I'm kind of disgustingly late, but I've been thinking

I think it suffered from having a poor mc, which is a pretty big deal, but if you can get past that (which I did), it's pretty enjoyable.
There's a couple of plot holes but I don't think it's anything you can't fix yourself by thinking through it.

>It's just the edgiest magical girl show,
You need to watch more magical girl shows.

>>152675760
Immediately after that, I said that it's at least the most obviously apparent edgy magical girl show.

I think plenty of magical girl shows are edgier, but Madoka went full edge immediately.

>>152675754
I enjoyed watching it, but it's pure schlock. It's best not to think about it, and just enjoy the cool shit on screen.

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>>152675538
>But it's hailed as this amazing work with deep meaning and amazing plot, when it's mediocre at best.

Welcome to seasonal anime. Every season, there is a heavily marketed or memed series which becomes heavily overrated by casuals. The king of these plebs series become so famous that their existence is cemented as a great work, despite its mediocrity.

>>152675836
>but Madoka went full edge immediately.
Or at least in the third episode.

It has a cool aesthetic, but the characters are complete garbage.

It is. People just either like it for that or they don't.
Urobuchi is Urobuchi here, as anywhere, and as always, everyone dies and nothing goes right; this renders the show "nihilistic" (and with a wicked sense of humor) and a deconstruction of majo shoujo by default. It's compared to Evangelion in that sense, and both have their merits, despite being similarly overrated and sterile narratively.

Tl;dr, you hit the nail on the head.
I thought it was great, but only when I was 15 and still a fledgling writer.

>>152675538
Nope, I know people who go on here that think it's one of the greatest anime of all time. And they've seem quite a lot of anime.

I personally think it's a good show but that's it, nothing more. I'm not really a fan of the character drama apart from perhaps Kyouko and Sayaka's scenes and even then it came across as pretty heavy-handed.

What are your favourite magical girl shows, OP?

>>152675906
>as always, everyone dies and nothing goes right; this renders the show "nihilistic" (and with a wicked sense of humor)
Not everyone dies. Some things go right. The show isn't nihilistic. If you weren't so busy memeing you might actually be able to describe the anime.

>>152675991
I really liked Nanoha when I watched it, but that was a while ago now. Apart from that probably Utena, but I don't know if that counts or not.

the ghing with madoka is that it took a turn from a simple mahoushoujo anime to what we have now, and thats a big deal back then.
it might have some flaws here and there but the result was something that we cant use the little cheatsheet in our heads to predict what will happen, that was the biggest drive I had while watching.
one can always look back and criticize but not that many shows can reproduce the magic of that season.

>>152675538
Don't care for it anymore. Like you said, it's mediocre at best.

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Madoka is fine. In fact, it's great. I think the trend of people coming back later with "meh it was trash I think I guess" stems from Madoka being their first introduction to something deeper than petri-dish depth moeshit - in fact, it actively lured you in with the promise of shojou moeshit, then burns your heart out with death, suffering and lots of snow. It's straddling a line, there - it's playing with magical girl moeshit tropes even as it savages them, so it's always going to be a magical girl anime, if that makes sense. Shows that never bothered to pretend and dove right into the deep end aren't so inhibited. So naturally, when you look back on Madoka, you judge it more harshly. I think it says something that it's judged against "serious" shows rather than trite moeshit, though.

And to be fair - this "grimderp edgedark" stuff was *always* present in magical girl anime, if you look back far enough. There were shows that were cutesy and lighthearted, but had some crushingly tragic themes at their core - Full Moon wo Sagashite comes to mind, for sure. People argue back and forth over it being a "deconstruction" but in some ways it's a throwback, too. The effort it invested in introducing itself as a "typical" magical girl anime only to blindside you in episode 3 is something that worked great then, but now everyone who hasn't seen it is spoiled; they know Madoka is "dark and gritty" just through cultural osmosis. It was made to shake up the genre and it did so; ironically this means it doesn't have the same impact anymore.

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>>152676252
>one can always look back and criticize but not that many shows can reproduce the magic of that season.

Yeah, man, you put your finger right on it. It was all new territory, then. Well, nothing's truly "new" in fiction, but you can always mix and match elements in a new way, and each writer's (and with anime, each artist and composer's) presentation is always unique. The final, combined product is certainly unique. And the artists/writer/composers for Madoka were no slouches, I think we can agree on that much.

It reminds me of Evangelion in how it was received and how people look back on it. When you stop to think about it, it was really trash, wasn't it? And the funny thing is, the people who made it would agree with you. I'm a writer by trade, and I typically feel that way about my own shit, even stuff that was really popular. ESPECIALLY the popular stuff. But in the end, it made such a big damn splash for a *reason.* My "deeper more artistic" shit that I'm actually proud of has a more devoted following, but far smaller. Maybe there's a balance between depth and broad appeal - you could even call it accessibility - that manages to convey classic and powerful themes to a wide segment of the audience, covering a wide swath of varying interests and preferences. I dunno.

I doubt we'll be seeing anything with its impact again for a while, though.

Sailor moon is better in every way.

>>152676578
What the fuck are you talking about?

Madoka didn't blindside anyone. That it was going to be a dark and edgy show was incredibly obvious from episode 1. Episode 3 only shocks people who are incapable of thought.

Suffering means nothing if I don't care about the characters, and Madoka has nothing but bland characters I am physically incapable of giving a shit about.

You seem to understand that Madoka didn't actually do anything new, as you talk about previous magical girl shows and how they dealt with dark themes as well.

Madoka brought nothing to the magical girl genre. It was popular though, and as people assumed all magical girl shows were just innocent shows incapable of the slightest bit of darkness, it got hailed as revolutionary. It changed the shape of anime due to it's popularity, but textually it's as bland as shows come.

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>Mostly great plot
>Great pacing for a 12 episode show
>Memorable scenes
>Really pulls off the "visual direction" meme without feeling pretentious
>Great OST
>Set /a/ on fire like it hadn't been since TTGL
>Won a billion awards
>Still talked about 6 years after it aired

no I'm sure everyone's wrong and you're not a contrarian anon

>>152676880
>Madoka didn't blindside anyone. That it was going to be a dark and edgy show was incredibly obvious from episode 1.
You obviously were not here. You can claim whatever you want after the fact, but it blindsided pretty much everybody.

>>152675538
The show is alright.

The 3rd movie is a piece of garbage that pseuds defend.

>>152676895
This. I didn't want to sound like a fan boy, but it's easily one of the best series of the decade.

The show is great, and the 3rd movie is even better.

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>>152675836

Madoka wasn't edgy though, it's just a different style of magical girl show. The violence was justified to the point that it was used to develop the characters through the trauma it caused them. Edgy would be excessive violence and gore with no reasoning behind it which wasn't what Madoka was. Mahou Shoujou Ikusei Keikaku is edgy.

>>152675538
How could anyone think Madoka is deep? I like it as an action suspense thriller, but everything about it is really simple and clearly spelled out for the audience.

>>152676935
>Blindsided
Madoka is warned once and stopped once from contracting in the first episode, along with music creating tension at those moments, they would have to be blind and death

>>152676895
Aside from the first point, I mostly agree with you.

It's a visual masterpiece, and it definitely sticks with you.

But there's no substance. Nothing to sink my teeth into. The characters are as bland as possible, and the plot doesn't withstand even the simplest of analysis. It's not a masterpiece of fiction.

Anyone with a brain knows this show is overrated.
It's a fine show but nowhere near the second coming of the Christ as some people hail it to be

>>152677177
Show me your analysis and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

>>152675538
The only memorable thing about that anime was the soundtrack. Characters were shit, plot was shit, and one of the shittiest endings, alongside NGE.

>>152675538
Definitely true.

But it has cute girls with guns so who cares.

>>152677270

How was the ending shit? The series has a satisfying end. Rebellion on the other hand...

>>152677146
>person living in the post Madoka world making fun of people not being able to predict episode 3
>people living in the post-medieval world making fun of people not having a modern understanding of physics
It only demonstrates your own mental limitations.

>>152677329
So you refute my claim that the atmosphere of the show was not subtle with, muhdoka innovated the genre, foreshadowing and obvious stuff was never done before

>>152677243
Okay.

Madoka is a show about self-sacrifice. But what does it actually fucking say about self-sacrifice? Is it bad, as is implied by Sayaka and Kyouko's plotlines, or is it good, as is implied by Madoka's sacrifice at the end of the show?

Why is Kyubey evil? He claims to not be, and says that his actions will help humans in the end - but a few episodes later humanity is destroyed by a witch Madoka and Kyubey gives no fucks. If Kyubey is supposed to be an antagonist, actually fucking make him one.

The show is supposed to be about Madoka maturing and becoming more cynical as she gains knowledge, right? Leaving aside the fact that she never fucking changes the entire show, how is a show about growth in cynicism ending with "And then Madoka used her magic powers to fix everything wrong with the world" supposed to be a satisfying ending?

That's off the top of my head. And it's not really a plot analysis, so much as the points in the plot that really bother me.

>>152677495
I am saying that it was Madoka that trained people to pay more attention to such hints and to expect such twists, just like it was the middle ages that invented our modern idea of science.

>>152675869
but each anime is seasonal at some point

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>>152677589
Especially since back then Madoka was advertised as in this picture while nowadays Madoka is advertised as deep and mature.
It jumped genres AND apparent target audience.

>>152677329
Madoka was dark from the very intro of episode 1. There was a lot of foreshadowing for the death of Mami, she even got a 2 death-flags in episode 3.
And I'm saying this as someone who watched it as it was airing and barely visited /a/ back then. I think I just went in a thread to see if /a/non deciphered the runes.

>>152677589
>Madoka invented foreshadowing.
Sure.

What about Fate/Zero?

>>152677691
>>Madoka invented foreshadowing.
>Sure.
That was meant in the context of >>152677659.

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>>152676880
>That it was going to be a dark and edgy show was incredibly obvious from episode 1.

I don't believe you.

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>>152677695
Based Ufotable

>>152677701
But as I said there >>152677691 it never "jumped genre". It was a show with Urobuchi as a writer and obviously dark since the very beginning. Rewatch the first episode if you don't believe me, it starts in a deserted world with two girls desperately fighting a large monster among crumbling buildings.

>>152677787
But it was.

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>plebs didn't watch weekly from episode one
>plebs didn't suffer with the tsunami

You will never know this ride

>>152677857
>It was a show with Urobuchi as a writer and obviously dark since the very beginning. Rewatch the first episode if you don't believe me, it starts in a deserted world with two girls desperately fighting a large monster among crumbling buildings.
You need to watch more magical girls anime if you think that makes it different from other magical girls shows.
This is par for the course.

>>152677787
The witch design was highly morbid. Homura attempts to kill Kyubey, and gives cryptic warnings to Madoka.

So, witches are serious shit, Kyubey can't be trusted, and something is very wrong with the magical girl premise. Obvious from episode 1.

>>152677500
>Madoka is a show about self-sacrifice. But what does it actually fucking say about self-sacrifice? Is it bad, as is implied by Sayaka and Kyouko's plotlines, or is it good, as is implied by Madoka's sacrifice at the end of the show?

There's a differrence here. Sayaka and Kyouko both made their wishes expecting to receive happiness in return for their sacrifice. Sayaka made her wish secretly expecting gratitude from Kyousuke, which came back to bite her when things didn't turn out as she wanted. Madoka, on the other hand, made a legitimately altruistic wish without any expectations for gratitude.

>Why is Kyubey evil? He claims to not be, and says that his actions will help humans in the end - but a few episodes later humanity is destroyed by a witch Madoka and Kyubey gives no fucks. If Kyubey is supposed to be an antagonist, actually fucking make him one.

He isn't "evil", but he is an antagonist. He's the epitome of utilitarianism taken to the extreme. He considers the earth getting destroyed a necessary sacrifice for the greater good. Is it literally incomprehensible to you for an antagonist to not be a 100% evil villain from a saturday morning cartoon?

>The show is supposed to be about Madoka maturing and becoming more cynical as she gains knowledge, right? Leaving aside the fact that she never fucking changes the entire show, how is a show about growth in cynicism ending with "And then Madoka used her magic powers to fix everything wrong with the world" supposed to be a satisfying ending?

It's not really about that at all. If anything, it's about Homura maturing and becoming more cynical as she gains knowledge. And the ending is more like "Through great struggle and selflessness you can make the world a little better, although not necessarily for yourself".

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>>152677798

>>152677500
>Madoka is a show about self-sacrifice. But what does it actually fucking say about self-sacrifice? Is it bad, as is implied by Sayaka and Kyouko's plotlines, or is it good, as is implied by Madoka's sacrifice at the end of the show?

That's supposed to be up to the viewer to decide. And it's a hard decision, because the show makes sure to twist the knife vis a vis the *cost* of that sacrifice. Sayaka's tragic arc served as an example of the Typical Magical Girl in the setting; how they all started out pure of heat and with only the best of intentions, and how when their youthful inexperience rendered their wishes useless and the joy they expected from them absent, how they soldiered on defending their ideals, until even those were stripped from them, and they died alone, miserable and bitter. The fact that Sayaka actually *won,* and was able to bring around her polar opposite; the cynical, bitter, self-serving Kyouko - but only after she'd fallen, so she never knew that her ideals were vindicated - was the real brilliant bastard move by the writer.

It leaves you wanting to see Sayaka - and all the countless others - saved. But then it slaps you in the face with the cost of Madoka's sacrifice - her mother and her brother only remember her as if in a dream. Imagine *that*, if your own mother didn't even remember that you ever existed. That's fucking *brutal.*

Yes, you can "save everyone," but there is *always* a price - and this show was very, very good at making that price hit the viewer's emotions, so they would internalize it.

>>152677500
There's nothing wrong with a story where self-sacrifice is neither inherently good nor bad, and there's nothing wrong with a character filling an antagonistic role in a story without being deliberately malicious.

>>152677916
>witch design was highly morbid.
A mixture between strange and threatening. But the enemies being scary is not really indicative of what was going to happen.
>Homura attempts to kill Kyubey, and gives cryptic warnings to Madoka.
At that point everybody thought she was a dark magical girl. Her role was to oppose the team of heroes. Of course she would try to kill Kyubey. Showing sympathy for Madoka just meant that she would become a friend after being defeated.

>>152677890
What are you trying to say, then? You were saying that people went into Madoka thinking it will be cute and and light-hearted, but now you admit that it was dark.
And this has nothing to do with wether other magical girls shows are dark or not, you were arguing that it wasn't clear Madoka was going to be dark.

For god's sake it was a late-night anime, not a saturday morning cartoon, it was obvious that if they went for a dark done it was going to be darker that your average magical girl for children.

Maybe you were "tricked" into thinking it was going to be cute but don't just assume everyone was.

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>>152677695
I'm currently reading the original novel, it's fucking great.

Urobuchi has an amazing ability when it comes to creating interesting and sometimes very unique characters.

I wouldn't call Madoka one his best works, but Rebellion was pretty great.

>>152677918
> Sayaka made her wish secretly expecting gratitude from Kyousuke
... No, she didn't. Sayaka knew full well that she wasn't going to get to be able to be close with Kyousuke, because she knew she was going to be a magical girl and live a short life. She just wanted to do something nice for the person she loved, while also trying to uphold the ideals that Mami presented to her.

She fell into despair because she couldn't cope shouldering such a great burden with no reward. She's got the most interesting plot line, but she was trying to be genuinely good.

She couldn't have wished for anything, because becoming a magical girl would mean she's not able to be with Kyousuke. Wishing them to be romantically linked oir some other self-pleasure would lead to the exact same thing. So the only thing I can take away is that she should not have made a wish and try to do good. Which directly contradicts Madoka's decision, unless the moral is to commit suicide immediately after doing something good.

Running out of space, will continue in another post.

>>152677890
>>152677787
>>152677659
>>152677691
>>152677329

>all these newfags and people with Alzheimer's

SHAFT clearly attempted to troll the audience back in late 2010 by showing very little about the show other than Ume's designs. Urobuchi being the scriptwriter raised obvious suspicions. He poorly bullshitted his way through that by commenting on his Twitter, eventually leading to the famous "it's time to recongnize me as a healing type writer" meme.

Regardless, with that staff on board people knew some shit was up with Madoka but the HEALING clearly exceeded expectations.

>2011 + 6
>people still can't admit to themselves that madoka is badly written
https://almaelmacom.wordpress.com/2016/03/12/overrated-and-overhyped-garbage-madoka-magica/

>>152678022
The show practically invalidates self sacrifice, if despair and hope balance out then there is no point investing in helping someone outside your friends and family, that mechanic was just a means for the show to be edgy and a rather poor means

>>152678272
I'm just going to repeat what I posted above.
>Maybe you were "tricked" into thinking it was going to be cute but don't just assume everyone was.

>>152678252
>very unique characters.

?

>>152678242
>now you admit that it was dark.
What?
Do you even read my posts or do you just pretend to read them so the content doesn't conflict with your point?

>And this has nothing to do with wether other magical girls shows are dark or not,
I am talking about Pretty Cure. That's not dark. That's children's entertainment.

>it was going to be darker that your average magical girl for children.
Not all late night anime are dark.
>don't just assume everyone was.
Sorry, I saw the reactions on /a/. Apparently you didn't.

>>152676941
Rebellion is a first rate pseud detector.

>there are people out there that seriously believe Madoka is on the same level as classics like NGE, Utena and CCS

>>152677918
>He isn't "evil", but he is an antagonist. He's the epitome of utilitarianism taken to the extreme.
Utilitarians don't typically support genocide.

Humans are an energy farm. Why would you let your energy farm die out? The only thing I can conclude is that he never intended for humans to have any kind of long term survival, and was going to cull them pretty soon anyway at some point. Which means he's directly opposed to humanity.

Which is fine? But it's never actually explained. I had to piece that together myself. And then, in the end, the person who's planning to kill all humans is still just hanging around.

>"Through great struggle and selflessness you can make the world a little better, although not necessarily for yourself".
Making a wish is not a great struggle. Accomplishing every goal you set out for in one fell-swoop isn't realistic, inspiring, or even very selfless.

>>152675538
I think anyone who calls Madoka trash is just being an elitist weeb who's trying to show off how much better they think their taste is than everyone else's.

>>152678495
No one is callling it trash in this thread though?

>>152678252
>Urobuchi
>Interesting characters

Pick one

>>152678566
Have you read the OP?

>>152678272
>He poorly bullshitted his way through that by commenting on his Twitter, eventually leading to the famous "it's time to recognize me as a healing type writer" meme.

This might blow your fucking mind, but not everyone who watches anime - here or in Japan, which is the main market - pays attention to who each show's writer is. I can't tell you the names of the writers of my favorite domestic TV shows off the top of my head, and I'd have to read their wikipedia pages to see what other stuff they wrote.

>>152678285
>The show practically invalidates self sacrifice

Then why does Kyouko eventually come around, convinced by Sayaka's idealistic devotion?

>>152678597
At the time Urobuchi wasn't really that big in the anime scene yet. He was active before, but his real fame here stems from Madoka.

>>152678477
>Humans are an energy farm. Why would you let your energy farm die out?

He explicitly said that once Madoka inevitably witched out, she'd provide enough energy just on her own to end the entropy problem handily. As Kyuubey put it, "we don't need this planet anymore." All of humanity was just a resource to be exploited, to him.

>>152678597
>>152678648

Talking from /a/'s perspective it was pretty hard to miss. Requiem for the Phantom had aired a few seasons prior to madoka and that same year the Fate/zero novels were being translated

>>152678477
Did you miss kybee's explaination? Madoka witch transformation released enough energy to supress entropy for a long time, there was no need to stop it for the universe greater good?

>>152678657
Read the thing next to that.
> The only thing I can conclude is that he never intended for humans to have any kind of long term survival

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>>152678281
>Even if we put Urobutchi’s incompetence to the side, one still cannot excuse that none of the characters have any concrete character, they change however and whenever the creator feels like it. (I’m primarily referring to Kyouko suddenly deciding to consider Sayaka a friend, then barely after, abandoning her initially shown and established ideals just so she could die with Sayaka.)

So he has no fucking clue what "character development' means. Christ that's an autistic rant, there.

>>152678324
You said this:
>You need to watch more magical girls anime if you think that makes it different from other magical girls shows.
So I assumed you were admitting that both children shows and late-night shows can be dark. Or do you consider that the introductory scene of Madoka isn't dark? If that's the case you're just bullshitting.

>Not all late night anime are dark.
But that's not what I said. I said "if they went for a dark tone it was going to be darker that your average magical girl for children." Read the whole sentence, please.

>That's not dark. That's children's entertainment.
You seem to decide what's dark or not purely on what suits you.
Futari Ha had a lot of dark moments, and subsequent seasons also had some even if fewer.

>Sorry, I saw the reactions on /a/. Apparently you didn't.
You're right, I didn't, I already said earlier that I wasn't browsing the threads back then. And?
Because people on /a/ were surprised by the third episode that means I was too?

I don't need to have been there to know that it must have been full of crossboarders and people ironically posting about how they were "tricked". Generally speaking threads for popular anime aren't representative of core /a/ users.

>>152678597
What part of you didn't get
>there is no point investing in helping someone outside your friends and family
The dumb and edgy mechanic doesn't make people think that it is worthwhile to go around saving people.

>>152678754

Oh, it's possible he did - Madoka getting superpowers because loltimeloopentropyspoops was not something he'd foreseen, I think. He'd want to keep "farming" humanity indefinitely, if he could. But he wouldn't turn down the chance to destroy Earth and cash out, certainly - it solved his goal, after all.

>>152678751
Yes. But it's at the sacrifice of the entirety of humanity. Which implies that to him humans had no moral weight. Either he's not actually utilitarian, and just wants to selfishly promote his own races survival over humans, or humans were going to die anyway. Otherwise you could keep humans around as an energy farm, get around the same energy you'd get from Madoka, and then let humans join the aliens in the future. Like he said would happen.

>>152678801
>The dumb and edgy mechanic

*What* mechanic?

>>152678816
Then he's not utilitarian, because he's disregarding human life. Just don't offer Madoka a wish if it's going to destroy humanity, and let humanity stay alive as a resource.

>>152678877
>>Then he's not utilitarian, because he's disregarding human life.

He's not fuckin HUMAN, bro. He's sacrificing one planet/species to save all life in the galaxy.

>>152678768
Well at lest two thirds of the rant are spot on which is enough to prove the point.

>>152678930
He'd accomplish the same fucking thing by not destroying all of humanity. So he does not care about human life, not because it's a moral decision, but because fuck humans I guess. So as far as we're concerned, he's evil.

>>152678770
>Or do you consider that the introductory scene of Madoka isn't dark?
What a pointless diversion.
We are discussing the expected direction of the show.
This was generally assumed to be an eye-catch to lure people into the show. No one took it to mean that one of the main cast was going to die in episode 3 and that most of the remainder of the show was going to be suffering.

>Futari Ha had a lot of dark moments,
Again with the diversion.
I would almost say you are trying to move goalposts. The topic was foreshadowing of what was to come, not whether or not the anime had dark bits.
When I responded to and with "dark", then it was only in the context of the darker aspects of the story of Madoka. Why are you ignoring the actual topic now?

Who's your favourite Madoka character and why?

>>152679028
Sayaka, because she's the only one who actually has a character.

>>152678869
Despair and hope balancing out, >>152678285
if you had read my comment properly you would have noticed it

>>152678816
>>152678833
Kyubey in the series is portrayed as willing to let humanity harm itself to any extent, but unwilling to harm humanity directly/against their will. Since he's a hive mind species, from his perspective his actions are probably just fair and respectful dealings with another individual.

>>152678942

Not really. It's just a bunch of autistic spergrage, to be honest.

>THE STORY ISN'T UNIQUE AND NEW

NO plotline is "unique." There's only about seven basic plots and storytellers have been using them in one permutation or another since before the written word was invented. Anyone who fails to grasp this isn't qualified to bitch about writing.

>H-HE USED CHARACTER ARCHETYPES BAAAWWWWW

This is like bitching about a car having wheels. If they were just cardboard cutouts meant to serve their archetypal roles, we wouldn't have shit like Mami flipping her shit and trying to whack everyone.

And then there's his fucking autismo "plot holes" list, all of which was explained by anyone who actually watched the show. It's not the show's fault that he's too fucking stupid to, you know, watch the show.

>How did Kyuubey survive that attack baaaw

He's effectively immortal and his bodies are disposable, dipshit, that's coverd.

>How did mami lose to a plebwitch

She was busy showing off for her new sempais and was high on the whole YAY I HAVE FRIENDS NOW. As is shown later the girl's apparent mental stability was the result of carefully balanced high pressure. She called kyuubey a *friend,* if that fuckin illustrates anything for you.

>Episode four, Madoka is captured by a witch after she foolishly went out, strangely no Homura rescue in sight. It is Sayaka who comes and helps her, question is, how did Sayaka know where she was?

They literally showed Mami hunting down a witch the prior fucking episode, you fucking numbnuts

>Why did Kyouko want to become friends with the girls she just tried to kill the episode earlier? It is never explained.

Completely ignoring several scenes, most potently the conversation in the church where they come to understand one another better. Jesus. I could keep going, but what the fuck.

>>152678977
So as far as we're concerned, he's evil.

Yes!

>>152679075
>if you had read my comment properly you would have noticed it

I honestly don't get what you mean by "despair and hope balancing out." I don't remember that being part of the metaphysics at all.

>>152679099
Then he's not a utilitarian, he's a deontologist who believes in acting according to various moral rules. So he's willing to perform fair trade, even if the actual consequences are negative overall.

Which completely destroys the rest of his character, and stated goals.

>>152675538
>edgy

Oh boy here we go again.

Edgy means "cutting edge" when used to refer to a product. When referring to people, its usually used to refer to, say, that guy in a fedora and trench coat posing with a katana and talking about how badass he is.

They mean very different things. When someone says that intel came out with an edgy processor, it doesnt mean the same as "that guy with a katana is edgy".

For some reason people on /a/ seem to think that an edgy anime/manga is anything that has "named characters dying/suffering". By that definition, evangelion is edgy. The only series that wouldn't be edgy are generic slice of life ones or ones where the good guys win with no negative consequences of any kind (see : one piece).

Madoka isnt particularly special beyond a catchy OP, a modern take at the "magical girls being misled by cute mascot" trope and urobuchi trolling with CHOMP. Urobuchi trolling was probably the #1 contributor to the series popularity actually.

There are many things that Madoka could have done to provide a more indepth deconstruction of mahou shoujo tropes. For example, Mami has to juggle fighting witches and her school work, and consequently has no friends. Kyouko has to basically steal food to live. Mami getting the money to pay the bills isn't addressed though, and Kyouko dealing with all of life's basics problems is mostly skipped over apart from the apple stealing scene. But in the end, it was a one season show so presumably they had to cut out a lot of parts to focus on Homura trying to change the past.

Madoka on /a/ has a special status not because of how amazing or good it is but because a certain autist spends more than 18 hours every day spamming madoka threads to complain about shipping.

>>152679099
Kyubey is clearly malevolent at times though and even leads one of the girls (I think it was Kyouko?) to their deaths through misinformation/misleading them. It's not even a matter of perspective.

>>152679214
>Kyubey is clearly malevolent at times though and even leads one of the girls (I think it was Kyouko?) to their deaths through misinformation/misleading them. It's not even a matter of perspective.

This, too. As that other poster said, he's only "utilitarian" from his own perspective, i.e. humanity is little better than cattle to be manipulated. He even says that having emotions are considered a mental disorder in his society - he's an alien sociopath. Bad fuckin news.

>>152679166
>Yes!
I should clarify.

Kyubey isn't merely evil. He's evil for no real reason. He isn't justified by ethics, which is what I was explaining. So he's just evil because ???.

>>152679214
IIRC Kyouko askes Kyubey whether it was possible to turn Sayaka back, and Kyubey says "maybe" or some other vauge answer. Kyouko seizes on that blind shred of hope and proceeds to do something stupid.

>>152679277
>Kyubey isn't merely evil. He's evil for no real reason.

Dude, he wants to stop entropy. He has a *goal.* He just doesn't care at all how many humans he kills or tortures to get it - even if he kills *all* of them. He's like a middle manager with a quota to meet, absent any human emotions or ethics whatsoever.

Is this really that fucking hard to get!?

>>152679287
But if i remember correctly (it has been a while) Kyubey later implies that he knew it was never possible. And the way he said it was fucking devilish regardless. There's no way he didn't have ill intent with the way it was voiced and directed.

>>152679333
>absent any human emotions or ethics whatsoever
>ethics
This is the problem. It's one thing to have a character make disgusting decisions which are ultimately for the greater good - which what Kyubey claims he is doing. Causing an endless cycle of hope and despair to generate power for the universe is disgusting, but justifiable.

But it doesn't make sense if that character disregards morality to this end. If it's a passionate character, it's perfectly fine - he's too distracted by his goals to care for morals. But Kyubey is supposed to be a perfectly logical and moral being. The fact that he plainly fucking isn't is a gaping plot hole.

>>152679209
>spamming madoka threads to complain about shipping.
Or, you know, the much more likely conclusion, you are actually a problem and many people want you to stop shitting up threads.

It amazes me how shitposters think they are actually entitled to act badly and post however bad they want as if there are no standards at all.

>>152679454
>But it doesn't make sense if that character disregards morality to this end. If it's a passionate character, it's perfectly fine - he's too distracted by his goals to care for morals. But Kyubey is supposed to be a perfectly logical and moral being. The fact that he plainly fucking isn't is a gaping plot hole.

... and just where the FUCK did you get THAT impression? A fucking extra-dimensional ALIEN is supposed to be "perfectly logical and moral?" He's fucking Kyuubey, not Q! Please tell me where in the show this was stated.

>>152679193
Have you watched the show at all, it is mentioned jarringly in one of the episodes about Kyoko and Sayaka, not to mention the entire basis of the witch transformation, also the wishes, any wish that generates a lot of hope will result in an equal amount of despair for example, Kyoko's family, also Madoka's soul gem is literally coated in gigantic amounts of hope and despair

>>152679016
>Again with the diversion.
Are you for real?
You started this topic with this post (or at least I assume it was you) >>152677890
And continued with this one >>152678324
So I was supposed to ignore your bullshit about Precure not being dark? I just corrected you.

I also said this
>And this has nothing to do with wether other magical girls shows are dark or not, you were arguing that it wasn't clear Madoka was going to be dark. >>152678242
But it didn't stop you from bringing the topic back again.

>This was generally assumed to be an eye-catch to lure people into the show.
But I never assumed that myself. Can you stop relying on "it was assumed", "people said", "everyone thought" or shit like that?

>No one took it to mean that one of the main cast was going to die in episode 3
It wasn't only the intro, it was also Homura acting all serious, chasing Kyuubey, the music, the weird designs of the witches and familiars even back in episode 1.
It was also Homura desperately trying to prevent Mami from going to fight Charlotte (first death-flag). At that point I was assuming Sayaka was going to die. But then we got the second death-flag: Mami telling Madoka they were going to make a magical girl duo and eat a big cake. I was then pretty sure Mami was going to die, and watched the rest of the episode expecting her to die at any moment.

Maybe I'm a really special person and the only one that could read the tone and see the foreshadowing, but I highly doubt it.
I think it's more that intelligent people now avoid Madoka threads.

>>152679205
>Which completely destroys the rest of his character, and stated goals.

Not at all. He has his goal which he's always working towards, but there are some things he isn't willing to do to achieve them.

>>152679214
It's been a while since I've seen Madoka, but as I remember it, Kyubey never directly tells a lie. He tells misleading truths, and justifies it by saying that if a human makes a bad decision based on correct information, the human's poor judgment is the cause of their misfortune. From his own perspective, he's playing fair.

>>152679508
The scene where he fucking explains his goals.

He explains how, ultimately, what he is doing is for the greater good. He's fighting entropy, which benefits everyone in the universe. He has no emotions, and neither does anyone in his race, allowing him to make harsh decisions that are for the best in the end.

This is the basic fucking premise of Kyubey's character. An emotionless, but logical, agent attempting to achieve good through nefarious means.

But. Even if we pretend this isn't this case - that makes the situation worse. If Kyubey isn't supposed to be a moral agent... then he's just a dickhead. Who the fuck cares what his goals are, if he's going to commit genocide when it's entirely not needed?

>>152679705
>Not at all. He has his goal which he's always working towards, but there are some things he isn't willing to do to achieve them.
Like not destroy humanity? He doesn't give wishes to plenty of other people. What's the problem, here?

>>152679530
>any wish that generates a lot of hope will result in an equal amount of despair

He was just pointing out the inevitable consequences of human wishes being flawed. Smug little shit was adhering rigidly to his contracts - from his point of view, probably, it was "ethical-" knowing full well that no human, and especially not young girls, could possibly think through all the possible consequences of any one wish. It's almost inevitable that the ripple effects from warping reality like that are going to dick over some people even as it helps others. From Kyuubey's point of view it doesn't matter one damn bit if the emotions are positive or negative; they're all energy.

Until Madoka managed to pull an end-run around him with her wish, that is.

>It was also Homura desperately trying to prevent Mami from going to fight Charlotte (first death-flag). At that point I was assuming Sayaka was going to die. But then we got the second death-flag: Mami telling Madoka they were going to make a magical girl duo and eat a big cake. I was then pretty sure Mami was going to die, and watched the rest of the episode expecting her to die at any moment.

I doubt Homura's insistence was due to her expecting Mami to die - when the ribbons vanish and release her, she even comments on it; "I can't believe it," or something to that effect. She obviously knows Mami's skill, and as we see in the series (and Rebellion) Mami can pretty much whip Homura's ass, and Homura has a hundred years of effective fighting experience. "We'll live happily ever after" is a death flag, sure - but only if you actually think it's a series prone to deaths. And even in *those* you typically don't whack a main character in episode *three.*

But good for you for being such an intellectual titan. Enjoy your fedora and cheap cigar this afternoon, you earned it buddy.

>>152679729
Morality is overrated, Christians.

*tips*

>>152679729
>This is the basic fucking premise of Kyubey's character. An emotionless, but logical, agent attempting to achieve good through nefarious means.

Are you completely incapable of understanding that a FUCKING EXTRA DIMENSIONAL ALIEN might define "good" and "bad" differently than we do?

>>152675538
>But it's hailed as this amazing work with deep meaning and amazing plot,

if you go into an anime/book with this mindset, you are setting yourself up to not liking it or not as much already. everyone anywhere can tell you the exact same thing about anything, I heard this book was on of the best but I don't think its true, I heard this restaurant is the best but I don't think its true etc etc etc.

not saying that you can't have different opinions but I think it futile to make blanketed statements like "it's kind of trash" the show doesn't fulfill your particular interests but it doesn't mean that it doesn't for others.

>>152679676
>You started this topic with this post
No, I did not.
>When I responded to and with "dark", then it was only in the context of the darker aspects of the story of Madoka.
You were the one who couldn't stick to the topic. The posts you quote are in response to >>152677857
>it never "jumped genre".

>>152679676
>it was also Homura acting all serious, chasing Kyuubey, the music, the weird designs of the witches and familiars even back in episode 1.
See >>152678191.

>>152679676
>But I never assumed that myself.
This discussion literally STARTED because of >>152676880 claiming that everything was predictable. Seriously, stay on topic.

I actually attempted suicide 7 days after the show ended on April 21st 2011.

You may interpret that as you'd like.

>>152676578
>>>r/anime

>>152679876
That your combat skills are so bad that you can't even kill somebody who doesn't try to defend herself?

>>152679876
Nice blog

How you holding up these days?

>>152679821
That would be an interesting idea.

If the show gave any suggestion what-so-ever that this is the case.

When talking to Madoka, he clearly thinks that this isn't some weird thing only his race believes. Rather, he's explaining it because he thinks it's the obviously correct thing that even Madoka could agree with. He adds in that it will benefit humanity too, in the long run. He explains himself as a completely moral agents, as according to a human utilitarian.

The fact of the matter is he's lying to some extent, considering the bit about humans and his decision to kill the entire fucking race, but the question how far is he lying? Is he also lying that this is the moral decision? Maybe his race is just selfish and wants to live, even if they have to commit genocide for it. Hell, maybe he was lying about the entropy bit too, considering we can't trust anything else he said.

>>152679960
>When talking to Madoka, he clearly thinks that this isn't some weird thing only his race believes. Rather, he's explaining it because he thinks it's the obviously correct thing that even Madoka could agree with. He adds in that it will benefit humanity too, in the long run. He explains himself as a completely moral agents, as according to a human utilitarian.

Could it possibly be that the manipulative little shit who is looking to ruthlessly exploit humanity for his own gain is deliberately lying by omission? Bruh. Nothing he says is technically a lie - from HIS point of view.

>>152679761
But he didn't destroy humanity. Humanity destroyed itself through its own poor judgment. Kyubey provided the means but he clearly doesn't feel responsible for whatever people do with it.

>>152679792
Still Kyubey's race discovered the concept of magical girl which turns into witch and spreads as much despair as they did hope, even if the wishes are naturally corrupted or twisted by incubators, the hope and despair mechanic still existed, when Madoka wishes to kill all witches they circumvent it by manifesting in a different form.

>>152680044
>lying by omission
Saying that humanity is going to also benefit from his work to stop entropy when he is planning to kill them all isn't a lie by omission. It's a straight up, bald-faced lie.

>>152679853
Wow, you're really something.

I agree with this
>That it was going to be a dark and edgy show was incredibly obvious from episode 1. Episode 3 only shocks people who are incapable of thought.
And I assume you are in the category of "people who are incapable of thought" since you can't even have a fucking conversation on an imageboard.
I'm not going to respond to further posts because you're either a troll or a retard and in any case I can't do anything for you.

>>152680105
>Saying that humanity is going to also benefit from his work to stop entropy when he is planning to kill them all isn't a lie by omission. It's a straight up, bald-faced lie.

THAT WASN'T HIS FUCKING PLAN TO BEGIN WITH, NUMBNUTS. HE NEVER FUCKING EXPECTED MADOKA TO BECOME AS POWERFUL AS SHE DID.

HOLY

FUCKING

I'm done

I'm out

peace

>>152679939
Kinda wish I hadn't called for help desu. I got better, but people treat me too differently. Like they're afraid of driving me into trying again.

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Why is madoka so popular in the doujin scene? To be honest, it doesnt seem like that kind of show that would be popular for doujins.

I can think of plenty of other series that would make better doujin material. Muv luv for example.

>>152679028
>>152679070
Yeah, I really liked Sayaka's character arc. Best thing about the show.

>>152675538
>it's kind of trash
I've noticed that the people that call Madoka trash also usually call other shows like Neon Genesis Evangelion trash, as can be seen in several posts in this thread. I'm not saying Madoka is anything like Evangelion, but I do think it's interesting that the same sort of person tends to dislike both. I wonder why that is?

>>152680300
Something else to note is that this thread follows the usual pattern. If you see this image as the OP, you can expect a bait thread.

>>152680300
they probably dislike any show that doesnt end in a happy ending. The kind of peope who love the typical battle shounen for example.

>>152680173
You apparently don't understand what I'm trying to say, so let me restate myself clearer.
Option A: Kyubey plans to let humanity one day join the aliens and benefit from his work to stop entropy. This is his stated goal.
Option B: Humanity plans to kill humanity at some point. He was lying about his stated goal.

If Option A is true, then he has no reason to allow Madoka to become a magical girl. It'd destroy the Earth for at best a temporary gain.

If Option B is true, then his speech with Madoka is a lie. His goals stay consistent throughout the show, as far as we know, so it's not like anything changes when he offers the deal to Madoka.

>>152680300
People tend to think that any attempt at abstraction is trying too hard.

>>152680173
He tells Homura that her time travelling added to the fate of Madoka becoming a magical girl after 100 loops, he is smart and he investigates, he could have ended the cycle with many opportunities but he had to decide to wait until she had basically God magical potential

>>152675538
Rebellion ruined the whole series. I'm never watched a movie sequel to a series ever again (when it comes to anime)

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>>152679070
>>152680283
My niggas. She was the only character in the show that got me emotional.

>>152680404
I'd say it's option C: QB is merely farming humanity for energy. QB isn't actively planning to end humanity at any point but if they end up becoming unprofitable they'll move to a better source of entropy, not caring what happens to humanity.

>>152680522
Nothing changed to make humanity unprofitable.

As humanity can act as a near-indefinite energy resource, the only reason Kyubey has for allowing Madoka to destroy the world is if destroying the world was already planned, or that humans never had any moral weight what-so-ever. Either case makes Kyubey a liar.

>>152680640
you know what else is a near indefinate energy resource? The sun.

>>152680640
I didn't say that humanity became unprofitable. I'm saying that if it were to happen, QB would just move on to a better option.
Also QB was shown to be capable of lying for his own convenience. He made Kyoto believe that there was a possibility that Sayaka could turn back after she became a witch.

>>152680702
I'm sorry, near-indefinite negentropy pump, then.

>>152680640
>>152680702
>indefinite
I think you guys mean infinite.
And no, the sun is not near infinite in its energy volume when considering an intergalactic scale.

>>152680300
What the other anons said.
Also, I've only started being a regular on /a/ a few month ago and tried a few times to participate in Madoka threads. Only once did I manage to have a succesful discussion. I think that those who know what they're talking about also know very well that Madoka threads are terrible (even when the usual shitposters happen to be absent) and avoid them.

That's why you mostly see retarded argument against Madoka wrote by people with little brain.

>>152680754
Okay? Kyubey's actions in the show are still unjustifiable, then.

>>152680814
Don't you have a wall to build Pablo?

>>152680770
its a lot nearer to infinite than a bunch of mahou shoujo on one planet.

I mean, they arent farming humans or anything, the whole contracting process and waiting till they get killed by witches (which can take years, see Mami) is horribly inefficient if your aim was to maximize energy output.

>>152680871
How so? He's acting with as much empathy as humans do with their cattle. We give cattle well-fed lives, QB grants impossible wishes. Both cattle and humans die for a good cause.

>>152680814
It's because the Madoka fanbase contains a disproportionately high number of retards, hope this helps.

>>152680871
It's totally justifiable as long as you're an alien to whom human morality means nothing.

>>152680948
but why? naze?

>>152677500
>what does show say about sacrifice? Is it good or bad?

I...are you fucking serious? You say there's no substance and then come up with this incredibly simplistic binary view of a theme that is explored in the show, which covers the nuances of each position and leaves the viewer to interpret for themselves on which stance is correct. This is your "analysis"?

>why is Kyubey evil

When did anyone say he is? Again, there's a moral grey spot here, which you apparently cannot comprehend. Also, antagonists don't have to be evil, unless you're reading some simplistic fairy tale made for grade schoolers (not that there's anything wrong with that).

>The show is supposed to be about Madoka maturing and becoming more cynical as she gains knowledge, right?

...No? No it isn't. The show is about a lot of things, but Madoka actually never becomes cynical in the face of reality, and the ending of the show is her rejecting that cynicism.

>Leaving aside the fact that she never fucking changes the entire show

She very clearly does, the point being that Madoka was always indecisive and scared into inaction, but resolves to proactively help the situation in the last episode, something that had an entire scene dedicated to it when Madoka talks to her mom about it in the last episode.

And this is why I can't trust contrarians who say Madoka has no substance.

>muh analysis

Then they spew this simplistic shit which is below most high school levels of reading comprehension and get themes completely wrong.

>>152680754
> He made Kyoto believe that there was a possibility that Sayaka could turn back after she became a witch.
He said that it may be possible, as far as he knew it wasn't possible, but he's not omniscient, maybe there is a way to turn someone back

>>152680940
Humans can't have any moral weight to him, because if they did he wouldn't allow them to die out just because it's faster to take the energy from Madoka. Even we aren't willing to commit genocide on all cattle just to get food faster.

>>152680988
Repeating myself, but Kyubey claims to be perfectly justifiable to Madoka, which implies he thinks his morality makes perfect sense, even to a human.

If I have to solve a plot hole by saying that a character was constantly lying and also probably has a belief system so bizzare it's literally incomprehensible to me, that's a bad sign.

>>152681036
I don't know, anon.

>>152680892
No, it isn't, energy from the sun is matter dependent, that's why they went with energy from emotions.

>>152681145
>
Repeating myself, but Kyubey claims to be perfectly justifiable to Madoka, which implies he thinks his morality makes perfect sense, even to a human.
You think morality is objective? That everyone views what is right and wrong the same way?

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>>152681120
That's what he told Kyoto to make her believe it was possible. He told Homura that it wasn't and that he lied to force Madoka into becoming a magical girl. Watch the last scene of episode 9 again.

>>152681145
QB isn't commiting genocide though. He only uses some magical girls in preteen years.

>>152681099
>You say there's no substance and then come up with this incredibly simplistic binary view of a theme that is explored in the show, which covers the nuances of each position and leaves the viewer to interpret for themselves on which stance is correct.
What nuances? Sayaka trying to be a good person and sacrificing herself for the people she cares about and her ideals is wrong and bad. Madoka doing the exact same fucking thing is perfectly alright, though. There isn't a detailed and nuanced view in the show, it's brought up as a concept and then nothing is fucking done with it. There's a difference between leaving things up to the viewer to decide and doing literally nothing.

>When did anyone say he is?
Still in the middle of a huge debate over this, but I'm arguing he's unambiguously evil. His stated motives differ wildly from his actual actions, bringing into question whether his claim of being morally justified were ever valid. I'd have been fine with Kyubey creating an endless cycle of despair and hope to create negentropy, it's his genocide I disagree with.

>Madoka was always indecisive and scared into inaction, but resolves to proactively help the situation in the last episode
... Madoka's character arc is supposed to be that she does a single thing?

Are you serious?

>>152681220
emotions require matter to exist. No human = no emotions. Humans are a form of matter.

>>152681273
Kyubey appears to think it is. Otherwise he wouldn't have attempted to convince Madoka.

>>152681330
He lets the witch Madoka destroy the planet.

>>152675538
>But it's hailed as this amazing work with deep meaning and amazing plot
No it isn't.

>>152681457
He explicitly said that he filled the quota for the planet and has no use of it anymore. He's not doing it to kill humans you doofus. He just doesn't care.

>>152675538

This thread is trash.

People who didn't watch the show with any attention, doesn't like magical girls or doesn't like the premise of the theme itself are being critical without addressing any of the things that this show is about. It's all falling flat, you don't even understand enough to criticise it properly.

>>152675538
Largely I'm ambivalent about Meguca outside of Mami gangbang porn, but I think it' more sensible that we should examine it from the historical context.

At the time, Madoka was the new kid on the block for anime. It had done something new and fascinating in mixing magical girls with an honestly depressing setting AND having it be aesthetically pleasing for what it is.

It's mediocre now, but that's because we've been drowned in it and milked for it to the very last drop and beyond with various spinoffs and endless speculah, memes, and the actual continuations of the story.

Whether or not it's objectively great, it's made it's mark on the industry and set its own standard, a la Evangelion or Star Wars. It's here to stay.

>>152681145
He doesn't know what makes sense to a human. He himself says that he cannnot understand humans.

His belief system really isn't complicated. Here's what we can infer:

Outright lying is not okay.
Misleading partial truths are okay.
Allowing humans to be harmed as a result of their own decisions is okay, even if that harm goes so far as destroying the entire species. Kyubey is not morally accountable for that harm, even if he provided the means that allowed it to happen.

Kyubey choosing to take Madoka's energy at the cost of losing humanity is not a plot hole. It may be that Madoka's energy was so great that it would take centuries or even longer to acquire an equivalent amount from humanity, and Kyubey may have felt that it would be more practical to take that energy now and then seek out another usable species. Since Madoka's wish had enough power to rewrite the universe, it may be that Kyubey could have used it to rewrite the universe such that entropy is no longer a threat.

Kyubey allowing humanity to be destroyed is not a plot hole, nor does it constitute lying. While the destruction of humanity is something he is willing to allow, he himself did not intend for it to happen. It was not his plan or his goal, and he may well have preferred that humankind would one day become a starfaring race. But regardless of whether or not he cares about the survival of humanity, the entropy problem takes precedence.

>>152681821
That has nothing to do with the actual show though.

With that thinking, Mobile Suit Gundam is the greatest anime of all time.

>>152675538
Overrated but not competely bad.

>>152681330
He may not commiting genocide but it is definitely not beneficial to Earth.

>>152681405
>What nuances? Sayaka trying to be a good person and sacrificing herself for the people she cares about and her ideals is wrong and bad. Madoka doing the exact same fucking thing is perfectly alright, though
fucking dumb comparison. the two examples there are nothing alike. sayaka made her decision on a whim, without thinking it through and with an expectation of a reward of some sort. madoka made her decision after 12 episodes of thought and character development, after getting as much of the facts as possible, carefully wording her wish in such a way that it wouldn't easily go wrong, and going out of her way to not expect a reward for her deed. that comment only proves that you completely missed the point of that entire plot thread. what goes wrong in sayaka's sacrifice is how madoka knows what not to do/wish for later on.
>His stated motives differ wildly from his actual actions, bringing into question whether his claim of being morally justified were ever valid.
could it possibly be that *he* thinks he's perfectly moral, but is simply wrong because he's simply assuming everyone thinks like his species does? as in, what is implied in the show? it's not a black and white "morally justified or knowingly evil". remember, his own species are all the same and don't have individual identities, why would understand the pain caused by human death if the deaths of members of their species doesn't matter to them?
>. Madoka's character arc is supposed to be that she does a single thing?

Are you serious?
yes. why is that bad? it's a completely legitimate form of character development that even "serious" art works have used.

>>152683339
>yes. why is that bad? it's a completely legitimate form of character development that even "serious" art works have used.
While I think you may be getting trolled, this so fucking much. One of the most obnoxious arguments I've heard people unironically put out.

>...Hamlet's character arc is supposed to be that he does a single thing?
>...Brutus' character arc is supposed to be that he does a single thing?
>...Jesus' character arc is supposed to be that he does a single thing?

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Man, most of these arguments are completely missing that self-sacrifice is not at all the theme of Madoka. The theme was highlighting that all actions are inherently selfish and self-serving.

Sayaka heals Kyousuke's arm with the intent of him loving her for it. She galavants and acts like a hero and then breaks down because the world isn't as fucking simple as she thought. People don't treat her like a hero, she's weaker than anyone else in the cast. and ultimately she's a hypocrite. It's in her moment of death that she admits Kyouko was right.

Mami saves herself when she could have saved her family too. She goes around acting like a hero because she has no other reason to live and lies to herself.

Kyouko wanted people to listen to her father because she was angry no one paid attention to him and instead invalidated his faith in god and himself. She then goes around and acts like a hardened bad ass. Sayaka doesn't *win*. She lose badly. Witchification proved that life was nothing but suffering and there was no hope in the univeerse. Kyouko's sacrifice is essentially saying that she knows Sayaka and her old way of think are bullshit, but she'd rather die on her own terms then continue living.

Homura doesn't just want to save Madoka. She wants to be the one to protect Madoka. She wants to be Madoka's knight and saviour. And while this is never addressed in series, it rears its head in Rebellion.

Madoka herself is the only one who eventually made a selfless wish. She became hope in a universe without hope. In the previous timelines, she made wishes to make herself feel better about herself. Her final wish was a wish that was at the expense of herself for others. And she will suffer for eternity for it, but it is a true self sacrifice.

How the fuck can people claim there no depth in this series especially compared to the typical CGDCT /a/ creams itself over?

>>152683496
Madoka's entire character arc is building up the courage to make a wish worth her life. She has the most screen time, most interactions with other characters, and does the most to move the plot along. How is this hard to understand?

>>152683973
Reading comprehension, please use it. I'm agreeing with you that it's a perfectly valid character arc.

>>152681826
When you take into account Rebellion though, QB definitely becomes a lot more clearly malevolent. The entire plot of that movie is how poisonous greed is. Madoka was considerate enough in creating the LoC that she even supplied QB with the negentropy it needed, if at a reduced rate. Instead of taking this contentedly, the Incubators are lured by the prospect of even greater riches, subjecting Homura to an experiment and attempting to subvert everything Madoka had done. Some attribute this to a sanity slippage on QB's part resulting from Madoka's wish, but I find it equally plausible that Rebellion is where we begin to see the mask of the Incubator's high road slip off. True to their nature as a living organism, their first and only true interest is in preserving their own existence. They were willing to let humanity die in the series, because behind all the rhetoric, they don't actually care about us. They had been playing humanity for fools and raising them as crops, and their transgression in Rebellion is the grave they themselves dug.

>>152685009
If you take Rebellion into account, Kyubey is much more of a generic villain, yes.

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>>152675538
No you're right, Madoka is extremely mediocre.
Everything it tried to do, Utena did it better 13 years earlier.

>>152686408
But Madoka and Utena didn't even do the same things in the first place. Madoka is about a series of plot twists and a struggle against seemingly inevitable failure, where the characters are just cardboard cutouts used to move things along. With Utena the characters themselves are the point, it's fundamentally different.

I actually agree that Utena is the higher quality show between the two.

Yeah man, the anime feels mediocre I agree. But you can't deny that everything surrounding its release was amazing.

Much like Kill la kill, Madoka is one of these ''You had to be there'' kind of shows. Not that anyone new to the medium can't watch it with the same joy than those who did while it was airing. But once you get used to the emotion behind the cliche it used to become popular, it sort of becomes mediocre.

>>152686762
They're fundamentally the same. Both are more mature takes on the mahou shoujo formula.
Both are about childish beliefs and moral being crushed by reality, and about the difference between self serving egoism and selfless sacrifice.
Then of course everything, from the characterization, the direction and the nuance the themes are handled, is extremely superior in Utena.

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>>152686275
Unlike some, I don't think Rebellion is some tangential shark-jumping. It actually flows very logically with the series, especially Homura's slow breakdown into perhaps the most disfunctional party to a relationship in all of anime. I think Shaft is trying to make a point that a lot of self-proclaimed utilitarians are really just trying to cloak their own self-interest in noblesse.

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>>152686978
Nah, Kill la Kill was actually good.
I enjoyed it more with every rewatch.

>>152683855
>How the fuck can people claim there no depth in this series especially compared to the typical CGDCT /a/ creams itself over?

Because none of those things you mentioned are explored in a deep way. Depth isn't about which ideas you explore, it's about how thoroughly you explore them. Certainly a writer could tell an intelligent story about human hypocrisy and selfishness that shows a real understanding of the psychology behind those things, but you'd need someone much better and smarter than Urobuchi to pull it off.

And I could be wrong but I don't think your typical fan of Girls Und Panzer or Non Non Biyori will claim depth as their show's strong point. I think they know that depth is not always the point.

For some reason, certain fanbases (Madoka, Nisio Isin, Type Moon...) are really insecure about whether their favorite shows are deep or not, and will grasp at the flimsiest of straws to prove that they aren't shallow (they are).

>>152675538
In what way is it edgy? Dark does not automatically mean edgy. Mahou Shoujo Ikusei Keikasu or whatever the fuck it's called is edgy, but Madoka is just dark.

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>>152676228
Nanoha is okay but the first half or so (everything before Fate shows up) is borderline unwatchable. Yuuki Yuuna combined SoL with magical girl stuff much better.

>>152687030
Yeah where there's overlap, Utena is the better of the two, but there are also things Madoka does that doesn't overlap with Utena, so it's not quite right to say that "Everything it tried to do, Utena did it better."

I object to Madoka being called a mature take on the mahou shoujo formula, unless you mean it in the sense that violent video games are rated as mature. If you mean mature as in "having an adult's sense of awareness and understanding" then there are even mahou shoujo targeted at literal children that are more mature than Madoka.

>>152687810
Don't mind me jumping into this conversation but I couldn't get very far in Yuuki Yuuna because I thought the SOL elements were too corny and forced.

>>152687484
I don't know where you're coming from on this one. If anything, a lot of the emotional heft of Madoka is that it is a magical girl story with characters who really do behave like young schoolgirls, and not some kind of serene superheroes. Even QB is actually more human than most give him credit for. Utilitarianism is a thing, and there are people who wholeheartedly subscribe to it. And the lack of genuine emotion is simple psychopathy, a trait that is scientifically known to be very prevalent among business and political leaders. That's real psychology, not the Freudian mumbo-jumbo that Eva sticks its dick into.

>>152687086
I think the writers at Shaft aren't smart enough to say anything useful about utilitarianism, or any other ethical philosophy, and we'd all be better off if they stuck to drawing cool fight scenes or writing funny jokes.

>>152677500
Sayaka got into her situation becasue she placed an unreasonable burden on herself without fully knowing or accepting the consequences. She wasn't honest with herself, and in fact was wilfully dishonest, about what she truly wanted: Kyousuke's love. It was something that she didn't need to make a wish for, it was potentially in front of her the entire time. She made an incredibly shallow wish and then realized that she had thrown away her normal life for it, and when she realized that she regretted it she decided that she must therefore be worthless. Kyouko wasn't so much about self-sacrifice as much as the universe decided to take a giant dump on her. What makes Madoka different from Sayaka is that Madoka knew exactly what she was getting into and was prepared to accept that, and even Rebellion throws the question of whether or not it was ultimately the right thing into question.

Kyubey is not evil in that he purely has the best interest of the universe at heart. He can't be evil because he has no emotions, and that's why the megucas end up despising him, because he's impossible to understand, unlike the Witches who were once human.

>>152679028
Homura because she is cute and cool and basically answered that age-old question of "why don't they just use guns"

>>152677500
Madoka is a show about expectation.

It gave us a cute, frilly, kind girl who was below average at everything and searching for purpose in her life, delivered a legendary destiny to her doorstep, and then didn't have her transform until the final episode. Its enigmatic mascot insisted our girl was going to change the world and save lives, but also intentionally obscured the truth about the price of that power.

It teased the beginning of a team that looked like it would go on to confront the creeping darkness, then bit its head off. Then girl after girl who thought they were nobly sacrificing themselves for the ones they loved the way magical girls are supposed to, only to monkeypaw their wishes.

The show has no core if you don't expect things to happen a certain way to begin with. And maybe you didn't. But then maybe it's time to accept that the show wasn't made for you.

>>152683855
To be fair to Mami, she was fucking dying and needed to make a wish fast, so it's understandable that she wasn't exactly thinking straight.

Also Rebellion is about how fanfiction is bad

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>>152687863
How were they forced? The SoL is one half of Yuuki Yuuna, and its modus operandi is to get you to heavily invest in the girls and their normal lives before gutpunching you.

Madoka is a bit ambiguous on the idea of self-sacrifice but ultimately portrays it as noble. YuYuYu's answer is a resounding "fuck that shit".

Also the prequel LN currently being published gets incredibly dark and has a high body count.

Homura > Kyouko > Madoka > Mami > Sayakuck

>>152688013
>Kyubey is not evil in that he purely has the best interest of the universe at heart
So he says. We really have no evidence one way or the other.
>He can't be evil because he has no emotions
The fact that he claims to have respect for us, "as sentient beings", and therefore never doing things without individual consent, no matter how tortured, shows that he understands at some level, even if it's a purely intellectual one, that we are intelligent, individualistic, and have independent wills. If he truly didn't understand any of that, then he'd be dangerous, but not evil, like rabid animals are. The fact that he understands our psychology (so well in fact he can use it to manipulate people) and that we are sentient in the same way he is, that is what gives the Incubators the culpability to be called evil. It's like that episode of Star Trek where the aliens claim not to understand the concept of right and wrong — until Picard traps them in a confinement field, which they react negatively to, and therefore demonstrating one of the underpinnings of all earthly morality: the Golden Rule.

When I read comments like "I don't think it was a masterpiece but it was good nonetheless" it's a good sign we are in front of an actual masterpiece.
I mean, it didn't blown me away either, but it was still a better watch than anything that aired last year.

Interest in the brand still hasn't vanished and it stood the test of time.

It isn't wrong to like a less renowned anime more, but to claim this isn't among the most delicious cream of what anime has to offer is clearly purposely making yourself blind to truth.

>>152687810
>>152687863
>>152688332
I think Yuuki Yuuna doesn't dismiss the idea of self-sacrifice, but it says there are limits to that, one of which is you can't make sacrifices out of other people who haven't agreed to it (the trolley dilemma), and that you have to have something your willing to sacrifice for (is a marginal existence on a rather small island in servitude to some kinda tree-god, surrounded by a world of fire and destruction, really something worth sacrificing one's happiness for?)

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>>152688402
character wise: Homura > Kyouko > Mami > Madoka > Sayaka

body wise: Mami ≥ Sayaka > Kyouko > Homura > Madoka

>>152688927
>body wise
>Madoka last
Literally homosexual.

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>>152688792
YuYuYu is pretty firmly against the idea of self-sacrifice. Just look at Yuuna and how she always does things because "she's a Hero." When she tries to use that argument on Tougou in Episode 12, Tougou completely shuts her down. Yuuna only manages to convince Tougou to stand down by emphasizing their friendship (lol) and telling her that she wants to always be together, even in suffering. Look at Karin, whose awesome fight is a culmination of her character development where she goes from a Hero of the Taisha, the nebulous "greater good", to someone who fights for the Hero Club, for the sake of her friends.

Also the Taisha may not be evil but they're massive pieces of shit.

>>152677659
What a shit season Winter 2011 was. Jesus.

>>152687890
>If anything, a lot of the emotional heft of Madoka is that it is a magical girl story with characters who really do behave like young schoolgirls, and not some kind of serene superheroes

This is one of the problem with Madoka fans - they think their opinions on other mahou shoujo shows matter when they haven't seen them. Like, Sailor Moon is afraid of the monsters she has to fight too. She also worries that she and her friends are gonna get killed. But unlike Madoka characters, Usagi has her own likes, dislikes, hopes, and relationships with other characters that require more than one word to fully describe.

Far from having characters who behave like real young schoolgirls, Madoka might have the least human-like characters of any mahou shoujo I've seen. I say "might" is because I've seen Flip Flappers and that show somehow struggles to make its characters even one dimensional.

>>152689368
>The Taisha may not be evil
Some people claim that the LNs demonstrate that they're not evil, but just massively incompetent. I don't see how the Taisha could possibly NOT be evil, not to mention that stupidity and evil are certainly not mutually exclusive.

I really don't get why people call Madoka "edgy" or "grimdark". Lots of bad shit happens but the TV she's ending while bittersweet is still hopeful. You might as well call Lord of the Rings edgy.

Personally I watched the show at a time when I was just out of school, hopelessly unemployable, and wondering if my poor choices had fucked up my life forever. I found the show very resonant and also consoling.

Turns out I did fuck things up forever, so Rebellion felt pretty resonant too.

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>>152689899
I'm sure it's not forever, anon
Besides, we still have the final movie for us to await!

>>152689763
that list is not accurate

>>152689836
>comparing the character depth of 50+ episode anime to 12 episode originals

woah dude that's a really good point you made!

>>152689836
>But unlike Madoka characters, Usagi has her own likes, dislikes, hopes, and relationships with other characters that require more than one word to fully describe.
Describe Madoka characters in 1 word.

>>152690183
Shallow.

>>152689836
Well gosh, Usagi doesn't seem well-developed as a character at all compared to Gintoki, so I guess we can discard those opinions too.
Or maybe-- just maybe-- Madoka developed its characters quite well in only 12 episodes.

>>152690250
Since when are any of them shallow? If any of them could by called shallow, it's probably Hitomi, who's barely a character.

Honestly say what you will about the show but I feel that the fact that to this day it continues to generate this much controversy and discussion definitely gives it some form of merit. 6 years strong and people are still arguing about it just as vehemently as ever. I'd consider that pretty significant.

>>152680300
>>152688606
>>152690313
It's unironically the NGE of the 2010s for these reasons.

>>152690250
What do you consider shallow? Not trying to argue, I'm honestly curious. Describe a character you wouldn't call shallow, and describe what a character you would call shallow is lacking in comparison.

>>152689836
>Far from having characters who behave like real young schoolgirls, Madoka might have the least human-like characters of any mahou shoujo I've seen. I say "might" is because I've seen Flip Flappers and that show somehow struggles to make its characters even one dimensional.
I couldn't agree more. The fact that these series with FAR worse characterization than the average Precure series are the most praised in the anime community is honestly baffling.

I've also considered it complimentary that /a/ dubs a show as popular as Madoka 'mediocre' instead of 'the worst piece of garbage in history'.

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>>152690344
NGE is the anime of Nietzsche/postmodernism while Madoka is the anime of Hegel/materialism. They generate a lot of discussion because the philosophies behind them are still widely debated and contended, yet they put them into a form that's much more engaging than some 19th-century tome.

>>152690183
You can describe their relationships in one word. Madoka and Sayaka are "friends." What do they like about each other? What do they dislike? What kinds of things do they do together? There is no answer to these questions.

>>152690128
>>152690271
Good writers can establish compelling characters in a short amount of time. The problem is that Urobuchi isn't a good writer. The protagonist of Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita shows immense personality, and that's just a 12 episode show. Utena shows more personality and individuality in the first episode than any Madoka character shows across the entire series.

>>152690986
That's a problem with everything he writes. He writes plot devices, not characters, so they feel more like robots than real people.

>>152690986
The MC of Jinrui isn't compelling at all IMO. She's pretty fucking bland. She is likable but she is not compelling in the least.

I just watched the first episode of RGU a week ago and you've oversold it. Yes Utena is a compelling character but we're talking about a slow-burning 40 episode versus a 12 episode show that struggled with production due to one of the worst natural disasters in the last 20 years.

>>152690636
"More engaging" = dumbed down until it has lost all meaning, but at least now the average normalfag can easily grasp it.

The level of understanding of philosophy you can get from Madoka is less than you'd get from five minutes of browsing wikipedia. It's not even worth mentioning.

>>152691513
So you agree with him?

>>152677130
Faust

>>152691249
I did not oversell Utena in the least. Within one episode, we can that Utena has an interest in sports, we see the way she behaves towards authority figures and gender roles. She talks about her personal aspiration of becoming a prince who rescues princesses. She shows her propensity for defending the weak and resolving disputes through dueling. Her conversations with Wakaba show a good amount of personality from both of them. It's all far, far more than you get from anyone in Madoka.

What does Madoka like to do? We don't know. We see her listen to music once, and that's all we get. What are her aspirations? All we get are vague things like wanting to be useful and wanting to be cool like Mami. She has no particular opinions on anything (except things not worth mentioning, like that people being murdered or having their lives ruined is bad). Every character is vaguely defined like this.

Likewise, the protagonist of Jinrui, regardless of how bland you may find her, is far more of a "real" person than any Madoka character.

>>152691513
Give me your favorite anime and I assure you that I can "explain" its message in one or two sentences.

>>152675538
Madoka is the best mahou shoujo anime.

>>152693251
Watching anime for its message is a bad idea in the first place.

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>>152693344
Then criticizing Madoka for its message allegedly being "shallow" is dumb.

I personally love Madoka most for its art and musical direction and because I like cute anime girls in general; it's not as if the themes of sacrifice and tragedy in Madoka are overly original.

Like others have said, the fact that the show is still so relentlessly discussed and debated five years later is more proof of its power than any "message" it may have held.

Homura is also really cute and cool and did nothing wrong. I love the idea of fighting magical beings with human weapons.

This OP is pasta.

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Flip Flappers was a great anime despite stumbling a bit in its final arc.

>>152693481
And /a/ will keep trying to fight it. Truly the Space Dandy of landscape architecture.

>>152693552
883

>>152693449
>Then criticizing Madoka for its message allegedly being "shallow" is dumb.

It would be dumb to claim Madoka is worse than other anime for that reason, yes. But it is perfectly sensible to criticize it in response to someone claiming that the philosophy presented in Madoka is somehow worthwhile.

Madoka is not worth watching for its nonexistent intellectual merit, its paper thin characters, or its laughable grasp of philosophy. Good reasons to watch Madoka include its cute Aoki Ume character designs, its visuals and atmosphere, its soundtrack, and its fight scenes.

The Madoka fanbase is full of obvious pseudo-intellectuals who, for whatever reason, refuse to acknowledge its strengths and weaknesses for what they are.

>>152693856
Philosophy isn't something organic in a work, it's based on a combination of personal and author interpretation. We see enough of Madoka and Sayaka in the first few episodes to know what kind of people they are: dumb average schoolgirls, one of whom is a hopelessly romantic tomboy and the other with low self-esteem yet at the same time is a careful thinker. But go ahead and compare a fast-paced 12 episode anime to another 50-episode barnburner.

>>152693985
No matter how many excuses you make for Madoka's garbage characters, they're still garbage characters.

If you think 12 episodes is too little to establish good characters then why would you defend the characters in a 12 episode series? Why would you watch a 12 episode series with the expectation of good characters?

>>152694110
In what way are they garbage characters?
Note that simply being simple and uncomplicated is not a flaw in and of itself.

People comparing Sailor Moon'a character development versus Madoka's are retarded as shit. Do you guys realize that Sailor Moon had more than one hundred episodes to work on it? The characters in Madoka were just tools to tell a story.

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The Incubator is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a scoundrel, parasite, swindler, profiteer, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him an Incubator and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: “I’ve been found out.”

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>>152680466
Sayaka gets too much shit here. She acts exactly like how an average girl would act if in her situation. She isn't an idiot or a fool for doing what she did, she's a child. That's the point. Homura, Kyouko, and Mami are "children" too, but their experiences have forced them into a mental maturity beyond their years. Madoka was just scared and indecisive until the end, to put it bluntly. She and Sayaka, but more the latter, I feel, were meant to embody the ordinary, everyday person, which is the entire reason behind their characters.

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We and we alone have the best social welfare measures. Everything is done for the nation. . . .The Incubators are the incarnation of capitalism.

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>>152694110
One man's trash is another man's treasure, friend.

>>152694162
>Note that simply being simple and uncomplicated is not a flaw in and of itself.

Their personalities are the bare minimum of what you can call a personality. There's nothing to their relationships beyond "x likes y and y loves z." Every character is poorly defined, and what does define them is mostly what happens to them rather than what they do or who they are. The characters' personalities and decisions don't drive the plot, but rather, the plot just sort carries the characters along as it goes.

The series wants to focus on its plot and atmosphere rather than its characters, and that's all well and good, but the characters suffer from that lack of focus. Personally, I think the tragedy and suspense elements of the series would be much stronger if they put more effort into getting the audience to like the characters. It's just that there's next to nothing there for people to like in the first place.

If all you want to see is the plot or the visuals or whatever then the characters work. They get the job done. But then you're not watching the show for the characters, and if the characters themselves aren't a reason for watching the show, then I don't think you can say that the show has good characters.

>>152694396
It doesn't matter why Sailor Moon has better characters than Madoka. The point is that Sailor Moon does, in fact, have better characters, and if that matters to you, you should watch Sailor Moon instead.

>>152695035
Your post is complete trash.

>>152694992
Sayaka was the literal definition of a nice guy. Kyouko deserves better than her.

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>>152695224
Which means It's also, completely, another man's treasure.

>>152675538
It was fine until Rebellion where the plot went up its own arse and Homura developed the power to challenge god Madoka on her own despite the series being explicit in just how much energy it took to make Madoka's god wish.

>>152695236
>bumping

>>152695236
She was a girl with a flawed sense of justice that didn't know much about the world. Or, an average teenager.

>>152695285
Oh fuck off.
You were waiting for a reply.

>>152695236
Most realistic character that acts like a teen & a black & white view of morality.
She's great.

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>>152695319
Aren't we all waiting for replies? Do we not speak, so that we may be spoken to?

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>>152695403
It's not an excuse, I simply post as I please.
>best girl and second best girl
>shit
I think you need to re-evaluate your opinions, friend.

>>152695509
You know that the OP is completely pointless at this point when you have to force your stupid spamming agenda.
And yes, it's shit.

>>152676895
>Still talked about 6 years after it aired
Evangelion was 163 years ago and people are still talking about it. 6 years is nothing.

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>>152695546
>stupid spamming agenda
Posting anime related fanart on a thread about that anime is hardly forcing an agenda.
>it's shit
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, anon.

>>152695644
No, you're going off-topic by posting shit that has nothing to do with the discussion going on. Fuck off with your fanfiction-tier shipping.
Can't seem to be in a good mood right now. Especially involving Madoka.

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>>152695695
The discussion came and went. This is the here and now. Embrace change, and you will be as free as the waves of the ocean.

>>152695816
Honestly, don't you have another thread you'd rather be posting in right now?
You obviously have nothing better to do here just leave & let it die.
If the topic is no longer being discussed that the thread was intended for. Then the thread had already fulfilled it's purpose. No need to drag it on.

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>>152695929
Why must anything serve a singular purpose? An intended function isn't always the only thing something is useful for.

>>152695983
By your point, you're just making this a fanfiction thread at this point.
You're doing through exact opposite of what you need to be doing.
Do you just enjoy spitting others?
Go shitpost elsewhere.

>>152696068
*the exact opposite

>>152695816
>Embrace change
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1TtGQnyPZ6g

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>>152696068
None of us need to do anything. We do as we want, whatever we want may be.

>>152696140
>art is so shit, you can grab any look-alike and say it's them in that image.
Thread is shared by everyone & when it's only audience are two people arguing something that goes nowhere then it needs to die. It's an eyesore.

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>>152696244
The thread is indeed shared. It's public domain, and I, as a member of the public, am using it as I see fit within the boundaries of the guidelines.

>>152689153
Madoka has nothing.

>>152675538
>leddit spacing

>>152696317
>soggy tits homu
Disgusting
You don't even give two shits about any of the pairings you posted, not that you should 'cause they're shit.
You're clearly baiting.

>>152675538
>hey guys have noticed, this show is bad
>it's pretty cool but EDGE
>it also has pretty colors but EDGE EDGE
>it EDGE drew a lot of EDGE of peoEDGEple into likiEDGEng magical girl but EDGE
I'm just telling you how you sound like, masterbaiter.

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>>152695286
If she could challenge god on her own, she would have probably done so in the anime ending. Homura simply found a loophole due to her connection with Madoka, along with the incubator's help.

madoka makes chuunibyo look tame

>>152696244
>eyesore
It's the tamest shit in this thread.

>>152696844
Nothing tamed about a fag spamming shit.

The best part about the show is based Yuki kajiura

>>152680885
The wall will be financed using your money, Bob.

>>152696317
Black x Red is fine, but Yellow x Red is better.

this trash is merely sensationalism
trolling kizz by guro
nothing deep, meaningless
and ugly girls

>>152696975
>Not liking the characters designs.

>>152699224
Both are shit.

>>152699647
Some people cant help it. They have to hate it for nothing.

Childhood is being contrarian and calling Madoka trash because it became popular.

Adulthood is realizing Madoka was actually pretty well written with characters acting perfectly in line with their established quirks and tendencies while staying thematically consistent.

>>152696975
But the character design is nice.

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>>152699647
The character designs are "ok" but nothing special to be honest.

I can think of much better character designs.

>>152689848
Yeah, who ever heard of a government sending young people to fight while manipulating them.

>>152703232
Pic unrelated?

>>152703677
i love slutty mahou shoujo outfits

>>152675538
How is it edgy?