Anyone else here so irked by the concept of the "nice guy"

>>17673491

Let the weak know, they need to get themselves together, go back into their little apartments, look in the mirror, grip the razor, and CHA CHA CHA CHA MA MA MA MA FOH FOH FOH FOH cut the face off themselves, then go out with their crimson mask and rape.

It's being nice because you want something in return that is creepy

>>17673495

why else wd any1 fucking bther, tho?

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>>17673494
Strangely enough, I still prefer that to the clown thing that's been going on.

>>17673495
I know. But the fact niceness is at all associated with creepiness makes it too great a risk to take sometimes. I prefer just being neutral and unattached with people now.

>>17673491
Well ... you do realize that your perception gets shaped by bullshit from the interwebz, giving your age I have trouble understanding why looking beyond it is so hard.

Cut your online time I guess.

> But it's a non-binary difference with plenty of shading overlapping the two.
Not really. "Nice guy" is somebody who acts in a certain way (usually resembling nice) to gain something (usually sexual favors) once they realize that they won't get it, they stop the act. Besides, they are generally obviously passive aggressive.

>>17673495
it sucks that we've now gotten to the point that people like op are actively avoiding being nice to escape all that. chivalry is dead. and fuck head 'nice guys' killed it.

>>17673510
The fact they're being "nice" at all, even with the catch involved like a shitty insurance company, this gives them something in common with those who are genuinely, and sincerely, kind. When you do something sincerely generous, you're now put on the same plate as "nice guys" who do it as means of trading. That's one reason why being seen as nice is insulting, since you're now part of those "nice guys" who have ulterior motives.

>"You're a good guy anon."
>"Anon is so nice."

Makes me rage inside every time. Mostly because I take it as a sign of weakness.

>>17673491
most (not all, but most) people outside of 4chan generally do not confuse kindness and prudence or other qualities of a genuinely nice person with "nice-guy"-ism. sounds like this place is messing with your perceptions to the point where it's messing with your self-perception as well. time to take a break from this shithole or at least start mentally distancing yourself from the attitudes you see on here. I did, and it improved my outlook a lot.

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>>17673539
I take it like pic related.

>>17673541
See pic related. That's the kind of reputation and look being nice gets you now. Even if your niceness is legitimate.

>>17673537
Well, if you'd let the chance that something might confuse you with a "nice guy" prevent you from acting nice, you're not that nice in the first place. Personally I just can't act neutral, if somebody needs something I can help them with; I need to actively try to even consider not to do it. Couldn't care less how it gets perceived.

Besides, you worry about a pretty unrealistic scenario. Most relatively mature people will be able to tell pretty fast. You're world view is too strongly influenced by bullshit from the interwebz, mate.

>>17673565
1). So much false consensus bias in this post.
2). I just hate being called nice now because of "nice guys." It's become such an insulting word, a tainted concept by people like >>17673558, and an unrealistic standard and fantasy for most (just a general one). Just to have that word applied to you now triggers rage and contempt.

>>17673507
>But the fact niceness is at all associated with creepiness makes it too great a risk to take sometimes. I prefer just being neutral and unattached with people now.

You associate niceness with creepiness. Don't blame others.

>>17673588
Because niceness is creepiness now. It's basically just guys who are looking to get into your pants for the most part. Now every time a boy is nice to me, I have to be suspicious.

>>17673598

Yeah, I'm sure. So you only trust assholes now, right?

Can you explain to me how do you live?

>>17673577
>1). So much false consensus bias in this post.
Or rather the entire thread.

>2)
"Nice guy" has become insulting, calling somebody nice isn't the same. At worst people will ask to specify whether the guy X was dating is a legit nice guy or a "nice guy". The line is pretty clear and I have yet to see anybody confusing one with the other.

Besides, nobody is going to call you a "nice guy", so if somebody calls you nice, they actually mean it.

>>17673606
I'm sure they do mean it. But it's still an insult because of the "nice guy" horse shit. You're pretty much put on the same buffet bar as those passive-aggressive louts who are just trying to get their dicks wet.

Niceness shouldn't even be rewarded or recognised, anyway. They should be just small whims, gestures which cost nothing, that are done to benefit others. Unfortunately, people take advantage of that and trying to get something out of being generous to others.

After you get off the internet and into the real world you'll realize niceness is far from creepy, especially since we live in an overly PC world,l and begin to realize it's only fake niceness that is creepy.

Being nice to the point of throwing away your logic and spine so you can maybe fuck a girl is the only kind of niceness that is creepy.

>>17673614
>I'm sure they do mean it. But it's still an insult because of the "nice guy" horse shit. You're pretty much put on the same buffet bar as those passive-aggressive louts who are just trying to get their dicks wet.

How? They called you nice. Do people punch each other in the face and insult one another all the time to avoid the stigma?

>>17673614
>But it's still an insult because of the "nice guy" horse shit.
Only because you're making this connection. The closest example I can think of would probably be atheist and fedora atheists. Any somewhat reasonable person will be able to tell the difference. Just like with nice.

>Niceness shouldn't even be rewarded or recognised, anyway.
Doubt that would be beneficial from society POV. Sure, some people would still act nice but the stigma of being "the asshole" also keeps the not so nice people in line, which improves society overall.

In the end it doesn't matter whether the guy who helped you to move did it because he wants to gangbang you with his friends or because he is just nice.

>Unfortunately, people take advantage of that and trying to get something out of being generous to others.
Is a given side-effect of course but again, it's pretty simply the tell them apart from decent people.

>>17673495

>I'll do something nice for you now because we're friends and I expect you'll probably do something nice for me in the future.
>I'll do something nice for you now, because you have a history of doing nice things for me and need to reciprocate occasionally so you'll continue with that behavior
>I'll do something nice for you now, because I want to contribute to a culture of niceness and I realize that I would benefit from such a culture

You can come up with any number of reasons, but at the end of the day humans are instrumentally rational, and only take actions that they believe will improve their fitness.

>>17673636

>I'll do something nice for you because you are having a bad time and could use a helping hand.

Cool how only Utilitarian ideas show up in your post. I'm sure there's no bias.

People have other philosophies, Anon.

>>17673651
Not him but your example ignores the subconscious motivation which is regulated by biology.

>>17673668

Where does biology come in?

>>17673651
>I have no other motives at all
>I am not actualizing my preferences
>I am not hoping other people will perceive me as a good person
>I am not hoping to make a friend

All other ethics are merely forms of utilitarianism. The biological imperative is to improve the fitness of our genes, and this process is inherently utilitarian.

>>17673673
Almost all of our behavior patterns survived evolution because they were of benefit, allowing us to pass on more copies and all.

Acting nice has tons of benefits for the society, the anon mentioned couple obvious examples already. Just because you don't consciously act to get the benefits, doesn't mean they aren't the actual reason.

There is nothing negative about it either, hell it should encourage us to act nice.

>>17673681

What?

>The biological imperative is to improve the fitness of our genes

How does being nice improve your genes?

Also, you can be nice to dudes, too. You know that, right?

>>17673692
>Almost all of our behavior patterns survived evolution because they were of benefit, allowing us to pass on more copies and all.

So being nice is a form of seduction?

Religious reasons? Anonymous donations to feed our own ego? All that crap doesn't exist?

>>17673698
>give your piece of meat to your caveman bro
>next time you're sick and can't hunt, your caveman bro gives his piece of meat to you
>both of you survive
>both of you can hunt together gaining more food
>both of you live long enough and have enough energy to father tons of children

>>17673703
>Religious reasons
Mostly related to being perceived as X, and of course fear (if I don't act in a certain way, god will punish me)

>Anonymous donations to feed our own ego?
Not that far off actually, pretty sure there is a study that proved that altruism makes the giver feel better too.

> All that crap doesn't exist?
Nobody is saying that. Simply that people do it for reasons beyond "they are nice" even if they don't actively realize it.

>>17673709

You keep going to the same example. It's the "be nice so people are nice back".

But that doesn't improve your genes. In any case it would improve your chance for survival.

Also, if that were the case, where do thieves, con artists, and assholes in general come from? Where's the biological imperative on that?

>>17673715
>But that doesn't improve your genes. In any case it would improve your chance for survival.
Well, I wasn't the one with "improve genes" line but basically, the only objective improvement for genes is the ones that improves the survival chance.

>Also, if that were the case, where do thieves, con artists, and assholes in general come from? Where's the biological imperative on that?
Prisoner dilemma yo. Sometimes the very best action is to fuck over others, due the way society works it's a pretty risky tactic obviously, hence not used all the time.

>>17673636

>I'll do something nice for you now, because I want to contribute to a culture of niceness and I realize that I would benefit from such a culture

There's literally nothing wrong with this.

Also, OP, being a good person is different than being a "nice guy." I get no satisfaction from being a dick. It does me no good. I like people in general - it seems that if you treat people with respect, they treat others with respect, and we can all be happy.

Is being happy supposed to be profound?

>>17673730
>Prisoner dilemma yo. Sometimes the very best action is to fuck over others, due the way society works it's a pretty risky tactic obviously, hence not used all the time.

Yeah, that's why an elite class has been profiting of the work of others for centuries.

That's why slavery was a thing. That's why big companies screw millions of people. That's why drug lords kill directly and indirectly their fellow humans.

Talk about biology all you want. It's "culture", "values", "ideas". Or else, all of this and more wouldn't exist.

>>17673740
Your examples are possible due the way our society evolved from hunter-gatherer lifestyle to agriculture, which introduced a much more vertical hierarchy, that rewards psychopathic behavior but even then; there are only so many people who can come on top, so the very best assholes survived and get rid of assholes who challenged them.

Nothing of it really negates biology; culture, values and the likes simply put more levels on top of it.

>>17673753

So now being a psychopathic asshole would be evolutionary correct, as it gives me more money, more food, more women, etc.

Hey, talking about women. They are pretty much required to propagate genes, right? Funny how humans, hardcoded to be nice as you say, treated them like garbage for centuries.

>>17673740
You're aware that different biological strategies exist, right?

Some organisms will be kind to others to improve their fitness, others will dick people over to improve their fitness. A million years from now, we'll see which was the better strategy.

If you'd like some light reading on the evolution of altruism (niceness), I really enjoyed Robert Trivers "The Evolution of Reciprocal Altruism."

>>17673776

Ok, so now we have options, that's nice.

>>17673763
Did you think evolutionary theory was that all organisms behave exactly the same? Because it's actually mostly the opposite.

(Other interesting reads on the topic include: Frank, 1994 and Sober 1998)

>>17673763
>So now being a psychopathic asshole would be evolutionary correct, as it gives me more money, more food, more women, etc.
As I said, check prisoners dilemma.

>kill the guy who has some food
>take his bitch
>scare of the other guys from doing the same to you
It's complete win for the psychopath. Now if every one would act this way, we'd have a hard time surviving, besides while acting nice offers fewer direct benefits compared to acting like a dick, it's a safer choice and more people benefit. After all if you fail to scare of the other guys from taking your shit afterwards, you and your genes die.

>Funny how humans, hardcoded to be nice as you say, treated them like garbage for centuries.
That started when we changed to hierarchical post-hunter-gatherer societies, so more of a culture thing than biologically motivated. Besides, it's not like they need to have rights to bear children.

>>17673789
>That started when we changed to hierarchical post-hunter-gatherer societies, so more of a culture thing than biologically motivated.

So culture exists, only not where I say, like being nice. It exists where you need it to exist, though, to justify a behavior. Great way to convince people.

>>17673800
It seems we're talking past each other. The point is simply that the culture of being nice is purely based on biology, while aspects like wealth inequality, mistreatment of minorities and women and the likes, evolved from biological behavior to something much more complex.

>>17673789
>>17673800

I actually disagree with that. Culture is an outgrowth of biology, and cannot exist independently of it. Culture is merely the result of group level evolutionary strategies (imagine the genes asking "let's see if a monarchy is better for our fitness or if democracy is")

>>17673811

You called it "culture" before. Not it's just "something much more complex than biological behaviors".

Also, how did all that stuff grow and modify throughout time, but "being nice" didn't? How is it still purely biological?

Your argument is really weak.

>>17673817
>Culture is an outgrowth of biology, and cannot exist independently of it.
Pretty much what I was trying to say, although you put it in better. Hey, it's 5am here.

>>17673821
"Being nice" is a fairy simple strategy, pretty logical too; something like "denying education to women" is a clusterfuck of IDEAS we developed due a clusterfuck of reasons and could only be implemented because society became very hierarchical - to overly simplify it: one powerful guy could come up with a brainfart and others would implement it.

>>17673821

What exactly is your argument? That niceness exists independently of biology (not trying to strawman, that's genuinely the message that's coming across to me).

>>17673844

That's funny. I would say subjugating women or other ethnicity is a pretty simple strategy. You just latch unto physical appearance and treat them bad.

On the other hand, "being nice" is complex. You have to be nice, while not leaving yourself open for exploitation by others, while not coming off as the "nice guys" that do it out of interest. You need to keep up the facade of civility.

See how baseless rhetoric makes things seem simple or complex depending on your aim? That's what you are doing.

>>17673846

Niceness is not *exclusively* utilitarian and biological. There are other reasons for it in addition to those two.

>>17673844
>>17673850

I also disagree that being nice is a simple strategy. For quite a long time evolutionary biologists had no idea how altruism could have even possibly evolved, if people always acted in their own self interests. We figured it out eventually, but it was a real paradox for a long time.

>>17673860
Where does this other stuff come from if not from inside us? Is it just an exogenous force imposes itself upon us (which is actually something some people believe, so that's cool if it's your explanation, I don't buy it, but hey, to each there own).

I was nice until I realised everyone took advantage of it and now I'm not very nice

>>17673881
this

>>17673874

Not a extraneous force. We humans made all the stuff in our culture ourselves. We created (and keep modifying/creating) idols, values, and goals for ourselves.

We are the creator of culture, and we are guided by it.

Want some reading? Check out Giddens, Bourdieu, and other sociologists/anthropologists.

Check out what the "superego" in Psychology is, guiding our actions to an ideal we built as children.

We do non-rational shit all the time. We make decisions that will not end with us reproducing all the time.

We are not just biology and game theory.

>>17673881

Being "nice" and being "dumb" are two different things. You can be both, or not.

>>17673850
>I would say subjugating women or other ethnicity is a pretty simple strategy.
For one, the benefit to your survival is very indirect if not nonexistent. It's not even a strategy. Other than that, it needs complex organization; finding enough people, convincing them to support your idea, implement the shit, justify it, fight the people who don't support it etc, etc, etc Tons of risks for a very questionable benefit. If people disagree with your idea too strongly, they might just lynch you after all. At worst you're going to get exploited when you're nice, which sucks and lowers your survival chance but not as bad.

>You have to be nice, while not leaving yourself open for exploitation by others, while not coming off as the "nice guys" that do it out of interest.
Sounds rather simple in comparison. It can also be observed in animals and children unlike subjugation of an entire sex or something is silly as racism.

Besides, once again le prisoners dilemma, the continuous version. A very common strategy is to act nice until the other party stops acting nice, which makes the exploitation less harmful and often encourages the other guy to act nice again. The people who roll with the constantly nice strategy are rather rare after all, since it's not the best one.

>>17673865
>We figured it out eventually, but it was a real paradox for a long time.
Well, there is no way I am smarter than the people who researched it but for me it was intuitively a pretty logical and simple explanation before I read about it. Perhaps growing up in a welfare state where helping the poor isn't questioned plus interest in politics and business generally played a part why it seemed so simple.

>>17673891
Pretty much agree with all of it, so it's kinda weird we're even having this discussion. Guess I just suck at explaining my point.

>>17673909


>>>17673891 (You)
>Pretty much agree with all of it, so it's kinda weird we're even having this discussion. Guess I just suck at explaining my point.

That's my only point, that biology or utilitarianism alone don't justify *all* niceness.

>>17673918
Well ... how about: Biology being the ultimate cause behind "nice behavior" as a rational survival strategy, which further evolved into a less rationally motivated behavior within culture due culture being somewhat irrational and controlled by forces beyond biology.

Sounds agreeable enuff?

>>17673961

As much as we can speculate about prehistoric behavior, sure, I don't care where it came from.

iktfb, I'm the nice/altruistic type, but I began to hate it. I'd rather be considered an asshole but people think I can't even be one. There mat be some truth to that, but still

>>17674476
Hey I just read the entire thread. You two main concerns are:

1) You only want to focus on the bigger picture and the long term, whereas the answer you're looking for has already been given to you: altruism makes the giver feel good. It feels nice to act genuinely nice. Selflessly providing value to other people boosts your oxytocin, dopamine and endorphines. It's in the here and now, which only translates into survival as feeling good about your peers, and creating strong bonds, is a better fundation for a society more suitable for your own endurance. There's far less seperation between individuals than you'd suspect. Each man is not an island.

2) You're far too concerned about how other people perceive you. Know thy self. If you got such a huge problem with people calling you nice, pity the complimenters for restricting themselves by having such an inexact and superficial impression of the interaction, instead of taking offence over fucking words. If you want to be hard, you should be able to take it when people see you as soft, especially if it's meant as a genuine appreciation.

And to answer an unanswered question from an above post: Yes, being nice is absolutely a part of seduction - but restricted to romantic/sexual seduction.

>>17674814
>>17674814
>but not* restricted to...

I fucked that one up

>>17673491

You need to separate in your own mind what kind of "nice guy" you are, and when someone calls you nice you need to take the meaning that you believe is true. The only reason you would think of it as an insult is if you thought you were one of the less appealing "nice guys".

I think the real meaning for a nice guy is someone who cares about the people closest to them and treats them with respect, doesn't allow himself to be used or taken advantage of and doesn't expect anything in return for being nice. Also someone who is aware of others feelings and doesn't intentionally upset people. It's basically just being a good person, but enough so people notice you're a standout.

>>17674882
Basically this, except the last sentence (imho).
I kind of saw myself in OPs post but as I've thought about this I realised that he and I are completely different.
People often tell me I'm one of the sincerely nicest guy they have ever met. There was a time when I got upset because of this but this was a long time ago (aprox. 7 years, when I was 18).
I made a lot of experiences and desu I an understand that you are getting angry about being associated with the "nice guys" but you also need to learn that being nice is not something you do for others because you want others to see something positive in you. Just like the poster before me mentioned. You do it because you want it, because you are about the people around you. It's nothing more than that.
I don't even want to stand out when I'm doing something nice but often it's the complete contrast to what other people do so I stand out sometimes. I respect other people and help when I can, it gives me a great sense of happiness in my life.
But you need to see that you are doing it for yourself and something inside yourself. It's a hard learning process.

>>17674913
Maybe we're not so different, because I kind of was you, sometime ago.

>>17673491
OP I feel the same exact way. I also keep all of my problems to myself and never bitch. I do anything to avoid coming off as soft. My last girlfriend was one of those abused hardened bitches who tries to walk on you if you show her any sign of weakness and that shitty relationship combined with other life experiences made me this way.

>>17673491
I also read that nice guy book and I realized it was me to a degree and I realized that I wasn't a nice guy I was kind of an asshole who tried to mask himself as a nice guy so I decided to just be my true self. I wasn't the guy that did shit for females expecting sexual favors. Even I'm not that much of a loser. I was the guy who had a problem saying no, never voiced my opinion, went out of his way to come off as nice, let females walk over me because my father was abusive to my mother and I wanted to be the exact opposite of him so I never stood up for myself in relationships with women.

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>be nice to everyone
>people think you're a retard or being nice just because you want something in return

This is relatable. I'm not even nice; specifically like being a dick and don't care if it's guy or girl, I'm going to make fun of you. What's annoying is how binary people are and expect everyone else to be in real life. Everyone wants to talk the biggest shit, saying "you're letting the interwebz ruin you", as if life isn't the reason some of us are here. Those same people don't want to acknowledge that in high volume areas, morality and ethics are out of the window.
Now, before I get too dark, let me get on point. OP, and anyone else with this problem, maintain the dick. When or if someone says you're nice, respond with "so you think I'm a pussy?". Don't let them soften you. You are who you are and have no need for misrepresentation in their minds. The minute something is left open to guess, they will fill it with whatever imaginary thing they can and run with it. Should you not stop them, they're free to push those ideas onto other people because you weren't (hu)man enough to stand your ground.
That's pretty much it, verifying yourself. In a world where that idea that anyone can be something dangerous; the true effect of terrorism, no body wants or trusts indecisive, unknown people. It's a secret fear that someone might not be who they say they are and because of TV and such, everyone thinks that the obvious traits are going to either be "quiet, shut off" or "really nice, polite", so you basically can't be either of these if you want to be considered a real person and not a backstreet bomber.

>>17675040

Let me ask you something: Are there nice people around you? Are all of them abused?

>>17675064
How do you manage to do all the things you're doing, and not come across as utterly insecure?

>>17675040
Fuck, are you me?

Being nice means doing something for others without expecting something in return.
Bein nice can also mean acknowledging other peoples' efforts. (simple things like saying 'thank you' and stuff)

If people are calling you a nice person you may actually be a friendly and helpful person people like to be around with.
If people call you a nice guy, chances are you are an oblivious person who seeks the approval of others by being 'nice' and you are a person easily taken advantage of.

If you don't want to come off as needy, make sure that people see you being nice as a choice of interacting with people, not a necessity.
Confidence is the key, a confident and nice person who does not need approval will never come off as a needy nice guy.

>>17673495
lol if that by itself was creepy there wouldn't be a single non-creepy girl on earth.

The only difference is looks. Easy as that.