Shirou and Gilgamesh had no history or connection with each other,

>(You)

Nobody insists that

>>154599153
It's better than Heaven's Feel.

>>154599227
on one hand you have the most caster in ubw but on the other you have the most rider on heaven's feel, good thing HA exist.

>>154598668
Is a long and complicated history absolutely necessary for making a truly meaningful fight?

>>154599227
This.
Sakura ruined HF.

>>154598668
What are you talking about?

The whole point of Shirou vs Gil was that it was the proving ground for Shirou's desire to be a hero.

"Who says a fake can't surpass the original?" isn't about projections vs Noble Phantasms, it's about Shirou convincing himself that it doesn't matter that he's just copying Archer and Kiritsugu's desires to be heroes.

By defeating Gil, something that Archer could never do, Shirou proves to himself that he can become better than Archer and Kerry were.

>>154599878
>muh sakura

Nah, HF is the the best route by far. Throwing away childish ideals for the sake of the one you love is way better than "muh hero of justice".

>>154600302
Rather than Archer and Kerry, Gil is a real hero, the original one.

>>154598668
>the fight lacked meaning

Original vs Faker.

>>154598668
Shirou's win was BS. "but gilgamesh lost to a highschooler because he was arrogant lmao"

>>154598668
Do they need to be long lost lovers or something for a fight to be good?

>>154600548
The climax was Shirou vs Emiya, the rest just felt like filler.

Zero > UBW.

>>154600302
But he didn't beat Gil. Archer and Angra had to save his ass at the last second.
So he didn't prove anything in the end.

I thought UfoTable's UBW was much worse than Deen 2006's FS/N.

Does Op not understand the concept of a dramatic foil?

GIRUGAMESH~

>>154601277
Why's that? Didn't like the story?

>>154598668
This whole fight was utter horseshit, it completely ruined the entire route.

By having a fuck with Rin, a high schooler is now able to stand toe-to-toe with a servant of Gilgamesh's level? Pfft.

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>>154604267
Im gonna take your bait because I feel like bantering tonight

The whole point is that Shirou and EMIYA are the only ones who can actually counter Gilgamesh because of their UBW. UBW is literally the most perfect counter to Gate of Babylon. Have countless noble phantasms being fired at you like arrows? Fire countless copies of those noble phantasms right back at them and deflect them.

So yes, by having a fuck with Rin, Shirou was able to project so many noble phantasms against Gilgamesh.

Also kill yourself for making me type this when I have studying to do

Why didn't shirou trace on Ea

>>154600302
He never defeated Gil.
Gil was just outright stupid. Had he worn his armor, he won't lose an arm. Not to mention everything he has in his arnesal

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>>154598668
>Gilfags are STILL mad

>>154605050
Because he's dense as a metal.

>>154598668
Because it's the only one with a good anime adaptation.

>>154598668
Because of the red man.

>>154600548

Yet the most famous legend of Gil's is "But Gilgamesh got ousted by a snake because he was arrogant lmao"

>>154605008

It's not like Shirou outright says "If it were any other servant I'd lose for sure, but the one magic Emiya Shirou has can defeat you" or anything.

Some people, man. Good luck with your studies.

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>Proto Arthur has just become more relevant player than Artoria (Vanilla) in Nasu's core Fate story

How does it feel?

Shirou is the exact kind of person Gilgamesh wanted to see rise up from the ashes of the destruction he planned.

It just so happened that they were on opposite sides of the conflict, and that Shirou's powers were the kind of thing that triggered Gil

>>154610307
What happened?

>>154610307

The same way I've always felt: "Prototype VN with routes for Saber, Lancer, Archer, and Rider when?"

>>154598668
>Shirou and Gilgamesh had no history or connection with each other

Did you miss the whole "Real v Fake" analogy that ran throughout UBW?

Gilgamesh represents "real". He owns his weapons and his ideology is his own.

Shirou represents "fake". All of his powers in the forms of the weapons he projects are copies from someone else. His ideology is simply inherited without any real deeper meaning from Kiritsugu.

Despite Shirou being the embodiment of "fake", the route is at pains to point out that just because something is a copy that it does not make it inferior. Shirou fighting and overcoming Gilgamesh is to highlight this theme entirely.

Maybe you just suck at reading comprehension. UBW has been out as a route for over 10 years. You could have easily googled this shit you mongoloid.

>>154610348
Arthur was given a grand order (by Solomon) and Solomon's wish. The only other entrusted with something similar is your self-insert. Roman set up your meeting with him after his death.
He also can time travel and jump dimensions. Zelretchfags got even more BTFO as they were.
His Excalibur was confirmed never unleashed its true power, too.

Apparently he spends his after Britian fall days world saving mode rather than sleep in Avalon as Artoria.

>>154600548
Gilgamesh being an arrogant fuckwit is a well established trait in his original epic you silly fuck.

>>154606078
>Had he worn his armor, he won't lose an arm.

Would you put on a bullet proof vest to go out and swat a fly? No, you wouldnt.

Same analogy can be applied here. Why would Gil armour himself against something that he never believed could have posed even a tiny threat to him?

>>154610379
Don't forget Excalibur was also confirmed weaker than Goetia. Even Arthur's which is stronger and also has the same function (Roman told him he couldn't prevent or fight the incineration).

So Goetia >>>> Sefar.

>>154600450
HF is hot garbage. The theme of "stop being idealistic and accept your shit reality" might be enjoyed by some but by and large its a negative and pessimistic message.

>>154610451
He didn't have a reason to wear his armour in Fate route, yet he wore it. Didn't have a reason to wear it through *all* of Zero, yet he wore it.

>>154610502
>He didn't have a reason to wear his armour in Fate route, yet he wore it

Yes he fucking did. He was going after Saber. He is very much aware of her skill and ability.

>>154606078
No he wouldn't he'd have lost because the story calls for that.

>>154606078
Gilgamesh even admits that Shirou defeated him. He won the battle but lost the war.

>>154610479
The thing is that his ideal was shit and was going to force him to throw away his great reality with the one he truly loved. Kiritsugu and Archer both realized it was bullshit in the end, so the thematic conclusion is for Shirou to grow out of the ideal and become an actual functioning human being before it's too late.

>>154610379
Does Second Magic even exists when everyone can time travel and dimension jump as if was some kind of easy shit?

>ITT fatefags claiming HF is the best route because there's no anime adaption yet, making it the only possible route to feel elitism over

>>154610529
>shows up wearing his armour
>skewers Caster, smashes Saber into the earth with Ea
>Shirou does some annoying bullshit, Gil gets bored and leaves
saber is surely the key to all of this

>>154610583
>functioning human being

He became a puppet with a borked personality and a body that doesnt work

Sounds like "functioning" to me

>>154610657
You mean as compared with a hollow empty man who never fixes himself and is doomed to die like a machine as in UBW?

>>154610583
UBW shirou is a perfectly functioning person, he just still believes in something.

>>154610657
Sounds like somebody neither read HF nor KnK. Touko's "puppets" are pretty much perfect body replacements.

>>154598668
Here's your (you), secondary-kun. Now fuck off.

>>154610676
Did you somehow completely miss the fact that even archer never truly became that machine he describes himself as?

He was described as being happy even when he died. It was only afterwards when he had to go do that whole counter guardian thing that he became scornful and bitter. And UBW shirou is going to be living a much healthier life.

>>154610684
>UBW shirou is a perfectly functioning person
Literally the entire plot revolves around how he isn't that. He just covers his ears and refuses to do anything about it until HF.

>>154610712
No, the plot was that he wasn't being functional and then over time he makes a reconciliation of himself and his ideals.

UBW is reconciliation
HF is abandonment.

>>154610740
And Kiritsugu and Archer showed why abandoning it is the only reasonable option. The ideal's fundamentally fucked.

>>154610676
That doesnt happen though.

>>154610689
>perfect replacements
>body dies or something if he doesn't receive huge amounts of mana

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GARcher is the reason UBW is the best route, every other argument is invalid.

Serve this post also as a claim for my husbando.

>>154610814
Good thing Sakura has precisely that.

>>154610766
>archer was happy with his life
>kerry mutilated his ideal and regretted it ever since.

>>154610689
You havnt read them more like. The only Touko puppets that are perfect are the ones of Touko.

They found Shirou's puppet body in one of Touko's old abandoned workshops and it is very pooly fitting.

Thats why the are looking for her in the epilouge

Sakurafags dont even know their own route

>>154610479

That's just your taking it negatively. There are numerous positive ways to interpret it, too.

I've always seen it as the story of a boy who lived for others learning to live for himself, too. The Shirou that hangs onto his ideals is a romantic idea, but I think the notion of a boy learning something as simple as "it's okay to be selfish" has its merit.

I wonder what would have happened if Shirou summoned Gilgamesh instead of Saber.

I know Gilgamesh was technically already around when the new grail war started, but I'm still curious how they would have interacted with each other when they're not trying to kill each other.

>>154610853
>archer was happy with his life
That's why he wants to kill Shirou, right? What Kiritsugu regretted was sacrificing Irisviel and leaving Ilya behind for the sake of his ideal.

>>154610766
Archer's big revelation was that he did not regret his life.

UBW Shirou has support of Rin and the full knowledge of what led to Archer. He lives a fulfilling life.

Hell, even when he lives 100% comitted to his ideals after the Fate route he has a long and happy life and finds Avalon.

The HF Good end is the worst good end for Shirou.

>>154610889
You havnt read the vN, have you? Archer remembers that he never once regretted his life. Its the major development of his character

>>154610854
It works well enough to keep him as a normally functioning human being as long as he has sex with his girlfriend now and then. That's more than good enough. Try again, Rinfag.

>>154610889
He wants to kill shirou because of things that happened AFTER his life.

And kerry was broken before zero even began, he had found another reason to not kill himself with Iri but that was it, that's why he wanted the grail.

>>154610896
>>154610925
>h-he didn't regret his life, just the eternal suffering that came as a direct result of it!
Nice try. Also, pretty sure the Realta Nua end isn't canon.

>>154610929
>Rinfag

Hilarious.

And it doesnty work well at all. Its a desperate stop gap. Thats why they are desperately trying to find Touko who is canonically the hardest person to find if she does not want to be found

They make do but dont kid yourself. The puppet body is not a good thing

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>>154610956
Read the fucking VN you mongoloid

This revalation got its own fucking unique CG you dense cunt

>>154610967
>calls people Sakurafags
>expects anyone to believe he's not a Rinfag
Hilarious. And considering what a miracle it is that he even survived, it's ridiculous to complain that he doesn't have a perfect body. As long as Shirou and Sakura have eachother, they're perfect.

>>154610896

I'm not the anon you're arguing with, but I don't see why you're so certain that HF Shirou's life is so dreary just because he takes a different path.

I'd say it's a great unknown. It's a brave new world for Shirou, and I have no idea how any can be certain as to how he continues onward from that point. The unknown can be scary, but what lies beyond it isn't necessarily worse than what is known.

Personally, I hope (and firmly believe) that Shirou lives a good, regret-free life regardless of the answer he finds. I see no reason to believe they're mutually exclusive in this.

>>154600932
He proved to gil he was worth, contrary to the "faker" ideology. Plus before going oom he was dominating the fight.

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>HF/Sakurafags once again demonstrating their hideous lack of knowledge around F/SN

>>154611000
You mean the CG right before he goes back to his eternal suffering and loses all his memories of UBW, making it all meaningless?

>>154611021
>ANYONE WHO HATES THE WORST EXCUSE OF A HEROINE IN THE NASUVERSE MUST LOVE HER SISTER!!!!
>Wormfag logic 101

>>154611043
He still does not regret how he lived.

Its an irrefutable point and a key one about his character.

>>154611044
>le worms worst girl xDDD
Yeah. Definitely a Rinfag we're dealing with here.

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>>154599227

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Haven't really read/watched anything fate related, but considering rest of the boards considers fatefags obnoxious I decided to drop by only to notice that you guys hate each other even more than the rest of the board hates you. Good thread.

While we're on it - was it ever specified what the hell kind of body Shirou had when they pulled him out of the wreckage? Rin says something about it being 'not quite right' or something, and they got the puppet body after that, so what did they first end up with?

>>154611021
>As long as Shirou and Sakura have eachother, they're perfect.
>as long as Shirou is inprisoned in a bad puppet body that affects his personality; magecraft and freedom , its perfect

Sakurafags come accross as yandere as the character herself.

>>154611000
Even the anime gets that part.

>>154611043
>Emiya
>forgetting

You do realise he doesn't go to the throne of heroes like everyone else right? And they've basically retconned them forgetting at this point anyway.

>>154611065
Him becoming a CG is a direct result of how he lived. That's an irrefutable fact if anything.

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>>154611085
>HF idiots actually believe this

>>154611111
The very scene where Rin sees Archer off points out that he'll lose all his memories when he returns to be a counter guardian.

>>154611113
And you know what? he was fine with that in life and during UBW he realises that he's actually kinda fine with it overall. He'd just distanced himself from his dream and meeting Shriou revitalised that.

>>154611113
And he doesnt regret it.

What part of this are you failing to understand?

Also >>154611111

Archer is fully aware of what happens when he gets summoned. Thats how he is aware of his counter guardian role in F/SN in the first place

My god you are thick.

>>154611121
It's literally proven by your own posts:

>>154611030
>>154611044
>>154611100

>>154611065
He never regretted his life. He regrets becoming a Counter Guardian.

>>154611161
The only thing "proven" is that HF fags insert their own headcanon into the route and try to dismiss or ignore actual canonical plot points.

But have fun with you image macro. You sure told us

>>154611150
>>154611155
>he was fine with that in life
Only because he didn't understand what it actually entailed. If you think Archer doesn't regret it, you missed the entire point of UBW. He was trying to kill Shirou for a reason.

>>154611196
Because he's entirely convinced that he hates himself. But then he realises that he actually -doesn't-

>>154611185
The only one inserting headcanon is you, with your whining about how Shirou finally leading a decent life as an actual person is suffering just because his temporary puppet isn't completely perfect.

>>154611196
Again, the -BIG REVELATION- is that he doesnt regret a thing.

Why are you fighting against the literal story?

>>154611230
He was trying to escape a fate of eternal suffering and despair. You can't blame him for that.

>>154611261
Except he did regret it. He realized there was nothing he could do after seeing how stubborn Shirou was, though. HF True is the grand finale of F/SN for a reason. Why are you fighting against the literal story?

>>154611261
And this is bullshit. Why would he not regret it? It's literally an existence worse than death.

>>154611266
He knew it wouldn't work from the start! he was doing it out of frustration and then when actually being confronted by himself he realises everything he liked about himself and what he did in life and notices "oh shit, I actually don't hate myself, and I don't actually hate what I'm doing as much as I thought I did"

>>154611241
He wasnt leading a decent life. He was stuck in a shitty puppet body that everyone knows is bad which is why they are seeking out Touko, he has lost all of his magic circuits and he is entirely reliant on Sakura for prana and is essentially her familiar.

What part of that is good?

I don't dislike HF as a route - I don't particularly care either way - but I absolutely will not accept anybody who thinks that Gil's death in HF was anything other than a handwave to get him out of the story. Presumably, Nasu remembered his existence like 3/4ths of the way through writing the plot, and just went with "lol he was off-guard, so it's okay".

>>154611293
>>154611309

>He realized there was nothing he could do after seeing how stubborn Shirou was, though

No, Shirou reminded him of the beauty that their ideals contained.

You really need to play the fucking VN.

>>154611326
He's living a happy regular life with the one he truly loves, instead of sacrificing his afterlife to snipe more terrorists for all time and dimensions.

>>154611341
HF was poorly writted shit from the get go. Zouken and -True- Assassin are horribly contrived.

Lancer's death and Saber's death were as bad as Gil's death in how contrived they were.

It was a route that really didnt want to be in the confines of the established lore and setting of F/SN.

The fact that it was a horrible, bastardised combination of Sakura and Ilya's routes also didnt help.

>>154611396
>puppet body that cant function by itself
>aspects of his personality lost
>"regular life"

Again, Sakurafans come accross as yandere as Sakura sometimes.

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>>154611399
Don't forget

>entire route happens because shirou walked sakura home

>>154611396
But he realised he's actually kinda okay with doing that.

>>154611396
>instead of sacrificing his afterlife to snipe more terrorists for all time and dimensions

Neither did Fate Shirou or UBW Shirou. What is your point?

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>>154611347
>it may be completely pointless and just lead to infinite suffering... but it's beautiful!
Really?

>>154611424
Ah those Velox comics. Never fail to bring a smile to my face.

The amount of early F/SN fanart, 4komas and doujinshi were really fucking good and heartwarming.

>>154611347
There's no beauty in their ideal, though. The thought of sacrificing yourself to save another is really fucked up and Shirou persisting in that even though many people calls him out in his bullshit is retarded.

>>154600548
>being so butthurt

>>154611436
Yes, really. Thats what is fucking stated in the VN you dumb cunt.

Remember, Shirou and Archer's definiton of "happiness" is not like a normal person's.

>Anime Japan 2017
>Fate Project 2017
what do you expect?

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>>154611399
>poorly writted
Also, Gilgamesh, Lancer and Saber had done what they were supposed to in the other routes, so getting them out of the way quickly in HF was a good thing. Contrary to what F/GOfags might think, Fate isn't about the servants, but the masters. Servants are just ghosts from the past used as tools.

>>154611452
They both believe their ideals are beautiful.

It really doesnt matter what you think. Shirou/Archer are not you. Your standards arnt applicable.

Archer's realisation was that he did not regret how he lived his life as he happily pursued the ideals that he believed were beautiful and fulfilling.

>>154604267
That's like saying Heaven's Feel was ruined because just by asking Shirou, Rin was now able to stand toe-to-toe with Dark Sakura who easily swallowed Gilgamesh.

>>154611452
>Its not beautiful because I say so!!!!

Thankfully, Shirou/Archer are their own characters with their own clearly defined sense of beauty and idealism. This is what they find beautiful and how they both want to live.

Thats all there is to it.

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>>154611448
>tfw most of them are lost to time

I found a bunch of them in an old folder I forgot about. I was so happy. fate discussion was unironically at it's best when we were all watching the DEEN anime.

>>154611420
>puppet body that cant function by itself
It feels and looks just like a regular body. All that means is that he needs mana, which isn't so different from needing to eat.
>aspects of his personality
You mean the "MUST SACRIFICE SELF AND LOVED ONES FOR STRANGERS" part? Yeah, good riddance.
The one being yandere is you, since you're obsessed with him leading a violent life.

>>154611509
>Gilgamesh, Lancer and Saber had done what they were supposed to in the other routes, so getting them out of the way quickly in HF was a good thing.

See, this kind of retarded logic is why HF was shit.

Treating well established and important characters as "obstacles to get rid off in order to fit my horribly narrow plot in" means that you have already fucking failed as a writer.

Much of this can be blamed on the time constraints that Nasu was under to release the game and due to HF being a horrible amalgamation of two very different routes.

Trying to defend it is just fucking retarded though. Nasu is on record in being very disappointed in how HF turned out.

>>154611485
>Remember, Shirou and Archer's definiton of "happiness" is not like a normal person's.
Because they're fucked up. HF fixes Shirou and gives him normal happiness, hence why it's the true end.

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>>154611560
It was great in the years that followed to. The discussions and OC that were generated after the full translation will forever be my most enjoyable time on /a/ and probably the reason why F/SN established itself as a pillar of this board.

Things for me went noticably down hill with the F/Z anime adation. I personally loved the adaption but it brought in an influx of mouth breathing fucktards that are still here today.

>>154611564
No, even Rin and Sakura discuss that Shirou's personality has changed since getting the body.

And again, there is no evidence to suggest that Fate or UBW Shirous led "violent lives". Fate Shirou stayed 100% true and helped a huge number of people before going to Avalon to be with his waifu and UBW Shirou supposedly does the same with support from Rin and an awareness of where his ideals could take him if he isnt careful.

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>>154611616
That and GAR.

>>154598668
UBW might be worse than HF, but the fate route is the best.

>>154611578
>HF fixes Shirou

No it doesnt. It just focuses his "I MUST SAVE" boner onto one person rather than every person.

Shirou isnt a normal person. He finds no happiness in normal activities. HF didnt change this.

And also
>"True end"

Every route has a "true end" you silly cunt. There is no "more canon" end to the game. Nasu said this fucking years ago and you mouthbreathers still try to assert this.

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>>154611678
now I'm just posting these for all the newfags.

>>154611685
For me UBW is the most complete and satisfying story overall but I have a massive soft spot for Fate. Even if its first half was a drag, its atmosphere cant be matched.

And I found the 2nd half to be way better than anything in HF. HF was wonky garbage.

>>154611616
>that Zabiyana

Fuck, my sides.

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>>154611715

>>154611770
>Goatsee Angry Manjew

Simpler times. Still makes me laugh.

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>>154611770

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>>154611827

>>154611577
>Treating well established and important characters
Yes, King Arthur with a vagina and Gilgamesh the token last boss with an inconsistent personality sure were great and indispensable characters. Face it, you were reading F/SN for the big flashy explosions and got upset the final route was a bit more cerebral than that.

>>154611656
>And again, there is no evidence to suggest that Fate or UBW Shirous led "violent lives".
Being a hero implies fighting villains.

>>154611577
Once someone gets in the franchise, you learn that each of the servants, while interesting, aren't that big in the whole picture.

>>154611577
jobbing is a very important role.

>>154611939
What you have typed isnt an argument, more of a "hurrr durrr I dont care" reply.

I read this beacuse I enjoyed it. Outside of HF I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Also
>HF
>Cerebral

I think your fedora is cutting off the blood supply to your brain. Being dark and edgy for the sake of it in what was essentially a "RESCUE THE DAMSEL IN DISTRESS PLOT DEVICE!" story isnt "cerebral". Its pretentious and retarded

>>154611728
It's the second half of Fate that makes it shit, though. The first half of Fate was a basic but entertaining story about a weak guy and his nerfed servant having to come up with a way to defeat a yandere loli and her huge monster.

After that, characters just dropped off the face of the earth as a generic evil priest and some generic arrogant NTR guy from nowhere suddenly became the final villains, dropping cryptic references to the 4th war that no reader could appreciate at the time.

>>154611939
Sorry anon, but the dichotomy between Shirou and Archer and examining what makes them tick as characters the was far more "cerebral" than "Save the edgy princess you has done nothing other than whine and feel sorry for herself all game"

>>154611968
No, it just implies helping people.

>>154612000
Sure but writing them out of it in the way that HF did was both hamfisted and embarassing.

Both Fate and UBW do a far better job at removing side characters away from the essential plot over the course of the routes. HF jumped the shark with next "original" characters that were never mentioned or hinted at even existing in other routes.

tl;dr its shit.

>>154612024
>>154612050
>implying Sakura was a damsel in distress when she ended up being the one to kill her tormentors
>le edgy meme
Yup, pretty clear stories more complicated than "JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CORRECT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE RIGHT" are a bit much for you.

>>154612096
>HF jumped the shark with next "original" characters that were never mentioned or hinted at even existing in other routes.
F/Z

>>154612046
The referencing of the 4th war was prefectly fine though. It didnt do it in a way that was not understandable and the mystery of what happened in the 4th war created a sense of tension.

Sometimes I think that fleshing out the 4th war in F/Z was a mistake. It was an entertaining story but somethings are better left as mysteries

>>154612096
The Makiris being one of the three major families was explained as early as Fate. Sounds like you just didn't pay attention to details.

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>>154612127
She was a damsel in distress. Killing Shinji just made her an even worse damsel in distress.

It made her one that was trying as hard as she could to be edgy and distance herself from the only people who gave a fuck about her. Being held by Kotomine and Angry Manjew and birthing all the evils in the world and needing to be forcefully rescued from the situation is not a good character development

>>154612163
No it wasnt anon.

>>154612163
Zouken, True Assassin, the shadow, etc weren't mentioned or implied.

>>154612127
Killing Shinji ironically made her even more into a damsel in distress plot device.

>>154612190
>that Youtube screenshot
Oh, it's this guy again.
>Being held by Kotomine
And as usual, you're bullshitting without even having read the VN.

>>154612223
Zouken was, Sakura mentioned her scary grandfather.

>>154612264
Kotomine was facilitating it and preventing attempts to rescue her.

>>154612264
Does the validity of that screenshot contantly trigger you or something?

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>>154612127
>Dark Sakura
>not edgy

Oh come the fuck on.

>>154612208
>>154612223
The shadow is literally the same as the grail mud at the end of Fate, except manifesting earlier, and Caster's Assassin is mentioned to not be a proper servant, making it clear there is such a thing as a "true Assassin". Also, Shinji himself brings up the Matous being a great magus family. Since he's worthless himself, that implies there's a better magus in the family.

>>154612365
All of this is only connectable in hindsight and anyone playing the game for the first time finds HF's weird introductions of random things jarring.

>>154612283
No, he wasn't. The only thing he got in the way of was destroying the grail at the very end, which was after Sakura's contract to it had been severed.
>>154612301
>480x360
The resolution makes it obvious as fuck he's some retard who saved some Youtube thumbnail or something. The fact he doesn't get what that scene is saying makes it all the more clear.
>>154612320
Nice crossboarder gif there.

>>154612412
Did you complain about Satsuki being a vampire and SHIKI too? It's the exact same thing as the Near and Far Side routes in Tsukihime. The story having more depth to it than it seems to have at first is nothing but a good thing.

>>154612428
>cant refute the point
>attacks the gif

Quality Sakurafag debating skill.

>>154612428
> The only thing he got in the way of was destroying the grail at the very end, which was after Sakura's contract to it had been severed.

And Kotomine, who wanted Angy Manjew to be born. Which lead to his and Shirou's fisticuffs.

Sakurafags again proving their lack of knowledge about their waifu's route

>>154612525
>implying you have a point
You need to go back.

>>154598668
Fate was shit
HF was shit
UBW was less shit

Would you like a diagram?

Whatever happened to the HF films? I forgot it was going to be a trilogy of films. Jesus I'll be dead by the time they all come out.

>>154612555
>says Kotomine was holding her and preventing people from rescuing her
>get called out on being a retard
>b-but he was protecting angra mainyu, at least! clearly you're the ones who don't know the route!
How desperate can you be?

>>154598668
Everybody knows prism Illya is the best route.
All the Gil vs Shirou fights in that are epic as fuck.

>>154612569
You were implying that Dark Sakura wasnt edgy when she is the embodiment of resentful, passive aggressive edgy. Its just Sakura trying to create a new personality to justify her actions and acting accordingly.

I challenged you on this and you replied by attacking the image

You have to be better than this, Sakurafag. People have been laughing at you for 10 years now.

>>154612610
He wasnt holding her but he was facilitating the birth and stopping people from reaching Sakura to achive that.

>>154600932
That's because the anime changed up how the fight played out. Originally it was Gil who got his ass saved by Angra since Shirou was gonna finish him off even after Excalibur blew away UBW.

>>154612632
>You were implying that Dark Sakura wasnt edgy
No, I was calling you out on your buzzword. You replied by posting a Youtube-quality screenshot that had nothing to do with the discussion at hand (pro-tip: Both Kotomine and other characters openly acknowledge the mind-corrupting effects the grail has on Sakura), as well as a gif that's obviously from another board. You got called out on being a retarded crossboarder, that's all there is to it. This is why nobody likes Sakura haters.

>>154612594
That's what they said with the Kizu trilogy

>>154612645
>stopping people from reaching Sakura
That's why Rin and Shirou both reached Sakura without even knowing he was there, right? Face it, you haven't even read HF and are just shitposting based on memes.

>>154600458
Yeah but Gil is a faggot though. Archer and Kerry are true heroes in the sense of their justice.

>>154612752
I'm not sure if HF will release in a short time frame or a long one

>>154612763
Shirou didnt reach her though. He had to go through kotomine.

>>154612936
Holy shit, you're just confirming it more and more for each post you make. Fun fact: Shirou fighting Kotomine comes after the Rule Breaker scene, and he doesn't even run into Kotomine in the normal end.

How did Shirou know exactly what Rule Breaker was the instant he saw it in HF?

>>154613010
His origin is swords, and he has a natural affinity for being able to analyze swords and other objects.

>>154613010
Wasn't it due to Archer's arm already supplying him information?

>>154613010
Passive ability of Shirou as a consequence of his Reality Marble.

>>154612190
How does Kotomine keep doing it?

>>154612990
I have nothing to add to your debate, so I'm just hijacking a tangent from you.

>normal end
Holy fuck, the normal end sucks. I was told some stupid shit about "the normal end makes the true end more meaningful because of what's in it" or something to that effect. It almost ruined the route for me. And then, when I read the true end, I got even more pissed off, because the normal end is completely irrelevant. It's not like there's 50% substance in the normal ending and 50% substance in the true ending; it's 0% in the normal and 100% in the true. Beyond "why bother reading the normal ending?", I say "why bother *having* the normal ending?"

>>154613146
>Beyond "why bother reading the normal ending?", I say "why bother *having* the normal ending?"

One more "Fuck You" from Nasu to his fans.

>>154599039
/thread

>>154613146
Nasu was intending on having the normal ending be the true ending at first, but then he realized it was far too harsh and unfair of a conclusion for someone who's already suffered as much as Sakura.

>>154611424
this is so 00s its hilarious

How would you all fix Fate, UBW and HF?

>>154613299
>Fate
remove caliburn

>UBW
remove shirou vs gil

>HF
remove saber

>>154610379

GO is shitting all over old lore again. Hurrah for more retcons and oneup-manships of scale.

>>154612412

>connectable in hindsight

You mean, that wonderful storytelling device called foreshadowing?

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>>154599878

If she did, she wouldn't be one of the company's most beloved characters. Even says so in her bio, look it up.

Nasu just meme'd hard back in 2004-5, and then after two straight back to back polls with her being in the top ten and rising, with little to no exposure, he stopped memeing so hard.

Face it, the Japs stopped the stigma long ago, she is popular, and only the absolute dregs of the fanbase still continue their vigil of hatred.

Us true Sakurabros will sit her and sip tea while people desperately cling to the "she's totally not popular guys!" memes.

But take heart, at least you will have Crazy Clover Club's doujins, those guys will keep up the Ciel and Sakura memes for ages to come, no matter how loved they get. It'll be your last bastion.

>>154613146

Normal doesn't deal with 5th magic.

True shows us it was actually functional in it's intended goal, before the families tried to dick each other over and use it for different root end goals. Shows you what Ilya and the other dolls were made for and what happens to them by this time in the story.

As much as I hate heroic sacrifice 'I win, but here's a least second revival', it made sense given the information we had. It should have been 'good' and the the death of Shirou be 'true'.

I'm not sure the ending labels like that mean much more than the author liking a specific conclusion over the others, since it's a multiverse all outcomes are true.

>>154613949
Third magic. Third is soul. You scared me and made me have to look up the contexts of the 5th magic before I realized what you meant.

>>154611715
There's something extremely cringy about these comics, but at the same time they represent the era they are from in such a specific way their value as relics is amazing.

>>154614143

My mistake.

>>154613949
>As much as I hate heroic sacrifice 'I win, but here's a least second revival', it made sense given the information we had. It should have been 'good' and the the death of Shirou be 'true'.

Nah, Ilya was planning to sacrifice herself originally for the plan anyway. If you want to bitch about something, ask Nasu why he made her personality fixed on sacrifice and not just tell the gang, "blow up the magic circle and Sakura will be free" a week prior to the final battle.

The end showed the characters worked hard to try to get back their happiness. Sakura effectively bankrupted herself of all the funds owed to her after a lifetime of experimentation just to get a used spare body that has functional issues. Imagine how in the poor house they would be just to get a good one, but she's still gonna do it. Plus we see a positive change with her finding her own mentor and serving the town faithfully, and considering Shirou wasn't very functional until very prior to the epilogue, it wasn't years of bliss either.

It also gave us the most information post route, so the movies don't need to add much, maybe show Shirou helping Issei rebuild the temple and his plans for the future. The anime fixed UBW True for being way too brief on things, HF True had almost too much to fit one epilogue.

>Another general infested by fatefags defending everything about fate

holy fucking shit

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>>154613898
Even CCC was made to eat crow in the end, though.

>>154614341

Either this is bait or you didn't see the next page. That is another cheap shot.

>>154614508
Those aren't Sakura, though. The butt of the joke are Caster and Makidera for assuming that.

>>154614221

>"blow up the magic circle and Sakura will be free" a week prior to the final battle.

This has always been a major gripe to me. Either she's willing to let things play out or she genuinely wants to help Shirou (after she looses Herc/learns Shirou doesn't know anything). Her personality/demeanor changes once she knows that she can't vent her frustrations on Shirou. So why not take this chance to betray and fuck over the family, she's going to die in a few years no matter what.

>hey Shirou, there's thing under ground over here, go smack it and the fighting will be pointless
>then we can go over to russia and fuck up my creators
>by the way Rin, half of what you said is wrong, you're either lying to Shirou, or you were fed lies by who ever taught you.

>>154615157
She doesn't want Shirou to die?

Because if he tries that shit, he's going to die.

>>154615777
>Because if he tries that shit, he's going to die.
Why? And they need not do it alone or unarmed, at any rate. Let's assume they can't do it normally - couldn't they have just made the Jeweled Sword like three days earlier and nuked Manjew? Nobody was hanging out at the Greater Grail until the last day or so.

>>154613386
What's the problem with Saber in HF?

>>154616599
She got blacked by manjew.

>>154610706
>>154610800
It does happen. Shirou never actually realizes and gets over his own broken nature.

>B-But Archer was happy
He was also a machine man, his 'happiness' is nothing but an illusion. He realizes it in Fate route, none of the bullshit about the hero of justice mattered after he reunited with Saber and became also a full human bean. The ending of Fate route and HF route is exactly the fucking same. Shirou in Fate route even is willing to toss away his ideals and everything for Saber. She was the one who didn't let him.

UBW Shirou is just an immature kid who exists to ego stroke a doomed guy and fuck Rin's life.

Mind of steel and sparks liner high are the best endings.

>>154616880
>Mind of steel
Ebin meem.

>>154611509
>Fate isn't about the servants, but the masters.
Fate according to Nasu is first and foremost the story of king Arthur seeking the Holy Grail. That's why only fate route remains relevant in the big picture of the whole Fate/ franchise and the others are simply footnotes. They are still canon, but they are kind of irrelevant.

The iconic heart of Fate franchise according to the Mushroom is the bond between Master and Servant (positive or negative), and their meeting/separation/reunion. That's why the fucking HEART of the Fate route and UBW was Shirou's goodbye with Saber and Archer's goodbye to Rin. You mean HF, which again was a route that was added as a fluke (it was supposed to be in a different VN) is about the Masters. But Fate and UBW is about the Servants. Apocrypha (Masters who?). Extraverse. Strange Fake. Fragments (And Prototype too, the Masters are mostly irrelevant or killed, except two of them). Zero too (though it was the only fate work to date which balances all relationships). Not just Grand Order. You're an ignorant secondary to think that shit and parrot fanwank without actually dipping into the franchise. When Apocrypha was made, Nasu didn't give a shit about telling his buddies to make Masters, he wanted Servants. He wanted a group of Servants divided into factions facing others. The Masters were an afterthought. So you thinking it's just FGO proves again your fucking ignorance. Right now, what FGO did is to establish the name of the summoning system to bring Servants? And it's called "FATE."

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>>154616599
I simply see her as being without purpose in that route.

Every time Shirou sees her, he just thinks/says the same few things about how he understands that she's his enemy, and then he gets away; that's the extent of their interaction until the end. While I understand that her death therein is supposed to be the solidification of his ideal, it's important to recognize that the sacrifice didn't need to be Saber. The core of the event is that he's finally taken a life to save a life - if Rider's later orders/personality had been written differently, it could just as easily have been her. Saber's ideals and personality never really imprint upon Shirou in HF; she played no real role in the route beyond 'hard-to-kill secondary antagonist'. It seems to me now that her continued existence as an Alter was not markedly more than Nasu wanting to keep her relevant as she is the deuteragonist of the Fate route. To that end, I personally felt that Saber distracted from the point of Heaven's Feel. As readers of the VN as a whole, her whisper of "Shirou" at the end appears, at a glance, to be significant - but within the HF route as a self-contained work, it seems more akin to an aside to the audience, as opposed to a narrative point or device or direction.

Does this make sense to you, or am I just being out-there?

>>154616707
Saber Alter is top tier though

>>154617318
>the two shitty shounen routes and the shitty franchise milking spinoffs are about the servants
Congratulations, you just proved the point.

>>154617331
HF route isn't meant to be self contained.

>>154617429
It must be a self-contained work, or it is not a work. To argue otherwise is to argue that all of the routes collectively possess one end, which seems pedantic.

>>154617401
That you're fucking wrong? Literally nobody gives a shit about the Masters. If the magus were so interesting, then Mahoyo and Case Files would be more milked. You know why? Because absolutely nobody gives a shit about the Masters. Rin is more successful as a slutty goddess Servant than as a Master, because her worth wasn't being a Master, but being a tsundere waifubait. Look at Ilya and how she was butchered beyond recognition as long she becomes even more of a lolicon's bait (from crafty adult to retarded generic bland mahou shoujo rapebait) and people loved she become a Servant herself.

Nasu conceived Fate first and foremost as a story of King Arthur's adventures in his quest for the Grail and liked the idea of heroes fighting each other based on some popular manga he followed with nip heroes returning from the grave and duke it out. The Masters were always an afterthought to _him_ Always.

So this shit you spouted here?
>Contrary to what F/GOfags might think, Fate isn't about the servants, but the masters.

Absolutely false. Saber entry encyclopedia:
>Fate/Stay Night was originally her story.
>The main theme during early development was "a story about the Holy Grail and King Arthur", and it had remained unchanged until now.

It's not a story about some dude with sword austism, some loli who is a cup, a girl infested with worms and a twintail tsundere. This is why they are absolutely irrelevant in most cases. Waver Velvet is the only one who I can confirm has some kind of actual weight in the grand scheme in Fate franchise world building of the Masters. He and Zouken, actually.

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>>154617812
>Saberfags being THIS mad

>>154617331
>I simply see her as being without purpose in that route.
You're idiotic who didn't get how Saber is literally the most important person to Shirou's development aside of Kiritsugu, huh? And, no, it's not about being a love interest here at all. Killing her meant for Shirou to kill his ideals and abandon his old self to be reborn. When he destroys his memories of her, he also shatters the memories he had of Kiritsugu (you see the moonlight scene breaking into pieces). He lost his old self forever to become a new guy. Which was what was foreshadowed would happen.

Saber is the embodiment of the ideals he wants to achieve. Excalibur is subtly, the sword which shines with all those timeless ideals, including his. That's why in Fate route he witnessed it (and witnessing was a turn of events which had EMIYA visit him), in UBW route he could only watch it at the end, from the sidelines and never at full glory, and in HF, the light is tainted, as his ideals are questioned. Losing Saber to Medea and to the Shadow is what makes Shirou falter. Not Rin, Archer or Sakura. HF Shirou questioned if his ideals were worth it the night he lost Saber. Sakura was the last straw, but he was already blaming himself and his ideals because Saber died due to that. When Archer challenges him about his ideals, which presence he had at his side supportive and witnessing? Was it Rin, the route heroine and love interest? No, Archer and Shirou wanted Saber to watch this.

Without killing that twisted Saber, HF Shirou wouldn't have achieved that ending.

>>154617860
I'm not even a Saberfag, I'm a Nasufag, cancerous pedofag.

>>154618052
Real Nasufags like character-driven stories like Tsukihime, though.

>>154618095
Real Nasufags understand why Nasu does things and support him. He always wanted Fate to be about the Servants. That's why in his draft of prototype, most masters were killed off and focused on the Servants. He wanted Fate to be a story about heroes shining and facing challenges to protect humankind in the end. Which is exactly what he finally can explore with FGO.

I'm also happy for him he could finally get back at Takeuchi for forcing the genderswap shit (when he always said he still saw King Arthur as a guy) and made Arthur (Proto) more lore relevant than Artoria in his latest story quest of FGO. It's like he is finally doing what he should have done in the beginning even if he had to change the setting. I can picture him finally scratching that itch he couldn't scratch in over a decade.

I love FSN and Shirou's story and HF is my favorite route, but Fate franchise was never about the Masters. It was always about the Servants, so I was correcting whoever claimed in his ignorance that statement. The Masters could take the scene sometimes, but they aren't the focus. And the most important relationship is between Master and Servant. That's what is the Fate franchise about. If you want to see magi doing shit, better read Mahoyo or Case Files.

>>154618018
>Killing her meant for Shirou to kill his ideals and abandon his old self to be reborn. When he destroys his memories of her, he also shatters the memories he had of Kiritsugu (you see the moonlight scene breaking into pieces).
Again, it didn't need to be Saber. Abandoning his ideal has nothing to do with Saber, because she is not causative to the perpetuation of his ideals. If Saber simply disappeared after her fight with Assassin and Shirou had fought even a Mitsudzuri Alter in the cave, the exact same result would have been achieved. Killing someone to save someone else.

>Saber is the embodiment of the ideals he wants to achieve.
Shirou doesn't know that. He *cannot* know that in Heaven's Feel.

>>154618490
>Again, it didn't need to be Saber.
Yes, it needed to be Saber because she was the one Shirou says "As long she's by my side, I'll never stray." She was always associated hard with his ideals while Sakura was associated hard with his domestic life. He was reborn the first time because of her. It was Kiritsugu who inserted the sheath, but Avalon is a half of Excalibur which is bounded with her and it was Avalon who changed him forever.

No, killing someone else wouldn't have the same impact.

>Shirou doesn't know that. He *cannot* know that in Heaven's Feel.
Shirou knows this, though. He even says that he killed something brilliant he cannot get back. Ayako or a random civilian wouldn't get this reaction at all. He thinks about killing and sacrificing Masters all the time. Hell, he wanted Shinji dead in Fate route. The act of killing itself isn't a big deal, the act of killing Saber was. Because it mindbroke him to the point he deleted everything associated with her to go on (and in it, he destroyed his memories of Kiritsugu in the moonlight. What made Shirou move forward before his decision in the Rain).

I just finished reading F/SN
If Zouken and co were on friendly terms and had the same wish how the hell did they manage to fuck everything up during the first wars?
They even had all the information and one of them had the power to travel to aternate dimensions

>>154619958
They all wanted dibs.

Fate/Zero is still the deepest and darkest fate

>>154621213
Strange Fake is already much darker. Depth is arguable.

>>154610583
>actual functioning human being
You mean all "Much Sakura" & likely going to snap if he ever loses her. If Sakura dies, he's going to break.

>>154598668
White aryan man vs ginger-nigger. A sad story truly.

>>154621513
What edgy things happen in Strange Fake?

>>154598668
Because the climax fight of the route is Shirou VS Archer.

Shit is like 3 hours long while this shitty fight of your picture is 20 minutes. No Jokes, from they enter the temple to the part he cuts his arm is 20 fucking minutes holy shit.

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>>154623409
I won't even bother to get into the LN, because there's no need. And I'm spoilering this, because I know I wouldn't want to know this if I hadn't taken a look at SF yet.

One of the Masters is a little girl who was groomed by her parents to be a mage capable of carrying on their bloodline. They pretended to love her for her entire life so that she would let them torture her - their family magic is a modified version of Zouken's bugs; some sort of bacteria. Something went wrong with the bacteria and she is put into a permanent coma. She inadvertently becomes a Master and summons a Servant because of the fucked-up Grail. Again because of the fucked-up Grail, she summons the concept of Disease into the Rider class. Its purpose as a Servant is to serve its Master's will, so it creates a Reality Marble-esque imaginary world for her, in which to play. All she wants is an ordinary life with loving parents, so Disease infects them with a zombifying condition which is designed to affect their brains such that they stay in their home and love her in truth; then, the parents and their home are mirror-copied into the imaginary world so that she can live with loving parents forever.

Hey "unpopular special opinion here" look how cool i am guys.

The best F/SN route is staying away from Type-Moon garbage.

>>154622832
Good thing he won't, since he's Sakura's superhero.