http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-ne ws/2016/06/11-1/anime-ey

>>142771116
>Shitty artist can't draw eyes for shit
>Whines about the declining state of the industry

>>142771362
>Has to draw something very complex every frame
>Gets paid by frame
Do you understand how this is a problem? The average animator barely survives with what he earns, they don't need more problems.

>>142771442
>make less anime
>pay more to animators
>profit

It's not like we will lose something anyway.

>>142771116
>crunchyroll
>not linking the source article

>>142771539
With animators living on such bad conditions its hard for them to be interested in making good content. Which means less sakuga and more QUALITY

>>142771116
Maybe they can reduce the complexity of other facial features, like say the nos- oh wait.

>>142771362
>Shitty artist
He's a veteran who worked on Akira.

>>142771442
>>142771638
He can't draw eyes and that the current style places them as the focal point of facial expression. So he's fucked unless he can adapt and evolve to accommodate to the current styles.

He's more suited to old style facial expressions.
>a key animator veteran of productions from Akira to Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad to several Naruto films
Old man yells at cloud.

>>142771623
The detail in anime designs tend to come from the eyes, hair, and costume.

>>142771610
Well clearly none of them are in it for the money. I think an interest in creating good content is the very reason they'd be there.

>>142771116
Isn't anime a fairly big industry? Why do they get paid so horribly?

>>142771696
No filthy socialism around since the 70's

>>142771116
>eyes are one of the main attractions of anime
>complains about drawing them
It's like complaining about chocolate in a chocolate factory.

>>142771696
Anime production is a relatively cheap affair.

>>142771638
Akira has shit character designs.

>>142771116
how come westerners can pump out any old cartoon while paying everyone correctly in the process and nipon cant?

>>142771696
Animation may be skilled work, but it also happens to be grunt work employed on a large scale in any particular production. Low-level animation work is basically a commodity, so individual animators are pretty much interchangable and have very little bargaining power.

>>142772121
Western animation studios do try to suppress animator wages despite unions. IIRC there was a wage-fixing scandal among some CG studios a while back.

>named his minor involvements like Beck and Naruto
>instead of his animation masterpiece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkZ0OcMiA-g

Fucking faggot still got paid for this shitty article?

>No shading
>Simple as fuck designs
>Now whining about eyes
What's next, the human figure is too taxing to animate?

File: 1429937335615.jpg (20KB, 218x245px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 218x245px

>>142773029

>>142772967
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCimw4KkIdY

He's pretty good.

To be completely fair, there's often a lot of unnecessary detail slapped onto eyes just to be "stylish" or whatever rather than focusing on adding detail to the features that are actually moving. We're not normally going to learn much from the dozens of lines and extra detailed glare on a character's iris or super stylized mascera compared to how much we can actually discover from stuff like their eyelids wrinkling or their pupils dilating. With that in mind, the work put into those superfluous details detracts from time that could go to more important ones. I blame that more on animators failing to understand actual expressions and body language than shit budgets and tight schedules though.

>>142773411
>I blame that more on animators failing to understand actual expressions and body language than shit budgets and tight schedules though.

Hence the autism meme.

>>142773411
Shouldn't the blame be on character designers instead?

File: 760.png (53KB, 300x300px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 300x300px

>>142773472
Yeah, character design should be just simple and cute.

>>142773472
By animators I mean entire studios, but when it comes to inefficient art styles dragging everything down, yeah.

Heh... the filthy, disgusting pedophile otaku pandering is finally eating into the wallets of animators, huh?

Looks like all modern anime is shit as usual

>>142771767
Seriously, this. If the industry starts fucking up the eyes, they'll have killed anime themselves.

Why not simplify eye glistening and add a third layer of shadow to the rest of the body.

>>142771116
CGI eyes incoming.

How Can Eyes Kill Anime If Our Eyes Aren't Real

>Back in my days, eyes weren't so damn hard to draw.

You're getting old, gramps. I'm pretty sure the rocking chair in the nursing home will be more to your liking.

>>142771767
>>142774731
Nah, they didn't need super flashy eyes in the old days, and they don't need them now.

File: 1374228233068.jpg (15KB, 223x214px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 223x214px

Then give me more low-effort shit like Kill Me Baby and Luluco. Stuff where the animators are taking the piss is just as enjoyable to me as incredibly animated stuff like Nichijou.

>>142775139
It's true though, look at his work from back then. The designs were a lot simpler. >>142773380

File: --hakurei-reimu-and-sananana-cookie-touhou-and-touhou--sample-df90d389d7d996da7c56ef152bc70cd9.jpg (154KB, 850x850px) Image search: [Google]

154KB, 850x850px

>>142771116
It would be probably much more problematic when the strange shaped pupils becomes a norm for anime character designs

>>142771767
He's the old generation of animator as was already pointed out. He doesn't understand what anime is.
He's one of those autistic few who think animating a walk cycle for 3 weeks makes sense, but can't be assed to draw anything with detail.

Thankfully he is a part of a dying breed.

And yes. I am very much implying style trumps substance.

>>142775139
bullshit, late 80s anime started the glittery anime eyes.

>>142775159
Old timer weould cry about them not taking animation seriously.

File: [GJM-Vivid] Haruchika ~Haruta to Chika wa Seishun Suru~ - 01 [284499CF].mkv_snapshot_03.37_[2016.01.09_11.37.04].jpg (475KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

475KB, 1280x720px

>>142771116
Get good.

File: gif.gif (355KB, 400x225px) Image search: [Google]

355KB, 400x225px

>old anime was harder to animate they said
Sakugafags destroyed.
By one of their own gurus no less.

>>142775238
>He's one of those autistic few who think animating a walk cycle for 3 weeks makes sense, but can't be assed to draw anything with detail.
What're you basing that impression on?

>>142775787
His personal work.

>>142771116
>Eyes are killing anime.
What's next, Long hairs are to hard to be animated?

>>142772121
Because there are maybe 10 new cartoons with budgets in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) a year versus 150+ anime with budgets in the tens of thousands (or less)

>>142775238
>And yes. I am very much implying style trumps substance.
kill yourself and don't you ever talk about animation ever again

>>142771696
Japan treat themselves like slave.

sounds like he should practice how to draw and make nice eyes since it is his job.

>>142775985
Go cry on your designated forums sakugatrash.
No one gives a flying fuck about what you think here.

>>142776035
You sound insecure.

>>142775238
It is an animated medium after all, of course that should be the focus.

>>142775985

It's always been the case and always will be. You choose to go either path, but going both will just end in mediocre shit.

>>142774612
>...
Don't do this shit

File: ruqerr6iilanyqefda6z.jpg (27KB, 620x400px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 620x400px

>>142776195
You'd be surprised to learn the focus of animation has shifted quite a few times, and indeed at certain points of it's history style has trumped substance so hard slideshows were preferred over keyframe heavy productions just to keep the stylization as good as possible.

Cartoons in the 60s and anime in the late 90s for example.

>>142776344
>hard slideshows were preferred over keyframe heavy productions
Pretty sure that was done due to keep the animation costs down rather than a shift in preferences.

>>142771116
Complaining about this in this day and age is bullshit. Animating has gotten so easy nowadays thanks to digital, that there's no room for complaining. Cell animation took much more time and effort.

>>142776459
Very doubtful.
Both in 60s USA and 90s Japan animators were basically minimal wage earners. In Japan they very much still are.
It was done to meet deadlines, not budgets.

And more recently it's done because people don't give a damn about smooth animation. We have live action and video games for that.

Anime exists to this day because of it's style.
If the industry starts sacrificing style for keyframes - something no one besides the most mouthbreathing retards care for - they will without a doubt kill the medium.

>>142776561
Most animators still draw on paper, and even then digital tools don't make life so much easier for animators. It's more efficient in the grand scheme of things but at the end of the day it's the animator's skill that counts most.

>>142776639
>Most animators still draw on paper
Only the keyframes now.
I can see those going full digital soon too.

>>142776639
>even then digital tools don't make life so much easier for animators

It does though, especially for coloring. Back in the day people had to use actual paint, today you just click on the paint bucket tool and an entire section is done in a split second.

File: 1337065156810.gif (682KB, 469x250px) Image search: [Google]

682KB, 469x250px

>>142776035
i'd say my opinion is worth more since you don't understand shit about animation.
thank god you're not in charge of this shit huh.
pretty pictures != animation

>>142776294
kill yourself

>>142776344
yeah because haruchika (style) was so great compared to hyouka (animation) amirite? why do you think people like that show?

style doesn't do much for a show while animation brings it to life. even with SHAFT slideshow shit it's usually the well animated (and highly sexualized) scenes that make an impact on viewers.

and just to make myself clear i don't disagree with >>142775238 except for the last sentence. that guy is probably indeed just incapable of learning how the more modern styles work.

>>142776726
That's 3DCG bruh.
Also Kyoani is the poster child for style over substance.

>thank god you're not in charge of this shit huh.
You'd be surprised.

>>142775238
>being this stupid and ignorant
>not understanding how the animation production works
>being underage

It's 18+ here kid.

>>142776720
Coloring isn't done by animators. They have different staff for that.

File: 1337122329041.gif (3MB, 313x255px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 313x255px

>>142776788
>That's 3DCG bruh.
your mom is 3DCG you retard

>>142776788
>Also Kyoani is the poster child for style over substance.
so kyoani is the posterchild for slideshow shitfests? again, you have no clue what you're even saying.

>>142776788
>You'd be surprised.
you'd be surprised too

>>142771573
>via Otaku USA

>>142776626
>It was done to meet deadlines, not budgets.
It was due to both really, limited animation was suited for the cheaper and tighter productions of TV animation.

Anime is able to thrive in this relatively low-budget environment because the Japanese managed to embrace limited animation and make the most out of it. They are still interested in making things move well, but with less resources than western productions.

I think it's not right of you to claim only "mouthbreathing retards" care for good animation. Casual viewers are able to appreciate good animation, it's common to see people praise an episode with good animation and people clearly enjoy that stuff.

File: Qoww0nK.jpg (244KB, 704x672px) Image search: [Google]

244KB, 704x672px

>>142771116
>At this rate, animators can’t eat (；´Д｀)
I can't understand why anyone would tackle such a difficult job for so little pay. Just do anything else as an artist. Why work for peanuts?

>>142776664
>Only the keyframes now.
Good thing that's what key animators are in charge of then.

>>142776999
Because Japan has hundreds of artists and only a limited amount of jobs for them.
The same reason most artists in Europe and USA wait tables in cafes.

>>142777156
The anime industry actually needs more animators due to the sheer amount of anime being made per season.

>>142777156
>The same reason most artists in Europe and USA wait tables in cafes.
Artists in the west at least make money. It'd be like training for 2 years to work for no money at all. I made more money with my first job than animators make.

>>142771116
Chitanda's perfect eye destroy the budget.

>>142775459
Die

>>142777212
No they don't.
Japan used to employ hundreds of subcontractors from China and Korea 10 years ago. If anything they're employing less every year.
So they don't seem to have a short supply of artists.

>>142777259
>Artists in the west at least make money.
The 1%s.
Most artists in the West can't get an artistic job.

File: 1413568230765.jpg (49KB, 529x529px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 529x529px

>>142777356
>Most artists in the West can't get an artistic job.
Hobbyists aren't artists, you know.

>>142776999
>>142777156
Is "passion" and "interest" not enough of a reason for you fags?

>>142777423
More like Western people have the intelligence to give up before it's too late.
A lot of my friends from the art academy started business and are doing splendid for themselves right now. They would've been circulating around the poverty line if they had kept on painting and drawing. A lot of them were very good. But life is life. People have to eat.

And art doesn't pay your bills. Unless you're one of the lucky few.

Why do people care the welfare of animators? They could be literal slaves for all I care. As long as I get my mongolian movies, I don't give a shit.

File: hqr42XT.jpg (113KB, 649x629px) Image search: [Google]

113KB, 649x629px

>>142777469
For a job? No. The more skill\time a job requires the more money you need.

File: latest-3.jpg (120KB, 702x718px) Image search: [Google]

120KB, 702x718px

How much did these take to animate?

>>142777356
Wrong, there are still many Japanese working in key animation(and inbetweens even). Production runners have complained on numerous occasions about finding manpower to finish work. The problem is that not many people want to be animators nor do new animators last long in the industry due to shitty work conditions and pay.

Anime has evolved in such a way that the only thing designers have to express a character physically are hair, clothes, and eyes. Obviously hair and clothes are superficial, so if you want to make the girl cute, she needs cute eyes. If they don't like drawing complex eyes, than you haven't to abandon the moe theme and make more diverse character designs like in the past or Western animation.

>>142777553
go to bed kid

>>142777577
>that hair,clothhing, and eye detail
That sure looks like a pain to animate.

>>142777645
It's morning here you idiot.

Is what Yaginuma is saying wrong? It sounds like a fairly reasonable concern to me.

>>142777666
yeah, so you don't pollute anything in your life than what you already did.

>>142777633
That doesn't mean they have a short supply of workers.
That means they can't pay them enough to keep them on.

The problem is as I pointed out, those young man and women can literally make more by flipping burgers in McDs. Granted McDs workers get paid quite well in Japan. In a country like Japan with a dwindling birthrate you have options - work somewhere else, draw a doujin for comiket, ????, profit.

Animation work is a dead career move.
Some people are idealistic enough to do it still.
But most aren't. Not a bad thing. The industry will either evolve or die and make way for something better.

File: CQZM0xpUkAAOS7L.jpg (57KB, 884x811px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 884x811px

maybe he should learn to draw before he complains about not earning enough, what a baby

>>142777798
You're completely missing the point, he already knows how to draw them, he's simply stating that the effort required to make something so detailed is not cost-beneficial, which isn't wrong.

This sounds more like a personal rambling than an actual problem.

>>142777795
Who says it's the end? In the anime industry, you can start with key animation the go your way up from there by learning the ropes from other people. Great anime directors at least knows all the work involved in creating anime, you know. Do not be a dumb monkey, at least do your research before you speak your nonsense.

>>142777965
It is.

File: CQZNqoXUkAE3kwg.jpg (46KB, 694x655px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 694x655px

>>142777921
so he's just lazy then. if he can't hack it, he should just quit. anime doesn't need whiners like him.

>>142778060
How many anime directors do you think are active right now?
Don't be a retard. There's thousands of people capable of being an animator in Japan right now. And only a couple hundred active directors - that's probably an optimistic number.

As you can see from this very thread even a veteran with 30 years in the industry behind him is still grinding keyframes.

2D animator is a dead end career move. It is what it is.

Also if your research starts and ends with Shirobako maybe you should, I dunno, stfu or something.

>>142778171
I'm thinking he'd shut his mouth if he actually earned a decent pay.

>>142771696
The same reason working on video games is awful: lots of people are fans who want to work on what they love. Because of this there is a large pool of labor willing to put up with bullshit from employers, and they get taken advantage of accordingly.

>ITT: /a/ knows better how to animate.

>>142778316
This. If /a/ could animate, Ket-ai would be a series of OVAs already.

>>142778310
>The same reason working on video games is awful
It really isn't.
All you need to do is admit to yourself you're making a pile of steaming shit.

A job is a job.
The only reason to work in a big gaming company is to make connections anyway.
You start your own company to make what you like later. Ask for a crazy amount of money for it on kickstarter as well if you're famous enough.

And I'm ignoring the fact 50% of the workers in the gaming industry are subcontractors.

File: BASED MADHOUSE.jpg (81KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

81KB, 1920x1080px

>>142771116
>>142771442
>while average pay for one frame is ¥200 (just under $2
Did they say this to show the amount an animator is paid relative to the work they do, or does it literally mean paid per frame?

That's fucking ridiculous and probably is part of the problem.

I work in a post house (I'm on the audio side but I also run tech support for the visual side) and we wouldn't hire anyone like that. We've done full 3D animations from scratch that take months of work for something that's barely 4 minutes.

Why can't Japan figure out how to treat it's workers better so that I can pirate the fruits of their passion and sleep deprived working hours for free?

This article wad paid by Kyoani, trust me.

>>142778574
They literally get paid per frame.

Why are animators paid so poorly?

>>142778663
That's a shit way to make art. You're incentivizing them to do rushed, shitty work to churn out more frames.

>>142778663
do CG artists get paid by frame too?

that might explain the low frame rates in anime.

>>142778746
They're not making art.
They're making a throwaway medium that is mostly used for advertisement.

That's the disconnected most of /a/ has with reality I suppose - the inability to admit that - anime is in fact - an ad for LNs or a video game, or less often nowadays - a manga.

>>142778833
They get a monthly salary.

>>142778833
Low frame rates in CG are because they try to make it look more like 2D animation.

>>142778833
CG artists work for other studios. Their studio gets contracted to do a job. How they get paid is up to their studio but I suspect they do have some quota but are otherwise paid a per hour wage like everyone else in Japan.

>>142778930
This. They do it on purpose.
And they waste less time on the farm so it's a win win.

>>142778739
Shitty work culture.

File: Death Note Ryuk Eye.png (1MB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1280x720px

>combining eye and shitting on the industry threads

Genius.

>>142775190
So he's just an old man who should retire already

File: Planetes 01 eye.png (1MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x1080px

Eyes in modern anime tend to have a lot of detail but I don't see the problem. They tend to be single single frames most of the time.

>>142778746
Most viewers don't really care if the animation is good or not unless it's very obvious QUALITY.

Paying per frame makes it easy to budget animation and it also means you don't have to pay a lot to animators who are not very productive.

>>142777541
Business in what?

>>142779242
The problem is I don't care about detailed fucking eyes. They're nice austhetically, but unless it's a kyoani show, nobody would give a shit.

What framerate is anime broadcasted at? 29.97?

>>142771116
Yeah, just have dots for eyes for every single character, i'm sure people would watch THAT

File: Black Jack 02 (35).png (836KB, 1232x738px) Image search: [Google]

836KB, 1232x738px

>>142779355
>The problem is I don't care about detailed fucking eyes
You should.

>unless it's a kyoani show, nobody would give a shit
>implying

>>142779387
Yes. And typically animated at half that.

File: Psycho Pass eye 3.png (2MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1920x1080px

There really is a craze about eyes going on in modern anime but I can't imagine it's that problematic for animators. Haven't heard anyone complain about this before.

>>142779453
14.985???

>>142778839
That doesn't describe all projects, though it does describe a fair number of them.

>>142779387
Broadcast framerate and the rate it's drawn at are different.

I believe anime is done at 24 frames a second but some countries do 25.

However actually doing 24 would be full animation, as anime is cheap and limited it's done at half or even a third of that.

File: Rebuild 3.33 Shinji eye.png (1MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x1080px

>>142778839
Advertisement can't be art?

>>142779322
Not art if that's what you're asking.
One started as a wedding photographer, later was running an web design/print shop with his wife on top of the photography.
Another made a small restaurant.
Another got a major in accounting.
So on.

>>142779639
I think they've switched to 30 since hdtv became standard. 30 Hz is the standard for ntsc movies.
NTSC doesn't have a 24/25 Hz standard. They have a 23. something one.

>>142779690
Advertisement can incorporate elements of art, but is not, itself, art, except for in the most general, reductive sense.

File: Cowboy Bebop eye.jpg (40KB, 960x720px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 960x720px

>>142779840
Are you the kind of person that believes the animation, voice acting and music in an anime is art but anime isn't.

While stuff like Gundam is a toy commercial, 0079 was a great war and sci-fi story and if you think it's not art because the creators also intended to make money, that's retarded.

>>142779840
Advertisement is actually often where avant garde shit is allowed where larger, safer productions would never give it a chance.

Advertisement has an important place in culture and art.

Anime is shite though

>>142778839
>, or less often nowadays - a manga.
Manga adaptations are still the majority of anime that gets produced.

>>142779840
>implying this isn't some form of art
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8yW5cyXXRc

File: Puella-Magi-Madoka-Magica-mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-32925033-2628-1898.jpg (855KB, 2628x1898px) Image search: [Google]

855KB, 2628x1898px

>>142779840
Anything human made CAN be art. Anything and everything comes art when a person declares it as such. This way, art is a subjective thing. Something for you is art and that same thing can be throwaway shit for someone else.

Art is pretty useless meaning in that sense overall. It just means that a human made piece of work has a meaning to someone. Nothing more, nothing less.

File: 3zvAbZh.jpg (85KB, 1600x900px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 1600x900px

Fuck WIT studio and their detailed character designs.

>>142778574
I believe Kyoani pays their animators differently from other studios.

>>142781911
I'm looking forward to Ancient Magus' Bride

File: 1409860971033.jpg (10KB, 197x171px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 197x171px

>>142771116
Maybe the character designers and directors should opt for a more simplistic, but distinct, art style for their shows instead of encrusting their merchandise vehicles' eyes with gems and jewels.

File: mpv-shot0003.jpg (57KB, 960x540px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 960x540px

>no eyes
>no hands

From here on out, all Ougi all the time.

>>142782039
They do. Their animators are on salaries instead of being paid by the hour or by frame.

File: 1440620648032.jpg (87KB, 635x1000px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 635x1000px

>>142781129
>Anything human made CAN be art. Anything and everything comes art when a person declares it as such
Yeah no. That's just the bullshit art schools have been spouting for the last 116 years but it's not true at all.

>>142782861
What other standard can you use?

File: Abbey 002.jpg (304KB, 1257x1600px) Image search: [Google]

304KB, 1257x1600px

>>142782889
Common sense. Art is about beauty, primarily. People usually just want to be seen as artists, they want recognition without doing any work.

It really depends on the show. There's a lot of modern anime with simplistic or average eyes. And they are already saving time on shadows, vehicles and plenty of animation tricks they do to cut corners weekly. Sure their wage still sucks, but I believe he was exaggerating for effect because that's how twitter works.

>>142783388
Ah, yes, common sense and beauty, those most easily defined and objective standards by which to regard something.

>>142784611
Common sense goes a long way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

>>142774612
Pandering to shitty gaijin taste isn't sa good idea either; especially when we are still stuck in the SJW wars

>>142784935
What's wrong with that photograph? It's well composed and visually appealing even if it is shock art on some levels.

Honestly, there's a million better examples you could have picked, but none of them prove your point. "Common sense" is a different thing for everyone and what may seem idiotic to you might make perfect sense to someone else.

File: ふたごちゃんも見る一挙放送をよろしく.jpg (75KB, 596x482px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 596x482px

>>142785114
>What's wrong with that photograph?
Everything, I'm afraid.
>Honestly, there's a million better examples you could have picked, but none of them prove your point.
I don't have to prove anything. I'm right.
>"Common sense" is a different thing for everyone
Riiiiiight

>>142785414
>I don't have to prove anything, I'm right
That's not how it works you retard. Clearly you are either trolling or terminally stupid. Kill yourself.

>>142785414
>Common sense is objective
Are you a literal retard?

>>142771116
Why aren't they paying differently depending on complexity of a frame? Wouldn't that be better for both employer (more control over quality) and the animators (actually get payed for the amount they put in) in the long run?


Or do they and the article is misleading, I actually don't know how this works besides the common knowledge that they're payed shit

>>142785624
>Why aren't they paying differently depending on complexity of a frame?
Because that'd be stupid and would make things way too complicated.