What is 'character development'? People talk about

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Read/watch a Nisio series, he loves "character development".

>Character development isn't just a character developing, but also seeing the character act in different situations. It's about seeing all sides of the character, their good and bad, and showing what they're like in the dark

>>144462019
you mean the 'I cut my hair after a significant incident' thing?

Did you never complete middle school?

>>144462253
I just don't understand how it works. I watched Utena a while ago, and people praise it for the 'multidimensional characters' whenever it's brought up but I didn't see any of them as interesting

>>144462079
Doesn't every series show characters responding to different situations though? Why are some series praised for character development specifically then?

I think you might be a bit autistic OP.

I'm not even joking.

>>144462331
What characters do you find interesting?

>>144461923
>What is 'character development'?

well, it's the change of characterization of a non-static well defined character over the course of a series.

Imagine, character x is introduced as a drunken gambler who beats his wife. hiw wife leaves him and this changes his world, he becomes depressed, homeless, then turns his life around, gets a job, stops drinking and gambling and hitting women. eventually he makes up with his wife and lives happily ever after

THATs character development. We had a character behave in one way and over the course of a plot CHANGE to behave in another way.

Character development =/= well defined character. A character who has been focused on by a story and who we all learn about is not character development. Nor is it character development if a character describes himself as antisocial and "energy conserving" and he acts genki and friendly in pretty much every interaction.

Character development demands someone have a displayed and functioning character, which then evolves due to circumstance, and revelation and soul searching. you get some moderate character development in 'monogatari over the course of the series with a number of characters; furthermore a character who is a crying tryhard with no power suddenly gaining power and becoming a hero isn't really character development either. his core character never really changed, just the results did. much like the aforementioned drunk gambler, had he won his wife back and lived a happy life drinking, gambling and beating her, it wouldn't constitute character development.

In general Japanese media (anime in particular) really sucks at character development. It's much more prevalent in western culture.

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>>144462623
>had he won his wife back and lived a happy life drinking, gambling and beating her
It would make for good tragedy. Can't change your inner character, doomed to repeat the same mistakes for eternity.

>>144462331
>I just don't understand how it works. I watched Utena a while ago, and people praise it for the 'multidimensional characters' whenever it's brought up but I didn't see any of them as interesting
multidimensional characters =/= character development

multidimensional characters just means the characters are less "tropes" and more resemble flesh and blood complex people with complex emotions, desires and goals.

>>144462608
Mitsuhashi from KKOW, or the whole main cast from Rookies.

a more well-known example than those would be Kaiji, I guess.

just search on tvtropes

A simple way to put it would be: the character behaves differently at different points in the story, in a way that's explicable by experiences they had during the period in between

The strength of the character development depends on the strength of that relationship

>>144462623
Would Thorfinn from Vinland Saga count?
He goes from a warrior with bloodlust to a pacifist after being forced to work as a slave.

Something like that seems very blatant though, whereas I thought development was really subtle.

>>144462623
>In general Japanese media (anime in particular) really sucks at character development. It's much more prevalent in western culture.

thats because the concept of "salvation" is a very Judeo-Christian theme which is prevalent throughout ALL forms of western media. Its so preveolent in western media it's almost strange if someone doesn't "learn from their mistakes" and "change for the better" by the time the credits roll.

Japan lacks centuries of this christian value system, so japanese stories tend to focus on steadfast hearts in the face of adversary over "learning a lesson and turning over a new leaf" Remember this is a culture which usually faces character flaws with suicide.

>>144462331
Utena is not a good example for this, because a lot of its character development is nonsensical. The character development of Utena and brown chick are basically impossible to untangle, but the development of some of the supporting cast is a lot more straightforward.

On the most basic level character development is when a character is somehow different in terms of what the feel or how they respond to things by the end of a story from how they were at the beginning. This is what's called an arc. (Character development is also a process of building up a character in terms of characteristics and back story, but let's focus on arcs).

One very simple to follow recent example is Kumiko in Hibike. Whether you like the show or not, her character development is incredibly clear. She goes from being a fairly cynical realist to being a lot more of an idealist. She is led their by her experiences with Reina and the rest of her friends. At the beginning of the show her expectations are so low that she can't even believe anybody could cry about how well her band did. But by the end she is making impassioned pleas about fuck everybody else, we're gonna win this thing.

Another really great example is Farnese in Berserk. She basically goes through a process of ridding herself of all the delusions she was infected with by her privileged upbringing. First she has to learn that she's not actually a competent commander, then she has to learn that her whole society's religion is bullshit, and eventually her final lesson is that she's not nothing without her family. She's her own person with value, and she shouldn't pin all of her self-worth on whether or not daddy loves her. This realization is what allows her to finally leave and continue on her journey.

>>144462958
>Would Thorfinn from Vinland Saga count?

i haven't read vinland saga. but assuming it happened as you described, going from a blood thirsty warrior to a pacifist due to some slavery, yes that would constitute character development. Sometimes it happens fast, sometimes it's quiet and gradual, however it almost always happens on screen due to "something" affecting their outlook in someway. Its never off screen unless the narration can cover the event which might have caused it in a suitable way.

>>144462997
10/10

>>144462963
Not that anon but I noticed that as well.

If a character screws up in an American TV show he's supposed to "learn from his mistakes". Hence why the whole "villain becomes anti hero" trope is more prevalent in western media.

Even other characters in a show usually act like they've just seen a ghost if you make the same mistake twice and refuse to improve yourself, something more common in anime.

Quite interesting to think about, really.

>>144462997
Ah, that's actually pretty simple. I guess I expect some kind of massive spectacle whenever a character's outlook/views change in a meaningful way, I really should pay more attention to the stuff I read/watch.

>>144463188
American TV shows are just better written in general really. Any 2 TV shows about crime(e.g. The Shield,Hannibal), are going to have more differences than any 2 Harem/shounen/shoujo/isekai/etc anime.

Character development is usually gabarge, like the neet learns to man up or some other predictable Aesop

Anime needs more asymmetrical character development like Guts or Lucius Vorenus where its not predictable and interesting

>>144462159
It's a legit female thing though.

>>144463398
It's limited by the fact that most of the time, the 'characters' barely tend to be characters and are the same tired archetypes in a different wrapper.

There's no way you can do meaningful character development with something like a dense Harem MC.

>>144463218
Additionally, the reason "character development" is desirable is because seeing "growth" in a character is satisfying. Watching a character you like earn strength, skill, or understanding over the course of a journey and then utilize that hard-won growth to overcome adversity and improve their situation from where they were at the beginning of that journey is incredibly satisfying.

Keep in mind of course that there are other types of arcs and other types of character development. For example, GiTS:SAC is not a very character-driven show despite having a pretty distinct cast of characters. Most of the character development is actually achieved through camaraderie. For most of the show you just feel like you're watching these characters do their jobs, and they don't seem to have a huge emotional investment in what's going on, but at the end when they're forced to fight for their lives, you realize you're invested in these characters. The reason for that is that the viewer builds a feeling of camaraderie with those characters over the course of the narrative. The major and Batou don't really show a bunch of growth, but they are subtly developed by showing how they think, feel, react, and how good they are at what they do, and by showing their relationships with each other. By the end you don't want to see them broken up because you know how good they are together.

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>>144463218
It's like actual growth, you don't quite notice it until you take a look back.
Vegeta went from a cold-hearted warrior that killed his comrade without any remorse to a family man that wants to see his son grow strong.

>>144463656
Unless you go full School Days of course.

i like it when the characters get close to doing a 360 in growth. character development like in relife is a joke to watch. kids eating up wise lectures and getting it together after a nights rest. nhk and nana are good and I'd still say its characters don't go change like clannad's okazaki but that's because they don't have magical orbs to guide them back to safety.

The term dumbasses use in place of "dynamic" or "round".

>>144463965
"character development" "dynamic characters" and "round characters" are three different things, friend. For example, a character doesn't have to be dynamic to be round and vice versa.

>>144464080
"Character development" is used interchangeably here, amigo. That's the issue, because it's not a serious term.

>>144464177
"Character development" is just a very general term. For example, a character can be developed into a round character, or a character can be developed into a dynamic character, or both. It's really just an abstract term that means "the writing of a character." It can be done well and it can be done poorly, for example.

>>144462019
No, you're thinking of CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

Someone post that Literally a Jew -> Literally Hitler MC

Why is anime such shit at having decent characters? Are there even any anime with good, realistic characters that aren't tired archetypes?? I don't even remember anymore

>>144462380
Nah, sometimes the situations are all basically the same. Or the character always responds the same way regardless of any differences. So either way there's nothing new.

It's like opening 10 doors and always finding a goat. WSJ battle MCs sometimes latch onto a theme and that's roughly their whole character. The new stuff is in the different battle situations, not in the character development.

>>144465072
>i use the word "archetype" even though i don't know what it means

>>144465072
>realistic characters
People are often pretty bland and samey you know. Amping up popular traits is what leads to archetypes.

If you wanted to have unusual characters with backstory explaining some of their oddness? You'd spend most of 12 episodes just on their backstories. Otherwise you'd have people saying the characters make no sense or they're stupid and can't be related to.

>>144465284
Sorry, I mean shit like genki-girl, tsundere, cooldere, the araara, moeblob airheaded clutz, that type of stuff. Tropes, maybe?

>>144465371
I guess so, but it just feels like most anime characters act too completely ridiculous, like your average harem tsundere for instance. I'd rather have those 12 episodes of backstory to explain their behavior if they're going to act in an overblown way.

>>144463703
now you're mixing ideas.

character development =/= getting stronger.

Just because Light got a death note doesn't mean his fundamental character changed. Who he was was the same person he was before the murder weapon landed in his hands.

It was through repeated use of that murder weapon, eventually leading to L's death, where we get a bit of growth in Light's character (in a negative direction as his megalomaniacal tendencies got worse), either way the "growth" in this character was minor to insignificant over the course of the story, and he died completely unrepentant.

Ichigo becoming a soul reaper =/= character growth, who he was remained essentially unchanged. Deku getting a quark =/= character growth. who he was remained almost completely unchanged; he would have done anything to get a Quark, just because he had to workout for a bit doesn't mean he suddenly had a spurt of character growth, that was an action born of existing character. Gaining strength CAN be a source of character growth, though typically it's a RESULT of character growth not a CAUSE. If i'm an unrepentant piece of shit, i'll remain an unrepentant piece of shit even if you hand me a gun. That I might now be able to perform some more gruesome crimes means nothing about my character changing in any way, i just didn't have a tool available to make those desires possible beforehand.

So a character starting off as a weakling and getting stronger is NOT character growth. A weakling starting off as a craven coward, watching his first love getting raped and killed, then going into a training arc for revenge, killing the man who raped and murdered his love after much hardship and overcoming his fears/weakness == character growth.

After reading that don't suddenly point at Deku , Deku would jump out to save someone when he had no quark, just because he was scared shitless doesn't mean he somehow gained some "character growth" when he got his HAX ability.

>>144466660
You're conflating development and growth.

>>144461923
In as simple of a way I can explain. The character of a series, whether they are the protagonist, antagonist, supporting roles, or just that recurring side character, growing and learning and changing just as a real person would.
Say a character experiences a traumatic moment half way through a series and goes from an overly optimistic and giddy person to a more serious and down to earth person as the story progresses. Ultimately becoming someone slightly different than who they started as. That is a character developing
Now if a traumatic experience did happen, but they go back immediately to being how they were before with no signs of maturing or really being permanently phased by the event, then they arent developing. They remain how they were from the start.

>>144462380
I think the point is that a character doesn't have to change to develop, the audience can just be shown a new side of them. It was always a part of their personality, it just hadn't been revealed yet.

>>144462963
Agreed, and this is part of what I actively like about Japanese stuff. There is more rooms for tragedy in that 'Japanese style' than there is in the 'American Style'. The latter way implies that if a character does something wrong, there ought to have been an objectively better way to act that could have avoided that situation and that they should work to overcome whatever flaw led them to that action in the fist place. The former, however, allows for the possibility of more fundamental forms of moral conflict that cannot be resolved through some obvious 'improvement' of character.

>>144462331
Utena really is something that you have to watch twice to actually get. It's unfortunate that it is the way it is, but it deliberately makes its characters seem less complex than they are in order to reveal shit about them later that changes they way you understand past scenes in retrospect. It also heavily uses visual/symbolic storytelling techniques in ways it expects you to pay attention to, but without first telling you the 'rules' under which it is operating. A ton of shit is implied through mannerism without begin outright stated in dialog that I did not understand the first time through.

As an example, if you didn't pick up that Nanami was Anthy's victim in almost every circumstance then you likely didn't understand the series.

Character development means one of two things:

It can mean the way a character is fleshed out so that we know more about their personality. This is often called characterization, but some sources will use the terms interchangeably. In this sense the character "develops" much like a photograph. We get a clearer picture by seeing the different facets of the character, typically through the character's response to difficult situations.

The second meaning is a reference to the character arc, or how a character changes in personality from beginning to end. So a character could begin childish and immature, but due to the events of the plot becomes more mature and level-headed.

In some ways, both definitions are slightly the same, because it's all about seeing more of the character and the way they grow and the audience's understanding of the character deepens.

>>144463750
I'm watching Kimagure Orange Road right now, and I'd love to see something that was a balance between that and this. Like, what I wouldn't give to have the characters just stop moping around and just start fucking shit up.

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>>144468255
This whole thread is like that

Character development can also mean that we explore other facets about the character that make the much more defined. Like say we get a genki heroine and then suddenly we find out that she has a tragic past. She didn't "grow" but her character was developed because we understand her more.

Pic related is an example, she hardly changes but throughout the series we find out about her past. The fact that she is a widow, then we see her past relationship as she changes from a cheerful, innocent, puppy dog love into a mature calm (most of the time) women she is in the series.

Broadly speaking it's the way a character changes over the course of a story. Traditionally this follows a predictable path that starts at a low point with some pending issue they have to deal with, proceeds to a climax where the issue is confronted, and then winds down to a conclusion where the changed character fits into his old environment. If mapped out if forms a parabola, or arc. Hence the term "character arc."

Character development often has a positive connotation attached to it, but it doesn't always have to be about characters changing for the better, nor does it have to be done in an arc format. It's also not a universally good thing to develop characters, though that sounds odd since most people talk about character development when there isn't enough of it.

>>144465893
>like your average harem tsundere for instance
Sounds like you ordered a salad when you wanted a steak. Don't watch harems for character drama. It's a genre that lives and breathes cliches and archetype characters.

Character growth can be part of character development but it isn't character development itself.

Should we start using food analogies?

>>144470242
>>144470173
Nevermind too late

>>144463428
you've been watching too many animes

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>>144462079
>Character development isn't just a character developing
no

>>144470521
Just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.

Vegeta's character development was god tier

His speech to goku in the Buu arc was such a good indicator of his state of mind and how he came to terms with the state of things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INlntMXEe_I

Vegeta's sacrifice was such a big turning point for his character, the fact that he was such a proud saiyan prince, yet he died to save others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C0R3DdOfk

And finally his speech near the end of the series were he realizes that goku is better than him was such a good scene, and really showed how his character changed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOTru2snlkY

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Easiest example of character development is this nigga right here.

>>144471290
Man, Avatar really was great. I wish we had more shows like that, both Japanese and American.

>>144471203
A good character ruined by teh anime power creep