I am ugly. I've been more or less collecting evidence for

...cont

#4 looks more and more like my only solution to inner peace. I dont need to look like brad pit, I just need to NOT look like michael berryman.

So heres my real conundrum: Should I spend $10-15k and pay a doctor to fuck up my face, get real life-jeopardizing surgery, just so I dont have to get rejected? I do think my face being nicer would extend to many facets of my life, other than with women so its not JUST for getting a partner. But I'm a mid-west guy from a mid-west family with a mid-west mindset and EVERYONE I KNOW (family mostly) will see my getting my face fixed as some kind of sad, extreme try-hard move... the try-hardiest that you can do maybe.

Should I care? Should I just do what makes me feel good?

Is cosmetic surgery just way too drastic for this kind of problem?

>>18616384
How do I become an online master dated? I want that!

>>18616384
>>18616677
Forgot to answer your question. Just work out if you're really that ugly. Also try being boyishly cute. You can be attractive even if you're ugly as guy. Not possible as a woman.
So how did you get so good at online dating and what sites do you use?

Post face
Hard to judge if surgery is necessary through words

>>18616384
What the fuck, dude? Then quit trying to get with 8's! If you're that fuckin great lower your looks-expectations and find a girl that'll actually appreciate you

>>18616384
what kind of a question is this?

>>18616384
If you have to have 8s you're either gonna get a cheated on and/or get a basket case with years of baggage from getting used by Chads

>>18616677
>>18616689
>work out
i already do. im about as fit as a guy can get without looking like i'm a full on gym rat. passed 1/2/3/4pl8 for my main 4 long ago

>how 2 online date
its kind of formulaic. I use only 4 or 5 pics, 2 have people, 1 is mostly my face, 2 have to show muscle/fitness, 1 has to show something of value (car/motorcycle/etc). Nothing can look staged, as to be candid like someone else took it of you in action. For me, I have to get all this lined up PLUS I have to have good lighting and angles that help hide my bad features

which ones to use? Right now i'm on bumble, happn, tinder and match, the latter two being 80% of the action. I found that tinder superlikes are excellent - i got tinder plus and the 5 supers/day means I only superlike anyone. I have about a 20% hit rate, ie usually every day I get a match, sometimes two. Superlikes almost always talk to you.
**key point**
dont waste your money on superlikes if you cant hold coversation.

your messages (no matter the medium/site/app) need to be clever, so dont ask about anything she put in her profile cuz everyone asks the same shit. I usually look for something in the b.g. of her photos make a funny comment on, or i dunno... its gotta be funny. You need to make her laugh within 2 or 3 message volleys.

After that, just mirror her - mirror her message cadence, her amount of swearing, her number of questions... and balance things like, let her be the 1st to message you that day, then be the 1st the next day... if she says good night, say it too. if she doesnt, dont. This way, nothing is weird about you since you just do what she does. (dont mimic her 100% though, just identify what shes doing and then basically/generally do it)

After that.... I ask for a number after about 30 messages back and forth, or 3 days. once i have the number, set up an easy date - 2hrs max. coffee with an activity or something (walk/board games). only hug. second date, plan a place to mack on her, and so on

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>>18616691
see pic

two upper left are what i feel like i usually look like in real life. bottom left is 'best conditions' i guess (this is one i use for profile)

Right two I just kind of made those, middle is me from profile view, right most is same pic but slightly shopp'd to kinda see what cosmetic surgery might do for me. thoughts?

>>18616693
bro i would love to be attracted to 4s and 5s but I just cant. So I've spent a lot of effort trying to bring myself up. this whole problem stems from me feeling like i've maxed out and its not good enough. so now its like... do I take drastic steps or say i've done all I can? (bear in mind, this isnt just for women or whatever, this is for general self esteem and bettering my life all around)

>>18616731
i felt like i was pretty thorough in my details. its a question if its worth it to take drastic steps for the sake of my feeling of place in the world or live with what i've got.

>>18617044

Not >>18616677, but thanks for that. It corroborates and summarizes what I've heard over the years about online dating.

>>18617093
Wtf dude you're not even ugly. You're average. Maybe it's the tactical picture-taking.. But as it stands your dilemma is entirely caused by your not wanting to go for 5-6's. And that's entirely your own fault.

You're an intelligent guy; you should have heard this by now: never deviate more than 2 points from your own.

>>18617093
you're not bad at all. Have you considered changing up your methods? I feel like a guy like you could get a hottie with some game. Not "PUA" bullshit, but just a slight adjustment to your method.

>>18617093
dumbass

>>18616384
2. I went for 2 and it worked.

And no, I'm not rich

>>18617093
Idk you look fine other than your lack of chin. Chin surgery isn't too life threatening right?

>>18617093
your expressions seems a little too much like that of a nu male cuck. you are not a chad of course, but i think if you were to have a more serious standard face you would start doing better
total speculation tho

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>>18617490
>caused by your not wanting to go for 5-6's
i definitely wont go after 5s.... 6s I do generally and 7s for sure but for some reason, these girls are way less likely to talk or go out with me. I have no idea what I'm doing that causes this, I message 7s the same way i message anyone else.

I've noticed this with an age thing too... I would prefer to date someone like 27-29 but i keep attracting like 24/25/26 or 33+... its kind of uncommon to be inside that zone. I have no clue why

>>18617519
>methods
I would be open to this but adjustment seems hard, I'd need someone to really study what I'm doing and then go from there. Don't know how this would ever be accomplished.

>>18617520
no u

>>18617659
>mfw keep doing 2

>>18617925
No I dont think so but any surgery is.

>>18617948
>nu male cuck
maybe onto something here? a theory worth exploring.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To anyone saying youre not that bad, you are drunk if you dont think my top left pic is atrocious. Question is, am I misrepresenting myself with good photos? Could that be whats happening?

I mean, I guess it could be my personality but I haven't felt I have a problem in real life or my day-to-day, I have friends and seem to get along ok.

>>18617966
nu male theory guy here
you are not ugly as in goblin ugly that makes you gag. you just lack impact from what i see. from what you said we can assume you are good at talking so that gives you your chance with girls, but probably cant give any masculine vibe to them. smiling is good but with a baby face the results are not always good. not saying you have to larp as terminator from now on, but an always smiling face radiates beta energy
just think when you know someone new: if he's always smiling you immediatly feel at ease, while if he's serious you stay a little on guard about what you do and say. imho that creates interest in women, but you probably can try out all this stuff by yourself, you seem far from dumb

Plastic surgery

>>18617966

Not >>18617519 but:

I recommend the two best post-pua works: Models by Mark Manson, and The Natural by RSDMax. I say 'post-pua' because while being borne from the pua movement, their philosophies have moved passed it; evolved, into something better and healthier.

You seem to have some baseline level of game - that is, the force is strong with you. With real training you could possibly become quite successful.

>>18616384
>>18617966
>>18616384
My man, maybe stop using fucking scales to determine the worth of women. Stop being such a huge faggot. That's fucking middle-school tier and speaks volumes about how superficial you are. If you didn't catch it yet: how you see others just reflects how poorly you view yourself, which is poorly.
Yes, I'm a guy and you bet I like hot girls but if I'd rate every attractive girl I dated before we actually dated I'd have never seen her naked because I'd be too intimidated by how hot she is and how average and weird I look ( yeah, I look weird)

>>18618060
as said in the book Models, you're investing so much into women just because they're hot. You gotta have something you're passionate about. Think about it: why would super hot girls dig the starving, out-there artist? It's not because he's high status or whatever bullshit pua says: it's cause he's so passionate about something other than sticking his dick inside every hot girl
>tl; dr get a life before worrying whom to spend it with

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Pictures are weird, I took these on the same day. I've had pretty girlfriends who thought I was better looking than them while I kept thinking I need a facelift. Who cares

>>18618506
why dont you let your hair grow?

>>18617973
Maybe its not ugly so much as punchable? Or, not demanding of respect. I'm not sure what it is really but there is something definitely up.

>radiate beta energy
I dont, but my face does. Its the lack of jaw I think. I've read a number of things by now that suggest people with weak jaws are generally considered unintelligent, untrustworthy, etc. Honestly I've always felt like its like that for me - like, if I am into something "cool" its not cool for me to be into it; if I am, its me being a tryhard.
(this is a good example where my desire for a better face has nothing to do with women, but is more of an anyone-in-general angle)

>>18618060
I bought Mystery's 1st book like 12 yrs ago and after reading it, some parts made sense and were applicable but on the whole, its such a shit way to deal with people and honestly I want nothing to do with "gaming". Theory being, if I have to game a chick into liking me, fuck her she should like me regardless because on paper I'm fucking awesome. But then again, everyone (me included) is shallow as fuck nowadays and I can't blame anyone for that.

>>18618463
>dont use scales
I (and everyone) use scales because its a simple way to get across what kind of attention a certain woman gets. 9s get hit on 24/7/365, Its known - I dont need to explain it. Its way fuckin easier than explaining to you in detail what she looks like or how much society values her.

Scales dont mean shit IRL and I wouldn't let it affect my decisions, but I'm a fit guy and actually am INTO fitness, so if I date someone she better be into it too. Its sort of a given a chick that is fit is at least a 6, probably a 7. Did I really do myself a disservice by acknowledging that fact? I dont think so.

>>18618506
These pretty girlfriends, did you meet them through online services?

>>18617996
Nose, chin, jaw, all 3, or an hero?

>>18619813

>I bought Mystery's 1st book like 12 yrs ago and after reading it, some parts made sense and were applicable but on the whole, its such a shit way to deal with people and honestly I want nothing to do with "gaming".

Yeah.. You should read Models.
Just check out the first chapter or three, and see if it's something you want to bother reading. You don't really have much to lose at this point.

And yeah, The Natural. Same deal.

>>18619813
>Maybe its not ugly so much as punchable?
doesnt look like that, really just not straightly asking for respect. looks more of a way you smile and everything that about real facial features like jaw and others
try contacts and a change of hair too maybe

>>18617093
You don't really look ugly from those pics. You look like average dude. Even if you would be little below average I don't think all your dating experiences fall flat because of your looks.

Are you sure you might not have some awkward or even creepy behavior or just low self-esteem when you meet girls in real life? Maybe try some dating coach. Female one because I would think they would be better judges on why you might come of weird and maybe have some styling advice. And they can have a kind of fake date with you and then tell you what you are doing wrong or be in the next table looking while you are on your date.

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>>18619813
>did you meet them through online services?

Some of them but I live in an urban area where meeting people isn't difficult. I try to sell myself on things other than looks however, because girls find mutual interests more important. I'm more likely to get a date with an art student than a cleat chaser.