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I don't get the tactics used in the Grail War, any of them.

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I don't get the tactics used in the Grail War, any of them.

Why can't you just observe and hide for the whole battle then come out to fight the last one instead of constantly throwing your servants in fruitless fights, wasting all that prana and risking the identity reveal?
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>>119852450
Two week time-limit, sure you could hide the entire time and never fight, but people are rushed to fight exactly because their wish will become nothing if they simply just wait to "Fight the last guy standing". You get one shot at a miracle. If you play pussy the entire time then it will leave you behind.
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>>119852450
It's been specified that you need to prove yourself worthy to the grail

I think they said in the VN that even if you do survive by hiding the grail may still not appear
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>>119852737
Kotomine says it, that he was an unworthy master who touched the grail at the end of the last war, and it denied him.

Though he played up certain aspects of his story, saying he played coward the entire time.
>>
What kind of pussy are you, OP? Come out and fight me like a man. Are you too afraid that your shitty assassin class Servant is going to get his shit wrecked?
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>>119852776
>saying he played coward the entire time.
Well he pretty much did nothing but sit in the church
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>>119852776
Denied him, or was it that nobody expected the Grail to be a pile of mud?
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>>119852787
I just want to be comfy with my Assassin, that's all, why does everyone have to kill each other?
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>>119852450
>Why can't you just observe and hide for the whole battle then come out to fight the last one instead of constantly throwing your servants in fruitless fights, wasting all that prana and risking the identity reveal?

Because if everyone does that then the Grail will never materialize and it may takes decades for the war to end.

Beyond that, there's some other stuff:

1) If the Grail deems you unworthy for any reason you don't get a wish, cowards are fucked in this scenario.

2) By hiding the entire time you are on the defensive the entire time, it becomes a matter of when your opponent attacks YOU instead of when you attack THEM. If they gain recon on you because you're staying passive and pick the battle when they want to - or form an alliance to get at you - then homefield advantage means jackshit.

3) Mages are intensely prideful and desperate for the Grail, they will wade into Hell to get it right up until the moment where their pride breaks and they realize they're about to lose.


>>119852832
The true Grail never even appeared for his war, it was the lesser vessel that we saw.
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>>119852849
Because Edwin Starr was wrong. Now get out here and get your ass kicked.
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>>119852450
Because the last guy is usually broken as fuck and your servant will never be able to 1v1 him, plus he'll come right at you because you're the only one remaining. You need strategy and shit to kill the strong guys or else they'll win for sure using raw power, and that usually involves making alliances and taking advantage of fights that come up between the other servants, scouting and learning about your oponents weaknesses, etc.
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>>119852865
What if you were the only one just scouting everyone, all day?

I mean, in no single Fate story we get a Master that uses Assassin, like well, an assassin.
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>>119852936
>What if you were the only one just scouting everyone, all day?

You gain lots of juicy info and get to pick your target and time while they know jackshit about you, drastically increasing the chances you kill them.
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>>119852865
>, it was the lesser vessel that we saw.

The lesser grail is the only one they're ever supposed to see. The greater ritual isn't supposed to come up from the ground and talk to them personally.

The lesser grail is the envoy of the human world, the one masters and servants will interact with if they ever see the grail. No one is supposed to know about the greater grail, it's like the backup harddrive that keeps the ritual going and keeps it strong. It isn't the one you go up to in order to make your wish, no master aside from the three families is supposed to even know about it. Not because "Well only the three families can get the wish", rather the lesser grail is the one that will grant you your wish as it's the bubble on the surface that you interact with, rather than ever having to see the machinery behind the curtain.

For all facts and reasons the true grail any master should ever know or care about is the lesser holy grail. You should only know about the Greater Grail if you want to shut down the ritual, or steal the grail at its core. It's not the part any master should be interacting with. It's the hard-drive that keeps shit running, it's not the operating system and monitor.
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>>119853020
Kirei's Hundred Faced Hassan would be such a good servant, providing you were powerful in support magic.
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>>119852849

The thing that weirded me out about Fate/Stay Night was how seemingly passive everyone was. No-one was really fighting seriously, and they just had too many slice-of-life shenigans. Like, everyone knew who everyone else was!

You'd think that having your identity exposed would mean instant death, because everyone would be on you like hyenas on a bleeding slab of meat. (Unless you're so powerful, you're like "Come get me, fuckers. I'll be your huckleberry.)

I'll say that Fate/Zero was slightly more like what I expected, but I thought that realizing "Hey! The Master of Saber is that guy!" means "C'mon, Assassin. Get the samurai-ghost-man army together. Tonight we break into his house and fuck his mother."

Holing up in one place and hiding just gives people even more reason to winkle you out of your stronghold, or call down a magical orbital strike or something. I mean, Saber's Noble Phantasm is a giant laser sword. Gilgamesh likely has ancient Babylonian nuclear bombs. Rider has his army to hold you down and assrape you with.
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>>119853164
Not just hiding in one place.
Make sure no one even notices that you're a Master, when Servants are fighting, scout it out without revealing yourself.

At the end, when there's one servant left wondering why the Grail isn't appearing yet, you appear like a badly written plot device declaring that you're actually the 7th Master, and you know everything you need to know about the enemy.
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>>119853269

I'm more surprised that - at least in Fate - people very rarely targeted the Master. You'd think that the solution would be:

> "Okay, I shot the Master! Now let's run the fuck away and wait for Berserker to vanish."

The War was, in general, a lot less vicious than I expected it to be. Like, I was thinking magical Battle Royale, but only Zero came close. And even Zero had some strange moments like Tokimi going: "Hey, you're the Master of Berserker? It's cool, I'm going to let you crawl away instead of hitting you with a few more fireballs. I mean, it's not like I could finish the job right now and rack up one kill or anything."

It felt like Kiritsugu was literally the only character playing to win. Waver, for instance, was just 'there'. You'd think that the sane solution would be to murder anyone who was obviously suspicious, and declare 'em collateral damage. Or if your Servant is the honorable type, let him do the face-bashing while you find the other Magus and murder him.
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>>119853164
>The thing that weirded me out about Fate/Stay Night was how seemingly passive everyone was. No-one was really fighting seriously,

How did you miss that point so thoroughly? You missed that no one actually wanted the grail in the fifth war(aside from Caster), and missed that this was something intentional in the story. Rin didn't have a wish, Kotomine didn't, Shinji didn't, Sakura didn't, Shirou just wanted to make sure no one evil used it, etc etc.

Of course they were passive in a way, and this was something on purpose in regards to the nature of the contest. The grail war this time around happened fifty years too early, when no one was actually prepared or wanted it. In the fourth war it happened right on schedule when people from different countries were all summoned in to compete. However having it look competent like that, like this is a true ritual of meaning, you'd not be able to see a certain something that slowly reveals itself about the nature of this all like that. The grail war is a lie form the start, this has more than just a bit of meaning as well. Not only is it a backwater ritual that no one has heard about, not only is it not supposed to be about these hyper competent sorts that are in it to decide the fate of mankind despite the stakes actually being a bit high, but the ritual from the start is not supposed to be what you expected in the format of some straight-forward war and be everything it claimed to be from the start.

The meaning was backwards from the start, it was never something straight-forward or like you thought it was at first, it was all backwards.
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>>119853399

I'm just wondering how these incredibly passive people were tasked to fight to the death for a mega-artifact, especially after how the last War attracted so many deadly magicians.

Like, you're literally fighting children here. A single Magus could kill them all in their beds. Did the Association just...give up or something?
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>>119853454
Well Bazett got BTFO'd by Kotomine, but let's not talk about that.

>>119853397
Kiritsugu could've killed both Waver and El Melloi on that first night. But he didn't.
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>>119853454
The association sent Bazett. Spoilers: it didn't work out too well.
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>>119853454
The Assosiation sent Bazett, and Kotomine killed her because he didn't want any outsiders involved among other things. That was the end of that mess.

These passive people weren't "Sent" to deal with this shit, they were just the closest people nearby, so the grail just picked them and got them in the contest. They were super special anythings that were chosen, they were just the ones that were there.

The Association never had any real stake in the war, the church only has a passing interesting, I meant it when i said this was a backwater ritual in some no-name town that no one actually thinks will work. The most attention the grail war ever received was in the second war, people have all but given up on it at this point aside from the three families.

No one has any real stake in it aside from them at this point, due to their pride that won't let go despite how even if it did work it would only end humanity.
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>>119853524
Didn't he not shoot Kayneth because he was worried about Assassin?
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>>119853454
Most of the characters in the 5th war were more competent than the ones in the 4th if you look at the big picture.
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>>119853454
>Like, you're literally fighting children here. A single Magus could kill them all in their beds.

Despite you not thinking any of the masters in the fifth war impressive. Rin, Kuzuki, Shirou, Sakura, or Caster could kill most any magus alive under different situations. It's not "If a real magus..", rather despite having no interest in the war, the people in the war were mostly diamonds in the rough this time around that could easily be monsters.

Not only was Rin a real magus, but she was literally a better magus than most people in the fourth war combined.
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>>119853454
>A single Magus could kill them all in their beds.
You massively underestimate what servants are able to do.
The "single" Magus wouldn't have a chance to actualy kill anyone
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>>119852450
If you let other servants run amok, they can amass prana from other living beings as soul eaters. Aside from that, the Einzbern Consultation Room teaches that the grail has to judge its wielder to be worthy.
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>>119853540

Actually, that's something I'm wondering about. Does the Grail, in fact, do anything at this point? I know that it's meant to either grant a wish or open a path to the Fourth Magic, but does anyone in fact know that you just get the black mud that fucks everything?

I mean, that seems a pretty obvious sign that something has gone very wrong with your magical ritual. Or were Fate's villains deliberately screwing with the Grail so it always got the world-ending thing every time?
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>>119853587
El Melloi was a fucking idiot too blinded by Magus' pride.

Waver was just... proving a point. He was like Shinji with an even more ridiculous Rider, less personality issues and a brain that actually ticks.

Tokiomi was serious but put too much trust into Kotomine and Archer.

Wormfag got what he deserved.

Kiritsugu was serious about the grail, but sadly, the grail wasn't serious about him.
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>>119853617
Grail still picks the masters itself every war

Zouken, Ilya, Einzebern head, etc all know it was corrupted before the fifth war, but most of them didn't care.

Most people don't know its corrupted, but some do know and still pursue it because they have nothing left besides this.
>>
It was mentioned that other GWs happened elsewhere, yes?

Did all of them fail like Fuyuki's 1-4th wars?
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>>119853617
>Or were Fate's villains deliberately screwing with the Grail so it always got the world-ending thing every time?

They weren't "Specially creating the world-ending effect each time"

All that happened is that a wish was granted in the 3rd war, but it never was completed since the grail broke at the time. The grail at this point is just trying to get enough mana to fulfill the wish now.

The wish was "Become the devil and kill all humans" basically.
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>>119853540
>The most attention the grail war ever received was in the second war, people have all but given up on it at this point aside from the three families.

Except for the third one where there was open war in the streets between the Nazis and Imperial army, with the association moving in to try and clean up the mess as Masters fought publicly for control of the situation.
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>>119853664
I very much doubt that the Einzbern know that they accidently corrupted the grail
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>>119853587
to be fair Kayleth was arrogant as fuck I mean if you're basically a prodigy at magic who has never really been challenged you'd basically never think someone could wreck the shit out of you through underhanded means
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>>119852813
He did plenty of things that he was interested in. The ones that Tokiomi never ordered him to do.

So no, he wasn't just sitting in the church.
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>>119852450
What I don't understand is how can this guy lose the war.

Gae Bolg is literally unstoppable. All he needs is to show up, Gae Bolg another servant, then run away. Come back the next day if his prana was too low, kill another servant, run away, and win the war within a week, if no other servant kills each other.

Who can possibly stop him? Okay, so there are some complications, he would need to kill Berserker several times? And he missed once against Saber, big deal, just come back tomorrow and try again.

I mean, there is no way to avoid dying from Gae Bolg, is there? Just a freak lucky accident saved Saber, and again, it would take multiple kills to take out Berserker. But all the other servants, what can they do? What can Gill do, what can Redman do? They just die.
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>>119853721
>with the association moving in to try and clean up the mess as Masters fought publicly for control of the situation.
What?
Also the nazis only acted in the Apocrypha timeline
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>>119853721
>Except for the third one

>Q: Just how well-known is the Fuyuki Holy Grail War among magi around the world? Is it of major significance, or unexpectedly minor importance, like a secret war that isn’t talked about among magi?
>A: It’s minor. The stakes were highest up until the Second War, before the Church got involved.

>>119853732
They knew, as mentioned in HF route in passing. Although Ilya herself didn't know all the details until she talked to Sakura. She knew however that the grail was basically corrupted, but typically it should maybe not matter as long as she still functions as a grail normally. However when another grail took over that was connected to the greater grail rather than the lesser grail, it became an issue as something started to escape the grail.
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>>119853772
>What I don't understand is how can this guy lose the war.
E rank luck. I don't even have to read the rest.
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>>119853765
He went jogging a lot, there's that.
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>>119853772
Simple Answer:
Kotomine
Long Answer:
Kotomine and he actualy only responded to the summoning because he wanted good fights
Which he didn't get because of Kotomine
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>>119853772
E LUCK
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Most ironic thing about Fastwheels is how he used a freaking gun to kill Risei.

He was so against it during his fight with Kiritsugu and all about that mage pride.
He really hit the bottom didn't he?
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>>119853772
>Gae Bolg is literally unstoppable

It's a luck roll, with scaling damage depending on how high of value your luck is. Your luck can be A rank, but if you roll a 1 you can die easily. Your luck can be E rank, but if you roll a natural 20 then you live.

It's just, the chances of doing either scale depending on your rank. If you have E rank luck, the chance of surviving and getting the right dice roll would be maybe one in a thousand or so. If you have A rank luck, the chances of you dying are maybe one in ten at times, but could be more.

Both options are possible, but the lance is still probably going to hit you either way even if it doesn't activate its heart-breaker effect due to hitting perfectly. It has a chance of not killing you either way, but it'll still do damage.

Trying to test your luck there would be a bit stupid however. No servant would willingly chance it even if they could.
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>>119852450
Because Fate is badly written, there no logic behind anything. Every fucking servant has an instant-kill move, but saber always win, because sabah. There's no strategy, no tactics, sabah always wins. The story has more plot holes than SnK.
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>>119853931
>saber always win
Are you kidding she gets her ass handed to her possibly the most
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>>119853931
>Saber always wins
ayy
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>>119853931
I don't remember Excalibur being able to use a gigantic laser beam in the original legends.

But then again, female Arthur.
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>>119853822
Did you even watch Fate Zero? He did more than Tokiomi.
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>>119853931
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>>119853590
Bullshit. Rin might have had plenty of potential, but the majority of Magi in the fourth war could have wiped her off the face of the planet with ease. She has zero experience. The same holds true for Sakura (but even more so).

Kayneth, Kirei, Tokiomi, and Kiritsugu would destroy her. Pretty much any Association Magus with a couple years of real world experience would destroy her.
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>>119854035
Dude, were you here during the F/Z threads?
Kotomine jogging usually ends up leaving a messy pile of broken bodies behind him.
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>>119853931
Saber is so useless and incompetent in UBW it's downright hilarious.

Anyone else just waiting for Ufotable to animate the part where she just stands around while her master is, to her knowledge, possibly being raped?
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>>119854098
>the majority of Magi in the fourth war could have wiped her off the face of the planet with ease
This is what Zerofags actualy believe
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>>119853587
I have to agree with the 2nd and 3rd points,why didn't he send Sola-Ui to some underground bunker?

And for that matter,why is that bitch so basic she can't protect herslef/defeat a simple charm spell.Iri never did fall for it,why didn't Kayneth vaccinate his bitch.
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>>119854197
Because she's a slut.
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>>119854098
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>>119853912
I didn't know fateverse was a D&D setting.
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>>119854197
>why is that bitch so basic she can't protect herslef/defeat a simple charm spell.Iri never did fall for it,why didn't Kayneth vaccinate his bitch.

Read the fucking novels

It was laid out in a non-ambigous way if you had read them that she could have easily resisted that magic, but chose not to personally.

Because she didn't love Kayneth, and wanted to love the other fag.

It's not "Whooops I fell for your mole" it's "I willingly let myself be effected by this magic because I'd rather have a halfway interesting love life". Every thread this one is brought up without people knowing shit about what they're talking about.

She was just a ho-bag
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>>119854256
Then you clearly weren't paying attention.
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>>119854256
How the fuck could you not know that?

Have you ever even seen a servant stat page?
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>>119854291
Seiba says those are just visualizations.
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>>119854195
But it's true. Kayneth would demolish her with the mercury, she isn't going to be able to take it on. Kiritsugu would be similar; Rin has zero experience, she stands zero chance against a guy who specializes in killing Magi. Kirei has the upperhand too.

Tokiomi is debatable, but chances are he would still win. The only outliers are Waver and Kariya who are pathetic and would be wrecked, but I said majority, not all of them.
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You can realize the entire system is founded upon D&D ideals when you see shit like STRx20 and "If successful luck roll..." in the status pages.
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>>119853772
>But all the other servants, what can they do? What can Gill do, what can Redman do? They just die.
Well, Gil kicked killed him in Fate and in UBW the Red Man took him head on (Lancer being unrestrained), trash talked him, and stopped his most powerful attack, and he didn't even use BPs or his NP.
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>>119854256
It's motherfucking 2015 for fuck's sake and you're on /a/, we talk about this shit all day.
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>>119854256
Have you bothered to read the stat page?
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>>119852450
If everyone does this then there's no war.
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>>119854385
. >>119854310
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>>119854197
She willingly let herself be charmed by Lancer's mole because she despised Kayneth, she never once felt any love towards that guy and their marriage is only a thing because that's what those of the mage style of life are suppose to be. Remember Aoi saying this? Most women don't really have anything expected of them but to fart out powerful magus children that will kill each other either to take over the house or in the grail war in the attempt to reach the root of all magic. Only in special cases like Rin, who is the last heir to her family. Lluvia whose family has no male heir and Bazett who has a powerful noble phantasm and battle skills that would be wasted on her being a baby making machine.
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>>119854401
See
>>119854357
>>
>>119854361
Red Foreman specifically used the most powerful shield against him. If they fought again he would've lost.
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>>119853772
>Gae Bolg is literally unstoppable.
E Rank luck
> Okay, so there are some complications, he would need to kill Berserker several times?
Good luck with that, after one time Gay Bulge is useless against bahsahkah
>I mean, there is no way to avoid dying from Gae Bolg, is there?
E rank Luck+your own luck
> What can Gill do
A lot of things actually
>what can Redman do?
Raw Anus
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>>119854436
>>
>>119854098

Sakura doesn't fight well because she hates draining people and finds it disgusting, see her personal talk with Shirou and the final battle in Hollow.

Sakura is very clearly heavily handicapped by having her supposed teacher keep familiars that drain her powers all the time on top of that.

You are right about experience, but the children clearly outstrip most of the adults by far with little prep. Rin and Sakura have MUCH greater innate powers and potential than their father and Kariya, everyone is better than Waver (Shinji doesn't count). Rin, Sakura, and Ilya are pretty much the aces of the 5th war.

Only Kotomine and Kiritsugu are an assured win, because Kayneth would underestimate them as children, and because Kotomine and Kiritsugu use guns and have mercy and church training. They were trained to kill even strong magi.
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>>119853891
Fried circuits
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>>119854478
I have read the VN

That picture just gives me a giggle
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXUoLil25b8
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>you will never play D&D with Nasu, Takeuchi and Urobutcher
Why live?
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSvOmu_ezbo
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>>119854487
Kotomine himself says he has very bad compatibility against Sakura if it came down to a fight. Doesn't mean he won't go out still speaking his mind without reservation. For the one who embodies the thing that allows his heart to still beat, it's not a match-up he wants to face.

Kotomine has high compatibility to beat Rin, but 2/10 times she can still beat him as noted. Her power and potential are much higher than his, the reason he has such skill against her in the first place is because his chances of distracting her during battle due to their history are quite high.
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>>119854541
>>119854566
/r/ring the HanaKana Mercury ball one.
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>>119854431
>yfw Archer uses his bow
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>>119854487
I'm curious, Does Sakura herself fight a bit like Rin with Gandr shots? Dark Sakura fought by using zerg rush style of shadow puppets and it made her practically untouchable if Rin didn't have the dem sword.
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>>119853891
You're serious, aren't you?
He made it look like it was Kerry's doing.
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>>119854593
This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HKTOLdA2I0
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>>119854600
>Katawa Shoujo
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>>119854478
Only the Assassin question is explained in the VN.
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>>119854628
No.
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>>119854620
Gandr waves

Partially embodies shadow upon her arm, but has to keep her will strong so it doesn't try to overtake her in part.
>>
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8FN0xhz4Tk
>>
>>119854554
Fuck Urobutcher as DM would be a problem.
Then Takeuchi just keeps making the same character over and over and over even when Urobutcher keeps killing them.

>>119854600
>2 friends

>>119854603
I got really excited the first time I played Extra. Then guess what? Archer uses dual blades.
>>
>>119854660
Guess you meant this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjpBa6IlTpw
>>
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>>119854726
Yes, thanks anon.
>>
>>119852450
Well they're all on a time limit.
Also, if you just keep yourself out of the fight the whole time, you'd be missing some crucial information (like, the identities of other Servants, for example)
Of course you can just pull a Kotomine and make your Servant go out there alone, but that kind of defeats the point.
>>
>>119854623
Okay, I must've missed that part.

But he did still use a gun and that's apparently a big no with mages.
>>
>>119854718
>I got really excited the first time I played Extra. Then guess what? Archer uses dual blades.
Well, he's the red man archer after all, but he's mixing it up. He's using bow for the block counterattack and almost all his specials are bow shots too. Almost.
>>
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>>119854554
That reminds me. What happened to Red Dragon? It should be done by now.
>>
>>119852450
>Why can't you just observe and hide for the whole battle then come out to fight the last one

That's exactly what Tokiomi tried to do in Zero. It backfired horribly because his Servant got so bored that he sold him out just to get to DO something.

Most Servants are hotheads and long for the glory of battle more than the actual grail. Holding them back may not be as easy as you think.
>>
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>>119854718
Archer always uses his twin-blades to test the competition, mark them out a bit, and then he'll use his bow. His swordsmanship is top class so its unlikely most people can really overtake him in that field. He always uses the twin swords to scope out enemies a bit.

That's what he did in Extra as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIilXBGyrCE

He's not even predominately an Archer. In Fate being Archer class just means you have something capable of long range combat, so even stuff that isn't bows can get in. In his case he can spam weapons from a decent range, or trace a bow.
>>
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>>119854818
I'm still mad Extra Archer can project Excalibur in the mooncell.
>>
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>>119854818
Why no guns?
>>
>>119854892
Excalibur Image - The Eternally Distant Golden Blade
>>
>>119853397
Magi are notorously stupid and arrogant. Also, they probably have some sense of honor.
Also keep in mind that they need to keep the war a secret from the rest of the peope or they risk angering the Association (which'd be a very bad thing).
>>
>>119854892

It's a degraded copy.
And even Nasu was like "well the animation team went behind my back and it was a GOOD animation so.."
>>
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>>119854924
>>
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>>119854892
You mean without dying? he can project Excalipoor outside the mooncell too, most likely at the cost of his life, like Shirou did in HF normal.
>>
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>>119854664
So just like Rider,she has to keep most of her real power on lock so as not to become a rampaging monster.That doesn't make any sense, she only ended up that way because of angry manjew. and that issue has been gone for months in HA.
>>
>>119854963
Sounds like an asspull.
>>
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>>119855036
More like pure retardation especially when he says

>Anyone can use them as long as long as they're trained

Like any knight was magically born with the ability of wielding a weapon.
>>
>>119854257
>>119854409
I thought mages were all about muh duty though.Sounds like her family needed to hit her more as a child.
>>
>>119855087
>Like any knight was magically born with the ability of wielding a weapon.

Whoso Pulleth Out This Sword of this Stone and Anvil, is Rightwise King Born of all England..
>>
>>119855087
The key point of any NP is supposed to be "The only and only, with its chosen owner"
>>
>>119853772
In theory, Gae Bolg always hits the heart (note: this does not mean it'll kill you)
In practice, Gae Bolg may or may not hit your heart based on REASONS
>>
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Did someone say gun wielding hero?
>>
>>119855152

Custom made guns?
>>
>>119855238

The guns are nameless and irrelevant, though. Francis Drake was not made a hero for wielding flintlocks.
>>
>>119855117
And most of those weapons are also passed on onto other knights, Moralltach or Fragarach being good examples.
>>119855152
Chosen by who? Why shouldn't a good gun user being worthy of having a Noble Phantasm and be considered a hero?
And as I said before, many weapons are shared by multiple heroes in a lot of myths so this whole "The only and only" is bullshit to begin with

But we already have Lolinobu who will probably have a gun NP anyway.
>>
>>119854963
But what about legends like Simo Hayha who turned conventional weapons into something much much more fatal?
>>
>>119854600
>music
>freddy mercury
got me good
>>
>>119855266
I also never implied otherwise. It's just a proof that a more "current" hero can exist, the problem is that you just don't hear legends about miraculous feets these days, the closest you'll probably get is some sharshooter from wild west with a custom made revolver or something.
>>
>>119855296
>Why shouldn't a good gun user being worthy of having a Noble Phantasm and be considered a hero?

It would have to be "The one and only" and the gun would have to have a soul, to be considered an NP. In order to have a soul, it would maybe have to be believed to be something more than it is, until it becomes exactly as its believed, like legends of old.

Elizabeth Drake uses guns, but they are not her NP.
>>
>>119855319
>miraculous feets
Oh god, I'm so sorry
>>
>>119855297
>who turned conventional weapons

Then no, it would have to be a special gun or a user legendary for more than just using guns. Which anyone could do with training.

Simo himself advocates the opposite, that training means a lot.
>>
>>119855296
>And most of those weapons are also passed on onto other knights, Moralltach or Fragarach being good examples.

And those awesome weapons aren't considered items that just anyone can wield even if they pass hands.
They only ever pass hands from hero to hero. Some random dude could not wield Fragarach.

But a gun is different. Anyone could pick up a gun and fire it.

>in before crossbows
We've been through this garden a thousand times. Crossbows aren't NP worthy either.
>>
>>119852450
>Why can't you just observe and hide for the whole battle then come out to fight the last one instead of constantly throwing your servants in fruitless fights, wasting all that prana and risking the identity reveal?
because you can but nobody, not even the ones that made it, seem to remember what the fucking war was about in the first place.
Everything you hear about "you have to fight in order to prove thyself worthy in front of the grail" or "if we don't fight there's no way to make the grail appear" is bullshit that people made up.

The only thing the greater grail wants is enough prana to smash the gate open and actualize the true heaven's feel, which won't ever happen because maguses are apparently retarded.
>>
>>119855012
he even says he can project Excalibur in UBW
>>
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>>119855319
>you just don't hear legends about miraculous feets these days

I don't know, man. I've seen a few miraculous feets in my time
>>
>>119855402
But isn't what makes a HS his/her legend?
Sure Simo used a gun that anyone else could use, but only he made a legend out of it.

The enemies he gunned down definitely didn't think that he had a normal gun.

Won't his legend just evolve his gun into his NP?
Or even better, have his NP revolve around his gun skills instead?

No other person can claim a half thousand kill count using a GUN.

>>119855434
Damnit, why is everyone in the fateverse so dumb?
>>
>>119855256
That shoot sentient bullets- then maybe.
>>
>>119855352
>>119855402
>>119855411
so an NP must be tied to an object, and can't just be an "ability" of the Hero?
like, if I summon Captain Ahab, the only object than can be is NP is his ship, simply because it's his own "named" possession".
you couldn't say his Harpoon is his NP, just because it's just another "harpoon"
or is even a ship is broad that anyone can be a "captain"?
>>
>>119855434
>if we don't fight there's no way to make the grail appear
>The only thing the greater grail wants is enough prana to smash the gate open and actualize the true heaven's feel, which won't ever happen because maguses are apparently retarded.
The grail needs to absorb defeated servants to do this, you have to fight
>>
>>119852865
>The true Grail never even appeared for his war, it was the lesser vessel that we saw.

We can't ever see the true grail because of Angry Manjew
>>
>>119855411
But Robin Hood in Extra has a crossbow Noble Phantasm. Poison out of your ass, all day every day until you shit your guts out.
>>
>>119855626

You're pretty much getting it. His NP would be his ship.
>>
If the grail grants all wishes why don't they just skip the servant summoning and ask it to grant a wish?
>>
>>119855539
Something similar to fake assassin could work. He had a famous sword but his NP was more of a technique rather than some magical shenanigan that the sword itself performed, like excaliblast or gay bulge.
>>
>>119855539
>Or even better, have his NP revolve around his gun skills instead?

Read the quote in question a lot more, you'll see the two or three necessary pieces that would make something an NP, while you keep asking "Well couldn't..." while voiding one or two of the reasons each time.

>>119855626
Nine Lives is an NP perhaps, Godhand is an NP, there are numberous NPs that aren't necessarily objects. Take a look at Francis Drake's NP to understand how something can become a legend, due to the legends surrounding it.
>>
>>119855649

His crossbow launches a fucking tree and you know it.
>>
>>119855649
The Yew tree is the NP though.
>>
>>119855539
>Damnit, why is everyone in the fateverse so dumb?
That's actually why Caster is so under appreciated in Stay Night. By a couple of days in she already had a stable, virtually perfectly defended territory (we don't see the fight but it's heavily implied that Assassin even repelled Illya and Berserker) where she is insanely powerful and has unlimited prana. From there she already has absolute knowledge of the secrets of the ritual and can in fact immediately win the war if she manages to make Saber succumb to her will. A bad strategist and horrible fighter but man at least she came fucking close.
>>119855630
>not having a secret way to impose the "Kill yourself" command to each servant the instant they are summoned
Einzbern a shit.
Makiri a shit.
Tohsaka a super shit.
No wonders Zeltretch was fed up about this shit and went on punching the moon and stuff.
>>
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>>119855672
Because grail-kun doesn't want that. Grail-kun wants you to make lots of friends.
>>
>>119852450

>Archer can shoot supersonic, explosive arrows from miles away
>Doesn't just snipe masters

Because they're all retarded.
>>
>>119855686
Well, Golden Hind cannot be called something normal that becomes a legend due to the legends surrounding it. After all it was much more than just talk, rather it created a miracle through its power, and became the "first" to do something. However the legends surrounding it really boosted it. It became a ship that reached Avalon as well.

>The Wild Hunt is a personification of storms, such as rainstorms and blizzards, which takes on the form of hounds and goats, horses and armed soldiers, or even monsters. Generally malevolent heroes, celebrities, or even ancient deities are considered to have become the leader of the Wild Hunt. While the most widely believed commander is Francis Drake, legends depict various other leaders of the night of storm, including King Arthur having turned into a demon, especially in the folklore of Scotland, the god of ancient times, Odin, or even Cain, the first murderer.
>>
>>119855297
Simo Hayha is probably a Counter Guardian
>>
Can a dick be a noble phantasm?
>>
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>>119854757
>you will never bear witness to the feast of kings
>you will never have a broskander
>>
>>119855738
>they retarded.

Tell me why Archer would want to win the war. Tell me why someone who knows the contest is rigged and is only in it to kill his past self, would want to win this shit.

Why is it that people trying to point out plot holes like this never knows what they're talking about?
>>
>>119855799
If semen can be magic in the Nasuverse, I don't see why not.
>>
>>119854436
>why didn'y Angry Manjew just calm down

Considering his nature, I don't think he could at the time.

>>119854478

The funny thing is even with the VNs answers, it sounds like bullshit.
>>
>>119855833
Maybe Archer should not be a dick and point out that the grail is a fake.
>>
>>119855833
To save people. If the grail falls into the hands of a bad master then there will be a lot of deaths like in F/Z
>>
>>119855929
He's got his own shit going on.
>>
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>>119854436
This image never fails to make me laugh.
Frodos were the best part of F/Z threads.
>>
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>>119855686
>Nine Lives is an NP perhaps, Godhand is an NP, there are numberous NPs that aren't necessarily objects.

well twelve labors is an accomplishment, Hercules owns it, it's his.
so technically you could say anything that a specific hero lays claim to can be their NP.

so I guess going back to my original thought, would you be able to say Harpooning the white whale is worthy enough to be manifested as a NP.
or, on second hand, could you say Ahab's thirst for revenge is "legendary" enough to manifest as a NP?
>>
>>119854718
>Fuck Urobutcher as DM would be a problem.
>Then Takeuchi just keeps making the same character over and over and over even when Urobutcher keeps killing them.

No one would play with a killer DM who never stops being a killer DM. That kind of player is only necesary when your friends are all min-maxing munchkin assholes. Any other scenario, you're just being a dick.
>>
>>119854963
>Rambo will never be a heroic spirit
>>
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>>119855957
Moby Dick is in Fate/Extra

It's listed in another interview to be one of the highest ranks of divine beasts.

>Q: There's three ranks for magic beasts, but what's the most famous of the Divine Beasts, the greatest of those?
>Dragons are special beings with the alignments of the three types, but are there any currently existing dragons that can interfere with the real world in the world of Fate?
>A: Moby Dick and Typhon? Divine beasts like those are more super weaponish than living beings I suppose.
>>
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>>119855799
>Summon pic related as Servant
>tfw he bones every single waifu with his NP
>>
>>119855962
>Then Takeuchi just keeps making the same character over and over and over even when Urobutcher keeps killing them.
Made me laugh.
Just prevent them from using their RMs, dead end catharsis and unlimited king of knights, maybe that'll be enough.
>>
>>119855539
>Damnit, why is everyone in the fateverse so dumb?

Because it's a chuuni novel.
>>
>>119855957
>or, on second hand, could you say Ahab's thirst for revenge is "legendary" enough to manifest as a NP?

That's a definite possibility. He could mark an enemy who wounds him and is able to detect their presence and gain buffs when hounding them specifically, or something weird like that.
It'd be most comparable to Spartacus's Crying Warmonger, crystallizing him as a hero of personal revenge.
>>
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>>119852450
>Why can't you just observe and hide for the whole battle then come out to fight the last one instead of constantly throwing your servants in fruitless fights

That's what pretty girl Hassan has been doing
>>
>>119855943
I recommend therapy.
>>
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>>119855799
His can block swords.

Although his NP would probably just be Chaos.
>>
>>119855999
>Jack churchill will never be a Heroic spirit
>That one OP SS officer will never be a Heroic spirit
>>
>>119856085
I want to fuck her skull
>>
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You summon Hitler as a Lancer
What happens?
>>
>>119856016
>divine beasts

It's a fucking whale that a guy was obsessed with killing. It's not special, it's just an animal. That's the whole point of Moby Dick, that's it's pointless to seek revenge against an animal.
>>
>>119855727
>Caster
>powerful
She has pretty much no way of deafeating any servant on her own.
She's the weakest servant in the 5th war
>>
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>>119856130
You do that and end up like her Master
>>
>>119856158
Exterminate the Jews.
>>
>>119856181
I think that's the point of caster class. They're not supposed to be 1v1 killing machines.
>>
>>119856173

There are literally hundreds of dissertations on the "point" of Moby Dick.
The fact is that the whale won in the end, smiting at least three boats and taking Ahab to the watery depths.
>>
>>119856173
>Nasu
>making sense
>reading novels/sources
>>
>>119856097

Rance would be retardedly broken in a Grail War

>gets stronger with every opponent he kills because he comes from a world with an xp system
>Chaos can break any form of barrier or protection and it a very powerful sword to boot
>Rance Attack doesn't require Chaos to use since it's inherent to him, he just needs to be holding something in his hands
>any woman he rapes wants to fight for him
>you cannot stop the rape
>his nature of being a bug in the system means rules don't apply to him

That being said, no master could possibly control the guy
>>
>>119856181
And yet she could have won the war in UBW
>>
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>be Rin
>servant is Archer(EMIYA)
>enter the Mooncell somehow
>see this
What do you do?
>>
>>119856223
With Casters you have to hope they have a broken NP and prep-time
See in Apocrypha
>Adam
>Hanging Gardens
>>
Sounds like MB would make a badass berserker
>>
>>119856016
so is that Reaffirming that Ahab can/could be summoned with an NP(other than his ship)?

>>119856066
not to far off but I'd summon him as berserker with his NP being able to redirect his thirst for revenge and anger towards any given hero, forcing them into a fight to the death.

>>119856173
>it's just a big lizard that breaths fire, whats the big deal
>they're just bulls that shit thunder and lightning, what's the big deal
>it's just a snake with thousands of heads, what's the big deal

disregard that Moby Dick itself is larger than life, and is as much a metaphor for an insurmountable mountain for Ahab, as it was a fucking huge sperm whale.
>>
>>119856342
Do that "boon ovu mai swoodo" thing !
>>
>>119856351
>adam
>first human
the horror
not even gil can claim that
>>
>>119856342
Expose my defenseless anus and contract it like a second reproductive opening, thus giving them a great nightmare through my pure lewdness.
>>
>>119856394
>>it's just a big lizard that breaths fire, whats the big deal
>>they're just bulls that shit thunder and lightning, what's the big deal
>>it's just a snake with thousands of heads, what's the big deal

the difference is these are seen in very famous historical legends, and often have connection to divine beings

moby dick is a whale from a 19th century fictional novel. putting it on the same rank as actual dragons or gifts from zeus is retarded
>>
>>119854603
>yfw Lancer can evade arrows and projectiles

Cu is OP. Has skills to prevent the enemy from escaping, to safely flee from anything and reset a fight and Gae Bolg.

Kirei fucked up.
>>
>>119856484
Apocrypha Caster was Avicebron and his NP was the "perfect" golem who was going to lead humans back to Eden.
Didn't got completed though
>>
>>119856552
meh, i thought nasu pulled through with the real first man
>>
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>>119856544
>>
>>119854674

post the rest
>>
>>119856173
Wasn't the whale actively attacking whaling boats though? Like even when they weren't actually doing anything?
>>
>>119856520
>very famous historical legends

how many people, off the top of their head are well versed in Irish Mythos?
out of 100 people how many people do you think know who Diarmuid Ua Duibhne is?

now ask those same 100 people who Moby Dick is.
the time at which the legend was written shouldn't matter, 19th century, or the 4th century makes no difference.
>>
>>119856671
it does matter, since magical beings and the like were much more common and more powerful a long time ago in the nasuverse. whether or not the legend is famous is irrelevant, divine beasts aren't heroic spirits
>>
>>119853772
This issue is addressed several times in the VN, actually. Not very well, mind you, but still addressed.
The ways of countering Gay Bulge are:
>kill him before he uses it
>survive it and then kill him
>stay out of range of the attack
>attack him WHILE he is leaping (which is what true assassin did in HF)

And since it's stated Lancer can use Gay Bulge several times without "recharging" like other servants can, there is nothing to stop him from simply using it again several times in a fight, even if it didn't work the first time.

Lancer is fucking bullshit. There is a reason that in all 3 routes, each of his deaths is basically a plot hax.
1. fighting Gilgamesh, where he was constantly bombarded with projectiles before he could even USE his NP
2. suicide
3. got snuck up on

Fuck this bad writing.
>>
>>119856544

Protection from Arrows:
>as long as the shooter is within his line of sight, he can track down ranged weapons with his eyes and defend against them"
>does not apply for attacks made from super-long-range or with a great area-of -effect

Basically, Caladbolg and other explosive Broken Phantasms can kill him, and normal arrows can hit if Archer is out of his sight or sniping him from a very long distance.
>>
>>119856671
>the time at which the legend was written shouldn't matter, 19th century, or the 4th century makes no difference.

Now that's straight false in Type-Moon, where Older = Stronger is writ fact.

However, for all we know in Nasu's head Moby Dick has been around for far longer than anybody knows, and Ahab just happened to run the wrong way of an ancient supernatural phenomena. Divine Beasts are not heroes: their power comes from themselves, not their legends.
>>
>>119856544
Funnily enough someone like Atalanta, who relies entirely on arrows, would still probably destroy Cu in a straight fight
>>
>>119856706
>>119856744
not saying Moby dick is a heroic spirit, I'm just making the argument that Ahab is more than worthy enough to be summoned as a heroic spirit and materialize an NP soley because he went toe to toe against this force of nature
>>
>>119856781
>straight fight
That's the problem right there, there's almost no straight fights. It seem like there's always SOMETHING that's messing with it. Orders from master, wounds from other fights, third party interfering, etc
>>
>>119856016
>be Nasu
>people try to conduct serious interviews about your imaginary world
>tired fo this shit, just wanna write sex scenes
>answers with the first bullshit that comes to his mind
>>
>>119856945

If you actually read the japanese interviews, he's not very serious about it.
Beast Lair just collects and translates the serious ones, though. He has a lot of joke Q&As in every interview.
>>
>>119856181
That's why she does shit like mind-controlling Saber. Just gotta use some strategy.
>>
>>119852688

If this is the case you think they would explicitly state this in the beginning. Even in that shitty anime Togainu no Chi (a yaoi battle royale series) they state in the beginning that vultures are penalized.
>>
>>119856781
How ? why?
>>
Can your average magus cast some kind of spell that would allow him to quickly travel from one place to another? I know that the command spell teleport and the shit that F/SN caster pulls off is pretty much a true magic, so that's out of the question. Do the mages in nasuverse actually travel everywhere like normal people?
>>
>>119856945
>bullshit answer becomes law of the nasuverse
>internet nerds start to follow his interviews like gospel
>entire arguments started based on an offhand comment he made for shit and giggles
>>
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>>119857189
>Nasu spends his free time drinking coffee and browsing fansites, laughing at the arguments
>>
>>119856781
And where are you pulling that from?
>>
>>119857152
>Can your average magus cast some kind of spell that would allow him to quickly travel from one place to another?
Depends on the distance but it should be possible.
>Do the mages in nasuverse actually travel everywhere like normal people?
Yes.
>>
>Thaumaturgy and Mythology: An Introduction to Magecraft and Philosophy in the Nasuverse
>by Prof. Kinoko Nasu
Would you sign up for this in community college?
>>
>>119857497
What do the credits go towards?
>>
>>119857497
no
>>
>>119857497
That's like the first time in my life where my chuunibyou could be useful. I wouldn't say no to free credits.
>>
>>119855091
she was second child so she doesnt get the family mark. She still is a strong mage. She decides to take over the servant and win the grail so she can finally live for herself
>>
>>119857497
Yes.
>>
>>119857129
>>119857332
Straight fight was a retarded way to word it. If given enough range and the opening attack, she would win. Even if Lancer somehow avoids the first shot, she excels at breaking line of sight; protection of the arrows isn't going to work well when he can't keep track of where she is.

In a straight fight though, like if they were both standing in front of each other and then someone says "fight!", Cu has massive advantage and would win 9 times out of 10. I don't remember the spoilers of her boar NP, but I doubt it would help much.
>>
>>119857748
I believe that given enough range pretty much any archer class servant could somehow whittle Cu down. See F/HA's bridge scenes for example. Red man wouldn't even need to break the line of sight when his projectiles can basically destroy the bridge itself and he can trace hrunting that's basically a homing missile that won't stop attacking you. Any heroic spirit that's Archer class should be able to pull some similar "bullshit" move, otherwise they wouldn't really be archer class servants.
That being said, if the terrain would allow it, Cu might be able to close the distance thanks to the combination of battle continuation and projectile defense.
>>
>>119855672
because the servant summoning is what makes it work. You can summon a servant but you can only support them shortly before they are lost. With the grail you can support them and then when you kill them they cant go back because the grail catches them. It is like a one way road.
>>
>>119852865
>If the Grail deems you unworthy for any reason you don't get a wish
I think the Grail needs to check its privilege. Exclusionary scum.
>>
>>119858293
So does the spirit die then? How does that work with saber?
>>
>>119856291
>summon rance
>he appears
>the second he is there his bug in the system NP breaks your servant master bond
>he runs away
>a few weeks later on national news you see rance who is now king and can remain in the world forever due rape recharging him
>>
>>119858293
This is what I don't get about the system. The grail needs mana to grant wishes, so it expends mana to summon and maintain Servants which will kill each other to fill the grail with... the mana it had to begin with?
>>
>>119856173
>it's just a whale

Hey man, my great-grandfather, his father, and his father and brother were all killed by whales.

...my family's business until 60 years ago was whaling.
>>
>>119856641
Just look inthe archive, the tripfag,StrayWolf made them
>>
>>119858543
the grail feeds mana from the ley line. That in combination with the mana from the masters means you have 7 blobs of mana walking around. They die and get stored up to give the winner of the grail war a huge amount of mana to either fulfil his wish or go to the Root.
>>
>>119853157

I saw huge amounts of potential in Kirei's assassin, but alas, that's what happens to minor characters. I was so ready to see them murder everyone and just watch them be actual competent assassins.
>>
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>>119858543
I think that's where the lesser and greater grails come into play. I'm not an expert so somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. The greater grail already has the energy to grant wishes and stuff (that's the 60 years between HGW's, 10 in case of the fifth, where it just sits on the ley lines and gathers mana) , so it summons the servants from the throne of heroes (magus is the one who maintains them though iirc), they kill each other so that the lesser grail can catch the spirit (they would probably just go back to the throne otherwise) and complete the ritual. Though I'm not sure if I'm not just spouting nonsense.
>>
>we will never see Cu's 12 hour fight with Gilgamesh
fuck you Nasu
fuck you
>>
>>119854015
There was a lenend in which it had the miraculous power to glow with blinding light.. The 14th c, author Thomas Mallory described it like this: ""thenne he drewe his swerd Excalibur, but it was so breyght in his enemyes eyen that it gaf light lyke thirty torchys." (Book I, 19, from The Works of Sir Thomas Malory, Ed. Vinaver, Eugène, 3rd ed. Field, Rev. P. J. C. (1990). 3 vol. Oxford: Oxford University Press.)

When King Arthur is a is short blonde woman and Cú Chulainn is a blue-haired bishie it´s not that much of a strech to go from blinding light like thirty torches to laser beams.
>>
>>119858077
Hell, even Robin could probably pull it off.

No Face May King: Faceless King (顔のない王ノーフェイス・メイキング, Kao no nai Ou?), called Faceless King (顔のない王かおのないおう, ?) in Fate/Extra, is Robin Hood's hidden Noble Phantasm, magic clothing that erases any sign of the wearer. Robin Hood is an incarnation of nature.

With both the leaves and brown stems of the costume, Robin Hood is definitely the incarnation of nature. Donning the May King costume erases any sign, so those wearing it naturally melt into that appearance. With it, he holds the same level of ability as the Fairy Puck. It is said to be stronger than the Bow of Prayer on the back of his hand, as a "one-sided victory cheat item." It allows him to disable the reading of one another in battle, allowing him to win all attack exchanges that turn in-game.

It does not hide magical energy, but it does completely conceal the wearer's sound and scent. It allows for him to utilize his sniping abilities and exhibit Assassin-like behavior while hiding himself in the cloak. If he begins to attack, his targets can sense that he is following them, but are unable to actually detect his location. Such tactics aggravate his chivalrous Master, Dan Blackmore, so it is strictly forbidden outside of combat. It can be given to another, such as Passionlip in order to conceal File Folders, but she fails to use it properly.[1] She breaks it while attempting to use it as a ribbon due to finding its green color to be pretty, citing how fragile it was for her.
>>
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>>119858916
Maybe when someone does Fate route anime again, they could release several OVAs afterwards that would cover the entire fight, but it would probably get boring fast. Cu just dodging and taunting while Gilgamesh gets progressively more and more frustrated while calling Cu a mongrel.
[zasshu intensifies]
>>
>>119858985
>Cú Chulainn is a blue-haired bishie
Not as ridicilous as the actual legend
He was always Bishounen outside of warp-spasms
>>119859046
Gil never calls Cu a mongrel though.
In fact Cu is the only servant he calls by name in F/SN
>>
>>119858836
Why can't it just take mana from the ley line to fill itself and have that be the end of it?
>>
>>119858536
>Rin summons Rance
>rape time
>Gandr to the face
>"you gotta do better than that. Shizuka used to hit me with blasts big enough to destroy this house"
>>
>>119859096
I refuse to believe that the word "mongrel" didn't leave his mouth for an entire 12 hours.
>>
>>119859130
>She uses a command spell "NO"
>he interprets it as "YES" and gets even more "motivated"
>>
>>119854357
>anti-world
>maximum target: 1000 people
>>
>>119859145
Gil directly "collected"/stole the Title King of Heroes (of Ireland) from Cu.
>>
>>119859199
There wasn't that many people around back in the day I guess
>>
>>119859130

I said it before. If a character who ran on Looney Toons logic (they only get hurt if it's funny) was summoned they would be unbeatable in the grail war.
>>
>>119859118
because magic doesnt work that way
>>
>>119859333
They would probably die during the filler, like cooking scenes or something.
>>
>>119858867
the magus only supplies part of the mana. Keeping up a servant without grail active takes pretty much all your mana. That is why shirou has to bone Rin all the time in sunny days. In heavens feel sakura has parts of the grail in her to supply rider with mana and the amount she makes too much gets drained by shirou boning her.
>>
>>119859565
God dammit Shirou
>>
>>119859495
You can't kill a toon...unless you use Dip (which if you pay attention to the ingredients, it's paint thinner)
>>
>>119859188
>implying the command seal wouldnt be void immediately due him being a bug in the system

permanent rulebreaker.
>>
>>119859623
shirou his greatest ability is the power of the dick.
>>
>>119854620

Sakura fights by slinging things and using her shadow, which she throws out and it pools under people like voids that restrict and skewer people or suck them up due to the extra dimensional space she has with Imaginary Numbers, but it scrapes at her mind to use it and she could blacken thanks to her birth element being tampered with and that the Matou magecraft comes back to the caster.

Nasu basically dialed up her difficulty to be a magus up to eleven, but she still has the potential, as Caster notes when they talk in a scene in Hollow.
>>
>>119859863
But I'm pretty sure that Imaginary Numbers without utilizing the shadow can't affect the physical plane.
The "blackening" is kinda retarded though and I suspect it doesn't exists outside of HA
And here we go again
>>
>>119855045
>Kayneth Fried Circuits
ehehhehehe

I kind of wish I wasn't on vacation from /a/ during Fate/Zero. Maybe I would have enjoyed it more.
>>
>>119858077
Or Cu could just toss the bolg at him seeming as it has the same effect.

Also if i remember right archer has to trace Hrunting multiple times, each more charged than the last.
>>
>>119859863
These two kids are gonna be amazing witches when they get older. To bad we'll never see it.
>>
>>119858077
And you are completly ignoring Cu's skillset in that.
>>
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>>119860137
>>
>>119860057
Nope, hrunting was just the last shot, otherwise the shot would just keep coming back at saber/shirou.
And that tossed Gae Bolg, see what happens in the Stay Night, he would just Rho Aias it, especially since the distance was roughly 4 km, instead of the few meters they had between them in SN.
>>
>>119860233
>just Rho Aias
Are you literaly retarded?
>>
>>119860275
>He uses it to defend against Lancer's Gáe Bolg, which manages to pierce up to the seventh layer before finally stopping.
I don't know, are you?
>>
>>119860361
>Up to the Seventh Layer
>>
>>119860361
It comply pierced his Raw Anus.
>>
>>119856484
Apoc Caster creates a sorta replica of Adam with golems. No one can take down the replica of Adam as long as its feat are planted on the ground, since anything its standing on becomes Eden, and violence is impossible within that holy sanctuary.

Thus all attacks are perfectly nulled as long as he is standing on Eden as a terraforming effect. The terraforming couldn't quite catch up to him though, and Astolfo happened to have an NP that could cause anything to trip. If his feet weren't planted he was vulnerable perhaps.

>>119859199
Anti-World doesn't mean "Can blow up the entire world", rather it means "Targets the world around".

Look at the other Anti-World NPs out there to get a general idea of how it works. They all attack by striking the world itself in some way, they target the world itself.

>>119859996
>But I'm pretty sure that Imaginary Numbers without utilizing the shadow can't affect the physical plane.

It can, and there's no official source that says otherwise. I've read them all, the only mention of something similiar is just an uncited sentence on the wiki, and none of the interviews claim anything like that.

It's an element that Tokiomi believed was equal in rarity and ability to Average One, to the point that he was unsure which kid to give away at first. Eventually he did end up making his call however. Those imaginary elements are hard to come by, and they can be more troublesome than the basic elements in the right hands. The usage at times is a lot more of a toss up however. It can either be more useful than any basic element, or basically useless, depending on what you rolled outside of the box. Kind of like when your element is sword, on a scale that ranges from Earth to Air. It's an odd one, but it might be more useful than any of them if applied correctly.

Imaginary Numbers can effect the world around, even without shadow. That's known already, but we've never seen an average user of it to date.
>>
>>119860408
>before finally stopping
key word
>stopping
I seriously doubt that a Gae Bolg thrown over 4 km would somehow increase in it's strength. Result: Archer alive, Lancer still 4 km away
>>
>>119854436
>why didn't Enkidu just take some medicine?

This has never failed to make me laugh.
>>
>>119860550
>It can, and there's no official source that says otherwise
Here from the complete Material.
And I think the only other user of it we've heard of so far created pocket dimmensions.

>Hollow
>The alignment that Sakura was born with. Defined, in magery, as that "which is possible but is not in the physical plane". Also called imaginary numbers
>>
>>119860601
Archer extremly wounded and out of prana while Cu has more than enough time to close the distance considering that he's the fastest servant in F/SN.
>>
>>119853931
Let me try and fix this for you.

Because Fate is badly written, there no logic behind anything because Nasu enjoyed stimulating himself while he reads all the stupid Fate threads on Cambodian radio drama forums. Every fucking servant has an instant-kill move, but they dick around for the first half of the VN/LN/anime to fill time. There's no strategy, no tactics, and everyone suffers, especially Lancer.
>>
>>119853772
Why target servants? Have him target masters. It solves the Berserker problem easier because Ilya always follows him around
>>
>>119860784
Berserker would kill him before disappear.
>>
>>119860784
You'd be out of command spell by the 3rd master
>>119860835
I highly doubt that
>>
>>119857092
Why would they? It's not like this is an official tournament organized by a company. It's just an obscure magic ritual created for the sake of reaching the Root and everyone has to think for himself.
>>
>>119860694
I'd just say you're interpreting it a certain way. That which isn't possible but is possible, that which is usually not conceptually possible. Messing with matter that doesn't typically have form within reality like shadows, nothingness, ether, or certain types of energy to create a result. That which is not real within reality, yet at the same time is real, things like ether.

It's noted already that imaginary numbers is adept in the real world at controlling or altering ether structures for example. Also creating dimensional pockets out of nothingness in a sort.

Conceptualizing things that "aren't" on the physical plane, as ether is something that "isn't" exactly. An imaginary sort of element. It's the stuff demons or typical monsters are made out of, and that which Sion has learned to control.
>>
>>119860835
He's supposed to be the quickest servant at short ranges. I'm sure he can handle hit and run tactics. Hell if he even catches sight of Ilya, he can just throw the spear and she'll be dead

>>119860847
I thought about that, but in Fate HA he makes a huge deal about always following orders from his master. He's not Saber that needs to be forced into doing underhanded tricks
>>
>>119860694
>imaginary numbers
what the fuck does that have to with anything he just said
literally what the fuck does this nigger smoke when he writes this shit
>>
>>119860860
At the end it's Plot-device: The Alignment
And I realy don't want to discuss this again
>It's noted already that imaginary numbers is adept in the real world at controlling or altering ether structures for example.
Citation needed
>Also creating dimensional pockets out of nothingness in a sort.
That's what I meant with pocket dimensions

Better yet try to explain to me what the alignment is supposed to do
>>
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>>119860961
>He's supposed to be the quickest servant at short ranges.

Quickest in the fifth war perhaps
>>
>>119860756
Assuming that he really throws his gae bold at him and it goes like it went in their fight in front of the church I can see him closing the distance (that's again assuming that archer wouldn't withdraw in the meanting when in that state).
Cu would really only need to cross the bridge and get into the city where there are building everywhere to completely negate Archers advantage (that's also why I said that if the terrain would allow it he could close the distance with his abilities)
>>
>>119861019
>meanting
meantime* dammit
not enough coffee
>>
>>119860977
It sounds cool for people who have no clue what it's supposed to be.
>>119861019
Why would he even run around in physical form?
>>119861012
Agility has nothing to do with speed.
Stats in general mean nothing.
Also the only servant who's confirmed to be faster is Achilles
>>
>>119861012
He just has to be faster than any master. He really should just fight like a sniper
>>
>>119860961
>He's not Saber that needs to be forced into doing underhanded tricks
That's true but he has his own code of honour that he won't budge from.
For example he never fought against unarmed opponents in his life.
>>
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>>119861004
Imaginary Numbers is like that which is outside of reality, or conceptualizing and controlling that which is outside of the world from within the world. In Prisma the pocket worlds where the servants are located are imaginary number dimensions. In CCC the far side of the Moon is an imaginary numbers space. This is a very reoccurring concept tied to magecraft in general in Nasuland.

Things that are outside of the natural order or dimensions that overlap reality without being an alternate world-line or something, can typically be imaginary numbers spaces. Ether is an element outside of the natural order.

>A power highly effective against spiritual beings, but not so potent against those whose body is not made out of Ether.

Not sure about all of that quote from the wiki, but it's in there. Like a fire user can control flames, imaginary numbers can give shape and form to that which by nature can have neither of those two things, that which is imaginary in a sense. That which composes the body of spirits is an element outside of the normal boundaries, something perhaps imaginary in a sense. As Sakura used it to give shape and form to that which had no form, a shadow, it can be used to give form to that which is outside the bounds of normal physical space.
>>
>>119861087
>Why would he even run around in physical form?
That's what I don't know either. That goes for pretty much every servant out there with the exception of Seiba. Why don't they switch to the spirit form more often and even during the battle?
>>
>>119861347
>Ether is an element outside of the natural order.
That's wrong.
Ether is the 5th Great Element and so doesn't fall under Imaginary Numbers
That obviously implies that Nasu knows what he's talking about
>Five great elements
>Earth
>One of the two alignments of Kiritsugu. Kiritsugu exhibited his attribute of combining and used magic which combined the wounds of an enemy in a different form than normal, and made them unhealable.
>Five great elements
>Water
>The alignment that the Matou magi have had for generations. Matou exhibit the attribute of absorption and have passed it on. Sakura's alignment changed from Emptiness to water.
>Five great elements
>Fire
>The alignment of Tokiomi and also one of the two alignments of Kiritsugu. It is the symbol of life and death and has good chemistry with destructive magic.
>Five great elements
>Wind
>One of the two alignments of Kayneth Elmelloi Archibold. There are few magi with wind as an alignment
>Five great elements
>Sky
>An element which makes up celestial bodies that is newly added as a fifth element to the four great elements of earth, water, fire, and wind. This is, in other words, Ether.
>>
>>119861402
>Why don't they switch to the spirit form more often and even during the battle?
Why should they?
>>
>>119861564
I'm not that guy but say that someone is swinging a sword at you and you can transform into a ghost at will, why bother dodging?
>>
>>119861607
Because that sword is a Noble Phantasm that would still cut you.
>>
>>119861607
because reforming from spirit form takes time. Think berserker when summoned in the first fight of zero.
>>
>>119860694

A Hispanic magus that chills in the Clock Tower that Nasu talked about on the TM mobile site can use it to hold things in an extra dimensional space where time holds no meaning.

This was even explored in HF, where Shirou was locked into another dimension in a bad end when the Shadow took him and he walked for hours inside her, not realizing he was transported. This was a facet of her powers, not AM. Sakura puts Rider into this dimension as punishment when she tries to molest Waver in a family restaurant in a drama cd.

Basically wait for Nasu to actually come out with more stiff on (read:never) because there isn't anything that says Imaginary Numbers doesn't affect things on the material plane, because she does so all the time. There is even a picture of her making small Shadow Giants to pick up papers and stand on her shoulder.

Fun fact, Rin's origin is Imaginary Element. That was in CM2. Guess Nasu wanted true dichotomy with the sisters.
>>
>>119861711
Think about Lancer spirit-forming on Berserkers fighter jet and dismantling it with his lance.
Also back on track, they should be harder to track while in spirit form
>While in spiritual form, they cannot be easily detected by enemies, due to being invisible to the naked eye and most forms of scrying, or affected by physical interference. They can travel where they please without being impeded by walls, but they also cannot carry anything in that state.
>>
>>119861740
>Rin's origin is Imaginary Element.
Did we ever get a real citation on that?
Or is this still just an unsourced part of the wiki.
Also that doesn't realy make sense considering how origins are supposed to work from KnK where it was the "core" of ones being like Shirou's sword-origin.
>>
>>119861607
because reforming from spirit form takes time. Think berserker when summoned in the first fight of zero.

By the way, is the leftover space in sakuras pussy after shirou sticks it in also part of her imaginary numbers
>>
>>119861740
>When she tried to molest Waver
>5th HGW Rider
>10 years after Zero
It's good to know that people still consider Waver rapeable even as a grown man in his late twenties
>>
>>119855638
Why do they make that big of a deal having his wish of materialization granted? Even as a servant he is weak as shit and if he becomes human he can just go and become a hardcore rockstar.
>>
>>119861740
>Fun fact, Rin's origin is Imaginary Element.
Citation needed.
Because the only thing I've ever found about it was completly unsourced
>>
>>119861846

>By the way, is the leftover space in sakuras pussy after shirou sticks it in also part of her imaginary numbers

Well Shirou did sound like it felt pretty magical, so maybe it is.
>>
>>119858985
>""thenne he drewe his swerd Excalibur, but it was so breyght in his enemyes eyen that it gaf light lyke thirty torchys."
Man, English used to be retarded as hell.
>>
>>119862229
>Man, English is still retarded as hell.
agreed, but what would you except from a language that is a slapped together patchwork of monkey languages
>>
>>119861956
I want to see adult Waver get felt up by a pack of MILFs on a subway
>go to panda
>Search male:chikan -yaoi
>Only like two pages of results
Disgusting
>>
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>>119861347
Is Cthulhu an imaginary number?
>>
What would happen if Tacoyummy reached the Root?
>>
>>119861740
CCC also explores imaginary numbers a bit more

In a dimension where time and space hold no meaning, that is outside of time itself. Explaining time outside of time is a Nasu tier explanation that's sure to confuse its fair share of people.

Anyone want to find out how that works?
>>
>>119859996

We don't know because Nasu isn't very specific due to his love of provoking discussion by omitting details. But since the strap she is using is marked as a mystic code in one of the material books, and the same priest that teaches her things in HF is around in Hollow.

So you can surmise that she will always have the taint as a part of her since she lived with it that long and it'll always be a danger. Call it a challenge of the author that she just always have to be strong if she wants to be a magus.
>>
>>119863193
I mean the whole taint makes no sense since the greater grail got destroyed in HF but not in Hollow Ataraxia.
So having that "blackening" only makes sense in the context of HA , maybe
>>
>>119863116
I don't realy want to know how Nasu explains a place outside of time.
I realy don't
>>
>>119853399
>Rin didn't have a wish
She fought because her family has trying to get the grail since generations ago. It's true she doesn't have a wish for herself, but it's her duty to get the grail as the representative of her family. Illya is in a similar situation.

>Shinji didn't,
Shinji wanted to be able to use magic.

>Sakura didn't
Shirou convinces her to fight for the grail so she can live without the worms.

And you forget people like Zouken, who wants immortality, or Gil, who wants to get rid of all the unworthy mongrels in the world. Kirei didn't had a wish either, but was also interested in the grail for its contents. And Caster's wish wasn't related to the Grail, she was just happy to be with her husbando.

The thing is, all of them want the grail but HOW much they want or need the grail is downplayed at times, so even when they need the grail (like Sakura) they act pretty chill about it and have sugee slice of life scenes like there no urge of anything. You'd think they'd take this more seriously, but they don't.
>>
>>119863427
The throne is already outside of time, but this is the first time a game has taken place entirely outside of time and space. It's like a game taking place in something just like the Throne.
>>
>>119863483
If it's "outside of time" observing it would be impossible.
>>
>>119863382

Not necessarily, Rin says Sakura has some side effects of being attached to Angra Mainyu that she ignored to focus on saving Shirou in True.

Nasu might just have purposefully omitted that part about her still having the chance to blacken.
>>
>>119863568
You asked for it

>Rin :: What is it, then. You have something you want to ask me?

> …no, nothing.
[>] …what’s the observed universe?

>Rin :: The observed universe…? Ah, I mentioned that in my explanation, I guess. “There’s no passage of time here. If it were a loop we might still have hope…” was that it? A time loop is when time goes in a circle. It means you return to the past, so theoretically you could alter not only known situations, but also unknown ones. But we don’t have dreams like that here. Because no matter what happens the “result” can’t be changed. The far side of the moon is a world made of imaginary numbers. There’s a concept of time here, but the way it works is different from the real thing. You would call it the difference between “recognized time” and “recorded time,” I guess. See, right now we’re standing here talking, and that’s the present, right? But, …one, two, three, and. Right. So now the previous me…what I said three seconds ago has become the “past.” Even though we’re still in the middle of the “same conversation.” That’s the flow of time according to your cognizance. Humans divide time and space into past, present, and future according to their own cognizance. That’s the very simple physical law of observed space. As we can’t see what will come after the present, there fluctuations in related parties can change the future. It’s too late now, but the real world and the near side of the moon are both operated as this observed universe. You understand so far?
>>
>>119863575
>Rin says Sakura has some side effects of being attached to Angra Mainyu
Please post the screencap of that
>>
>>119863612
>…somehow. It sounds like “time according to cognizance” is the world we live in. According to human perception, the “past” is always being updated from the “present.” From the present, we observe the “future” that will come eventually. And we can’t perceive these three states simultaneously.

>Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time.
>>
>>119863612
But right in that text it says that time exists in there.
>>
>>119863648
>In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don’t know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey “this present moment” even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn’t make it in time.

>“Pursuing her so we can somehow make it.” That act itself was pointless. The fact that BB would reach the Core was determined from the start. Were we fighting in order to fail…?

>Rin :: …anyway, that’s how it is. If you understand now, be quiet. There’s no way we can win against God, after all. If you can’t calm down, why not take a walk around the school building? It’s completely safe. We’re being kept here like pets, after all.
>>
>>119852450
The Holy Grail itself chooses who's the victor, and the only way to be chosen is to prove yourself through battles against other Masters/Servants.
>>
>>119863435
>And Caster's wish wasn't related to the Grail
the intended bait for the heroes to heed the call of the grail was to either get another chance at life.
>>
>>119863665
Keep reading, and then read it again.
>>
>>119854757
classic gilgamesh move, crashing the party with a 'maybe'
>>
>>119863755
Not really, they get called whether they like it or not. Archer explained this. The only servant who went into the grail war with a wish in mind was Saber.

And Caster said she didn't need the grail if her wish was already granted by Kuzuki.
>>
>>119863629

On my phone, so screen shots are a pain, here, from the epilogue:

>…The air tenses up.
After the incident.
Sakura and I were carried to the surface and managed to survive.

>Rider took me to my house and replenished my magical energy.
My Magic Crest will keep me alive, even by force, if I still have magical energy.
I wasn't able to eat for a while, but I healed quickly.

>Sakura suffered after-effects from her connection to Angra Manyu and from the fact that he was gone.
She didn't panic, nor did she get depressed.
…She pretended to be all right so that he could come back at any time.

>If she'd freaked out instead of acting like that, I could've done something.
>>
>>119863665
It's an explanation about the observed universe and the recorded universe. Within the observed universe there is time, but within the recorded universe all time is on the same level. Past, present, and future are all at equal points.

First part of the explanation talks about the observed space, and the second deals with the recorded space.
>>
>>119863680
>>119863648
>>119863612
What Extra!Rin describes there has nothing to do with "outside of time" though.
That's just simple "Fate" or causality/determinism paired up with somehow becoming "omnipotent" in a limited "space"
Or I might be missunderstanding it
>>
>>119863911
>And Caster said she didn't need the grail if her wish was already granted by Kuzuki.

read it again, her wish was to be with Kuzuki, but that's exactly why she needed the grail.

In order to stay with him she needed to become incarnated, and for that she needed the grail no matter what. She had to stay with him.
>>
>>119863968
I'd say you're misunderstanding it a bit at present.

Read the second part a bit more, as it talks about higher dimensional perspective as the far side of the Moon works under the scale of recorded time as opposed to observed time.
>>
>>119863911
she hated how her life ended and when she was called by the grail she wanted to do it right. But in the end she yet again ended up making others suffer with her magic to be with her lover. She needs to grail to be in the world permanently. When she gets killed and kuzuki still stays with her she gives up on the grail because she got what she really wanted in her heart, get her love answered till the end.
>>
>>119864057
But that is exactly what causality/fate/determinism imply.
Kinda like the inavoidability of Ragnarök in Norse mythology.
>>
>>119863992

See >>119864093

After she got shot by Archer, Caster says it's ok if she lost the grail because Kuzuki already granted her wish (to be loved). It's sorta sad they couldn't stay together, but Caster was happy in the end.
>>
>>119854784
Casta is such a fine waifu, but she's already taken.
>>
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>>119852450
Why is he so perfect?
>>
>>119864216
You seem to be taking it like the meaning applies to one character who is looking from above like a god, or one fate that is written, but it's more like the past, present, and future all exist at the same time on this scale. It's not just that the causality is determined, rather the future is in the same moment as the past. The recorded universes exists with all points in time, there is no past or future. All things are present.

> And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe.
>Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time.
>>
>>119864253
my point is she really wanted the grail and that is why she answered to the grail's call. It wasnt till after she was summoned that she realised she didnt need it. But others also came because they had a wish.

Cu wanted to have a good fight (and never got it)
Medea wanted to be with someone without being betrayed (only to find she didnt need to be with someone, just being loved was enough in the end)
gilgamesh answered because he was asked nicely
Assassin came because he wanted to have some nice swordfights
Saber came because she wanted to undo her kingship
Archer came because he wants to continue to be a hero and wants to have a shot at killing shirou
Rider came because sakuras suffering was similar to hers and tried to help her out
herakles was summoned as berzerker so he didnt really have a choice in the matter
>>
>>119864508
>rather the future is in the same moment as the past.
Seemingly it doesn't otherwise playing the game would be impossible.
>>
>>119852450
Because they know that fight for holy grail is just big joke and they would get nothing and doing crazy shit just for lulz and to make Saber suffer of course.
>>
>>119864626
4th dimensional physics can be confusing

Play Ever17 some time
>>
>>119864756
Time is the 4th dimension.
>>
>>119864625
It's noted that despite being Berserker, even being insane couldn't rob Hercules of all of his "self".

Which is why he considers himself a father figure for Ilya. His intelligence is somewhere on the level of the Incredible Hulk typically, but when Hulk is in his more savage mode and can barely form proper sentences at best.

Originally Herc could talk, but Ilya used a command spell to get him to shut up.
>>
>>119864951
Even more reason

It's like a book; all points in the book are equal, the past, present, and future are all at equal points technically as time is not actually passing within the book. The results and actions are all archived, they have basically all occurred from before the beginning.

Time isn't actually passing within the book, you can easily turn the pages forward and backwards if you wish on a whim. You could skip right to the end, or go back to the beginning. The recorded universe is something a bit similar to this.
>>
>>119865126
So the mooncell is like a second Akashic Records.
>>
>>119865126
Yes but humans are also all be part of a book for a 4/5 dimensional being.
I'm not quite sure whether humans are 3 or 4 dimensional at the moment
>>
>>119865226
It's like a small version of it
>>
>>119865226
The core and far side of the Mooncell are within recorded time, while the near side of the mooncell works under observed time.

This is because the near side of the Mooncell is the side humans are supposed to interact with physically, and they can't process recorded time so well. Humans were never supposed to touch the far side, nothing living is supposed to go into the far side, as it's where all malignant information and all things the Mooncell deems too dangerous are sent to as a virtual trash dump of sorts.

It's said that the original divine spirit and Gilgamesh were both sealed away there after certain events.
>>
>>119865126
So you are saying that humans are outside of time?
>>
>>119865032
I think that berserker class gets the mad enhancement only after the spirit was put into that classes "vessel" so I think that even berserkers answer the call of the grail with something in mind.
>>
>>119865557
Only if Humans are the ones above the puzzle looking down at all pieces equally, Blick Winkle.

In the recorded universe all pieces are by nature like that, but if you're a 4th dimensional being you also tend to see things in about the same way.

Humans live in observed space however, where time moves at a one to one ratio. So, basically no.
>>
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>>119860849

Then they shouldn't have unwritten rules that people are penalized for not fighting.
>>
>>119865753
No humans by your definition live in recorded space of 4 dimensional beings.
>>
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>>119864431
Because he is king.
>>
>>119852936
We have Assassin like that in F/E
>>
>>119865865
Can you revisit the past at any point without question and relieve it as though it was the present, or skip ahead to the future and play that role outside of time, before returning to the middle of the story as all pieces are "present"?

You must have misunderstood most of this if you think I'm saying that normal humans are outside of time or are 4th dimensional beings.

I mean that's not even close to what's being said. Humans are not above the story, they are not at all points in the story, they are only "now". This is a fundamental law for the observed universe. In order to be outside of time, all points in the story have to be "now" for you, as time does not technically pass or change, as its already written and archived. For someone who is 4th dimensional, there can be no concept of past or future, rather whatever point in the time-line you are currently observing is simply the current.
>>
Shiki can kill servants. Any apostles is stronger then a mage or servant. Tuskhime is so Better view point on the universe and better written and more interesting.
>>
I'm late to the Realta Nua party.
Which patch should I use? I only ever read the original FSN with some of the stuff patched into it.
>>
>>119856190
What happened?
>>
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>>119865891
Ok, I will come at you.
>>
>>119866088
>Any apostles is stronger then a mage or servant.

Dunno why you're baiting, but I will answer you. Servants are considered on par with DAA, while having a bit higher advantage over them in combat by average. By Nasu's word Servants hold the advantage, until you reach around the top five DAA that can't be killed by conventional means.

> Q: Who'd win if the Servants and the 27 Ancestors fought each other? Also, who'd win in a fight between Bazett, a renowned powerhouse of the Association, and Ciel, top class in even the Association?
>A: Depends on compatibility, but basically Servants will have the slightly higher advantage. With Saber, Lancer, and Archer classes, we ought to be able to relax and see decent fights. In particular, Saber has THAT sort of Noble Phantasms so against guys like the 27 Ancestors that overwhelm by material quantity and alienness, she'd be REALLY tough.
>....Well, there are also some of those tough Ancestors that can withstand a direct hit from Excalibur-class attacks, but against those guys that just (emphasis on just; other stats don't match up) have wickedly high HP, Lancer-aniki'd be pretty tough.

>Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servants also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.
>A: All I can is they're both powerful... They're both beings that dwell in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation at the moment, whether one "has the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, ORT and Primate Murder have the super advantage against humanity so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.
>>
>>119866067
The recorded universe is just the observed universe viewed from a higher dimension though.
Even when human are part of some "recorded universe" for them time still moves since it doesn't exists outside of perspective
I have the feeling that we're talking past each other
>>
>>119866261
>All I can is they're both powerful... They're both beings that dwell in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation at the moment
He doesn't even know himself, does he?
>>
>>119866088
-Better expanded universe and bigger view point on the world.

-Better main characters.

-shiki is a better main character by 10 times then shirou

-Better and more interesting ideas, bigger topic's

-bigger and actual problems with the world (the fucking earth and moon creating monster's to destroy humanity, 27 Ancestors killing humans around the world and immortal, actually fucking alive and not fucking around for 2 weeks and dont do anything to humanity at all)

TUSKHIME 2 WHEN.
>>
>>119865950

It would be interesting to have a main character with a non-overpowered assassin servant. Then again, to have them pull off a believable win would require some writing prowess.

From a tactical perspective, it would make a much more interesting story as well, since assassins seem to have it harder than the other classes by default (followed by mages).
>>
>>119866261
He's just bullshtting because fate/shit
is more popular because my cooking scenes/slice of life and bland blond waifu servant.
>>
>>119866428

>Gary Stu MC killing everyone with a fucking knife because of some bullshit natural ability.

Hopefully never.
>>
>>119866261
Both shiki's can still kill any mage or servant.
>>
>>119866518
>actually has a personality
>not a shitty white knight
>has a fucking reason to be powerful
>more then a bland as fuck boring mc that can do no wrong
>>
>>119866528
Can Shiki kill Caine?
>>
>>119866580
>not even trying to conceal his samefagging
>>
>>119866518
>shiki
>a gary stu

Hes a fucking pycho murderer who kills people and chairs, he fucking is insane and can go nuts at any moment.
>>
>>119866304
I'd still say that's not quite right; that sounds like the higher dimension on an individual basis, while the recorded universe is the basis itself even if the ones observing it at the time could not fully comprehend it. The rules of the universe itself were what was changed here as they were placed within time that's outside of time, rather than the characters perception of the higher dimensional plane just being altered, or rather than a god looking down at time and dimension from below.

Technically the world of the far side also exists within the concept of infinite time, meaning no matter how much time "passes" within that space, not a second will have actually passed. This is also because they are in archived space.
>>
>>119861087
>He was called the fastest
>Now Achilles is called the fastest of all heroes

This pretty much confirms what the guy said, he is the fastest, of the 5th war of course.

AGI is QUICKNESS and speed of reaction.

Quick
1. Moving or functioning rapidly and energetically; speedy: an animal that is quick enough to escape most predators.

What actually mean nothing are statements as "X is the fastest" or "X is the strongest"

Just look at fucking Saber Alter and Gilgamesh, both are called the strongest of Servants.

Stats are what matters in terms of physical abilities, unless there is some NP involved like Achilles or some skill like Bravery.
>>
>>119866580

Why do I feel like you're referring to Kirito? MCs weren't always blank slates like that you know.
>>
>>119866645

Sounds like something a teenager would be into.
>>
>>119866442
It's funny when you try to imagine a competent assassin/competent master duo in the fifth war. I mean, four of your masters regularly attend a school without being actively protected by their servants half of the time. The only real challenge would be Illiya with berserker pretty much always around and Kotomine who is always prepared and also remains hidden for the majority of the war in all scenarios.
>>
Tuskhime actually had a plot and a soul and better writing.
It didn't include shitty shounen and slice of life scenes and the characters had more personality then shitty sterotype's. nasu seems to actually like tuskhime more and his waifu is from it. he's most likely actually writing and planning more tuskhime vns then fate.
>>
>>119866731
Shirou is basically Kirito untl heavens feel.
>>
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>>119866779
Read the vn, hes a more mature insane harry potter in a good way.
>>
>>119866927
But this is not bait, its true tuskihime is better written then fate/stay night.
>>
I prefer Shiki's story because it's smaller in scope. Sure there's battles and all, but it's never treated as this whole war to determine the outcome of whatever. It's just the life of a pimp and the wierd happenings that go on around him. Outside of the hotel attack, it never feels like anyone is ever affected outside of Shiki and the 5 girls (and whatsherface I guess).

I like small-scale stories that are much more focused on characters than events.
>>
>>119866931

I'll consider it. Then again, every time you guys say a character is insane, they don't really seem insane.
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