Find a flaw in the time travel logic of Steins:Gate.
>Protip: You can't.
I.e. She who doesn't know how the fuck to wear a jacket?
That sounds like something a person without a Phone Microwave would say.
I like this.
Also, posting best grill.
Just finished the show last week and 1 thing has been bugging since I finished it...
Shouldn't there have been 3 Okabe's running around the last time they traveled back? I read somewhere in Steins;Gate "logic" that traveling back to the same time 'negates' the previous version of yourself, but if that were true, then you wouldn't exist anymore so it's impossible. Even by time travel logic.
... I've lost sleep over this.
>tfw you will never be intelligent enough to mentally stimulate Kurisu
>Read the VN.
Speaking of the VN, I got the Faris' ending yesterday, and it kind of confused me. Namely,
why didn't Mayuri know Okabe? Changes made to the past shouldn't have reached that far back, should they?
>I read somewhere in Steins;Gate "logic" that traveling back to the same time 'negates' the previous version of yourself, but if that were true, then you wouldn't exist anymore so it's impossible.
If you physically travel back in time as opposed to "Time leaping" or sending a D-mail, multiple versions of yourself do exist in the worldline. However, there were only two Okabes in the worldline where Okabe tazed Kurisu. Where the one who stabbed Kurisu accidently is, I'm unsure.
If there are infinite world lines there would be an infinite number of chances of getting over 1. and Tuturu still dying....
Yes, an official English version was released and you can get it here (http://www.jlist.com/product/SG001LE) or Google for another retailer.
Waiting for a Steam release myself.[/url]
But Steins Gate (including the movie) only takes place over the course of a year. The cancer could be lying in wait.
Maybe the future has a time travel version of the TSA that prevents future people bringing anything from the future with them to the past, so they just seem like normal people to you and me.
No, Gaben would never release a game on steam that summarizes his time travelers career.
It's not so much a plothole as it is really difficult to explain. Episodes 23 and 24 of the anime did a rather poor job of informing the viewer of what exactly was going on. Which is a shame, since the other 22 episodes were rather good at exposition.
Gaben is Okabe?
Gaben - Gabne - Gnabe - Onabe - Okabe!
By effecting the past he affected that worlds future.
by affecting that worlds future he could have affected that worlds past.
And so on.
It's the butterfly effect, that's what makes Dmails dangerous, because you fuck up way to much.
And getting where you want is a miracle.
I understand everything except a few details in episodes 24
Really? I didn't think so. They did have a bad habit though of something happening to the characters that they understood, but not explaining properly how it happened to the viewer until a few episodes down the line.
The time machine isn't the microwave by itself.
The microwave and the CRT 40" form a black hole in whole Akihabara and send information back in time, thus shifting the world to a world line where nothing was sent into the past.
The change is insignificant on the divergence meter hence Reading Steiner doesn't activate.
You should read Chaos;Head before reading Steins;Gate before watching Steins;Gate.
>form a black hole in whole Akihabara
Ah, so that explains how they could send a D-mail even when not in close proximity to the Phone Microwave. That had been bugging me, So I guess the term "miniature black hole" is relatively speaking?
>he microwave and the CRT 40" form a black hole
I thought the CRT only acted as a carrier?
Glad I caught you in a good mood.
So is the phone attached to the microwave then sending the message back in time to the destination phone? If so, my original theory was right until the anime decided to fuck with it in the later episodes.
It's more connected than the Nasuverse, though it's only with R;N that things really start to get tied together. It is a continuing plot, with the events of each VN stopping a scheme of the Committee of 300.
He clearly has shit taste but there are definitely girls to hate. Pic related.
I felt pity for her, more than anything. She had issues and SERN ruthlessly exploited those issues to turn her into their tool. Not that having issues is any excuse for the things she did, but it's not like she's a monster or a psychopath or anything like that.
>OP starts thread with intention to discuss the time travel logic of Steins;Gate
>Thread because fuck fest of best/worst girls
OP here. I don't think it would have mattered what I posted - in a series with as many girls as S:G, having a series discussion about the show is almost impossible. I haven't seen a successful one on /a/ in years.
Because Okabe is clearly an idiot. Should've kicked the bitch out.
She is both a monster and a psychopath period. There's no excuse for her threatening, killing and kidnapping people.
I honestly got sick of her and attached gif was one of the most satisfying moments for me in anime.
The lab coat, it has powers!
Seriously though, Mopey McGee is the head of the Rounders. She hardly strikes me as an effective leader. Every time she just reports back to FB as soon as Mayuri is killed.
I swear I could name one the night after I played it, but it has been months since then...
I've been trying to remember for some time, but to no avail. I'll have to admit SG's logic is quite solid.
In episode 24, there should have been 3 Okabe's running around. Not 2. What happend to the Okabe that stabbed Kurisu?
The only flaw in the series, unless you can explain it. and "Read the VN" doesn't count.
If you haven't the VN though then you really should because you're missing out on a lot.
The plot is tight, if you feel like there's a plothole feel free to ask about it. If you aren't successful one day, try it another day/time.
Watch the special first.
>In episode 24, there should have been 3 Okabe's running around. Not 2. What happend to the Okabe that stabbed Kurisu?
Yeah, that was brought up earlier in the thread and nobody has provided an explanation yet.
Yeah, after what's been said in this thread, the VN is definitely on my buy list. Might be tricky to import given I'm not in the US, but it's possible. So you'd say the exposition is better in the VN?
>She is both a monster and a psychopath period.
No, she is quite clearly not a psychopath. She is not a hardened, cold-blooded killer. She is a passive, easily manipulated young woman who feels like she has no place where she belong nor any meaning to her life and gives her full loyalty to those who seem to give her place and meaning, following their orders even when she shouldn't. As I said, this does not excuse the things she did, but it does explain why she did those things despite not being a monster or a psychopath.
The divergence changes little by little everytime okabe does something new. However the Okabe that goes to the past, stabs Kurisu, goes to the present, gets the mail, and then goes back to the past once more are the same Okabe. There is no second Okabe as the divergence changes to prevent that from occurring
So Steins;Gate compresses memories into a mail through the black hole and then sends it back in time right? What kind of file would memory be and how does holding the message to your ear allow this memory transfer to work?
Also does Kurisu have Reading Steiner in the movie?
There's no third Okabe. All the future Okabe had to do was make the past Okabe believe that Kurisu was dead. Technically future Okabe was the stabbing Okabe, but he defibrillated her this time.
But there is no implication that divergence occurred when Okabe stabbed Kurisu, as that's exactly what happened in episode 1. Episode 1 Okabe still sees the stabbed Okabe and the divergence takes place once he sends the first D-mail.
After stabbing Kurisu, Okabe returns to the Beta timeline, and then goes back to deceive his past self on convergence/divergence day. He is returning to the exact same point in time. Now, there is a way of explaining why there's not 3 Okabes, but I don't think it's canon. It's said that all the worldlines converge and diverge at the point where Okabe sends the first D-mail. Does that not imply that prior to him sending the D-mail everything that happens supposedly takes place on different worldlines?
If so, the Okabe that stabs Kurisu inhabits a different worldline to the worldline Okabe visits when he manages to save her. That's my theory anyway.
>However the Okabe that goes to the past, stabs Kurisu, goes to the present, gets the mail, and then goes back to the past once more are the same Okabe.
How does this change anything, he should still be able to see the version that stabs Kurisu. And even if it did diverge, it would diverge from the point AFTER he stabs kurisu with his own hands. So again, why would all of what you said change anything if he time travels back to the point before he stabs Kurisu?
For those saying "Why weren't there three Okabe running around?" You need to understand that the worldline in Episode 1 was the same worldline in Episode 23. In the first episode, Okabe sees Kurisu having been stabbed. She was ALWAYS going to be stabbed by the Okabe who went back in time with Suzuha. The reason why when he went back a second time there was not the first time's Okabe there was because he had at that point already jumped worldlines to the Steins;Gate worldline in which Kurisu wasn't stabbed. He just had to properly go through the correct motions in that worldline to stay in it, which he did.
What? How come in this ONLY instance, does he jump worldlines by doing absolutely nothing? In every other instance he has to do SOMETHING to jump worldlines. But this time he jumps worldlines before he even does the thing that makes him jump in the first place?
That makes no sense.
Okabe didn't reach the Steins Gate wordline until he traveled back in time with Suzu. Remember, for the Steins Gate worldline to be established, the Time Machine thesis needed to be destroyed.
>The reason why when he went back a second time there was not the first time's Okabe there was because he had at that point already jumped worldlines to the Steins;Gate worldline in which Kurisu wasn't stabbed.
Could you clarify this please? I think I know what you're getting at, but I can't be sure.
The Okabe who accidentally stabbed Kurisu exists in two worlds: the Beta worldline where he devoted his life to find another way to save Kurisu and then sent a D-Mail to the present day Okabe; and the Steins;Gate worldline.
He didn't disappear, he just split off into two: the Okabe that received the D-Mail and the Okabe that didn't. The Okabe that didn't receive the D-Mail became the Okabe that sent it, and the Okabe that received it went on to create the Steins;Gate world line.
One thing I'm confused by though is whether the Kurisu that was found in episode 1 was the same Kurisu as episode 24 or episode 23. I imagine it must have been the Kurisu from 23 because Mayuri lost the metal oopa in episode 1 and 23. However, if seeing the real dead Kurisu from 23 is what caused the initial shift in episode 1, is there any way of knowing that Okabe's trick worked in 24? Are we meant to just assume it did or the fact the world didn't suddenly end proof enough?
I would have really appreciated it if they had some indication either way considering Kurisu was meant to be "dead" but was obviously wandering around. Even a newspaper article in the background stating that it was a hoax or something would have really helped...
So was there a world line where Okabe doesn't go back the second time after stabbing Kurisu? Then he lives his life on the WWIII world line knowing he killed Kurisu, invents the proper time machine, and sends his past self the video mail that ultimately jumps the world line to the steins;gate world line and saves Kurisu?
>He didn't disappear, he just split off into two: the Okabe that received the D-Mail and the Okabe that didn't. The Okabe that didn't receive the D-Mail became the Okabe that sent it, and the Okabe that received it went on to create the Steins;Gate world line.
Holy Christ, you're a genius! Or else I'm stupid as fuck!
That said, what worldline is Okabe in when he returns to save Kurisu the second time with the Tazer? Also, I was there any transition scene indicating the shift in worldlines (i.e. Okabe splitting in two) after he returned from stabbing Kurisu?
>One thing I'm confused by though is whether the Kurisu that was found in episode 1 was the same Kurisu as episode 24 or episode 23. I imagine it must have been the Kurisu from 23 because Mayuri lost the metal oopa in episode 1 and 23.
Yes, that is what I assumed too
>is there any way of knowing that Okabe's trick worked in 24? Are we meant to just assume it did or the fact the world didn't suddenly end proof enough?
Well, once the actions of episode 24 are completed, the Steins Gate timeline is established. Is that not proof that Okabe's deception worked?
Yes, that's the Okabe of 15 years future. With no microwave o-phone, and only one time machine trip more (where nothing apparent will change), he presumably decided to let time move forward one second per second.
Though it's a predestination paradox where he never actually exists because his existence makes himself not exist.
>So was there a world line where Okabe doesn't go back the second time after stabbing Kurisu?
Yes, it split off when Okabe received the D-mail from his future self in the Beta (i.e. WW3) worldline.
>Though it's a predestination paradox where he never actually exists because his existence makes himself not exist.
By avoiding the traditional time travel paradox, Steins:Gate repeatedly trips up on this one. But I think it gets awawy with it due to the worldlines theory. Just about.
What if it's possible but our civilization dies well before we discover how?
What if it's possible but the method of doing it is lethal, such as using a black hole?
What if it's only mathematically possible?
What if it works like the back to the future theory of jumping to another reality except further back in time, and the reason we haven't been flooded with those from the future is because we're in a gradient of the infinite realities that doesn't ever discover time travel or, for whatever reason, use it in a large enough amount to be noticeable to us?
Er, the message I got throughout the series was that only the Okabe we were following possesses the Reading Steiner. I.e. The Okabe with the Reading Steiner can only exist in one worldline at a time having possibly originated from one specific worldline.
That's not super-improbable, when you consider how easy it would be for the military to keep that shit contained and on the down low.
Time travel could possibly be heavily regulated and controlled, possibly never used and only studied.
What I mean is, at the point in time where he fakes Kurisu's death, that timeline is already the S;G timeline, because his actions HAVE to happen that way in order for it to have happened. It's sort of a destiny vs free will sort of thing. If he didn't do things properly, he would have ended up in a different worldline where his actions would have resulted in the wrong result. By virtue of him being in the S;G worldline meant he was going to succeed. He just didn't know it yet.
Sending a D-Mail into the past activated the sensors of the committee of 300.
This lead to the dystopia. How?
The dystopia leads to Suzuha traveling back in time crashing into Radio Kaikan.
This stops the conference about the time machine.
This stops Kurisu from being killed.
This leads to the dystopia because Kurisu is necessary to complete any time machine.
But wait. Kurisu not dieing is a product of Kurisu no dieing, it doesn't make sense.
That's a bullshit explanation.
FB is terrible explained.
The characters are shitheads, once they find that they can do time travel, they start messing around with it. This would be cool if they were teenagers but they were otakus and should know crap going on.
Kurisu is also a weird two timed bitch.
She shows how great she is by disproving time travel and humiliates Okabe yet she herself did research which proves it is possible which is used to fuck the world.
Inconsistency my ass.
That would contradict what D-mails even mean. If X happens, and you send a D-mail to prevent that from happening, you change worldlines. In this new worldline, why would you need to send a D-mail in the first place?
If you've gotten past Algebra 2 in high-school,
you'll at least get the just of why time travel is impossible.
First of all, people believe that the universe is "4 dimensional" because they consider time to be the 4th dimension.
This is false. The universe is 3 dimensional.
Think of a 3D matrix in which each value at every cell is a number that describes a particle.
Each particle has its own ID so that the functional side of the universe can operate on each one.
I call this Libellus Law. It states that the universe has both a functional compnent and a physical component.
The functional side never changes; it is a list of laws that control each and every interaction between each and every particle.
The physical side is a 3D matrix that is always changing, and every new version of this matrix overwrites the old one.
This implies that the old frames, or the past, cannot be accessed. And even if they did exist, how would you access them?
You're a sub-system of each frame, so you can't exist outside of the universe.
However, there is one way for a being that exists outside of the universe to see into the past.
If you were to rewrite every rule of the universe as the inverse of themselves, then "time" would begin to operate in reverse.
However, as a being that exists INSIDE the universe, you wouldn't notice.
Actually, you would be losing memories, because the synapses required to create them are destroyed as a consequence.
So yea, fuck you.
>She shows how great she is by disproving time travel and humiliates Okabe yet she herself did research which proves it is possible which is used to fuck the world.
Alpha Kurisu hates time travel because of her father who lost himself in it because of Suzuha.
Beta Kurisu researches time travel because she wanted to prove her father's thesis.
Beta and Alpha Kurisu are not the same.
>If you've gotten past Algebra 2 in high-school,
>you'll at least get the just of why time travel is impossible.
>FB is terrible explained.
I didn't watch the anime. Did that fucker get any explanation? The summary in the VN was literally "stuff happened". FB is the worst person in this story. Moeka is innocent, FB is the wretched sinner.
>That's not super-improbable, when you consider how easy it would be for the military to keep that shit contained and on the down low.
>Time travel could possibly be heavily regulated and controlled, possibly never used and only studied.
It would have to stay that way for all time, though...but maybe keeping it that way wouldn't be so hard with time travel to help.
>The characters are shitheads, once they find that they can do time travel, they start messing around with it. This would be cool if they were teenagers but they were otakus and should know crap going on.
The characters are teenagers, and why on Earth would being otaku make you smart and responsible?
How can she so perfect?
Ah, so because he is in the Steins Gate worldline he is obviously not going to run into the Okabe that stabbed Kurisu because the latter exists in the Beta worldine. You're exactly the kind of person I wanted to meet when I made this thread.
Regarding the Steins gate worldline, what was the Okabe that belongs to that worldline doing from the average bystander's (e.g. Daru or Mayuri) point of view. Because at some point in that worldline Okabe just turns up randomly on a rooftop. Does the Okabe that existed beforehand just disappear or what?
To be honest, I don't know. I think there was some weird timey/wimey shit that happened where he probably just appeared somewhere and got taken to a hospital. I haven't finished the visual novel yet, so maybe they explain it better there.
>That's a bullshit explanation.
How so? It's not improbable that only one Okabe with the Reading Steiner ever existed prior to the sending of the first D-mail. If certainly fills a lot of the plotholes.
Mr. Braun had a hard life.
Also, OP meant, "if time travel was possible". Go away.
It leads SERN to Okabe and Kurisu and they make them work on a time machine giving them access to working time travel that doesn't lead to jelly people. Which causes the dystopia to happen. Which then leads to Suzuha traveling back and crashing into the building, which stops the conference where Kurisu would have been killed.
>why on Earth would being otaku make you smart and responsible?
That's like asking why people who love watching horror movies as characters keep doing cliche horror movie mistakes.
That's okay. It's one of the few things I've left to iron out in the Steins gate story.
Just one last question. Does the Steins Gate worldlines exist both before and after the convergence/divergence upon the sending of the first D-mail? I imagine it would have to have existed beforehand since Kurisu's fake stabbing takes place before the divergence event
Yes but the conference not happening cannot happen unless Kurisu survives that day, which she only does if the conference is not happening.
Do you understand what I mean?
The only way for the conference not to happen is that the conference does not happen.
Makes sense. I was just worried the Steins Gate worldline was a new one that sprouted out of nowhere due to Okabe's actions. But I guess that doesn't fall within the parameter's the the show's time travel canon.
More accurately, only one world line exists at a time. The rest are possibilities trapped in a superposition waiting for causal events to drag them into existence, replacing the previous value into a superposition.
>Yes but the conference not happening cannot happen unless Kurisu survives that day, which she only does if the conference is not happening.
>Kurisu is stabbed
>Okabe sends the D-mail and enters the Alpha worldline
>In the Alpha worldline Kurisu surived (we'll come back to that later) and SERN tracked the D-mail
>This eventually allows SERN to build their own time machine
>This leads to the SERN dystopia
>Suzu travels back in time to stop SERN
>Suzu crashes into the building
>The conference is cancelled
>Hence Kurisu survives in the Alpha timeline despite dying in the Beta timeline
everything is determined so the act of going back in time itself won't change the divergence. Time leaping is just transferring memories back in time so it won't affect the world itself. What Okabe does at that point will however. D mails affect worldline because of the butterfly effect but I'm fairly certain that, as a consequence of it, time leaping must change the worldline to a point that it's not visible via the divergence meter.
Time leaping is sending information back in time the exact same as D-Mails, it should be able to cause a butterfly effect by the person behaving differently.
I admit 48 hours is not a lot of time to cause a butterfly ripple, but it should fundamentally remain a window to cause ripples.
Yeah, but at certain points in the series 9and the movie especially) keeping this in mind makes certain things seem confusing as fuck. It's not wrong, but it's easier to just imagine all the worldlines exist at once (and at times the characters even seem to imply that this is true)
This man is pretty much living bullshit.
Think for yourself. I'm going to tell you how time works mathematically.
Don't take my word for it, but I want you to consider it.
Imagine a folder named "universe". Now imagine you have an executable in this folder. This executable is surrounded by many other files. This executable is you.
This executable was the program needed to generate two images. These images are your children.
A new version of you is released. Metaphorically, this is the future you.
You put that executable in the same folder that the old you is in. What happened? The folder got larger. The byte count increased, nothing more.
The new executable is programmed to say...delete the old version of you.
You V1 is deleted.
The bytes are gone, or metaphorically, You V1's atomic structure is erased.
Your children still exist. Why? Why didn't they fade away?
The universe is just data.
Did you not get the whole predetermined stuff(like
Mayuri getting killed) will still happen if you are on the same world line? You need to change the world line to actually change those things. Which is what d-mail does.
>Attractor Field's theory should've prevented it.
While I agree sending a D-mail would have made more sense within the context of the show, I'm not sure how the Attractor Field theory would have prevented what they did from working.
Yes, but I'm saying time leaping should enable world line shifts, but it doesn't.
That was a time machine operating on its own principles, not a leap operating on the exact same principles as D mails.
What if in the first iteration of the loop, Kurisu doesn't die due to some other reason? It's not like a time machine coming from the future is her only means of salvation.
How so? If you follow the worldline theory and the fact that all the worldlines converge and diverge at the point where Okabe sends the D-mail, it should avoid a paradox (at least in the traditional sense)
But the attractor fields only hold the variants of worldlines together (i.e. the worldline is the rope, and the variants within it are the strands that make it up). By deleting the record of the first D-mail, Okabe shifts from the Alpha worldline to the Beta Worldline, hence escaping the Alpha Worldline's attractor field and Mayuri therefore survives.
>time leaping should enable world line shifts, but it doesn't.
But doesn't it? I mean, time leaping sends your memories back, so you're in a new world line with new memories, we just don't see the effect thingy that happens when you send a D-mail because you don't lose the memories of the stuff that happens after you send a D-mail, since you(Okabe) are doing things consciously with his new memories.
>Going from Alpha to Beta by erasing CERN's data.
A minor nitpick unrelated to your actual point: it's SERN, not CERN. It's not a misspelling, it's just that the organization in STEINS; Gate is not CERN, but, well, not-CERN.
I've been watching the anime this week and I'm at the episode in which the girl dies and he tries to stop it but cant,like the 14 one.
Does it ever get better because holy shit they're really dragging the scenario and that's really boring some times.
Yeah, it does drag on a bit. But it's worth it because it's a major plot point that influences all of Okabe's decisions from that point onwards. It's also interesting to observe how he deals with seeing her die again and again. But rest assured, he figures something out soon enough,
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you're saying that not letting CERN know about the time machine allows you to change from Alpha to Beta, being Beta, the future where CERN finds out about the time machine and creates a distopia.
If what I said is correct, by that logic I could also affirm that not letting Mayuri die allows you to change from Beta to Epsilon(idk), being Epsilon, the future where Mayuri is alive, and some other stuff happens.
Since the game denied the second possibility, due to the Attractor Field Theory, so the first one shouldn't be possible either.
the compression thing is actually the only weak part in the theory and it's clearly bullshit, you got to pretend it just works in this case.
Also everyone has the memory effect, it's just barely noticeable unless there are a LOT of timeline changes. Reading Steiner just allows for flawless memory retaining
>but you're saying that not letting CERN know about the time machine allows you to change from Alpha to Beta, being Beta, the future where CERN finds out about the time machine and creates a distopia.
You have it the wrong way around. Alpha is the Worldline with the SERN dystopia and Mayuri's inevitable death. Deleting the SERN's record of the first D-mail, shifts them back to the Beta timeline where Kurisu was stabbed and the Phone Microwave was never used beyond the first D-mail.
>by that logic I could also affirm that not letting Mayuri die allows you to change from Beta to Epsilon(idk)
But Mayuri can't be prevented from dying in the Alpha worldline. That's just something that has to happen in that worldline
To be fair, I think the compression bit is pretty okay in terms of the shows canon. But how holding a phone to your head allows the transfer of memories makes no fucking sense.
>You have it the wrong way around.
Forgive me. I always mix them up.
>But Mayuri can't be prevented from dying in the Alpha worldline. That's just something that has to happen in that worldline
Agreed. Then, wouldn't that mean as well that "SERN can't be prevented from receiving the time machine's info in the Beta worldline."? After all, "That's something that has to happen in that worldline".
The only way to make an actual change is a D-mail. Not an enter key.
>hen, wouldn't that mean as well that "SERN can't be prevented from receiving the time machine's info in the Beta worldline."? After all, "That's something that has to happen in that worldline".
Again, Alpha worldline is the SERN dystopia. Just reminding you because this will quickly become confusing if we're not consistent.
But yes, the SERN dystopia is inevitable in the Alpha worldine. That's why when Okabe succeeds in altering the worldline so that this never happens, as per the worldline theory, he is transferred to a worldline where the SERN dystopia never occurs (and Mayuri never dies). This is the Beta Worldline.
It's explained very early in the series (most people actually forget it), that when you alter the worldline, the worldline doesn't actually change. You just get transferred to another worldline where the outcome you created is the norm. Your memories are also altered, unless you have Okabe's reading Steiner.
Alright. I did make another mistake with the worldlines's names. I don't exactly understand how your post disproves my point, though.
Also, I've never mentioned the worldline would change.
>That said, what worldline is Okabe in when he returns to save Kurisu the second time with the Tazer? Also, I was there any transition scene indicating the shift in worldlines (i.e. Okabe splitting in two) after he returned from stabbing Kurisu?
I think the transition was implied rather than directly seen, because a new future opened when Okabe received the D-Mail and Suzuha told him to open it. For the first loop to exist, for some reason Okabe didn't receive the D-Mail or didn't open it. This means that either Future Okabe only existed at the end of the first loop and sent a D-Mail back in time or, in a typical Steins;Gate fashion, Future Okabe opens the D-Mail because of another alteration in time. Maybe Suzuha appearing to announce World War 3 is what made the split as Okabe would have ignored the D-Mail had Suzuha not told him he had to open it.
Time travel is very iffy because the variables which created the two Okabes could have been something very significant or very insignificant.
>Well, once the actions of episode 24 are completed, the Steins Gate timeline is established. Is that not proof that Okabe's deception worked?
Oh yeah, I know that's the proof that it worked however it still annoys me that a "dead" Kurisu is walking around and no one bats an eyelid. Then again, he only needed to deceive himself in order to send that first D-Mail to begin with so my complaint is rather moot.
Oops, realising I said something really stupid there. Suzuha being there in general couldn't have created that particular split as she was present for the first attempt. It's more likely that she didn't initially know about the D-Mail but found out about it due to some passing comment from Future Okabe in the first loop. Since we know that Suzuha did indeed come from that same future after Okabe died, regardless of whether it was first or second loop Okabe, it's likely that she realised that D-Mail was crucial in changing the future and motivating Okabe to try again. So maybe the two Okabes didn't split during a specific point in time, rather the split was dependant on whether Suzuha told him to open the D-Mail.
I'm sorry if none of that makes any sense. I adore time travel theories but at the same time it makes my brain fibres tangle like the individual threads in Suzuha's time analogy.
>This means that either Future Okabe only existed at the end of the first loop and sent a D-Mail back in time
Another anon confirmed that this indeed the case.
>it still annoys me that a "dead" Kurisu is walking around and no one bats an eyelid.
Well, she was only tazed. The thing is, nobody believed her story despite the fact that she woke up in another guy's blood. Or maybe they did believe her, but couldn't find Okabe? After all, so far we haven't been able to figure out what the Steins Gate worldline Okabe was doing between that point and appearing stabbed on a rooftop. It's the one final Steins:Gate mystery I've left to figure out.
>Deleting the SERN's record of the first D-mail, shifts them back to the Beta timeline where Kurisu was stabbed and the Phone Microwave was never used beyond the first D-mail.
In the Beta Timeline, since the sending of the first D-mail is common to all the timelines, did they also have to delete the record of the first D-mail being sent from the SERN database? (after which they disassembled the phone microwave).
What if it time travel is so complex and expensive to develope that only a Global Governement is capable of pull the necesary resources to make it happen?.
You can be sure they wont use it to do time-turism, it would be used just for basic scientific research.
I don't think receiving a D-mail triggers ECHELON, only sending them. Remember, you can receive D-mails at a point in time when the Phone Microwave isn't operational, but you can only send them when it is. ECHELON only registered the actual activation of the Phone Microwave.
>Well, she was only tazed. The thing is, nobody believed her story despite the fact that she woke up in another guy's blood. Or maybe they did believe her, but couldn't find Okabe? After all, so far we haven't been able to figure out what the Steins Gate worldline Okabe was doing between that point and appearing stabbed on a rooftop. It's the one final Steins:Gate mystery I've left to figure out.
It's likely that it took a slightly different route to the Alpha worldline which meant that Okabe and Kurisu didn't initially meet by accident. That had only happened because he insisted on going into the building to prove that he went to Nakabachi's lecture on time travel. If Okabe knew that it was all a deception, he probably spent those two weeks indoors or just avoiding that particular building as he suspected he might meet Kurisu again like he did in the Alpha worldline.
He did mention that he missed her and he suspected she went back to America, but he didn't state that he actually went looking for her. He didn't meet Moeka again in the Steins;Gate worldline or Suzuha, so it is quite likely he just stayed in the Future Gadget Lab the entire time. That or maybe meeting Kurisu was far more important to the whole plotline than we initially thought.
>he probably spent those two weeks indoors or just avoiding that particular building as he suspected he might meet Kurisu again like he did in the Alpha worldline.
The thing is, what happens to this particular Okabe when Okabe steps out of the time machine after being stabbed?
>He didn't meet Moeka again in the Steins;Gate worldline
But he does eventually. She ends up working in the TV shop sure.
>But he does eventually. She ends up working in the TV shop sure.
Oh yeah, I know they meet eventually but I meant in the space of those two weeks. Obviously him and Kurisu meeting was pivotal to him meeting Moeka at a certain point in time, but her not being there doesn't mean they'd never meet. If that makes any sense whatsoever?
>The thing is, what happens to this particular Okabe when Okabe steps out of the time machine after being stabbed?
Based on what Suzuha said we know he sought some kind of medical attention, so it's likely he was in hospital for a period of time to recover from both the injury and the bloodloss. This is further proved when Mayuri says "It's great to have you back-arin!" as though he went away for a while. He was probably released from the hospital around the time when Mayuri visited, but there's no way of knowing what else he might have gotten up to in that time.
The other Okabe would still exist in the Beta worldline as the events of episode 24 didn't directly affect that particular future, it just split off to form a new one. At least I think that's how it would work.
That is quite possibly physically impossible, but it isn't a flaw in the time travel logic of Steins; Gate. In the context of that story, time travel is quite obviously possible and does not in itself violate the story's internal logic.
>If that makes any sense whatsoever?
Are you saying that in the Alpha worldline, Okabe only met Moeka because of his use of the Phone Microwave? Since they don't use that in the Steins Gate Worldline, Okabe would never have a reason to meet Moeka?
>The other Okabe would still exist in the Beta worldline
Which Okabe is this? Because I'm just wondering about the Okabe that existed in the Steins Gate worldline prior to stabbed Okabe stepping out of the Time Machine.
Exactly what I'm trying to figure out. There should technically be two. But what happens to the Steins Gate worldline's resident Okabe when our Okabe steps out of the time machine at the end of episode 24?
The instant the Okabe whose journey we follows goes back in the past to do what Future Okabe told him to do to go to Steins;Gate, the future has changed it so that the Okabe originally in the Steins;Gate worldline would eventually become the same person as the first Okabe mentioned to prevent such a paradox from occurring.
Well it's clear that the Okabe we follow from episode 1 isn't the Future Okabe from the Beta worldline in which Kurisu dies. It's likely that the Steins;Gate worldline was thought not to exist pre-S;G because Suzuha sought out Okabe to "reach Steins;Gate" since she obviously couldn't achieve it herself despite her previous attempts at time travel.
The two Okabes exist after episode 23: the Okabe that stays in the Beta worldline after failing to save Kurisu who later sends the D-Mail, and the Okabe who manages to save her after receiving the D-Mail. Not sure exactly when these two would split, my guess is that Suzuha was with him during the first loop and didn't know about the D-Mail when Beta Okabe first received it from Future Beta Okabe. So it's likely that she knows about it when she goes back and tells him to open it, causing the two Okabes to split where one doesn't open the D-Mail and the other does. Obviously we know the one who saves Kurisu is the one who opened it, so the Beta worldline probably keeps repeating itself depending on whether or not Suzuha tells him to open it.
I thought the steins gate worldline is basically the trip Okabe takes through all the other timelines.
Like if every timeline he jumped into were parallel, the steins gate could be thought of as one that slices through them.
>It's likely that the Steins;Gate worldline was thought not to exist pre-S;G because Suzuha sought out Okabe to "reach Steins;Gate" since she obviously couldn't achieve it herself despite her previous attempts at time travel.
The Steins Gate Wordline definitely exists prior to the Convergence/Divergence event (i.e. the sending of the first D-mail). The best piece of evidence for this is that when Okabe saves Kurisu in episode 24, he is already in the Steins Gate worldline. However, this event chronologically takes place before the convergence/divergence event, hence the Steins Gate Timeline has always existed. It was just very difficult to reach.
>Are you saying that in the Alpha worldline, Okabe only met Moeka because of his use of the Phone Microwave?
Yes exactly. Alpha Okabe would never meet Moeka because Moeka's only reason for following Okabe to begin with was because of the Phone Microwave. Remember that it was his first D-Mail, shifting the Beta worldline to Alpha, which alerted SERN of what he was doing and caused all the chaos after. It's likely that FB told Moeka to be in that particular area as they assumed an IBN5100 had to be near the Phone Microwave.
>Which Okabe is this? Because I'm just wondering about the Okabe that existed in the Steins Gate worldline prior to stabbed Okabe stepping out of the Time Machine.
This Okabe would be the Beta Okabe who couldn't save Kurisu and put his faith in his past self to do it for him. In his message it's not quite clear whether or not he was aware of the loop, all we know is that he seems to understand that at this particular point in time he is powerless whereas Present Okabe might be able to do something.
Steins;Gate Okabe would have been overwritten by Beta Okabe as every Okabe was shown to be in Burdened Domain of Deja Vu. At least that's my guess anyway.
The structure of the Steins Gate worldline is separate but highly dependent on the other worldlines and Okabe's travels through them. Your analogy is good - if all other worldlines were travelling horizontally, the Steins Gate worldline would cut across them travelling vertically.
>The Steins Gate Wordline definitely exists prior to the Convergence/Divergence event (i.e. the sending of the first D-mail). The best piece of evidence for this is that when Okabe saves Kurisu in episode 24, he is already in the Steins Gate worldline. However, this event chronologically takes place before the convergence/divergence event, hence the Steins Gate Timeline has always existed. It was just very difficult to reach.
I don't deny it did exist, I just said it was thought not to because Suzuha wasn't able to reach it and sought out Okabe's help. Particular events obviously crossed him over from Beta to S;G and they had probably already reached S;G without knowing.
How much must it suck for Suzuha though, having actually travelled in a time machine however many times to reach S;G but all Okabe had to do was save the woman he loved?
I don't think Suzu was actually aware of the existence of the Steins Gate worldline while in the Alpha worldline. If I recall correctly, she only ever brings it up after Okabe returns to the Beta worldline in episode 22/23. That leads itself to my assumption that future Beta Okabe figured out the existence of the Steins Gate timeline, and hence sent the video message to his past self.
Well if you remember from Burdened Doman of Deja Vu, Okabe keeps flitting between worldlines. It's clear that the moment Okabe is aware he's in a new worldline, he's overwritten that worldline's Okabe and unintentionally changed a lot of shit already because he would be acting in a way that Okabe probably wouldn't have.
I imagine it works in a similar process to the Time Leap Machine where his memories get thrown back into another worldline's body, but there's no way of knowing what happened to the body he left behind. Was it just left as a vessel or did he carry on and assumed it didn't work? Who knows.
I'd like to think the D-Mail process is identical to the TLM because only Okabe seems to remember the shift, just like how only Okabe knows what's going to happen within the next 24 hours. I imagine that's the easiest way to think of it otherwise it would get a lot more confusing.
A problem with Steins:Gate is it never properly addresses the differences between physical time travel and Time leap/D-mail. Hence why were are currently confused about what happened to the original Steins Gate Okabe.
I could have sworn that Suzuha, under the guise of John Titor, seeks out Okabe's help because she thought he was the messiah. I figured that was a hint that she believed S;G existed, but then that's probably because Future Okabe made her believe it did.
For all we know, S;G worldline was just the theory of a heartbroken man who didn't want to accept that the girl he loved died, so he devoted a shitload of time and research into finding a way to save her. He probably knew that if multiple worldlines existed, there had to be a worldline in which Kurisu survived but also didn't work for SERN. So maybe he didn't know for certain what this particular worldline entailed, since Suzuha certainly didn't seem to know either when she came back, but he had hoped it produced a world where Kurisu and Mayuri both lived and everyone was happy.
It's nonsensical for the universe to "know" about what humans consider "major events" and having those tie to particular lines. A person dying means as much to the universe as a ball rolling down a hill. There's no reason a timeline would collapse to an event that humans deem significant.
I think the Jellyman's Files were a brief gloss over about the difference between physical and mental time travel. Kurisu deduced that humans were too small to push through a black hole, making them gelatinous, so obviously D-Mail and TLM worked by transferring "data" (being memories) instead.
Otherwise I completely agree. I did like Steins;Gate a lot but it was very obviously based on a VN as it spent too much time on Okabe's potential love interests instead of properly explaining what happened and how it all worked.
>I could have sworn that Suzuha, under the guise of John Titor, seeks out Okabe's help because she thought he was the messiah.
Yes, but in the Alpha worldline it seems that she deems him the Messiah simply because he has the Reading Steiner which he can use to "restore" the Beta worldline (they obviously don't know at this point that the Beta worldline leads to WW3) and avoid SERN's future dystopia. That's the impression I got at least.
That makes sense. So by that reasoning, only Future Okabe believes (or rather knows) that S;G exists and Suzuha was just determined to fix the worldline they were already in. Otherwise, if she already knew that S;G existed she wouldn't have been happy to leave the Beta worldline to inevitably get destroyed by WW3.
But then doesn't that prove that S;G worldline was just a delusion that a desperate Okabe happened to discover was real all along? After all, he had no basis for it, he just strongly believed it was a worldline in which Kurisu could live and none of the SERN crap would happen.
True. There was only one best girl and one nice tits girl. The rest a shit.
>fat ugly nerd won
No problem pal. I knew you were replying to me.
Sorry if I'm just tossing nonsensical theories at you, it's just been a while since I've been involved in a Steins;Gate related discussion so I'm gotten a bit hyped up over it.
Only some deaths have such importance, like Mayuri's in Alpha and Kurisu's in Beta. Deaths that don't affect anything in the long run can be reversed, like Faris' dad in Alpha (though I doubt he could be saved in Beta).
There were only 2. The first accidental stabbing branched off to the worldline where Okabe used his failure to drive him to fight SERN and send the video back to his old self.
The VN also explains this quite well and in more depth.
Suzuha was 2nd best girl. I liked her.
Fayris wasn't bad in the VN in my opinion.
>So by that reasoning, only Future Okabe believes (or rather knows) that S;G exists and Suzuha was just determined to fix the worldline they were already in
>But then doesn't that prove that S;G worldline was just a delusion that a desperate Okabe happened to discover was real all along? After all, he had no basis for it, he just strongly believed it was a worldline in which Kurisu could live and none of the SERN crap would happen.
It's very ambiguous as to where the idea for the Steins Gate worldline comes from. However, it's possible future Okabe didn't actually discover the idea of a "good ending" worldline. He may instead have just figured out how he could save Kurisu without the events of the Alpha worldline playing out - i.e. Alter the past, but don't change the outcome. And he then probably just dubbed the worldline where this is the case the "Steins gate" worldline.
Wait, you're not me!
Although it is 3am-ish here.
>He may instead have just figured out how he could save Kurisu without the events of the Alpha worldline playing out - i.e. Alter the past, but don't change the outcome.
Very much this. The VN alludes to it with him spending 15 years poring over his failure and theorizing before realizing it. The process of causality is irrelevant; only the result matters.
>Find a flaw in the time travel logic of Steins:Gate.
easy. the FINAL time loop. he should have seen himself enter the last room and stab christina. there were 2 of him in the same room at the same time, instead he got a do over.
the only time all series he gets to do a do over. every other scene is meticulously crafted for continuity except for that last one. pissed me off.
That's very true. There was no reason for Okabe to believe it didn't exist and chances are he would have just taken another stab at it if he didn't get the outcome he wanted.
>It's very ambiguous as to where the idea for the Steins Gate worldline comes from. However, it's possible future Okabe didn't actually discover the idea of a "good ending" worldline. He may instead have just figured out how he could save Kurisu without the events of the Alpha worldline playing out - i.e. Alter the past, but don't change the outcome. And he then probably just dubbed the worldline where this is the case the "Steins gate" worldline.
I completely agree. After all, a worldline named Steins;Gate just screams Okabe. That mad scientist sonuvabitch really pulled it off.
>That mad scientist sonuvabitch really pulled it off.
Exactly what I was thinking when episode 24 came to an end - "The crazy fucker pulled it off".
It's rather tragic though. The Okabe who spent 15 years developing a solution, will never actually meet Kurisu again.
Do I detect another Britfag? SUP HOMEY!
No, Mayuri's death wasn't very important in general but it is to Okabe, the only person in the series who can leap through time. Even though Feyris' dad was just as important as Mayuri in the real world, to Okabe he just didn't compare. Him making Feyris give up her father was very cruel though because, although her father was obviously meant to die in another worldline, so was Mayuri.
Okabe only really had the final say because he was the one with the time machine, not because Mayuri being alive had some real impact.
I did sniffle a bit during that episode and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Exactly. The Okabe that made all of it possible never got to see her again, whereas the Okabe who was willing to sacrifice her to save Mayuri got to keep her.
Time travel sucks that way. I suppose Future Okabe is happy so long as any Okabe gets to be with her, even if it isn't him.
>Do I detect another Britfag? SUP HOMEY!
Afraid not. I'm a skip and a jump across the Irish sea.
like any other time travel show, it relies one the fact that a special force records every moment in time and it somehow it can be access through special means(time leap, time travel, etc)
however in real life there is no proof of this, times is based on the earth's rotation and gravitational rotation around the sun, thus time isn't a force, rather a way for us humans to measure the amount of time between one point to another
E.I time travel will always exist in the realm of fiction
The Okabe who stabs Christina moves to a different worldline after he comes back in the time machine. Hence, when Okabe goes back in time to save Kurisu the second time, he doesn't see the stabbing Okabe because he doesn't exist in that worldline (episode 24 Okabe, in saving Kurisu, destroying the thesis, and deceiving his past self, has already entered the Steins Gate worldline).
Yeah, dedication is one way of putting it. Insanity is another.
When I made this thread a few hours ago, I didn't expect it to still be going hours later. The discussions being had are great though, so it's worth it.
Man, I'm re-reading this, and it's so refreshing how much thought the writers put into this. I forgot how much I liked Steins;Gate.
It's not anime related, but if you're interested about time travel stories, look up "Thousand Dollar Soul". It'll blow your mind. Although it may have more plot holes, because of how convoluted it is.
>Man, I'm re-reading this, and it's so refreshing how much thought the writers put into this. I forgot how much I liked Steins;Gate.
Once we got past the early "best girl" stuff, this turned into a very good discussion thread.
It's likely that S;G original Okabe got overwritten by Beta Okabe like in BDDJ because PM and TLN work by transferring "data" rather than physical bodies through time. Only Okabe can remember what happened when a D-Mail alters the future and only Okabe can remember the events that took place pre-TL.
S;G original Okabe probably never met Kurisu and lived in a world where time travel didn't exist because Kurisu's interest in the PM is what led to the events of the following two weeks.
Another way to think of it is what happened to the 3rd Yukki and 3rd Yuno of Mirai Nikki. Both 1st Yukki and 1st Yuno are dead. 2nd Yukki was in the game again with 1st Yuno before she died, and became a god. 3rd Yukki and 3rd Yuno are not in the game and thus never meet.
It's awesome when threads explode like this though, because it shows there are still people here who genuinely love anime rather than just enjoy complaining about it. I've been getting the impression that /a/ has been slowly invaded by the other boards or that the regulars lost interest, but apparently not.
So thank you for this thread. It's been great. Although I will have to sleep soon, which saddens me.
This is so incorrect it hurts.
Anon, if that were at all true, that would mean the S;G timeline wouldn't have had Kurisu getting stabbed, and this is absolutely false.
You are acting as if going back in time alters the past. It does not. It alters the WORLD LINE. The S;G worldline ALWAYS has what happened in it. Kurisu ALWAYS gets saved by Okabe. That's what makes it the fucking S;G worldline.
Don't listen to him, he is completely wrong about how time travel works in S;G.
People, stop this notion that ANY of the three time travel forms ALTER the past. They do not. They only CHANGE the worldline. Worldlines are 100% static and 100% set in stone for major events. If you deviate enough from these events, you end up in a different worldline because the worldline splits. You don't fucking alter the past in ANY worldline.
God it's like none of you played the game.
Wrong wrong fucking wrong stop trying.
>You are acting as if going back in time alters the past. It does not. It alters the WORLD LINE. The S;G worldline ALWAYS has what happened in it. Kurisu ALWAYS gets saved by Okabe. That's what makes it the fucking S;G worldline.
But nobody is challenging that. Seriously, the Steins Gate worldline is a constant. Just like all the other worldlines. In episode 24, due to his actions in altering the Beta worldline, Okabe shifts into the Steins Gate worldline.
ALL OKABE ARE THE SAME. Kurisu fucking explains this to you. The act of observing the worldline makes it the current worldline. THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE OKABE. ALL OKABE ARE THE SAME OKABE.
who said anything about altering the past? On the S;G worldline, Okabe exists, then another Okabe shows up, saves Kurisu, and leaves, original Okabe continues on, other Okabe shows up again and universe erases the original
Ah right, sorry yeah I made a mistake there. Thanks for pointing that out. Got D-Mail and worldlines confused with TL and linear time travel.
Steins;Gate worldline exists purely out of Okabe saving Kurisu so it wouldn't make sense for them to never meet. They "met" when he bumped into her in the hall as she stated in episode 1 and what later happens in 23 and 24.
But seriously dude, calm down a bit. Some of us are working on little sleep and haven't played the VN so I get that it's annoying but you don't need to get so stressed over it.
Stop. There is only ONE Okabe. It's all the same Okabe. It was never a different Okabe. This is WHY THE MOVIE HAPPENED. Okabe had memories of the worldline that he didn't experience and it was fucking him up.
He is the same Okabe that exists now. Changing the worldline changes what happened. Shit that happened in other worldlines no longer exist.
ALL OKABE ARE ONE OKABE. THERE WAS NEVER ANY SECOND OKABE.
My god, you don't understand the concept that memories are separate from the actual person. One second he's in the time machine because the worldine is changing and the next second he is somewhere else because that's where he is in that Worldline.
Except they both have different memories etc. So they're not the "same" okabe.
You're literally just arguing stupid semantics that don't make any fucking sense. Stop it and fuck off.
Stop thinking of them as seperate people. They aren't. They are the same PERSON.
World lines have memories associated with them. When you switch worldlines, the world goes "You fucking did this" and people's memories adjust to match it. Okabe, being an observer, retains his memories across worldlines. There is not multiple Okabe existing in multiple worldlines at the same time. There is only ever ONE worldline and a bunch of "This could have happened but didn't" worldlines you can switch to.
right. and after the one that stabbed himself went back to the future, the other went to see Kurisu. And after that, continued with his life on that worldline. Then a time machine appeared with Okabe in it. What of the other Okabe body?
Then the one who observed is different than the ones not observing.
The Okabe of the Steins;Gate experienced a different subjectivity than the observer.
Thus they are different and the subjectivity of the observer overwrites the one that isn't observing apparently.
>World lines have memories associated with them. When you switch worldlines, the world goes "You fucking did this" and people's memories adjust to match it. Okabe, being an observer, retains his memories across worldlines. There is not multiple Okabe existing in multiple worldlines at the same time. There is only ever ONE worldline and a bunch of "This could have happened but didn't" worldlines you can switch to.
Okay, so just to clarify for everybody; You're saying that before Okabe switches to a new worldlines, that nothing in that worldline exists? Hence when Okabe exited the time machine in episode 24, nothing had being going on in that worldline prior to that?
If that's the case, I'm on board. It doesn't conflict with what I've believed to far, and answers my final mystery about Steins:Gate.
Look, thinking "What happened to the other Okabe" implies that he existed at some point. He didn't. Worldlines don't run in tandom. There is only ever ONE worldline happening. They flat out don't exist until they are observed by Okabe.
The worldlines don't exist if he isn't observing them.
Yes. That's exactly it. Okabe became the observer, so he sees the worldlines change. They don't exist unless they are the worldline that is happening.
>No, I'm stoping you from saying incorrect shit. If you want to be wrong, fine, but you are wrong.
Dude, I actually agree with you. You have something quite important to say. But you're going about it all wrong.
>And after that, continued with his life on that worldline.
What? No. He went out the building, sent a D-Mail to Daru, got ejected to the alpha line, went fucking up through time space to lose an IBN5100 and get it back and un-eject himself back into Beta, then because he developed affection for Kurisu, save her life in the exact same way as the Okabe we followed.
The only difference in his life is he didn't get a metal upa.
He didn't continue with his life on that worldline, after seeing Kurisu he sent the first D-mail and started the whole thing the other Okabe already went through, that's the Okabe from the first episode, you're just seeing him from other perspectivce
>Yes. That's exactly it. Okabe became the observer, so he sees the worldlines change. They don't exist unless they are the worldline that is happening.
Good, good. I think people would have been a lot quicker to accept your theory if you hadn't come in all guns blazing. You created a lot of confusion initially.
But I must offer you my thanks regardless. You cleared up a major issue for me in the Steins;Gate story.
>The worldlines don't exist if he isn't observing them.
They do exist in terms of causal events, that is Okabe has to alter divergence then alter it back so as to gather that subjectivity to explain his actions without paradox.
In this, Steins;Gate Okabe does indeed have the slightest different subjectivity: he never won a metal upa for Mayuri.
Interesting dude. Let me ask you a question, though. If Okabe was awake the moment he arrived to S;G... And if he asked Mayuri what was he doing yesterday, what would she say?
I just got upset because I come back after not looking at this tread and start seeing people saying "Poor other Okabe, he got erased", when that is blatantly false. He never existed. Only the actions he took existed and were applied when Okabe switched worldlines.
Yes, but it's not like there was some other world Okabe running around doing this shit. He didn't exist until Okabe switched worldlines and the worldine said "Okay, now in this world line you did the following."
So basically Okabe goes into a worldline that says that explains his actions? Steins;Gate made it so that the Okabe "original" to it suffered a fatal wound not related to Kurisu according to everyone in Steins;Gate worldline?
>I just got upset because I come back after not looking at this tread and start seeing people saying "Poor other Okabe, he got erased", when that is blatantly false. He never existed. Only the actions he took existed and were applied when Okabe switched worldlines.
I must admit I made that mistake myself. I had forgotten the whole "Observer" element of Okabe's Reading Steiner.
If I may ask you another question: At what point exactly in episode 23/24 does Okabe switch from the Beta worldline to the Steins Gate worldline? I can't seem to nail it down.
He didn't 'arrive' in S;G. The worldine BECAME S;G. If he asked Mayuri what she was doing yesterday, she would tell him what she did in that worldline because the worldline applied it's actions to her.
No, he still got stabbed. The time machine probably just ceased to exist and he was left laying there in that spot.
Worldlines are a set of events that happened. They are not an alternate worldline that is running concurrent with ours. It's just a set of events that happened.
I'm not sure. I want to say the moment he time traveled the second time he instantly shifted the worldline to S;G but maybe that isn't the case. Maybe he just pushed so hard he pushed into the other worldline. Like if you are in a room with a room next to it. You push on the wall so damn hard you end up in the next room. That's what switching worldlines is. It's changing things so drastically from the previous worldline that you end up in a different one.
Because in that worldline he stopped Kurisu's dad from stabbing her. Otherwise why would S;G's Kurisu want to find him and thank him.
Remember how when they explain the... I'm blanking on the name, but events that HAVE to happen no matter what? Like Mayuri's death? S;G exists in the cluster where Kurisu ALWAYS gets stabbed, but this worldline is special because instead of her getting stabbed, he does. The outcome is still the same, Kurisu ends up in a blood puddle, but this is the only worldline where she doesn't die.
>I'm not sure. I want to say the moment he time traveled the second time he instantly shifted the worldline to S;G but maybe that isn't the case.
This is what I thought too, but Suzu continues to exist until he travels back to the future. Neither the time machine nor Suzu (as an adult) should exist in the Steins Gate worldline.
Yet at the same time, Kurisu's tazing etc has to take place in the Steins Gate worldline for the ending to make sense.
To the unobserved Okabe trapped in superposition that we never see, basically existing in the irrelevant past?
Basically that time doesn't exist, because if it did, it would cause a paradox.
There is only the Okabe who observed many world lines in the Steins;Gate line, because the Steins;Gate line can only exist through that subjectivity.
But from the moment Okabe saved/tazed Kurisu, the time machine/Suzu should have stopped existing. Okabe would be in the Steins Gate worldline alright, but he would have had to lay low for a few weeks.
Entering the time machine is like activating a save point. It says "I'm not fucking with anything else, this is the only shit I changed". The universe then looks for a worldline that matches what happened up to that point and moves to that worldline.
Yeah I don't know what the fuck he's saying. Only one worldline ever exists at a given time. The others are just a set of instructions that could exist.
By activating the time machine, he's saying "Put me in this timeframe on the worldline I just changed this one to" and the time machine goes "Sure. Here you go." It would normally place him inside the time machine, but since the time machine doesn't exist in that worldline, it places him where he would be in that worldline. AKA the hospital because he got stabbed.
but that shit is what we're arguing about. there was an Okabe on that world line that sent a D-Mail. There was an Okabe that continued to exist on that worldline after it was sent. that continued to exist for almost a month. Then a time machine showed up with a stabbed Okabe in it
Yeah you could say that. Another way of thinking is Professor Fransworth's spaceship where space around it moves and the ship remains stationary. The worldline changes to one which can explain the changes that Okabe made and puts Okabe there.
For people having trouble with the concept of the time machine, I'm going to give you an example. Do you know the radio drama that has Mayuri standing there as Okabe and Suzuha go away and then the time machine re-appears?
Think of that as a set of events that happen in that worldline. They don't ACTUALLY happen when you are outside that worldline, but when you load up that worldline, those events happen.
It's like loading a video game save. He unloaded the not Steins;Gate save file and loaded the Steins;Gate save file.
The fact that he traveled world lines is a subjectivity that had to exist.
The past of that world line is irrelevant, because the time did not exist at the ACTUAL POINT IN TIME.
That actual time was spent in other world lines. If they did not, S;G line cannot exist.
"There was an Okabe"
No. You are doing it wrong. Stop. There is not more than one Okabe. Worldlines don't have Okabes that exist. Worldlines are a set of events that happened. The 'Okabe' you are thinking that 'continued to exist' isn't an Okabe. It's a set of events.
>By activating the time machine, he's saying "Put me in this timeframe on the worldline I just changed this one to" and the time machine goes "Sure. Here you go." It would normally place him inside the time machine, but since the time machine doesn't exist in that worldline, it places him where he would be in that worldline. AKA the hospital because he got stabbed.
Very clever. But that raises the question; When Okabe goes back to alter the past in the time machine the second time (i.e. to save Kurisu and deceive himself), would he not still be in the Beta worldline? If he was in the Beta, he would surely run into the two other time-versions of himself that would be currently in the worldline, no?
Incorrect. All possible worldlines exist at all possible moments. Doing actions moves you from one world line to another. Worldlines are a list of events that occur. They are not timelines in a traditional sense.
There IS a timeline in a traditional sense, however, is the point. It is Okabe's subjectivity.
And from that linear timeline, transitions of subjectivity across worldines HAVE to occur, they are the only things that CAN occur without a paradox.
Nope. Think of it this way.
In the Beta timeline there are ALWAYS two Okabe existing at that point in time. One Okabe is always from the future.
What the time machine does is it places him at that point where the first time travel attempt. Again, it's like loading instructions. You are saying to the time machine "Hey, put me here in this position where I was in this worldline." The worldline rewinds to the point where you were at that position.
If by two other time versions you mean Okabe of that time period and Okabe from the 'present' that is unaware that he is supposed to deceive himself, then the latter is the same as the Okabe who IS aware that he's supposed to deceive himself. They are the same as the come the same timeframe. But, at that point he's not in the Beta worldline but in Steins;Gate worldline as he has the knowledge to get to Steins;Gate. And he has the free will to deviate from there as well.
This is the Beta attractor field, but it can also kinda work to explain what happened to the S;G Okabe. Remember, Okabe had to make sure the first d-mail was sent and that he went on that adventure.
Ahhhh, I see. So, he's it's like reloading a checkpoint in a video game when he goes to the past the second time around. The he does his business, hits save in the time machine, and we're off the Steins Gate worldline, right?
Yep. Again, I'm not exactly solid on at what point things switch to the S;G worldline, since that aspect of time travel is the weakest, but really, all of the 'time travel' should be called 'worldline travel' instead.
"Once we reach there, I'll most likely dissappear. I won't be able to thank you for our arrival at the 'Steins Gate.'"
This much is obvious, because at that time in SG, Suzuha would've been born yet. But, if this is the case, why SG's Okabe presents a wound, given that he got injured in Beta?
If the world had to arrange itself to create a paradox, wouldn't that be another divergence different that SG? And even if it were posible to still be in SG nevertheless, why didn't the world arrange itself for Suzuha's arrival?
I don't know what the fuck am I writing anymore. But you're wrong too.
Stop thinking of worldlines being created. They always exist, because they aren't an alternative world, but just a set of events that happen. It's just a list of instructions.
>Girlman is man
>Vegetables make woman
Pic related. Better anime.
If they had sen't an D-mail to cancel the first D-mail, the first one is cancelled but the new one brings the same effect. Echelon would recognize it as a time traveling mail and made preparations to steal the microwave.
Erasing the first one from the database makes sense since they won't have any proof it works, thus avoiding dystopia and Titor crash.
I just love the Steins;Gate literally has no flaws. It's my favorite thing that ever came from Japan. The VN is top-tier and it complements the anime real good. Mayuri's deaths in the VN were so despair inducing, I definitely had a good time reading it.
Any more "plotholes" you may want to talk about?
Didn't it have to do with Kurisu's thesis? Which was using external simulus (like sounds) to access and read/write to the brain.
So they create the memory file by wearing that headphone thing that reads all the memories (which it kind of explains away as not being as much data as you'd think), sends it through the direct link to SERN, black hole magic compresses it small enough to be able to send like a normal Dmail. So instead of a text it's a phone call, the sounds once again trigger the memory access, but it overwrites instead of reading.
I find Kurisu's stimulus triggered memory read/write thesis to be on the same level of believability as black hole data compression, so it doesn't bother me I guess.
> traveling at a different rate is impossible.
I see you have no idea how gravity works. The clocks on GPS satellites run at a different speed than earth bound clocks -- They run at a different rate due to less gravity. GPS enabled devices actually has to correct for this very real time drift.
I swear some people are just willfully ignorant of reality. Never read a book about the quantum physics that all of your current technology leverages to operate. Your head will explode from the wrongness of your prior beliefs.
>traveling at a different rate is impossible.
Do you even know Einstein's Theory of General Relativity? Did you read anything on the experiments done with clocks on space shuttles? Anything relevant to this at all?
Everyone is travelling at different rates through time every damn day.
Mang, the ending of this anime sucked so much i still can't get over it. Everything up until the last few episodes is so great but they just have to shoehorn in the OMG LE WORLDRE WAR 3!!!! bullshit.
I swear the author must have realized that he can't figure out a plausible way to keep both Kurisu and Mayuri alive so he had to resort to asspulling.
Ded thread, but still.
Nope. Echelon only tips off when someone sends a D-mail, not when it receives it. It has been already addresed here >>112482901.
Also, going from Beta to Alpha was caused by Okabe sending Kurisu's D-mail. That was the point where the story deviated from the original, and Okabe started to experience the events that ocurred in Alpha. This was possible because the D-mail arrived earlier than the divergence point in time.
However, they tried to change worldlines by erasing SERN's database. This event took place after the divergence point. That's why it does not make sense.
Did you? Seriously. It's always one second per second.
It's just that not all seconds are equal. Sometimes my seconds are smaller than your seconds because you're in a big fat gravity well. They're still only seconds.
That's what RELATIVITY fucking refers to.
Yes sort of.
The choices are not in your face and obvious like many other VNs, but rather they are controlled by deciding who Okabe texts, with what, and when.
As well as a few key decisions where the player decides if Okabe makes a call or does not pick up the phone or etc.
Basically you are the phone fairy following around in Okabe's pocket.
ECHELON, a worldwide information gathering network ran by the NSA (fun fact: in real life it turns out it's called PRISM) picked up the message from the future, which caused SERN to mobilize on the apparent time machine.
There was a group of people working on it, but I think it was halted. I checked the Android version and it seems to be exactly the same system but ported to Android. I wouldn't mind helping porting it if there was a translation.
They change worldline by erasing Okabe's message from SERN's database. I don't think it should happen, as his message is still in the database from July 28th until the day they erase it (I think it was August 15th, but I haven't recently played the VN or watched the anime) and, meanwhile, someone at SERN would find it for sure.
Not necessarily. ECHELON, like the nonfictional PRISM, is purely automated. It picked up the data, but that doesn't mean anybody managed to see the data and begin mobilization immediately. SERN did not complete their dystopia for two years past the story's timeframe, so the data may have just sat in the server until a technician spotted it for that whole time.
we agreed that there was no okabe to be erased when he changed world lines but thinking about it if the world line change is big enough then people will notice that okabe suddenly changes. I think it happened in one of the endings.
So even though there was no erased okabe... it's as if it were because to everyone else the old okabe personality IS erased by the new one coming from another world line
if SERN does not have the data in the database then they won't be able to find the lab and that wouldn't lead to them discovering time travel and that won't lead to the dystopia and that wouldn't lead okabe to building a time machine to fix things and that wouldn't lead suzuha to travel back in time.
We're talking about people who work for a top tier research institution involved in time travel, not the average John Doe.
We're talking about people who have made like a hundred jellymen despite having made no real progress at all.
They're pretty inept if they were beat to the punch by some japanese teenagers fucking with a microwave.
It was a total accident/coincidence it worked. If any of the variables weren't there like not being over a giant CRT TV and the microwave didn't turn backwards then nothing would of happend. They didn't even know it was a time machine until screwy things started to happen, so it isn't the same as them actually outclassing SERN, just them being lucky(or unlucky if you want to look at it that way).
Yeah, she got into my Dr Pepper supply one time.
She hasn't been the same since.
I hate when artists draw Kurisu with huge cowtits. Same goes for any of the Sci;Adv girls with small chests.
Too much overlooking chaos theory. The show itself was like
There was the time when she attempted to lose weight. At first, she managed to get back everything but her legs back to size.
any type of fiction that involves time travel is flawed, it goes without saying