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You are currently reading a thread in /vr/ - Retro Games

Thread replies: 42
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> Capture cards
> Upscalers
> LCD/LED monitors
> HDTVs

Tools of your trade if you're not a CRT owner.

When it comes to /vr/ consoles, how much latency is TOO much latency?
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Is it really that hard to keep a CRT around?
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>>2939608
>capture cards

Why

I mean I understand if you're making YouTube videos or something but I think for most people that's totally unnecessary.
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>>2940623

For making youtube videos
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>>2939608
I am considering trashing my CRT TV because it only has the white/yellow RCA jacks. When it comes to mono sound vs. some mild blurriness, the LCD wins every time. My old CRT monitor might reach the same fate since it doesn't work on my new PC, and I won't make room for two separate setups. I don't notice how the latency is worse on an LCD, just a bit of a compromise in general image quality. since it can still scale to any resolution without messing up the aspect ratio, but not look its best while doing so. For /vr/ Windows PC games it's not even an issue, since I can play most of them at 1024x768, which is native res with black bars.
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>>2940778
what
doesnt workon the new pc? almost every graphics card still has dvi
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>>2939608
>When it comes to /vr/ consoles, how much latency is TOO much latency?
It all depends on the game. If you are playing an RPG, you probably aren't going to give a shit even if you had a whole second's worth of lag. Platformers, Fighters, Shoot-em-ups, any game that actually requires some decent reflexes will have the most noticeable effects.

According to Carmack, people can notice 20ms of latency, so any more than that would be unacceptable for many games, and practically any latency is unacceptable for the hardcore crowd.
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>>2939608

>When it comes to /vr/ consoles, how much latency is TOO much latency?

Any.
Games were designed and tested around a normal human reaction time, not the reaction time of a grandmother. Even if you don't personally notice the latency, the game sure does, and you'll die more/get hit more often than you would if you were playing on a CRT. This is especially noticeable on shit like the minecart levels in DKC.
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>>2939608
>how much latency is TOO much latency?
Any more than original hardware + CRT. It doesn't matter if you notice it or not, 1ms could be the difference between just barely succeeding and just barely failing.

With correctly configured emulator + CRT it is possible to reduce latency below original hardware, which is arguably cheating.
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>>2941070

>According to Carmack, people can notice 20ms of latency

The image in the OP is my Dreamcast playing Sonic Adventure with a VGA adapter plugged into a VGA splitter. One VGA lead goes directly to the monitor on the left, the other VGA lead goes into an etekcity VGA to HDMI upscaler. The image is upscaled to 1080p and then fed from the scaler to my an Avermedia Game Broadcaster HD in my PC via HDMI and displayed on the monitor on the right using OBS.

I installed the splitter to test for latency because something felt "off" when I was playing the game, so I wanted to see if I was feeling the effects of input lag. To be honest going from VGA to a scaler to a capture card only introducing 10ms of latency really surprised me, I expected it to be much more.

I don't know if I have some sort of superhuman latency detecting skill, or if it was just a fluke/I was rusty from not playing Sanic for a long time.
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>>2941134
>The image is upscaled to 1080p

For what purpose.
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>>2941076
>>2941084
People like this are driving all the old users who contributed away from the board. I hope you're happy you've devoted every thread to your autistic shitfits.
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>>2941064
This is true, but not all CRT monitors have DVI inputs, and not all graphics cards support analog output for DVI to VGA adapters.
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>>2941158

I want to record some gameplay footage. I chose my capture card specifically because it has VGA input but it turns out that the quality of the VGA input on this capture card sucks major shit.

I figured if I grabbed an upscaler and captured the footage over HDMI than it might look better, and it does.

The shitty part is that while it can capture video ay 60fps at 720p, 1080p capturing is limited to 30fps, so if the game is 60fps than I record at 720p instead.
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>>2941190

>waah why do people have a different opinion than me
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>>2941312
I refuse to believe that anyone without some sort of mental disorder seriously thinks that 1ms of lag will affect their enjoyment of a game.
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>>2941318

>1ms of lag

that's not achievable with an LCD, so people obviously aren't talking about that.
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>>2941318

This.

One millisecond is literally one thousandth of a second. Unless you are literally a robot 1ms is objectively meaningless.

Between the never impulses sent from your eyes to your brain, then the nerve impulses sent from your brain to your hands, then the muscle impulses that contract the muscles in your hands to press a button you're already well past that on account of having an inferior flesh based body.

> mfw I'll never be a robot with an adapter used to directly interface with /vr/ consoles.
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>>2941084
Definitely. I've even grown accustomed to my rca crt. Nothing special about it but whenever I try a different crt I can't play for shit.

I tried am HDTV once. Never again
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>>2941309
>I figured if I grabbed an upscaler and captured the footage over HDMI than it might look better

Why? Why the hell did you think it would look better? And why don't you always record at 720p?
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>>2941357

Did you not read the post you replied to?

VGA capture on the card I have is shitty. The image is blurry and the color is off. I cheaped out and dropped $120 on the Avermedia card because the other options were either hundreds of dollars more, sold out, or USB garbage (speaking of input lag).

Also, why would I always record at 720p? A 30 fps game isn't going to benefit whatsoever from the ability to record at 60fps.
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>>2941342
Probably not on a scale of 1 ms, but consider the case of a feedback loop. Like when you can anticipate something happening and do it on time, only you anticipate it slightly off. The typical example would be rhythm games, were having input lag (or rather A/V lag) because what you see doesn't match up with what you hear doesn't match up with what you press.
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>When it comes to /vr/ consoles, how much latency is TOO much latency?
For a monitor/TV or the whole chain?

No PC game is really pushing past much lower than 40ms for the whole chain of input lag. That’s not counting connectivity issues.

As for display lag it depends how you measure it. If you took the average of the lag of a CRT from measuring it in multiple vertical position it would be just a bit over 8ms. At least for retro games that run at 60 fps and with a 60hz refresh. (240p)
Games like OoT for example would measure double since they have a longer frame transition time. (30fps around).

That’s excluding the rest of chain. controller > console > display.

Generally getting past 2-3 frames on the display end is trash.


XRGBs are your friend.
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>>2939608
1ms is the most. Anything more and the game is unplayable.
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>>2942807
Isn't a frame something like 16ms though? What makes a 1ms difference that significant?
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>>2939608
I'll admit to not knowing (or caring) a ton about the technical intricacies of various display devices. When I was looking for a new screen I did some research and was pointed towards this which is designed for gaming and is sort of a hybrid monitor/tv. It's marketed as an LED, but I think it's actually a backlit LCD of some sort.

At any rate, whatever it is works really well. If there's latency, I don't notice it. I can beat Space Harrier fine and body people over ggpo in KoF98 so that's good enough for me.

I do emulate entirely now though, so there's no consoles involved. I've never tried hooking up one of my old consoles to it.
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>>2942972
I fucked up. I meant one frame.
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>>2942975
do it, you fucking shithead.
do it. we all know you're just dying to post it
fucking post your 'beautiful pixels' close up pic

do it so i can shit all over you for the tenth time you fuck.
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>>2943030
lol was that all it took to make you mad? If you think you've ever successfully shat on me I think it's pretty funny. I like my games to look the way I like them and if anyone gets upset about that it's only ever funny to me.

But just because you asked so very nicely and I love you, here's my beautiful pixels picture for you. Bathe in the anger it brings you, that somewhere out there is someone enjoying games on a non-CRT. Really feel it!
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>>2942972
Frame time, human reaction time, etc. all are irrelevant. Any latency harms your competitiveness, because any latency can make the difference between meeting a timing window and barely missing it.
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>>2939608
>capture card
fucking youtube shitters
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>>2943046
> latency can make the difference between meeting a timing window and barely missing it.

Have any actual examples?
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>>2943046
How can you call human reaction time irrelevant? Average human reaction time is around 250 milliseconds. 1 millisecond, even 10 or 20 is virtually beyond perception. So saying .1 of a second will throw you off your game is kind of ridiculous.
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>>2943051
Depends: http://www.videogameperfection.com/2012/07/25/startech-pexhdcap-capture-card-review-added/
Obviously if you're using a composite capture card you should die in a fire.
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>>2943052
>>2943059
It's actually worse than just harming success rate in a linear way. Lets say you have "200ms" reaction time. You are not a robot, it's not consistently 200ms every time, it's more like a skew normal distribution. If you need to react to something in 200ms you have 50% success rate with no added latency. But adding latency shifts the whole probability distribution function right, and because of the skewness the success rate will drop off very quickly.

>>2943059
>saying .1 of a second will throw you off your game is kind of ridiculous
You have completely failed to understand latency. 100ms is huge. It's literally impossible for humans to beat Tyson in Punch-out! with that much added latency (yes, I know about the blindfold runs, consider audio latency too).
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>>2943080
> 100ms is huge

Not debating that, that's a full 10th of a second. What set ups add a that much latency?

As I said >>2942975 , with my set up I really can't notice anything perceptible. I haven't played Punch Out since the 80's so can't speak to that, but I switched directly from KoF '98 on Dreamcast and CRT to emulating using Mame and my new screen and it was a smooth transition. I don't drop my combos or get caught in shit I should have seen coming. If there was 100ms lag thrown in there, it would have deffinitely caused issues.
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>>2943097
>Not debating that, that's a full 10th of a second. What set ups add a that much latency?

Standard def games on a modern HDTV
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>>2943175
But I'm pretty sure KoF '98 would be considered a standard def game. I play it with nothing noticeable at all. Certainly not 100ms of lag. Ditto with Space Harrier and other old fast paced games like that.

Also I don't understand where the 100ms of lag would even be coming from. My monitor hooks directly up to my laptop I'm playing on. I honestly can't see any difference in latency between my laptop screen and the big one. Maybe it's there, but if it's not interfering with any games I'm playing then I fail to see how it's supposed to be a problem.
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>>2940613

It's fucking heavy. I had to move a few years ago and I was doing it all myself. Couldn't life my 27 inch WEGA and carry it down three flights of stairs so I had to leave it.

I'm not like super scrawny or anything. They're just heavy as fuck and really bulky/awkward too.
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>>2943216
Try hooking an actual console up to that thing and see what happens though.
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>>2943261
Okay, that would certainly make sense. But that's also a completely different scenario from what I'm talking about. Of course you'll have issues trying to hook a piece of electronics up to anything it wasn't originally designed to work with.
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>>2939608
The amount of lag that's acceptable really depends on the game your playing. With the right game anything more than a frame can be noticeable and anything over 3 can be annoying. For others it doesn't matter much and you might not even notice a full frame.
Far worse than lag is the shit picture you get with older consoles unless you spend a shitton on an an extra piece of hardware that still introduces lag.
Thread replies: 42
Thread images: 6
Thread DB ID: 466066



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