What's /an/'s opinion of Cesar Millan? Do you think

>>2323758
I wish we'd stop having these threads all the time. I feel like there's always a new one made just the day after the previous one 404d.

>>2323847
Care to link the last one? There are none in the catalog or archive.

>>2323885
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=an+archieve+4chan

>>2323758
You shouldn't really judge a training method off "well i can't find as many videos of it so it must not be good enough"
https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Dominance_Position_Statement_download-10-3-14.pdf

>>2323895
fuck off with googling shit for everyone

it's an old, condescending meme and destroys the point of discussion boards

>>2323926
>an old, condescending meme and destroys the point of discussion boards
There are a lot of new people coming to this board who just don't know that there are better options than Milans methods.
Discussing this on an animal and nature forum should be perfectly acceptable.
If you want to bitch about anything there are plenty of cat/dog hate troll threads started daily that serve no purpose other than causing drama, start with those.

>>2323926
This shitty thread that has been done 3 million times just pushed one (potencially good) thread to death because OP couldn't google it.
With your argument we might as well spam the board with other stupid questions because it may generate discussion.

>>2323909
I can see how you could get that from the way I phrased it but that's not what I meant. I was just pointing out that I've never seen a positive trainer attempt to use those methods on a highly aggressive dog.

I think positive training is best for an average dog, where the biggest behaviour problems are stealing food off counters and barking at dogs on walks. I have serious doubts about those methods on a dog that's likely to turn its aggression towards its owner if it can't reach another dog/person it's lunging at.

>>2323758
My parents punched, hit, yelled at, and otherwise abused out dog for resource guarding for years. She only got worse and more aggressive. Obviously, if something is afraid that you're going to hurt it and take its stuff, hurting it and taking its stuff isn't going to change anything. I don't recall what it's called, but there was a pretty good video of kikopup working on resource guarding (not quite aggression, but it's more like what you're talking about) in their pup.
Even if you think your dog needs to "respect" you, the way to achieve that isn't by hurting it and dominating it. Would you respect somebody who took your stuff, punched you, scared you, and screamed at you? Probably not.

>>2323931
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hNVOmqjbcY
This is as trustable as Cesar Milan but there you go. They make an aggressive "pitbull" docile.
If you don't want to watch that unecessary drama i'll sum it up.
>dogs bites the shit out of everything
>the owner can't even clean the place
>the owner keeps enforcing violent behaviour without realising
>they find out the dog goes beserk against hand and feet probably due to abuse
>they use a glove with bad tasting liquid inside as a fake hand
>they use positive reinforcement licking the hand and negative to biting the hand
>dog is ok according to the show

You are using confirmation bias to make your opinion.

>>2323936
>You are using confirmation bias to make your opinion.

Literally where? I can't consider both sides to have pros and cons?

>>2323758
Milan's methods are fucking great on camera. It is suspenseful, exhilarating, interesting, and some results always happens quickly, like 15 min to an hour (of course they always cut it down). His methods are loosely based off of wolf behavior, which viewers can relate to (who hasn't heard of a wolf pack before?) And it makes their dogs seem a little more bad ass being compared to wolves.

However, on a training scale, his methods are pretty shitty. He gets results quick compared to other training methods, but they are often out of fear, so dogs will often regress after Milan leaves, or they need to be pushed with that same fear. Milan also seems to be confused about dog language. I've seen him saw urinating/defecating while being 'alpha rolled' is a sign of submission, when in reality it's more likely a sign of fear. His whole gimmick is pushing dogs until they break, but the problem with that is tomorrow morning you will have to do it all over again, while also making your dog fearful of you. It's a way to train, just not an effective way to train. When he goes back a year later to revisit, many of the owners couldn't keep up with a 15 minute dangerous battle at every feeding. He also takes few to no precautions which I have an issue with. It makes me feel as though he wants something bad to happen.

TL;DR Milan's methods are great for entertainment but really shouldn't be used. there are many other better trainers and training methods

>>2323948
I would consider Victoria Stillwell to be much better as far as training goes, but her show is dull as fuck. Unfortunately the best dog trainers don't have shows, because nothing crazy exciting happens. Kikopup is good for absolute beginners who need to learn how to train basics. I love Tyler Muto, but he's a little more in depth. He's more for dogs with a behavioral problem, not just how to house train my puppy. You have to be careful though, there are a TON of crazy dog trainers out there, from people who don't believe you can ever raise your voice to a dog to those who spit in dog's mouths every day to assert dominance.

Dominance theory training has long since been debunked, which is a whole other post in itself. However positive reinforcement training is also misleading; they use more quadrants in Operant conditioning than just positive reinforcement. Obviously you don't want to hit your dog, but some people that use positive reinforcement training believe anything negative, like stop walking when a dog pulls on a leash, is abuse. You have to find a happy medium

>>2323952
I got kicked out of a puppy obedience class last year because I yanked the leash when my puppy tried to kill a bird that got too close.

All the other trainers who offer classes insist all dogs should wear prong or ecollars while training.

Why the hell is balanced training so rare? You don't need to beat your dog but small corrections aren't likely to cause anxiety unless the dog is already very sensitive and fearful.

>>2323930
>just pushed one (potencially good) thread to death
Nigga this board is slow as shit. If a good thread got pushed off it's because it sat on the back page for a week with nobody commenting, so how fucking good could it be?
It's an animal and nature board, Milan is relevant. If the thread bothers you that much then hide it. Again if you want to complain about worthless threads bumping others off then start with the troll threads or any of the unnecessary generals.

Not sure if this is the best thread to ask this but how would I go about fixing my dogs aggression to fearful dogs?

She gets along fine with friendly, confident dogs but if another dog starts yelping or cowers, she will attack. She's done this ever since she was a young puppy, though her aggression obviously got more intense as she got older (she's 8 months at the moment). I asked a trainer and they just told me to only introduce her to dogs while on leash. So basically just avoid the problem rather than fix it.

Which is fine in theory but not practical forever. A few weeks ago we were at the vet and some idiot let his puppy into the clinic off leash. It bounded over to my dog, got started when she turned to sniff it then panic when it realized it backed itself into a corner. If I hadn't had her on a short leash I know she would have killed it.

Positive or negative, is this a fixable problem?

>>2323973
I don't think they were trying to get you to keep it on a leash forever. I think it was more during the training to make sure your dog doesn't kill other dogs

>>2323973
Negative, introduce negative stimuli when she displays aggression until there little to no aggression. Then reward calm behavior.

Find a friend with a fearful dog and start training. You should also work more on socialization.

>>2323973
muzzle her for your own protection until you get this sorted out

>>2323977
That's kinda what I was thinking but I don't know where this aggression stems from. I considered a shock collar but I heard if the aggression stems from her own insecurities it could make it worse.
Though the thing about fearful dogs is that they are usually raised by overprotective owners. I don't think many of them would allow me to use their dogs as a training tool. My dog's met all my friends dogs and gets along with all of them.

>>2323978
Yeah, that's really what I'm worried about. I don't want her to wear a muzzle for life. But no ones really given me a way to sort this out.
A fearful dog isn't likely to approach us if it's off leash. Most of the issues come up because people try to drag their scared dogs past us, whether the dog is scared of strangers or other dogs doesn't matter to my dog.

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>>2323758
Here's the issue I see with the show: the dogs aren't NEARLY as far gone as they are portrayed. Super aggressive dogs tend to be owned by people that don't give a shit about their dogs or are doing some illegal stuff, so they don't want or care to show their face on TV.

The people on the show or cam hogs with moderate dog issues. They give a big sob story cause thats the ticket to get on tv. Then the show gets the right shots to make the dog look like a viscous monster that is magically tamed by Cesar's curious powers.

The training happens to rapidly to be true. A highly aggressive dog isn't going to be totally obedient to Cesar in the first 5 minutes of meeting him. It takes days, months, hell years for agrression.

They also don't show the aftermath. They dog seems super nice after a week so they pack up and leave before it rebounds. Privacy disclosure ensures family can't come out afterwards and say what all is happening.

TLDR: is dominance training the only cure for too far gone dogs? Idk, but it's not provable through Cesar because he doesn't train too far gone dogs and doesn't show the full details.

Suggestions on dealing with extreme reactivity?

>dog sees squirrel
>lunges full force against leash
>bork bork bork

>dog hears loud disease engine, lawn mower, motorcycle, etc
>lunges full force
>bork bork bork

>dog sees other dog
>digs in
>stares
>after a certain distance, bork bork bork

I am seeing an animal behaviorist in a few weeks and will probably get him prozac so he is calm enough to train (avoiding his triggers is just not an option because there are so many), but curious what anon would recommend.

>>2324027
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-VY_H_TG_Y

Try this method. It worked with my dog and small fluffy animals.

>Do you think his methods work?
Cesar intentionally sets dogs up for failure and then "corrects" them, rather than just teaching the dogs what he wants them to do. He doesn't really train them, he just floods them and causes them to shut down.

>There aren't many videos of rehabilitation of highly aggressive dogs through positive reinforcement, and the ones that are on youtube never seem to be as aggressive as the dogs Cesar has on his shows
The dogs Cesar "works with" seeming more aggressive is an illusion. It is because Cesar intentionally brings the dogs over threshold makes them react on purpose, because that makes for more dramatic TV, so the audience can see what a "big difference" between before and after. With positive trainers, their goal is to stay UNDER threshold in order to prevent the dog from reacting so they can counter-condition/teach the desired behaviors instead. You're not supposed to set the dog off on purpose.

>most positive videos work on fear aggression while Caser focuses on possession and dominance aggression
Wrong again. Most cases in both are dogs with fear aggression/reactivity. Cesar just frames these issues as "dominance aggression" instead because he doesn't understand dogs. Anyone with a solid understanding of dog behavior can see that many (most) of the "aggressive" dogs he works with are reacting out of fear/insecurity.

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It says at the start of every episode, in big glaring fonts, NOT to try the show's methods at home. Even on the show he mostly works with heavily damaged dogs. Why the fuck people keep harping on about whether these methods are effective for training their incontinent chihuahua to piss outside is beyond me.

>>2324366
Because if the whole "dominance theory" thing he pushes so hard, it would work on all dogs.

>>2324371
*pushes so hard was actually true, it would work on all

Scam artist, has spread many cancerous ideas that have since disseminated through modern society.

So how are you meant to fix aggression with positive training?

>>2324468
Address the underlying cause. Good management, counter-conditioning, and teaching alternative (appropriate) behaviors to replace bad ones.

>>2323941
>i keep finding many videos of "dominance training" on aggressive dogs
>that means it must be effective
>i keep not finding videos on "positive training"
>that means it must not be effective

>>2323967
>it wasn't popular so that means it wasn't good
This board is slow and should be slower but it has many useless threads.
99% of trolls, shitposts and useless threads are animals and nature too.
>i can't complain about a thread if there are worse threads in the catalog

What would this guy's methods be considered? He doesn't fall for the dominance meme but he doesn't use positive reinforcement only training. He does a ton of work with aggressive dogs, and some stranger aggressive dogs
https://youtu.be/73qT5Z03VMw

>>2324022
I concur, in the show you can see progress is forced. He forces a dog into a car, he forces a dog to meet 20-30 dogs at a time, he forces a dog to be touched. This is called 'flooding', when you force a dog to be subjected to one or many of it's fears all at once. This tends to result in the dog lashing out for a while, but if you keep at it the stress generally reaches a tipping point like it would in humans, and they just shut down. This is seen on his show as submission. Have you ever had a nightmare where you just know you're going to die so you just close your eyes and accept it? That's what shutting down is like.

I've seen him take care of dumb as fuck cases, like the one where the owners complained their fucking BEAGLE sniffs too much. They were going to bring this little beagle puppy to the pound because it fucking sniffs things. If you didn't want a dog to sniff shit, don't get a mother fucking scent hound. The worst cases I see him handle are dog aggressive dogs and honestly every one I see on the show he ends up taking home permanently.

>>2324027
Is this all done on a leash, through a fence, through a window, or what? What's the context of the behavior?

>>2324366
Because it doesn't work for the dogs on the show. His show is purely entertainment reality TV, not a show for dog training.

>>2324563
>like the one where the owners complained their fucking BEAGLE sniffs too much
It's impossible to ask a dog to be stable when the owner isn't. Those fucking shows would have many more "reformed" dogs if they used psychological treatment on the owners and left the dogs be.

>>2324530
Just shut the fuck up already. Cesar Millan threads belong on /an/ and they are not going anywhere no matter how much you bitch and moan about them.

>>2324616
The same is true for CAW threads, does it mean you don't allow me to complain about them?
Do i have to send you an e-mail before posting and wait for your approval?

>>2324620
No, just don't be surprised when you make a post complaining about something stupid and someone calls you out on it.
Let's not forget you are the one trying to say certain threads don't belong on /an/ dipshit, as if your opinion matters in the slightest.

>>2324623
>implying i'm surprised someone got mad because i told someone else(?) to google something
>implying you are not complaning about something even more stupid
>implying i said anything about this thread not belonging to /an/
>implying your opinion matters any more than mine

>>2324627
If you are not the anon I quoted, and was talking too, then why the fuck did you respond?
It's a rhetorical question BTW, I already know the reason is because you are such an insufferable cunt.

>>2324628
>implying i'm not me
>implying you are not me
You are just cursing at the mirror.

>>2324348
I work at a kennel/boarding facility. Almost all of the aggressive dogs are extremely fearful, with the exception of one giant mastiff mix who expressed no insecurity or fear, was confident and even friendly at times, then would suddenly lunge at and really go after some person.
I remember describing him to my bosses as "not like the normal aggressive where he's scared and protective, but like the "I want to kill you" sort of aggression".
We ended up refusing him for training and recommended the owners keep him muzzled whenever he was out/around people, or have him PTS.

>>2324754

I wonder if you can get sociopathic or psychopathic dogs (and other animals), like how some humans are just born full on fucking insane.

>>2324791
This is the only thing I can imagine. He'd been well socialized even. They regularly took him to a daycare type facility and he was fine for quite a while, then suddenly lunged after one of the attendants. I always looked at him with the thought that if he got ahold of someone, he would be the sort of latch his head and shake with the intend to kill, not just ward off.
He was fine to me though. He seemed selective about who he disliked.

>>2324563
Yea, the situations are always laughably trivial. "My dog doesn't like my aunt's twice removed cousin's friend's coworker's dog. We can never visit her with our dog and it's tearing this family apart. We think euthanasia might be the only option."

I went through the comments of various dog training videos for inappropriate play and there were so many comments like "Don't listen to this guys advice, he said that multiple dogs creates a pack mentality!" "Bawww, dominance theory doesn't exist there is no such thing as a dominant or submissive dog!!!1!"

Do these retards not understand dogs are social animals therefore have a hierarchy system? Even if dogs don't understand a human trying to "dominate" them, they certainly understand another dogs intentions.

Just because a trainer says it's the owners job to act as a leader and intervene if dog play gets out of hand, the peta-tier retards always freak out over the mention of a "pack" and disregard everything else.

>>2325046
Dogs don't have a hierarchy system. One dog you might see a day growl and bark at the others to get food first will let another do it the next, and then he'd let others first dibs on water or toys.

>>2323977
This whole thread is a bit infuriating but this takes the retardation cake, do NOT do what this anon suggested. Positive punishment (which he referred to as "introducing an aversive stimulus") only creates more aggression. Punishing aggression is like fighting fire with fire it only exacerbates the problem not fixes it. And then if you reward calmness after that all you're doing is counterconditioning the aversive so basically it will be seen as a good thing. Basically the first part of his suggestion is completely bass ackwards don't do this OP