>>2932852 No, that's misinformation by butthurt LGS fanboys. There is zero evidence that there was, like, a stack of money that was GOING to go to LGS but all got sucked up by Ion Storm instead. The real answer is that LGS simply wasn't making enough money. Maybe Eidos could (or should) have done more to save them, maybe they shouldn't have spent so much on what they thought were safer bets like Daikatana, but it's stupid to think that without Ion Storm, LGS would have been flying high. Other than the sales of Thief 1 they weren't doing so hot.
>>2933231 From what I've read, Eidos was pumping a lot of money into Romero's newfound company believing in his reputation and promises to deliver a groundbreaking fps. Romero himself was aiming high, but he also was living the life of a rockstar. He asked for a prestigious penthouse suite of Dallas' Chase Tower for his team to be accommodated in for no real reason, which had an in-office movie theater, hired a bunch of modders with no experience to work on the game and only oversaw the project instead of being directly involved with it. When Romero saw Quake 2 during E3 he decided to scrap the entire work they put into the first version of the game made on the Quake 1 engine and start all over which made a lot of people working on the game mad. His entire team eventually quit and he had to hire new staff. Daikatana was in development for 3 years instead of whatever unrealistic time frame Romero initially promised and it looked and played like shit upon release alongside its fps competitors like Unreal Tournament and Quake 3. Eidos lost tons of money on that pipe dream and had to close one of their studios to make even, which happened to be Looking Glass Studios.
>>2933787 >Eidos lost a lot of money on Daikatana True. >Eidos had to close one of their studios to make even False. Aside from that not making sense (closing a studio doesn't MAKE money, lol), it's just a lot more complicated than that. You can read a lot more about LGS and Eidos' financial situation online if you actually care. Daikatana was one factor for a studio that was already struggling.
>Throw money at a 20-something level designer >Shit goes wrong
Color me fucking shocked.
Romero cops a lot of shit for being young, dumb and full of cum. You can't put what is essentially a glorified child in charge of a brand new AAA studio when to date his only real experience is making shareware games with half a dozen of his friends and expect good results.
I have, it's appalling how many company decisions turned on John Carmack's every whim. That Romero didn't seem to realize that Carmack could (and _would_ ) do the same to him that he'd allowed to be done to Hall shows a startling lack of social awareness from a man so easy to inspire loyalty and devotion among gamers.
>>2934698 I don't know how you chuckleheads read the damn book and still come out of it with these "good guy, bad guy" opinions. Like, the whole fucking point is that people are complicated and flawed, that Doom was a perfect storm of circumstances, and that a lot of business and game decisions have very human and relatable reasons behind them.
every fucking time this book is mentioned someone tries to act like the point is that Carmack is 100% robot or that Romero was a lazy toolbag or whatever exaggerated bullshit, it's like the words all went through a filter designed to allow nothing except but stuff that confirms their preconceived notions
>>2934745 >every fucking time this book is mentioned someone tries to act like the point is that Carmack is 100% robot or that Romero was a lazy toolbag or whatever exaggerated bullshit, it's like the words all went through a filter designed to allow nothing except but stuff that confirms their preconceived notions I get that feeling too, it's like people only look at them from one solitary facet of their personalities, I both love and hate the things they did, if you don't have mixed feelings about the events told in the book then I don't know what to tell you.
>>2934751 He's a right cunt, but his adult voice is fine for audio books, and he's not reading his own work, he's reading someone else's work, so it's not like you have to listen to his opinions.
>>2934745 I came off with the impression that Carmack and Romero were two halves of a great design team and success put a rift between them when they suddenly had a multi-million dollar business to manage and they both wanted to go different ways (which is, of course, what happened.)
We ended up with things like Quake 2 which showcased Carmack's incredibly technical skills and was completely marred by not having Romero direct level design. We got Daikatana, which laugh as you might, had fairly decent design but was absolutely crap gameplay-wise.
It isn't a good guy/bad guy situation, it's more like an asshole genius/asshole genius situation. They're both jockeying for the top dog position.
The only "good guy" in that tripod turned out to be poor Tom Hall. You could meander for days on the old "human flaws" cliche, at the end someone still has to fucking step up to the plate and take responsibility for the whole sorry fucking mess.
Guess what? No one did. In our society the rich are totally exempt from such peasant trifles as "accountability".
>>2936104 >sorry fucking mess >accountability We're talking about the history behind some popular video games dude, not some kind of human rights violation. And being the unhappiest person doesn't automatically make you the noblest person.
>What >This post feels like a sudden radical departure from the subject at hand.
Why, 'cause I didn't automatically open wide for papa Romero's dick? I read Masters of Doom the same as any other retro enthusiast. What I saw was one guy too nice for his own good, one guy who would be brought low by his own emotional arrogance, and one complete fucking asshole who never had a genuine connection with another goddamn human being. And let's not forget they essentially fucked their old employer, or in Carmack's immortal dickhole parlance "Because I don't care."
>>2937191 >The level design was maybe not so amazing in Q2 at all times but I think it was still pretty fun to play.
If Romero were there to fuck around with it he would have been able to point out to Carmack that the weapons fucking suck and don't work well in multiplayer, and that the enemy placement in single player is boring and repetitive.
I mean, nobody else on the team would have said it.
Genus might be a tad strong, but he was very talented, and ultimately that was his downfall.
He gave Daikatana to his girlfriend and a bunch of other inexperienced chumps. He thought they could do what he did just because *he* did what he did. Romero still hadn't grasped the concept that most people are stupid and useless.
The situation with Tom Hall really pissed me off. Maybe they're leaving information out or something. But they have a guy who was behind the company's first success, Commander Keen. So afterwards, he isn't working with their current project, so they just fire him? It just seems they turned on people way too fast. Keen and Wolfenstein gave them lots of money, so it's not like they could have just told him to come up with other ideas for a few months.
That's what I kinda was trying to get across. They had the perfect fucking tripod, man: Hall brings the lore, Romero brings the gameplay, Carmack brings the tech. Instead they let the entire enterprise become completely servile to whatever autistic jag Carmack happened to be on at the time.
It truly pains me how slow Romero was in learning his lessons as a younger man. I think he's fundamentally a good person and iD didn't have to end the way it did.
>>2942431 He had a kickstarter for a first person dungeon crawler that didn't get as much interest as he hoped, pulled it before its goal date and went back to making Facebook shovelware. Same thing happened with Tom and his platformer.
You can try to give them a second chance but these day they're viewed as nothing more than has-been and targets of ridicule. No one's going to give them a look in.
Hall would get money if he said he was the father of Commander Keen.
Fucking Inafune is an artist turned producer and managed to ride the coat tail of the Mega Man series, while those who were actually important to its success (like Akira Kitamura, who made Mega man and directed the first 2 games) were forgotten. It's all about luck and self promotion.
>>2942449 >Hall would get money if he said he was the father of Commander Keen. He did. Still didn't.
Romero wouldn't get money for an FPS either, people would just remember Daikatana and laugh at him.
>>2942452 Out of everyone, Tom really got the short end of the stick every time. He gets fucked over at id Software, fucked over at Ion Storm, pissed on for his own independent work and had a stroke. If anyone deserves something good in his future, it's him.
>>2942417 I'm not sure what you're suggesting. It was a bitter situation, but id was a small company only geared at working on one game at a time. They had a few programmers, one sound guy, a couple artists, one business guy, etc. If a person wasn't on board with Doom, the active project, it wasn't really feasible to keep them around other than as a charity case. I guess they could have had him make map packs with no new assets, but I doubt anyone would have found that satisfying.
They had a lot of money, so there's no need to axe talented people with proven track records at the time. Maybe they should have expanded a little bit. Keep Tom Hall on salary, make him head of a secondary team. He tinkers and plays with ideas.
you have to consider that in the current industry climate that if any designer or programmer were worth his salt he could just start making games right now, and release them on anyone of a myriad of services for something like 8 bucks, regardless of reputation
I can only assume that they either ran out of ideas or they weren't actually the one with talent in the first place
The tech company that owned LGS was called something like Intimetrics, and they were bought out by another company called Titan Technologies, this was back in 1999 or so and I don't know if they even exist anymore.
You might be thinking of Star Insurance, who picked up a lot of the IPs from LGS that no one else wanted at the time. Night Dive Studios owns everything associated with System Shock these days.
>>2942468 >He did. Still didn't. Probably because his pitch was rubbish.
I mean seriously, it was essentially Little Big Planet in a B^u art style, who the fuck wants that when he could have just made a proper game concept from the get-go? If he wanted usermade content with a low barrier of entry he should have set that as some secondary objective, maybe facilitate that after release with a DLC.
>>2942597 >game development is easy and cheap This depends heavily on your vision.
>>2942781 >This depends heavily on your vision. if you're gonna go having huge dreams then part of having vision is realizing that you're going to have to make some small projects that turn into successes before you can get substantial support for your larger endeavors.
>>2942478 >It is interesting how close Romero came to working at LGS when it was just starting up, it was something like if Romero had been asked to join a week earlier that it would have worked out. >It might have made a huge difference if he had worked on Ultima Underworld and System Shock instead of Wolfenstein 3D and Doom.
What do you mean? Romero was a good mapper and something that we might call an ideas guy. He got into ideal circumstances by hooking up with the right mix of people (John Carmack, Tom Hall etc.), it's purely speculation to think how he might have performed in LGS.
I guess LGS would've benefited from having a high-profile guy like Romero to help actually sell their high-concept games but I don't know.
All I meant was that it was if Romero was literally asked a week earlier to join LGS when it was being founded then that's what he would have done.
It isn't implausible at all, the roles of John Carmack and Tom Hall in Romero's career might have instead have been played by people like Doug Church and Warren Spector.
He might have only lasted at the company for a month before getting into some huge fight with someone and leaving, but he also might have led to the equivalent of Wolf 3D and Doom being made at LGS instead, meaning they could have sustained themselves more easily and lasted as long as Id have.
>>2942478 >It might have made a huge difference if he had worked on Ultima Underworld and System Shock instead of Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. Honestly, I can't see Romero working on Ultima Underworld or System Shock UI (Inventory, etc.), doesn't feel like something he would go along with at all. If he does, the end product would probably be something close to Ultima 9, which isn't for the better.
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