Daily Japanese Thread DJT #1544

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Friendly Reminder

How to tell if something is a shitpost:
>calls the community made guide/whatever method a piece of shit with no reasoning given why
>insults someone giving helpful advice with no reasoning given why
>attempts to create arguments over virtually nothing (eg opinions without facts)
>"spam questions" that are easily answered via a 1 second glance at the guide
>uses obtuse Japanese fragments interspersed with English to attempt bypass people trying to filter the shitposts
>any mention of anime being shit, or "real Japanese"
>spells the word as romaji

>>141657920
>tfw not smarter than a 5th grader
http://happylilac.net/sy-k5test.html

Talking with nipponjins on a japanese chat app sorta like omegle only with no cam
Coversation starts with the usual asl crap
Can't type fast enough cuz baka gaijin
As soon as i say I'm a male the other guy switches conversations
Hornyjaps.png
Only way out of this loop is to start pretending I'm a dog spamming wan wan
Mfw it actually works and i got many meaningful conversations started that way

>>141657977
Stop posting this, they will avoid doing what you listed and shitpost anyway.

>>141657977

>literally outlining how to shit post in DJT for newfags

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>>141657977
thank you for showing me how to shitpost! がんばる!

finally it's thread starter epic meme posting time, the favorite moments of my life

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どうもがいても外人は外人なのさ

がむしゃら苦しさ悔しさ

結局何を手に入れたお前は

>>141657920
I like this thread image. Made me chuckle.

Does anyone else think that the 2k6k vocabulary deck is shit?
Like it teaches you words you probably don't need for quite some time but won't give you the basics you need for easy conversations?

I mean, I had days where I learned almost only useful and important words and then there are days there you just ask yourself when the fuck this is supposed to be useful ever.

I would prefer to only learn basics and start reading, but what I've learned so doesn't even remotely allow me to do that.
Kinda feels like a waste of time to be honest.

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Holy shit, there IS a way to text hook just about any emulated game:
http://mx-futhark.github.io/hook-any-text/

>>141658360
Well, at least their options will be pretty limited.
>>141658378
The way I see it is that it tells the mods what to look out for.

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>>141658884
alright so just get the yotsuba vocab decks and do those

>>141658884
Someone should do one based on Japanese subtitles for tv shows, or something.

>>141659061
I'm already doing that on top of it.

>>141659102
Not a bad idea, also could need one for hentai vocabulary.

>>141658884
You only think the words are useless because you've never actually read anything. The words in the deck I've never seen irl can be counted on one hand.

>>141659128
中出し、フレンド。

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>>141659128
>I'm already doing that on top of it
so whats the problem

>>141659162
this. everything is useful just read more

stop grind start read

>>141658884
The "useless" words share kanji with the common words and knowing/practicing both helps you remember.

>>141659061
>>141659102
>>141659162
>>141659210
Okay I guess I'll shut up and keep doing my reps then.

>>141659180
Doesn't sound as sexy as I thought, it's as sexy as german porn dialog.

>>141659420
I see, didn't think about that before.

>>141659644
おそいぞい

>>141658991
That's pretty cool. I've wanted to play Xenosaga I&II on NDS, but it has so much scifi and science info spam that it can be painful.

Is it usually easier to read manga or play Japanese games?

I guess games should be easier if they are more focused on gameplay rather than story is that right?

>>141660296
>the more it becomes fun
英語も練習すべき

Any site where I can enter a Japanese books name and read it online or at least check out the first few pages?

>>141658303
kek

>>141660296
日本語 is not fun, 日本語 is the wall separating you from fun

>>141660387
I find games easier because text hooking > manual lookups/image OCR, and voice acting also helps with words that you might not recognize instantly from reading it.

>>141660387
With games you might end up getting time limited text where it's only on the screen for a few seconds while manga won't be going anywhere. Also not sure if you can text hook anything that's not a VN

>>141660296
I heard that's also true for Korean food.

>>141658884
If you're at the level where you are using Core decks you have no clue what are and aren't common/useful Japanese words, so how could you possibly have this complaint?

>>141660405
What's wrong with it?

>>141660921
He's obviously ESL, ignore him. DJT ESLs are some of the worst posters on /a/.

How bad am I holding myself back by not doing production? I'm doing my reps, grammar study, and reading every day but I haven't mustered the courage to go write something or talk to someone in Japanese.

>>141661007
Output is overrated. Just read a lot.

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本日の特別な言葉は
自閉症（じへいしょう）

鏡を見たらすぐに意味が分かる
よく覚えて　ね

>>141661007
Production is a waste of time.

>>141661025
>>141661050

see >>141658037

>>141661028
>鏡を見たら

*鏡を覗き込んだら

>>141661108
>kanji handwriting test
Literally who cares, not even most Japanese can handwrite anymore once they become adults and stop practicing it.

>>141661136
The test is not about handwriting, it's about picking the right kanji to fill in the blank.

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>>141661025
>>141661050

I'm ignoring/didn't bother to read in the first place all of your advice, and I'm just going to brute force my way through a 200 chapter manga with a dictionary.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/shutoken-news/20160518/5398961.html
日本銀行の試算によりますと、オリンピック・パラリンピックの開催が決まった翌年の２０１４年から２０２０年までの累積の経済効果は２５兆円から３０兆円程度に上るとされています。

翌年の２０１４年
What?? Im pretty sure next year is not 2014

>>141661311
おｋ
do you at least know basic grammar?

>>141661311
sounds like a blast hope it all goes great for ya

>>141661328
youre right it is in fact not 2014 next year good job

>>141661328
The year after it was decided that Japan would host the Olympics.

>>141658037
These are great. Any more materials like this?

I have a question about one of Tae Kim-sama's example conversations. The lesson deals with と to list multiple nouns but my question is about this particular use of の. Here's the passage in question.

スミス： 親子丼の材料は何ですか？
田中： ご飯と玉ねぎとしょうゆです。そして、親子丼だから、もちろん鶏肉と卵です。
スミス： 気持ち悪いですね。
田中： そうですか？でも、おいしいですよ。
スミス： かわいそうじゃないですか？
田中： スミスさんは、面白いですね。本当の親と子供じゃないですから大丈夫ですよ。
スミス： でも・・・。

In the second to last line, can someone explain how is の being used? Is 親と子供じゃない being given the noun property 本当?

>>141661497
may i direct you to the の and と chapters of the holy book of tyler

>>141661497
の is how 本当 becomes an adjective.

>Is 親と子供じゃない being given the noun property 本当?
Basically.

>>141661311
I hope you know grammar as dictionaries have a separate conjugation than what you'll be reading

>>141661379
Year of Jap in high school, can read and write traditional Chinese.
全然難しくね~

>>141661571
祝你好运花花公子

>>141661497
Specifically 親と子供. The sentence means "it's not real parents and children so it's ok."

>>141661671
but then are they fake parents and children? wheres the real ones

>>141661643
谢谢日本狗

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I was bored so I made these. Feel free to use them. Or don't.

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>>141661774

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>>141661774

>>141661713
Tae kim probably took them, some guys on 2ch told me that koreans like to eat people

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>>141661805

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>>141661842

Having trouble parsing this paragraph:

「まだまだ子供ねえ。ほうきはおもちゃじゃありませんよ。いずれはこのかあさんのほうきも古くなるでしょうよ、そうしたらキキのすきなのにしなさい。そのときはあなたも一人前になっているでしょうから」

Context is Kiki wants to fly with her own broom and not the old broom her mom has made her use all her life. It seems Mom won't have it. I get the gist, but I'm not quite sure about the third sentence.

"You're still such a child.
A broom is not a toy.
When you're as old as this broom, then you can do as you like. (*I'm 99% sure I have this wrong)
Because that's when you'll have become an adult."

>>141661824
犬猫だけ食べてと思った

なんてこった

>>141661881
relax with the opacity dude also its cool you made a bunch of gay pics

i like to make a bunch of gay posts maybe we can be friends

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>>141661881

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>>141661918

>>141658991

Neat neat neat. If this works properly or ever gets to that point I'd like to try one of the later Pokemon games with it.

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>>141661956

>>141661918
Make one like this with the teacher please

>>141661988
You have diarrhea.

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>>141661988

>>141661894
Eventually even mom's broom will become old, then you can choose the one you like.

>>141661795
beautiful timing (笑う)

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>>141662028


>>141662007
It's easy enough to make it yourself. All you do is slap the image you want on top of the original DJT image and set the transparency to somewhere between 35-50%.

all the main text is too opaque dude i cant read it

also instead of derailing this very fruitful and overall great thread maybe you should have just made a imgur album instead of spam your poor design portfolio in one go

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>>141662071

>>141662071
On the ones posted, the original DJT image is too transparent imo. Would look better if it wasn't so.

how do i stop confusing 顔 and 頭

>>141662169
Literally impossible, there isn't a single stroke difference that you could use to differentiate them.

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>>141662101

>>141662116
Yeah, I tried to fix that but I couldn't select the original text in such a way that the selection tool didn't also pick up bits of the background and make it look even worse.

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>>141662225

>>141661537
>>141661546
>>141661671
Thanks, the last explanation made the most sense. I'm re-watching the video and reading the entry in dojg and I understand it better

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>getting so entrenched in reading a doujin that family members walk by and you forget to even bother with hiding it

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>>141662251

>>141662225
>>141662251
>>141662296

Have to say I am 賛成 with >>141662073. The inversed one actually looks kinda cool but all the others are rather poor. Unless you only have one or two more to go it would be best to link them in an imgur album and not fill up the thread with these.

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>>141662296

Stop spamming anime OP pictures, I can't show this thread to my friends and tell them this is a serious place to learn Japanese ;_;

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>>141662336
Alright, that's the last of my shitty pictures.

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>>141662370
Oops, forgot about this one.

>>141662409
Gross.

>>141662409
Let's use this one.

>>141662277
Why did you post this?

>>141662560
I wish I could tell you, but I didn't post it. That's not even me.

>>141662251
I like this one.

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How hard is VH to read?

Why would someone write あやしげな instead of あやしい?

>>141662940
げ
気
Suffix
1. seeming; giving the appearance of; giving one the feeling of

>>141662743
Why don't you try reading it and find out?

>>141663053
I'm not at the point where I can read anything yet. I'm still making my way through grammar.

>>141663123
Try reading anyway. I merely skimmed half of the pages of Tae Kim before I started to read.

>>141663116
If memory serves, that's a trap, isn't it?

>>141663166
is that a problem?

>>141663388
How do you think I knew it was a trap?

ごきげんよう

わたくしはうんこやりたいのですわ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjX-llqq2bA

今日は暖かく最高気温も20℃以上と暖かいので
what is the function of the と before 暖かい

is it a quoting particle?

>>141662041
Makes sense anon. thanks.

What does つい mean in 気持ちよくてつい?

>>141664171
More context would help, but つい can mean unintentionally. So he/she did something because it felt good, but maybe it wasn't such a good idea.

>>141663116
>>141662409
>>141662370
>>141662336
>>141662296
>>141662251
>>141662225
>>141662101
>>141662071
>>141662028
>>141661956
>>141661918
Just make an imgur gallery for them next time, or something.

Is there a difference in meaning between 右上 and 右の上?

They both mean upper-right, right?

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>>141664012
>>141664171
>>141664309

How can I learn Japanese overnight?

嫌中憎韓

>>141664588
嫌韓

>>141664578
You can't, just pretend you have though, like everyone else on DJT

>>141664578
Go to Mercury, one day lasts 2 Earth months there. If you study 24/7, you might get to intermediate level in that time.

>>141664524
Nothing in the guide leads to an answer to my question though

眼球舐め

>>141661452
Please respond.

>>141664670
no i know dude i mean i dont know the answer to your questions but i know the answers to these questions i dont know the answers to are not in the guide

邯鄲の歩み

轍鮒

仏倒し

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>>141664666
>study one day (overnight)
>for 24/7

>>141665023
1 Mercury day overnight, 24/7 Earth days

蛙の面に小便

How the hell am I supposed to play VNs when the Jap OCR programs are so fucking garbage?

>>141665136
Have you never heard of text hookers?

プリン頭

朝マラの立たぬ男に金貸すな

>>141665280
Cute.

略啓

畑水練

狆がくしゃみをしたよう

hope you are mining all of this #rare vocab

Fucking leeches, I must have gotten a record number of them today.

>>141665906
>you don't need to learn kanji, they said

>>141666033
It's only a few kanji words that fuck me up. It's mostly kana words. Though I guess I should learn the kanji so I can make more connections with those kanji that I do fuck up.

Do I really need grammar?
I did RTK and core6k, and I can easily read VNs by pretty much ignoring the hiragana parts and only focusing on word roots which are in kanji. It's pretty obvious what the sentences are supposed to mean.

>core6k
>get to robot
>autotune out of fucking nowhere

>>141666257
>あの子は許させないかと聞っている
>あの子は許されないと聞かせる
You will run into a lot of trouble if you can't tell the difference between things like this.

Anyway, here's your (you).

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>>141666257
>Do I really need grammar?

>>141666564
*許せない

>>141666564
The difference is slight, the point that it's unforgivable comes across (at the very least I know negative form). Missing some nuances is less important than the enjoyment from fast reading speed that you can only really achieve by glancing through the sentence looking at kanji.

>>141666564
what are those sentences saying?

Any polyglots here?

>>141666564
確かにそうですよね

>>141666812
me

>>141666859
What else do you speak?

>>141666812
I already know Spanish, so if I learn Japanese I'll know three languages.

>>141666757
Vaguely:
>The kid is asking whether (someone) can give them permission
And
>The kid tells (me) that they don't have permission

>>141666727
They're not about something being unforgivable at all.

Skimmed the doc and i didn't find anything regarding this topic.

If i learn japanese, Will Japanese music sound / be weird to me?

>>141666876
i sort of just wanted to just reply "me" and have that be the extent of the conversation

>>141666926
no theres definitely something unforgivable about your post

>>141666812
Me

>>141666984
It's quite fun when you start to understand lines from your old favorite songs.
Of course most of them are just as incoherent as western lyrics, but that never really bothered me. If you can deal with cheesy anime dialogue, you can deal with lyrics.

>>141666926
>blind leading the blind

>>141666984
Why would it be weird?
If anything I've been able to enjoy it more after learning what I know.

>>141667186
If I've made an error, it would be more helpful if you pointed it out.

>>141667233
ive been making errors for months and no one points them out or even notices them so get used to it

>>141667153
>>141667220
Appreciated, Anons!

>>141667233
no errors, your sentences are kanpeki

>>141667440
賛成ing with これ

>>141667466
arigato! (means thanks)

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How do you rate your Japanese?

>>141667726
0/10

How come they kept を and didn't merge it into お already like they did with ゐ　and ゑ?

>>141667726
2/10

I can understand basic sentences with the help of Rikaisama for words I don't know, but anything with intermediate/advanced grammar will most likely fuck me up.

>>141667852
Could be for etymological reasons. Could be to avoid confusion with the お polite prefix.

Also, を is still pronounced as "wo" very commonly in music. I seem to remember hearing that certain parts of Japan still say it as "wo" too.

>>141667852
Would be even worse than は, considering a lot of words can be prefixed with a politeness お.

>>141667726
What does "user flair" mean in this context?

>>141667954
Did somebody say を？
https://youtu.be/CqnG97TGDlU

>>141668032
The short text some of them have behind their usernames.

>>141667726
6/9

This new OP is garbage.

Include something recognizable next time. Faggot.

>>141668932
Just type /a/djt in the address bar, this thread is going to be the only thing that comes up anyway.

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studying kanji all day makes me feel like I'm a retard.

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>>141669181
I feel the same whenever I get a card automatically suspended.

>>141669181
its not just a feeling its actually the reality

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>>141667726
2/10
worse than a natives engrish, ill bet

>>141668932
/djt/i;highlight;

>Missing some nuances is less important than the enjoyment from fast reading speed that you can only really achieve by glancing through the sentence looking at kanji.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

>>141668932
>implying it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb in the catalog

>>141667852
Particles like は, を, or へ were written more often since they were essential to grammar. Spelling in Japanese was at one point determined by however the writer thought that whatever they were writing sounded like. Since ゐ and ゑ weren't as frequent, they got phased out when spelling become standardized. The pronunciations of those particles may have changed a bit, but they still remain the same in order to be able to connect modern Japanese with older Japanese.

I have seen とにかく a million times at this point and I still don't really know what it means.

>>141669916
anyhow

>>141669942
Oh look, a new namefag memester is born.　Thankfully history teaches that you people tend to get bored and give up quickly.

>>141669649
>implying normals even know the difference between kana and kanji

>>141670068
I quickly read this sentence but I don't understand why did you say kana and kana twice? I googled "kana and kana" but only found lesbian JAV porn. Why do normals know of this?

>>141670101
look, a hero

Where can I find a DCT?

ぼくのなつやすみ is hard as fuck, the characters talk way too fucking fast.

>>141670235
The same place you bought your bitlaser. You have one, right?

219 食べ物 たべもの
221 飲み物 のみもの

795 買い物 かいもの
796 キャンプ キャンプ
797 荷物 にもつ
798 品物 しなもの
799 見物 けんぶつ
800 物 もの

i+1
+
1

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この画像から分かる「矛盾」を答えよ。

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おはようおにいちゃん

ひやしちゅうかつくりすぎちゃったの

べつにおにいちゃんのためにつくったんじゃないんだからね

>>141671211
両方のサムネイルに同じ外人がいるだろう。
てかそれが確実に矛盾だと言い切れない。何せビーガンじゃなくてもビーガンラーメンを楽しめるじゃない。

>>141671650
妹ちゃんのかわいいおまんこしか食べたくないんですけどね。

>>141667852
They DID merge most of them. Lots of を used to be literally in the middle of words just like any other kana. They only kept the を kana for the particle, where it makes it much easier to read because having distinct particles is a good thing.

>that feel when you really want to finish the VN you're reading because you just downloaded a different VN that you're looking forward to reading

>>141672811
It's too bad people aren't able to read more than one thing at a time.

なんかあったら守ってあげるから…
すぐ言いなよ

I don't think I've ever seen 言いな before, is this something I just missed when I was learning grammar? It's a contraction of 言いなさい right? Why am I still coming across shit like this, I should have started reading sooner.

>>141657977
Never read this post to the end until now because it really seemed like shitposting. What's 'bad' in your opinion about 'real Japanese'? I think it's really good for reading. Of course some readings (for example the first, 神様) are different from most Manga or VN but, learning to read classic literature is also a step to fluency.

>>141673031
There's tons of stuff that isn't listed explicitly in guides because if you have a bit of experience with the language you can figure it out easily like you did here

>>141673036
The point is not to tell you to avoid certain types of Japanese. It is that all Japanese is real Japanese, but calling some Japanese "real Japanese" implies that other Japanese is not real.

>>141673036
>f course some readings (for example the first, 神様) are different from most Manga or VN
Also what the fuck are you talking about here

>>141673036
You are thinking of "Read Real Japanese" which is a good book. The shitposter likes to say stuff like "lol, why are you reading VNs/manga/anime instead of real Japanese?"

>>141673107
>It is that all Japanese is real Japanese, but calling some Japanese "real Japanese" implies that other Japanese is not real.
>>141673120
>Also what the fuck are you talking about here

https://www.amazon.co.jp/Read-Real-Japanese-Fiction-Contemporary/dp/1568365292?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

I'm talking about the books which are called 'read real Japanese'. I think last year in November (?) we talked a bit about them in one thread and some anons started to shitpost about them. I assumed his post is about this.
>>141673262
ah ok

>>141673275
How difficult are those books? I like the idea of a compilation of short stories since there's probably no way I can muster a novel yet.

>>141673540
>no way I can muster a novel yet
A lot of non-core vocab and a lot of not often used Kanji. I asked some Japanese friends (University students) and even they didn't know some words or meanings. So it's probably above High school level I guess (?). It's good for mining doe since they explain grammar points. But a lot of the vocab is redundant. I think in the guide is one of the books, and when you google a bit you find the another book as well. They are worth buying I think because you get a CD and can listen to the stories as well.

>>141673031
Tae Kim discusses this it's an imperative form -> masu stem + な。

言う->言いな
する->しな
etc

Why do people call it the "masu stem"? There's no other stem, right?

>>141673540
Too much new vocab for me. I might eventually make an Anki deck, learn the vocab, then read through it. The grammar notes are really nice. I gave up after 2.5 stories, but someday I am going to finish it.

>>141673619
You can pirate the audio. I bought it but I still listen to the pirated audio anyway. With all the flipping back and forth for vocab lookups and the notes in the back, the book is much easier to use than a PDF.

Can 減らす be used to specify a decrease to a specific amount or is it just in general? like can it be used to say "the number decreased to 13", or is there another word for that?

他人の価値観なんて私は知らないの
逃げるなんて許さないわ

How does 「なんて」 work in this kind of context?

>>141673855
>You can pirate the audio. I bought it but I still listen to the pirated audio anyway. With all the flipping back and forth for vocab lookups and the notes in the back, the book is much easier to use than a PDF.
Oh you right, I just remembered. I also found the Audio in the guide I think and the book is a bit annoying that's true.
>>141673951
It's like は basically. It's mean things like ~
People often say this

If I can read most things come across can I say i'm fluent?

Including stuff like blogs, news and stuff.

I might not know a trapezoid or some odd odd uncommon words.

靴の下の部分って何って言うの?

Can I take out a って？
靴の下の部分が何って言うの?
is this fine?

>>141674015
Can you speak fluently? No? Then you are not fluent

Hey /a/, what reasons do you think for which a Japanese learner cannot comprehend a sentence? Is it the sentence structure/syntax? Or because he fails to address the subject or other components of the sentence (which are often dropped from the sentence). And sometimes all elements are clear but the reader just can't connect their meanings logically (which I'm not sure if it's because the reader is a plain retard or being unfamiliar with the language). Is there more? Do you have any suggestion to those problems, /a/? Do you have any tips for faster, better reading comprehension? I want to approach this in a analytical way.

>>141674098
what... it's either the grammar/syntax or you don't know the vocabulary. there is literally nothing else.

>>141674098
You can't learn Japanese, give up.

>>141674098
post of someone too lazy to study looking for shortcuts, fucking kill yourself

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>>141674076
靴の下の部分の名前を聞きたいなら上だよ

>>141673951
It's more or less a filler word here like なんか. It doesn't have a meaning that can be pinned down but it's used pretty much all the time so you'll pick it up quick if you watch cartoons.

逃げるのは許さない
逃げるなんて許さない
These two sentences mean the exact same thing. However, the second one adds a feeling of exasperation, and sounds a little less formal.

Reminder that if you do fewer than 100 new cards a day you cannot and will never learn Japanese.

>>141674150
いもうとは全く英語わかってないなー

>>141674098
they havent made a pilgrimage to tokyo yet

>>141674246
reminder youre a fuckin lamer shut up lol

>>141674246
Yup 100 new cards and 100 reviews of old cards each day is the best setup for learning

>>141674150
いいえ、僕は「って」を「が」に変えても。

この文はもう正しいか？それても変化のせいで違いになったか？　と僕の質問つもりだった

>>141674223
>>141673985
that makes sense, thank you

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just ordered a feast in japanese terms, struggling to gain weight, but this was too good a deal
3 large delivered for 1910円

You guys wanna shitpost on /int/ we're talking about 射精 and its applications

>>141673817

Because it is what remains after ます has been removed from its conjugation.

It is properly called the 連用形. I really wish *formal* Japanese grammar would be more commonly taught from an intermediate level, along with the right terminology so everyone is on the same page. Before I got a good grounding in Classical grammar, I would frequently encounter expressions, forms, and particle usages that just didn't seem to make any sense. That almost never happens anymore, excepting certain obscure idioms.

>>141673915

Just use に or まで to specify the value to which something decreases. Your problem here is your example sentence requires an intransitive verb, so instead of 減らす, you need 減る. Watch your transitivity, bro.

>>141674621
yeah i know just used a general example

My true retention is 70% today instead of the usual 80%. Anki is depressing sometimes.

Thanks for the guide. KanjiDamage seems really great.

But what he says, that the teaching method of Japanese in Japan is hard but understandable since you gotta know the most used words first s you're growing, but then the gaijin teachers copied that way to teach Jap to gaijins, well all this thing.

Can I believe him on that? That seems incredibly dumb; but his method seems simpler, except that you start by less useful kanji because they are components of more useful ones that come later. That seems logical, simpler forms like in drawing.

What's your thoughts on his thing?

>>141674796
It's a meme, don't fall for it. Just do the core2k/6k deck, you'll pick up kanji naturally there and be able to actually read something afterwards.

>>141674820
That's a meme too

>>141674796
please dont waste your time on that shit, and just do the core2k/6k/10k

>>141674820
What is a meme?

But shouldn't I proceed by steps? I should like, read the kanji pages then memorize them, before going into the flashcards right? Sorry if my question seem dumb but I'm not used to memorize things that way, even if that proved efficient when I learned vocab without kanji recently.

>>141674839
My stats say otherwise.

>>141674871
you're stats a shit

>>141674870
The thing is that lone kanji study only really teaches you one English meaning and no readings. When you start vocab you will notice this is nigh useless, since some combinations of them make a completely different word than you'd expect. Anki decks hammer multiple meanings into your brain while also teaching you the different readings.

The "steps" is just starting vocab+grammar and after acquiring a decent amount to start reading stuff on the side for exposure, which is pretty much always the best way to pick up a language.

>>141674964
Ok thanks for your answer!

>>141674796

Gah. KanjiDamage is absolute shit. A year or two ago, I wrote an multi-page article explaining not only everything he got wrong, but also why it was wrong, and the harm-inefficacy that woukd result from his method. I'm sad to see that idiot still around.

If I can find the doc I wrote in my backups, I'll post it, of course, but stay far, far away from KD. Use RTK by Heisig instead. It isn't perfect, but it's much better than KD, please believe me on this.

>>141675012
>>141675012
I haven't checked Heisig's RTK yet, I'll see what it is.

>>141675012
jesus christ don't waste time on either of this shit. if you do core2k/6k you will be able to read actual shit months earlier than if you waste time on rtk

>>141674964

You've actually just explained why learning multiple readings and meanings at the same time for a given kanji is a *terrible* idea. The mind simply doesn't handle that much info at the same time well.

Once you have a 1) keyword and a 2) grapheme, you can then take your sweet time in hanging as many additional meanings on it as you like. Think of it as laying a good, stable, but basic foundation atop which everything else can be safely built.

This is particularly true of Japanese orthography. If this were Chinese, each character would generally have *one* and only one reading, so memorising the grapheme and its single reading would make sense. But to take one kanji, for exsmple: 生, how many completely different readings does it have? Just off the top of my head: なま、き、セイ、ショウ、はやー、いきー、いけー、いかー、おう、うむ、and that doesn't even include the 表外読み.

>>141675128

RTK requires a greater *initial* investment of time, that is true, but in the long run, the better understanding of the characters meanings and the more stable foundation it provides will massively aid future vocabulary acquisition and retention.

It's the difference between doing a one-off calculation with a pencil and paper, and getting up, going to your computer and whipping up a spreadsheet. The latter takes more time at first, but the long-term time savings are cumulative.

Go check out the second volume of RTK. You should very quickly be able to see how a bit of structured complexity can provide an immense benefit over brute force.

>>141674964
You underestimate the effect of being able to recognize kanji on sight and having a meaning to attribute to them prior to knowing specific words. I can say from experience that it became significantly easier to remember word meanings and pronunciations after studying kanji like that for a while. Also, given something with furigana, there's a huge amount of vocab that you gain access to without needing to use a dictionary for the most part.

A good idea is to get a kanji deck that has up to a couple dozen or so examples of common words that use each kanji and what they mean. That way you can obtain some amount of understanding past just the English keyword, and have something to work off of when you jump into memorizing vocab.

Vocab decks do not really work the way you say they do in my experience. It could be that there are people utilizing them better than I was, but I found core2k particularly to be completely useless when it came to narrowing down kanji meanings and readings. That information only catches on through significant exposure to words that use overlapping kanji, which isn't going to happen for beginners who add 20 new cards a day. Core2k also throws in several fairly complex kanji early on along with words that you are guaranteed not to find in something like Yotsubato.

And it goes without saying that if you want to be able to write, you should definitely study kanji.

>>141675135
That's the thing, you aren't learning only the kanji. You focus on the vocab, and you just get the kanji by context. Your mind doesn't have to handle "much info", when it sees 屋 in three different vocabs relating to shops then it becomes pretty clear what it is. And I don't think core ever throws you more than 2~ different readings at a time, which is I find the sweet spot. I've perfectly memorized that 見 is 'mi', but also 'ken' when combined with 学 or 物.

>>141675311

Yeah, this. The key word here is "study" and not "drill".

It's very gratifying to encounter a kanji compound you've never seen before, and yet still know its meaning and pronunciation without needing to touch a dictionary.

>>141675222
>>141675311
Can I ask how long you've been studying and what you're reading at the moment?

Because from what I've seen here everyone who studies using kanji takes significantly longer to get to the stage of reading competently without relying on lookups than I did.

>>141675391

That certainly does happen eventually, but first learning keywords in one's native language hugely accelerates the ability to do so.

I tried the context/drilling method, and it was inefficient and painful. There are much better, faster, and more efficient ways.

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>>141674724
i know that feel... might was trash today as well

If I learn Japanese will I also be able to kind of sort of read Chinese since most of the characters will be the same with similar meanings? Or is it completely different?

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>>141675469
mine*
worst ive done in quite a while, construction on a nearby childcare center starts at fucken 5am

>>141675439
It 'accelerates' it because you prepared for it 3+ months. If you just studied normally in that time it'd be no problem at all.

>>141660921
Not that guy you are reply to but, I would think that it would be far more natural to say:
The more fun it becomes.

But either way works really.

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>>141675421

RTK pimp responding here. Several years, but there were long periods when I didn't touch a book.

This is what I'm reading now. I love propaganda.

>>141675495

It took about a month and a half to finish the first volume, then about another to drill the 音読み from the second, after which I was able to recognise, understand and pronounce any chinese compound. And this is to say nothing of the immense benefit to retention.

At the point, I need to deliberately avoid using many characters, because my colleagues largely don't know them and I don't wish to make them look bad.

In Windows 10 is there an easier way to type in katakana besides to alt+caps and cycle through the various input modes to it (and then cycle out when I'm done)? I've heard people say you can just push caps lock to temporarily input in katakana but it's never worked for me.

Also, is there a way for it to default to hiragana input when I switch over to the Japanese IME rather than defaulting to the Latin alphabet and having to shift+caps once to switch over to hiragana? It's not exactly hard to do so once and the act has become somewhat ingrained in me now when I switch to Japanese input anyway, but the fact is that it's pretty pointless since if I wanted to type with that alphabet I wouldn't be using the Japanese IME in the first place, so there's really no reason for it to default to that.

>>141675472
Yes and no.

You will be learning Japanese simplified, which has a lot in common with trad Chinese, but there are still hundreds of chars which were simplified in different ways. A good example: 龍、竜、龙. Trad, simpJ and simpC, respectively.

Chinese grammar is easier than that of Jap, but very different. On the plus side, the basic sentence structure is largely the same as it is in English.

tl;dr, no, but it will give you a good foundation to learn if you wish to do so.

>>141675601

>Windows 10

Why do you hate yourself?

>>141675601
You can change the keys dude.

>>141675635
Where do I do that?
>>141675631
I avoided it for a while but eventually decided to just use it so I don't get fucked over if they start locking a lot of games to DX12 or something. Dolphin apparently added some DX12 performance boosts already which was a big reason for me to upgrade since I use that emulator a lot.

>>141675391
>Your mind doesn't have to handle "much info", when it sees 屋 in three different vocabs relating to shops then it becomes pretty clear what it is.

You mean, I shouldn't associate kanji with a "word" meaning but with a "mental image" meaning? Like... when you learn your first language as a baby I guess, since you have no language of comparison?

>>141675660
Oh ドンマイ I found the options for it.

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>>141675421
Here are the stats from my kanji deck. This plus reading Tae Kim at the beginning probably amounts to six months of what you could call "studying." Granted I'm lazy and mostly watched cartoons with subtitles, didn't really open anything to read until maybe a week ago.

This deck was originally a recall/recognition deck that I had set to add 30 new cards; after seeing around a couple thousand kanji I deleted the recall cards and set new cards to 0. On average I probably did 70-80 minutes of Anki a day during the period I used this deck and really nothing else.

Since that period ended a few days ago like I said, the most I've gotten through right now is a volume of Yotsuba and a couple chapters out of some slightly harder manga. I don't know if I set a good example because I pretty much put off acquiring any real vocab for half a year on purpose.

>>141675671

Mental images are much harder to reliably distiguish. Keywords hold a huge advantage over them for that reason. Consider: 者 and 人both mean "person", while 場 and 所 both mean "place". If you assign separate synonyms like "person" and "invididual", or "place" and "location", you'll never get them confused.

How can you do that with mental pictures? How can you do that with abstract concepts? You can't.

>>141675727
I get it. Thanks.

What happened to that one anon that asked about everyone's sleep and anki schedule recently? Was it actually Zuckerberg stealing our data again?

>>141675763

Cheers.

Imma go eat a bento in the park with my wife under the azaleas, but I'll be back in a bit to chat if this thread or its successor is around.

>>141675877
That was like 4 hours ago anon you've got to give him some time

How is 日 read here?

忙しい日

>>141675974
ひ

>>141675989
ども

>>141675974
And here?

新しい日の誕生

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なるべく諦めない！
なせば大抵なんとかなる！

Time spent shitposting is time spent not studying. If you're about to engage in a silly argument or off-topic discussion, close the thread instead. Use your time productively!

Persistence is the key to success. You CAN learn Japanese!

>>141676100
Shut up loser.

Normally, bottom-up processing is used for identifying novel objects; but, once we recall prior knowledge, top-down processing is used. This explains why people are good at identifying familiar objects rather than unfamiliar.

>>141676100
the key to success is being effective not persistent

>>141676046
that is also ひ

though it seems to be a song title so it could be fucking 新(あらた）しい日（にち）の誕生（ばーす） for all I know

日本語は難しい。。。

How can adults use 僕 if 僕だ is a way of identifying little kids?

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>>141676136
しかし。。。

僕は猫であるうううう
わんわんわん

>>141676180
its pretty normal to use it whenever you're talking to a superior

also rich people use it

>>141675012
>A year or two ago, I wrote an multi-page article explaining not only everything he got wrong, but also why it was wrong, and the harm-inefficacy that woukd result from his method.
A lot of us are aware of your autism.

>>141675727
lol this level of thinking is so low i couldn't even understand what the fuck you were trying to convey for a minute.

you have intelligence lower than a nigger child

>>141676350
The sad part is that instead of actually making any actual arguments about the method, he resorted to just bitching about mistakes in the introduction.

Defamation of character doesn't mean anything. Hitler was retarded for invading Russia, but that doesn't mean his policy of murdering jews was wrong.

>>141675941
good pic. But is はず supposed to have that connotation with it?

>>141676384
>Defamation of character doesn't mean anything. Hitler was retarded for invading Russia, but that doesn't mean his policy of murdering jews was wrong.
murdering the jews is LITERALLY the only thing he did wrong

>>141675727
>How can you do that with mental pictures? How can you do that with abstract concepts?

because if your iq is above 20 you will realize their specific uses after seeing it in different words

>>141676136
日本語を習うのは難しいねぇ～

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>>141676401
そんなはずがある

>>141676136
>>141676190
>。。。
何のつもり？・・・を使えよ、獣。

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>>141676384
>but that doesn't mean his policy of murdering jews was wrong.

theres barely any left right, they're basically indians at this point
and i mean feathers not dots

>>141676461
そうですね。。。

>>141676470
人殺し！

>>141676124
I didn't make it up. It was just my favorite saying 8 months ago when I used to study Japanese back then so I'm posting it now for you guys.

>>141676461
はい、これ：…

>>141676488
rock on dude

>>141676529
ちげえよ
「・・・」だよ、この糞外人

>>141676488
gas yourself いつでも

>>141676124
same goes for date rape

>>141676575
Why would you want to rape a fruit not only are they expensive but sticky as fuck.

>>141676594
Where are you from if you think fruit are expensive?

>>141676384

I found, explained and corrected a few *dozen*, major mistakes in the intro *alone*. Are you seriously going to take seriously a biology prof who spends the first class talking about humours and demons as if they actually existed, even if all his formulas still work out?

Oh, and there were numerous outright wrong things in his main work, too. Not small things, either. I just figured that taking apart the intro alone would make the point. I was wrong about that, apparently.

>>141676571
「・」は言葉を離す用記号だけどなー
これもあるし：‥

>>141675941
What is it supposed to convey with よう and つもり?

What are the best visual novel to read for a beginner?

>>141677129
Yes.

>>141677129
The one you want to read. If you are constantly blown the fuck out then you need to study more.

>>141677129
ever17

>>141677129
Albatross

>>141677121
「よう」の奴が具体的なものを見ている
「つもり」の奴がつもりを考えている

>>141677129
Hanahira.

>>141677213
What about this one? This one looks fun. https://vndb.org/v683

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>>141677032
…

っていう「さんてんりーだー」とか「さんてんりーだ」っていう
とくしゅもじもあるよ。おにいちゃん

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>>141677330
I mean it's on this list, it must be good.

>>141677343
それは >>141676529 これと一緒じゃないの

>>141677413
That's a pretty good list, but I thought subahibi wasn't for beginners though.

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>>141677413
Every time.

>>141677413
every time
>>141677523
it's a pretty bad list, both no quality control and no difficulty control

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>>141675601
>In Windows 10

>>141675601
just press f7
next time read the documentation

>>141677800
But having to go reach my hand up to f7 in the middle of typing is hella inconvenient.. Isn't there something closer?

>>141677865
making it learn the words you want to type

>>141677865
type the word in hiragana and press space?

>>141677614
>>141677559
A couple weeks ago some anons made new lists that are actually accurate, anyone saved any of them?

Is there a consensus for RTK on

- Kanji on the front or back for recognition purposes (no interest in writing)?
- Learn at least one reading for the kanji, or none at all?

>>141678292
do RTK as fast as possible, which means production format and no readings.

>>141678292
There isn't a consensus on anything, ever.

That said anything but
- Kanji on the back
- No readings, only keywords isn't RTK at all.

RTK was meant to be done quickly in the way heisig intended so you can get on with actually learning japanese. If you start piling all kinds of additional information on it, or even worde, try to form some kind of useless cnnection from Kanji-->Heisig-Keyword then you might as well not bother with that method.

The method works for what it's trying to do (teaching you how to remember and write the kanji), but people trying to use it for something else (learning japanese) and failing because it wasn't meant to do that, is why so many people are angry about RTK.

>>141678292

There's no consensus about anything here, but my take was, is, and will always be that even if you have no interest in writing, practicing it anyway is extremely useful as it exploits muscle memory to aid retention.

Regarding readings, separating the readings from the meaning has the advantage of only requiring the acquisition of one piece of information at a time. In other words, you already know the word "person" on a nearly instinctual level as a native speaker of English, so associating that word with 人 requires only one additional datum: the grapheme 人 itself.

Once those two things are firmly cemented in your memory, associating additional information -- the readings -- is far easier.

The short answer is no, don't bother drilling readings until you can reliably derive 人 from "person", and "person" from 人. Use the anchors that already exist in your native tongue.

>>141678404

The people who find themselves annoyed with RTK are almost always those who made it 50~80% through the first volume, then quit in disgust because the keyword:grapheme pairs don't immediately help one read Japanese at all. It could very easily seem like a complete waste.

...Until you get a look at the second volume (the very existence of which few people are even aware), when everything becomes clear and all the on'yo-mi all start rapidly falling into place. From that point, it's all downhill.

Until then, however, it certainly does seem a lot like Daniel-san washing Mr. Miyagi's car like a little bitch, and just as useless.

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>>141678382
>>141678404
>>141678458
I don't really get the "production" format, but if you guys are saying that's better than kanji on the front...

Which of these two is the better one?

>>141678554
What's the second volume about and how long is it? I heard most people say to just complete the first to get a better grasp on vocab.

>>141678582
I'd rather not do RTK at all, but you're supposed to do it as fast as all, effectiveness be damned. Production cards are less effective for *learning* than recognition cards because they don't make your brain do active recall, but they're much easier than recognition cards, thus you can use many more of them and do them for less time.

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>>141678582

My physical copy, which appears to be a first edition, fifth printing from 1990 is just under 400 pages.

Here's a pic.

Note what he's doing here: all the jouyou characters that contain 肖 have ショウ as their on'yo-mi, *except* for 削, which is サク. This is just one trick he uses to significantly shorten the length of time necessary to learn the otherwise pretty fucking intractable Chinese readings.

>>141678582

>What's the second volume about and how long is it? I heard most people say to just complete the first to get a better grasp on vocab.

I should also note again that the first volume does not teach any readings or Japanese vocabulary at all. None. This is a deliberate choice and done for the very good reasons explained in my other posts.

The pic of volume 2 I posted should clarify exactly how it comes together later.

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>tfw not retarded so I can learn vocab easily without having to waste time on kanji study

>>141678811
>learn that 怪 is カイ
>怪訝
>け・げん
And this is why trying to learn readings on their own is retarded.

>>141679057
that face does look kind of retarded though

>>141679075

It's pronounced as カイ in almost every single compound in which it occurs, which is dozens, except for this one, and 怪我 and perhaps one or two more.

So, with my method, when encountering 怪 in an unknown compound, I'll try to read it as カイ and be right 99% of the time.

And you think that useless? Have you never heard the saying: "Work smarter, not harder."?