I was so bored that I agreed to have lunch with some mormon missionaries

>>18083495

i did the same last year, it was actually quite interesting.

first off i got two really cute ones, loved it, so innocent and sweet.

second off, you learn a lot about mormonism. its like a modern reboot of the bible that fills in gods origin story.

basically god wanted children but theres a council that governs god and it says hes not allowed to have perfect children, so he has to create innocent children and force them to live as humans in order to become perfect before entering heaven.

when he sent adam and eve to the garden of eden he gave them two rules
1) procreate
2) dont eat dat fruit

but the only way to learn how to procreate was to eat that fruit. he purposely set it up so that they'd fail because it was the only way to introduce sin into his children and allow the human race to exist, so we can learn and develop and become more like god before entering heaven to hang out.

there's some other plot holes they fill in, but it also raises more questions as you can imagine.

the biggest issue is they ask for certain moral commitments like 'CAN YOU PROMISE US THAT IF YOU FEEL THE TUG OF THE LORD YOU'LL GIVE IN' which is a set up to later insist that you're feeling the tug of the lord and need to give in.

they have separate services for men and women though so its interesting to meet some more wholesome men and talk about mens issues and actually bond in a nice setting as opposed to what non religious circles do which is mostly pit men against each other i feel.

they are pretty open minded depending on the community. i live in los angeles so they were like 'we have members who go out and smoke pot every week, come in and ask for forgiveness, then go do it again, everyone sins its nbd just don't denounce god and dont kill'.

though in their rules they say you're not even allowed to drink coffee.

>>18083495
Kek this happended to me at school, although i pretended to be christian and just wasted their time asking them a bunch of meme questions

>>18083504
i've read up a lot about mormonism after i initially met them

i think the biggest beef I have of their church was that:
1. they disapprove homosexuality / pre-marital sex
2. they disapprove drugs
3. they disapprove foul language

i'm less well-versed on the theological side of things though. I'll probably avoid talking about origins of god / sin and adam and eve. It just becomes a matter of literature / archaeological accuracy at that point in my opinion

>>18083519
>1. they disapprove homosexuality / pre-marital sex
>2. they disapprove drugs
>3. they disapprove foul language
That's literally any decent branch of Christianity, Mormons go farther in other ways but you don't mention that here.

>>18083521
it's my impression that mainstream christianity are more lenient on these things.

also on drugs: my point is that why include caffeine? because it's stimulating? there're also tons of others things that affect our mood / perception. are they suggesting to ban them all?

i can also bring up the ambiguities of the tithing system, though i'll need to read up more on that to substantiate my arguments

>>18083533
>there're also tons of others things that affect our mood / perception. are they suggesting to ban them all?
They're named after LSD, of course not.

:^)

>>18083519

>they disapprove of homosexuality / pre-marital sex

yeah, its a bummer, cuz im gay and id otherwise have kept going just to be a part of the very lovely community. you can get away with pre marital sex though everyone does. also note my drug reference.

>ill probably avoid talking about origins of god / sin and adam and eve

then dont go, cuz thats literally what they are there to talk about. the mormons are working off of a script, and they are supposed to teach you several 'lessons' in a specific order, and those are the first ones to get you interested in the literature. if you say 'nah lets not talk about that' they'll just get confused and leave or keep bringing it up. its literally the point of the meeting.

you dont agree to lunch with mormons to not talk about mormonism

>>18083533

>my point is that why include caffiene

im not sure if caffiene itself is an issue as im aware they do drink sodas.

hot beverages are actually against the rules, even non caffienated teas and hot coacoa is against the rules.

>christianity is more lenient on these things

well, like any branch it depends on the community. you are used to hardcore mormon communities but the majority of mormons are just like the majority of any other branch of christianity. they're casual believers hwo go to church but still live mostly modern lives. some might be more strictb ut like i said they got one guy who smokes weed every week, admits it in confession time and then repeats 52 times a year.

>>18083533
>also on drugs: my point is that why include caffeine?
It's not caffeine, but hot drinks. It's ok to drink soda.

>>18083547
>tfw accidentally leave your soda on the dashboard and have nothing to drink

>>18083539
how about I try and discredit Joseph Smith and their whole idea of prophets? also what kind of 'lessons' are you talking about?

>>18083544
from what i've read some websites go so far as to say sodas are discouraged

it's true though what you said, you get some shitty christians from time to time

i just don't believe the whole idea of faith, and somehow if you believe in God that makes you more moral than non-believers

>>18083548

warm drinks are not hot drinks. one thing they teach in mormonism is that intent really does matter. god doesn't get mad if someone else spiked the punch for instance.

god doesn't send you to hell for accidental manslaughter or what not. but oyu'd still go to hell if you paid someone else to kill for you.

unlike a lot of branches mormonism doesn't teach that its a rigid system, their entire branch is based on reinterpretation of old texts and as such they tend to be open minded as well.

their general rules are
>Dont denounce god
>don't murder someone (murder and kill are not the same thing according to them btw)

other than that god is very forgiving, he sent us here specifically to learn, and to learn you have to sin.

>>18083548
I honestly have no idea how the fuck it's all supposed to work. Tea is banned for the same reason apparently? I just know it's not caffeine itself, although it is frowned upon.

Also I still have to wonder if their magic underwear is still a thing.

>>18083553

lessons in the traditional sense, they want to teach oyu about various chapters that help capture interest.

>how about i try and discredit joseph smith

they're mormons, they already know what everyone else thinks about them. if you want to go be an asshole, please leave these boys alone. they're just qt innocent little mormon boys who are spending one year of their lives teaching people about mormonism. if you want to do this why not just walk into any church and interrupt the pastor seeing as your intent is to alienate people.

>>18083554
>murder and kill are not the same thing according to them btw
Is intent just the difference?

>>18083533
Tithing in the mormon.church is the same as Christians. It is 10% of your income. (Gross income or pretax income). Offerings or gifts is anything beyond that 10%.

>>18083553

>and somehow if you believe in god that makes you more moral than non-believers

thats still any branch, not mormonism, and mormons are actually very open minded to non believers.

why do you think they're so focused on conversion whereas other branches and churches literally dont give a fuck?

they are a generally nice people, no rules can define entire cultures, sure, so you get assholes especially hte more rural you go, but even without religion thats a rule of thumb.

if you want to go and just learn about something ,even without believing, then go.

but if you want to go and argue with someone, please dont waste these kids time.

its unfortunate how people on both sides can be closed minded.

im a gay atheist who manages a psychic for a living, and i was able to sit through several meetings and just have a fun conversation and learn about what really amounts to a different culture. its not different than going to asia nad learning about their religion and how it works.

>>18083560

kinda? many religions (not just mormonism) say you shouldn't murder but they still wage wars. self defense killings are not really murder either, no one is going to say 'wow you're going to hell for saving your wife' and if you look at the bible there's a lot of grey areas that god doesn't punish.

unlike christianity which if you read the bible itself says that its damn near impossible to get into heaven, mormonism insists that almost everyone gets into heaven.

according to them, god talks to you when you die and explains everything. at that time you can say 'yes, i believe, please let me into heaven' and he will take you there. if you say 'no i still refuse' then he destroys your soul, as he doens't want his children to suffer in a place like 'hell'

>>18083521
This. It's shows how much mainstream Christianity has become watered down that basic beliefs are now used as the extreme beliefs of Mormons. Mormons are extreme because of modern era polygomy, celestial underwear, and the fact Joseph Smith was a fraudster.

>>18083554
i also read something about how they're not allowed to question their leaders? is that also dependent on how lenient certain mormon communities are?

>>18083556
yeah i think i'll probably ask about that as well

>>18083558
>>18083564
sorry i'm not sure how i came across as close minded or an asshole. I hope that the fact that I'm open to them and want to hear them out is evidence that I just want to know how does someone can be so faithful and sacrifice some two years or more of their prime time in their lives and dedicate it to missionary work. I grew up reading missionary biographies so it's somewhat a personal matter to me. I'm also a psychology major.

>>18083561
i wasn't aware of that, thanks for clearing up. the Christian church i used to go to just do offerings. Tithing was not really practiced as far as i know.

>>18083590

>is that also dependent on how lenient certain mormon communities are?

you gotta remember that unless you're living in an entire mormon village, that what you do is pretty much your own business. its just like any other lifestyle with a religion, they only see oyu on sundays, more if you invest sure, but for most people its just a church thing.

every religion boils down to its community but how often do you 'question' your pastor? you dont really. if you disagree with something he says you just talk about it amongst peers at worst.

>>18083521
>>18083580
sorry. i realized i'm really ignorant on the subject and a hypocrite. i'm pretty sure they don't advocate polygamy anymore though

>>18083590

>sorry im not sure how i came across as close minded or an asshole

probably because you want to meet them and
>not talk about theology
>but instead discredit joseph smith

how is that not close minded or asshole? you are insisting on not talking about what they want to talk about and ONLY talk about what you want to talk about that you already know will upset them.

>>18083600
i find it problematic to talk about theology because arguments often rest on the very assumption that God exists. Which itself I find problematic.

and I also just want to hear what they think about their whole religion being founded based on the testimony of a single dude. I'm interested in whether they display any sort of cognitive dissonance, and how they react to it.

I'm not trying to deliberately upset them?

>>18083608

>i find it problematic to talk about theology because arguments often rest on the very assumption that god exists

not if you're actually interested in talking to them, but you're not. the fact taht you used the word 'argument' is your problem. they arent here to argue with you. they dont want to argue. they just want to share and teach.

its literally no different than going to history class and learning about the religion of an ancient culture, or hell its not different than going to asia and taking a tour of a Buddhist temple, or anything of that sort.

if you are not a religious or spiritual person then either
A) don't do it
or
B) do it to learn.

not to believe, not to change your mind, not to join the church, but just to leanr. look how much you learned about mormonism just from this thread. and its not just mormonism, there are so many religions and branches with so many interesting quirks and rules and whys and why nots and sins and back stories and contradictions, its amazing.

imagine if there was a version of 'avatar the last airbender' that didnt really focus on characters but rather just dived into the many many intricacies of that imaginary world.

you remind me of a friend i had. i brought up this interesting documentary called ' the future is wild' where a bunch of scientist got together and theorized what life would be like 300 million years in the future.

they used legit science, patterns in evolution, projection for weather phenomenon and what not to think about hwo would survive, who wouldn't, and what would happen.

cont.

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>>18083627

they believe that the turtle has the potential to become the largest land walking animal of all time, its called a toraton (pic relateD) look at it! its awesome.

but its hypothetical. it would be impossible to legitimately predict what would happen and while the toraton could totally happen it never will for a million reasons that we cannot predict.

so my friend dismissed it, argued it, instead of just enjoying potential and possibility and just something interesting, he rejected the entire conversation turning it into an argument because like with god it 'rests on the assumption that god exists'.

he missed the point of everything else you can learn even if you know that its an impossibility.

if anything learning about mormonism can teach you about why certain rules exist on an intellectual / history level.

leviticus in the bible has been dissected for its oddly specific rules, and it was concluded that the reason that part of the bible hates gays and pork is because of population issues. the christians were a TINY group at that time and because of that they couldn't afford NOT to be pregnant 100% of the time. they said masturbation was wrong, sex while on your period was wrong, gay sex was wrong etc because they needed every possible chance to have children and those didnt lead to children.

they also said no to pork because it had a horrible parasite that was hard to remove (one that is no longer found in american pork btw) and eaitng it would inevitably lead to your death.

there is so much to deconstruct and if you refuse to even listen to what their theology says, then you can't beign to understand it from a scientific / historian perspective.

the same way my friend will never be able to have a graet conversation about the history of evolution and what it can predict for the future just because the argument hinges on the idea of one specific animal that i wanted to bring up first.

This thread really has me interested in Mormonism, despite being a faget atheist. Sadly I DO have some dissonance going on between Mormonism being seemingly cool, and Joseph Smith being pretty questionable.

>>18083652

every religions leaders both old and new are pretty questionable anon. gays were targeted simply because they went against the baby making formula, as was masturbators.

we look at foreign religions like greek myhology as not bad but its literally about gods raping women and little boys in animal forms.

whoever came up with that shit is pretty twisted.

stop worrying about those origins from a moral standpoint cuz they literally dont fucking matter. if you want to be an elite atheist smarty pants you need to put aside your emotional attachment to religion and study it like you would any historical concept, attempting to understand it and learn as opposed to discredit.

>>18083627
>they used legit science
nope. it was pure fantasy. I bet you also thought your friend were being close minded because you thought mermaids were real when that documentary was on TV

>>18083627
okay sorry i see my errors. I really think we're on the same page here - i don't want to 'argue' with them and magically make them to abandon their religion (as i've stated in my OP...). I used the word 'argument' in a more socratic nature and i wanted to play the "devil's advocate" if you like. Where i'm from there was no such thing as a Mormon subculture, and it was my idea to meet with them face to face and see how it differs from chrisianity and other religions / belief systems

and also - not just about the idea that god exists - but also, i think, more about the literature and the Bible; of how it has been translated and transcribed over centuries, as well as how it's been interpreted in many, many different ways. What makes them think that their interpretation is better than others?

sometimes when I converse with other Christians they'd say "ooh ___ is not good, you shouldn't do it, because God says so"

and that frustrates me because of how their whole philosophy of ethics and morals is based upon God, while i was thinking more along the lines of how this affects human behaviour / social constructs

for example - swearing. I was brought up in a very conservative community and didn't swear until i was a late late teenager. However, studies have shown that swearing typically increases pain tolerance. It also has a profound impact on group dynamics.

So it all comes down to this - are we just advocating a certain set of morals or rules because of "that's how it's been done since antiquity" and continue to do it without questioning "what is exactly we're trying to do here"

>>18083666

do your research.

but i would argue someone is being closed minded if they refused to talk about that documentary at all, becuase even if its obviously fake it does examine how it would work if they were real, similar to the dragon documentary they did as well.

>>18083495
Ask them if they ever read Plato euthyphro. Suggest they read it.it disproves divine command theory or morality. Don't mention that, just say it was very enlightening and let them figure it out themselves

>>18083664
do you really not see the difference between a god turning into an animal and raping someone and a con artist barely out of living memory fabricating a holy book?

>>18083670

>So it all comes down to this - are we just advocating a certain set of morals or rules because of "that's how it's been done since antiquity" and continue to do it without questioning "what is exactly we're trying to do here"

well, yeah. and if thats something you want to explore id at least contact someone about asking these questions instead of going for young ass missionaries imo, especially if you just want to disregard talks of the theology. you got to remember this is their job, this is how they support themselves. they dont get paid per se, but their housing and such is provided for them to do this.

as for why they believe theirs is better, most are just born into it, and others followed their gut and found it. thats just the basis of faith in the world.

in the end you wont find much logic, thats why its religion and faith. if it was logical they'd all just disappear.

>>18083677

of course, but you act as if greek mythology (or any mythology) was never used by con artists or created by con artists.

we've already gone over how religion as a whole was used to create rules specific to its time, and then what we have no is a lot of leftover rules that dont apply.

again, the issue is emotional attachment. why do you WANT to go argue with people about it is the question?

if you want to it sfine but choosing young missionaries trying to do their service and move on with life is just kinda sad. especially if you're so passionate you can be doing this at the level that matters: the political level. thats where the con artists are really hurting people.

again, if someone wants to argue these points thy should, just not with missionaries, the same way missionaries wont bug you unless you actually want to talk to them about theology. they take no for an answer, trust me, ive clearly had my share of experiences with them.

so do them the same courtesy. ask them if they want to talk about the con artist aspects of their religion, if they say no, leave it be. and instead, put your efforts towards actually helping people negatively affected by religion.

BUT if you're not emotionally attached to religion but are curious about different religions and cultures, go meet some mormons and other types and see what they have to say.

thats all im saying here. you dont HAVE to be personally offended by mormonism.

>>18083688
i'm not sure why you're so keen to see me in a predatory light here, and the missionaries as 'victims'. To give some context i'm improbably the same age as those guys, if not younger. Also, as far as i know they came here voluntarily (and actually applied for this), and isn't clearing up misconceptions' part of their work as well? since they get such a bad rep?

and I'd argue what i was talking about before, about credibility and faith, is sort of theology-related no?

>>18083677
this is not me (OP) btw...

>>18083694

>>18083702

they are there as part of wokr specifically to talk about whats written in their book and what it means.

you in particular (not OP as he poitned out) going there to talk about credibility is not what they want to talk about. they already heard everything, they arent ignorant to it. and you know that you can't be convinced that it IS credible. you know what their answer already is: faith.

so yeah, its predatory to go there and just wave that in their face imo.

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>>18083547
you have to drop coffee but don't you get a second wife? according to what a morman guy was telling me when I was walking home.

>>18083778

>i think you're new

oh you're ever so wrong

>>18083725
>so yeah, its predatory to go there and just wave that in their face imo.
that's their whole job. it's no more predatory than having mud on your shoes and wiping it off on a doormat a janitor will have to clean eventually.

>>18083782
not sure why my comment is gone...

i'm just saying i still don't get the hostility you have towards me, and i'm implying that it's because you're attributing other posters' comments to me

>>18083797

in my opinion the oens ive talked to were sweet kind and understanding. once they applied pressure i backed out and it was fine.

do what you want, those are my opinions though

>>18083798

nope, just responding to your posts.

>>18083519
They also think black people are subhuman monsters. It was like 1972 before they even started pretending they thought black people were humans.

>>18083564
No. If they want to defend their religion, let them. If they cannot, they should not come knocking on my door. Do not expect me to simply listen and not try to persuade them just the same. If they want an echo chamber, they can stick to their own churches. If they want to ask why I won't believe, I can't lie to them. That is unfair and dishonest.

>enabling and acknowledging batshit insane cult because hur dur theyre really friendly!

god what a bunch of weak minded faggot cucks you all are.

anyways op, they are going to tell you theological difference between mormonism and mainstream christianity. they'll expect questions about the typical stereotypes about things like why no alcohol or caffeine and have thorough scripted response to said questions. they will try to get VERY personal with you and say things like "hey thats cool man" to literally everything you say as a way to make you feel welcome and that they are genuinely interested in you as a person. thats more less how they usually do things. agree to meeting them at your own risk op. they literally have a policy of attempting to contact you 3-5 times AFTER you tell them you arent interested

>>18083495
be like christians always used to hand out free lunch in church and then just pause for a long time.

>>18083539
>>they disapprove of homosexuality / pre-marital sex
fucking KEK. what and understatement. its literally scripture that this is DISALLOWED. its just another 'reinterpretation' of 'gods' priorities the religious leaders make when they realize they can't survive in the current moral landscape

>>18083495
Mormons are not christians.

They're pagans.

>>18085982
I mean they do believe in christ...