I always considered the 2D Sonic games as style-over-substance

I'll just say you're not wrong to avoid having a long argument about justifying the series.

>>2921227
>It never delivered on the speed that the marketing teams touted as the main feature
>the camera was too zoomed-in to ever react to anything quick enough to keep that momentum
>The only way I see the game being fulfilling at all is if I memorize the stages

yawn

>>2921230
>>2921232
Sorry anons, I'm not a /vr/ regular.
You have this conversation often or something?

>>2921227
There were enough "secrets" that it seems like they really did put some thought into the level design.

The only levels that you need to memorize are the bonus stages since the bombs that take away your rings sneak up very quickly in the later stages.

My only complaint would be that the game was too short, they could have made the levels longer or just added more of them, you can beat the game in under 1hour.

(note, this is specifically for S2, I haven't played 1 or 3 enough to have a relevant opinion.)

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Unfortunately, the sonic games are built around memorization and replay ability. That's the core reason why they have multiple path-ways.
I think the series attracts autism because the player is encouraged to keep playing the same shit over and over again with little variations in between.

>>2921236
hating sanic is a meme

>>2921227
Yeah, it's the music and colour that came first, level design was secondary

>>2921232
Are you actually gonna refute any of that instead of just repeating it?

>>2921246
This comment is spot on, Sonic is structured like a short arcade game. As opposed to Mario games that are geared for consoles and encourage exploration.

>>2921236

There's already another thread with the exact same complaints and it's not even that far down the catalog. Go read that.

>>2921248
>refute
but those are just opinions, dude

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>>2921253
Holy shit I see it
Sorry, my mistake, should've guessed Sonic would be a 24/7 topic instead of tapping that Submit straight away

>>2921252
Just look at sonic 3 and knuckles. the pen-ultimate secret requires you to collect the emeralds a 2nd time for a hyper sonic that is BARELY an improvement over the (already invincible) super sonic

>TL:DR sonic games only reward speed-runners for memorizing everything. they are the only ones who can truly go fast

>>2921236
Yes, from somewhere along 2012 on /v/ before this board was even a thing. In fact there a recent thread just about this: >>2919947

And I'll just terminate this one by answering most of your arguments:

>marketing teams

Who gives a damn.

>camera was too zoomed-in to ever react to anything quick

Sonic is like 32 pixels wide, and he's always placed at the center of the screen. The only way to make him overlap that centering is if you're reaching the end of the level or make sonic move so fast the screen (which scrolling peaks at 16 horizontal pixels per frame, 1/60 of a second) literally can't keep up with him. That is pretty rare and can only really happen on Chemical Plant or other slopey surfaces.

There is no reason you cannot be quick enough to react in normal speeds when you have more than enough frames to do so by jumping or rolling, unless you have an input/output lag due to hardware.

>to keep that momentum

Losing momentum is not the end of the world IMO. Sonic is more about keeping the flow and "cutting corners" if that makes sense.

>The only way I see the game being fulfilling at all is if I memorize the stages

That IS a way the game can being fulfilling, which kind of resembles what >>2921246 is talking about, except it is not unfortunate. The game physics are really fun when you get how they work (your jump will be higher depending on where you stand/how fast you are) and getting speed through the slopes and hitting the right enemies with the right timing so you bounce off really high while also getting the most rings you can and getting a high score is something that can be done only by learning the levels, I can agree with that. But the whole game is about experimenting with the physics and trying to "cut corners" so you can master it because doing it feels rewarding a way that Mario can't really get. In this I take my distances from >>2921252 since also Sonic encourages exploration for different purposes than to go fast.

>>2921284
Yeah, this is the autism I was talking about.
Not a bad thing, but these people are the only ones who defend the game any more because they've put the time into knowing the frame data inside-out.

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>>2921236
>Sorry anons, I'm not a /vr/ regular. I'm just a /v/ troll repeating the same BUZZWORDS that have been uttered by a certain somebody, that it's not me, from months ago to rile people up.

man, your life must be sad as hell

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>>2921342
I'm not sure what I can say to prove otherwise, but those opinions are all mine.
Sonic is a special part of my life because of the music, but revisiting the games, only Green Hill Zone goes "fast" at all for me because I memorized it when I was a little kid.
And all I was doing was asking:
Do I have to memorize all of them?

Sorry I reminded you of a post you saw "months ago" and made you upset.

>>2921349
I know Sonic is a special part of your life, you've been complaining for months. Some people need something to hate to justify their lives I guess.

>>2921360
I suppose there's no point in trying, is there?
You can have the last word if you want, it doesn't make your paranoia correct.

>>2921349
>only Green Hill Zone goes "fast" at all for me because I memorized it when I was a little kid
>Do I have to memorize all of them?

Why don't you just enable debug mode if you just want to go fast. Or get an actual racing game.

>>2921227
>It never delivered on the speed that the marketing teams touted as the main feature,

This is the common thread between everyone who dislikes these games. You're judging everything through the lens of what commercials TOLD you was the appeal instead of taking the game mechanics at face value and interpreting them yourself.

It's the same thing as if I hated Super Mario World just because my friend told me it was a Doom clone and then I found out that fireballs area lame substitute for gunplay.

>>2921589
The thing is, when you stop considering speed as an element of the series, all that's left is a very mediocre platformer where you trot along until you hit a loop or breakable wall in which case you have to run backwards to get that speed to get past.
Saying you don't have to go fast in Sonic is pure rubbish anon.

>>2921607
You do have to go fast sometimes, because the overall theme of the game is manipulation of the character's momentum. In that regard the mechanics are much deeper than something like Mario.

The loops are a teaching device, to show players in the first stage, "This is not an obstacle you can use a simple action to pass. This requires understanding of the level and game physics to acquire the proper momentum by the time you reach this point.

Sonic is not about going fast, it's about using the geometry of the level to intelligently utilize the character's momentum. Which sometimes does involve going fast. But to reduce the whole goal of the game to going as fast as you can is vastly oversimplifying it.

>>2921245
>There were enough "secrets"
But aside form the Chaos emeralds, none of them really mattered.

>>2921624
how do you know what kind of momentum you need to be keeping without knowing the stage by heart already?

You guys always responding to this daily sanic threads without shitposting are probably the most patient anons on /vr/. I love the genesis games but I can't defend them so many times.

>>2921654
You usually need that speed for something on screen and very close to you.

>>2921656
I love genesis Sonic so much and I've dedicated so much of my life to it that it isn't really a big task to defend its deep mechanics.

If I can make even one person understand it will be worth it.

>>2921663
therefore forcing you to go backwards
is this good level design?

>>2921654
Because no one in their right mind would travel at a snail's pace in Sonic.

>>2921656
Weird huh? It's better this way. It encourages actual discussion instead of shitpost of the day.

>>2921669
spindash exists

>>2921673
more nice then weird

>>2921679
so approaching a loop at moderate speed your options are
>attempt the loop and fall down
>come to a halt first and then spin dash
gameplay like a flowing river

>>2921696
Have you ever actually played a Sonic game though? Loops are pretty much only in the first zone where you're learning the controls or else they're immediately after a slope that will have you going fast anyway.

>>2921654

Trial and error

If at first you dont succeed

etc.

>>2921705
corkscrew loops act in the same way and are present in most zones

>>2921227
You hit the nail on the head with the "memorize" part. The game was made in an era where as much replay value as possible was a good thing, even if it was a bit artificial.
Speed is a reward for knowing the zones by heart, you don't get it straight away. If learning the stages is not appealing to you then the Sonic series is not for you, stick to listening to the OST on YouTube.

sonic 1 was much more about awkward platforming than it was keeping momentum or whatever argument these furries keep re-using, kinda wondering if they were too busy yiffing to get past ghz. sonic 2 is definitely all about going fast, the faster speed, spindash and greater focus on those cinematic loop-de-loop segments proves this. any furry denying this is either blind or just ignoring the actual game to defend your blue husbando. and even so they still couldn't help adding in shitty platforming segments that worked even worse than in sonic 1. sonic 3 is the only one that feels designed around keeping momentum, and i bet you 100% that these furfags are the same people who whine that sonic 3 has shitty controls because you can actually somewhat control your momentum and can see what's ahead of you even at topspeed.

shitty opinions all around, fuck y'all.

He didn't hit the nail on the head with "memorize". You have to memorize things in every game. It's helps to have remembered what the hell the game is about.

You do not have to make an intentional effort to memorize anything.

>>2921227
Every time you bump into something, make a mental note of it and restart the game. The next time you will jump over it.
Rinse and repeat, then you will get your FAST.

>>2921227
>It never delivered on the speed that the marketing teams touted as the main feature

Bait? You posted a picture from one of the fastest levels in the series.

Honestly, I'm done arguing this point. Get gud or fuck off.

>>2921774
VERY rude, not /vr/ behaviour at all
Please hide Sonic threads if you are tempted to make a reply like that again

>>2921227
>So is there something to these games other than the hot OST and visual design?
Consider this: Mario ruled the hearts of platform kids. Sega had tried before with Alex the Kidd. When they released Genesis/Mega Drive, they really needed something awesome. Enter Sonic.

>>2921774
I just found the first cool Sonic pic that wasn't GHZ

>>2921782
P.S.
https://gamebabble.wordpress.com/2010/02/22/sonic-and-the-worst-fandom-ever/
>Sonic the Hedgehog was not SEGA’s first mascot, but he was their first serious attempt at competing with Mario. You see, the SEGA Genesis was not originally created to compete with the Super Nintendo. It predates it by two years and competed with the original NES. When the SNES came out, SEGA was in a jam. Nintendo’s new system was clearly more powerful than their own, but it had one weakness: the Genesis had a faster processor. But how does one show off their console’s superior speed? The answer was to make a fast game. That game, of course, was Sonic the Hedgehog.

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When you get fast, press DOWN on your directional pad to spin into a ball.

This will help you destroy any oncoming enemies.

Sometimes when going fast, you may need to press jump. If you feel something might be ahead - press the JUMP button to help mitigate running into obstacles.

I've included a diagram to help educate you.

Perhaps one day you'll know how to play an old game properly.

>>2921762
You're a fucking faggot.

I'm just going to leave this here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF6euoFbx60

This is how the game should be played. And sorry millennials, it's not something that you can do on a first play through. It takes both knowing the game well and skill, which are cultivated through many hours of playing, experimentation, and a desire to improve.

Conquering challenges is a large part of what makes video games rewarding.

If the kind of complaints being voiced by OP were valid, think of what it means in the context of, say, music; "Waaah! When I strum a guitar the first time it sounds like shit! All the music I listen to is misleading! It's just a bunch of memorization! If I can't shred the first time I pick one up, it must be poorly designed! Where's my instant gratification?! No one told me I'd have to try to make good music! Having to improve myself means I have to accept that I'm not immediately perfect at everything, and my ego can't handle it! Waaaah!"

>>2921762

>furry furry furfag furshit furry yiff furry

Seriously, either kill yourself or fuck off back to /v/.

>>2921985
This is the only good way to play Sonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ef8SD9gUg

>>2921227
>Am I approaching this series in the wrong way?

Being a Nintendo/Sony kid I only a few years ago tried to play Sonic games, starting with the GBA games and Generations. My first reaction even before being exposed to the newest youtube meme opinions was something like:
>This is supposed to be a platformer like Mario, and it doesn't look like it's a collectathon like Donkey Kong, so why the fuck are the levels built like mazes? Am I supposed to slowly explore the levels finding something, maybe the emeralds I heard about? Is there anything I'm supposed to be looking for here? Just artwork?
Plus:
>I'm fucking invincible! If I get hit I drop rings that I can just grab again over and over, so where is the challenge in this shit?
So I dropped it until a year ago after reading a bit more about the games and watching speed runs. That is when it hit me that the whole point of the games is that while you can easily beat some of them by holding right (hello Advance 2) the whole fun comes from trying to optimize your play. So you first beat normally but then you come back not to find secrets like DKC but to find the fastest path, and then try to find out how to hit that enemy at top speed to be launched into a platform that gives you speed shoes so you can finish even faster, etc. So being hit is more of a speed bump that sometimes can knock you down into a worse path than a game over threat. Trying to play the games like that is a lot more fun than I initially thought it would be.

What made me appreciate the games was watching an Advance 2 speedrun, because Advance 1 and 2 were the only ones I had forced myself to finish, and I thought 2 was such a dumb platformer where you just hold right all the time while Sonic is (sometimes literally) on rails, but seeing it played by someone trying for the best time was so much different (there is actual skill involved) and looked so fun that I had to try the series again.

>>2921936
>>2921992
what am i supposed to think?

>>2921227
One thing that's always hurt it IMO is the floatiness of the jumping. It's just very slow feeling.

>>2922179
Sonic has a lot of inertia. It's not apparent in the straight sections, but when trying to jump back and forth it gets really noticeable.

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>>2921306
Had no clue forming actual arguments and engaging conversation is now autism.

>>2921246
That's all games from the era. No idea how you can be on /vr/ and look at that design philosophy as being "autism" or whatever.

>>2921985
>That momentum canceling on short ramps
Damn, that's some nice shit. I'll be honest, I can probably play through this game in my sleep, but it's always nice to see a good, streamlined run.

>>2921227

Jesus Christ, /vr/, _another_ "Sanic always sucked!" thread?

This shit is getting real old.

>>2922560
>it's underscorefag

>>2922565

Hi autistibro, Imma type it as 4Chan and /VR/ just to trigger you, k?

>>2922549
The only problem with this run is that Sega decided to sub that annoying 8 second loop for the great bgm everytime you go super sonic. Other than that it's precise but relaxed.

>>2922058
>starting with the GBA games and Generations

Those games don't even carry the same design philosophy as the originals. You gotta play the ones on Genesis.

>>2921227
The guys on Previous Recorded agree with you. So you're at least not the only one with this impression. Marketing is a powerful tool. There are some advertisers so good that they could convince people to literally eat literal shit so I have a feeling you're probably right.

https://youtu.be/WYDsz1NFBJw

>>2922460
>Had no clue forming actual arguments and engaging conversation is now autism.


The only one who looks autistic is the people using the word autism like that because you have to seriously be socially retarded to think that's a normal thing to say to people having a conversation.

I don't really enjoy them so i guess they are overrated shit.

I don't understand why there are people on the /vr/ board that say early sonic is shit for being "unfair".

Do these people have played any game from that era? genesis sonic is actually kind of comfy.

>>2922673
>I repeat whatever YouTubers tell me

You're the reason the retro game community is shit now.

>>2922673
It's funny because even RLM fans think Pre Rec is liquid shit.

I've been on the Internet for about 20 years now and I'd never heard the "you can't see far enough ahead!" argument until this video >>2922673 now it's everywhere.

It's insane to me that people are so mindlessly willing to repeat whatever YouTubers tell them. And it seems to be a YouTube phenomenon too; I don't recall people parroting Maddox or Seanbaby or previous e-celebs. It's bizarre to me. And like >>2922714 said it's really killing the retro community. Why even bother to discuss something when people don't have opinions of their own?

>>2922742

If that dude thinks that the Gensis version of Sonic 2 doesn't let you see far enough ahead, then God help him if he plays the Game Gear version.

>>2921227
In short, OP
Mario takes mastering of the jump physics to overcome challenges as you see them, someone with Mario "skill" can polish off any level quite quickly if they know the basic elements of the game
Sonic takes trial and error so that you can burn the level into your mind before speeding through it, the only way to have a gratifying experience (and not the stop/start you were describing) is to know which frames to jump at so that you don't lose speed every 2 seconds

They are very different platformers for very different kinds of people. If you don't have the patience for Sonic, go play your little insta-gratification gay plumber game.

>>2922772
This.
Sonic shits all over Mario in terms of effort you have to put into the game. If you're not willing to learn the game's mechanics and the layout of the stages, fuck off and play something else.

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What I don't get about this argument is that sonic is one of the easiest games out there. I beat the main originals when I was under nine years old. I love these games, but they are not particularly challenging or disorienting. If you can't beat a classic sonic game in under a couple hours, I have a couple questions about your skill level. Am I seriously to believe that people claiming to be interested in retro gaming are having a hard time playing something as benign as sonic the fucking hedgehog?

So you say you need to memorize stages and traps? Ok? That basically describes any video game ever made. What exactly is the argument here?

>>2922784
>So you say you need to memorize stages and traps [to beat the game]?
Not really, if you take the game at a leisurely pace most of the time and the game becomes very easy.
The point is that, without the speed, Sonic becomes a very average platformer compared to other games out at the time.
And the question, that people haven't really given a Yes/No to yet, does a 2D Sonic experience where you don't come to a stop all the time exist? And if you have achieved this experience, did you memorize the levels first?

>>2922796
>>does a 2D Sonic experience where you don't come to a stop all the time exist?

I'm saying you're a pretty terrible gamer of you say no.

>>2921227
levels with multiple paths, secrets, fair but challenging platforming.

only thing people care about is that you can't constantly run because SOONIC GOTTA GO FAST RITE

>>2922796
>does a 2D Sonic experience where you don't come to a stop all the time exist?
No
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF6euoFbx60
This is the best LP I've seen of Sonic 3 and the dude stops all the time. Sonic is not a game where you keep running and react to simple obstacles, you have to know the stage and know where to stop and start.

>>2922798
I don't think you've ever played a Sonic game.

>>2922804
Thanks. This is the sort of thing I was looking for.
Thread can die now.

>>2922772
>go play your little insta-gratification gay plumber game
why do all the Sonic defenders on this board type like 9 year-olds?

Man... Sonic is so my childhood... Megadrive was my first videogame. I loved it, too bad I didn't know what games to play apart from sonic and a few other titles. But I loved sonic. Not only me, my whole family loved it. my two sisters, my dad... My mom was the only one who didn't like it. i tried teaching her once but she couldnt bother learning it.
i remember we could never beT the game cause we sucked. The only person in the house that could beat it was daddy. So every fucking night when he came back from work I begged him to beat it. he always complained, but soon obliged. i then I'd sit there and play with him, and I was that little gay blond fox that follows sonic. And we played together everynight. Those were the days...
I'm all teary now, fuck you op.
In 2001 we found out dad was raping my sister for the last year. My parents divorced soon after. The day I found out that truth was the day my childhood was over. And I remember i had just learnt what the world rape meant. He was prosecuted and arrested for 7 years. His family never cared about us, and continuously harassed both my mom and sister. It was a nightmare. I haven't seen him ever since. My sister commited suicide when she was a teen. My mom died of cancer three years later. My other sister and I never spoke again since my father arrested. She had ice runing in her veins, a venomous serpent in the place of the heart. She sided with my father and his family in the trial and cut her relationship with mammy and abused sister. The abused sister said that far from the rape, the younger sister's betrayal was the worse that ever happened to her, because during those nights when dad would assault her, he made her keep silent and submissive by threating our sister ("if you tell anyone about this, i'll do the same to your lil sister").
It's a tragic life after all. I don't know why I'm blogging here...

>>2921245
>you can beat the game in under 1hour.
What is the problem with that? It is completely reasonable to have a game last for 30~60 minutes since it is easy to put away for that amount of time for an activity. You want this thing to be a four hour game or what?

>>2922816
Maybe if you had stopped fucking bothering your dad to play the same stupid game everynight he wouldn't have raped your sister.


But I have a honest question...
If you had the option to be the one molested and spare your lil deceased sister, would you do it?

>>2922841
That's not a fair question at all because I'm gay, so I think I could've been able to put up with his shit and not telling anyone. It's worth to mention that he never penetrated my sister, thus the jail time was significantly reduced, since it was only sexual harassment instead of legally rape.
I think I could have managed to come with terms with gay incest and not ruining the family at the same time.

>>2922848
Are you blaiming your sister for snitching papa pervert?

>>2922854
Never. Especially because she never told, my mom caught dad in the act. I'm saying a degenerate like me could find a balance between enjoying daddy abuse and keeping it a secret.

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>Sonic hate threads making the exact same claims every time and calling everyone autistic
>Every single day

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>>2922865
I mean with Deviant Art's billions of OCs and guy...girls like Sonichu can you really blame them for calling Sonic fans autistic? Pic oddly unrelated.

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>>2921227
sonic level design is about alternate paths for replayability and earning speed through momentum.

but really starting in sonic 2 you can spindash everywhere and press a button every time you see something coming.
sonic's normal top running speed isn't fast enough to make enemies unreactable.

you also need to keep in mind how neat the physics were for a platformer.

>>2923149
The physics are something that really makes Sonic stand out for me in his genesis days. I can replay a game and still feel enjoyment for how much speed I gather by going through a loop and curling into a ball midway.

Your pic also describes Sonic 4 for the modern half. Which are "okay." Imo. But I digress

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>it's a "Sonic was bad thread".

>>2922815
I could say the same for most Mario defenders as well.

>>2922742
I'm sorry I just played Sonic as a kid and couldn't go fast so I gave up and thought it was shit and I hated how everyone complains about the games when I thought they were all shit. That show put it into words better than I could I didn't want to just say it's shit.

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>>2921227

>It never delivered on the speed that the marketing teams touted as the main feature
>marketing teams
>marketing
>"I'm a huge retard who lets marketing for a game influence what I think about the actual game, even decades after the game was released"

>>2921227
i love chemical plant theme

>>2922742
People parroted Maddox sometimes, just not as much. For example once Maddox had a shit article saying "in my opinion" is redundant because "herp obviously it's your opinion since you said it", and thousands of fools online whenever they wanted to feel as if they were right about something would pick out your "imo" and "correct" you by stating that it's a known fallacy to put in "imo", talking about how annoying it is to them when people put in "imo" because they know it's wrong. I'm convinced that horseshit all came from Maddox.

Another thing that Maddox did long ago was say "you're welcome" at the end of some article in expectation you would thank him. It fit the article and was funny at the time, however I've seen this popping up in the most obnoxious ways.

>>2922796
You know, it's funny that people say you even have to "memorize" the level design for classic Sonic, even some more modern ones too, because I've always found the level design to be very organic and memorable on its own. I mean, Sonic 3 is definitely a prime example of this, where it just doesn't feel like you won't see what's coming next.

>>2923160
I had a couple of friends over at my apartment one night and one of them was explaining how he'd never played Sonic, and if the recent games were worth getting into. I pulled up Sonic and Knuckles and showed him how that game played and then I opened my Sonic 4 file. I remember feeling ambivalent towards the game on my first playthrough but holy shit, after playing it right after S&K it was just painful.

>>2921246
That's just how arcade games work, man. Look at Space Harrier, OutRun, or moving from Sega stuff like Robotron, or Donkey Kong. These are all games about doing the same shit over and over again to little variety, but they bring you back because that shit is fun to you. Really there's something 'autistic' about all gamers, if you want to get down to it, because what you do in most any game is the same thing over and over. It really comes down to whether that same thing over and over appeals to you or not, which is just personal taste really. I don't like shoot'em ups personally, but that doesn't mean that shoot'em up players are wrong, or have some mental condition. They just have a different proclivity than I do.

>>2921635

this is a real issue with the game. People like to say that modern Sonic is bad because there's no variety in where you can go, but when you really study the level maps in Sonic 1-3 you see that there isn't much variety there either (though as the series goes on it becomes MUCH more labyrinthine, though that's also in part because of Knuckles and Tails having powers that let them reach places that Sonic cannot and Knuckles even having a separate series of pathways not seen by the other characters).

That's one reason that I like Sonic CD and Sonic 3D Blast a lot, is that they are more about exploring the level and finding shit. It's a great natural evolution of the series from Sonic 1 IMO (even if 3D Blast throws all the good momentum shit out the window).

>>2921654
I would say the game is pretty good at being consistent in its rules. If the jump works like this in Stage 1, it's probably going to be the same in any other Stage that has a similar setup.

>>2921728
You have to be careful with that 'speed as a reward' line. The games are pretty willing to dole out speed without much player skill/knowledge (Chemical Plant is a good example). Though you are right that clearing late game stages quickly is a trial of much practice.

>>2923471
I said 'real issue' but I think I meant 'valid point' instead. My bad.

>>2923471
>Really there's something 'autistic' about all gamers, if you want to get down to it, because what you do in most any game is the same thing over and over.

There's nothing autistic about that. The goal is to improve your performance.

I'm not even sure why the rest of you bringing up memorization as an issue even find the idea it offensive. Are you all spoiled by modern games that basically hand you the win condition?

Memorizing alone won't get you the win. It all comes down to execution at the end of the day. You can memorize the layout in any game, but if you're too dumb to time the jump and know how high or low you're suppose to be at then memorizing the layout won't help you.

There's enough screen space for you to react to anything coming at you. I don't care what your favorite Youtube e-celeb thinks because they're probably shit at video games, but if you have a problem with Sonic games then I seriously wonder how you manage to complete any other game.

>>2923354
But people use "imo" to emphasize that they don't believe everyone will agree with them, and that it's a particular taste that may in fact go against the usual belief and they're not trying to say everyone else is wrong. Calling it a fallacy is unnecessarily picky.

>>2922574
Christ, I was just making a joke.

>>2922772
>>2922781
As much as I like Sonic games, you people are faggots for saying Mario is easy. The last time I played Mario World, I got the shit slapped right out of me by the enemies.

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>>2924205
>The last time I played Mario World, I got the shit slapped right out of me by the enemies.

>Mario World

If you said Mario 3, you would have a point.

But Mario World, anon?

>>2924208
To be fair, it's the only 2D Mario game I've played besides the first one, and the last time I played it was the end of the streak where I played it for the first time.

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>>2924224

No anon, that doesn't make it fair.

Mario World is the easiest of the 2D Mario games.

>>2923987
that's why I put it in quotations, to refer to the 'internet' way of using the word.

I don't disagree with what you said there, but I don't exactly know why you said it in response to my post. I was just pointing out that Sonic is unfairly given a label which doesn't make a lot of sense to only apply to that game, because pretty much all games are valid for that label based on those requirements.

>>2924230
Super Mario World played for the first time is a difficult enough game, especially compared to Sonic.

Your pictures only show how retarded you are.

>>2924230
Only if you cape abuse.

Even so, he didn't say he was good at the game.

>>2921985
>And sorry millennials
What does this even mean in context? Millennials are the exact people who grew up playing Sonic on the Genesis.

>>2921806

>snes can't fast
>f-zero exists

>>2922487
"autism" is the go to insult on 4chan for when you can't think of a proper argument.

Sure is /v/ around here

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>>2921227

>Implying that any /vr/ Sonic game is "Good"
>Implying Genesis Sonic games got popular on merit instead of furries going nuts

>>2923210

Sonic the Hedgehog is the worse videogame series ever created. All of the games are pure trash with bullshit hit detection and bullshit physics.

>>2921985
no it'd be like someone running up to you and slapping you at random times and then getting mad that you didn't memorize their slap pattern. good game design informs you of it's systems before you have to interact with them. even shitty games recognize this, it's fundamental. sonic doesn't give a shit about this. it's bad design, and still a mediocre platformer even if that was alleviated.

every sonic autist's argument boils down to some age-appealing "git gud xD" horseshit like you couldn't make that argument for any badly designed game. the point is it isn't fun and is easily surpassed by most other platformers. it's not like it's hard either, it's just annoying constantly having to halt your momentum the game is oh-so apparently about to do some slippery-ass platforming. and that's ignoring the whole "enemy you couldn't see coming fucking up your ringcount" thing nobody has actually addressed with anything outside of "memorize it like us turbospergs" like no, sorry that's a fucking ridiculous criteria for a casual kid's platformer and obviously not even an intentional design principle, just a byproduct of badly thought-out design in favor of showing off hardware capabilities.

>>2924762
sonic 1 had revolutionary physics for the time but yeah that was the only interesting thing about it

>>2921985
You know, Angel Island being set on fire is a cool scene, but damn does the zone look ugly after it happens. Is there a romhack that lets you play Angel Island with the original colors?

>>2924762
high five dude. Im so butthurt that you called sonic bullshit. you sure showed all those autistic sonic furfags how original you are. btw that is a sick(cool) ass frog reaction image bro.

>/v/ is invading /vr/ again
Great, but you faggots better realize that you're going to have one fuck of a time trying to get the vast majority to "wake up" and "realize" that these awesome classics that practically sold a console and have been enjoyed for well over two decades are "shit" and "poorly-designed" because you didn't bother learning how to play them, when people like me can have a fantastic time with them. But since the unfathomable amount of fans are all just screeching autistic retards because that's the most popular buzzword in in town and because you said so, our opinions on the series mean nothing.

>>2924863
Why are you replying to a troll?

>>2925012
you opinions dont mean nothing, theyre just stupid opinions

but yeah go ahead and ignore MY arguments and call us faggots and millennials while getting all hot n bothered over getting called autistic furries like there isnt plenty of evidence for that

>>2925053
All of your arguments are a result of not wanting to learn to play the games, if you're the same poster as >>2924819

Pretty much every Sonic game takes a lot getting used to, but once you've passed that point, they're great games, except shit like Shadow and '06, but you know what I mean. Also, you type like a seven-year-old.

>>2925089
i clarified that i didn't think the games are hard, theyre not most of the time. theyre just frustrating mechanically and not fun. presuming that the devs wanted a bunch of kids (the clear target demographic) to have to memorize the ENTIRE game to enjoy it is complete nonsense. it's just a shitty excuse to justify wasting your life playing your mediocre furry platformer til literal memorization

also sorry i didn't press shift enough times for you LMAO
>why do you call us autists ; ;

>>2921252
>arcade game

Woah, like most games of the time period. And from SEGA, an arcade developer. Who would of thunk that?

>mario
>exploration

Have even you played the games we're talking about? Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a colossal platform experience with several full routes on every level and lets you free flow between them. Mario is pretty much linear.

>>2921227

This is what the youtube generation is bringing in.

Am I the only one that literally doesn't understand these "criticisms"? I played these games for the physics, level design and exploration and I had a blast. I was never trying to play for speed or whatever, and I never felt like had to memorize anything. I thought it was very reactive, unless you think you were entitled to a speedrunner experience just by holding right which OP and other people on these threads seem to be.

>>2925093
>frustrating mechanically and not fun
Not for most people.

>he devs wanted a bunch of kids (the clear target demographic) to have to memorize the ENTIRE game to enjoy it is complete nonsense
I could do it fine when I was eight, and so could all the other people who weren't raised on fucking mobile games and instant gratification.

>>2925093

Except kids didn't have that problem back in the day.

>>2925164
No, me too. It all sounds like horseshit to me.

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Sonic was never that good
just looked cool and sounded cool

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>"y-you have to memorize, otherwise you will hit enemies at every 2 seconds and cannot enjoy!"
>mfw playing Sonic hacks and don't having any kind of that casual troubles

It'd better for you to admit you don't like the game or don't know how to play, it's better than all those excuses.

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Why don't you just press down when you are running? You built up your speed now just roll into a ball and enemies aren't that big of a problem. If you keep on running into enemies then isn't that the practical solution? Or do you not learn from those?

It's not retro, but you should play Sonic 4, OP (or anyone finding that you can't help but run into enemies for that matter). Its controls were re-worked for Nintendo kids - they clearly stated so - and they removed basically all the momentum you guys can't apparently fucking handle.

>>2925334
Yeah, it's horseshit.
Only /vr/ likes to complain about it, 'cause it's hip to do so. But /vr/ didn't actually even play the games.

>>2925379
Never mind rolling into a ball actually builds momentum on slopey surfaces. A thing that not only both Sonic 4 episodes, but even Generations didn't get right.

>>2925346

>getting your opinions from fat fucks on the internet

>>2925093
Some sad little man can't play Sonic for shit and got butthurt over it. He saw the argument that annoys shoot-em-up players that a lot of it is memorization. He thought he'd apply it to Sonic and see what happened.

That is literally all there is to this nonsense. Knowing what's ahead of you is OBVIOUSLY going to help you do better. In polished games like Mario and Sonic it's designed so if you know it well you can go through it fast.

>>2925385

Give us a link to why they changed the controls for sonic 4.

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Why people who can't into Sonic classic games often have to be aggressive?
I mean they usually are very annoying, but with this meme "Sonic was never good" all the people bad at its games are starting to be kinda pathetic...

>>2921227
>The only way I see the game being fulfilling at all is if I memorize the stages, and I have to be honest it's not something I want to do


Underaged b& like OP don't understand that sonic was created in an era where you couldn't save state your way to victory and were in fact expected to get good at games in order to beat them.

>>2925467
Sonic isn't hard to beat
It's just hard to have fun with
Pretty shit platformer compared to pretty much everything else out at the time

>>2925482
How can you even write such hot opinions without burning your hands.

>>2925487
Sorry I didn't put IMO to avoid upsetting you dude.

>>2925482
It's cool to not like Sonic, everyone has different opinions.

To call it "shit" shows you're a deranged faggot trying to troll.

>>2925494
"Sonic the Hedgehog is a shit platforming series, in my opinion".
I don't really think you need me to mince my words any more, you aren't that delicate are you?

I once saw someone in a thread like this who had only played Nintendo games for the longest time, and when he finally got around to Sonic, and he, and I quote, "learned not to play like a retard," he held Sonic in the same light as all the other video game classics.

But then you have people like OP.

What about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgQc4ZkVeMY

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>>2921227
Platforming ability isn't really part of the genesis Sonic games as much as figuring out the maze-like structure of the levels then navigating them once you've learned it.
But that's part of the fun, if you look up the secrets and level layout online, you might as well not play.

It doesn't make you cool to be edgy kids who go back to classic series and think they're being smart for figuring out it's actually been shit all along and everyone was blinded because we didn't have anything better at the time.

It's really the same attitude as the kids who say all old stuff looks bad and they just wanna play Call of Duty, only more pretentious.

>>2925908
This thread is nothing, you should see when shitposters actually take the time to paste a pretentious, 7post-long paper about how Mario is the greatest game of all time and Sonic is the epitome of looks over substance, all written in the most hateable and fallacious way you could. It never fails to trigger me.

I'm not really sure why everyone uses the term "mazelike" for Sonic levels. To me mazelike implies getting lost and trying to find the correct path out of many. But the brilliance of Sonic stages (and part of the reason Sonic has such a hard time adapting to 3D) is because as complex as the stages are, you can never get lost as long as you keep heading right. The reason there are so many paths isn't to confuse the player, its so the player has a lot of leeway where they can fail skillful jumps and continue the stage on a different track rather than halt their momentum by dying or taking damage.

Sonic detractors complain about how the game is always stopping your momentum, but really the levels are expertly designed so you can continue onward in the case of failing a specific obstacle in most cases

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>>2925987
the dude was asking if he had the wrong mindset, not that he was better than everyone for not enjoying Sonic
I swear the Sonic fanbase is the most defensive and quick to take offence out there and it makes any meaningful conversation about the series virtually impossible

>>2925997
If you wanna find the secrets the game has to offer you sure as hell have to start treating the levels like mazes and not like "hold right long enough to get past all this confusing stuff" affairs.

>>2925498
No, because you don't call things people like "shit" in a thread that has nothing to do with it. You don't go to your best friend's house and say their mom looks like a whore. You don't tell muslims their god is a faggot and doesn't exist.

If people are talking about tv you don't butt in on their conversation and say "I think it's all shit". No, because you're just trolling here to annoy people. Now piss off.

>>2926000
Actually, he probably just forgot what the OP even was after reading the thread for like twenty minutes, what with the rest of the thread being filled with "SONIC IS FUCKING SHIT" people, and the fact that whenever there's a thread like this it's usually posted by someone like the other thread in the catalog.

>>2926006
Did you follow that conversation past the post you replied to? It's all in context if you bother to read.

>>2926014
shortsightedness isn't an excuse to post like a jackass, if he wants a flamewar about how much he hates people with opinions different to his own, he can go on another board.

>>2921227
I like the games because they are easy to control and the physics are tight.
You have a d-pad, and jump. That's it. But you can roll, spin, use shield powers, and a bunch of environment situations. Jumping on slopes is different than just jumping normally.

I think the levels are fine. There are a bunch of splitting paths, but it does a good job at leading the player forward. It's rare to actually get lost.

That's just me though. It's not about muh speeds, it's a platformer based on pinball.

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>ITT: i didn't know sonic could roll? woooow?

>>2926242
>your image
?

>>2926275
aids moby

>>2925372
the furries are the one saying i have to memorize it to enjoy it properly. :S

i will say that sonic 3 attempted to alleviate this problem somewhat with its slower speed mechanics but still failed lmao. atl they tried

>>2925986
>Platforming ability isn't really part of the genesis Sonic games
see: every sonic 1 zone outside of ghz and springyard somewhat

>>2926242
spindash eliminates the challenge entirely. it's just as sloppy design as anything else in sonic

>>2925165
>Not for most people.
well yeah furries but theyre subhuman so
>I could do it fine when I was eight,
conglaturation!!! want me to reiterate for the 50th time that i dont think the games are hard?
>>2925179
>back in muh day
nice argument both of you
>>2925421
ffs i beat most of the sonic games when i was a kid too. a game being easy doesn't make it well-designed. and idk where you got shmups from since theyre controls/perspective are designed to accommodate for fast obstacles coming towards you, unlike sonic. youre supposed to be able to understand a challenge before engaging it, it makes overcoming it gratifying and not just "wow i happened to do that" or "wow i died and it wasn't my fault. guess i didn't memorize this shitty game hard enough."

even notoriously hard games like dark souls understand this BASIC philosophy. it's bad design.

now please strawman me saying i'm sad that sonic isn't easy enough or whatever. yiff in hell

>>2926314
>>2926318
You're a shitty, very obviously underage troll who doesn't even try to make his posts feel authentic. I highly doubt that anyone in this thread is reading your posts with a straight face, and I'm seriously having a difficult time imagining anyone over the age of around fourteen making these kinds of cancerous, immature, poorly-written shitposts. Thanks for giving me material to post in the next cringe thread.

>>2926342
keep projecting your furry shame. i think the real cringey thing is getting defensive because someone somewhere isn't in love with a badly designed game.

>>2926327
Now you are just pulling things out of your ass. You complain about running into enemies often and there is a way to circumvent such a thing while you are doing the speedier section and it is sloppy design? There are still platforming segments, especially if you look at places like Marble Zone or Scrap Brain Zone which means you won't be spin dashing all the time.

Sonic is a momentum based platformer. We get it, you are unable to adapt to different rule sets for video games.

>>2926349
He's a troll, Anon. Not worth your valuable time.

>>2926342
i'll stop making furry strawman when you make any sort of argument outside of some strawman about my age or the games i like or that my opinions couldn't possibly be my own
>>2926349
it's a shitty solution to an even shittier problem. just blowing through everything with no challenge or engagement isn't fun, it might as well not even be a game at that point.

also spindash wasnt in sonic 1. you could roll but thats not really what im talking about.
>>2926352
not trolling. stop.

Been waiting for a mod to delete this troll thread for a long time, but I guess /vr/ have no mods. This explain the shitty state of the board.

>>2926361
op posed a good question

>>2926364
stop samefagging. op (you) keeps calling everyone else a furry and keeps making the same thread week in week out. Your life is pretty sad to be this anal about some game series.

>>2926374
i dont know who youre talking about and im p sure op left the thread.

>>2926361
It's was not a troll thread originally I think, there are a few morons arguing back and forth in the past few posts but the OP doesn't look like a troll. I said a lot of stuff here:
>>2922058
But I guess the TL;DR is:
Easy to beat and hard to master, and to me trying to master it is very fun, so:
>>2921227
>The only way I see the game being fulfilling at all is if I memorize the stages
Yes to a certain extent, but they're ok platformers even without that.

>>2926325
The ultra-forgiving rings mechanic makes platforming ability a moot concept.

>>2921227
>Am I approaching this series in the wrong way?
It's fun to play and replay without thinking too hard. It's the opposite of pretty much everything Nintendo is doing right now being shitting up creativity for the sake of creativity without a bit of replay value.

>I always considered the 2D Sonic games as style-over-substance spectacles, where the music and visuals were amazing, but the level design itself was clumsy.

This is a really condescending comment to people who had fun exploring the different paths and building up their skills in the process.

>It never delivered on the speed that the marketing teams touted as the main feature,

Yes it did. You're lying. There are plenty of moments that show off the Genesis's processing power with bursts of speed. You even concede this in your next comment...

>it was just a cycle of gaining momentum then stopping at a wall,

How is gaining momentum different to gaining speed? Look at Chemical Plant Zone, Starlight Zone, Hydrocity Zone and much more. These zones balance speed with platforming.

If the zones were constant speed, the series would be accused of being push-right-to-win.

>and the camera was too zoomed-in to ever react to anything quick enough to keep that momentum.

This is why you make use of the spin attack and jumping.

Here's someone playing Sonic 2 normally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5oSBsD22r0

Notice the bursts of speed? Notice how he presses down to spin attack?

Notice the tasteful balance between fast sections and platforming? This game has a lot to offer, ergo it isn't style over substance.

>Am I approaching this series in the wrong way? The only way I see the game being fulfilling at all is if I memorize the stages, and I have to be honest it's not something I want to do.

There's a difference between speed and RUSHING. You sound like you're trying to rush through the game without thinking. It has nothing to do with memorisation - you can pick up the visual cues well enough. Ramps and loops usually indicate a fast section - when the ramps end an obstacle may be up ahead.

>So is there something to these games other than the hot OST and visual design? Or was that the appeal all along.

I answered everything above.

>>2921227
>I always considered the 2D Sonic games as style-over-substance spectacles, where the music and visuals were amazing, but the level design itself was clumsy.
You want a medal?