626
>What is "funny" then is that the people who made the Toyama-ryu that is known now were the ones that had been dissatisfied with the training designed in the 1920-1930's by Nakayama Hakudo and Takano Sasaburo (and others). They were trained under those people's methodology and it failed them in actual combat in China and Manchuria, leading to changes via direct combat experiences. Maybe the techniques taught weren't adapted to the recruits and condition of fighting in a modern war, maybe they were too complex, but ultimately they were deemed unsatisfactory. So the beef between new Toyama-ryu and the "old" swordsmen existed in other levels.

My understanding is that it was the miltary kendo they had been unsatisfied with, and several classical swordsmen, such as Nakayama were brought in to develop the gunto soho which became toyama ryu and nakamura ryu.

Nakamura was very famous for poo pooing most schools of classical swordsmanship, mainly because they lacked testcutting. Ive heard several koryu guys argue that

1.with proper technique you can do things like tamashigiri first try, making it largely unnecessary.

2.the over emphasis on tamashigiri leads to huge cuts that leave you wide open

>>1585232
the discussion of training large to small is interesting as is the discussion of blade geometry.

most blades used in tamashigiri have a cleaver like cross section, as opposed to the thicker cross section of battlefield weapons

>>1585267
I agree crushing power is a product of technique. But the weapon and the way you hold it (middle or end) facilitate this

>>1585281
Yeah I mixed it up a little bit, but then Nakayama Hakudo (and Takano Sasaburo) were the ones who among others designed early kendo. If the military was unsatisfied wit the kendo, it could make sense to bring him aboard to correct what was wrong in their application of it. It's a bit of a "re-educate the child" though.

Nakamura certainly had a beef against some koryu, I'd agree on some stuff (for instance the seiza posture used in iaido doesn't make sense since it's an indoor stance that is incompatible with the bearing of the long sword), some others a bit less.
Now you could definitely turn the cutting point all around: "you don't cut so you don't know what you're doing" versus "cutting stationary objects leads to bad combat behaviour". In a sence, they are all right, the question is "what do you train for ?".

And the video, yes large to small, very good point. I liked the answer to katana vs longsword in regard to cutting, very laconic which suits the japanese style I guess.

>>1585300
The only schools I know of him praising were yakumaru jigen ryu and kashima shin ryu, though he saved his greatest vitriol for Omori ryu.

I respect the man but disagree with him on many points. I also never liked the videos of him doing tamashigiri. To be fair though there is not enough of him for me to make a judgment

>>1585694
Oh I knew about Omori-ryu but I never saw anything from him about Yakumaru Jigen-ryu, do you have a text about that, you've picked my curiosity now...

It would be the same from me, the little I've seen not a lot I've agreed upon, though some thoughts are going in an interesting even if provocating way. Then again, I don't study his style or anything close to it, I'm way too green and he is dead now anyway, I don't think there's much to think about, you don't have to agree or consider every master I suppose.

>I also never liked the videos of him doing tamashigiri.
Is there a particular reason ? I recently saw that there was a mock-decapitation by him in "Budo: the art of killing", not very tasty I must say.

>>1586057
He seemed to be cutting in a way that, though excellent for cutting, leaves you exposed. Ive seen tamashigiri by some of his students that was much better, so I cant nessasarly use that as an indictment of his skill.

I couldn't find the passage but he said jigen ryu was a strong style because of their striking practice, but he suggested that was still inferior to tamashigiri.

he also said Kunii Zenya could cut anything.

>>1584751
>>1584680
I would be interested in the 1970's video. while the kata Ive seen are very interesting, the demonstrations Ive seen that were done recently seemed very phoned in. Heavy on form and low on intent

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In "Deity and the Sword" there is a very elusive mention of "tombo-e" (dragonfly drawings), which is basically stick figures showing stances and sometimes illustrating the starting point of a kata. I've been checking a bit for those and found two other examples related to Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and Kashima Shinto-ryu. Is there more to it, informations about such drawings, schools that used them ?

>>1587795
I'm sorry, the video I have is kinda supposed to be private, plus (and mostly) legal issues and such. Anyway it's a fairly big file and I don't have anything to link it.

Maybe you can do some research and found it, it was in a series of tapes made in the late 70's, early 80's about all sorts of koryu.

Those clips are of the same series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5Sgh0ETSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQB5Lc1C_a8
I can't remember who made them right now, but I can look into this at least.

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>>1588296
More of that.

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>>1588307
And the third and last one I have.

>>1588296
Those videos are from the Nihon Kobudo series by Nihon Budokan and Nihon Kobudo Kyokai.

You can find them as DVD's these days from various sellers (I've seen them in several large bookstores in Japan and on many sites), but the prices are around 10,000 yen (100 dollars) a piece.

Some vids, or parts of them, you can find on youtube but not nearly all. The are probably the best koryu documentaries around and cover many lesser known ryu.

>>1588296
I figured as much

>>1588296
Thats some nice niten ichi ryu

>>1567665

Ah so htey just hold the naginata in their armpit and fight with the kodachi. Interesting.

>>1592255
In Jikishinkage-ryu Naginata-do, there are some kata that combine naginata and kodachi, but not really in the same way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwaxNRAYmM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEYVo54eAu0

One of the kata involved dropping the naginata and finishing with the kodachi (in a reverse grip btw). Kinda the same principle in a different way. They also have a nice technique when the opponent has grabbed the butt of the naginata (what else).

iirc, in Toda-ha Buko-ryu, there is a similar-ish defense but there the naginata is thrown at the opponent's feet (or directly at him/her if possible) in order to create some space and time to draw the kodachi and to end the kata with it.

It's no wonder really that this was considered, since just like with the spear, once your range is compromised, you better have a backup plan which usually involves a shorter blade or yawara.

>>1592445
that makes sense. It was holding the naginata while fighting with the kodachi I found strange

>>1592445
Amdur wrote some interesting things about this schools history in his newest addition of oldschool. He speculated they were heavily influenced by gekiken techniques of the time, specifically the super long shinai used by some schools for competitive advantage.

It was at one time one of the premier styles of naginata challenge matches

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bump

>>1596349
Since we are posting Tatsumi-ryu, here's a demonstration of the style by Claire Seika and her school. She and her late husband Pierre Simon Iwao went to Japan to study martial arts and immerged themselves into the japanese culture. They came back with a teaching licence of Tatsumi-ryu, Toda-ha Buko-ryu and traditionnal calligraphy, plus Negishi-ryu for Pierre Iwao and traditionnal play of the koto instrument for his wife. Truly dedicated people of Budo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeRWuNIK95c

>>1521710
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WISACFHHD2Q
A somehow valuable video of Kashima Shinto-ryu, the twelve kajo of the omote no tachi set (basic techniques), with names for each of them. Not that easy to find complete and in order.

>>1597212
Its a fasicnating series of kata, with alot of possiblities in terms of waza. There long kata seem to be a more primitive version of the long chains katori shinto ryu uses.

The thing that interests me most about this school is the amount of binding techniques they use.

>>1599304
Well I find that their omote no tachi looks very similar in terms of ma'aï, techniques and length (though not in terms of hyoshi obviously) to TSKSR's gogyo no tachi (rather than their own omote set). But it's no surprises really, Kashima Shinto-ryu specialized themselves in closer combat than most schools; in TSKSR, the omote no tachi are done at the longest distance, while the gogyo no tachi are the close combat, unarmored sets. There, between both schools, you find the same strikes in the torii stance at the wrists, the same lateral control on the mune, the same use of the one-handed strikes being more common. It's both obvious and fascinating really.
In the hotsu no tachi of TSKSR (last gogyo no kata), there is even the same wringing dry of the tsuka that is commonly seen in KSR.

But then, Bokuden learned katori no tachi in his native family and kashima no tachi in his adoptive one.

TSKSR's gogyo no tachi starts at 5:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQB5Lc1C_a8

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>>1600119
>>1599304
Here's a nice image of a still in mitsu no tachi (first TSKSR gogyo no tachi), since you like binding techniques.

Friendly wrasslebump. Stay excellent, sword brothers.

>>1597132
To tell you the truth its a style Ive never fully rapped my head around. The footwork in it just seems so modern in comparison to the curriculum.

>>1600122
>>1568805
>>1568104
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTG94EbevA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqlnxOLhkWU
Here's a two-part video on the TSKSR that have a lot of explanations (all in japanese but the meanings are quite understandable by simply watching the moves). There is a nice demonstration of the hashikakaru (TSKSR's technique against the three long weapons, that allows to get close safely). There is a little something on the naginata spin that indeed shows a deflection with the ishizuki. And then, how to grip the tsuka, Otake laughing, Otake saying "bam" "snip" and "eeergh" while demonstrating nice draw/push cuts to the wrists, him showing the blade catching technique of the image posted up, blocking with the gauntlets. Second vid has gokui no iai, some shuriken stuff, a good deal of jujutsu/yawara and atemijutsu ("sunapu !").
Very nice all around video, and it's fun to see the Otakes in a somehow less formal setting.

>>1600119
Very interesting.

Supposedly the double hits you see in shinkage ryu's empi no tachi are a direct counter to these techniques. The swordman diverts his sword at impact and cuts off the thumb of the person bracing is sword. At least thats how I understand the technique.

>>1607046
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLBllSp3Fxk

Do kendo practitioners have performance stats, similar to baseball and basketball?

>>1600122
It looks here like he is griping the mune of the other guys sword with his hand

>>1607046
>>1607061
Truth be said, I know next to nothing on Shinkage-ryu but its history, their kata and waza aren't familiar at all. The video was an interesting sight, but since it's an advanced set, I don't know if I could interpret it or discuss it in any sort of relevant way.

What I see is that it indeed looks a lot like somehow an imitation of Kashima Shinto-ryu's omote no tachi (moreso than TSKSR's at least). In that regard, seeing it as a response to the Shinto-ryu style is certainly (at least a bit) correct.

The efficiency of the double hits (done mostly when uchidachi is in the torii stance) are to me a little bit dubious though. Uchidachi seems to (purposedly?) misplace his thumb, as in the Katori style, only the last or two last fingers are accessible as while parrying, the thumb is specifically hidden behind the opposite shinogi, so that it's not cut by a second cut, exactly like you've said. In the first omote-no-tachi (the very first kata your learn btw) of TSKSR, there is a passage where shidachi takes the torii stance to respond to a strong men from jodan done by uchidachi. I can tell you that as shidachi you quickly learn to protect your thumb ! I myself took hits on them until I did it right. It just seems like for an advanced set, it's adressing something that would not be possible under usual circumstances. Obviously, if the opponent's does his/her torii badly, you can react to it, but I don't think that you need a kata for that, besides it would be designing an advanced set where you fight an enemy that does such an obvious mistake ? Not probable enough.

Now it's easy on me to say that without giving an explanation, but then I don't know much about Yagyu-ryu, so don't take my opinion too seriously either.

>>1609899
It's exactly what he is doing, it's a part of Mitsu-no-tachi, the first kata of the advanced tachi set of TSKSR (Gogyo-no-tachi).
Look at the video I posted earlier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTG94EbevA
The exact action starts at 11:05, you can see how it's done more dynamically.

The enemy cut, you parry in torii, before the enemy retract his sword to re-engage, you trap it with the hand that you put forward during the torii, and then you thrust to the face. Obviously, this is doable only because 1) the first attack is parried so that the opponent's sword is briefly stopped, 2) your left hand and your kissaki have entered the opponent's ma'aï while parrying in torii.

>>1609962

empi no tachi is actually one of the intermediate sets, there are a few after it. YOu can see an example from a different line of the style here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn-p19C8MAQ

Lowry describes it this way in Persimmon Wind

"I bounced mine away, twitched it up and snapped it back down in a diagonal slash"

looking at videos of katori and kashima shinto ryu there do indeed seem to be instances where the thumb or other fingers are exposed to such a attack, depending on the angle and timing. The hand placement used today in shinkage ryu might be somewhat different than what is done in shinto ryu styles today.

Of course like you I am only speculating on how such an encounter would go. Supposedly the empi no tachi teach how to counter the techniques of shinto ryu kenjutsu

>>1610889
another example of empi no tachi from a distant branch of shinkage ryu shows an entirely different response using the same basic principle of bouncing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGTqC0omZvs

>>1610909
>>1610889
You're totally right to say that what was true in the 16th century, might have changed now. After all, just looking at those three lines of one single school, we have three different approach of the kata. It wouldn't be crazy to imagine that what it was responding to in the early Edo era is different across several schools and centuries.

Anyway it does seem there is different applications or understanding of this bouncing attack, it's certainly peculiar. But looking at how uchidachi is moving and attacking, it seems very likely to say that it's an emulation of the Shinto-ryu traditions I won't doubt that. And then, Kamiizuni Nobutsuna is supposed to have studied at least one of the Shinto-ryu traditions (plus Nen-ryu and Kage-ryu), so it would make sense that he tried to implement them in some part of his curriculum. It's actually a good idea to have a handful of kata that makes you think and move differently, it broadens your mind, and this was certainly useful in his times.

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>>1521710
Elaborate bump.

Everybody loves schools with a massive curriculum and/or several different weapons, big names like TSKSR, Shinto Muso-ryu, Jikishinkage-ryu, Ono-ha Itto-ryu, etc...
But recently I have tried to look into schools which are quite the opposite, those who have a pretty short set of techniques, from the foundation rather than because they "lost" some of them.
I count among them ones like Kurama-ryu (though they apparently lost a bit so sort of a bad example), Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu, Kogen Itto-ryu, Yakumaru Jigen-ryu...

Any other names that you would know and maybe the reasons for such a short curriculum ?

>>1614836
A short curriculum does not necessarily imply a lack of sophistication. IN fact many of the big schools probably started with far fewer kata than they have today.

a single kata might have several variations, so especially if the school only practices one weapon, like the sword it could make sense only to have one or two sets.

There are also a number of schools that used to be far bigger, but only a small part of their curriculum has survived, like Kiramaki ryu iai.

>>1615105
>A short curriculum does not necessarily imply a lack of sophistication.
I certainly didn't want to imply that, and in fact I would probably argue that in most cases it's quite the contrary. It's really not a case of more = better or the opposite, just curious about the motivations if by any chance it's known.
And I know well (enough) that creating kata along the ryu's history and losing some is quite common, even among the big names.

Case in point, apparently Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu used to be larger in its inception, but the line that survived only had a part of the original curriculum (5 odachi kata, 3 kodachi kata). Meanwhile, all of their kenjutsu kata are done in both sides (not that rare but uncommon), and they both have two ways of being done - omote and ura - which is quite usual.

>>1615262
Its hard to say why some schools got by with less.

perhaps they were not "complete" systems but specialty systems for people who already knew the basics. Maybe they were designed more efficiently. Maybe they relied on shinai keiko to fill in any gaps. Lots of possibles.

>>1614836
I've always considered Niten Ichi-ryu to be pretty compact, at least compared to many other traditions.

I also admire Yakumaru Jigen-ryu for doing so much with so little. The practice is simple, only a few exercises and kata, yet they aim to totally transform the practitioner to a veritable beast. It's one of the few surviving traditions meant for making fighters from low ranking men in a reasonable time frame, but that doesn't make it less sophisticated, just extremely optimized.

Try imitating the posture and technique they use for yokogi-uchi. Looks simple but is pretty deep stuff as far as body mechanics goes.

You often hear complaints that traditions with a short curriculum only prepare you for limited scenarios or that traditions with a large curriculum leave less time to master the individual kata but both of those miss the point.

Whether you're training 10 or 100 kata, you're not training 10 or 100 different things but just one: your ryu's way of doing things, through specific examples.

>>1615428
Many traditions claim that you can learn all you need from the first kata alone, but of course this would need a mad amount of practice and commitment. Learning more kata of the same system gives you more viewpoints on the same teachings. It makes it easier to gradually understand that underneath the individual forms, it's all the same shit, so to speak.

Me, I like practicing a comprehensive system with a large curriculum, but the more I practice, the more I come back to the very first sets of kata we learn. The important stuff is all there.

>>1615451
>Many traditions claim that you can learn all you need from the first kata alone

Ive never liked this claim, I will grant you that you could learn the personality, and therefore the core of the style form the first kata, but you would not learn everything you need to know about sword handling. And being as most of us come into a school with no knowledge of sword handling that would be a pretty big issue.

File: pj_and_jim_jan15.jpg (270KB, 1253x812px) Image search: [Google]

270KB, 1253x812px

Is Peter James a reputable instructor? He's trained with James Keating, who's pretty respected. I've seen some of his videos about translating katana/wakizashi techniques to more modern, smaller knives and it seems solid to me.

>>1616914
Any modern system stands on its own merits. I could not find any videos and his website makes me very suspicious. The listing of ninjutsu as an influence is a big red flag, as is that he doesn't name specific schools or teachers, just generic arts, which is not something most people affiliated with genuine Japanese martial arts do

>>1615633
Yeah, it's like doing calculus or something. You do all the exercises in the book, they seem really hard individually, then at some point you realize the thought patterns and general principles that you can use to solve them all.

Usually in math books, as opposed to koryu, the general principles are stated from the beginning, but all the same you need to practice many many situational examples to actually understand them on an intuitive level. Then you realize that you theoretically could've gotten all that from the first problem/kata, but not actually.

I got a new hakama, indigo dyed #8,800 cotton, and it's really stiff and drapes kinda awkwardly. I'm more familiar with synthetic ones though my first one was a used cotton one and it was pretty soft and felt really nice.

Is there any way to soften the fabric before use? I'm gonna hand wash it in cold water first to get rid of at least some of the excess indigo, but will that help with the fabric? Or do I just have to use it for long enough?

>>1605758
I finally got around to watching these, I really enjoyed the demonstration of hashikakaru, the use of hassuji particularly stood out to me.

Do you know what year this video is from?

>>1620894
I don't really know, but by looking at the Otakes, the hair of Risuke, the fact that it's still Nobutoshi doing most of the kata with his father, Shigetoshi looking in his thirties, I'd say it's late 1980's, early 1990's. A bit random but that's all I could say.

About hashikakaru, it's the best demonstration that is sorta in-depth that I've seen on video. When I received it for the first time, at the beginning you're like "ok that's strange but I still feel like I could get away" and then, way too fast, you're like "oh shit the blade is on me, where should I get the pole, where should I move" and this is going step by step. It doesn't feels like it's such a strong position, but then...

>>1621454
No it doesn't look ineffective, I am sure there are decent counters for it, but that can be said of most techniques.

Amdur has said that simply sliding the sword down the pole arms shaft is hard to do without exposing yourself to openings, but this is a little different

>>1613921
The last video I posted is of a very different branch, an early offshoot, most look similar to the first two, the target of the second cut diverted to the blade to make the double strike you see.

The kata was actually preserved in alot of the styles that came from the shinkage ryu. even jigen ryu has their own version of empi no tachi.

There is a video of their version somewhere but I cant find it right now

As a HEMA dude I find their techniques on sword versus Polaris very informative.
Please keep these threads alive, they're pretty sweet.

what happened to the hema gen?

>>1622730
My point was that it's quite peculiar, much more than just sliding down the shaft and it's hard to realize how compromised you are up until the point that you're too compromise to either parry or dodge efficiently. It's really subtler than it (could) appears, I guess it's easier to see as a third party, where you are on the receiving end of it, it's fairly confusing, and thus effective.

I would certainly agree that simply sliding down usually only ends in a double hit, while the hashikakaru is more about being protected than anything.

>>1626158
>even jigen ryu has their own version of empi no tachi.
Wait Jigen-ryu comes from Shinkage-ryu ? I thought the founder studied TSKSR (now that doesn't mean he didn't studied both); I'm confused now.

>>1627845
Got down, not enough replies, wasn't re-established. The "polish sabre" thread was the hema thread substitute but even this one got down, dire times for non-wrestlers I suppose.

>>1628012
>Wait Jigen-ryu comes from Shinkage-ryu ? I thought the founder studied TSKSR (now that doesn't mean he didn't studied both); I'm confused now.

There are several different Jigen ryu. Tenshinsho Jigen ryu comes from KSR. Then the founder of Jigen ryu hyoho studied Tenshinsho Jigen ryu and Taisha ryu.

http://www.jigen-ryu.com/index_e.html

according to an old thread of ebudo the founder studied Taisha ryu. apparently they made some changes, particularly to the shidachi side

So it would go Shinkage ryu- Taisha ryu- Jigen ryu hyoho.

>>1628012
>Wait Jigen-ryu comes from Shinkage-ryu ?
Nevermind, I'd forgot the Taisha-ryu connection...

Empi is apparently the first kata (either one technique or a set, not so sure) in Jigen-ryu, don't know if it's a descendant of Shinkage-ryu or if another kata serves the same purpose with a different name. Then again "Empi" is a pretty generic name, that is found in many schools with or without any connections between each other (there is a kata with that name in TSKSR, but it's a gokui no naginata).

>>1626158
>>1628385
I'm pretty sure Empi is the first kata they usually show in embu, after tategi-uchi (they being Jigen-ryu hyoho, not Yakumaru Jigen-ryu). Well, as in Shinkage-ryu, it's more like a series of kata.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ht2chIJGBM&t=4m30s

After you see it a few times, you start to see similiarities, but it's very different in execution. What gave it away for me for the first time was when they both drop to their knees at the end (around 5:20). Other lines of Shinkage-ryu finish it like that too, whereas Yagyu Shinkage-ryu does the sword throwing thing.

Taisha-ryu has Empi too, so I'm pretty sure it's the same, which is kinda peculiar. Usually descendant ryu (not just different ha) maintain things like terminology, gokui and individual techniques but not really complete kata sets from their parents.