How do you differentiate between "intellectual" anime

>>148429391
When I like it it's intelectual

>>148429533
Pretty much this seems to be the way pretentious is used on /a/. Anything that has more intellectual ambition than your average highschool SoL that you don't like is pretentious.

>>148429391
If I have fun.

>intellectual anime

You realize all anime is aimed at 16-50 year old Japanese manchildren to sell toys and various other products, right? There isn't such thing as intellectual anime. Every anime is shallow entertainment with one-note characters and simplistic, repetitive plots/environments. That's the reason why people enjoy it in the first place, and that's all it will ever be.

>>148429623
None of the stuff that you say makes anime pretentious necessarily does although a lot of it may be present in pretentious anime. Pretentiousness is about trying to create an impression of greater depth than there actually is.

>>148429715
>all anime is aimed at 16-50 year old Japanese manchildren
You should watch more anime or narrow your definition of "all anime" to late night otaku anime. There are tons of shows that don't target those people.

>>148429391
Kinda. I think something like Madoka Rebellion fits more in the pretentious side while something like LOTHH fits in with the "intellectual" side.

>>148429906
>space opera genre trash
>intellectual

The poverty of anime.

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>>148429715
Stop watching moe garbage

>>148429391
If I wanted something intellectual I'd read a book. All anime is shallow garbage, only worth it for the visuals.

i find an anime to be pretentious if it tries too hard to convey/portray a particular theme or metaphor with excessive imagery or explanation

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>>148430029

>>148430125
Unironically this

>>148430125
>>148430578
This opinion tells me that you don't actually read many books, either.

>>148429391

I just watch it and see if there's interesting ideas in the story or if there's just intellectual signals without any interesting ideas in the actual story; signals like art style or piano music, etc.

>>148429391
>intellectual anime
Fuck I'm trying really hard to contain my laughter. Thanks OP.

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>>148429952
OP here, I've watched some of LOTHH and although I might call some fans of the series pretentious, the series itself does have intellectual moments. Specifically the political aspects are well done, I haven't watched enough of it to judge beyond that though.

It does seem to be at least 2/3rds about the space opera aspects than anything intellectual from an outsiders perspective though.

>>148429623
I think monogatari is a good example of a pretentious anime (or at least one that can be pretentious at times, it has varying quality throughout all seasons), there's tons of imagery that is completely random and simply there to distract from the fact that nothing is happening aside from talking, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself but it comes off as trying to create more depth than actually exists.

>>148430597
>This opinion tells me that you don't actually read many books, either.
this

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>>148430634
So only story can be intellectual? There's nothing intellectual about art or music styles?

>>148430643
see>>148430741

Monogatari seems clearly pretentious to me, however that doesn't mean that the art aspects aren't intellectual as well. I think something can be pretentious AND intellectual at the same time.

>>148429391
By watching it.

>>148430597
>>148430678
Why reply? It's just the usual troll. Anime is not any dumber that the quantity of absolutely shit books we can get every year. If anything, there's a significantly bigger amount of shit books than there's of anime. People will just go ahead and cite obscure authors they just haven't read "but hey, it looks hipster and gives me some credibility" and will just shut you down.
If anything, anime is generally of better quality than most of the shit that is being discussed on /tv/, for example.

>>148431022
no it isnt. i dont even know how you could think it is, even if you only knew the most superficial facts.

its obvious if you are serious about storytelling you would go to the biggest mouthpiece and the biggest platform and the biggest audience which is hollywood or the nyt bestseller list. you wouldnt toil away in pulpy genre fiction cartoons.
the people who make a career in anime do it out of a passion for anime and out of being an eccentric, and not because they want to explore the human condition seriously as a creator.

theres probably not an anime ever made that is even as good as Mad Men and Mad Men is not even particularly good when put against the best of film or literature.

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>>148429391
>intellectual anime

>>148429391
You don't

>>148429833
>There are tons of shows that don't target those people.

Because the rest aimed at people 16 and below. I'll refute any specifics if you feel like trying.

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>blatant intellectual commentary
pretentious
>subtle intellectual imagery
intelectual

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>>148430597
>he reads genre fiction

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Is Penguindrum pretentious?

>>148431199
>its obvious if you are serious about storytelling you would go to the biggest mouthpiece and the biggest platform and the biggest audience which is hollywood or the nyt bestseller list.
How the fuck is that all related to storytelling, you fuckwit? Nothing about all of this has anything to do with storytelling, more about how to make easy money. Which isn't why actual artists do things.

>do it out of a passion for anime
Damn right but it takes inhuman efforts to work so much for such a little amount of money compared to your Hollywood guys who make easy 10000 times more money for shitting out capeshit every year several times of the year. One provides a much more significant standard of living and is therefore easier to do, therefore asks for less passion and interest. Anime is also superior to movie when it comes to visual creativity.

Now, normalfags like you need to get the fuck out of /a/.

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>>148430643
>>148430778

Monogatari isn't pretentious at all because it doesn't pretend towards high intellectual content that it doesn't have, which is what pretentiousness is. In fact most of what gets misinterpreted as attempts as "symbolism" or other pretention indicators in that show are actually just completely on-the-nose, cartoonish style choices.

For instance, Kanbaru's room. It's full of her ero books, right? I've never read the LN, but I imagine there's a line in there about her room that just says "It was full of BL books" or something like that. What you see in the anime is a comical exaggeration of that; they don't just put lots of BL books on shelves and left on the floor in the room like what would be a realistic conception of her room based on the description, they make them the only feature of the room and make them into a sea where the characters can literally dive into the books and splash around because there are so many; so many that all look exactly the same, playing up that cartoonish quality. It's a surrealistic turn to the set of those conversations, but it's clearly not an attempt to look smart; it's obviously the animators being silly.

Or these screenies; what do they mean?! Nothing, other than that the animators realized the source material tends to create a slideshow-esque visual experience, so there's no issue just putting in placeholders and maybe filling them in with animation for the BD.

The show doesn't try to hide that nothing is happening but dialogue about bullshit most of the time, it revels in that and draws your attention to it. But because how they do that is pretty flippant and overexaggerated at times, you might read it as intellectual posturing when it isn't.

>"intellectual" anime
Anime I get
>just pretentious
Anime I don't get

But in all seriousness, there's very little pretentiousness in anime in general. I've never had to worry about it. If a series feels 2deep4me, I acknowledge that maybe it's gone over my head without accusing it of pretentiousness.

>>148431199
Anime is far more impressive when it does turn out to intellectual as well, they have terrible budgets and only one chance because they don't have the time or money to revise like authors or film directors would.

>>148430741

Intellectual, no. Worthy of admiration in terms of craft, yes.

You can't put the props ahead of the script; ultimately, no matter how good they are, animation and music and seiyuu and other elements are there to help tell the story, not the other way around.

>>148432271
I didn't understand so it must be intellectual

>>148432363
monogatari is pretentious, and you are pretentious for thinking that its playful presentation is deeper than it actually is

>>148431199
>Mad Men is not even particularly good

You, I hate you.

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>>148432363
Hmm, ok yes. But who is best girl?

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>>148432456
James Joyce would like a word with you. In his ideal of writing, plot is completely secondary, and almost irrelevant, compared to the style it's portrayed with.

Mind you, I thought his books are unreadable as fuck because of this (just found pic related, not sure if true), but I enjoyed them intellectually a lot. Really fun to read the weirdness of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (I haven't read Ulysses).

You can think of it as putting the "props" ahead of the script, but even if that's silly to me it's still just as valid intellectually.

>>148429391
You need to be an intellectual to be able to recognize one.

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>>148433069
Not him but here's best girl.

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>>148429391
>Trying to find a difference between the exact same things.
See, the problem here is that you don't realize that it's really just a never-ending loop. It starts out intellectual, if you want to call anything in this medium that, by doing things not commonly seen or something unheard of. This can be done in the way the narrative is set up or through animation techniques and stuff like that. However, after a good 8 or 9 years of praise, it delves into pretentious territory because nobody shuts the fuck up about it long after it stopped being relevant, and those same people hold it to such a high standard of creativity that nothing can ever be as good or better than it. There is no difference between "intellectual anime" and "pretentious anime". They are one and the same.

>>148434238
>if you want to call anything in this medium that
no less than any other medium. Just because Hollywood keeps making terrible superhero spinoffs doesn't mean art films aren't art. Similarly just because Anime has mainly moe SoL and battle harems don't mean intellectual anime can't exist.

>>148429391
Frankly, in modern (english speaking) culture, intellectual and pretentious are treated as one and the same. You can label anything that goes beyond fanservice, battles, and moe as pretentious. On the flip side, anything you can't label as pretentious, you can paint as dumb and shallow.

>>148432363
I'm not sure I'd agree monogatari is "actually just completely on-the-nose, cartoonish style choices", but it isn't particularly pretentious. It doesn't have to be ironic to be a style choice, it's just a slightly surreal style choice by a director who loves odd architecture. For monogatari, the content is predetermined through the (popular) books, so the question is how best to depict something that's basically all dialogue in an interesting visual format. For what it's worth, I think monogatari does a brilliant job with it.

>>148429391
>"intellectual" anime

intellectual anime is as real as you're waifu

>>148430643

This is just the style of the Shaft director. You can just watch some other Shaft shows, he does the same there.

Even Anno used some of these techniques to fight budget issues.

If people call it intellectual it's not intellectual.

>>148431199
No tv show is as ambitious as eva or lain, let alone as good as well executed as eva.
Mad men is boring trash. At least talk about Twin Peaks or something barely interesting.

>>148429533
First answer best answer
If you already enjoy the show, then naturally all the meaning behind it becomes interesting.
If a show can't already hold your attention, then all the messages just seem preachy and annoying.

>>148431199
>Hollywood
>A good place for serious storytelling

Haha oh wow and in one post you outed yourself as a pretentious teenager.

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>>148431199

>>148429391
You'd have to be an intellectual to know that.

I have watched a few anime and the only one show that impressed me with its depth, philosophy and excellent plot was the ghost in he shell stand alone complex series. Is there anything else around that does it so well?

>>148438326
Techno something was good. Yeah sorry I don't quite remember the name but it was about a crumbling city and a dude who lost his arm and leg.

>>148433247
Joyce is pretentious garbage. Though he has literary talent, he spends hundreds of pages shitting on everything that made Western art and society great because it makes him feel inadequate as a man.

>>148438413
texhnolyze
same team who did SEL

>>148429391
It's a form of pretentiousness to be concerned with whether an anime is sufficiently intellectual. Just watch and have fun.

>>148429391
There is no "intellectual" anime. Intellectualism is reserved within culture to the written word. The only academic value anime has is as a cultural phenomenon. Evangelion, for example, has absolutely no intellectual value based on the merits of its ``ideas``, but it made waves in Japan.

>>148429391

There really is no such thing as an "intellectual" anime that I'm aware of, that's how

>>148430741
good taste

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The only actually pretentious anime is GITS 2

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>>148429391
OP, it's actually very easy; pretentious anime come from studio SHAFT. most other "intellectual" shows are legitimately intellectual

>>148429391
>Intellectual anime
Re:Zero, SAO, Attack on Titan
>Pretentious anime
everything else

>>148433069
You posted her already.

>>148441429
I mean the series not the movies, different kettle of fish altogether.

>>148441429
It's good tho