>>25022381 >Never accomplished anything This is how I know you've never watched the anime part from OS/Johto.
>Winner of Orange Islands League >Top 8 in both Johto/Hoenn >Beat the battle frontier, was even offered a chance to be Brain frontier and declined to continue his journey >Top 4 in Sinnoh, writers wrote his defeat out with a legendary mon user that spammed Dark Void >Has seen all legendary Pokemon (so far, apart from Volcanion I guess) >Experienced far more than most other trainers >Has a new mega form unknown to everyone else apart from the small ninja village, happens only once in 1k years
>>25022592 >he actually has a personality All Red's incarnations have personality. The game one doesnt have a canon one since its supposed to be you.
>isn't destined to win forever And that's good because?
>>25023499 >Orange leageu champion vs Indigo league champion That's for Red given Ash tried and failed Indigo league, not to mention that the elite 4 appear on the show and Ash is clearly not as good as them.
>Red never visits any region outside of Kanto Because he's not a playable character in other games, not a valid comparison. By percentage, Red won the only league he tried, while ash has onle orange. And Red appeared in Jhoto and Unova.
>Red doesnt visit his mom headcanon. Just because we dont see him moving doesnt mean he doesnt do so, its like saying people on the pokemon world dont go to the bathroom. And even assuming pic is right, it's not a reason why Ash would be better.
>dissapears forever because of Gold headcanon, and he reappears on Unova.
>Kill's raticate headcanon
>wont face Mewtwo without a MasterBall That's a player's choice, so headcanon. You cant really punch Mewtwo in the game either.
>girls wants Ash's ass Not Misty. That said, we are comparing trainers here, not who fucks the most. But I'll let that one pass since its the closest thing to a fact the pic has.
>The chosen one Didnt ash fans constantly say that he's good for being more realistic? Way to keep consistency. I will take "just some guy" becoming special than a shitty the chosen one regurgitation.
tl:dr the guy had to make up shit about Red just to make Ash look better. Then again, ash fans arent exactly known for their reading comprehension.
>>25024488 >Winner of Orange Islands League yes >Top 8 in both Johto/Hoenn There is no hall of fame for 8th place >Beat the battle frontier, was even offered a chance to be Brain frontier and declined to continue his journey A high honor >Top 4 in Sinnoh, writers wrote his defeat out with a legendary mon user that spammed Dark Void didn't win, doesn't count >Has seen all legendary Pokemon (so far, apart from Volcanion I guess) doesn't make a difference >Experienced far more than most other trainers Now you're scraping the bottom of the barrel >Has a new mega form unknown to everyone else apart from the small ninja village, happens only once in 1k years I'd say he was lucky to find that special Froakie, he didn't really do anything to get that new form.
- the only Pokemon you can canonically prove Red caught were the Pokemon who are gifts in Yellow version, Yellow Version's starter, and a Pokemon you're forced to run into - He didn't catch any of the legendaries, because they're all right back where they were originally in HGSS - He never actually defeated Team Rocket, Gold/Lyra did
>>25026843 >didn't win, doesn't count The league in the anime is nothing like in the games. In the games if you loose you can keep challenging the same opponents over and over until you win. In the anime it's a full fledged tournament. Ash is challenging every other trainer on the same journey as him including people who have been doing this for YEARS. And the only reason he didn't win in Sinnoh is because his opponent had a team of legendaries led by a Darkrai that one shot KO'd every other trainer he faced.
>>25027237 > the only Pokemon you can canonically prove Red caught were the Pokemon who are gifts in Yellow version, Yellow Version's starter, and a Pokemon you're forced to run into Again, you people are forgetting that what we see in the games is a representation.
And even then, Red is miles better.
>>25027269 >The league in the anime is nothing like in the games. Its like its a different medium or something!
>. In the games if you loose you can keep challenging the same opponents over and over until you win. lore-wise, its never stated you challenge them more than one time, except maybe Gen 5.
>Ash is challenging every other trainer on the same journey as him including people who have been doing this for YEARS. Yet he loses against people with less time training than him.
>>25031409 When neither character has any personality (except manga Red but there's always one sperg who enters these threads with "WHAT'S THAT NON-CANON UNOFFICIAL FANFIC WEBCOMIC HUH HUH HUH???" at its mention), so yes, achievements are probably the best way to compare them.
>>25031477 Well then compare Ash and Red's achievements
Ash >Collected 48 (53 counting the Orange Islands) Badges >Competed in 5 Pokemon League Conferences and has made Top 16 or higher each time >Defeated all 7 Frontier Brains and offered the opportunity to become a Frontier brain >Champion of the Orange League and in the Hall of Fame >Came in the Top 8 of the Wallace Cup and Jubilife Pokemon Contest and he's not even a Coordinator >Bonded and/or fought alongside every Legendary that currently exists >Saved the world numerous times >Defeated every evil team that currently exists >Only person in the entire Sinnoh region to defeat Tobias' Darkrai AS WELL AS his Latios
Red >Completed the Kanto Pokedex >Became the Indigo League Champion >Captured 150 Pokemon
As a guy that thinks Ash is a better character by nature of being a character, even I can admit that achievements are unfair because Red never bothered to leave Kanto. I mean, it's not like he'd have any problem beating fucking Bugsy.
Satoshi is an ambitious man, unwavering in his determination and no succubus will change that. He wants to overcome tough challenges and doing a girl that's presenting herself is more of a gift than a challenge. So naturally this is boring to him. If anything, this should be an admirable trait.
>>25032043 >It didn't know why the moves weren't working.
But it surely fucking knew they weren't working. If you broke your arm and had to go to the hospital, and you had to open your door, would you use your broken arm or would you use the arm that won't cause you severe pain to use?
>>25032068 You just fucking said it got exhausted every single time it tried to use one!
I watched the battle when the Gen V Ashnime season had just started, then I saw that battle, then saw "YOU'RE SUCH A LITTLE KID" Iris, then stopped watching the Ashnime forever. I can't name specifics about the battle since it was so long ago but I know it was fucking pathetic and you're a drone for defending, out of anything and everything the Ashnime has ever done, that Snivy battle.
>>25032086 >You just fucking said it got exhausted every single time it tried to use one! Right, and it didn't know why they weren't working. Ash told Pikachu to use Thunderbolt and Volt Tackle, neither of them worked and both Ash and Pikachu are confused by it.
>you're a drone for defending, out of anything and everything the Ashnime has ever done, that Snivy battle. Of course because people like you talk shit about Pikachu and Ash because of this without taking things into context. Pikachu lost due to DEM.
Then you completely ignore the rematch where Pikachu, with it's Electric-moves in tact, OHKO'd Serperior. Fag.
>>25032144 Well Red, as a protagonist in the games, is interchangeable with pretty much every protagonist, so just combine what happens in every mainline game for an idea of this hypothetical situation. Remember, GSC and its remakes taught us that you're allowed to win leagues and still go to the next region.
>>25032127 Oh boy, Ash won a battle late in the region before the league, that'll surely matter before he gets reset for XY.
>>25031477 Literally salty over the fact your unofficial fanfic is being ignored as it should be. Hahahaha oh wow!
Redfags are the worst, you can tell that from their Showdown teams and players,they suck so much Red dick that if the game one can't be defended anymore they pull a completely different Red version from some fanmade comics. Worse than fifth gen apologists.
>>25032174 >Oh boy, Ash won a battle late in the region before the league He OHKO'd the fully evolved Serperior with his Electro Ball. If he had his Electric moves, he would have most likely done the same thing to Snivy but we will never know.
>that'll surely matter before he gets reset for XY. But he didn't get reset in XY
>>25030932 Pokespe is still official, deal with it.
>Collected 48 (53 counting the Orange Islands) Badges Red wasnt a player character in other regions, also they were worthless given he didnt finish their leagues >Competed in 5 Pokemon League Conferences and has made Top 16 or higher each time Yet he only won in a filler one >Defeated all 7 Frontier Brains and offered the opportunity to become a Frontier brain Which is inconcistent with his later competence, not to mention this was more than a decade ago >Champion of the Orange League and in the Hall of Fame Actual feat, which was also more than a decade ago >Came in the Top 8 of the Wallace Cup and Jubilife Pokemon Contest and he's not even a Coordinator Red wasnt the MC of Gen 3 >Bonded and/or fought alongside every Legendary that currently exists Hasnt caught them tho >Saved the world numerous times By Deus ex machina usually >Defeated every evil team that currently exists He never defeated Rocket >Only person in the entire Sinnoh region to defeat Tobias' Darkrai AS WELL AS his Latios didnt Tobias win that fight?
All of those points dont take into account the fact that Red was only the MC in the Kanto games (or, taking the origins red into account, we never saw his adventures after Mewtwo), and assumes Ash develops continuously, which is the exact opposite if what you usually say.
>>25032060 >If you broke your arm and had to go to the hospital, and you had to open your door, would you use your broken arm or would you use the arm that won't cause you severe pain to use? I'm pretty sure Ash, and specially his apologist would use the injured hand. They arent that smart.
>>25032502 Your argument makes no sense. The whole thing was to compare each trainer's achievements. It wasn't "compare each other's achievements in Kanto". Are you calling foul because you realize Ash actually has more achievements than Red because he is the ahem, better character?
And then some of these arguments >more than a decade ago What does that have to do with anything? Red did all the shit he did 20 years.
>By Deus ex machina Where? Please point to me any occurence of Ash saving the world due to DEM
>He never defeated Rocket Yes he did, in Unova. They just didn't disband because shutting down your organization after losing to a little kid is fucking retarded.
And also, Red didn't defeat Team Rocket either since the team was still around, admins and all, waiting for Giovanni to return. Ethan is the one who made Team Rocket finally disband.
>didn't Tobias win that fight? That doesn't defeat the fact that Ash was the only one in the entire region to defeat his Darkrai and his Latios. He solo'd the entire region with Darkrai.
>>25032215 Well I guess BW to XY didn't need a reset since Ash was so shit in BW that he lost to a kid dumb enough to only bring five Pokémon to the fight. It's the exception so far, but it's still going to end the same way and then you'll have a reset again.
Red Nigga has at least conquered the league before. He set out with a goal in mind and did it as well as basically completing the original dex.
Ash has never really made any significant accomplishments despite the fact that he could be an okay trainer if he would simply continue to train his pokemon instead of ditching them all on Oak to never be seen again.
>>25033362 Except the anime writers don't think of anything deeper than the most shallow themes or plotlines. Ash will still be that so-so trainer nobody knows until the end of time, any Pokemon he releases or trades away will go back into the void, and each new encounter with a legendary or a new species of Pokemon will just be another forgettable episodic romp in an animated commercial for the games.
The writers don't care. The animators don't care. The children watching it don't care. The characters don't care. Nobody cares.
>>25032694 >They just didn't disband because shutting down your organization after losing to a little kid is fucking retarded. This. >And also, Red didn't defeat Team Rocket either since the team was still around, admins and all, waiting for Giovanni to return. Ethan is the one who made Team Rocket finally disband. This as well.
>>25033917 >tears What tears? And I'm not even a Redfag. I don't care about him at all. It's just that anyone who tries adding any more meaning to a shallow children's commercial for merchandise is delusional and is getting their hopes up for nothing.
>>25032694 Ash is not the better character because of that. He was (by being the face of the anime) allowed to go to all the other regions whereas Red gets shipped off to mount Silver to write him out of the other games. That doesn't mean he is better, just well traveled. As for a definitive I would say Red is the better trainer just based on consistency (whereas Ash is a good as the plot demands), but in terms of being an actual person Ash has more source material at his disposal.
>>25035495 >As for a definitive I would say Red is the better trainer just based on consistency
What consistency? Game Red is as good as the player Origins Red is shit Manga Red is good but plot helps him just as much as Ash.
Ash has his downs but his ups are leagues above most trainers. The biggest difference is that we actually see battles play out in the anime while the games we just know Red won. We don't know how. Just that he did. We know how Ash battles at his best and how strategic he can be. Can't say the same for game Red.
>>25035772 How is that retarded? It's a room. Why can't you attack the barriers to break it? It's perfectly fair and it distinguishes the anime from the games, since in the games you can't do things like dig underground and burn up toxic spikes or break a trick room
>>25022221 An edgelord with genwun syndrome and Charizard pandering vs someone who got movies, visited different regions and battled several relevant opponents and got numerous waifus. Golly gee! Redtards are the worst as always and are on the wrong side of the history.
>>25032694 >Your argument makes no sense. No pro-ash argument makes sense
>The whole thing was to compare each trainer's achievements. It wasn't "compare each other's achievements in Kanto". Red is Kanto's MC, so it makes sense to compare those in Kanto. It makes no sense to compare all of Ash's achievements after it, since Red is not featured there.
That said, Red is still better than Ash.
>Red did all the shit he did 20 years. Yes, and his story ended. Ash's didnt.
>Please point to me any occurence of Ash saving the world due to DEM Aura power, the chosen one, etc.
>Yes he did, in Unova. They just didn't disband because shutting down your organization after losing to a little kid is fucking retarded. So he didnt defeat them for good.
>And also, Red didn't defeat Team Rocket either since the team was still around, admins and all, waiting for Giovanni to return. Ethan is the one who made Team Rocket finally disband. Never said otherwise. That said, pointing this out contradicts your previous statement.
>That doesn't defeat the fact that Ash was the only one in the entire region to defeat his Darkrai and his Latios. He solo'd the entire region with Darkrai. Not the elites.
>>25022221 In terms of battling, red has more talent but ash seems to have more knowledge as a result of his life traveling. I guess that ash vs Origins red would be a close fight, but charizard X would tilt the result to red's favor.
Are you serious? More than half of his team got defeated by Giovanni's Rhyhorn. Every battle he won was because of Charmander/Charizard being the only Pokemon strong enough to pose a threat to his opponent. Fuck his Charizard almost got OHKO'd by Double Kick.
ASh did pretty shitty against Roxie with a 6v3 because he was using his shitty unevolved Pokemon, but Red had no excuse to almost lose a 6v2 with fully capable Pokemon.
>>25037181 > Every battle he won was because of Charmander/Charizard being the only Pokemon strong enough to pose a threat to his opponent. Fuck his Charizard almost got OHKO'd by Double Kick. That's because, and I know its hard for people here to grasp, the origin was the story of Red's bond with Charmander-Charizard.
Red won the league(which includes defeating the elite 4, all of which are shown in the anime show and as way better trainers than Ash), he's objetively better than Ash.
>>25037066 >Red is Kanto's MC, so it makes sense to compare those in Kanto. That wasn't what was said though. What was said to compare both of their achievements you retard. I feel like you just can't accept that Ash has more achievements than Red.
>That said, Red is still better than Ash In no way shape or form
>Ash didn't Which is good because he's continuing to explore the Pokemon world. Red stopped and because of that he got his ass kicked by Ethan.
>Aura power Ash didn't save the world with his powers though, Lucario did >The chosen one This isn't DEM and wasn't actually the chosen one, it was just mistranslation by 4kids you fucking dubfag.
>So he didnt defeat them for good. Neither did Red.
>Not the elites He didn't challenge the Elite Four.
>>25037234 >What was said to compare both of their achievements you retard. I feel like you just can't accept that Ash has more achievements than Red. Which is not a good comparison since Red doesnt get more achievements not for being incompetent, but for not being featured. It's like saying Batman is a better fighter than Luke Skywalker because he won more fights.
And even then, Red won the very thing Ash strives and fails to do, so yeah, Red is better. Ash's "achievements" are just things you count because he doesnt have actual ones or shit that;s like a decade old ( which contradicts the usual "Ash is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT character each season" "argument" you fags make every time we discuss him)
>Red stopped and because of that he got his ass kicked by Ethan. Because its an NPC. Do you know what an NPC is do you? Oh, wait, you probably dont.
>Neither did Red. Neither did ash
>He didn't challenge the Elite Four. Because he didnt even make it to that point. Thanks for proving me right.
>>25037250 >what is victory road And that implies the elite four are better than all the other trainers Ash had to fight...and he couldnt beat, so yeah.
>>25037263 >So his bond excuses his shitty performance and the incompetence of his Pokemon? They didnt have much time to develop his other mons, so yeah, they had to use what they could to develop charizard. Pretty ironic an Ashfag doesnt like bonds btw.
>>25037291 >what is victory road You can't be serious. If you lose a battle in Victory Road, all you do is rechallenge that trainer. Victory Road isn't a tournament, it's a meeting spot where trainers train and test their skills against other strong trainers.
>>25037291 > they had to use what they could to develop charizard. Pretty ironic an Ashfag doesnt like bonds btw.
Considering the how much the franchise shoves that lesson into every source of media, of course someone is going to bring it up. Even OS/Johto Ash gave each mon a chance to shine, even if Pika and Charizard were his blatant aces at the time. Origins Red just looks like the 8 year old that facerolled the game with his starter with 4 STAB moves.
Ash develops at a fucking snail's pace with an above average record.
Origins Red is getting really close to 'chosen one' territory, with way too fast pacing, but he does 'finish'.
It's apples vs oranges to me. I'm personally just tired of all these threads assuming a main character needs to be the best thing ever because either one is pretty flawed.
>>25037390 >Lol so now Red's lost against Ethan is excused because "m-muh NPC"? I was reffering to him being stuck at Mt Silver, not his defeat, we dont really know whether he still wanted to travel or not, we just find him there.
Though yeah, he is defeated by Ethan because he's a boss on a game where Ethan is playable, so he was technically defeated for being an NPC.
Yet, it's only one loss against...how many does Ash have?
>>25037410 > didn't even properly exist Pretty sure Ho-Oh was already made when it appeared on the anime.
>>25037419 > Even OS/Johto Ash gave each mon a chance to shine, even if Pika and Charizard were his blatant aces at the time. Yes, because Ash is, you know, part of a tvshow which has different pacing that the limited 2 hours the origin had, of course Ash's mons would get more screen time. You're retarded for even bringing that up. And even then Red's bond with charizard amounted to something since they achieved their goals and got a closure, Ash's and Pikachu 's bond didnt amount to anything ( not to mention that apparently he has a bigger bond with Greninja than Pikachu now)
>Ash develops at a fucking snail's pace with an above average record. Keep telling yourself that, maybe in Gen 97 Ash will finally get to the league final fight. Great pacing dude.
>Origins Red is getting really close to 'chosen one' territory Not really, no
> I'm personally just tired of all these threads assuming a main character needs to be the best thing ever because either one is pretty flawed. An MC has to develop consistently, be entertainig and make you root for him ( most of the times, but we're talking about a kids franchise). Its not like Origins Red is a great character, its more Ash's character being so fucking shit literally everything is better.
>>25037443 >Keep telling yourself that, maybe in Gen 97 Ash will finally get to the league final fight. Great pacing dude.
Did you think I was complimenting Ash there? Because I wasn't. Slow down, man.
>Not really, no Did you see that Giovanni flashback with the charmander? It almost makes it seem that Red was the ideal trainer to set him straight, in a way.
>An MC has to develop consistently, be entertainig and make you root for him ( most of the times, but we're talking about a kids franchise). Its not like Origins Red is a great character, its more Ash's character being so fucking shit literally everything is better.
So no development is better than inconsistent development? I respect your opinion, but I think both are equally shit in these cases. Ash goes so slow you stop caring after a point, Origins goes so fast you feel like you missed something.
>>25037498 If we take Origins into account, he also lost to Green and Giovanni.
Then you ask how many times Ash has lost but he's traveled more so his losses will obviously be more than Red's because he's battled more trainers. How many actual trainers did Red battle in Origins that wasn't Green, Gym Leaders, or the Elite Four? The Youngster?
>>25037501 > It almost makes it seem that Red was the ideal trainer to set him straight, in a way. hardly the chosen one
>So no development is better than inconsistent development? No. But Red has development and Ash doesnt. Ash's development is not slow, its nonexistant, people here pretend it exists to win these arguments (and get to the point of denying that when defending XY) but in reality all the "progress" he makes is faux because its reseted later or outright ignored. Red progressed on a factual way which you can clearly see in the origin, Ash just does random shit.
Ash is not the result of any sort of planning, is the result of some of the worst people on the creative industry pandering to an audience they dont appreciate and an adult audience that will like whatever they will do.
>>25037530 Is isn't a fucking pokemon battle, this is Ash trying to kill a fucking person with a spirit bomb. He threw that shit at Giovanni which is illegal in pokemon so Ash losses and he should be fucking arrested.
>>25037528 >Red progressed on a factual way which you can clearly see in the origin How? iirc he never trained or did anything to make his Pokemon stronger. He just walked to the next battle and relied on Charizard's bs last second OHKO's
>>25037555 >iirc he never trained or did anything to make his Pokemon stronger. His fights in the first part made him understand pokemon battles, and he grows from fresh trainer to champion tier. You just dont see him training, but its obvious it happens. Charmander doesnt exactly evolve by stone you know?
>>25037598 >reaching something from point a to point b doesn't make someone "developed" though That's literally what development is.
>it only reset one time, and there's a reason people hate that He becomes a champion in the orange islands, then he's a noob in Jhoto. He defeats the battle frontier, which is above champion level and still struggles in Sinnoh.
>the fact that you claim it is nonexistent implies that you can switch OS Ash and XY Ash's positions and have the same result, when it won't
No. OS Ash is a noob who just started. XY Ash is a noob who had lots of experience yet didnt develop for that and is still a retarded 10 year old kid who cant win a league.
>>25037603 And the entire show, but again, keep telling yourself he actually develops.
>>25037614 >You just dont see him losing, but its obvious it happens. proof?
>>25037654 >He becomes a champion in the orange islands, then he's a noob in Jhoto. >noob in Jhoto Are you literally retarded? He had to leave his Charizard at some training place because he was literally steamrolling through Johto with it
>>25037671 >He had to leave his Charizard at some training place because he was literally steamrolling through Johto with it He had to leave Charizard literally to make Charizard stronger, are you retarded? Even then, if Charizard was so OP, why didnt he win the league despite having type advantage and all?
>>25037678 >Charmander evolved to Charizard. That doesn't mean he trained? Charmander literally evolved into Charmeleon out of nowhere. All we saw Red do throughout the entirety of Origins with his Charizard is battle. We don't even see him feeding the motherfucker.
Oh boy what endless circle argument do you guys want to have next >Whose team has the GOAT and who is just a meme? >Whose Waifu is is the best and therefore the rest are shit? >Best pony? >USA vs the World banter? seriously every board same shit different topic, you take a subjective view and try to make it objective to validate yourselves. All it does is create an argument general to eat up posts while the rest of the board stagnates.
>>25037654 >He becomes a champion in the orange islands, then he's a noob in Jhoto. Which he isn't. Using new Pokemon, yeah, but that's literally it. >He defeats the battle frontier, which is above champion level and still struggles in Sinnoh. The struggle was with Paul who had the same league and training experience as Ash had. He had a different mentality that was more prone to results mean everything.
>And the entire show, but again, keep telling yourself he actually develops. Except that's fucking wrong.
>>25037678 >He had to leave Charizard literally to make Charizard stronger, are you retarded? He didn't bring back Charizard until the League, are you literally retarded? And that wasn't the only Pokemon he had to leave behind because they were too powerful. He did the same with Squirtle as well as Bulbasaur but Bulbasaur stayed.
>>25037651 Because that is exactly what it is. The spirit bomb was to neutralize the control over the genie pokes he had, but not actually defeat any pokemon he had. Kind of like shooting TR balloon instead of fighting their four-six shit pokemon first
>>25037704 What is your point? First you say even if something wasn't shown, it obviously happens, and when I bring up Red losing you say that didn't happen. Red wasn't shown training at all. It NEVER happened.
>>25037740 The point of him starting over is so in the current gen he isn't still rolling with his overleveled Kanto team. and their lack of use, sans Pika, leaves them at about the same level every time he calls them up. Which is to say, about as good as the team he has by the end of the season for that region.
>>25037740 No, he's smart in that when he travels a new region he wants to travel with the new Pokemon he find there. Like he said all the way back in Johto and Hoen, it isn't fun if he's using his already powerful Pokemon and just steamrolls the region.
>>25037766 >I want a challenge, not to win, otherwise I would lose my purpose in life because I completed my goal. He gimps himself at the start of every run to insure failure, because he is afraid that if he actually became the best he wouldn't know what t do then.
>>25037727 >>25037790 >Yeah, such as Pikachu, Charizard or Bulbasaur right? Pikachu, everyone else got sent off and got replaced.
>So if Ash is BF tier and had consistent development, why didnt he win in Sinnoh?
>Inb4 m-muh legends >He beat legends in BF. You mean fighting two legendaries in a row not to mention he didn't have the strongest team with him isn't enough when the guy that battled afterwards got swept by Darkrai alone?
>Sure thing bud, he is definitely winning the Gen 8200 league, he just develops slowly amirite? Unova is literally the only reset case.
>Yes, but not because he was too strong for the gyms. Except the point is that those Pokemon had more battle experience so they were stronger.
I mean fuck, the gym leaders even try giving the challenger's a test as they battle.
>>25037838 The rest of that is fine but >Mewtwo the pokemon that in his intro movie recked Gary Oak by himself, kills a few dudes, is the reason ASH got his 8th badge by forcing Gio to let J&J fuck up, and defeated about 20 trainers with two Psychic shots and snag balls.
>>25037870 >You're retarded. Sure thing bud, it's not like pokemon can evolve by level or anything.
>>25037876 >Pikachu, everyone else got sent off and got replaced. That happened way into Jhoto though.
>You mean fighting two legendaries in a row Brandon had 3.
>not to mention he didn't have the strongest team with him isn't enough when the guy that battled afterwards got swept by Darkrai alone? So he's retarded then.
>Except the point is that those Pokemon had more battle experience so they were stronger. In Squirtle's case it was to go back with his old friends, him being strong wasnt important. Charizard was abandoned literally for not being strong enough.
Ladies please you are both so ugly. >one side is a guy who is never shown to train but always wins getting batted back by "pics or it didn't happen" >the other-side is always training but loses 1 out of every 10 getting shit on for overexposure and taking to long to do the one thing he set out to do
>>25037904 >That happened way into Jhoto though. Charizard and Squirtle were gone by the second gym and Ash was using the Johto Pokemon most of the time. >Brandon had 3. He only used two in his battle with Ash. >So he's retarded then. No genius. The stronger Pokemon were used with Paul, Charizard was training and what not. That has nothing to do with with being retarded. >In Squirtle's case it was to go back with his old friends, him being strong wasnt important. >Charizard was abandoned literally for not being strong enough. Squirtle not being strong wasn't important, but it was strong. Charizard was left because it thought it was strong but there were stronger ones at the place. They had more battle experience and were stronger than what most people in Johto seemed used to deal with.
>>25037981 How do you train in the games? By battles.
>>25037985 >one side is a guy who is never shown to train but always wins getting batted back by "pics or it didn't happen" The only Red that I cant recall a defeat is the origins one, and we only see parts of his journey. And the people arguing against him are just literally retarded.
>but loses 1 out of every 10 getting shit on for overexposure and taking to long to do the one thing he set out to do Which is a legitimate complaint.
>>25037994 Oh, sure, its not like watching a show for 20 years and not noticing a pattern is more dumbass than forgetting a single detail of an episode 10 years ago.
>>25038005 >the realism card Its not realistic for a 10 year old to travel that long around the worls without major problems, defeat the same two guys constantly by sending them flying to the air and, you know, training pokemon.
>>25038011 >Charizard and Squirtle were gone by the second gym and Ash was using the Johto Pokemon most of the time. Really? I'm not sure. It sure felt that way then given how much pointless episodes Jhoto had.
>He only used two in his battle with Ash. same as Tobias then, good.
>No genius. The stronger Pokemon were used with Paul, Charizard was training and what not. That has nothing to do with with being retarded. Oh, sure, the next time I have to face an important trial, I'll make sure I'm not at my best, that's completely reasonable.
>Squirtle not being strong wasn't important, but it was strong. My point, yeah.
>Charizard was left because it thought it was strong but there were stronger ones at the place. They had more battle experience and were stronger than what most people in Johto seemed used to deal with. Exactly.
>>25038029 Exactly, he gained experience from his battles against Green, Brock, Youngster, Misty, Surge, Team Rocket Grunt, Erika, Koga, Sabrina, Giovanni, Blaine, and Giovanni again. As well as any of the battles, if they were battles, that occured when he caught Pokemon, since we clearly saw that he made captures just by throwing the Pokeballs instead of actually battling.
Red is. Because in all media he was in, he got better. Ash is no better of a trainer than when he left pallet town.
That's the soul of being a good trainer. You have to be a strong leader, and your mons need to be strong fighters. And in every sense of the word, Ash has always been the weak link of his team. Becase let's be honest. How else are they going to milk him for so long except never let him grow as a person or a trainer.
>Red is the silent protag of the first game in 96 and the secret boss in the game from 1999 (I haven't played the last two to completion so he may be there too but that is more fanservice than plot) Everything else about Red is just trying to retcon a more fleshedout backstory of a self insert.
>Ash is a more relateable Red stand-in for the 1997 anime to promote the series Which is why he does most of the same shit including fight Team Rocket He got so popular that they made Yellow in 98 just to have the game be more like the anime (right down to Ash being the default name instead of Red).
End of the day it is RPG protag of '1' game vs the star of a 19 year long anime that supplemented him after 1 year of existence (2 years after Red&Blue) as the hero of Red's own game.
>>25038081 That just makes him older. He is anywhere from almost 12 and a half (by the every day=1 ep model) to into his 20s by now. >>25038144 This. Red, as a video game character has nowhere to go but up. Meanwhile the status quo of a tv show made Ash level off around mid season 1 and just hover around there for 20 years.
>>25038179 Mhm. Even the Manga focuses on other people, so if Red becomes god, we can look at other people. If Ash becomes the best, we just can't have any more episodes we can milk of him. Ash hasn't improved and cannot improve.
>>25038212 But it's completely true. The anime is doomed to be suffocated by the status quo. He made the same mistake twice. Involving attract, in Unova. Once when fighting the Snivy ("Huh...so it's female") And two when he was shocked that Female on Female attract didn't work against Elesa. Which wasn't too long after.
>>25038212 >I don't believe you, therefore you are lying. Score one for Atheists. That is the level of your reply. Now, explain to me, why hasn't he been allowed to win a main league other than the obvious meta of because the show will end. He comes in just as strong with his new team every time and still can't get the job done. It is because if Ash wins the big one he has no more mountains to conquer and just shipping him off to the next game map and resetting him to idiot who still doesn't understand typing doesn't make sense.
>>25038243 Best Wishes was a reboot and stated as such. Ash currently in XY is undoubtedly a stronger trainer than he was back in the original series. It's not even up for a debate. He knows so much more, he takes things more seriously, thinks more about his battles and Pokemon, and uses strategies that isn't AIM FOR THE HORN or SHOCK THE SPRINKLERS. You can call bullshit about X-scissors breaking Trick Room all you want but it is a legitimate and smart strategy. X-scissors is a bug-move, Trick Room is a Psychic-move that makes a physical barrier. Bug being strong against Psychic, put two and two together and you realize it makes sense.
>>25038253 No, I'm going to throw something out there.
Why did winning the league stop Red from going any further? Every other Champion travels to other regions and compete in competitions and meet and battle other trainers, so why did Red stop? Don't say because the game is over because hundreds upon hundreds of games feature the same protagonist continuing a story. There is literally no reason for Red to have stopped at winning the Kanto League and not done anything after besides going up into a mountain for two years to train. He's the strongest trainer in Kanto, so what? There will be someone better who comes eventually.
Ash can win any League since it has already been established that winning the League is just the first step, then you have to win the Champion League which is just the Elite Four and the Champion of the region.
>resetting him to idiot who still doesnt understand typing
>>25038311 Except he doesn't. He still makes the same mistakes he made in Kanto. Once again, using attract on a pokemon you KNOW is the same Gender as yours, as well as that fuck up where he had to leave the gym in B/W.
X-Scissors breaking trick room actually makes LESS sense than aiming for the horn or the sprinklers. Because those have grounds in science. Mainly having to do with conductivity and shit. You're using something physical to break something supernatural. He didn't break the concentration required to hold a trick room up, he broke the trick room with X-Scissors, because the same bullshit as thunder armor.
And yes, he still does not understand typing. Which is unforgivable for not just someone who grew up in a pokemon world, but calls himself a trainer.
But if you really want more hard proof that Red > Ash, then here.
Red caught MEwtwo with an Ultra Ball, Ash couldn't lay as much as a scratch on Mewtwo.
>>25038311 Outside the fact he wasn't even the protag of his own game by the time Gold and Silver (Not Red and Blue 2) came out. Nintendo wanted new protags instead of inventing a reason Red shouldn't be the world beater you end PKM Red with. Because unlike regular RPGs we can't just strip him of everything and force him to start from scratch case in point Black and White two you are not the same protag two years removed from toppling Pokepeta.
No meta He figured that he had down all there is to do because like most people in Kanto they didn't know about other regions or Pokemon outside their own until it was brought to there attention and the moment it is actually brought to Red's attention is the last time we see him.Basically he fucked off to train because he didn't know there was anything more to do.
And this every other Champ travels thing applies to things that happened once Red didn't exist anymore. It is tacked on canon well after red's story ends for the new game/season
Ash is doomed to being a marketing tool. The writers use him in ways which are completely illogical for his character. This includes: a.Ash has a goal with no solid motive behind it. b.Ash is rarely seen doing any work towards his competitive goal. You will more often see a Pokemon being showcased for 22 minutes. He doesn't even seem fully dedicated to his own goal. c.The anime places heavy emphasis on friendship. It's very hypocritical how Ash tosses his Pokemon, his so called friends, aside like their old toys. To add insult to injury, Ash ends up catching the same type of Pokemon he's neglecting at home. Poor totodile has been rotting away at home for years. At least Red grew. Ash is stuck in this bizarre loop of failure.
>>25038377 >Once again, using attract on a pokemon you KNOW is the same Gender as yours, as well as that fuck up where he had to leave the gym in B/W. Both of these was in BW, not XY. BW was a reboot, not XY. BW was the one with inconsistencies, not XY.
>And yes, he still does not understand typing Point to me. If you say something from BW then you're retarded.
>Red caught MEwtwo with an Ultra Ball, Ash couldn't lay as much as a scratch on Mewtwo. Two entirely different Mewtwos, faggot.
>>25038408 It's all one canon. BW did not start out with Ash getting his first Pokemon. It started out showing us where he had been. BW is not a reboot, the former seasons still happened.
Your argument seems to hinge on BW being a reboot, which it wasn't. As I said, BW starts off by showing us that he had been a Pokemon trainer long before and that yes, everything before was still the same canon.
Face it. BW was not a reboot.
And you're right on Mewtwo. If I recall correctly, the Mewtwo from Origin was stronger. All it took was a few machines to fuck over Mewtwo in that special.
>>25038430 >BW is not a reboot The writers and promoters literally said it was a reboot. That's why there was a change in animation style, zero continuity to the previous series until when they finally realized the whole reboot thing wasn't selling which is why they brought back Dawn, Charizard, the Team Plasma arc, Clair, Alexa and the 6th gen Pokemon, etc.
>>25038430 The Mewtwo from Origins was a lot weaker than the Mewtwo from the main anime. Mewtwo from Origins got its shit kicked in by Charizard of all things and actually got captured in a Ultra Ball. It didn't even display the strengths the Mewtwo in the main anime had, like being able to develop a clone system, having the power to change the weather, create islands, destroy the world, etc.
>all it took was a few machines Of course, because those machines are designed to paralyze Mewtwo. Even in the games it literally took one machine to capture Xerneas/Yveltal
And you're right. The games can be seen as a spiritual reboot. But it's not a reboot where it matters. Which is in continuity. For it to be a proper reboot, all the previous situations needed to be null and void, which they were not, and therefore, eerything in the previous seasons mattered.
>>25038449 ...You just said in your own statement that they decided to not make it a reboot.
>>25038475 I might be wrong, though I believe it was machines in particular. I don't know if this particular argument can be strong in either direction, though...because there was little said about either of them. But in the spirit of fairness, perhaps I was wrong.
>>25038496 It was a reboot until Dawn came back. All the previous events were ignored and Ash acted like he had never been on a journey before until Dawn returned and suddenly he remembered everything and somewhat became better than how shitty he was.
>>25038519 But if the reboot (If we say that there was one planned) didn't stick, then it wasn't a reboot in the way that mattered. The main issue is the question of "Is the seasons before BW canon." And by that statement, it's admitting that yes it was canon.
>>25038586 I recall that they actually did show pictures and sht to start with. And they tried to gve a reason why Pikachu was weaker in the beginning.
However, the problem is that has long since unstuck, and it doesn't invalidate my biggest point. Everything before the reboot and after take place in the same universe with the same Ash. And therefore, the original point, which is that any complaints I point out through the run of BW and X/Y are invalid because it was a "reboot", IS invalid. Being a planned reboot is nothing in the grand scope of this argument.
>>25038615 But see, that's the deal. A lot of the things being described from BW is during that time when that "reboot" was being done because XY they're following the linear progression. People like using BW but that in itself is using an inconsistent example.
>people still combining the Manga, Origins and Game Red. Stop fucking doing this. All three are different characters for fuck sake.
>Manga Red Has done almost everything Ash has done. Saved the world, was killed and brought back, traveled to other regions. He's the one that could give Ash a run for his money, but the two would be chums from the get go and probably fight the villain of the day. Saw Sabrina shirtless. He helped defeat a few major villain teams, and that's about it.
>Origins Red Literally knew NOTHING about Pokemon when he started. He only chose Charmander cause it was fire, and fire's red. He then ended up catching all 150 known Pokemon and chased after Mew cause it was outside the fucking window.
>Game Red Made Team Rocket Disband the first time, isn't known how many pokemon he catches (cause he's fucking you.), doesn't talk like the other two reds, after defeating the Pokemon League for Kanto, he hid in Mt. Silver, fought Gold, then went back into hiding until Black and White came around, and entered himself in the tournaments.
All three are fucking different, learn this people.
>>25038619 Hmm...I do see your point, yeah. That would make it more enjoyable to me, personally, as it puts various things in a new light.
However, in the first scenario, while that might deepen Ash as a character, it doesn't make him a better trainer, or even that much better of a character. Though as a character, it would have done quite a bit to make him better if it was utilized better or at all.
And for the second point of view, as >>25038466 had pointed out, we cannot accept a meta reason as an excuse for Red or Ash being a certain way. And while hilarious, that is also a meta reason. Though to be fair, if that did happen, I wouldn't blame them. GOd fucking dammit Tobias left a bad taste in my mouth.
>>25038650 See my commentary on the Doylist point of view. That's a meta example, and because it DID happen, though there were more examples later after they brought Dawn back and such (In fact, bringing Dawn, Charizard, and the Butterfree plotline up in and of itself is bad writing due to them admitting such a thing happened in canon and purposefully recycling this wholesale), it has place in this argument, and there's no use trying to discredit the argument that involves such things.
>>25038671 This entire post has a good point. Though I feel we're simply taking the three and finding common points that we can use.
Manga Red is why Ash upsets me so much. Manga Red is what Ash could have been, but instead of using someone new each part (a la the games or JJBA), they needed to keep Ash in a status quo, because of this need to stretch him over more years than many of the fans have been alive.
>Ash is a more relateable Red stand-in for the 1997 anime I'd kill myself if I ever identified with Ash. You cant go worse than that.
>End of the day it is RPG protag of '1' game vs the star of a 19 year long anime that supplemented him after 1 year of existence (2 years after Red&Blue) as the hero of Red's own game. Yeah, they are different versions of the same idea. All the more reason to compare them dont you think? Its not like we are comparing Ash to, say , Jesse Pinkman.
>>25038311 >Best Wishes was a reboot and stated as such. He still has his previous mons so no. Also, if that were true, it means that the "original Ash"'s journey "ended" with him losing to a Darkrai and never winning the league.
>Why did winning the league stop Red from going any further? Because he's not a playable character after that?
>Every other Champion travels to other regions and compete in competitions and meet and battle other trainers, so why did Red stop >what is PWT Also, the other champions are proper characters. Red is different since it was also your self insert in the Kanto games so they dont want to give him an actual personality. Every appearance of him after Gen 2 was on obligation, not to develop him more. That's also why they never made Ethan or Brendan a boss in other games.
tl;dr you have no clue about the game Red.
>Ash can win any League since it has already been established that winning the League is just the first step, then you have to win the Champion League which is just the Elite Four and the Champion of the region. So why didnt he do that already?
>>25039454 No because as I have pointed out Ash literally replaced Red, there is no comparison. Ash gets more glory by virtue of existing 10 times as long as Red and yet he still would be out matched 1v1 because he is constantly trading in Pokemon and Red trains the ones he got. Red is Ash if he stayed in Kanto and didn't shuffle his team, Ash is every protag in the game series as a 2nd tier trainer.
>>25039555 >No because as I have pointed out Ash literally replaced Red, there is no comparison. Ash didnt replace Red, is a possible anime version of Red. I get what you mean by "replace" but you worded it poorly.
That said, what you said means there is a comparison more than in other cases. Who are we "allowed" to compare Ash and Red with then?
>>25039599 There isn't an 'allowed'. It is a rigged game, in favor of Ash. If you went apples to apples on Kanto, Red wins. but if you take the other 17 years of Pokemon that Ash is the face of while the game had a revolving door of protags, Ash wins based on volume of resume alone, let alone feats.
>>25039611 >There isn't an 'allowed'. It is a rigged game, in favor of Ash. Not really. For example, if the amount of time is your problem, then just count Ash's feats in Kanto, which is where he is Red's expy.
Also, there are objective feats Red did that Ash cant do, even taking into account all of the show("reboot" or not). The problem is that Ashfags's standards for "feats" are as low as their reading comprehension. Like, Ash meets Ho-oh and that's a feat, despite Ash not even trying to look for it.
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