Post anime films on par with the best of cinematography

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I miss him.

Bungaku Shoujo

>>159624045
>you will never see the last project he was working on

>>159624161
Shit

>>159623993
Easy mode: no Oshii

>>159624902
You have to be delusional to think Oshii isn't a great director.
Although I do agree I don't think that's a hard mode, to find other directors better/on par with him.

>>159624938
Great is a strong word.

>>159624938
Kon was an amazing technical director, framing, color theory, compositions. Whereas Oshii is much more a visual poet, symbolism packed in everything he does. Really a matter of what you value more.

EoE

>>159625283
Explain paradox spiral, I've come across so many that hail it as one of the best stories ever yet can't even explain what is in the film. All seems like babbel trying to sound smart.

>>159625198
>not accepting that Oshii is one of the greatest directors to ever live
GITS, Patlabor 2, Angel's Egg, Jin-Roh, Beautiful Dreamer, with the acception of a few flops he only produces absolute masterpieces.

>>159625284
Truly one of the greatest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz49vQwSoTE

>>159625376
The Tetralemma is a spiral that closes in on itself, and dissolves reality with it, and in the process only then can Ultimate Knowledge be known, or the lack of it. A Tetralemma is a Buddhist mental scape, starting with a Proposition, and expounds on the possible truth-values of such propositions. Commonsensically a Proposition has only two truth-values, that of Truth and Falsity. There are two more. The value that verifies both Truth and Falsity, and the value that denies both. The negative Tetralemma, then, is the spiral that, after dissolving reality, wraps around on itself, and extinguishes itself into the more than unknown.

We can consider Kara no Kyoukai, and for that matter the works of Kinoko Nasu, to be based around a Tetralemmic structure of reality, which compounds into an Aegis that denies the postulate while simultaneously affirming it. The form, for example, of Male and Female, juxtaposed onto each other into monstrosity, then it acts upon itself to deny itself of the Male, and returns to the Female. But there is a side that denies both, and that is the Boundary of Emptiness, oblivion, and the deep hole of Nothingness that lies on the other side.

Likewise the Tetralemma, the self-denying spiral, that takes its roots between affirming and denying itself, balances the world, although, as many in their cowls and robes would state, the entirety eventually falls into that state of Sunyata which none can escape and the no-self is the reign. Any concrete truth, as Araya is soon to realize, is a falsity, even the one that states that concrete truth has to be denied. That is the nature of the Tetralemmic consumption. Which is why a Counter-Force acts against Araya, even though the latter seeks to affirm the Tetralemma.

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>>159623993
The greatest anime director who ever lived, Yamada.

>>159625736
what's with /a/'s hate-boner for Yamada?

memories

>>159625856
/a/ loves Yamada. Don't listen to contrarians.

>>159625283
you're delusional if you think this looks good

>>159625680
All I gleamed from this is that it's a set of dichotomies. Things that "are" and "are not". That seems to be such a broad concept with no concrete meaning or intrinsic value. Unless you'd say the value is there and also not there, which is fucking stupid.
I genuinely think Nasu is a terrible writer and he doesn't understand half of what he makes.

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>>159625736
Oh boy, I sure love chromatic abberation and blur: The Director.
Not even the best director at KyoAni.

>>159626469
Kyoani is pretty mediocre.

>>159626495
Kyoani is pretty shit

>>159626609
They have a few good scenes now and then. There is much worse stuff out there.

only posers care about studios

>>159626495
>>159626609
>>159626673
It's not about the studio, it's about the director you fucking retards.

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>>159626715
This. I don't understand why /a/ is so obsessed with studio wars.
The only thing needed for a good show/film is a a great director + good writing.

>>159626725
The directors of Kyoani are pretty mediocre then.

MindGame is pretty great. Can't wait to see Lu and Otoko

0 wallpapers per microsecond

>>159626783
Ishihara is a good director. Not amazing, but good enough for feel-good/drama films.

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Cagliostro has some really nice shots throughout, but I love the opening credits segment.

>>159626715
Yeah, that's why OP started the thread with just films.

>>159626785
Me too. Yuasa really is top-tier.

>>159626895
Yuasa is the Yuasa of our generation. What a time to be alive.

Honneamise

>>159625680
Hey, while you are at it would you explain that Alana-Banana thing to someone who doesn't know anything about Buddhism.

>>159625680
ban posercore

>>159626469
Man, the station ticket scene. God that was good.

>>159627541
pseud

>>159627541
Why are you posting on /a/ right now?

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>>159626837
You kinda seem to agree with me here.

>>159626759
>>159626725
>director plans the project
>director decides how much money is going into the project
>director decides who to outsource to
>director does the marketing and advertising
>director decides who will be working on the project
>director tells everyone how to animate
>director animates
>director does the key animation
>director does the in-betweens
>director does the backgrounds
>director does the CG
>director does the character design
>director takes the reference photos
>director writes the script
>director makes sure the project is done in time
>director casts the voice actors
>director makes the music
>director picks which popular musicians will be involved in the project
>director does the audio mixing
>director always has full creative control over project
there are some directors that indeed do a handful of these tasks, but you're fucking retarded if you think they're the only ones who are important

>>159628304
An anime can have all of the things you've just mentioned, and yet still be utter shit because the director/writers are trash.

>>159628443
holy fucking shit it's like you read all that with your brain off

>>159626469
Nothing of that is cinematic or even good directed, just nice backgrounds.

Space Adventure Cobra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvcUHphENxk

>>159628304
The director directs. His job is to coordinate all of the things that involve the actual production including most of the things you listed. He is the guy who holds all of the pieces, whatever they are, and decides what to do with them. If your director has no creative vision then it doesn't matter how much money you put into him.

>>159628526
UH what? I'm not wrong though, the director/writers are the most important part to the project. They are the determining factor.

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>>159628304
You do know the director makes all the decisions about the things you've just listed though, right?

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>>159628544
yeah, Dezaki is the master.

>>159628645
>>159628589
do either of you even know what the fuck a producer/production company is?

>>159628722
I really hope you aren't implying the producer is the key to a film's success.

>>159628722
The producers decide where to invest their money. They have the final say but most of the time they are not artists. They just want to make something that sells.

>>159626396
>Things that "are" and "are not". That seems to be such a broad concept with no concrete meaning or intrinsic value. Unless you'd say the value is there and also not there, which is fucking stupid.
This is pretty much an accurate description of Nasu's writing

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>Satoshi Kon is dead

>>159624807
You're wrong

>>159629080
For you

>>159628816
there is no fucking "key" to a film's success. there are roles that are more important than others and "director" is indeed one of those, but if you remove multiple people from the project, you've already made it several times worse. the producer is only one of them, and in case you didn't fucking realize it, without a producer, not only do you not have a director, you have no project.

>>159628849
that's a stupidly common oversimplification of the process. the director is indeed supposed to have control over artistic ideas, but they have absolutely no say in managing the business. the producer may indeed have no interest in making something that sells, but at the end of every anime you see something different but similar to a producer, a "Production Committee". these people supervise the creation of the anime, and have full control over everything, so much that directors like the moron Yamakan have complained about this publicly. there is no reason to assume that these people do nothing but give money to a series, because if they really wanted to make money, they're going to have a plan to make money that's more complex than "toss money at people".

>>159629760
>they're going to have a plan to make money that's more complex than "toss money at people"
Yeah, the plan is actually "hire competent people and then toss money at them".
We are talking about artistic value in this thread, not about business.

>>159629760
I never realised before this thread but those who are obsessed with just directors can be just as obnoxious and ignorant as those who still think anime is made by studio X like it is one homogeneous being.

>>159629967
But in most productions the producers actually have significant input into the end product in the artistic sense. You are going to have to be a pretty important name to get complete artistic freedom. Even Oshii has complained about being unable to get his projects funded in anime.

>>159626715
Nice grammar.
The ones who aren't just shitposting about it are victims on the worst thing humanity has gone through since its inception, tribalism. It is incredibly easy to falsefalg any side into oblivion even more so on an anonymous image board. You have extreme examples in sports, videogames, and just about everything about consumerism. Letting this shit on /a/ screams crossboarder, the shitposters take advantage of it since it's so easy.

>>159623993
The obvious directors would be Miyazaki, Takahata and Kon. I really like Oshii, but I wish he did more outside of genre stuff.

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why has no one posted the best looking anime film of all time?

>>159630232
Studio wars have been part of /a/ for like eight years now

>>159630114
>But in most productions the producers actually have significant input into the end product in the artistic sense.
I don't disagree with that. There are many factors. Everyone from the producers to the inbetweeners is important for the quality of the final product.
But it's a director's JOB to coordinate the creative output. If the producers are going to veto everything he says then they might just as well fire him.

The final look and feel of the work largely depends on the creative vision of the director. If a producer doesn't like that vision they should better hire a new director.

Producers, directors, animators all leave their mark on the final product but their input is different.
We are discussing directors right now.
Are you trying to say that directors are not important at all for the final quality of the product? That directors don't have their trademarks and are fully controlled by the producers.

Directors are important and have their own style, just like studios, just like individual animators. What's wrong with discussing any of those?

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>>159628708
Wish he got to work on more movies and OVAs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLzjm9E1hwg

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Does /a/ like Metropolis? It's nice animation porn.

>>159630869
It does look good. Didn't like the movie, but I plan on rewatching it.

>>159630584
The point being made was that a director can have all the vision they want but it's never going to amount to anything without the right people in the other positions. Nobody is downplaying the importance of a director here just stating that there are plenty of other important determining factors such that saying "it's not the studio that matters it's INSERT ANY POSITION HERE that matters" is a gross oversimplification.

If you take Flip Flappers as an example the show is unmistakably Oshiyama. However the idea started off as a kind of space opera where the two girls would go through portals and explore worlds. Then it changed to different dimensions because of Space Dandy basically having literally just done that. The producers requested that the whole action battle, transformations and weapons thing was added in having a huge influence over the style of the show. Then the writer had to be changed midway through and so on. A lot of things are going to be outside of the directors control in something as complex as anime production.

>>159630869
Does it have anything to do with Fritz Lang's 1927 Metropolis? Because I love that movie

>>159631129
>flip flappers or space dandy
>space opera
retard

>>159631202
Not in any meaningful way, I think it was inspired by like, the poster for Lang's movie as opposed to the movie itself.

>>159631218
I'm using the directors words for what the original idea was and never said Space Dandy or Flip Flappers were Space Opera shows.

>>159631367
Tfw End of Eva makes less and less of an impact on me the more films I watch
It used to be my Magnum Opus of favorite films, now I'm not sure if I still love it.

>>159631202

It's inspired by it. Worth watching for some of the best animation you'll ever see and a really nice old school art direction.

>>159631129
Well, I also disagree with the guys that say that the only thing that matters is the director. I was just saying that the director is very important for the majority of the things you listed and in particular how they work in the final product.
For example a producer can say "No, we want this super popular voice actress to voice our main heroine" but the director decides what to do with this voice actress in order to make her fit in his project.

>>159631202
If you are in for the retro futuristic aesthetic you might like it.

>>159630869
>>159631202
It's garbage, especially next to the original.

>>159623993
>Oshii
He takes source material and makes it worse. People praise him because he pumps a ton of scenery porn into things. Angel's Egg was great but that's it.

>>159631762
That's an extremely lame take

>>159631762
But the first Patlabor movie is the best part of that franchise

>>159631762
I feel bad that you don't connect with Oshii's amazing films. The visual porn isn't just nice scenery, it's layered symbolism. Whether about existentialism, society, or freedom. Never take anything from someone like Oshii at face value.

>>159631611
Yeah sure, given starting conditions X from a producer how the director runs with that is going to be up to them that doesn't negate the obvious influence on the final product the producer is having though. And further to that the directors idea for what to do with that could just be rejected or changed. A director doesn't just get told make this and then get left alone to do as they please. The amount of intervention thereafter is going to entirely depend on the production, producers involved and director.

>>159632109
i liked the first movie a lot, but i wasn't enjoying it for about the first third of the movie. i also hated the second movie, although that's probably because i went into it expecting a Patlabor movie and came out having gotten something entirely different. Early Days is my favorite because i loved every almost every episode.

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>>159625346
> robot childrens movie
> on par with the likes of the sopranos

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The best directors of anime

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>>159628544
Didn't reall like the movie. The series is way better and the VA of cobra too

>>159630680
>golgo the professional

My favorite movie right there.

>>159632818
what's the first one in tomino's row ?

>>159632681
I absolutely loved the second film. I didn't care for the comedy in Early Days and the first film just felt like a more climactic, longer episode. Movie 2 is such a departure, skipping climactic fights in favor of slow dialogue and character drama. Theres also the entire part with it being analogy about Japanese society at the time and freedom but that's another discussion.

>>159623993

>Post anime films on par with the best of cinematography

Well that's easy-

>no Oshii

Goodbye

>>159630869
its all style no substance. i'll admit tho thats usually not enough to keep me watching but i ended up finishing this bc everything about the world was so fucking cool

>>159633059
>all style no substance meme
Opinion discarded.

>>159633248

The movie was fairly generic in story and characters were paper thin. Animation was godlike enough to keep me watching it.

>>159633248
You can interpret that as "looked good but the story sucked" you know

>>159632544
>A director doesn't just get told make this and then get left alone to do as they please.
In theory that is pretty much his job resumee. In practice this is not always so, but I guess being able to stand your own ground is just as much an integral part of being a good director as anything.

>>159631762
>He takes source material and makes it worse.
I agree with this actually but his movies are fine and interesting for what they are.

>>159633059
>its all style no substance
Until you realise that style is substance. Nobody critiques music for only sounding good. Sounding good is the point of music, as is looking good for a movie/show.

>>159632818
Arion was one of the most boring movies I have ever watched

>>159633719
>Sounding good is the point of music, as is looking good for a movie/show
This works for a film art piece, but not for a movie trying to tell a story. When trying to tell a story on film, you can't only look good

>>159633719
That doesn't make any sense, there are many aspects to film besides appearance.

>>159633719
A movie is a multimedia project.

>>159632501
Any kid fresh out of art school can take a at-the-time oft talked about event or concern and slap a bunch of symbolism-laden imagery around it if they had the budget and staff/connections Oshii had. Creating an actually endearing cast of characters (in a largely episodic story with little running plot at that) is way more impressive than anything Oshii does there.

The Patlabor movies aren't that notable or great, both compared the franchise it's based on or even compared the rest of Oshii's own work.

Art for the sake of art is a fallacy. There's no such thing, anything created with the intention of being art is inherently valuable. Although it is true that certain aspects of art, like introspection are worth more than thing like style- which is expressionism.

>>159634085
What does this have to do with the thread

>>159634085
Are you aware that nothing you just wrote makes any sense?

>>159634143
"All style no substance" argument up above

>>159625659
Not on pair with best, but it would be a pretty decent 80th-early 90th blockbuster.

>>159633892
The real point he should be making is that "style" and "substance" are one in the same. That is to say that the appearance/visual aspect of an animation tells the story as much as any dialogue or soundtrack and any well made piece of animation should be using the visual to tell the story in a way that is cohesive and enhances the story it is trying to tell.

What people who really say "all style no substance" should say is just it looked good but the story was weak. The phrase "all style no substance" downplays the importance of the visual element as if it is merely window dressing when in fact it is integral and just as much at the centre of any well made animation in the way it tells the story.

>>159634190
Oh, well your post was retarded either way

>>159634300
I think pretty well everyone knows what the expression means, I don't get the point in playing ignorant in order to reiterate that looking good matters

>>159634402
I really don't think they do and a lot of people intentionally use it to dismiss the visual aspect of the medium.

>>159634345
Thanks Senpai, I'll work on being less retarded. It's just some artsy shit about the value of art from some French guy who thought art itself in the pursuit of beauty is valuable enough as is, no need for anything else, and why that is a wrong way to think.

>>159634491
Sure, I was more referring to the rest of your post. Just nonsense

So do any of these amazing directors come close to what Kurosawa did in stuff like Ran or Kagemusha in terms of framing, composition and so on?

>>159634460
Style is not only visuals. Any technical aspect of the creative process is style. "All style no substance" means exactly what it says.

>>159634460
I could be wrong, then. Either way it's a tired argument

>>159634627
I don't think you browse /a/ very much if you haven't seen the way the phrase is used here enough to understand that is how people use it regardless of what you think the meaning is.

>>159634618
I mean that stuff is all very preference based, but sure I think the best directors I'm anime at least compare to the canonical best of live-action

Perfect Blue has better editing than the majority of Oscar winners

>>159634682
I was thinking the exact same thing to be honest. In a minute there is going to be an argument about "objective" and "subjective" evaluations of art at this rate that will thoroughly derail into a debate of epistemology completely abstracted from the initial topic.

>>159634778
One of the few pieces of media I'll gladly watch again and again. A true horror film that reminds me of the creepiness and unsettling atmosphere in The Shining. It's a shame Kon died, I never watched a thing he did and didn't walk away absolutely loving it.

>>159626785
They use flash animation though.
I like Yuasa but it's a shame that he has to gravitate towards a cheaper method

even paprika, my least favorite of kon's stuff had absolutely amazing editing

everything he's worked on is so compulsively watchable, it's hard to explain. The edits make it so easy to watch his movies

>>159635037
Really is a shame, I miss Yuasa's animator days. The style of his Crayon Shin-chan stuff and Mind Game is the best of its kind

>>159634707
>le "you must be a newfag" argument
People use it to dismiss shows they didn't like, not to dismiss the visual aspect of the medium.

>>159635037
Flash animation doesn't mean anything. It's just a tool used for animation with which many animations in the industry literally draw frame by frame animation that on the surface would be very difficult to tell apart from any piece of hand drawn animation. What you are specifically concerned with here is visual appearance created by the use of Flash to produce in-between animation and vectorise key animation.

>>159635244
Yes it's "just a tool" and yes it's technically possible for it to be indistinguishable from regular animation, but I think a lot of people, myself included, will always gravitate towards something more "hand made"

>>159635491
There is nothing necessarily more handmade about something being on paper than something being animated in Flash.

There are real concerns about Flash but they shouldn't be that it is Flash. It should be the fact that Flash is being used to generate inbetweens and to vectorise key animation which gives it a very distinctive look and feeling that is what most people call "flash animation".

Digital animators using flash happens all over the industry right now today and nobody ever calls it out because it is almost always indistinguishable from what their colleague do because they are doing the exact same thing. Drawing each frame, one after the other the traditional way.

The difference with Yuasa's new films is that he is intentionally pushing into using the "Flash" aesthetic and doing things like utilizing its ability to generate inbetweens for shots that would be difficult to impossible to animate by hand and vectorising key animation so it is much easier to manipulate afterwards. That is something you can see and feel the difference in and something you can be critcal of without sounding dumb.

Just saying "its Flash animation and thats bad" however sounds dumb.

>>159635790
I'm just saying I don't care for it, you don't need to defend its honour like that

>>159635170
>>159635491
Nobody complained about Ping Pong looking like shitty flash animation.

>>159636034
Speak for yourself and yourself only, please

>>159623993
Oshii
Kon
Ikahara
Miyazaki
Yuasa
Yamamoto
Anno
Ikuhara
>>159631367
Pretty much the best of them all, even better that Evangelion in general just gets better with every rewatch. There's more ideas/minute than in anything else I've seen so far in any visual media.

>>159636030
I'm not defending anythings honour. I am informing you that the way you are positing your problem with it is dumb. Thinking Flash animation is bad because it is Flash is on the same level of dumb as saying anime isn't hand drawn because its being drawn on a tablet rather than a piece of paper. As in there is no difference.

I mean I assume you do hate Flash because of the kinds of feeling it can give to the animation when used in the way I have discussed right? You don't just arbitrarily hate it because its Flash?

>>159636192
Again, I never said it's bad and I never said that I hate it. Analog methods just mean more to me.

>>159636255
Oh you are genuinely just dumb then.

>>159636309
Hey man, apologize

>>159636374
That was kind of mean. I just think it is dumb to think using a pencil and piece of paper to draw a drawing makes that drawing inherently more valuable because it is a pen and piece of paper when doing it digitally is the same work and just as much effort.

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>>159632754
>Sopranos
>good

>>159636508
It's more effort. In fact to draw really well on a tablet, you first have to learn how to draw really well on paper.

>>159636508
Thanks, i wouldn't say the effort is equal though, and it hardly all comes down to effort.

>>159632754
Sopranos has nowhere near the amount of creativity Evangelion had despite being eight times longer.

>>159636034
The number of scenes where tweening was noticeably bad was about equal to the scenes where it was used well

>>159625534
He didn't direct Jin-Roh

>>159625534

Angel's egg doesn't deserve a single word of praise other than for its atmosphere. Its animation isn't nearly as impressive as I often hear.

>>159630869
First 95% of the movie is like a 6/10 but that ending is fantastic

>>159636754
What makes you think drawing lines on a tablet takes different amount of effort to drawing lines on a piece of paper?

Explain what it is that you think makes drawing on paper more valuable.

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>>159623993

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>>159637242
Takahata is uses quite simple compositions, but is very poignant.

>>159637025
As far as effort goes, digital tools offer a lot in the way of convenience, do they not? I think it's pretty measurably easier or more efficient to work with digital than analog. As far as why I think it's more valuable, I won't bother because I'm not very eloquent and a lot of it boils down to gut feeling

>>159637332
Paper and pencil to me does have more value because it must actively be preserved. Efforts naturally must be made to ensure digital materials are archived as well, but files can be easily copy and back ups made.
Think about how many cells of animation have been lost because a studio simply washed them for use in a new feature.

>>159637799
Yeah, stuff like that. Mistakes are more penalizing too, when you can't undo, easily erase or copy and paste. The whole analog process just strikes me as less perfect, more intimate, which I like.

>ctrl+f nagai
>0 results
I see no one here actually have distinct taste.

>>159625283
One would have to look far and wide for more obvious,
and yet ultimately meaningless cinematography

God I hate the KnK series of "movies"

>>159628538
>Kyon's monologue
>giving back the club application form
>the stabbing
>"not cinematic or good (sic) directed"

Anon pls.

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>nobody's posted this yet
For shame.

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>>159631463
I can relate, but it'll always have a special place in my heart.

Also, I've come to appreciate Anno's raging hard-on for symmetry the more I rewatch his stuff.

>>159639523
Maybe read the fucking thread first, ok?

>>159639602
if it doesn't come with an image, it doesn't fucking count

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>>159639643
Literally where is the logic here? I don't see it.

>>159639690
He's right

>>159639954
but he's not. It would've been better to say that it didn't count because a tripfag posted it

>>159636560
fight me, The Sopranos is the GOAT

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Tekkon

>>159625376
I might be wrong, but I'll explain what the Paradox Spiral is as best I can.

The actual spiral refers to an apartment building designed around a spiral. Half of the spiral contains the bodies of the dead residents. The other half contains their souls which now occupy synthetic bodies (dolls). Their souls are all recycled through their preserved brains kept in the basement. The tenants repeat the last day of their lives, over and over, dying each night. Through creating this dichotomy and constantly repeating the cycle of life and death through false bodies, the goal of the paradox spiral is to reach the "root" or the source of everything, which is the goal of magic in the FS/N universe. Basically, the building itself confuses reality in order to tear a hole in to get to the root.

What makes Paradox Spiral good is about its exploration of all of these cool repetitions in our lives, it's awesome depiction of what it means to be alive through Tomoe and Aoi, how we exist sort of out of time with one another, what it means to connect, or to have been. It also addresses a lot of the themes of KnK, uses all of the exposition, powerfully, and has all of the background work out of the way, so it can be amazing the entire time. The paradox spiral is used as a metaphor about all of these contradicting things in our lives which are true.

It is, quite frankly, pretty fucking deep. There is a lot you can get out of it, a lot of different ways of watching it and understanding it, many different ideas to focus on, it's beautifully animated, the visual direction is great, voice acting superb. Hope some of this helps.

>>159632754
Reddit get out