Can someone please explain to me why so many guys feel they are

>>17423620
I'm not defending this sort of behavior, but it's because girls are always like "I wish I could just meet a nice guy." They internalize that and are fake nice expecting a reward of some sort. When they aren't rewarded you see that they aren't nice at all, they just think that's what girls want.

Real nice guys are just nice. They aren't acting. They aren't covert assholes.

Friendzone technically is when either:
1) The girl keeps the guy as a "friend" exploiting him and alimenting his (vain) hopes of becoming more than a friend.
His faults are having no dignity and being a doormat but this also means blaming the victim
2) when a girl genuinely rejects someone and then whine that all men are superficial, this is enraging if she outrightly refuses someone with whom she has a nice relationship

Then, for me often the whole concept of friendzone is a meme because most times it stems from the guy that doesn't act and doesn't make his intentions clear

>>17423631
I think its a tad ridiculous that whenever a girl says something along the lines of how she wishes she could find a nice guy, any guys she may have rejected in the past see red because 'well you could of had me'. Just because a guy is nice or they get along well as friends doesn't mean that the girl is going to see them as anything but platonic. There are other criteria.

the issue is that by our nature men are not interested in platonic female companionship, any male friend you have only puts up with your ridiculous cuntish behavior in the hopes that he may one day get to fuck you

>>17423620
1 - hormones
2 - a REALLY stupid set of arbitrary and never-explained rules to follow, which are broken, again, arbitrarily.

Look at which guys "get the girl". There is no magical "oh, I'm just interested or not interested, it's natural". That kind of thinking is bullshit. There are specific things that work, and specific things that don't work. There are things to look for, and things to raise red flags.

And if you happen to be more attractive than your peers, congratulations, you are a focus for the attention, and more red flags will be ignored, and more small hints will be taken.

Small hints DO include smiles, being nice, being playful, etc. These are legitimately what girls who are interested do. If it'd done on purpose it's called flirting. And you don't fucken ever ask US out, so we HAVE to take these hints.

Meanwhile, the subtle hints that you're not actually attracted - you don't actually acknowledge them, you frown or use bitch-face, wear grundgy sweater vests, etc... these are all possible false flags. You could just be having a bad day (hey, now we can help), or you could have had nothing but shitty experiences (hey, we can solve that too), or you could just be depressed (what do you know, I've been there).

So... it's a balance thing. benefit of getting girl multiplied by chance of getting girl... subtracting the threat of rejection.

The ones who think that the threat is high or the chance is low are the quiet ones you've never had to deal with. They're often really great places to look for guys.

The ones who think the chance is high and the threat is low are the assholes. If you're attractive you deal with these quite often.

Solution btw - don't wait for the crazy stupid song and dance for some sweet-dream guy. Go out and ask out a guy you like instead. Now you're taken - a great shield for like 90% of guys who would otherwise be interested.

>>17423719
I understand that these are the basic rules that you will go by when trying to determine whether or not a girl is interested in you. But the guys I'm talking about are the ones that make it clear they are into you, and then when you politely tell them you aren't interested its like they don't understand how you can't like them back because they have been nice to you, oh and last Wednesday when they said good morning you smiled back at them, or laughed at their shitty joke. I don't understand where this sense of entitlement comes from.

>>17423620
I'm curious about this also. I'm a waitress, it is literally my job to be nice and make conversation with everyone. However, it happens all the time that guys seem to take it personally and try to hand me their number before they leave. But i'm naturally nice and overly polite and accommodating so it happens outside of work too, almost every day on the train. Maybe guys are just attracted to nice girls/girls with a kind vibe?

>>17423746
I bet you're also pretty.

>>17423738

So it's a self-selecting group that think your hotness is high enough that they'll take EVERY chance of flirting seriously, and ignore every warning sign. They really need to go masterbate or something, because hormones are crazy and the thinking isn't that great.

That said... strangely enough sometimes it works. Creeps like this take their hints from other people who are confident and sexy and thus successful when they're creepy. weird. I've known a few coworkers that, if they were less attractive, would be the creepiest assholes I've ever known. They've slept with more then their fair share of hot women.

>>17423751
But if a pretty girl didn't give any guy the time of day, she would have a fraction of the number of guys asking her out.

>>17423760

If a hot guy didn't give any girl the time of day, he would have 0 girls asking him out.

Evolutionary if men don't take the risk they miss a mating chance. The hate you get after is just to make excuses to build back the ego you chipped at.

>Some men like me
Have no fucking idea when girls like them and assume all girls talking to them are just friendly. So when girls do like them and they do not respond females get angry. The do the same bullshit.

Im afraid to talk to girls because when i do generally they want sex from me. Which is great if you were not insecure and hated your physical appearance. I don't even know how to hit on a girl so you can imagine how confused i am.

>>17423753
I'm 19 so guys my age are probably just riddled with hormones I guess. It just pisses me off to no end that they expect 5 minutes of kindness to get them laid.

>>17423620

Because guys have a huge crush on that girl. Being nice is the only and best thing they can't do. They try to be nice very hard and at the end they realize it has been all in vain. They rattle and get angry out of frustration.

t. the was once a beta orbiter

>>17423781
*best thing they can do.

>>17423771
Trust me, it doesn't get a whole lot better. Like it or not, we got a shit ton of testosterone. Age only makes people more experienced and comfortable with it.

Worse btw in service industries and high testosterone industries. Don't be a lumberjack waitress or a hotel maid for oil workers.

>>17423620
False sense of entitlement and a poisonous mindset but its there in both ends. Girls feel entitled to a great guy and a guy entitled to a great girl. The concept of beggers cant be choosers is alien today.

That said a lot of guys are desperate and lonely. Not justifying it, just putting it into context. A lot, particularly in America, have been fed a media which says if you are nice enough you will get a hot girl and you deserve it. Girls are told same except with boys. The lads, terribly underequipped maturely to maintain a relationship, ask and are rejected.

A lot shrug and move on. But the ones who are entitled brats take this personally and it hits their self esteem. So they bitch and moan about not getting the girl they feel entitled to.

The exact thing can be said except in this case its a girl being dumped by guys again and again or foing the dumping. One is entitled, the other is picky. Both think they deserve the best despite otherwise not

Because "nice guys" are not actually nice. They are jerks who try to be nice in order to get sex.

There are actual nice guys who do things without expecting anything in return.

i have been friends with this girl for like 10 years and its mostly fine, sometimes i had feelings for her but now shes going away to another country and i wanna fucking give her a kiss before she left because its gonna be my last chance, what do you guys think?

>>17423786

You'd have to change the whole mindset, because feeling that you settled for less isn't better either.

>>17423795
May as well try it, the worst that can happen is she pulls away and says no. If that happens she will be gone anyway so whats the harm.
On the other hand you share a magical kiss and decide you really like each other, she is still gone, and you are left feeling like shit.

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>>17423620
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

>>17423804
nah dude, she doent like me i know, and if she say yes its just because she doenst want to make me feel sad or something like that, but i wanna do it for me, i think she's rly cool and i know nothing gonna change after that kiss. i kinda wanna do it for me, for all those years, and because im terrified of taking that action

>>17423796
Its more fixing the expectations. I am small, skinny and not ideal figure by any stretch. Do I fantasize about having a gorgous gf or wife? Sure.

Do i feel i deserve it? Nope.

Its up to me to improve if I want to find a woman of a certain standard, occupationally or otherwise. If I dont put in the work, well I dont expect much from.a future spouse. Even then I may not get it but by then i should be fulfilled in myself to not feel the need to deserve or demand any hot girl spread her legs or hook up just cause.

Its as simple as recognizing your circumstances, yourself and recognizing you dont deserve another person as they are people too.

If a girl came up to me and I wasnt interested and said no, thats my right to do so. She could be 1000/1000 and knowing she felt she deserved me would imply insecurity and a serious issue inml mindset.

>>17423620
Right, because women are NEVER flirtatious to their "friends". "Hey anon friend can you adjust my bikini strap? Btw were just friends don't get any idea"
That's what really happens, women don't get guys following them around for no reason dipshit. There's always 2 sides to the story, very rarely will you find a genuinely creepy dude who won't take a hint.

I will say this, if guys aren't entitled to sex, women aren't entitled to male attention,money, or commitment, but betas just hand that shit out like candy and ruin it for everyone.

The simple solution is just to not befriend women if you're a male with a strong(read: healthy)sex drive and only engage when you want to date/fuck. Of course men (read: anyone not 8/10 or up) is labeled as a fuccboi or some bullshit for objectifying women by greater society.

All do this is just a massive filter to ensure female access to the top percent of chads. This is why I don't mind Islam taking over the west-it's pretty fucking telling when the only thing that can keep women loyal and reasonable is the fear of God and the fear of being stoned to death.

i really need some advice here guys, im losing my mind with this shit.

>>17423817
That's a bit fucking creepy. "I know she wouldn't want it, but I want it, so I'm gonna do it."
If you go for the kiss, you're an asshole.

>>17423624
Basically what i was gonna say. The guys who act nice hoping to get sex aren't nice at all, they're just manipulative little assholes who shouldn't breed.

>>17423827
We are friends for more than 15 years, she kinda knows i liked her for some amount of time and she's going away for at least 1 year, I'm about to leave my city too, so it's my last chance to do some shit i always wanted to do. Plus its not like i just wanna do it for no reason, i really like her, and i liked her for a fucking long time when i was little.

>>17423847
>"nah dude, she doent like me i know, and if she say yes its just because she doenst want to make me feel sad or something like that"
She doesn't fucking want to kiss you. You clearly know this. Don't try and kiss someone that doesn't want to kiss you just because you want it.

>>17423853
nah dude, fuck this shit. If you want it you go and take it, if i go by that mindset i would never had sex or dated any girl.

>>17423847
Jesus man, just cause you knew her a long time and you like her doesn't mean she will reciprocate your feelings. Get over yourself.

>>17423620

it starts with a guy legitimately liking a girl, and being rejected.

He then sees the girl getting with a guy who isn't actually all that bad, but has said some dickish things, perhaps even to that particular anon.

anon is then fed a steady diet of teen dating movies where the nice guy has to work extra hard to get the girl, but ultimately gets her despite the very obvious asshole trying to stop him. he then inserts himselves into the shoes of the nice nerd, and thinks anyone else a girl dates is now THAT asshole.

he is then told that its a 'numbers game' and that he just needs to flirt with more women.

he then proceeds to hit on more women, being as 'nice' as possible cuz movies told him that would work

after many many many rejections he eventually comes to the conclusion that all girls like assholes (re: attractive outgoing guys) and that they are all cunts for friendzoning him.

>>17423858
Read what you wrote. That sounds kind of predatory and rapey. How do guys like you even get this mindset?

>>17423862
Pretty much this.

>>17423861
but im 100% sure that nothing is going to change, you see, it's not like she would fall inlove for me, i know nothing gonna change lol, but thats ok. Im not looking for a relationship and she isnt either. Its about that moment, im almost sure we will never see each other again.

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>>17423862
>outgoing
nice meme

outgoing = takes me everywhere and pays for all my shit

>>17423865
stop being so dramatic, its a kiss by two friends, how is that a rape. Get real. I said i like her.

>>17423865
from my understanding i think they mean "make your intentions clear from the get go" and "dont be around the bush in hopes of not being to forward which might be taken as being a ""weird guy"" bc im not ___ enough that the person im pursing prefers"

>>17423876
Thats really shallow and even how you type makes me think, no wonder girls got issues. If she isnt interested she isnt. Respect her enough to end it on her terms.

>>17423876
But she clearly doesn't want that moment, you do. Its pretty disgusting that you would kiss her, knowing she wouldn't want it and that it would make her feel uncomfortable, just for 2 seconds of your own pleasure.

>>17423890
you guys make me sad, but i understand. Yeah she doenst, i do. Damn thats hard to deal with.

>>17423884

ladies and gentlemen, the anon i was describing:
>>17423884

>>17423865
having said>>17423886
if the answer/sentiment is no then you obviously stop, but at least you know rather then waiting forever/perfect moment to actually make your intentions clear

>>17423909
i dont know what to do man, we always joke around, like she's fine with me grabing her ass anytime when we hug, she also send me some semi nude pics, we kinda rly good friends. I just wonder if i gonna regret for the rest of my life if i dont do this

>>17423906
>implying Peggy boy isn't the most upfront person here

>>17423928

so are the beta faggots who think they deserve sex for being nice. its literally what they whine about

>>17423932
They aren't upfront at all.
Their whole thing is waiting for the girl to do something for them.

>>17423767
How did you determine that girls want sex from you if you can't tell that they like you?

>>17423923
oh okay then yeah the fuck. she is just likely the attention and emotional interaction aka using you. try one more time with obvious straight forward intentions, if not, then just simply walk away and cut all contact, which might change the way she looks at you but it doesnt matter bc you dropped her already and learned something valuable

>>17423956
yeah man i really like her, that's what im trying to say. I just wanna a kiss because im pretty sure we are never going to see each other again, or for at least a couple of years. I think i deserve it, and its just a kiss you know, for her its not big deal but IT IS FOR ME. Also thank you for listening to me, im really grateful

>>17423968
no problem brah. i didnt realize how much back and forth there was with the more then flirtatious behavior. if you just kiss here so waht? didnt hurt her, and it answers the questions in the back of your mind. if she gives some mixed up bs answer be man enough to say "NAh" though

>>17423977
yeah we are really mature about this, im 25 and so do she. It's just a kiss for my old time crush you know, no big deal we still gonna be friends (mostly virtual but even so). Even if i get rejected (wich ia doubt) everything is going to be ok i guess.

>>17423620
I don't feel entitled at all which is why I pay for it instead of jumping through a fuck ton of hoops just to get it.

>>17423983
if the answer is no, dont let her get in the way of your future relationships.goodluck!

Men's precious commodity is their ego. Asking a girl out is the hugest test of their ego

The men who take the long route and try to be "friends" with the girl first are just preventing the inevitable. It is honestly better if you straight up just told a girl you're interested in being more than a friend with her, right off the bat. It won't make you look sleezy, in fact you will get respect from her, granted you dont do it in a douchebag way.

This "long game" that most nice guys are used to playing is what lands them in trouble. If the woman rejects after you've been forward with your intent then you have a choice, to either want to be her friend or to bounce, you don't have an emotional investment so you can just do as you please. If she doesn't, then good for you, you just skipped however many months you wanted to keep pretending, and didnt waste a lot of your own time.

>>17423994
yup i agree, and as a straight guy i say that is impossible to have a female straight friend without having some sexual tension between.

Because they're still somehow able to look past most women's huge egos.

>>17423647
So why don't you say that?
"I want a _______, ________, nice, et cetera guy."
Can't really fault them if all they think you want is nice.

Don't people ever get tired of talking about the nice guy meme?
If you want to fuck him, he's a nice guy no matter what he does
If you don't want to fuck him, he's pretending to be a nice guy no matter what he does

Man people are fucking insufferable to listen to with their shitty rationalizations trying to dance around the real reasons so they don't have other people thinking they're an asshole. On an anon image board of all shit y'all still do it too. Fucking egomaniacs.

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>>17423620
Its not so much being entitled as it is being pragmatic about it

There's no point interacting with a girl if you have decided there's 0 percent chance of getting sex out of her or using her connections to get sex like from her friends or something

Any time you spend putting into interacting with a girl who has friend zoned you, ie has indirectly or directly told you that sex isn't happening and things will remain platonic, and you cant gain any connections out of her that could lead to sex, is wasted time

That time, hours, days, money, gas, whatever, could be spent on girls where there is a possibility of sex

>>17424022

So please tell us what the real reason is. Are you gonna throw out a bunch of /fit/ memes that only guys who are over 6 feet tall and have a square jaw get girls?

Threads like these make me favor Sharia law.

>>17424076
I know that feel

>>17423620

...What advice are you looking for again?

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're trying to get a rise out of the fact that most of the people who seek help in here are guys who don't get laid very often and are frustrated about it.

God I hate this culture.

Look, if you like someone, you wanna do shit for them to try and make them happy, and smile.

It's not entitled to be upset when someone doesn't like you the same way back. That's just how it goes, sometimes shit doesn't work out and you're allowed to feel down about it.

And guess what? Yeah, a guy's gonna feel like shit if he's willing to go the extra mile for someone, but to that person, he's worse than the married man she fucking, or the guy who beat her or whatever.

Shit happens, when it happens, people feel like shit, then they complain. It's not entitled, it's human fucking nature.

But, why the fuck am I bothering to try and explaining this?
Ya'll just gonna keep this shit up until the day men stop doing anything at all for women, out of fear of being labelled "nice".

Happened with chivalry.

>>17424074
So please tell us what the real reason is.

I already did

>If you want to fuck him, he's a nice guy no matter what he does

>If you don't want to fuck him, he's pretending to be a nice guy no matter what he does

Because they're too stuck up to take any personal responsibility. They think that kindness is something that guys who actually get girls are incapable of. They believe that they would never get angry with or disrespect the girl they like and because of that, they believe they deserve all the girls they want.
I was like that a few years ago but then I used my brain to realize that just because someone is nice, doesn't mean they're perfect.

>>17423620
You are completely missing the point of what the "Friendzone" is
1) It means a girl you want to have a relationship with does NOT want to have one with you. The end. No expectation, just disappointment.
2) Sometimes the girl even says shit like 'I wish I could meet someone to date who is as nice as you are'. OK, what am *I* missing that anyone else with my personality would be welcome to date you?
Get is, Pocahontas?

>>17424108
yup im with this guy.
If you like someone you should be free to go for it. If things doens't go the way you want you gonna be sad and that's ok.

Also keep in mind that when a girl talks about what she wants in a guy, she's probably full of shit. Same mostly goes with guys too. Few people know what they really want in a partner.

>>17424114
Can we petition to decriminalize rape?
That will solve a lot of problems in society. I watched a documentary once and this dude who raped a woman said it was. The most satisfying thing he's ever done in his life, better than any drug

>>17424119
agree, guys are more direct i guess, but girls are even more confused imo.

>>17424126
WTeverlovin'F?

>>17424132
Women orgasm during rape. Rape is the #1 fantasy of women worldwide.
Consent is a social construct.

There really is no such thing as "rape" in society, just a giant shit test to keep beta male seed away. Look at how European women are voting to let dominant Arab refugee men into their vaginas.


http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape

Arousal is the most natural form of "consent" tbqh fampai

>>17424150
>no such things as "rape" in nature

I see this attitude a lot described here and portrated in works of fiction, but I rarely encounter another human being who behaves this way in real life

>>17424017
Usually, when a woman is saying "I want a nice guy," it's because a guy was being not nice. I don't know about you, but I don't go around listing all of my criteria whenever I have a complaint about someone. If a man is mean to me, I don't say, "I want a nice guy with a good sense of humor, an athletic build, who's good to animals and tips generously, plays video games but doesn't spend more than two hours on them a night, has a reliable job, practices good hygiene, and trims (but doesn't shave) his pubic hair."

If someone's being an asshole, all I think of is how I want to be near someone that's not an asshole.

>>17424126
This

>>17424126
I believe it.

See, the problem here is that there just simply isn't an easy, fast, standard way for this to work.

This is what drives the people who are more socially awkward or actually rate somewhere on the autism spectrum crazy, because they often either want or depend on metrics or systems to make sense of the world.

The reality is that the exact same actions and words could mean completely different things from two different people. That's why it's always said that there just simply isn't a handbook on the correct way to handle every situation - it comes with experience and even then people get it wrong. You just have to go out there and interact with more people.

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>>17423620
>Can someone please explain to me why so many guys feel they are entitled to be able to date/have sex with a girl just because they have been nice to them?
Your picture pretty much says it all. They're used to treating life as a series of transactions: pay X to get Y, and if Y is not forthcoming when you pay X, then something is wrong with the other party.

Many of these kids have this idea that dealing with women is literally their first encounter with something that does not work that way. From grades (pay study, get grades) to parents (pay good behavior, get approval) to games (pay practice/playtime, get score/achievements) even to transactions they'd rather avoid, like bullies (pay reactions, get more bullying). They think their entire world is wrapped up in the concept of the transaction, and so they try to apply the same concept to women, and it doesn't work, and suddenly they're in an utterly unfamiliar world. And they get pissed off, because they have no idea how it works and they get the sense that they cannot know how it works and it sends them into paroxysms of NERD RAGE.

Of course, it isn't hard to argue that this transaction-bound worldview is delusional. Not just in terms of women, either, but all the other things I mentioned. But delusional or not, it's what goes through their heads. And when reality doesn't match with their perceptions, it pisses them right the fuck off.

>>17423620
Because women endlessly poss and moan that there are no men around to treat them right and care about them.

In reality they are bitching about the particular crop of men that they, ironically, feel "entitled" to themselves.

Worst is when I go on FB and a girl shares a post like "find you a man who treats you right" and a bunch of guys comment and like but she ignores all of them. Then complains because her "boyfriend" ignores her all the time and is probably cheating on her.

>tldr everyone is an idiot.

>>17424108
I will screen cap this and post it every time somebody brings up entitlement ever again. Thank you.

>>17424278
>Of course, it isn't hard to argue that this transaction-bound worldview is delusional.

How do you extrapolate that they think it's a currency? This entire argument is based on thinking there is an obligation.
If you're a nice guy and do nice things for people they're going to accuse you of being a jerk only if they're trying to use you for that shit.
Is this entire fucking meme just people endlessly trying to justify some bullshit narcissistic women use to manipulate guys?
If you don't think a guy is nice, don't accept shit from him. That's not very nice to use someone for something. Stop trying to justify your own shitty behavior with someone else having bad behavior. Two wrongs don't make a right. Try to argue it doesn't if you're a greedy piece of shit. Have some fucking integrity at least if you're going to accuse other people of not having it. I guess if you got a pussy pass though people will just sit around arguing about it while you do your shitty conniving game.

>>17424201
I've never heard it in that context. It usually just kind of comes up whenever any of my female friends start talking about guys.
Ex.
They're talking about whatever.
One casually asks -
"All I want is a nice guy, is that too much to ask for?"
Always followed by a string of ikr's, mhm's, whatever.

>>17423817
Don't do it. You're going to taint your whole 10 year relationship with that moment. Even if she said yes out of pity, why would you want a kiss from someone who doesn't really want you? I can't see this ending any way but poorly.

>>17423620
I hate how being nice has been perverted into this weird shit now.

I act "nice" because I don't see a benefit to the alternative. I do take care of myself for the most part. I also like to take care of and satisfy others.

There's a lot of reasons a guy could be upset after being rejected. Sometimes I just need to protect myself and detach myself from a woman who's rejected me, so I don't have to think about her too much or worse: see her with other guys. I've probably been accused of being entitled for not wanting to be "friends" with women who not only turn me down, but actively display no real interest in me or my life.

Speaking of, if a girl wants to truly be a friend I do appreciate it though. I'm talking about actual friendship though. Not Facebook likes and comments, but a friend I can spend time with and share support with.

If someone gets upset after I reject them I can totally understand it. Its not my place to tell somebody how they "should" feel about me rejecting them. I know it hurts and sucks. I can empathize with it all too well.

>>17423620
Girls want it as much as men do and have equally difficult standards.

>>17423865
It's the ONLY way for some people to get what they want. Either they try a 1000 and fail 990, or they don't try to appease people like you and never get what they want.

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>>17423784
>got a shit load of testosterone
>still acts like a child

>>17424005
Only if she is attractive, that is true.

>>17424612
I've only ever heard it in the context of complaining.

>>17423620
I don't know, I'm not one of those guys.
They probably have that /r9k/ mentality where they half-ass life and expect everything to meet their little fantasy land where they have a harem of girls and a ton of money.

Personally I blame anime/television/movies/video-games.

>>17424109

Sadly for you, the world isn't as black and white as you want it to be.

>>17424126

>can we petition to decriminalize rape?

>I'm a nice guy, why dont girls like nice guys me? why do they always go for the assholes?

>>17424278

This is the most astute post I have seen in this thread. Pretty much nerds from /r9k/ are pretty much socially uncultured. They expect life to work like video games, "Maybe if I earn enough xp I can finally unlock sex"...but people just don't work that way, especially women. So instead of learning how people in general think, it's just better to sit around and complain about it, cause that's the easier route to follow.

>>17424560
>How do you extrapolate that they think it's a currency?
I don't. They treat it more like a sort of barter system: do X, get Y. The extrapolation is easy from the fact that they get so upset at, having (in their eyes) done X, not getting Y.

>This entire argument is based on thinking there is an obligation.
If they don't see an obligation, then why does it make them so angry? We get mad when we think we're being treated unfairly, which in and of itself presupposes an obligation. There is literally no other reason to get mad.

Of course, it's possible that the anger is purely irrational, but this implies that Internet Nice Guys are simply insane. By taking the position that they see an obligation, I am choosing to be charitable. This IS the nice interpretation.

>If you're a nice guy and do nice things for people they're going to accuse you of being a jerk only if they're trying to use you for that shit.
Or if they suspect you of being manipulative. Which the Nice Guys all too often reveal themselves to be the moment they're scrutinized or even mildly questioned.

>If you don't think a guy is nice, don't accept shit from him.
They are giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming that you are being honest until you demonstrate otherwise. This is not "using people": it's just common decency.

But you know this. If you didn't think you could trick women into thinking your intentions were honest, you wouldn't do it. It wouldn't even make sense.

>That's not very nice to use someone for something.
No, no it isn't. Which only makes Nice Guys even worse for the bullshit they pull.

>Stop trying to justify your own shitty behavior with someone else having bad behavior.
But the women in these cases are not behaving badly. That would require information which, at the time, they aren't privy to. And you know this. Your whole plan depends on it.

>Two wrongs don't make a right.
Indeed, but there are not two wrongs being done here.

>>17424278
>Your picture pretty much says it all. They're used to treating life as a series of transactions: pay X to get Y, and if Y is not forthcoming when you pay X, then something is wrong with the other party.

Who fucking thinks like this besides an extreme minority of people?

You people make this bullshit strawman every time and cling to it for dear life. Things are far too nuanced for every guy complaining about a 'friendzone' to be a robot loser who doesn't 'get' women.

I got butthurt once about being "friendzoned". Signs that I interpreted as romantic interest included her kissing my neck, her cuddling with me, her talking to me for hours, her telling me she "really likes" me. Turned out I'm wrong, I was butthurt for a bit because I KNEW her reason for not wanting to date me, and I couldn't accept it (trust me, it'd be hard to accept for anybody, but then I thought that it's as good as an excuse for just simply not liking me, even if she said it's not that she doesn't when I asked her). Nowadays I don't think anybody is actually romantically interested in me, they'd have to flat out tell me or french kiss me or whatever.

I got friendzoned the second time as well, by a girl fairly similar to the previous one personality wise. I assumed she doesn't like me back this time though, we've been meeting up often, even went to a vacation in two, we became kind of like close siblings I suppose. Gotta admit it is a bit confusing when - after spending so much time together and not being bored - a girl tells you "there's no chemistry between us at all", but I figure I'm too ugly, too short, too mellow, too available, too ordinary - whatever is the reason doesn't matter, gotta get over it and go on. Then, ironically, the moment I stopped caring about finding dates I got a cute girl to approach me herself.

I'm the kind of guy who's literally nice to everybody though, surprisingly the most of banter I do is with girls I got crushes on.

For me it's because it's not worth spending time with another person unless I get something out of it. I would much rather spend my time alone. I don't care about being nice, or buying shit, or whatever, but if I spend a night with you instead of working, playing poker, playing video games, reading, watching a movie, etc., then you had better be interesting as fuck or sucking my dick.

Unfortunately most people, men or women, are terribly boring things I don't want to spend my time with.

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Because we don't have care about having women friends unless we have zero chance to fuck them

Those who are investing time into getting to know women is because they want to ask them out but are not ready yet

For the rest of us we simply do not bother much and play the numbers game until you get a number or a date. Or in this day and age if you wanna fuck Timber is also a good option or anything really.

But the bottom line is and I'm not kidding about this, for about 80% of men, women are vapid and uninteresting (unless they behave like normal people who like things are not empty on the dialogue). But that rarely happens, so for all purposes and cases, the dynamics of mating have forced upon this generation of men to grow out to be assholes who simply give interest to women they can have sex with and dish out the rest. If you feel tempted to blame men for this, think for a second now how many times have you rejected good guys in your life that might have lead them into actual depression. There's your answer

When you're part of a society there are some norms and rules you have to follow. You do this because in the end you benefit from being part of the society. You're taught from day one that if yo uphold the rules, you'll be rewarded.
Now what happens if you do follow all those rules, but society is not giving anything back? In fact it seems like you're doing everything right but society is not upholding its own rules and you're not rewarded for anything you do? While others are rewarded while breaking some of the rules at will?
Why would you not be upset and angry about this? Why would you continue following the rules? Why would you not start a shooting spree?

The only thing you have to counter this is a no-true-scotsman fallacy:
>You haven't been TRULY nice.
As if women had a sensor that detects who is truthful and who is not.
As if intentions matter when women get pumped and dumped and complain about it.

>>17426236
You kinda stink of fedora. It's true it's shitty when women say stuff like "you're not TRULY nice" when it's actually an excuse for not being attracted to you, but being mad and even going on shooting sprees because you expect girls to like you for being a proper human bean?

What guys who get "friendzoned" need to understand is, there either is attraction or not, and if there's none you can't help it and it doesn't matter what kind of excuse the girl uses. If she tries to guilt trip you for liking her and being nice to her and then being sad/frustrated you got rejected - that girl wasn't fucking worth your efforts. When I talk to girls about friendzone it's true some of them have this asshole-ish attitude, but a lot of them understand the pain of rejection and ask me how to avoid situations like that. I always tell them to show clearly they are not attracted, so the guy knows even if he hasn't asked them out.
Though I bet some naive guys think they may make woman attracted with time. I mean myself I work like that, I only fall for girls I got to know already. But women? For them you're either fuckable or not fuckable the moment they see you. The faster you figure out which category you fall in the better, you won't be able to change it anyways

>>17426262
>but being mad and even going on shooting sprees because you expect girls to like you for being a proper human bean?
Way to miss the point.
Society functions on a specific set of rules to uphold order.
You as an individual get told that it's a rule to always be nice. And it's also a rule that "there's someone for everyone."
So you follow all those values that you've been socialized on. But then one day you realize some of the rules are actually wrong. Being nice rarely gets you anywhere. In fact there are people who are jerks, treat everyone else like shit and abuse the system and yet they're very successful and popular with women.
Then you start think that maybe not just some rules are wrong, but all of them? Like the rule that raping or killing someone is "evil." So you start breaking them.

>You kinda stink of fedora.
Thank you. You kinda stink of roastie.

>>17426298
>>17426262
Forgot to say:
Telling someone that he hasn't been truly nice or not nice enough is telling him to follow a rule that isn't true. In the same way "just be yourself" is terrible advice for an individual who doesn't benefit from the cultural values he's been raised on.

>What guys who get "friendzoned" need to understand is, there either is attraction or not
Exactly. But you missed the part where they have to realize that being nice is not attractive. At least not in the conventional way that gets promoted by mass media and our mothers.

>>17425445
>Who fucking thinks like this besides an extreme minority of people?
Did I say anyone thinks this besides an extreme minority of people? Redpillers and Nice Guys are an extreme minority of people: large enough to absolutely fucking ruin the dating scene for everyone else, but not much larger.

>Things are far too nuanced for every guy complaining about a 'friendzone' to be a robot loser who doesn't 'get' women.
No, actually, they really aren't. That's one of the creepiest things: you can actually predict the Nice Guy's arguments before they even make them.

We could go slightly deeper, I suppose, and say that Nice Guys stubbornly refuse to see women as anything but close relatives or potential mates. This is what gives rise to transactional thinking: when you see no possibility for honest friendship, the only other way to relate to strangers are these businesslike transactions.

The friendzone does exist. The great lie of ladder theory isn't that women have one, it's that men don't. But that's your problem: a personal character flaw in the Nice Guys and redpillers, not in women who just want friends. You are the priblem, and you need to change.

>>17426298
>You as an individual get told that it's a rule to always be nice. And it's also a rule that "there's someone for everyone."
The first is a rule. The second is not, and no one ever told you that it was. A common saying, yes; a rule, no.

>Then you start think that maybe not just some rules are wrong, but all of them? Like the rule that raping or killing someone is "evil." So you start breaking them.
And you wonder why women call you creepy. This, right here, is what they're afraid of. They are not wrong to call you what they do. You're the creepiest creeper that ever done creeped, and it is entirely your own fault. You can change. You must change. No one will ever want you if you do not, and no one should. For all your lip-service to kindness, you are a terrible person.

>>17423823
This x100000

>>17426565
>when you see no possibility for honest friendship

I see it. I've done it. I have hung out with women in a completely friendly way, not expecting sex or a relationship.

In fact, that's my defacto way of behaving around women - with little or no expectations. Many women (and men) I know don't know how to be a good friend. They want friends who love and support them but don't offer the same thing in return. That's why I basically walk away when a woman says she wants to be friends as a means to reject me: in not interested in lousy friendship.

>>17426655
You sound like an emasculated. Brogressive pussy. Step aside as Islamic men impregnate your wives and daughters.

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>>17426594
>confronted with an argument
>responds with ad hominem
You sure told me, friendo.

>>17424278
>series of transactions

okay when women do it right? they get to use sex as a bargaining tool and that is okay.

>>17426662
0/10

>>17423620

I've noticed /adv/ has a number of very hurt, very bitter men and women sharing a cancerous perspective and advice with vulnerable people, and that scares me.

1. MEN AND WOMEN HAVE DIFFERENT MINDSETS

We don't think the same. We don't interpret things the same way, and we don't react the same way. There is gender friction exactly because we can't communicate with eachother.

Men, simply put, prefer other men as friends. Bros, comrades etc. We can communicate with eachother better and are more likely to have similar reactions to similar things. We don't want to be your friends. We want to be your SOs.
There are exceptions to this though. For example I grew up having more female friends than male.

2. JORAH, DROGO AND DAENERYS

When a man loves a woman, he feels compelled to pay tribute to her. Help, gifts etc. That is an indisputable truth about the male brain. Our problem is that your brains interpret it otherwise and act differently than we think, feel and expect you should. When a woman rejects a nice guy in favour of a Chad, we feel betrayed and that we're told we aren't good enough. We invest ourselves emotionally during our "approach" so a rejection weighs heavily. When we are friendzoned, we feel betrayed, told that we are worthless, *and* exploited. "I'm courting you, why do you engage with someone else while I'm right here and haven't received a negative answer from you? Why are you sending me mixed signals?"

How would you feel if a man betrayed and used you? You'd be rightly furious! You'd feel contempt and tell all your friends about how much of a piece of shit he is. This is how nice guys feel about being rejected or friendzoned.

>>17428101
cont.

Btw, a nice guy is trying to earn your love, not rent your cunt. Men are fully aware that prostitutes cost less in time and money, and are easier to get a hold of and get rid of. The difference between you and a prostitute is that you're an entirely different person with an entirely different personality, interests, ethics and quirks. The nice guy picks you over a prostitute for those reasons. Reasons that you yourselves expressly want a man to cherish might I add.

If you're thinking I'm full of shit, then it's proof that I'm right about our alien mindsets.

3. ΤΑ ΚΑΛΑ ΠΑΙΔΙΑ ΧΡΕΙΑΖΟΝΤΑΙ ΦΕΜΙΝΙΣΜΟ

In other words "nice guys need feminism". Even though I've gone through emotional hell and still dream of a certain girl who didn't love me back around fifteen years ago, I believe nice guys are to blame for their lack of results rather than "that heartless, jock-riding bitch".
Because like feminists, nice guys are trying to speak to the opposite gender in their own language and get frustrated when they sound greek to the other sex. Same applies to feminism (in general, not third way feminism). I want something from you, but you don't want something from me. So I should be the one to go through the trouble of learning your language so I can speak to you and be understood.

I don't know if men and women even share the same definition of scumbag, so I can't tell if nice guys are or aren't scumbags. What I can tell is that nice guys are guilty of stupidity, not ill intent.
Sure they want to screw you. And cuddle. And share romantic moments. And have meaningful conversations. Whether they deserve these things or not is another matter entirely.

>>17423620
Because men are bad at reading signals, and because women are bad at reading the signals of men's niceness.

Men think women being nice is a sign of interest, so they reciprocate it. Women think it's natural behavior and don't make too much of it. Men start to encourage themselves, start having dreams, investing more time and energy into the girl and when those dreams are crushed, and the time and energy they invest into them won't pay off they get hurt, because they interpret it as a personal failure and it destroys their self esteem.

Girls do it also, but much rarely. I had the misfortune of having a girl like this fall for me in high school. I hurt her more than any girl since, and I didn't even realize it back then.

>>17426666
>>confronted with an argument
>>responds with ad hominem
What "argument"? There was nothing of logic or substance there, just the irrational whining of a lunatic. I dignified it with all the answer it deserved, you fucking creep.

>>17426655
>I see it. I've done it. I have hung out with women in a completely friendly way, not expecting sex or a relationship.
You are lying to yourself if you really believe this. Any fool can see from your own descriptions of your actions that it isn't true.

>In fact, that's my defacto way of behaving around women - with little or no expectations. Many women (and men) I know don't know how to be a good friend. They want friends who love and support them but don't offer the same thing in return.
And you just ask to ve paid in sex, amirite?

I think you're the one who doesn't know how to be a good friend. But you lack a proper understanding of boundaries: what it is and is not okay to ask of a friend. You do not understand why it's a bad idea to ask more of a friend than they are capable of giving. You don't know how and when to be emotionally honest. You belittle those who are not capable of giving you what you want. Indeed, the only thing you seem to understand about friendship is the basic idea -not even the nuances- of give and take. In other words, the simplistic transactional view that I mentioned earlier in the thread.

>That's why I basically walk away when a woman says she wants to be friends as a means to reject me: in not interested in lousy friendship.
You're doing the right thing by walking away, but for the wrong reason. You hid your feelings for so long that you whipped yourself into a frenzy of emotional overinvestment, and now you need time and distance for your feelings to cool.

When a woman says "I just want to be friends", she is assuming that you have done the honest thing and told her about your feelings as soon as you became aware of them, when they are still mild and easy to dismiss. In other words, she's giving you the benefit of the doubt, which is the decent thing to do. When the truth comes out -that you've been infiltrating her life for months under false pretenses so that she can't tell you know- that's when you become a creeper.

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>>17424278
The lack of empathy for men is astounding

>>17424278
They are right about how the world works. What they don't realize that they put in the wrong coins.

They put in coins that women put into them. Women put kindness coins into people to get safety and appreciation. They put sex coins and teasing and pleasuring coins to get the man they want to stick to them. These kinds of coins don't work on girls.

Girls work with money coins, social dominance coins, and power coins. This is what they realize too late, and that's where their problems stem from. They are frustrated because they don't know why their efforts don't yield a results, and when they realize how things work, they think bad of women because they can't appreciate the value and the usefulness of these coins.

>Walking into a building
>Guy holds the door for me instead of dropping it in my face
>I know he's only doing it because he thinks it will entitle him to sex

>>17424108
The thing is we learn from our mistakes.

You do something and you fail you won't try to act and do things like that.

I liked a girl at my uni we studied together and even did some papers for this girl-assignments.
One day i overheard that they were talking about me how nice i'm.
This bitch told my other friend she never would date a nice guy like me.

I class i sit next to her, she asked me if i have her assignment done, i was about to give the papers to her and instead i tear it to pieces.
Told this bitch Oh i'm not a nice guy anymore.

TL.DR : Why would u do nice things to a fucking girl if she is just going to send you to the friend zone.

The thing is those strange creatures called Woman like to give mixed signals.

>>17423620
>girl is possessive for me
>constantly says she loves me
>treats all my gfs like shit
>refuses to think of me like 'that'
>yet still hints and teases as bait
Men don't want to be tools or back ups. Same for women, I'm hopefully assuming. I hardly put up with my female friends who try to dangle me on a chain as a beta orbiter. Stop leading men on without being clear of intent.

>>17428491

>Holding the door for an old lady
>She doesn't offer me thank you sex

Seriously though a simple thank you wouldn't kill you. Or if you held the door for me. And yet both sexes are raised to expect men to hold the door, and young/middle aged women hardly break stride when you open the door for them.

>>17428406

Interesting perspective. Gets the point across very good. Thing is, 1) women advertise they want sensitive, compassionate men and 2) money, social status and power are often acquired by dishonest or shallow men. We neither approve of scumbags nor do we appreciate your rewarding people that are hindering society (such as politicians, bankers and druglords), or your lying to us about what qualities you want. This is why cynics conclude that women don't know what they want and that they shouldn't be listened to in general.

>>17423620
Yeah well maybe because being nice is so rare nowadays that it's often confused with flirting

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>>17423620
It's the lack of a realistic outlook on things.
The nice guys that get friendzoned are more often than not shit tier in general.
They don't look good, have a good social standing, bad at socializing, etc.

The problem is that they don't know this.
They live in a deluded fantasy where they think the only thing that matters is being nice to someone. I blame the shitty hugbox method of raising kids for this. People keep telling their kids how they're great and capable of anything and they grow up with stupid expectations and zero introspection.
They don't realize that they're lacking in many other areas.

If they were really attractive they'd get laid quite easily but they think it's all about being nice.

>>17423620
To be fair friendzoning (and I mean real friendzoning), isn't bullshit. It's just BOTH the friendee and the friender are at fault.

Friendzoning happens when someone likes someone. Does nice things for that person to get into a romantic relationship with that person, but the person isn't interested in that someone in the same way. Then the friendee finally reveals their true feeling, then the friender says something like "I like you, but not in that way, let's just be friends", and then they keep hanging out. Boom friendzoned.

The friendee is at fault because they need to accept the relationship they want isn't going to happen, and they need to move on. The friender is at fault because they know how this person feels and are taking advantage of it (knowingly or unknowingly) and preventing them from moving on.

>>17428316
>you are lying to yourself
Nope. But you can believe what you want since you can't fathom being wrong.

>and you just ask to be paid in sex
No. I get disappointed when the women I attempt to court (not by being friendly but by telling them I like them or asking them out on a date) don't reciprocate. And I some level I do think they are missing out by not dating me, while at the same time respecting their decision. I know you're going to scoff at this, but plenty of people with good hearts and a lot to offer still get rejected.

>you don't understand what it means to be a good friend
Ask any of the people I've talked to at 1 in the morning about their problems what a bad friend I am.

>you belittle those who are not capable of giving you what you want
As if women do not do the exact same thing?

And yeah it's pretty lame when people act ungrateful, take you for granted, don't even acknowledge you when you do something for them or tell them you care about them. Then bitch and cry that they can't find a good guy and nobody cares about them. Holy shit.

>she's giving you the benefit of the doubt
What gets me in your whole post is how much you elevate the females position while lowering the males position. Your while post basically boils down to "women do no wrong".

Men's feelings don't matter. It doesn't matter how men feel during this it's about protecting women and their feelings at all costs.

You are either a huge fucking whiteknight or a woman. There's no other possibilities here.

>>17428655
You are right about that the reason they can'T appreciate those coins can largely be traced back to people generally associating dishonest and negative behaviors and social factors to these coins.
Cynics do have a point though. The vast majority of women are big hypocrites in this regard.