Question for animal behaviorists, do animals know when they are

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I understand that some animals know they are playing like dolphin bros and monkeys, but I am more curious about cats in particular and other domesticated animals.

Here's another pic of my pudding pie.

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>>2369154

Only my theory: even in humans, play is practice.

I have a theory about cats in particular as it regards what we would call mental illness. In truth, most mental illness is learned in humans and an adaptation. A kid who learns to function in a dysfunctional family does function until the family is no longer the environment. Then the hardwired adaptation becomes a problem.

Look at cat behavior. They chase things that arent there. As kittens, it seems clear that they have an overactive imagination. We could be talking about human kids. The things we call illness in adults are a natural part of development in youth.

I have a theory that cats are quite literally psychotic even into adulthood. They are constantly in game mode. These apparent hallucinations actually add to survival because they keep the reflexes sharp by way of simulation. Nature doesnt seem to care too much about our sense of normal, and even if it were objectively possible, it cant force a creature to know fantasy from reality; everything is a best guess on the individual at every moment. Camouflage itself relies on this variable. Things are not always as they appear, and we have to make a decision on how to react anyways.

>>2369169
So they are psychopaths, but are they psychopaths that recognize the string isn't a live animal?

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>>2369175

Thats a good question, because it defines awareness. In such a state, they may not know, or know and not care. It would be worth research.

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>>2369182
Yep it's an interesting question, hopefully some animal behaviorist has some type of a response.

That's a great gif, you have earned a pic of one of my other honey hams!

yes, considering most cats will try to get you to play with them. at least all of mine do. most will realize it's not a real live animal to kill and that you're controlling the toy's movement

>>2369169
i want whatever drugs you're on

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>>2369175

I can't give you a solid yes/no because I am not learned in this topic, nor a cat. And if I were a cat, I might have motives to lie anyways.

Let me just suggest this: whenever I come across puzzling animal behavior where, to understand what its motives are, I have to estimate awareness, I do this, the babby test.

I ask myself if a human baby would know something, and then assume the animal is less aware than that.

Infants dont appear to make a distinction between a balloon floating away and escaping with intent. This sort of confusion is what things like scarecrows are based on.

Would a human baby distinguish between a string bouncing and a playful, mischievous worm dancing. I dont think so.

Im sorry I dont have an answer. But its something to think about, maybe a tool you can use.

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>>2369185

lel ty

>>2369187
But couldn't they just associate "big, bald cat on two legs" w/ animal hunting time (aka play)?

Cats can connect humans w/ food, comfort, companionship, etc. so maybe they just associate us with there hunting instincts as well?

>>2369200
def something to think about.

>>2369154
My cat knows I'm playing with him. It's just a fun illusion. If I half-ass it, or otherwise don't wave the toy or whatever around right he gives me a dismissive look as though I'm being a fucking asshole for ruining it. In comparison to when he's hunting a mouse, it's definitely play-mode (practice mode) and we both know it. When he's hunting for real, the kill switch gets flipped and it's savage as fuck. Love having a cat that does his job.

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>>2369233

Here's a supposition:

We can't be sure when a cat *knows* something isn't real and engages in non-aggressive attack, that is 'play'.

But I think we can say that a cat knows *that* some things are not legitimate threats/quarry and engages them anyways.

In other words, it has a concept *of* play even if we might not know *when* that is, and that seems relevant. Plus, it speaks to the cat's perception of a situation and its state of mind.

Sometimes this leads to unfortunate misunderstandings, such as when you are playing with a kitten and it becomes so frenzied in the excitement that it forgets to hold back. We see this in humans also, where players will seriously attack each other, forgetting its simply a game.

So it could vary for any given incident and context, depending on how the cat interprets it. For example, perhaps the first time it is genuinely unsure and aggressively attacks something. Then it learns there is no threat/quarry, and modifies its emotional drive to simple 'play'. Its the same stimuli in both cases, but the factor of experience changes the way the cat interprets the event.

There are many factors, such as emotional state, perhaps driven by hunger and perceived/presumed reward. A cat may try to eat a feather it just caught and yet simply toy with a dying mouse.

That a cat can *distinguish* play is perhaps more substantial than *when* it decides an engagement is not real.

>>2369249
Which is why I never use my hands or any other non-designated toy object to engage in play. This is very stupid as it can lead the animal to confusion about the distinction between play aggression and sincere aggression.

And no, you can't really know what the cat is thinking, but based on my observations of his behavior and body language, I made a pretty reasonable assumption that he knows when I wave around the bird/mouse toy attached to a stick with a string is play activity. When I stop moving it in a prey-like manner he breaks focus with it, looks up at the machination (the stick), then at me, whereas he otherwise appears to willfully ignore the man behind the curtain.

I'm sure it's all my doing, having taught him to make this cognitive distinction between a real threat and a pretend one with years of reinforcement. Besides the obvious difference between a toy and a real prey animal. Kittens or adult animals who have never seen a live prey animal would probably get confused more often.

There's an instinctual aspect that I never taught the cat. After every few times I let him catch the toy, he goes and eats a few bites of food. I never rewarded or associated toy play with food. I think you want to use instinctual behaviors to your advantage when shaping animal behaviors for your own and its physical and mental health. I find it pretty funny when the behavioral training is too much of a two-way street. Some people are so fucking dumb that they get trained by their pet (to their dismay).

I dunno. I'm not a shrink or an animal behaviorist. I can clicker train cats though, and teach them how to solve frustrating cat puzzles. We both seem to find it entertaining.

Yes, in some sense they know that they are playing and that it's not the same as seriously hunting.

It IS based on instincts like prey drive and such, but for instance your cat is probably aware that you are moving the string and that it's not a real live animal. It's just a moving object and that triggers their prey drive, so they find it fun/enjoyable to chase and play with it.

Same for a dog playing fetch. Prey drive is what drives them to chase the moving object, but they aren't doing it because they think they are hunting/trying to kill something for food. They are just doing it because their instincts make it enjoyable to chase. It's a fun game.

They know it isn't a "real" hunting scenario. See: cat getting excited when they see you pick up a toy; dog bringing a toy to you to instigate a game of fetch.

Although play behaviors are often analogous to hunting/fighting behaviors, there is generally a clear, observable difference between play and serious action. Play "fighting" in dogs, for instance, is gentler and their body language is looser/wiggly/less serious. Play "hunting" also usually comes with playful, frolicking body language.

In other words: play behaviors are usually based on other things, but play is its own thing with various benefits--it's no secret why animals do it. In many species, play is useful because it helps young animals "practice" behaviors that would later be used for hunting or fighting. Play is also mentally engaging and a healthy way of destressing, and a good way of bonding/strengthening bonds in social animals.