Probably the most deep and comlpex relationship out there.

Western adult woman and japanese teen boy are cuddling.

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>>161602008
Really complex.

>>161602008
>saves her
>she tries to save him
>he's indebted to her
>she's indebted to him

Yeah lot really that conplicated

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>>161602008
Not even the most complex in its series, let alone by its own author.

>>161604314
Did he rape her?

>>161604314
>Not even the most complex in its series
What is then?

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>>161602008
this shit is for girls but i love the character design and the overall story.
owari it's kinda boring so far, i hope it gets better.

>>161604600
>this shit is for girls
>harem with endless fanservice
What are you smoking?

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>>161604555
this is just yaoi in disguise.

>>161604514
We'll never know. Nisio never explains what actually happened between them. But from the way it's describe later, I doubt it.

>>161604551
Not saying it's a "better" relationship so I'm not here to start a waifu war, but Araragi and Hanekawa's relationship is certainly more complicated.

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>>161604654
>this is not for girls
dunno, i see a disconnection between the fanservice and the storytelling, but i guess you are correct.

>>161602008
In that series alone Araragi & Hanekawa's relationship is probably more complicated by the end of it, although maybe that's veering more into plain old retarded tier instead of being complicated.

Anime romance is typically shit though. They always go for lifeless autism-filled romances that hardly feel romantic and feature both sides just spacing each other out all story, like in OP's example, instead of an actual romance between two people are basically each other's closest friends. Guess the target audience just can't relate to the latter.

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>>161604314
This.

>>161604736
>They always go for lifeless autism-filled romances that hardly feel romantic and feature both sides just spacing each other out all story
There's more potential for drama in this set up, that's all. It's not that uncommon an opinion that the MC seems better with most of the other chicks he interacts with over the one/s he's with, that's not the point of the story though.

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>>161602008
Not even the best written by a japanese man

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>>161604663
I love it

>>161602180
While getting married

>>161604314
>Not even the most complex in its series
>His example:"Araragi and Hanekawa's"
Araragi and Shinobu's relationship is the most complex one out of all the relationships in Monogatari. Literally what are you trying to argue about?

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>>161606391
Araragi and Hanekawa's relationship is more complicated than Araragi and Shinobu's, though, due to the weird way they mutually put each other on pedestals prevents them from ever seeing eye to eye.

You're not giving a counterargument, you're just waifufagging. Honestly, I'd argue that Araragi/Shinobu is pretty damn straightforward.

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You guys are like little toddlers when it comes to deep and complex relationships. THIS is deep and complex relationship.

>>161602008
>japanese boy and her cuckquean
Really not complicated at all.

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>>161606728
I was thinking it, but I wasn't gonna say it.

>>161606743
>ESL

>>161602008
> that motherly embrace
T-thats my fetish

>>161606779
*his
Anyway, Araragi is such a manlet that he might as well be a girl, so I wasn't completely off.

>>161602008
I too want a 6'6'' blond vampire to lovingly embrace me

>>161604987
> in original script snake was supposed to drink milk from her breast

>>161606970
>Thx!
Please go back to MAL or wherever you came from.

>>161604736
>two people are basically each other's closest friends
But that's a good description of Araragi and Shinobu.

>>161605239
> they still fuck in the woods even both are married

>>161606970
Beatrice and Battler from Umineko No Naku Koro Ni.

>>161607050
>friends
Shinobu & Araragi do not consider each other as just friends. For Araragi, she is someone that is more than friends but less than lovers. He once said that Shinobu is more important to him than his very own heart. I always wonder how can such person within that category be the most important person to someone even to his//her own self? Is Araragi just mistaken and she is really more than a lover to him?

>>161607344
She's not. Araragi has pulled the same suicidal routine over basically all the other girls in his harem.

>>161607344
You kind of need to take into account that Shinobu and Araragi, for pretty much the entire series, were into a very specific situation. There aren't many like them around and their existence is inherently lonely. Before Araragi, Shinobu was alone. And without Shinobu, Araragi would be alone. And this loneliness goes beyond physical loneliness, they are or will eventually reach a disconnection from society, given that their nature isn't human. It's more or less the idea of being the last two humans in the world.
Thus, it makes sense for Araragi to say that he wouldn't mind to die if she died - if Shinobu dies, he is in for a lonely and vague endless torture. And if Araragi dies, Shinobu will need to go back to her own misery as a lonely being who eats humans.

>>161607050
>lifeless autism-filled romances that hardly feel romantic and feature both sides just spacing each other out all story
Nope, that definitely describes Araragi and Shinobu better. They're together because the story says they are, not because they come off as a convincing romance. I'm certain it's intentional too, like I said the target audience just prefers that sort of setup only good for creating melodrama and nothing else.

Before someone gets mad and calls me a Crabfag for some reason, his relationship with Senjougahara suffers from a similar thing too.

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>>161602008

>>161607344
>For Araragi, she is someone that is more than friends but less than lovers.
quoting half Kabuki quotes out of context
> "No but, I think you should not be so cold towards me. More than friends, but less than lovers, is that not how my existence is defined?"
> "I have no intention of being cold towards you, but I think you're completely wrong."
> "Then what am I to you?"
> "Don't ask such deep questions. Since we're using that as the theme after about four more novels."
He clearly says that she is completely wrong about that statement.

She is everything to him, he doesn't consider his life worth living if she dies. Their relationship is simply romantic, the only thing that makes it seemingly complex is because both of them are dancing around it not admitting it (to each other or themselves). You can see this when Shinobu goes into heavy denial about the first one and there being feelings involved, but loses the argument to Kanbaru. And Koyomi is still conflicted about her nature, and of course he is dating Hitagi (who he also loves, albeit less, but no conflicting feelings\history there) which only makes it weirder for him to admit it. But Ougi calls Seishiro his romantic rival, and now that everyone knows who Ougi is and where her knowledge comes from that statement should make it more then obvious.

>>161607463
There is a difference between risking your life for every person you care about and not wanting to live anymore if someone dies. Yes, he will risk his life for all of them. But the only person he says he can't live without is Shinobu.

>>161607907
Agree, his relationship with Kanbaru is closer to something with more chemistry.

>>161607523
>And without Shinobu, Araragi would be alone. And this loneliness goes beyond physical loneliness, they are or will eventually reach a disconnection from society, given that their nature isn't human.
Not really, he'd react the same sorta way as he did when Hachikuji retired from the story. He'll be heartbroken for about 10 minutes and then move on with his life because he still wants to keep on living, as much as he hates to admit it. Very literally what happened when he was seperated from Shinobu during the story. He was torn up over it and panicked, for a little while. Then moved on because he has shit too do, he doesn't completely disconnect from everyone around him and shut down like people here keep saying he would.

poser brigade

>>161606762
BEA-TO-REACH AROUND

>>161607951
I agree though I don't think he couldn't have something similar with Shinobu. Nisio's not writing their relationship to be that way because the typical way to do things in this genre is to go for the barely-even-a-romance romance between two autists.

>>161607907
I agree with this completely, though I'd argue that it's less about what the audience prefers and more about Nisio himself being shit at writing romance that develops in a natural way.

>>161606391
>Araragi and Shinobu's relationship is the most complex one out of all the relationships in Monogatari.
It's one of the most simple ones in the series, it's more that you guys aren't satisfied with what Koyomi's current set-up with his waifus are so you make a dozen threads every day arguing about it.

The "complex" part of it is Araragi's denial but that applies to almost all of his general relationships with other characters in this series.

>>161608011
Anon, the whole series is about the span of a year or so. Araragi and Shinobu are immortal beings, they will live on and on and on. He will keep living, everyday further away from society and humans, until he sees no ties at all. Just like Shinobu herself forgot she was human one day, he would too.
Shinobu is the thing that ties Araragi to reality, because she will too live with him forever, it's something that he will always go back to, something that will break his loneliness . And the reverse is also true for Shinobu, Araragi is what keeps her company, he is the one that she won't outlive.
Again, which is why they are fine about dying when the other does it, because they realize that life will eventually turns into a hell after their partner is gone.

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>>161608266
I think Nisio just prefers writing broken and depressing shit (but laced with tits, ass and lolis) over romance. Araragi's relationship with both Shinobu and Gahara are largely in the background for most of the series, they frame the story but only a handful of times do they ever become the main focus, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

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>>161602270
Thanks for the reminder I need to watch Tutu again

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>>161608369
I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive, though. Pic related is the best romance Nisio ever wrote and the whole point of it is that it crashes and burns.

Even Nisio himself knows he is bad at writing actual romance, he prefers to write something like the relationship between Araragi and Kanbaru.

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>>161608369
I'm fucking glad Shinobumonogatari ended up being a wacky supernatural murder mystery featuring half the main cast in it instead of another Shinobu Mail. I can get liking Bat or Crab as characters but for me the story is just infinitely more interesting and entertaining when muraragi-san is interacting with almost anyone else in the cast. Maybe I just dislike the way he handles 'actual romance', I dunno.

>>161608601
I am a batfag but I don't like Shinobu Mail either, that's just a boring arc. Although I really like Kabuki.

>>161608601
>half the main cast
According to the summaries it's just Araragi, Gaen, Shinobu, Hachikuji, Yotsugi, Kanbaru, Higasa, Kagenui, Gahara, Deathtopia and a couple new characters though. Which is still a lot now that I list them all out like that but not half the cast.

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It's certainly not the most complex in all of anime, but that's almost certainly bait to begin with. It's also not the most complex in Monogatari, either.

Hanekawa and Araragi, like others mentioned. Oikura possibly as well, but the actual most complex is Araragi and Ougi.

Araragi is the best written character in Monogatari by far, and Ougi is part of that. She's a personification of his own self loathing, his own hatred. She's sort of the inverse of a Shadow in Jungian Psychology, (featured prominently in Persona and done the best by NGE's Leliel) which is one's suppressed feelings given shape. That's a really shitty way of explaining it, but you get the idea. Ougi is the inverse of this idea; she's the personification of Araragi's negative emotions, yes, but Araragi's feelings of self loathing aren't supressed, they're his guiding action. It's literally his primary personality trait and the only thing that really makes him different from your standard milquetoast harem MC.

Ougi is a puppeteer guiding Araragi throughout the entirety of Owari 1. She's the one in control. But then in Owari 2, after solving most of his problems in life (finally getting his girlfriend to open up to him emotionally, getting into college) he's able to face her and, with the help of Meme, change her.

Ougi's own actions tell us a lot about Araragi even when they're not interacting. The most obvious of these is the reason that Ougi hates Hanekawa is because Ougi is the whole reason that Araragi never fucked Hanekawa to begin with. By telling her to fuck off later on, you could argue it's a metaphor for Araragi slowly getting over his own insecurities controlling his life (which is coincidentally what he's made every girl do) even without knowing it.

I'd also make the argument that Hanekawa and Hanekawa Black's (if that counts) and Senjougahara and Kaiki's (non-romantic) relationship are also much better written with much less screentime.

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>>161608601
I'm a Crabfag and I have to agree that her and Araragi's relationship is mostly boring to watch outside of Bake.

Shes at her best when interacting with either Hanekawa, her father, or Kanbaru. She just doesn't open up to Araragi enough and vice versa past Bake for me to call their relationship compelling.

Her talking with Kaiki for a while was also interesting but her and him not talking is more interesting.

>>161608899
I can't shake the feeling that Ougi was just all of Nisio's character notes about Araragi turned into it's own character.

>>161609130
Araragi definitely wasn't initially written with her in mind so I'd have to agree.

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>>161604314
>stinky girl who doesn't bathe and has greasy hair
>cute as a button
Goddammit Nisio stop making me feel conflicted

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>>161608601
Still waiting on art of the new girls Musubi introduced, now there are some more in Shinobu and that college friend of his sounds like someone who might stick around for a bit going by how fondly Araragi apparantly talks of her. We got some art of Deathtopia but that's it.

>>161609130
It's very possible but she adds a pretty interesting angle to Araragi's scenes nonetheless.

>>161607934
>More than friends, but less than lovers
I did not hear anything beside what Shinobu said so that was the only thing that stuck to me.
>I think you're completely wrong.
This part does not tell exactly what she is to him.

So, she is not a friend, is not between that and a lover and I doubt that it is family so it must be more than a lover. Even if I could deduce that, It is still better if he says that directly. We already see it through his actions but we never hear him put it into words aside from her being the most important/special person in the world to him.

That is a thorn in the side. It was really good that they finally ended the kissing dilemma they had on Mayoi when Araragi kissed Shinobu but I still need him to directly say that he loves her and hopefully Shinobu will say that she loves him too.

can't say I have a favorite girl in this series so far, I mean I like all of them really there isn't one that I can say "fuck this arc because of her".

>>161609377
>Stinky girl who doesn't bathe can be cute
Nisio is a genius

>>161607344
I'm talking about how they are also friends in addition to everything else. They joke around and have fun together instead of crab's thing of being almost entirely his lover and not really his friend.

>>161607907
How have you ignored all of their broing out over the course of the series? I know Shaft cut a lot, but not that much.

>>161604987
>any characterization and relationship writing past MGS2
>good
Great joke.

Ok so Idk if this is the right thread but, Im not making a new one.

I watched Bakemonogatari years ago when it first aired. Now theres like a fuckton of these shows.

Are they all related? should I watch them in order? I remember liking Bakemonogatari, are the others just as good?

>>161609963
>muh mgs2 is his magnum opus cuz some eceleb told me it was!

>>161610091
yes they are all related, watch them in the order they aired. the rest are good, might like them better than bake

>>161610091
Each Season feels pretty distinct to the others honestly.

>>161602008
>watches him walking crab home gently on every occasion
Yeah, well, really complex and deep.

>>161609892
I agree with that anon in the sense that they don't really feel like "friends" at all, more like they just skipped straight to the phase after that but the stuff before that phase is important to have there. It's even worse in Senjou's case though.

>>161609828
>They joke around and have fun together instead of crab's thing of being almost entirely his lover and not really his friend.
I really don't get what Shinobu & Araragi is talking about most of the time but I'm amazed that they are able to converse well. They talk about manga,anime,games,politics,economy and many more. Anime cuts a lot of them because they are just chit chat between two people. There are lots of 4th wall breaking as well. One of which is this. While they are talking about a lots of stuff that is not related to the series, Shinobu commented that the readers might get bored if they continue chatting about those stuff.

If what you meant is Shinobu is his "friend" besides being whatever, then I could agree.

>>161602008
Is there a name for an attraction to immortal/deity waifus like Shinobu, Holo or C.C.?

>>161610633
Yes, adolescence.

>>161610633
They are in the category of My Waifus.

>>161610633
Mary Sue Fetish?

>>161610472
That just sounds like standard Nisio dialogue.

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>>161610633
Good taste.

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>>161610633
It's fairly simple. Milffags like to yell MOMMY, and people like you get to call KAMI

>>161602008
OTP

>>161611888
Calm down, Shinobu.

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>>161602008
>Probably the most deep and comlpex relationship out there
I wouldn't call it that to be honest, but I guess their complexity can be explored a bit. It comes from the fact that they both don't really understand what they are to each other, despite vowing to die together and never separate. First off, Araragi is a huge hypocrite who can't move away from his inner self-centeredness. His initial wish to kill Shinobu doesn't come from the fact that people will die because of Shinobu and therefore it's bad. It comes from the fact that people will die because of him, that he will be the one responsible, because he, in his beautiful, as he calls it, act, selflessly sacrificed his life for her. So it's Araragi's inner wish to lift responsibility from himself, to run away from troubles he caused by saving someone, to kill that someone and therefore annihilate the problem. But what comes next? He wants her to live because she tried to sacrifice herself for him, he sees it as a beautiful act, a selfless deathwish and yet again sees his own responsibility in it. He is responsible both for her potential killings and her potential death at his hands. Being a huge hypocrite he is, he can't accept any of these ways. So he decides that the only way to go through it for him is to make everyone miserable. And he fucking likes it. And dislikes it at the same time. Or does he? He likes the fact that he saved Shinobu from death. But at the same time implies that they can't forgive each other. For what? Eating humans? No. For sacrificing herself, for making him potentially responsible for her death. So he ran away again? Ran away from being responsible for exorcising a vampire just because that vampire fell in love with him. That amazing hypocrisy in their relationship is still intact. He knows she wanted to sacrifice herself for him and loves her for it, but at the same time blames her for potentially making him responsible for her death. That unforgiveness isn't resolved yet

>>161612516
What the fuck did I just read?

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>>161612516
At the same time, Shinobu's view on things is twisted a little bit because of her vampiric nature. She's at first angry at Araragi because of how miserable she feels and how he ignored her wish to sacrifice herself for him, to have a worthy death for someone you love. Yet she seemed okay with making Araragi responsible for her death even after making him know she's dying intentionally, which yet again gets us back to the idea of hypocrisy. She wants to die for a person to live, yet she's okay with making that person responsible for her own death and therefore making him suffer because of it for the rest of his life. That's where Araragi can't forgive her. Or doesn't want to forgive intentionally, because he's possibly afraid of what they'd become after finally and fully reconciling. Araragi's problem also stems from the fact that he's a huge coward when it comes to his relationship with Shinobu. He never ever straightly admits it that he loves her and cares about her the most. And when she actually tells him she's now ready to forgive him, he practically laughs it off and tells her it's to early for that. Too early? His decision to forgive her is already there, he just can't accept that inner forgiveness, he's not ready, he's afraid of what will come next, he doesn't know where their relationship will go to from this point. That's another instanse of his hypocrisy. He implies that he didn't forgive her and tries to convince her it's a serious question, yet at the same time he's actually afraid of making this decision. He convinces himself that the time will come eventually, after hundreds of years. He wants to have both human and vampiric life because of his self-centeredness, his uncertainty of what is the right thing to do. He's disgusted with her eating humans yet doesn't want to kill her. He's in love with her and values her more than his heart, yet doesn't want to admit it. He's already forgiven her, yet doesn't want to voice it. It's all hypocrisy

>>161610133
>celebs
Go back to school, kid. MGS3 started all the retardation that eventually killed MGS from the story/character perspective.
>muh Boss
>everybody is related
>no research done, "Russian" text is literal gibberish
>bullshit biblical symbolism

>>161613136
I didn't feel they had such a complicated relationship before I read your post. 4deep2me

>>161613080
That is an example of how the mind of a girl works. The more you try to read them, the more you get confused.

>>161613850
That anon is just saying that Araragi is a coward self-centered hypocrite and Shinobu is also a hypocrite herself. Their whole relationship is also tainted in hypocrisy Regardless, they really love each other but would not say..

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>>161613136
>>161612516
Anon. What the fuck is wrong with you, you ape?

>>161614808
What's wrong?

>>161614808
Although it's fucking long but makes some sense about their relationship.

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>>161614853
Not only is it wordier than the entirety of Bake there's no fucking paragraphs

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>>161602008

Consider this

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Watch more anime, this relationship alone put the series on the map

>>161614808
Wall of text != bad. It's on topic and at least decently accurate.

>>161615195
Rule 1 in writing, make paragraphs.

>>161615302
I got exactly 3999 characters with these two posts. Can't go more than 2000 on one, so no paragraphs, fuck off

>>161615400
Splitting up for clarity is better than trying to pack everything into a giant block.

>>161614457
I think Shinobu has been shifting away from being a hypocrite herself and towards just going along with Araragi's. It's still there, just way, way less.

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>>161602008
>just got to the end of bake

From how you guys talk about this show it better be fucking amazing. I really like what I've seen so far but there's no way I can believe it'll live up to the hype I've built up about it.

>>161616387
As someone who's a big fan of the series, don't get your expectations too high. It's an entertaining series with compelling characters and better than a lot of shit out there, but it's not any kind of masterpiece.

>>161616387
You may end up loving it, but going in expecting a masterpiece is just setting yourself up for failure.

>>161615164
Fujoshit

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>>161615084

>>161606622
Both of them thinking the other is too good for them is about as complicated as 2+2.

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>>161604987
Snake and the Cardboard box.

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>>161604600
What's up with this guy

>>161602008
Are subs out yet?

>>161617854
Crunchyrips? Sure.

>>161602180
hot

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>>161602008
Kiss-shot a best.

>>161622477
Shinobu definitely thought up that line months in advance and had just been looking for the right moment to use it.

>>161622555
Maybe she was using the whole Bake time to come up with this line and the load of words she said during bath scene.

>>161623412
I think she started planning the Nise bath conversation just after Bake ended. That was when she had decided to make up with him. She realized just how important Araragi is to her after Kabuki and probably started dreaming up her response to his vow around then.