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You are currently reading a thread in /vr/ - Retro Games

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In this thread we discuss clever techniques in games that squeezed every ounce of performance out of limited hardware. If there was ever a time you were playing a retro game and asked yourself "how did they do that?", post it and we'll figure it out.

Impressive graphical effects, sound, and implementation details all welcome. Bugs, although unintended, can be interesting to understand as well.
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Inevitable Crash Bandicoot post.
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I'm sure someone remambers knows the details better than I do but the physics of your ship alone is amazing and IIRC this game goes around the NES sprite limit by soft coding every single object on the fly.
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This. How the hell did they do Sonic 3's collapsing section at the end of Marble Garden with the VDP? There appears to be 3 layers; the background, the static foreground, and the falling sections. My understanding is that there are only 2 layers on the VDP. Is the falling section composed of sprites? If it is that is very impressive for circumventing the perscanline sprite limit flawlessly on so much terrain. Anyone know about this? And I am _not_ talking about the effect seconds before the boss fight when the level completely falls away.
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>>2934763
Planes are composed from tiles, and it looks like they "collapse" the tiles of the plane. I think...
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Several effects in Toy Story for the SNES/Genesis. I know how the parallax floor was done, but not how they did the furniture. It looks like a 2.5D game.

>>2934740

Inevitable link to that blog post that explained how they compressed the levels and did the collision detection.

>>2934763

I've never played Sonic 3, but they probably erased background tiles one at a time and replaced them with identical-looking sprites.
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>>2934790

And 5 background layers + a smoothly rotating sprite
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>>2934796

And a 3D game engine with more features than Wolfenstein 3D's engine while running at 60fps and near native resolution.
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>>2934804
>>2934790
I looked to see if the game used a coprocessor. There isn't one. Wtf kind of voodoo is this shit? Great stuff, I'll look into it. Never thought I'd ever be interested in checking that game out.
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>>2934829
The whole game yells TECHNOLOGY.

I mean, it get brought up a lot, but I still can't deal with that intro music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr4V1c2VqA
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>>2934790
>>2934796
What the hell, this is amazing. Reminds me a lot of Clockwork Knight. Gonna have to check this game out.
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>>2934790
>>2934796
>>2934804
Is this the genesis or the snes?
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>>2934829
Pre-rendered stuff if used correctly makes a game look amazing. I personally think it would be less impressive if it was hand-drawn.
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>>2934884
The real nazi pagan witchcraft is that it's on both, and have virtually identical gameplay with minor graphical changes and a few extra levels differentiating them (per wiki)
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>>2934790
Travelers Tales + Psygnosis

genesis fmv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DojpdhEWltE
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>>2934895
Yes but it's till go all the effects going on.

>>2934901
That's amazing. I suppose they do some scanline tricks+line scrolling for the genesis and some hack of mode 7 in the snes for the 2.5D stuff (is that even possible)?
Does the snes one have an extra chip?
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>>2934790
I can't believe /vr/ is convincing me to see a game I dislike in a new light rather than trying to make me hate a game I already like. Good stuff
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I still find the tower levels in Mickey Mania very pleasant to look at, but I'm still unsure how they faked that rotation (the planks look great, shaded and everything).
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>>2934790
Look for a sprite/tile sheet for the game. Chances are you'll see that they have perhaps 3 or 5 different angles for the background objects and they are layering them cleverly to give the illusion of 2.5D rendering. Pre-calculation was the secret sauce to the vast majority of "how did they do that?!" in the 80s/90s. Often you can replace all the expensive multiply/divide bits of the code with lookup tables generated on load. They are often very restrictive about how you can move around in a level so that the limitations of this approach aren't so apparent. For the wolfenstein section, I imagine that it's pure software by an ASM guru. It's only a very small chunk of the screen that's being drawn and well within the capabilities of even the SNES cpu.
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>>2934956
>by an ASM guru
I mean, weren't all the games programmed on ASM?
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>>2934961
No one programs in ASM, silly, that's machine code. They write in C and translate it to computer bytes.
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>>2934963
Euh.. Assembler was very common? Even the Dreamcast dev kit has assembler tools and docs.
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>>2934963
>No one programs in ASM, silly, that's machine code

And what's wrong with programming in machine code?

>They write in C and translate it to computer bytes
>trusting C compilers producing anything close to optimized in the 90s
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>>2934939
Been done well before on even more limited hardware
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL1JlE66fBI
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The 3D models on Evangelion 64 still amaze me, they look better than many 6th gen models I've seen.

How?
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>>2934994
I haven't played that game in years, but there isn't much else on screen in these segments right?
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>>2934996

that particular pic is from the model viewer, but even the in-game models look pretty amazing.

The PS2 smash clone game has shittier models.
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>>2934994
>>2934996
>>2935001
Why the hell didn't they release this gem for the Dreamcast? Instead they made some shitty typing game in Japanese.
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>>2935006
The game plays like shit mate.
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>>2934934

It helps when all the Amerishits are in bed. :)
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>>2935013
Man I just saw some footage and am pretty disappointed. I had been thinking the game was like another Tech Romancer.
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>>2935013

It plays alright. If you've played the Ultraman games for SFC, it's basically like that but more realistic.

If you try to play it like a Mortal Kombat game, then yeah, I guess it "plays like shit".
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>>2935014

Toy Story is an american game.
And australians are some of the worst shitposters and console warriors.

Not even a murrican myself.
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>>2935025

No, Australians being shitposters is a meme unto itself. Your real beef lies with the burgers.
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>>2935030

Australia-kun would suggest otherwise (Unless he was a very, very elaborate troll falseflagging as an australian, but I doubt it)
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>>2935030
>real beef
>burgers
I dunno, burgers taste like fried paper.
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>>2935034

You're obsessed with Australia-kun.
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>>2935038

I'm not, but he is one of the few distinguishable trolls on /vr/ and he's from Australia.
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>>2935041

Never saw him once, been here for about 6 months. You wouldn't be lying to total strangers on the internet now, would ya sonny?
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>>2935042
>been here for about 6 months.

lurk more
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>>2935046

Sniff my slimy sack. :)
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>>2935053

I'm not a pedo
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>>2935060

I'm over 18. You have no excuse. Come over here and do your duty as a god-fearing citizen and tongue-wash my wrinkly old testes.
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>>2935074

I'm a hairy, high test man.

Are you still okay with that?
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>>2935060
This is actually the worst comeback I've ever heard.
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>>2935085

then you need to lurk more
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>>2934902
SNES FMVs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzAhb4Bcp6Y
https://youtu.be/t-x4e82MxvI?t=40s

And how about Game Boy Color.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT_Gk87JdK8
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>>2934902
For a while I just thought that it was an animated gif image, it'd certainly make a lot more plausible sense

>>2934872
Shit like this is why I wish there had been more European developed games for the Genesis/Mega-Drive, they could get so much out of that aged black box that nobody else could
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>>2935093

Now you need to lick his crack, sack, and back...In that order....
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>>2935231

>his
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>>2935236

There are no womyn on the internet. So yes, "his".
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>>2935239

My point wasn't that "he" wasn't a male, (You).
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>>2934989
That looks amazing
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>>2935014

I'm an amerifat, emphasis on fat.

This level's exclusive to the Genesis version. The landscape is a bit weird for a suburban road, but the smooth scaling is way better than, say, Space Harrier 2's.
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>>2935521
>way better
how?
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>>2934934
>dislike
why?
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>>2935521
Maybe because there's actual scaling and not pre-drawn sprites for different distances?
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>>2935549
looks like >>2935535 has a point. That webm seems to show distinctly different sprites with distance thresholds when they change and no other scaling.
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>>2935556
It reminded me Road Rash, there is a video, which shows that Road Rash used to use scaling too. This game is good by its own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP0aWO-ny6Q
>>2935549
How did you make a WebM?
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Conker's Bad Fur Day

Pretty much everything Rare learned to optimize the N64 in one game.

Ridiculous number of simultaneous true dynamic lights by microcoding the RSP T&L engine to the metal.

Multiple directional scaleable shaped shadows.

Some basic pixel shader noise effects (used to make some directional light volumes appear more foggy/misty)

Real time MP3 audio decoding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nek5y4Q0mog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVPHmok3hxA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YRGbfufHG8
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>>2935581

I take Youtube videos and run them through gfycat.com
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>>2935594
The most impressive thing about this game to me is still Conker himself. I think it's his hands. Seeing fully rendered hands with individual finger movements in real-time was a little crazy. Most characters in every other game, including every other character in Conker's, all have those mitten hands that look like shit. But most of the time Conker's rocking individual fingers.

Even things like MGS and Splinter Cell the following generation cut corners there with conjoined fingers and almost every character's hands locked up like they're holding invisible guns. What else had cool hands?
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>>2935521
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8nLpO-WaUs
The GBC is also really impressive.
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>>2935704
seen the fish files on a real machine?
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>>2935709
Not him but I have the game. Except it is not backlit, it is the same thing.
Also, on my AGS-101, it feels exactly like the pic.

>>2935704
I have toy story racer too. Very impressive.

Also, Days of Thunder is in full 3D on the original game boy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O74v0n2mo8
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>>2935732
>same thing
same thing as what?

>AGS-101
That's for SNES ports. Don't mistreat your GBC games like that.
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>>2935740
the same thing as the sharp emulators screenshots.
> Don't mistreat your GBC games like that.
What ?
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>>2935793
sharp? It's an LCD, sharpness is never an issue. Color reproduction is.
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I'm sort of surprised this hasn't been posted yet, but I guess it's because most people into "tech voodoo" probably already know of it.

Quake 3 Arena's fast inverse square root:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laVpV1PFziw
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>>2935807

>i = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 ); // what the fuck?

Never fails to make me laugh.
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I enjoyed this article.

http://www.racketboy.com/guide/games-that-pushed-the-limits-of-retro-hardware
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>>2935826
Can I add some articles about rad techniques too?
http://www.extentofthejam.com/pseudo/
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Sin & Punishment on N64 was fucking gorgeous. The ship section and astral plane section blew my mind, being used to N64's small draw distances and blurry textures. The cutscenes and all are remarkably high poly.
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>>2935872

Nice to see Enduro get a shout-out, it's a very impressive game.

The math is a bit over my head, though.
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>>2935917

>mfw playing in frameskip mode

actually I haven't been able to unlock it yet, but I've seen videos and it's fucking crazy
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>>2935653
I'm personally fond of the in-game shadows, can't tell you how many times I thought BFD looked like a PS2 game because of it
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Bumping with Crash Bandicoot 3. It's no PS2 game, but that draw distance is incredible for a PS1 title.
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>>2936615

Forgot the image
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>>2936617

I think that's what makes Crash 3 look worse than its predecessors, along with inferior art style.

But sure, from a purely technical point, bredy gud.
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>>2935549
Space harrier looks cool, but the implementation is actually quite simple.

For a given perspective, the floor is composed of a background whose graphics are actually static and composed of many more than 2 colors, and the color palette is rotated every few frames. This gives the illusion of the ground moving. If you were to fill the floor's palette with random colors, you'd get a hot cosby sweater on the ground, not a checkerboard.

The sprites are mip-mapped so that they don't have to be scaled. This means that there are several copies of the enemy sprites at different distances. The distance the enemy is from the screen determines which size sprite to use to give the illusion of perspective.

The 3d nature of the game is just that, the game keeps track of a 3d playfield. You don't need a fancy computer to do 3d math; it's just 2d math with an extra coordinate. Yeah vectors!
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>>2935704
This looks impressive, but there is no doubt in my mind that this is essentially an fmv movie reel. To prove my point, it would be impossible to change the perspective.

Still, an uncompressed movie on a GBC game would mean a shit ton of memory, which means some clever programming would probably have to be done to fit on a real cart and play at an interactive frame rate.
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>>2936615
>>2936617
I'm sort of in two minds about the Crash series when it comes to technical merits.

On the one hand Naughty Dog DID used all of the tricks they could to make the game look as good as possible by not having a true real time rendering engine, but on the other hand other developers still tried to do everything in real time while coming up with tricks to make their games look almost as good.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, Crash's engine boots performance by not calculating clipping, culling, visibility or depth, which are normally intensive 3D operations. The reason is that because Crash's levels are linear with a static camera that follows the same path every time and never deviates (except for the occasional branch) Naughty Dog pre-calculated 3D data on the disc for every frame as you move through each level. That's why it's one of the few PS1 that will freeze if you remove the disk - the engine literally cannot function without that pre-computed CD data.
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>>2937014
it's a hybrid of realtime and FMV. You got the rasterizer working in real time, so you get all the benefits of models and textures (essentially really awesome compression, and interactive environments to some limited degree), while also getting benefits of FMVs (high quality visuals, because the hard math was done already). Sadly you also get all the disadvantages of models and textures (blocky look, since you're subjected to the limits of the rasterizer) and all the disadvantages of FMV (rails).
It's a good and worthwhile approach, in my opinion, that too few games used.
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>>2936794

I know, I was comparing it unfavorable to the Toy Story level, which either scaled the sprites up via software or had a shitload of sprites for almost every possible distance (probably the latter due to the fluid animations in the rest of the game).
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>>2937149

And more Toy Story. This level has a gigantic, albeit hideous Angela Anaconda-tier NPC walking around with smooth animation. It might be using vector art like Another World, I'm not sure. Nor do I know if it's using sprites or if it's a giant background.

The soundtrack is worth mentioning for its high-quality samples, although the guitar(?) is a bit shit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiDgEIPBFbk
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>>2937161
Is the game good? Also the way everything moves...It's like honey to me
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>>2937168

It's pretty good. The story is pretty faithful to the movie. The gameplay changes every level, which keeps things exciting, but not everything works. The Pizza Planet stealth section is very repetitive: you saw everything that level had to offer in that webm. The RC car sections can be a pain in the ass due to the tank controls and constantly draining batteries. The camera is zoomed in a bit too close, and there's loading screens on the SNES version (though at least they were nice enough to tell you about the level while you wait).

Oh, and there's no save.
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>>2937161
That's definitely a windowing effect coupled with HDMA.

The SNES had two windows whose intervals could be independently set and logically combined to clip either backgrounds or objects on a perscanline basis. It looks like they clipped all backgrounds and objects within the legs to reveal the null background color (the single color behind all backgrounds). The legs are animated by pointing to different HDMA data each frame of animation. Either this data is hardcoded (likely), or computed on the fly by drawing the window intervals using lines (less likely, but doable).

that could be applied every scanline to
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwZErWZXRh0

Red Zone on the Mega Drive blew my mind.
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>>2937021
>rails

Rails are not a disadvantage. Crash games are courses where you go from point A to point B. They felt like 3D versions of older platformer games.

Mario 64 introduced the idea of games as collect-a-thons that wore itself out FAST. The best Mario 64 levels were the bowser levels which were courses from point A to B. The whole game should have been those.
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>>2937279
Yeah but Crash is on rails to the extent that you can't even adjust the camera angle
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>>2937207
You forgot that the dudes shoes are smoothly scaled.

The game is full if insane tech effects like that, you also have a doom clone level, several racing ones, and the genesis version has an amiga tracker playing the title screen music.
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>>2937207
>That's definitely a windowing effect coupled with HDMA.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were bigass sprites. The animation is too smooth on parts like the shoes. The 16-bit Toy Story games were known for having extremely big sprites and smooth animation reminiscent of the movie, they were also one of the biggest carts on either system (which also makes them a good choice if you want to build your socketed cart). So, they'd be certainly capable of moving that smooth graphics.
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>>2936159
>can't tell you how many times I thought BFD looked like a PS2 game because of it

N64 has really strong T&L capabilities (Dreamcast is not even a full 3x stronger in that department), it's by far the best part of the console's technical features. So that's why really optimized games like Conker look like mini PS2 games (PS2 itself had T&L as its strongest point) in terms of polygon complexity and lighting.
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>>2937161
>Angela Anaconda
Christ that's a name I've not heard for a while.

Mrs. Brinks and The Phantom from Flying Rhino Jr. High are voiced by the same man. No type.
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>>2937316
Nannete Monoir? I remember them digivolving in the Digimon pre movie.
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>>2934747
Explain
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>>2937279
>Rails are not a disadvantage
when you develop a game on rails you deal with the effects that the player can not, and must not, change the view in any meaningful way, which limits explorative gameplay and available stage size. Change of pace is occasionally possible, within limits. Sometimes not even that. It is virtually impossible to introduce any kind of backtracking mechanisms, as the view has a defined "forward" direction. All that makes it very difficult to do dynamic gameplay. For example an engine may or may not be able to remove objects from the stream. FMV rail shooters try to hide that problem with quick camera motions or long lasting explosions covering up the unharmed object.
Rails allow for massive detail, be it prerendered or precomputed, but there's a cost to it.

>The best Mario 64 levels were the bowser levels which were courses from point A to B
You're confusing A to B with rails. Linearity is not a problem, plenty game mechanics are linear, and for good reason. Rails are a specific subcategory, where there's very harsh limits on the linearity.

>Mario 64 introduced the idea of games as collect-a-thons
Crash looks pretty much like a collect-a-thon to me.

For the record: free roaming is not "an advantage" either, the very phrase you seem to imply that I said "being on rails is a disadvantage" is nonsensical. As you hinted, free roaming becomes hell for level design, because the player movement is much harder to predict. You get lower quality visuals, due to the overhead for a roaming 3D engines (even lower if you include streaming) and so on.

I'm frankly getting rather tired of people who are stuck in their black and white thinking, that take it whenever any negative aspects of a mechanism are pointed out, they turn it into a fucking duel of what's better or not. Learn some fucking nuance, learn the advantages and disadvantages of mechanics, learn that there is more beyond A good, B bad.
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>>2934963
Not really. Even with C you wouldn't get the full potential of the SNES out
>>
This is an interesting thread and I'm enjoying it very much.
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The animated intro to Sonic 3D on the Megadrive blew my mind back in the day. Although it looks pixellated as fuck I always wondered how they managed to do it with the MD hardware. I remember hearing that it took up 3/4 of the cart memory on its own.
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>>2937340

This. C/C++ was a 5th gen thing.
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>>2937418
C/C++ can't "get the full potential" of modern hardware either. It's simply a trade-off, control vs. complexity. That's why good engines, probably even back in the days, are tiered. There's a very good chance that a SNES RPG engine was coded in ASM, while tools were written by the devs for the authors, so they can do the state machine on a higher level, and it would be compiled.
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>>2937281

You hardly ever miss that ability, though. Only when you have to backtrack in some levels (not the boulder levels, the camera has good enough coverage there).
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This ran on old shitty PC's as well as it does these days. It had 3D environment and could display a fuck ton of sprite enemies at the same time, record their position, etc...

It's good programming. It was released in 1998.
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>>2937415
>Although it looks pixellated as fuck I always wondered how they managed to do it with the MD hardware. I remember hearing that it took up 3/4 of the cart memory on its own.

I recall it used half the screen resolution magnified up. And it's just streaming in graphics, you can do that even on a C64, the only obstacle is the size it takes up on the cart/diskette.
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>>2937447
>could display a fuck ton of sprite enemies at the same time
Sprite limits are a part of sprite based rendering hardware. PC/DOS just does pixels, and you can draw how many sprites you want, but you have to do it in software.
Pic's 3 years older, runs at the same resolution, and has a ton of sprites on this very screen.
>>
>>2937447
Not a good example. RPG engines are traditionally outdated. In 1998 Quake 2 was already a year old. That was accelerated full motion 3D rendering with colored light sources and much more.
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>>2937418
Some Genesis games were written in C (notably Ecco the Dolphin). The 68000 CPU is much better suited to C than the 5A22. But even so, Ecco didn't have a lot of sprites on screen most of the time, and in the rare cases it did it had slowdown.
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>>2937458
Magic carpet also had massive framerate issues, in addition to game speed being tied to framerate. FPS would regularly drop down to ~1-2 when sieging enemy castles.
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>>2937512
it worked on my machine (80486 at 40MHz), no issues with slowdowns. Also, today you can max the game in DOSBox trivially (have to, in fact)
>>
Another page you folks may like is;
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/GeniusProgramming

Yes, it is tvtropes, and it contains non-retro games, but it still has many great retro examples, like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFwbfN18x0I
>>
>>2938227
terrible example, due to the restored audio. Get your hands on the original, because that's all you hear when you boot up the game. Also, that intro seriously FUCKED the style of the game. It clashes badly, destroys the original intro. It was a waste of cart space
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>>2938227
Most of those were written by people who clearly have no idea what they were talking about.
>>
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>>2938227

There's a lot of mountstupid.png on there, but Exile's entry is correct. It feels like a modern indie game instead of an 80s home computer title.
>>
>>2937338
I'm going to add that in bowser stages, going from A to B can be done in more than one way.
>>
Pioneer Plague, one of two games on the platform that used HAM mode for 4096 colors. Though the answer to "how did they do that?" is probably "by sucking".

Shoutout to the soundtrack for sounding like a bunch of deaf kids had broken into Prince's studio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWFhvJ8yWyE
>>
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>>2937279
The Bowser levels are where Mario's abilities like flying and wall jumping could have been really fun/rewarding. Just collecting the red coins in those levels was league more satisfying than jumping into whomp's for the 8th time
>>
>>2934804
That doesn't look 50fps and there's basically nothing going on on screen, unlike Doom/Wolfenstein.
>>
>>2935549
applebee's is disgusting

except the quesadilla and cheese pretzel appetizers
>>
>>2934620
HOW did they get Quake II to run better than Doom on the PS1?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYc5TC2QwAE
>>
>>2939349
looks like the levels are custom. They also have a severe case of tunnel vision to keep the polygon count low
>>
>>2939349
PS1 (PSX) Specifications : CPU - 32-bit MIPS (33mhz) GPU - 32-bit R800A (33mhz) System RAM - 2mb Video RAM - 1mb

PC Minimum Requirements : CPU: Pentium® 90 MHz processor or higher or Athlon® processor 16MB RAM required for Windows 95/98, 24MB required for all other supported operating systems

Even when considering the normal power gap between PC/console, this is insane that it ran so well. Quake II was a benchmarking title for a number of years on the PC until Unreal Tournament/Quake 3 came out. The original Unreal was a lot tougher, and more graphically impressive, but it never caught on with benchmarkers. Unreal was originally going to be ported to the N64, but as the game neared release it was obvious that no 5th gen console could even come close. It probably could have received a PS2/Dreamcast port, but in some ways it could be more demanding than UT99.

I
>>
>>2939286

It looks like it's a lower framerate because it was taken from a youtube video.

The Genesis version really does have a lower framerate, but it's larger and has additonal effects.

What taxes performance of a raycasting engine isn't drawing sprites, but the number of rays it casts. Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and uh, Noah's Ark 3D look blurry as shit on the SNES.
>>
>>2934939

>He never played the Playstation version with The gimicky 3d levels
>>
>>2939368

Compare both versions to Jurassic Park on the SNES. You'll notice that it lacks the fog and floor texturing, and runs at a lower resolution and framerate. And the 3D sections are half the game, versus a single small level in Toy Story.
>>
>>2938293
They even put that Yahtzee faggot's shitty AGS platformers on the list even though they involved literally no programming at all.
>>
>>2939363
>Unreal was originally going to be ported to the N64, but as the game neared release it was obvious that no 5th gen console could even come close.


There are plenty of N64 games that look better than Unreal. The Legend of Zeldas, the Turoks, Banjo Kazooie, etc
>>
>>2935704
Nice. It even looks really playable.
>>
>>2939380

>GooglecardboardVR.gif
>>
>>2939380
toy story lacks actual gameplay, you can only interact with walls and doors
it's just a tech demo that freed up a lot of cpu power by barely doing anything outside of graphics rendering
>>
>>2939394
>Turok

There's no restriction on draw distance in Unreal and the texture detail is incredible. The only thing in Turok even comparable are the animations in Turok 2. And they nearly kill the N64.
>>
>>2939380
the top and bottom are mirror images in toy story, jp looks like full height wall texturing
>>
>>2936819
>This looks impressive, but there is no doubt in my mind that this is essentially an fmv movie reel. To prove my point, it would be impossible to change the perspective.

Yeah, if you want a more high-res example of this try the Hot Wheels Stunt Track Driver game on the PC. That game is fully FMV based.
>>
>>2939469
wow, I didn't even realize, good eyes, and well played by the devs. Because they still need to use tiles as output, and because the SNES can natively flip tiles, that mirrored output comes "for free"
>>
>>2939472
if you want quality FMV racing, look at MegaRace 2
>>
>>2939469

Good point with with the mirror images, but it still has some semblance of floor and ceiling texturing whereas Jurassic Park does not.

Not to shit on Jurassic Park though, those 3D sections were awesome. Too bad it was a long-ass game with no saves.
>>
I've always wondered how on earth they made the peeping hole from Kafei's hideout look into the Curiousity Shop in MM.

There's no transition or loading screen. I assume there's a copy of the shop that's connected to the basement of the Laundry Mat.
>>
>>2939518
the joy of virtual 3D objects is that they're not subject to real world visibility rules
>>
>>2939349
>HOW did they get Quake II to run better than Doom on the PS1?

Because the detail in the levels is severely cut down. They added walls to prevent you from seeing too much. Oh and the lighting is not truly RGB like it is on PC.
>>
>>2939627
RGB only with 3D accelerator. software renderer was brightness/white only
>>
>>2939631
The N64 version could have been the best if only the animations weren't so horrible. It's got the full RGB lighting and the detail isn't badly cut down.

The original soundtrack wouldn't have hurt either.
>>
>>2939373
What is this, The Cure's album cover?
>>
>>2939637
>The N64 version could have been the best
Resolution, of render target and textures. For PC-native 3D games the console version will always have difficulties to keep up
>>
>>2939646
I mean relatively speaking for people without a 3D accelerator card.

The PS1 version of Quake 2 is better than the N64 version because the PS1 version is nice and polished while the N64 version is really inconsistent, with nice features here and there but really nasty downgrades elsewhere.
>>
>>2939653
even without an accelerator the Windows version has resolution on its side. It also has perspective correct texturing, which is a bit of a difficult thing for the PS, and handles considerably larger areas than the PS version. The PS version looks more like a proof of concept for a tunnel fps
>>
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I'd post some impressive-ish Spectrum games, but already I know how they did everything.


>"The sprites?"
>"Through software."
>"The scrolling?"
>"Through software."
>"The scaling?"
>"Through software."
>"The music?"
>"A 1-bit clicker with only on and off states. Basically through bloody software."
>>
>>2939662
point of the PS1 version was for people who didn't own a good CPU
>>
>>2939672
That framerate is authentic? It looks unplayable, and I'm able to play 12fps games without a hint of a complaint
>>
>>2939684

I only have an emulator, but I'm pretty sure it is. The Spectrum was the cheapest color computer you could get in 1982 and that game was based off the top-of-the-line Star Wars arcade game.

Fat Worm Blows A Sparky runs quite a bit better.
>>
>>2939704
yeah, that framerate looks much more playable. I like the Spectrum's approach to color. Made for some interesting challenges for the graphics artists.
>>
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One thing that always impressed me was the boss of the third shmup stage in Turrican 2 on the C64 which had 3-4 background layers scrolling in every direction at high speed.
I can't think of any other game on that machine that did that.
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>>2939716
You know what?
The C64 Turrican games as a whole are a case of "how did they do that?".
>>
>>2939672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFR9h1SrcIA
Light Corridor is also a cool game.

>>2939721
>how did they do that
>they
Your god damn right, Manfred Trenz so good we gotta use the pluralis majestatis.
>>
>>2939349
Quake 2 is polygons. PS1 can handle polygons. Doom for PC is a column based 2.5d renderer, not PS1's cup of tea. It was optimised for 386 with VGA, using Mode Y to make use of the faster VGA memory. Porting Doom PC code the PS1 means getting rid of most of the renderer completely or adapt it to make it work but with hindered performance because it doesn't use the available hardware optimally.
>>
>>2939854
should be trivial to ignore the whole raycaster thing and just render floor and walls using polygons, no? Probably causes problems though with viewing distance, perspective correction, etc.

You do make a good point though about a raycaster requiring some ugly workarounds to render on a sprite and polygons focused system
>>
>>2939864
I believe that is what they did with the SNES version for FX support. It isn't even the Doom engine they used for that version.
>>
kkk
>>
>>2934963
I think there have been quite some games that are programmed in asm.

>No one programs in ASM
That's not true
>>
>>2939672
>those stars

oy vey
>>
>>2939864
Doom PS1 used a custom.engine. not raycasting, that's why it has colored sectors with true dynamic contrast. The ps1 version in many ways was superior to the pc version at the time
>>
Would you guys pay for a meme star fox clone like in OPs pic?
>>
>>2934963
People were still hand-writing ASM code on the PS3 you dummy.
>>
>>2939963
necessary because the PS3 CPU is such a fucked up design for anything that's not stream based number crunching
>>
>>2939983
I remember a spoof article saying that the PS4 designers got flak from Sony's management because the PS4 was too easy to develop for.
>>
>>2939995
I love how the PS2 technically speaking is an unholy hybrid of the PS1 and N64. No, really.
>>
>>2940004
every PS is unholy, so they're at least consistent
>>
ridge racer type 4 and tekken 3 come to mind
>>
whats the drawback of doing sprites through software
>>
>>2940396
the same as doing anything without hardware support. It requires CPU cycles. Cycles you'd rather use for something else, like game logic, ai, physics, ...
>>
>>2934740
Why was that impressive?
>>
>>2940437

http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/02/02/making-crash-bandicoot-part-1/

Reading this is practically the /vr/ initiation rite.
>>
>>2940443
>/vr/ initiation rite
only for the crash worshippers. And whenever they talk like you just did, I end up disliking the community surrounding that game even more.
>>
>>2940443
This blog is full of self-praising bullshit and lies.

Like how Naughty Dog were the ONLY video game company that used SGI workstations.

Uh...every developer that wanted titles out for the N64 in the first year had to use them because there was no dev kit yet.
>>
My question: How did they do those fast scrolling SNES games? The SNES is not fast enough typically for such fast scrolling.
>>
>>2940528
there's no speed limit on scrolling. When coding it's a simple matter of setting the offset for the window position, and possibly updating some tiles. That's well within the means of the SNES
>>
>>2940437

I don't know if you took a look at other 3D games at the time. I don't care about how technical it is, but for starters, just look at that complex level geometry. In a time of bigass polygons and 45 degree angles, Crash Bandicoot's fine organic shapes make it look years ahead of its time.
>>
>>2935704
>>2939716
While we are the topic of Trenz and GBC magic, how'd he do this?
https://youtu.be/qb886SUrw7U?t=2m17s

And how the fuck did he not release it? How do you fuck that up?
>>
>>2939373
>the brave little toaster.jpg
>>
>>2940565
>And how the fuck did he not release it? How do you fuck that up?
It was ridiculously difficult to get a publisher during the GBC days. Many projects, including the legendary Tyrannosaurus Tex, and almost Shantae, never got released, because publishers were too chicken. Shantae got published by Capcom after Wayforward has been searching for well over a year, the game already finished. Even then, Capcom only did a minimal 14000 units run, afraid of it failing. It ended up becoming fairly rare because of that. For emphasis: Wayforward was an established developer at that time, the game was done, ready to ship at any moment, and yet they had difficulties finding a publisher willing to publish a finished and good looking game.
>>
>>2940564
>bigass polygons

big textured polygons actually require a fair amount of processing power to get looking right

for starters you need perspective correction because without it the texture on that big polygon is going to look glitchy as fuck
>>
>>2940565
ground looks like a slow playing fmv with HDMA based shifting off the background plane to account for height changes
>>
>>2940461

I actually hate Crash. You can tell it was made by the Uncharted developers, in the worst possible sense.
>>
>>2940641
I'm not yet at that point. All the crash worshippers just make me want to never ever try the game, so I have no clue if it's good, or bad, or what it's like. Probably better that way.
>>
>>2940656

There wouldn't have been such a backlash from fans if the game wasn't so hated by half of the internet. They work as a counterweight.
>>
>>2940845
in my experience the "hate" is a reaction to extreme praise, either because that praise is just plain annoying, or because people playing it because of the praise are thoroughly disappointed and consider it a waste of their time. And on top of that disappointment, they have to deal with the praisers calling them names for not "getting" the game
>>
>>2940567
Ha.
>>
https://youtu.be/wFwbfN18x0I
>>
>>2941432
>>2938235
>>
Somewhat related: How the Sega Saturn did transparency: http://www.mattgreer.org/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr03931gXCE
Any thoughts how did they do that?
I can explain rotating car, violet floor, and even T-Rex (well hidden bunch of sprites), but I can't explain the wall on the right.
>>
>>2943291
The wall is not moving sideways at all. You can build it from background tiles and cycle the content of these tiles (or just cycle the tiles)
>>
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>>2934956
Speaking of ASM...
>>
>>2943291

It could be a very short prerendered sequence..
>>
>>2937014
Sauce?
>>
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>>2939363
1 year can make a BIG difference in PC gaming. In 1997, Quake II had a 256 color software renderer with monochrome lighting and no texture filtering. 1 year later, Unreal was released, which also had a software renderer, but with 32-bit color, colored lighting, fog, light coronas and unique texture filtering comparble to bilinear.
>>
>>2939394
Man, I think all those games you mentionend look incredible, but no way N64 could pull some of the shit going on in Unreal without some serious texture downgrading.
>>
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>>2943375
>that screenshot

Look unreal.
>>
>>2940573

Well, then it's a win win in my book. Finer geometry and less required processing power. The way Crash was made, the graphical glitches of the PS1 aren't that noticeable.
>>
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>>2934790
Ranger X
https://youtu.be/jkGHv8eA4eQ?t=552

Alien Soldier
https://youtu.be/aJNEfPimU40?t=1429

Red Zone CGI intro and gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZKsQ09qOk4

https://youtu.be/FZKsQ09qOk4?t=1200
>>
>>2943375
Quake IIs software render is a work of art. Check out the process here: http://fabiensanglard.net/quake2/quake2_software_renderer.php

Carmack had intended Q2 to use higher colour in the software renderer by way of MMX but they had problems with the bandwidth.
>>
>>2943936
>It is the last of its kind, marking the end of an era before the industry moved to hardware accelerated only.

Dude fucking UT2004 had a software renderer.
>>
>>2939368
This is the portion that still impressed me about this game.
>>
>>2939349
I actually have that game now and I'm impressed. Many Ps1 ports of classic PC games (both MS-DOS and Windows) had terrible framerates. The levels have been cut down. The graphics look better than it would on my old 1999 laptop (320x240 software rendering) and the gameplay is smooth.
>>
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>>2944041
I'm playing PSX Q2 too atm and it's damn fine a console FPS. It has its limitations -- more likely RAM than rendering. The framerate consistency is so good that the reduced geometry must be a matter of RAM rather than speed.
>>
>>2940656
I played crash 1 and 2 a lot as a kid so this is a biased post, but I feel like the only reason it gets hate is because the people who hate it either aren't platformer fans in general or are just trying to be contrarian faggots. There is nothing wrong with not liking the game, but there are no parts of it that stand out as inherently bad (no major glitches, bugs etc that break the game. No absolute bullshit hard areas or incredibly easy ones)

I'd say it is worth trying the series if you enjoy platformers, but note that it isn't really about your skill with button presses and fine control to get you around the level like in Mario 64, most of the difficulty comes from timing your jumps and attacks and reacting to things quickly.

The first game is more barebones in features, but is incredibly harder to complete 100%, while the second game is less tough as balls in some areas, but has secrets all over the place and dank level design.

If you are looking for some platformers to try in general I'd recommend Croc, Tomba (Tombi in Europe), Super Mario Land 1 and 2 on GBC and Super Paper Mario on Wii
>>
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>>2940437
Because this is what most 3D games looked like at the time.
>>
>>2943961
Really? I could swear they removed all traces of it with UGold.
>>
>>2944178
>tfw this looks pretty cool to you
>>
>>2944184
It does look good to me, but crash still looked better.
>>
>>2944041
>>2944119
I wish someone would make shots of Q2 running on a PS2 with bilinear.
>>
>>2944197
Welp, at least I found a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHudbgxWfY
>>
>>2939627
>Oh and the lighting is not truly RGB like it is on PC.

It looks like it is, why wouldn't it be? It's certainly not resource taxing assigning goraud shaded lighting to a vertex.
>>
>>2937279
Actually, i remember reading somewhere that the game was going to be stage based instead of objective based, but i think that was scrapped due to memory limitations so the game turned into having to go to the same stage 6 times instead of having a lot of complex linear stages like the bowser ones.

I think at one point it was going to be like yoshi island where you got some objects to collect (likely red coins) but you could just play the level normally and move on to another.
>>
>>2944209
>3:55
>Massive Strogg spider cyborg

WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT

I have never seen that enemy before!
>>
>>2944283
So, something like Galaxy 2 or 3D Land/World?
>>
>>2944289
IIRC it's only in the PS1 version.
>>
>>2944297
Maybe, mario 64 was planned to have multiplayer too so the multiplayer design for new super mario bros games and 3D world probably took most of its ideas from there.
>>
>>2944283
From what I've read myself the game was planned to be fixed path with an isometric viewpoint, yet this was very, VERY early on in development. It wasn't due to memory limitations that the current approach was taken but more that the team changed their minds.

>>2944378
The multiplayer, however, was the feature that was cut out due to memory limitations; that said, SM64 2 was supposed to have added it back.
>>
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I never actually played it, but wasn't the N64 version of Resident Evil 2 some kind of masterpiece of compression technology at the time?

That they kept most of the audio and fmv files from two PSX disks and fit it all onto a single N64 cartridge is far beyond my understanding, I also understand that all the in game textures had double the resolution in it too, compared to the PSX original.

>dat PAL cover art
>>
>>2944237
>It looks like it is, why wouldn't it be? It's certainly not resource taxing assigning goraud shaded lighting to a vertex.

It actually is technically colored lighting, but it is not fully dynamic like the other versions. The levels seem to be divided up into fixed colored light emitters with the distance from the emitter determining the luminosity.

The amount of lighting used in the level design in this version is also less. Rooms just have a few lights each instead of a complex arrangement. I think the use of the lens flare is designed to cover this up.
>>
>>2934963
this is fully incorrect
>>
>>2944119

I have this on PAL, and while it runs well for the most part, it can get slightly choppy on some parts. Still very playable though.
>>
>>2944165

It's not like they aren't platformer fans, but they don't seem to appreciate the more rigid momentum in Crash, as if platformers need to have all slippery surfaces to be good.
>>
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>>2940437
>>2944178
Or like Floating Runner.

>>2944184
These things were still visually pleasing. The art director knew what he was doing, but these things look very geometrical, very inorganic.
>>
Despite how it looks, the Space Harrier port on the ZX Spectrum is amazing. Compare it to the other "3D" arcade ports it got:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLWQIow7rRQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOK63UWtFt8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76omr-7FDXo
>>
>>2940496

Did N64 development go all the way back to 1994, though?

By the time Crash came out, it was probably common place, but when it started development?
>>
>>2940641

What sense? Playability?
>>
>>2945494
In my opinion, Space Harrier looks very smooth among all 8-bit SH ports.
>>
>>2945805
>Did N64 development go all the way back to 1994, though?
About a year earlier than that.
>>
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Alien Soldier always seems to blow my mind with it's impressive movement of enemies.
>>
Asterix and Obelix XXL on GBA
https://youtu.be/hWBUdgIa0oE?t=34s
>>
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How the hell did they pull off graphics like this in 1983?
>>
>>2946104
they didn't
>>
>>2946104
by inventing laserdisc technology
>>
>>2946104
Laserdiscs and Don Bluth
>>
>>2946104
Laserdisc!
>>
>>2944305
I've looked all over the internets now to see if there are more screenshots of it but I can't find it.

Did the PS1-version have other unique enemies?
>>
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>>2946104
How the hell did they pull off graphics like this in 1983?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHkwdvfXHJc
>>
>>2946719
Camera points in one direction, no rotation. Simplifies a lot of the computations normally involved in 3D rendering
>>
>>2946731
>Simplifies a lot of the computations normally involved in 3D rendering

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
>>
>>2946719
It's arcade machine, you could put any hardware there.
>>
>>2945807

Crash broke new ground visually, but gameplay-wise it could not be more ordinary. It took the most sensible and safe possible approach to making "Mario in 3D". There's no difficulty spikes, aimless open worlds or obtuse mechanics. The platforming is more forgiving than Mario and Sonic. Like Nathan Drake, Crash is a character archetype that has been around for decades.

Both the Uncharted and Crash games are 10/10 if you consider goodness to be the absence of badness. I don't.
>>
>>2946093
Impressive shit right there. Didn't know the GBA could pull that.
>>
>>2947048
>The platforming is more forgiving than Mario and Sonic

I don't think so Tim.
>>
>>2946719
That picture is scary!
>>
>>2946093
WHAT SORCERY IS THIS
>>
>>2946093
isnt the GBA weaker than the SNES
>>
>>2947831
I'd say they're roughly equivalent.

The gba and snes have roughly the same amount of vram, but the gba only has about half as much ram for the cpu.

One other difference is the fact that they both have different architectures.
The gba uses ARM while the snes uses 6581.
ARM processors use a reduced instruction set, so they require more cycles to complete a task compared to a full instruction set like the 6581 or 86x architectures. The advantage if a reduced instruction set is being highly efficient, thus allowing the cpu to run at a higher clock rate.
Between a higher speed, but less things done per cycle, the gba pulls out slightly ahead.

One other difference it that the gba cannot accept expansion chips like the snes can, but I would say that the gba's raw processing power is probably equivalent to the SFX chip.
>>
>>2946093
I imagine Super MArio FX would've looked a bit like this.
>>
>>2947943

The GBA can run games like Doom and Yoshi's Island that the SNES couldn't without Super FX.

>>2947952 is probably right.
>>
>>2947831
No, why would it be?

>>2947943
>I'd say they're roughly equivalent.

No they're fucking not.
>>
>>2947960
>>2947963
Did you read my post?
I did say the raw power was probably equivalent to the SFX.

When I said rougly equivalent, meant what they could achieve was roughly equivalent.
>>
>>2946836
You don't need to sort the polygons. With the camera only facing one direction, their Z coordinate (or what ever points into the screen) determines the order automatically. Figuring the order of polygons is an expensive problem.

With the camera not moving you can make assumptions for culling. For example if you draw boxes, you can automatically cull the face opposite the camera, the face on the bottom of the box, and the face that's facing away from the centerline. If you're extra cool, you won't even include these in the model. They'll never be visible, due to the fixed camera angle.
>>
>>2947987
The GBA is considerably more powerful than even the SFX chip. On top of that, it has additional capabilities regarding video output, like one of the video modes providing a continuous memory model of palette indexed pixels, which is extremely helpful when doing custom engines, instead of tiles + backgrounds.
>>
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>>2947952
>I imagine Super MArio FX would've looked a bit like this.
>still believing that myth
>>
>>2948191
Pretty much this. "Super Mario FX" was just the codename of the chip
>>
>>2946719
ah, iRobot's painting mode. For some reason when I tried it, shapes would just float off to the distance and not come back to the foreground.

That's 25 cents I'll never see again.
>>
>>2938891
I particularly enjoyed your description of the music
>>
>>2948191
I know it didn't ever exist.

I'm just saying if it did, it would probably look like that.
>>
>>2938316
>>2939704
>>2945494
How on earth were those webm's encoded?? By all rights, mp4/webm should have turned those pixel graphics to total mush (especially the alternating pixel patterns)
>>
>>2946093
It looks very good visually. Too bad the breakbeat music doesn't fit at all with the theme of the game.
>>
>>2947017
Yeah, any hardware from 1983.

That thing runs better than any 3D title on the SNES.
>>
>>2948617
Worked for the console versions.
https://youtu.be/vHbptUvB4hI
https://youtu.be/z3cepFS774M

>>2946093
The game is also not retro.
>>
I used to be impressed by the presence of voice clips in NES games and anything before it.

What still impresses me now is that opening scene from Star Ocean on the SNES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbT3k8o9W2I
>>
>>2948737
Speaking of voices in SNES games, Tales of Phantasia is a great example of this. Not only does it have a voiced prologue, but a full-fledged song with vocals as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3SA9LuqQgA

Two other games with spoken words are Super Metroid (the opening) and EarthBound. (the "I miss you" at the end) But they don't hold a candle to what Tales of Phantasia or Star Ocean pulled off.
>>
>>2948632
arcade machines cost thousands and were often multi cpu monsters.
star fox had to rely on technology getting substantially cheaper over time
>>
>>2948843
Also Jurassic Park The Chaos Continues had an impressive intro with dialogue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tridIQSe2pI
>>
Voice on older systems is a matter of efficient sampling. They needed to get a small enough sample that still sounded like what it was supposed to sound like.
>>
>>2934796
how is something smoothly rotating impressive? the snes had scaling and rotation
>>
>>2950086

Because it's not Mode 7. It's not a background, and Mode 7 allows only 2 layers anyways.
>>
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>>2948610

I used Webm for Retards and set the bitrate to the maximum possible. The framerate is low, the colors don't change that much and the pixels are chunky.
>>
>>2950086
snes can't rotate or scale sprites, only a tile layer.

the rotation effect on question is probably a bunch of pre rendered tiles, possibly using both hardware flipping and a quick 90 degree software rotator to cut needed tiles to a quarter
>>
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>>2950116
Awesome, thanks!
>>
>>2934790
What if the developers asked pixar guys for advice?
>>
>>2951127

Pixar wouldn't have known anything about how to squeeze performance out of a game console. However, they did donate the 3D models you see in the game. http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_SNES//Manual/formated/Disney-s_Toy_Story_-_1995_-_Buena_Vista_Interactive.pdf
>>
>>2935001
From the look of it I'd guess really good texture work.
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