Morally how should girls be treated? Let's say that a girl

Make everyday conversation, the weather, anything you guys got in common (example: class, work). It isn't that hard to talk to a woman.

Just don't molest her. Don't think it just makes you more autistic.

No, it's not immoral, it's just impolite. And since girls are usually insecure, they will react negatively. The way to approach women is to gain their trust and break through their barrier of insecurity.

>>17545397
When you're attracted to her it is, because you want to express that attraction in some way.

>>17545391
>The guy puts his hand on the girl's leg. Most people would say that's immoral because of how it would effect the girl emotionally. If you switch the genders it's not a moral issue because it wouldn't really effect the guy at all.

It's immoral either way because you're physically invading the other person's bodily integrating. Words don't.

So don't feel bad for saying, "Hello."

>>17545404
It's not immoral to touch a girl like that?

That's a minority opinion.

>>17545411
No it's not. If you touch her ass, that's immoral. It she touches your dick, that's immoral too. If you touch her leg, that's just rude. It's a breach of personal space. Girls react to that more negatively because they're more insecure.

>>17545410
Really? Touching someone on the arm isn't "physically invading" so how is the leg any different?

The only difference i see is in how it makes someone feel.

>>17545418
>It she touches your dick, that's immoral too.
I don't see how. No harm no foul.

>>17545422
Yes, there is harm. Another thing is that since you want to fuck her, you don't mind, but that's your personal choice.

>>17545408
If you express your attraction just like that in a sexual, it will go bad for you, and you will be seen as a creep. Even if you are close to the girl. You can show attraction with a simple conversation.
Like >>17545404 said, you have to break our trust barrier to get in our pants. We are basically taught from a young age to be wary of men, not just because of their tendencies, but because they are physically stronger than us. So, that's why touching a woman when she didn't even ask you to is seen as immoral but also as a creep move.

>>17545419
leg is closer to genitals fuckface

>>17545410
Your violating the bodily integrity of her ear drums with your sound waves. She did not consent to that.

>>17545437
It's stupid to draw brightlines.

The general agreement is that the more sexual a non consensual touch is, the more likely it is to be immoral.

What I don't understand though is why.

just talk to them like people. good fucking god.

You know, I always wonder if you guys grew motherless or without sisters
Dont they teach you this?
'If a girl gets drunk find her girlfriend and run away, If she looks shy give her space..' stupid bullshit like that

Fucking hell, why are you all such autists?

>>17545391

Are you really this dumb?

KYS???????????

>>17545486
I only had my family till I was 8, I'm 20 know. What is a family ? ;_;

>>17545461
They're different than guys though. With a gay guy can go up to a guy and be like "hey wanna suck my cock" and that's cool. But if you do that with a girl that's wrong.

>>17545486
I'm not retarded. I know this kind of stuff.

I can even have normal conversations with girls at bars and such.

The difficult bits come with closeness. Like lets say you have a girlfriend, and she cries because she thinks you're ignoring her, when you were really just distracted by something and you didn't get her text or something. Guys are different, guys you don't need to worry about hurting all the time.

>>17545391
>Basically my question is, how to interact with women (especially those you're sexually attracted to) without feeling like a bad person?

You could have skipped all that nonsense you had in the beginning about touching women's legs. First of all, don't touch people you don't know seductively, male or female, that is sexual assault.

Second of all you can never predict how talking to a girl will go, and that's the beauty of it. You need to build up a tolerance and tear down that ego where you fear rejection and you do that by talking to girls and getting rejected over and over again, until you get good at it. Just like with everything else in life.

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>>17545419
It absolutely is inappropriate both ways and you're probably literally autistic if you're not aware of this. Don't invade someone's personal space, and doubly so don't touch their bare skin in a sexual context (which putting your hand on their upper leg IS). That's not to say never touch someone or never have sex or do anything sexy, but make sure there is ample build up to it, that you are not strangers, that they want the touch as much as you want to touch them, and that it is an appropriate time and place for it.

>>17545519
It's obviously inappropriate for a girl to touch a guy's ass, but is it immoral?

I don't see how, just due to the fact that the guy wouldn't really care much. He might be slightly annoyed or wierded out, but there's zero chance he goes home and starts crying, like a girl might.

>>17545537

>He might be slightly annoyed or wierded out, but there's zero chance he goes home and starts crying, like a girl might.

What does this have to do with literally anything? Do you want to go around touching every woman you see or what? What's actually wrong with you?

>>17545548
Of course I don't. I already said I believe that touching girls like that is wrong.

I just don't see how the reverse is wrong though.

>>17545537
It is immoral to treat others with no regard to their own comfort and boundaries. It is immoral to treat others as toys for yourself whose thoughts and feelings do not matter.
>He might be slightly annoyed or wierded out, but there's zero chance he goes home and starts crying, like a girl might.
That has to do with a difference in men and women. Men are physically stronger and bigger. They have a higher chance of being able to overpower a woman. Women are smaller and weaker. They have a smaller chance of overpowering a man. A man isn't going to respond with the same emotions or severity, because it's less threatening for him to be groped, even unwanted. It is, however, no less immoral to disrespect his boundaries.

Do not touch people anywhere - sexually or otherwise - without the situation being appropriate for it and them being obviously at ease with you enough to be okay with it.

>>17545552
>It is immoral to treat others with no regard to their own comfort and boundaries. It is immoral to treat others as toys for yourself whose thoughts and feelings do not matter.
Yes I agree.

The issue I have is that with men, it's pretty clear where their comfort and boundaries are.

But with women it's really confusing! I can never seem to tell.

>>17545556
>>17545552
Here's another way of putting it.

Flirting incolves pushing boundaries. But if you have difficulty reading where those boundaries are, you can end up doing something bad.

That's what I'm afraid of that's why I don't flirt with women.

>>17545560
The problem is you don't start out by putting your hands on another person, and you DEFINITELY don't start out by putting your hands mere inches away from a woman's vagina in a way that heavily implies you're going to be working your way up.

How you start with women:
>hi I'm __________
>some observational comment - about work, the wait in a line, etc.
>talk about something in common, like she's listening to some great song
From there, flirt - with words alone - until you've built enough interest to ask her out on a date or ask her number. If you knew how to read people I'd also suggest you touch them in innocuous, nonsexual ways such as their upper back or arms occasionally, where appropriate. With you in particular I do not recommend this at this stage.

Once a date has started, you flirt and get to know them some more. If things are going well so far you can find an excuse to take her hand in yours (some bullshit about reading her palms to tell her her love life or something if you're really unable to initiate it naturally with no added help - actually learn which lines are meant to correspond to what if you want so you can use it as a conversation topic). Once you're touching her HANDS see how she reacts. If she doesn't seem to be comfortable, shit you jumped the gun and/or your date is going poorly. If she's comfortable it's probably not going badly.

If she was comfortable with the previous step then when things feel appropriate and the conversation has shifted to good byes or something a bit more intimate lean into her slightly. Wait for her to lean back into you. If she does, lean further and go for a kiss. If she hangs back or pulls away don't go in for one. If she turns her head, it's not ideal but if she really disliked you she'd pull away, she's likely not sure how she feels yet or uncomfortable around you (or maybe you have bad breath, who knows).

Based off the reaction to the kiss decide where to go from there over the next few dates.

>>17545589
How do i flirt with words alone?

Whenever I ask for a girls number it seems to take them by surprise. They seem nervous and uncomfortable and try and look for an excuse to leave. This makes me feel bad because I don't like making girls feel that way.

>>17545604
Also i heard that some girls will give guys their number because they're afraid of what he'll do to them if they don't. I don't want to put someone in that kind of position.

>>17545391
>If you switch the genders it's not a moral issue because it wouldn't really effect the guy at all.


Uh, what the fuck are you talking about, it would still be fucking creepy

>>17545419
Oh so you have autism

It's ok everyone, OP just has autism, nothing to see here

>>17545391
>Most people would say that's immoral because of how it would effect the girl emotionally. If you switch the genders it's not a moral issue because it wouldn't really effect the guy at all.

It is equally immoral for a stranger to put their hand on someone's leg for no reason. It doesn't matter what the genders are. I don't give a fuck how hot a girl may be if she touches me out of no where i will feel uncomfortable and disrespected. That line of thinking is just plainly incorrect that there is a difference between genders when popping someone's personal space, let alone touching them.

You should treat girls like any other person. Hitting on them is different, but start with simple.

>>17545604
I'm not going to go in depth because I'm going to bed now. My suggestion is to google advice about this, because there is information available out there on flirting that is geared for people like yourself who know absolutely nothing. I don't recommend PUA, they get some things right about how to create initial attraction, but their logic behind it is all wrong and a lot of what they suggest will never work for a long term relationship.

You can use body language and tone as well - and in fact should, it's a bit of a misnomer to say words alone - just make sure you're not touching her if you don't know where the draw the lines with personal boundaries.

I'll sum it up by saying flirting is pretending to have slightly more familiarity than you do with someone else, and denying the obvious that's there. It also involves playful, teasing remarks, certain types of look-away and then back games, preening, and so on. http://bodylanguageproject.com/ This site does not explain things flawlessly and is missing a lot of worthwhile content so I wouldn't suggest using this as your primary source, but it has some stuff you might find useful on it.

>>17545391
No. You don't touch strangers, especially skin to skin contact. I don't give a shit about gender. Don't fucking touch me.

>>17545623
>Don't fucking touch me.
this guy gets it

do whatever you want without breaking the law
rule one with interacting women
>be attractive

The reason you think you wouldn't mind being molested on a bus is because
1. This is not a situation that's likely to ever happen to you, so the negative aspects of it don't really register to you. It's like you can happily fantasize about how you'd spend a million dollars, but if you actually sat there with a million dollars in your lap you'd have a lot more anxiety about it
2. In your fantasy, the woman touching you is attractive. In reality, that might not be the case
3. You're single and you want sex (with women). The woman whose leg you want to touch might be married. She might be a lesbian for all you know.
4. The average woman does not pose a physical threat to the average man. If push comes to shove you could probable beat her up or at least restrain her. You don't really have to worry about what she might do.
5. Rape isn't something you have to realistically worry about. I'm not saying women can't rape men, but female strangers sexually assaulting grown men in an alley is certainly not common

Basically, if you want to see it from the woman's perspective, imagine the person touching your leg was a gay man roughly 6 inches taller than you with about 50% more muscle mass.

>>17545437
kek

>>17545723
>if you want to see it from the woman's perspective, imagine the person touching your leg was a gay man roughly 6 inches taller than you with about 50% more muscle mass.


That's the key here. When I talk to a girl I like for the first time, I always ask myself if I'd be okay with a stronger, unattractive stranger doing what I intended to do to me. If I'm wondering if I can touch her hand a few minutes into a conversation, I don't do it, because I know I'd feel uneasy about the situation if I was the recipient.

This isn't just about physical contact. Putting yourself into the woman's position helps with flirting too. How far can I go? Well, would I be fine with a joke about oral sex if it was told by an unattractive woman two times my size? If your answer is no, don't do it. You can stop applying this when you have an idea about her opinion of you. If she lets you touch or go a bit sexual, the unattractive part doesn't apply anymore.

That's why being social is important. I know it's cool to be an autist on 4chan, but in reality, you have to make things work with other people, and it's important to have a sense of right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, invasive and not worth mentioning. Unless you suffer from actual mental problems, you can get better by simply talking to others.

>>17545508

If your initial reaction is not comforting her, you two might not be cut out for a relationship bro. If my girl cries, comforting her is and explaining the situation is basically an instinct. Not because of experience or because I know that it's the "right" response to the situation, but because I love her enough to make her stop crying and feeling like shit, even if it means I won't be right in a (pointless) argument.

Jesus Christ, just treat them like a person. Like any other person on earth.

I literally don't even understand what goes on in the head of people who ask this. Is it that foreign of a concept?

ITT: Virgins/betas/NEETs/shut-ins debate whenever touching a random stranger is appropriate.

>>17546489
Of course not. Girls are life sucking vampires. They have to be treated with garlic and silver, or they will turn you into a zombie.

>>17545537
Yes.
I have male friends who are in committed relationships. Some of them with kids. They certainly wouldn't appreciate a stranger touching then, male or female.

In fact, we're all very adamant that we don't like being touched without permission. Sure, I would be much less likely to strike a woman for it, but if I were in the situation OP is describing I most certainly would.

>>17545391
>If you switch the genders it's not a moral issue because it wouldn't really effect the guy at all.

No. It would still matter. You're just thinking of it wrong because apparently you're constantly horny and that's skewing your sense of personal boundaries in this scenario.

In that same scenario, imagine you being a guy, and another GUY--someone you don't even know--is putting his hand on your leg.

You still comfortable?

No?

There you go.

>>17545519
This guy is right. Sometimes this pace surprises me how retarded everyone is.

>>17545418
Girls react negatively to that because almost literally anyone can overpower and assault them. Dudes constantly preach "oh just avoid dangerous situations" until they ARE the dangerous situation.

And, if we're talking numbers here, there's probably at least one guy on a bus at any given time who would rape a girl if he knew he would get away with it.

In the words of my grandpa who bedded everything from heiresses to scientists to common slags "treat them like dirt and they'll stick like mud"