How did they make main battle tanks obsoleted anyway? I

>>150893243
You still see MBTs and APCs, even RPGs, but it seems to be implied that the energy source that powers knightmares is so good that they may as well make a massively inefficient design, with minor mobility benefits.

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>>150893243
cause tanks such shit and only move in 2d

>>150893243
>mecha
>making sense

>>150893243
tank is just a metal box with cannon
knightmare frame can dance in circles around any tank
And I am talking about that generation, not the later ones that can also fly and beamspam

>>150893243
Faster, more maneuverable. They are also much more reasonably sized than most mechs.

The mechanical advancements used in Knightmares were not similarly applied to tanks so as to contrive a reason mechs would be superior.

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>>150893440
plus they dont require a 3 man crew

So they have good mobility. But MBTs have armor, firepower and mobility.

>>150893667
Club the tank with a stick or sword and its dead.

It's mecha, they don't need to make sense. Rule of cool.

They have better mobility over and around the obstacles and can battle in a way intuitive to a human.

If we get into it, they have way bigger target profile and less angled armour. They are also super expensive to build with more complex, more numerous parts, an expensive power plant and super expensive to maintain thanks to all these.

>>150893566
>>150893243
The issue I always have with mechs is how the fuck do the anime dudes handle them?
Moving every limb according to the move you want to do seems like it would be nigh impossible yet the guys inside are usually talking and screaming at other people. How do they do it?

>>150893566
Having 3 crews is actually a good thing.

>>150893243
They are basically tanks with more weapons with more speed and maneuverability. Plus they used state of the art computers and used driving talents more effectively.

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>>150893849
Helicopters get by with two despite being faster and more agile.

>>150893921
from the look of them they have less armor and small caliber weapons. How is that comparable to tanks?

One of the later Full Metal Panic! books had Arm Slaves being forced to retreat when confronted by a tank force in the Sahara. In that environment they didn't stand a chance. They were meant for urban and jungle combat, where they could act as infantry with most of the firepower and armor of a tank.

>>150893791
The interface didn't seem to make a lot of sense, you'd imagine the main advantage of a mech is that it could copy your movements, making what would be an extremely difficult 3 man job into an intuitive 1 man one.

Then again, that would ruin the gratuitous ass shots.

>>150893484
>Faster, more maneuverable
at the expense of armor
With a much larger surface area, a mech needs a lot more armor for a similar level of protection as a tank. If a mecha has any meaningful armor, it would have nearly no mobility.

>>150893538
If mechs can perform riverdance while shooting beam weapons, how are you going to apply that to tanks? they simply have fewer degrees of freedom.

>>150893791
Look at the Kurata, that's a good starter mech.

>>150894465
That may simply be the logical conclusion of armed conflict, don't get hit.

look at all modern militaries, navies have less armor, rely on stealth, planes have basically no armor now, rely on countermeasures, infantry only have a chest plate and SF often don't even wear that, the mobility is more important to them. Tanks are about the only things that have been getting better armor, but that may not last forever.

>>150894631
Quite sure these days the trend is heavy APC due to threat of IEDs.

They show a scene where the tank just goes forwards slowly while they run circles around him, so mostly maneuverability and speed.
But we all know it's just a half assed reason to justify having mechs in a quasi-modern setting, so just suspend your disbelief bruh

Power armour soon.

>>150894631
>don't get hit.

Hard to not get hit with that size. Bullets are fast.

>>150893243
They're not obsolete yet, it's just that the show is set in Japan and the knightmares are supreme in urban environments.

>>150894671
wouldn't surprise me, they serve a similar role. though if it's just to defeat shaped charges, you wouldn't technically need to add more armor to do that.

>>150894703
And distances are long, point being able to evade enemy fire is probably better than being able to take it.

>>150894631
>Tanks are about the only things that have been getting better armor
they're also getting active countermeasures, which don't scale their mass by surface area. mecha can use those too

https://youtu.be/YpmcmKwWzYo?t=86

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>>150893791
presumably its all down to controls and YES the controls are retarded as fuck. this is the only visual example i have. that weird double click setting off the next command

>>150894483
Tanks would have much faster tracking and would have the beam weapons too.

>>150894899
the beam weapons were not relevant to my argument, the riverdance performance is. you still have rotate the entire turret instead of flicking a wrist.

>>150893791
The same everything will be done in the future.
The computer does 99% of the work, the human just gives general directions.

>>150893243

Because they are fictional bullshit that ignores laws of physics.

>>150893440
With technology to make mechs dance around like that would also make tank turrents do a fucking 360 in 1 second.

Mech are cool. But stupid. And overly complex.

>>150895007
>Because they are fictional bullshit that ignores laws of physics.
You're assuming the fictional world has the same technology as ours, Anon.

>>150895073

Yeah, because you can accurately control a humanoid robot with fucking joysticks. And make 20G maneuvers that would turn the pilot into jelly. And make a machine weighting many tons jump on roofs.

>>150893440
>robot ninjas are better than real tanks in my chinese cartoon

well, duh

>>150895111
The movements would HAVE to be mostly AI controlled. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

>>150893243
If the worlds timeline is 80 years ahead, based on Hadrian or whatever, and the show is actually set in like 1945, why is the world so advanced? Why is Tokyo so fucking huge and skyscraper-ey, when it wasn't before reconstruction OTL?

>>150894957
>you still have rotate the entire turret instead of flicking a wrist.
I think I'm done here.

>>150895187
Timeline split at the american revolution, after that all bets are off. Considering they discovered nukes right at the end of the show, it's safe to say they took a wildly different path in technology.

>>150895200
Yes you are done.
If mecha were real they would have been without any shadow of a doubt better than any tank.

>>150895187
The same reason we can make a molecular computer but can't cure cellular diseases in humans. Science is not linear.

>>150894899
tanks just lack in mobility

>>150895271
>If mecha were real they would have been without any shadow of a doubt better than any tank.

That's why mecha aren't real.

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>>150895111
problemo??

>>150895444
For now.
Once robots start inevitably replacing humans they will be real. Albeit smaller.

>>150895485
Gotta keep on believing.

>>150895565
>believing
>http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966

Yeah, you keep believing someone will keep your ass on social aid when you're completely worthless.

>>150895111
>Yeah, because you can accurately control a humanoid robot with fucking joysticks.
AI technology

>And make 20G maneuvers that would turn the pilot into jelly.
Cockpit technology

>And make a machine weighting many tons jump on roofs.
Shoe technology.

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>>150895751
>Shoe technology.

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Tanks
> good on land

Mecha
> Good on land
> good in air
> good at sea
> good in space


dont see a tank pulling off cool poses

>>150895485
just like we have armored zeppelins today

>>150893243
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE9bRYuQ3Y4

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>>150893243
Better maneuverability on rough terrain.
Can be used to build stuff too.
Mecha are also cooler than MBTs.

Not that it matters but IFVs are much, much cooler than tanks.

>>150897148
Nobody's gonna use an expensive giant fucking robot with vulnerable joints that probably consumes the fuel at the end the rate of 10 abrams for construction work.

>>150893440
An mbt can engage a target at 2km though, especially something with such an awful profile as a giant metal man. I nightmare can do all the dancing it want's doesn't change the fact that a real tank would blow it up from a mile away.

>>150897148
Me sitting on top.

>>150897241
Who said anything about fuel?

>>150893956
Helicopters aren't designed to take punishment though. The nice thing about having extra crew is one, it takes stress off of everyone, less multitasking and such, and two, it mean if a crew member dies or is knocked unconscious another crew member can take their place.

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>>150897278
>if we just ignore one important factor suddenly it becomes practical to use giant robots for construction

>>150895003
But that's clearly not true in these shows because the better pilots always fight with more movement and style, meaning it isn't just done by a computer.

>>150893243
japs are still butthurt that their shitty tanks got owned by superior american ones in ww2

>>150897380
Have you even seen a mecha show before?

What's the realistic operating range for such machines?

>>150893921
Like the other anon said, the Nightmare Auto canons wouldn't be able to penetrate the armor of most modern tanks. Whereas the 120mm gun of most MBT's would cut through nightmares like butter. Mechas will never make sense because the human form is fundamentally inefficient for war.

>>150897445
>the Nightmare Auto canons wouldn't be able to penetrate the armor of most modern tanks.
Are you joking? It'd be easy peasy, especially from above.

>>150897445
good luck nailing a fast moving target with the 120mm lmao

>>150897445
>Human form is fundamentally inefficient for war.
>Humans have been fighting in war using human form in war since Humans existed.
>Its been efficient and effective for war since Humans used it.
Okay, Anon.

>>150897496
Some modern tanks can, not shit american tanks though.
It just have to be very close so he has no time to dodge it.

>>150895455
Man, I forgot F91 had such gorgeous animation.

>>150897541
Are you retarded? The very fact that you have to stick your head which contains your most vulnerable bits out of cover to get to see anything is a major defect for warfare. Humans are far from perfect for warfare but we have to make do with what we've got.

>>150894631
Tank and infantry armor is getting better and better though, armor isn't universally getting phased out, the a10 for example is an extremely well armored plane because it's primary role is ground attack. And the US military is actually thinking of designing a new A10 that's even better.

>>150897674
Last I heard they were gonna replace A10s with F35s

>>150897496
12,7-20mm autocannon would be enough for fast moving target since it usually don't have that much armor.
MBT have a couple of these usually.
>>150897541
Yeah, ground cover in europe is ~1-1.5m.
Anything above it is fucked.
You noticed how MBT are trying well tried to be as close to ground as possible?
This is the reason for that.
Mecha only have a future in form of walking MBTs with similarly low profile or individual exoskeletons that would allow infantry to withstand machinegun\anti-material\high energy shrapnel latter being the #1 reason for combat losses currently.

>>150894671
An IED is going to kill an IFV harder than its going to kill a tank, the reason why IFV's are more popular now is because they're cheaper, require less fuel and are just as good at killing dirt farmers in shitholeistan.

>>150897241
they will when its all they have out in the field since driving around construction trucks isnt as viable during combat

>>150893243

The only advantage a mech would have would be in a dense Urban inviroment. Anywhere else a tank could see it easily see it coming and take it out.

>>150897772
Leave it to the grunts. There's no reason to needlessly stress an expensive war machine.

Is there anything in the world that could even possibly EVEN SCRATCH an abrams? Let alone disable it. I'm talking about a highly mobile, extremely well armed and armoured war machine, equipped with an extremely versatile, 120mm gun capable of firing a multitude of specialised ammunition with thermal and NV optics, pintle mounted & coaxial .308 machine guns for point defense and a REMOTELY OPERATED .50 cal for the commander to desecrate the corpses of his enemies, a multifueled turbine engine that can go up to 75km/hr, IMPENETRABLE DEPLETED URANIUM ARMOR, reactive armor which FUCKING EXPLODES AWAY projectiles, blasting vents, spall liners, and protected against chemical, biological and nuclear threats, making the crew virtually invincible. Seriously, is there even anything that can TOUCH this monster?

>>150895485
No mechas will never replace tanks, we may get robot tanks though, tracks will always be more efficient than legs. Just by the laws of physics they would have less armor and less equipment because more weight would have to be put on two legs instead of two massive tracks. They wouldn't be faster in the slightest either, any engine you could put in a mecha you could put in a tank and the tank would be significantly more efficient because wheels and tracks are just more efficient by design. Not to mention Mechs have an awful profile that would be extremely easy to hit from miles away.

>>150895742
Funny those factory robots aren't shaped in the slightest like humans, I wonder why? Oh right, because humans are fundamentally inefficient.

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>>150897252
>2km

Try 4km.

>>150897388
They program their own mechs.
Watch Gundam Seed, any Gundam really, but it's most obvious in Gundam Seed.

They are not so much pilots as operators.

>>150897689
No the F35 fulfills a different role, it's meant to fly by, drop a payload and fly back, whereas the a10 is designed to stick around and give infantry close air support of a longer period of time.

>>150897924
That's guided weaponry though.
Also US tanks now can do it too.

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>>150897891
every time.

>>150897914
>humans are fundamentally inefficient
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtU9p1VYtcQ

A tank cannot stand up on it's own once it has been turned over. Tanks are a logistical nightmare and the only reason they are still part of modern militaries is because we have too many of them left over from 30 years ago.

>>150897914
>They wouldn't be faster in the slightest either
If they find a way to make artificial muscles - a roach-shaped tanks might be a good form for IRL mecha.
several mildly armored legs, loss of half of them does not disable tank etc.

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>>150897965
No, the main gun on any modern MBT can hit targets at 3-4km. In addition to the ATGMs.

>>150897989
>A tank cannot stand up on it's own once it has been turned over. Tanks are a logistical nightmare and the only reason they are still part of modern militaries is because we have too many of them left over from 30 years ago.

compared to knightmare frames tanks are a godsend

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>>150897772

>>150897490
The trouble is getting above, you have to remember most battles are fought in open country, not in citys with good flanking routes. And the nightmare canon looks like it couldn't be more than 40mm, a 40mm auto canon would tickle any modern MBT.

>>150897989
Nigga where will infantry find cover on offensive?
What will urban assault teams use instead of tanks?
IFV are too vulnerable for that.
>>150898022
>3-4km
I find it hard to believe but okay.

>>150897496
Modern tanks do it all the time actually. They have computers that calculate the flight trajectory of the shell.

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>>150898057
Even back in WW2 the Germans were knocking out tanks at 2-3km multiple times.

>>150898053
>40mm auto
Maybe they've switched to high-pressure pneumatics or EM guns for extra projectile speed and denser materials for ammo.

when the standard armament includes railguns and coilguns, armor tends to be less important compared to not getting hit in the first place.

It's not like Knightmares lack offensive punch. We see them hitting taks with enough punch to lift them several feet into the air.

>>150897380
mecha run on holmium-166m1 nuclear isomer batteries. it has a half-life of 1200 years. they'll never need refueling.

>>150897989
An m1 Abrams weighs 65t when would it ever get turned on its side?

>>150898102
>not getting hit in the first place
Standing 10 meters tall does not help this.

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>>150897814
How about mountainous / canyon terrain?

>>150895906
What show is this one?

>>150897445
Hence the problem. The Geass timeline is all kinds of screwed up, what with their guns relying on springs and shit. I highly doubt their tanks have that special armour and even "normal "guns that we had access to in the Second World War, never mind modern armaments.

>>150898148
most knightmares stand at less than 5 meters tall.

The Gawain, which was freakishly huge compared to regular Knightmares was 7 meters tall.

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>>150898043
If knightmares were real tanks would have been taken out of service.

>>150898057
>Nigga where will infantry find cover on offensive?
Easy question - don't use infantry.
It's 2016. Kill everyone with drones. Move on.

>What will urban assault teams use instead of tanks?
Again. Why are people even a part of the equation?


>>150898144
When it hits a deep enough pothole. Which happens very often.

>>150893243
Titanfall's explanation is pretty good.

As time went on, warfare become more urban so they're meant to serve mainly in city area where you need something that can watch as many angles as possible including rooftops.

But this is mecha so why are you questioning it?

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>>150898152
>giant poncho for mecha

>>150897914
Tanks replaced cavalry. Mechs could replace infantry, but they'll probably be very small, no taller than 4 meters.

>>150898180
>springs
what?

>>150898094
Denser material for ammo also means denser material for armor though, it's a double edged sword. The only thing that can reliable penetrate modern tank armor that's infused with DU are the discarding 120mm sabot tungsten rounds. Now imagine how expensive it would be to put tungsten rounds in an auto canon. it would be logistically unfeasible.

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>>150898102
>auto cannon
>lift tanks several feet into the air.

>>150897427
depends on fuel storage and what kind of engine it has. a leo 2 has 1200 litres of fuel, and a twin-turbo diesel engine, which gives it a range of 550 kilometers.

>>150898152
4-6 legs low-profile chassis would be better.
>>150898182
>5 meters
Still 4-3.5 meters above average ground cover level in Europe.
>>150898185
>no infantry
Not every operation involves raising cities to the ground.
If you want to capture something relatively intact - you need infantry.
Or Trade Federation tier drones.

>>150898053
>you have to remember most battles are fought in open country
In WW2 and wars against desert people? We're talking about a modern war here.

>And the nightmare canon looks like it couldn't be more than 40mm, a 40mm auto canon would tickle any modern MBT.
Of course it would be able to, are you joking?

And if you had actually watched the show instead of just coming here from /k/ to shitpost you'd know there's a lot more to knightmare frames than the one in the OP picture, especially since they're urban oriented.

>>150898185
Thats not flipped over, get another tank out their a tow it, it'll be out in a jiffy.

>>150898185
knightmares are just as easily destroyed by aircraft and while sure they have a higher chance of dodging anti tank handheld or bipod weapons knightmares still have a ridiculously high center of mass and their structure means any damage could cause stabilization issues

even if fuel isn't an issue tanks just arn't this vulnerable and modern mbts have counter measures such as reactive armour

assuming any realistic materials to minimize
the weight of knightmare frames they would be rendered vulnerable to high caliber sniper rifles.

>>150898250
>raising cities to the ground.
I think the word you're looking for is "razing"

>>150897689
trump said no to F35s

>>150898053
The trouble is getting above, you have to remember most battles are fought in open country
where have you been the last 18 years?

>>150898241
See Shinjuku and the one where Leloych first fought Corbelia. It 's not like autocannon are the only weapons Knightmares are equipped with.

we seem them all the time equipped with weapons the size of their torsos, not to mention all the add-ons that Akito gave them.

>>150898254
Please explain to me why wars would suddenly only be fought in city's because its the future? Any army that ascribes to that doctrine would just get out flanked and besieged by an army that doesn't until starvation.

>>150897924
Shows T90 and says 4 KM Pfft
>Additionally the T-90 features the Ainet fuse setting system which allows the tank to detonate 3OF26 HE-FRAG rounds at a specific distance from the tank as determined by the gunners laser rangefinder, improving its performance against helicopters and infantry.[49] Accurate firing range of the HE-Frag-FS 10 km, APFSDS 4 km.[50]
from wiki

>>150894631
>lol get into this giant contraption visible from miles around with paper thin armour, winning should be easy, just don't get hit ;^)
Since when does Zhukov post on 4chan?

>>150898290
>Blowing up dirt farmers in the middle east is called "war" now
Where have I been for the last 18 years...

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>>150898185
> It's 2016. Kill everyone with drones.
Oh, hullo there. And sorry about your drones.

>>150898289

Trump bitched and moaned about the cost of F-35's, that doesn't mean they're canceled

>>150898287
>razing
Yeah, that.
But I agree: remote infantry drones would be nice.
Though it would bring dangers of Skynet with it.
They probably wold have to have some degree of autononomous decision making capabilities in case control signals are jammed.

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>>150898289
Good.
F-35 are overpriced shit.

>>150898200
If we can figure out a better way to store energy than modern battery's then yes, I would have to agree, nothing more than an exo suit that would be used as a sort of point man though.

>>150898395
>implying it wasn't a failed invasion in order to secure the petrodollar
pretty sure the military spending is on track with a war anyway.

>>150898428
>Infantry drones
The EU and Britannia do have those, incidentally. They even automate Knightmares (Which are technically considered infantry).

>>150893243
Because animators can draw them like humans.

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>>150898214
>imagine how expensive it would be to put tungsten rounds in an auto canon. it would be logistically unfeasible.

>>150898473
Can they do shit without control signals?
Cuz I think every first-second world country have some RC toys in the army.

>>150898495
>Can they do shit without control signals?
What?

>>150898495
They're fully autonomous. As in, they can fight in combat by themselves without any external output.

>>150898428
The drone argument is irrelevant.

If you can get drones efficient enough to be used effectively in an urban scenario against hit and run tactics then you can get drones in tanks and aircrafts as well.

At that point manned vehicles will cease to exist entirely.

>>150897541
Human's bipedalism made sense because we were suddenly capable of using hands all the time.
That adventage doesn't matter for war machines.

>>150898338
>Please explain to me why wars would suddenly only be fought in city's because its the future?
In 2005 or something around 20% of the world lived in urban conditions, now it's 50%.
And in the Code Geass universe they unveiled the knightmares during an invasion of Japan.

>Any army that ascribes to that doctrine would just get out flanked and besieged by an army that doesn't until starvation.
And one that just chills out in fields all day would get obliterated by missiles or artillery, in cities you have hard cover.

>>150898477
Wrong. Thats DU. The US doesn't have enough tungsten.

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>It's another tank vs mecha /ak/ stealth thread
The only good /ak/ threads since gup turned into waifushitter central.

>>150898473
Going by what has been shown in Akito the exiled (which I have a hard time considering canon), drones are used but they are still inefficient.

Fuck mechas, we already have dirt cheap RPGs to take them out stashed in every other building of arab world.
Human sized hunter robots when? Don't even have to be humanoid, just metal, murder and AI.

>>150898513
This >>150898548
>>150898548
Well shit, I guess eggheads signing petition against combat use of AI was onto something after all.
>>150898550
>aircrafts
I think it's under development
>tanks
Russian Armata supposedly have the capability of being remotely controlled by second line vehicles?
>At that point manned vehicles will cease to exist entirely
Hooray?
>>150898557
Bipedalism is also very energy-efficient.
It requires less muscles and less energy thus allowing prolonged use.
No land animal have greater range on foot than humans.

>>150897989
>A tank cannot stand up on it's own once it has been turned over
Indeed an everyday occurrence on the modern battlefield, I wonder how could the engineers have missed that critical flaw.

>>150898613
They're still really cool though. The fact that they've already started making autonomous warmachines if a great thought. How close are they to manufacturing AIs?

>>150898629
> just metal, murder and AI.
They're working on it anon.
Nips and boston dynamics.
Russian have some hilariously archaic shit too.

>>150897924
>>150897252

wtf i love tanks now?

>>150898588
Not chill out, move and out flank, these are still the fundamentals of war, and probably will always be, and how are you going to blow shit up without eyes on your target? The people who decide to just sit in citys are going to be the ones who are going to get blown up with missiles and artillery, it's basically just saying "I'm just sitting right here, not going to move anywhere, feel free to blow the shit outa' me until my city is rubble.

>>150898712
>2km
>4km
nigger, please, that's nothing. naval railguns will aim for 300km range

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>>150898652
>At that point manned vehicles will cease to exist entirely
>Hooray?
Yes hooray, the less lives on the line, the better.

>>150897338
This. People are expendable, machines arent. Dual plug mechs should be standard

>>150898730
>Not chill out, move and out flank
How would you flank when you're out in the open?

>and how are you going to blow shit up without eyes on your target?
Using the super sensors that exist in the Code Geass universe, how are you going to blow shit up without eyes on your target? You can't see through buildings.

>The people who decide to just sit in citys are going to be the ones who are going to get blown up with missiles and artillery, it's basically just saying "I'm just sitting right here, not going to move anywhere, feel free to blow the shit outa' me until my city is rubble.

The people that aren't visible are going to get blown up but not the people that everyone can see from miles away?

>>150897689
I was going to make this post with a laughing macro, the F-35 was supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades and billions of dollars later it turned out to be jack-shit.

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Tanks, Aircraft, Mechs, whatever, in the future they will all be replaced by manufactured Ramiels.

give it a few more decades and they might be useful as first wave when fighting against muds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY

>>150898730
Yeah, move out in open ground where they get shredded by Britannian artillery. Mind you, those guns can hit you from over 500km away.

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>>150898740
Naval cannons already have had insane range, because they're big. The largest guns were pushing 30km range, and even the smaller ones used today can still handle 10-15km.

>>150898820
if you do interstellar warfare, just hit them with RKVs. Or if you got some ftl technology through some miraculous insights, just deliver anti matter packages with your ftl drives.

>>150898821
I remember japan making robots better than that years ago.

>>150897814
How about from directly above it?

>tanks
>versus fast tanks with insane maneuverability

>>150897814
>Anywhere else a tank could see it easily see it coming and take it out.
How do you take it out when it moves zig-zag on its roller skates?

>>150898858
but with 300km range you can target inland targets from the sea, as long as terrain does not get in the way. no need for expensive missiles, just hit them with ballistic trajectories.

>>150898763
You can easily encircle a city if the enemy force just decides not to deploy anyone outside of it. In modern war if you don't have access to oil and ammunition, you lose, So if you can besiege a city, and cut off the entire flow of both your going to win extremely quickly. Not to mention, you cant hide vehicles in building, what you're talking about is basically an insurgency, which modern military have no trouble dealing with when they grow some balls.

>>150898259
> needing another tank

just fire off the thrusters on your mech

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>>150898877
alternatively, manned/ smartphone controlled robot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWE9XQ4fK_c

>>150898289
trumps a retard since theyre already being shipped out so he isnt gonna get the money back from the production cost of a finished product. other countries will just buy it

Knightmares aren;t supposed to fight in open ground. They're infanrty, dammit.

>>150898756
Why are the Apaches so close, a line of people like that would light up on IR like a Christmas tree, and the the helis could just engage them from miles out with the canon? I'm so sick of people in the media being so ignorant of anything related to weapons and war, I don't watch war movies anymore because I know it's going to be chock full of stupid shit that will piss me off.

>>150898953
>You can easily encircle a city if the enemy force just decides not to deploy anyone outside of it. In modern war if you don't have access to oil and ammunition, you lose
When the opponent you're encircling is using mechs with near infinite fuel and even energy weapons supplies really aren't much of an issue.

>So if you can besiege a city, and cut off the entire flow of both your going to win extremely quickly.
If you besiege a city and have 0 cover you're going to lose extremely quickly.

>Not to mention, you cant hide vehicles in building
In cities? Why not? We're talking about huge buildings here, you can just go through the entrance.

>what you're talking about is basically an insurgency, which modern military have no trouble dealing with when they grow some balls.
It's not an insurgency at all, it's just using a city as a fort.

>>150893791
They see that planes have a million controls and assume if a pilot can handle all this than a future pilot could do something similar for mechs.

The suit in Mobile Fighter G is the only realistic way someone could control mechs and be extremely agile.

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>>150898740
> firing at objects over the horizon

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>>150898204
Sakuradite based electromagnetic something. Not really good with the sciences, my bad.

>>150893243
You seem to forget that BRITANNIA Still had tanks during the invasion of Japan the Knightmares we sort of shock value kinda like a tiger or the kv 1 during germanys early invasion of the soviet union. The Japs were like WTF Were those and got scared when they left their flanks open to fire and creating a psychological effect that knigtmares are terryfing and hence used Knightmare in place it didnt make tanks obsolute its due to the shock value it had that made it impressive and implemented by the whole world. A Tank with a good gun and good range around 5-6km and 25 mm cannon you knock out a bunch of knightmares and life to tell the tale easily

>>150898944
They did that. Even in the Gulf War, the final deployment of battleships, they did that.

>>150898944
Anon you do realize railguns are basically shoot AP rounds?
They're also not good for ballistic trajectories.
They're literally expected to be great against missiles and planes, maybe other battleships but fight between modern ones today happen on a larger distances.

>>150898939
Fire control system.

>>150898967
Tanks flipping is still very uncommon, and being able to get out of that isn't enough to outweigh the disadvantages.

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>>150898289
Good. The world needs more development in sectors other than military technology to achieve sustainable development.

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*shots you from 5 km*

>>150899153
Good thing he's a climate change denier and anti nuclear then.

>>150899148
ive seen treads get buttfucked by loose enough barbed wire. theyre so outdated

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>>150895455
What the fuck was his problem?

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>>150899153
But military is the most innovative field.
It just happens that American engineers are crippled by greed if not retarded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

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>>150899213
>climate change denier

That's the only thing troubling me about him as a citizen from an Asian country tbph. It will bite my country in the ass in 20 years or so if he does what he says he will do.

>>150899247
>are crippled by greed
Who aren't?

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>mechs in space combat
>their stance as they shoot guns as if theyre fighting on a 2D plane
>not curling up and shooting between your legs so you have a smaller profile and to shield your torso

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>>150899203
>5 km


> shoots at you from 370.4km
>>150899100

>>150899286
His new secretary of state works for Exxon but at least he believes in climate change, hopefully Trump will change his mind.

>>150899286
Hope you enjoy your seafront property

>>150899292
But then they'd have less manoeuvrability.

>>150898939
Laser or beam weapons

>>150899297
It's a kinetic projectile.
AOE is shit.

>>150899286
That's how he'll fuck over china.
Let them kill themselves with pollution.

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>>150898967
>just fire off the thrusters on your mech

Just fire the thrusters on your TANK why do we need a mech if we can just make flying tanks.

>>150899347
>Laser
>Beam
Not same anon, but
Works well in space but shitty IRl.
Fog, sandstorm, humidity, rocky terrain - too much can fuck it up.

>>150899076
>When the opponent you're encircling is using mechs with near infinite fuel and even energy weapons supplies really aren't much of an issue.
Only the new super expensive experimental Nightmares have long battery life and energy weapons. All the rank and file ones used bullets and needed charging often.

>If you besiege a city and have 0 cover you're going to lose extremely quickly.
You don't need cover, you can just set your artillery up out of range of the city and bombard it for as long as you want, blockade all entrances with your forces as far out as you need to be out of range. Sure the mechs may not need fuel, but city's with such high populations run out of food extremely fast.

>In cities? Why not? We're talking about huge buildings here, you can just go through the entrance.
If your mechs are cowering in buildings they aren't doing shit.

>what you're talking about is basically an insurgency, which modern military have no trouble dealing with when they grow some balls.
And forts have never worked without a concrete battle line, they're meant to strengthen a front, something you could use to launch offensives off of, or pin a defense around, not something you just plonk down and sit in until you starve.

>>150899338
Design the thrusters to work in that position

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>>150899316
Sort of hilarious that we will have to rely on an Exxon CEO of all people to focus on climate change.

>>150899318
Ehh, if shit water hits my property I'll probably immigrate to somewhere else. Hopefully.

>>150899356
Or he could support democracy movements in China. You know, the method that will only fuck over China and her neighbours to some extent without so much collateral.

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>>150899350
> passes through you like nothing on the way to its real target

>>150897338

>can take their place

This is not how a tank crew works. Everyone has their job. If they are not doing their job from their position someone else cannot do it from theirs. If your gunner is down you cant have your driver man the guns from the driver seat. If your driver is down you cant have your gunner drive the tank from the gunners seat. If your commander is down nobody knows what the fuck is going on and can hardly tell the situation. The commander cant command from any seat other than his own.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/m1-tank5.htm

If one guy bites it your tank is out of commission. End of story.

>>150899350
At those speeds the pieces of whatever you hit will do all the damage you need.

>>150899492
They cross train

>>150899347
lasers power drops off significantly over range, even when not accounting for atmospheric conditions. The only reason it's used to tackle ICBMs is they're effectively unarmored sticks of dynamite, with very thin walls. even then, the russians covered them in tin foil and set it all back to square 1.

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>>150899203
Try 20km

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This kills mecha

>>150899415
>Only the new super expensive experimental Nightmares have long battery life and energy weapons. All the rank and file ones used bullets and needed charging often.
So? Even if they needed recharging they still use super reactors that don't need fuel.

>You don't need cover, you can just set your artillery up out of range of the city and bombard it for as long as you want, blockade all entrances with your forces as far out as you need to be out of range.
Your artillery would get blown out because it's in the open though, the artillery in the city has the advantage of hard cover.

>If your mechs are cowering in buildings they aren't doing shit.
If your troops are cowering in a field they aren't doing shit.

>And forts have never worked without a concrete battle line, they're meant to strengthen a front, something you could use to launch offensives off of, or pin a defense around, not something you just plonk down and sit in until you starve.
Why wouldn't it work when you're spread out so much to get out of artillery range? The city could just counter attack and demolish you.

>>150899365
because tanks cant land for shit without murdering their crew

> What happened to your squad, son?

> " he got stuck in the mud then fired off the thrusters"
> " Killed the whole crew and landed on another tank in the distance"
> "killed them too"

The gekkos in Metal Gear are the only logical successor to tanks

>>150899492
No this is simply untrue, in ww2 crew members would die all the time and other crew members would take over. Sure the tank is going to be far less efficient, but still operable. Modern loaders in tanks are often trained in both driving and gunning because the loader is by far the least essential member.

>>150899522
>>150899367
Plasma cannons

>>150899449
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/AMBAC

>>150899515

That doesnt solve the fact that you need x sets of hands to operate a vehicle. IT doesnt matter how good you train for all the roles it matters that you have enough hands to do the job. They mostly cross train for if the situation occurs where a tanker bites it they can field train someone to replace him in an emergency situation. You cant run a tank with missing crew effectively.

>>150899578
just having one stand on a normal freeway would be enough to break the concrete and ruin literally everything.

>>150899613
>because tanks cant land for shit without murdering their crew
Land using the thrusters, or better yet use them to not get stuck in the mud in the first place.

>>150899626
The K2 can be manned by one person or something if it needs to. Has computers take over the rest. Can even aim and fire based on data from other tanks.

>>150893243
>How did they make main battle tanks obsoleted anyway? I don't see it.
They didn't.

But the Calvary commanders replaced horses with Knightmares.

In real life, machine guns were available for many years before WW1 started. But warfare was still considered "honourable" and it was considered rude to kill mounted troops with peasants armed with machine-guns. So it wasn't until WW1 actually started that commanders realised that Calvary aren't going to cut it.

In-universe there was attempts to develop supersonic fighter jets, but the CG universe commanders rejected them for not able to fit a Knightmare frame.

>>150899495
this

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOKf5r_JMAo

>>150899592
How is artillery going to shoot at anything when it's in cover? They cant shoot through buildings. And again how are they going to spot the enemy artillery? Modern heavy artillery can hit targets from over 40kms away, far out of the range of any of the optics shown in Code Geass. And why would infantry and tanks be cowering in a field when they're out of range of the city? You could just blockade highways into the city from extremely far away and starve them out. And you have to leave the city to counter attack, if you're so attached to the city then you also have to start defending supply routs, and then your basically just fighting a regular war with regular battle lines.

Just for reference this is a real thing that exists in not fiction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDC4217HHSM

Funnel maybe?

>>150899646
On the offchance that you're not just spouting things you saw in Xcom, no. Plasma cannons could be extremely destructive at close range, but at almost any distance at all it cools of and you may as well have an airhorn.

>>150898777

The fucking thing cannot even beat a F-16C on a dogfight.

Lockheed sold it as a cheaper F-22 and now its a more expensive version of the F-22 with worst performance that a F-16.

Mechs can fly.
Tanks can't.
Checkmate, tanksfags.

>>150899885
>How is artillery going to shoot at anything when it's in cover? They cant shoot through buildings.
Not every building is a sky scraper.

>And again how are they going to spot the enemy artillery?
Using the super sensors in mechs by default.

>Modern heavy artillery can hit targets from over 40kms away, far out of the range of any of the optics shown in Code Geass.
We don't know the specifications of the super sensors.

>And why would infantry and tanks be cowering in a field when they're out of range of the city? You could just blockade highways into the city from extremely far away and starve them out.
If you're so far away from the city then your encirclement will be broken extremely easily with the super fast mechs.


This conversation is going nowhere, let's just concede that tanks are super gay and mechs are the coolest.

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>>150900075
mechs can swim

>>150899946
That's just a ball of thrusters with a gyroscope.

>>150900105
Ill only concede that you're super gay for mechas.

>>150900075
Tanks are real
Mechs aren't

>>150900161
Only faggots wouldn't be super gay for mechas.

>>150900155
That video is from 2008 imagine what it could be now.

>>150900183
Then I'm the biggest fag of them all.

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>>150899539
That's an air to ground missile though. Try well in excess of 100km you little shit.

>>150900054
I am listing things Ive seen in XCOM.

>>150900246
Just wait until some madman makes a mecha anime about mechs that transform into tanks.

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>>150893243
assuming replacing treads with legs has some kind of advantage, I still find making giant guns for giant hands pretty fucking retarded.
hundreds of moving parts and points of failure for what? the possible use of giant swords?

>>150900298
Utility, hands let you operate doors, they let you change weapons easily, they let you build.

>>150899705
You can still run a tank with two people. You cant run a mech with no people.

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>>150900247
Does anyone else get a semi looking at mach diamonds?

What cruel god would make them so inefficient?

>>150900287
Didn't they kinda do that in Euraka 7? Then again, those mechs were alien fossils in disguise so I don't know if they count.

We had this thread and mechfags got fucking destroyed

Tanks>>mechs because laws of physics

>>150900247
Yeah that's the point, a Maverick would seriously fuck a mech up.

>>150900395
There's on in Unicorn too but it doesn't get much screentime.

>>150900403
We don't know what technology they have in mecha universes that make it possible, we shouldn't just assume they go against the laws of physics because we don't have the tech.

>>150899213
>anti-nuclear
proofs?

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>>150900298
>the possible use of giant swords?
I'd rather have giant axes.
Mecha melee is my guilty pleasure.

>>150893243
>but it seems to be implied that the energy source that powers knightmares is so good that they may as well make a massively inefficient design, with minor mobility benefits.

huh, this can actually start making sense if you also assume infinite industrial capability, bringing the bottle neck back to trained recruits.
if mechs just jacked into people's brains Pacific Rim style they could reduce training costs in the same way guns reduced the time it took to put competent soldiers on the front line.

>>150900298
Why even have arms at all then. Starsiege type armless mechs and Starsiege Tribes jetpack infantry would probably be ideal.

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>>150898450
>F-35
>Shit

They are the multirole planes you can get. What,youre going to use A-10,Hornets,Rafael or Gripens to fuck ground targets up?

You know those guys are fucked against modern AA?

If we had whatever magic energy source mechs have that make them not require fuel, why would we even have war?

>>150900598
race war

>>150900511
Same tech can still be applied to tanks. Older points still stand as tanks are much more efficient design ergonomically,economically and structurally.

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>>150900592
>he fell for the stealth meme

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>>150900536

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>>150900592
Rafale is just fine.

>>150900670
Stealth isn't a meme though, most AA weapons still use radar.

>>150900652
>Same tech can still be applied to tanks.
Why would tanks benefit from less G forces and reduced pressure applied to the ground?

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>>150900704
yeah,canards are cute

>>150900670
Its not a meme,its only way to survive against good gear really.

>>150900631
Fucking earthnoids
Day of the colony drop when

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>>150900298
>hundreds of moving parts and points of failure for what?

almost every military vehicle EVER

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>>150900749
>reduced pressure applied to the ground?
>why would tanks benefit from this
Anon please,are you really asking here? Tanks can get stuck in mud and fuck up certain roads.

Of course it depends how the pressure is reduced. You could make the surface are larger but I dont think thats the point

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Miniaturization and speed.

Larger mecha like Mechawarrior and Gundam which are 15-20 meters tall make them more cumbersome and larger targets.Although in Gundam, tanks lose the advantage of tracking and targeting systems due to Minovsky jamming, so they have to aim and fire manually which is why you see tanks get constantly getting shit on.


So for mecha to realistically take the advantage over tanks, it would have be through maneuverability and and being a smaller target.


Looks like Mecha vs tanks will boil down to dex vs str.

>>150900792
Yeah but we're talking about a dozen orders of magnitude more points of failure for the ability to do not really anything of use.

>>150900858
dumb starposter

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>>150900792
I loved in the details in this, I heard a sequel was planed.

>>150900806
>Anon please,are you really asking here? Tanks can get stuck in mud and fuck up certain roads.
Yeah but if they had the little shoes mechs had they wouldn't have tracks anymore.

>>150900598
very few wars between nations happen because of a lack of resources. wars are started almost always because of politics. the crusades, colonization, etc.

democracies are much more less likely to go to war because you can just trade for resources, spending them on weapons is counter productive.

>>150900871
Smaller surface area actually makes that worse.
The stucking and fucking up roads I mean

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>>150900858
To be superior to a tank is something

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>>150900896
>spending them on weapons is counter productive
Except to the corp who makes them

>>150900705
>>150900753
most modern radar systems have the ability to negate the effects of stealth design by using both a horizontal and a vertical scan

but it does increase the chances of survival slightly. However, we've yet to see if stealth is cost effective in a war between two modern nations, considering the increased production cost of the planes.

as with all things, you cannot just add more stuff and hope something becomes better. There's a golden lining, and sometimes a useful function needs to be removed to make room for a slightly more useful, or cheaper, feature.

I think stealth is a dead end. The real way to get a tactical advantage lies in better information systems and improved cooperation between different weapon systems.

>>150900839
Wait jamming? When was this introduced? And why does it not work on the mechs?

>>150899365
>What is Heavy Object

>>150900896
Democracy has nothing to do with trade, they're less likely to go to war because they'll have to convince everyone that they were in the right and didn't just waste billions because they can't do diplomacy for shit in 4-5 years.

>>150900959
>When was this introduced?
0079

>And why does it not work on the mechs?
It does, that's why they only notice things when they can see them and why they have to have direct contact to communicate when in battle.

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>>150900936
>Railgun
>3 rails

ok

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>>150900869
yeah, wasnt guaranteed initially but the kids loved it. Studio gave it a wait n see attitude and told the workers not to wonder too far. FIRST though its getting a movie to mash it all together. a reverse Unicorn

>>150901021
I really need to rewatch gundam. That is an extremely contrived reason though. How do computer guided missiles work then?

>>150900865
You wish you had stars nerd

>>150900869
Pretty sure the after credits scene in the movie version set up for the finale.

It'd be pretty strange to have them end in December 0079 with a glorious victory for Zeonic cripples

>>150900936
>superior to a tank
in what way?
All those joints are weak points for artillery
The armor can't be sloped or anything. It'd require hundreds of times as much fuel to walk on land (bipedal movement isn't efficient), and flying would be incredibly expensive considering the fact that the design is completely unaerodynamic, and designed to accelerate in space, which means no making use of angle of attack in atmosphere.

Honestly the list of reasons why mecha's are untenable just goes on and on

>>150900705

So why was the F-117 retired?

Because if your means of defense is stealth the moment something beats it, its completely useless, the F-117 was retired because newer tracking systems could detect them.

This is also why the F-35 is a pile of shit, its stealth doesnt work because to carry any actual payload it needs external points that makes it lose its "stealth".

This why stealth is a meme and why the Russians only experimented with it.

>>150893243
magic

>>150901070
move's already made and subbed.

A much better watch altogether than as ovas

>>150900980
heavy object is the most retarded shit I've ever seen.
>armor so thick it's impervious to damage. unless the weapon is mounted on a vehicle with a similar amount of armor.

>>150901100
The best undetectable stealth planes are tested only in Area 51

>>150900946
>There's a golden lining, and sometimes a useful function needs to be removed to make room for a slightly more useful, or cheaper, feature.

I think the fatal flaw with that kinda thing is the following
>Pilot and especially those who know their shit are few and precious
>Training takes time and costs money.
>Being send on a one way mission in a cheap metal coffin isnt good for morale.

But the most important one in my opinion is
>Chinese missiles cost fraction comparedf to your plane and take less time to make/doesnt have a pilot.

F-35 plane costs are potatoes anyways. If US were to fight a peer opponent they could shit our stealth planes rather fast after production lines are set. That would bring down the costs immensely.

Better information systems and improved cooperation is all nice but doesnt help much if you cant deliver the payload consistently.

>>150901079
I'm not sure but I think radar and radio communications don't work so it's just down to heatseeking and the like for missile navigation, they don't really go too in-depth.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Gundam_Wiki:Technology#Minovsky_Physics

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>democracies are much more less likely to go to war

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>>150901100
Why are the Russians trying to make their own stealth f22 knock off?

It would never happen. A large mecha is too big for mordern combat. It'd just be exo-skeleton suits. Why use a mecha when a jet is 10x faster and would rule the sky? When a tank has better armor and lower profile not to mention smaller chance of failure?

A guy with mother fucking metal wire could decapitate/trip a mecha who didn't watch where he was walking. A wire.

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>>150900959
>>150901079
Basically every sort of radar, and tracking system outside of direct links (wire guided) are jammed, so everything is done through visual contact and aiming.

As for it being contrived, it's a central pillar of how combat is done in Gundam. Because of how the reactors for mobile suits and space ships work.

>The main use of the Minovsky particle was in combat and communication. When the Minovsky particle is spread in large numbers in the open air or in open space, the particles disrupt low-frequency electromagnetic radiation, such as microwaves and radio waves. The Minovsky particle also interferes with the operations of electronic circuitry and destroys unprotected circuits due to the particles' high electrical charge which act like a continuous electromagnetic pulse on metal objects. Because of the way Minovsky particles react with other types of radiation, radar systems and long-range wireless communication systems become useless, infra-red signals are defracted and their accuracy decreases, and visible light is fogged. This became known as the "Minovsky Effect".

Warfare gets pulled back to where you need to learn to pull the target and aim through a scope.

>>150900946
The radar bouncing currently only works in perfect conditions. And for the projectile to hit the target the system has to be constantly sending flight data to the missile, which makes it extremely vulnerable to anti-radar missiles.

>>150901272
So just like WWII?

>>150899478
>democracy movements in China
Nobody in China wants it. Not the dirt farmers, not the old fucks, not the college kids, not the businessmen. It wouldn't work because there's just no desire for it.

>>150901254
Because the F-22 is actually good, unlike the F-35

>>150901122
missed the release by two weeks. Thanks for that

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>>150901350
You got it chief.

>>150901254

The Sukhoi PAK FA only come after joint development with India, also before it that was the MiG 1.44 that was in response to the ATF project.

Besides the PAK FA have more in line with the Su-27 family that the F-22.

>>150901100
>So why was the F-117 retired?
Because F-35 is better and US realized you dont need stealth to bomb poor farmers ;^)

>actual payload it needs external points that makes it lose its "stealth".
Theres nothing indicating this. Just make stealthier missiles

>>150901351
It's simple. We make them want it.

Joking aside, my cousin deals with Chinese businessmen and they frequently express their frustrations over the lack of democracy so it must have some traction.

>>150901414
India builds jets? Since when? The Pakis are fucked if its true.

Mechs work because their universes are way different to ours. Why can't you understand this?

>>150901624
Hong Kong wants it

>>150901624
Jokes aside I've lived here for the past 20 years, it's got shit all for traction besides a few hippies and businessmen frustrated with not being able to bribe even more efficiently.
Believe me, the vast, vast majority don't need or want it.

>>150900896
With trade comes trade sanctions which are basically an act of war that needs to be backed with weapons

>>150893243
>Intuitive to use as it essentially is scaled up infantry
>Fewer crew members means more can be fielded at once
>Much more mobile than MBTs, not constrained to flat or nearly flat surfaces. Also vertical mobility, perfect for urban or uneven environments
>Easily adaptable loadouts without the need for major maintenance, as weapons are primarily handheld.
>Humanoid appearance allows it to take cover or assume firing positions MBTs wouldn't be able to accomplish

Lots more. Also, rule of cool.

>>150901624

India usually buys them, they are forking cash for the PAK as Russia didnt seem interested in footing the bill, they will get their own version that just with different electronics since India uses western weapons.

>>150901679
yeah but just saying that is no fun

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>>150901624
india builds all kinds of retarded stuff

>>150900896
>very few wars between nations happen because of a lack of resources
International politics is simply national interests and the clash thereof.

>>150901679
>Mechs work because their universes are way different to ours.
There is no indication if this though. Math and gravity exist

>>150901776
Not him but math is special among the sciences because it depends more or less on nothing and has no direct tie to the 'real world'. It's, along with philosophy, one of the only subjects you can study 'in a vacuum' if that makes sense.

>>150901831
I wouldn't say that. Math was created as a tool to interpret and analyze our surroundings, it's used to model the real world and simulate things that we have observed.

Does melee mech combat actually make any sense, either on earth or in space?

>>150901929
Yes, as long as there's some factor that prevents extreme long range combat like minovsky particles.

>>150901831
Math is just applied philosophy

>>150901831
But math has a tie to the "real world"
Physics is essentially math and plenty of great people on that field were professional mathematicians.

>>150901929
yes

>>150901910
Correct but you'll realize that it explains nothing in and of itself and that it's a self-contained subject. All of math needs to be explained independently from the 'real world' and the only things it follows are its own axioms, which are technically arbitrary and more or less definitions.

>literally 8 CG threads up

Are we being raided? Can you fags just stop?

>>150901771
That's very British.

>>150901959
What? even relatively close range guns are still better than melee.

>>150901970
Pure math isn't physics, that's the thing. Physics spurred math development but that's because physics seeks to use math to explain the world.
I mean, 'gravity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance', that's physics. Math is just k/x^2, no context.

>>150902013
Combination of HYPE for R3, and this season for anime being completely worthless.

>>150902013
>Only 8 CG threads up

This is nothing compared to when R2 was airring.

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>this discussion again
Hello /m/

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>>150901773
>International politics is simply national interests

>globalist
>caring about national interest
Pick one.

>>150902043
When you have a heavy mech in some situations it would be better to just punch a guy than shoot them. Not most situations, just some.

>>150902013
If you look closely, it's barely about CG.
Hell, I even dropped the show years ago.
I'm here for the Mech vs tank discussion.

>>150902118
It is in the interests of some nation(al leader's vision of their nation) to promote globalism.

>>150898756
So what is this shit, Gate?

>>150902118
>globalist
>caring about national interest
Il pick both.

>bully smaller nations
>buy cheaper goods
Seems good to me

>>150899059
Modern war is a joke anyway, when was the last not horribly asymmetric war?

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>>150902180
something something demon vs vampire

>>150901012
yeah, I mixed the thoughts up to fit it into one sentence. it's much harder to convince a populous war is a good idea when it doesn't make any economic sense.
trade is a very good deterrent of war for it's own reasons.

>>150901745
with MAD I doubt economic warfare will bleed into actual warfare, but that's assuming world leaders are all rational, so that depressing in light of recent events.

>>150901773
I wish it was that simple. with the interests of increasingly independent corporations, billionaires and ideals history books looking back at the current era are going to be a clusterfuck.

>>150902118
>globalists don't care about national interests
They do though.

>>150902118
Globalism is only bad if you're a working class pleb. For rich elites and poor third worlders it's pretty great.

>>150902245
Are we counting civil wars? Because the Syrian war has gone all over the place

>>150900598
Boarder dispute, while you might have the magical fuel you don't have the magical food or magical fertile soil.

>>150902270
>I wish it were that simple
It literally is. Idealism and billionaire lobbying is part of national interests, just one most people could care less about. The nation is not the same as the citizenry.