how do we fiz MMO genre?

delete it and never look back

fix*

no pvp and no group content

>>376075646
wait 3 years and see what the next big MMO is and see if they fixed it

Remove online play.

>>376075646
no forced grouping or raids

>>376075646
get rid of themepark there fixed you are welcome

>>376075646
by leaving e-sports\organized pvp to mobas and fucusing back on rolepaying and adventuring which is not to say im against world pvp, it's the obsession with e-peen that needs to die

>>376075646
Carbonate it

>>376075646
Reset the internet

>>376075646
Let it die and move on with your life.

>>376075646
We don't really. MMOs with a variety of mechanics and directions that people want are continuously coming out - and those mechanics, settings, direction, etc. are all being realized to varying degrees of success but aren't drawing in people that are saying, "I want an MMO with X and Y and Z" because they already have an MMO that despite its failings and/or lack of XYZ, or XZ or XY or YZ or what have you, is something they've put time into and continue to play because of it.

You can say sunken time fallacy, or genuine enjoyment for its core but have become tired of it, or just being someone that has little else to do so they play this MMO - whatever it may be the genre is rather broad and filled with a variety of experiences that cater to fanbases of varying sizes and if they haven't hooked you in despite having XYZ mechanics included its because you really didn't want to be in the first place more likely than it was "the mechanics weren't done right."

People tend to desire similar experiences to what they know but with iteration and evolution baked in - but they can't see the forest for the trees and become fixated on their desires for iteration/evolution and play an MMO for that alone and then realize that what they really wanted was [current MMO they play] with XYZ attached on and fully realized.

The chances of that happening are comparatively small.

Make it so that people can't just get to the "endgame" solo. On that note, make it so that people need to group together to progress.
Remove the theme park linearity.
Ban people who data mine upcoming content and post strategies prerelease. Like holy shit, those people ruin the experience.

Delete money. Don't use fucking money.

Trade in commodity currency only.

what's the mmo with the best action based combat out today?

>>376076952
That shit sucks as well. I hate forced cooperation bullshit, it really harms some jobs that are less required and causes big ostracization to those people. At the same time it favours cliques and elitism which harm the game experience.

>>376075646
Perfect the combat. The combat is usually the backbone of most games, so when you go online and it waters down to a point and click adventure (at worst) or a very shallow, crappy "fighting game" (Tera, Black Desert) then no matter how high your numbers get things will always be boring and bad.

Put everyone on the same team (so no Alliance vs Horde) for simplicity sake and to give you development time to do other stuff. Not to mention focus the game.

Now, limit the game to a bunch of detailed instances rather than a bunch of open world b/s. Better to pack a LOT into a "small" area than to have a huge area that plays the same. Go NUTS with those areas. Have environmental interaction and ledges to throw enemies off off, lava to fall into, catwalks, you name it. Set it up so that they're basically super detailed sandbox areas, ones you can interact with and improve as you go. Ones you can learn and don't feel like backtracking when you get sent back there because the first time you'll be on the roofs and the dozenth in the sewers or some shit. Make it so that people can "fix" or "upgrade" areas like turning on the power so elevators start working, giving new life and easier access to areas.

Take away the numbers game. We have to find a new way to differentiate players besides "my sword hits 1000x harder than yours and looks better doing it too." I'm alright with new abilities and access to better items to be sure if done the right way, but segregating new players from old is just another way MMOs keep friends apart. Everyone should be able to roll with everyone. Don't make the "level 50" guys hit harder, make their bullets bounce off of walls, or give them clearance to go into new areas. Maybe taking some noobs if the higher ups vouch for them or something. Of course, there needs to be areas ONLY high class people can go into as well, just to give you incentive to bust your ass and get gudd.

>>376077889

No grind. MMOs love to give you grind and I understand why, but it's boring. Rather than give people grind, give them something to shoot for that is simply far off? There's a difference between going "kill 100 rancors and come back" and "It takes 100 screws or 5 gold to build a turret, 30 gold to get a horse, and 15 gold to build a gun attachment. How you get them and what order is up to you, if you want them at all."

Let people share everything. If I got a friend who wants to give me a fancy mount, let him. I don't like everything being bind on pickup or bind on x because they want everyone to grind like crazy. That's not how it works irl or in other games, keep it out of here too.

Reward players for PLAYING the game. Hire some refs or admins to run around and give out tokens that you can't earn any other way for playing the game. You can get tokens for RPing hard, for going back for a buddy that got left behind, for PKing an enemy when the odds were against you, or just otherwise going above and beyond. Sure, I want the game to be able to give some automatically, but it'd feel extra nice to get the recognition SOMEHOW. Idc how. But people should be encouraged to just game. Not min-max, not exploit. Game. Make that the rule not the exception. Games shouldn't feel like jobs and it's hard not to get tempted to play like it IS one when you're left behind by anyone and everyone.

No microtransactions or pay to win.

Keep the graphics up. People say they don't care about good graphics, but they do. A lot. Hell, Black Desert was most famous for its graphics long before any gameplay got shown AT. ALL.

All in all, stop trying to be the next WOW, do your own thing, and do it well.

>>376077307
>wanting action based combat in an MMO
you're the problem

>>376075646
Literally delete this genre and never look back.
This is the type of cunts that want to play MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games now:

>>376076007
>>376076278
>>376077385

>>376075646
Give the entire world gigabit internet with 0 ping so we can leave behind shitty mmo "combat"

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>>376078806
>0 ping

>>376078732
dude forced parties lmao
you can have group content without being forced together

>>376077889
>>376078483

That's 80% Guild Wars. Wish they'd make a sequel.

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>>376079664

>>376079664
>doesn't want to play with other people in multiplayer game
this why singleplayer games exist. there you can have you safe space without being "forced" to interact with other people. you are exactly what is wrong with MMOs these days.

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>>376075646
Make it prohibitively difficult to play alone and don't automate grouping people up

Imagine a game where you can't even leave the starting town because the mobs are so aggressive and difficult you can't fight them alone. You need a buddy to fight with you or you'll get mulched. Either someone to heal you or someone to DPS down with you. You either find another newby to join you and learn to play together or you get carried by someone who knows what they're doing. Either way playing requires social interaction and being mutually beneficial to each other.

This solves casualization and non-interactive trends in one.

>>376080273
but he's right

GW1 you could solo the entire game but people still grouped up all the time.

>>376080682
GW1 could also be played offline with NPC party members. It was an MMO made for people without internet connections, that's not surprising.

>>376080682
>soloing
>in MMO
>acceptable
This is why this meme has to end.

>>376080874
/thread

>>376075646
Add CO2

>>376077385
t. FFXIV mnk

>>376080273
It's fucking retarded and immersion breaking when you're trying to roleplay alone, but you can't make any progress without being in a guild of shitters who won't stop talking garbage about their real lives all the fucking time.

What's the fucking point then? Grab a fucking calculator and hit the random button while you chitchat instead.

>>376077385
>I have no friends who play MMO's
Are you antisocial in game just like real life? What is your fantasy anon?

>>376080787
it couldn't be played offline you retard.

>>376081481
Muh immersion is the shittiest reason for anything in games

>Don't make every player THE ALMIGHTY CHOSEN HERO
>Let them pursue recognition through hard work and skill
>Stats aren't visibly shown, player and equips (If you find a sword you need to either test it for its durability and power, a player with blacksmith can get some hints on this same for other job classes)
>Stats go up whenever you do actions, walking running jumping swinging against a training dummy etc
>Certain stats go down if you are fatigued or hungry, you need to actually spend time sitting at an Inn or any other place
>Spending time with other players are rewarded with happiness and morale to spend more time training
>Player made camps are a thing for large amount of players going into raids or enemy strongholds
>Economy is done via merchants that start of with small tents and can ultimately own a shop managed by NPC's
>Mobs are difficult
>Mobs only drop their items (ears, horns, teeth...etc) nothing else.
>Damaged equipment will start to rot and fall apart
>Mobs also have stamina, in long battles they will start to slow down yet can reach a rage mode if trapped against a wall
>Guilds can own mobs territory and manage the resources inside, its the guild job to provide safety even in the "low level" zones.
>Getting a lot of adjacent zones can lead to the creation of small/large countries ran by guilds
>At this point guild PvP becomes a world event of country vs country for territories, or just allies.
>More resources than the default mmo wood, iron etc each guild owned country is tasked with research to unlock stuff.
>One guild owned country can have coal based vehicles while the other haven't researched even good weapons
>You can contract player assassins to sabotage research of other countries
>You can have research agreements with other countries
>Players are individuals and can still be free travelers
>Countries can hire independent players to be mercenaries, a timed guild member for war.
>At death, character stats are reset(you keep items)

>>376082089
Then, as i said, what's the fucking point?

>>376082039
>what is a private server?
I dunno buddy, what is it?

Delete zeny, delete gold.

Force the players to trade whatever shit they find valuable to develop a market on their own.

>>376082243
A circlejerk of faggots that pay to win and suck the admins cock for ingame shit?

>>376081481
>Roleplay Alone
>Alone

How is that roleplaying? Why not join a heavy RP guild or start your own with interviews and such. Like I played NWN hardcore rp servers where OOC chat was essentially banned. There are RP guild in the mainstream MMO's who do the same thing, they take time to get into.

>>376075646
Add back in downtown.

>>376075646
No instanced content.
Required grouping to level.
The primary experience of the game should be the leveling not raiding and shit so leveling should take a long time.
Expansions shouldn't trivialize old content.
They should stick to either PvE or PvP and not try to do both.
No name changes or server transfers. If you fuck up your reputation on a server you are either stuck with it or you reroll.

>>376082435
Sounds like Original EQ before they released the planes of power and cat race expansions.

>>376082375
>Why not join a heavy RP guild or start your own with interviews and such
No one does that shit.

What should I play? WoW or FFXIV since they both seem like the only MMOs that are any half-good anymore.

bubble carbon dioxide through it.

>>376082752
im having a blast with FFXIV
>You can freely play up to lvl 35
My plan is to get everything to lvl 35 then sub.

>>376082752
WoW has you rush to the end as all the good stuff is there.

FF14 has you take your time to the end as nearly all of the good stuff is in the middle.

>>376075646
>>376075646
Make it hard to force grouping, have no "binding" for items and no auction house to force player interaction market economy, have less stat inflation and put less focus on level parity between you and the mobs and your party members, which again encourages social play. Have world PVP with some real benefits/risks. Have dedicated classes for tanking, healing, crafting, etc instead of jack of all trades ones. Less focus on quest chains and more on exploration

Make your level 1 character a filthy peasant who has to work his shit to get better and make it so end game characters look like they can fuck over anything and owe everything. But make it hard to level. Make the grind feel worth it. Make elitism great again.

>>376082662
>Someone didn't look hard enough
Not the games fault you didn't look hard enough Anon. I've been in several RP guilds since EQ.
If you need help finding an RP guild, look on RPPvP servers. There are at least 2-3 per server and definitely a good dozen if there is only one. Sure, there aren't many, you can always start your own.

>>376082662
CSB: For the raiding guild I ran once upon a time we had three questions on it outside of character information:

>Experience in any game that you consider noteworthy

>Favorite moe anime and best girl in that anime

>Favorite president and why

Shockingly, we had a surplus of autistic weebs.

>>376083881
>Autistic weebs
Most guilds I ended up joining broke up after the ERP whispers ended up being the majority of what people logged in to do and started making their ERP clique get valuable positions in leadership. Most regular RPers (myself included) would leave and form the rival guild to fight the degenerates. Made for good times.

MMO's fixed themselves already.

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It cannot be saved. But it could be made better by going back to its Ultima roots as world simulators that just happen to be online.
Sometimes I wonder if you could remove the grind but keep permadeath+world+chat and essentially have an online roguelike.

>>376084936
like 10 mmos in production are going down a sandbox route

Remove level ups, experience points, "stats", etc

>>376085119
Seconds life? Who'd want to play that.

>>376085621
Do not reply to me ever again

>>376085739
Sorry

Why do MMOs nowadays try to make the player character the chosen one or the hero of prophecy? Its kind of hard to believe the fantasy they're setting up when there are thousands of other chosen ones walking around the world.

>>376085980
>nowadays

>>376075646
Genre is fine, community is what needs to be fixed

>>376080630
This, all of this. Every time an MMO went to shit, it was because of a series of changes more often than not including auction house, team finder and casualization.
Mention parties in the tutorial and make people have to go talk to other fags to get a party. The gameplay could be ass, but people will enjoy glorified chatrooms.

>>376075646
An anon raised a pretty good point last time we had a thread like this; make it inconvenient.

Modern MMOs are utter shite because of all the convenience they put into them, which in turn makes them generic. Even if a developer has no intent of copying WoW, they end up doing it because WoW is the king of convenience. Nothing is hard to do, everything is offered to you instantly, you never have to plan or think anything out.

Just looking at one feature; guilds. This is how they should work
>You can only join a guild by actually finding a guild leader or member who has the power to let you join and asking them face to face
>The only way to identify guild members is by clothing, symbols or common items.
>You dont have a guild chat, guild page, or anything else that wouldn't be possible in a suspended belief fantasy world

>>376080630
>Imagine a game where you can't even leave the starting town because the mobs are so aggressive and difficult you can't fight them alone.
I would fucking cream myself for an MMO like this. To some extent, Vanilla WoW did this which is why people could still enjoy it today when Nost was around.

>>376082752
You should play ESO instead.

>>376086562
Not to mention this has a way of weeding out terrible players and having the good ones rise to the top. "I won't play with XxSepirot, he's a shitty tank who can't even hold aggro against the healer"

>>376086862
Shit that's another point that was mentioned in another thread: let the best be the best. Let bullshit OP bosses exist. Let me know I'll never beat that faggot if I'm not good enough, instead of just making the fight a gearcheck.

>>376086562
>auction house
I feel you need this convenience though or at least make it area wide and not the entire world. Trying to buy something specific from a player store was ass

>>376087050
>area wide
eh maybe in the middle of a city or something, so that you can have a trading hub where people advertise manually

>>376082876

What if I am at the end of both?

>>376087171
Everquest did this but it wasn't even close to a city it was a just a cave with nothing in it people decided was a nice play to buy and sell things. Seems like a bad idea but inside a city there was a lot of non-trade chat to filter out, which you couldn't automatically, so in the middle of nowhere it was.

>>376087460
>the cave of bumfuck shall be the trading place
That's pretty cool

>>376087050
Not really, just have a good selling system in place.
Need potions? Go to the alchemy guild and meet some folks
Need armor? Go to the armory guild and meet some folks

Need to sell some shit? Go to the merchant guild and meet some folks.

Stop making zones just be a quest hub, let Inn's be a resting and social place, add some boardgames and card games in it.

>>376075646
replacing all humans with AI. For MMO to work, we need to be automatons, to not break the game and not become corrupt.

MMO don't work.

>>376087050
People had no problem setting up their own bazaar to sell goods. Trade guilds would form to help sell the items of value to others, you just had to arrange it if you wanted a specific drop. East commonlands tunnel is a good example of this.

>>376076746
you wrote a lot but ultimately said nothing.
in other words, this was fucking autistic

>>376087564
isn't Star Citizen doing this
minus the "we" part, just 90% of the universe has agents doing all the jobs humans can also do

>>376075646
You let it die, and wait until all wow players leave the genre forever.

>>376075646
Ultima Online.
But with updated graphics and engine.

>>376080630
>Imagine a game where you can't even leave the starting town because the mobs are so aggressive and difficult you can't fight them alone.
This is ALL I fucking want from an MMO. And none of this PvP bullshit, a group of people focused on moving trade goods from A to B cant compete with a group of player raiders.

I just want an MMO where its a huge deal moving your goods from A to B, where you have to prepare a large caravan, hiring other players in the town to assist you in transporting and protecting the goods. It should take 10 to 20 minutes just preparing going between halls and taverns asking for mercenaries, and then 40 to 60 minutes just transporting the goods but it should be a huge deal and difficult as fuck. Most journeys should end in failure, with most of the goods getting lost/destroyed/stolen.

Make it so players can choose to do a "single player" version.

>No forced multiplayer sections like in FFXIV
>Less grinding, but you forfeit PVP with that character etc

>>376088013
>Completely misses the point of an MMO
Why would you want that?

>>376087050
No. Just fucking no. Its exactly that type of thought that ruins MMOs.

If there is going to be an auction house, it should be an ACTUAL auction house. As every day a list of goods to be sold is produced and you can look through it, and then have to actually bid in a room with other players for those goods.

The more UI you have in an MMO the more shit the MMO is.

>>376087880
Honestly, UO was the only MMO that I felt like was near perfect. Seems like many want to copy it but can never get even close to it. It sucks that I missed its peak.

>>376087880
Shards online is literally that. Although now its called Legends of Aria.

>>376088078
Well, for example, I'd prefer to play a game like FFXIV by myself with no forced multiplayer. I don't like being forced to do dungeons with other players and would prefer an option where you get to play the game as if you're the only player character.

I stopped playing it when it forced me to do these dungeons with other players and they'd always drop out, kick me, fail etc.

>>376088078
It's a wow player, just ignore him and he'll go away.

>>376077889
>The combat is usually the backbone of most games

Why are MMOs with fun combat so bad then?

>>376088078
Y'know Eve lets you do everything alone.

>>376088262
I don't like WOW.

>>376088259
Sounds like you just don't want to fail. Failure should always be an option. Else it's a walking sim.

>I want a game like old WoW

Wildstar comes out

>It's too hard to get people organized for 30 person raids and leveling takes too long

>I want a game like old RO

Tree of Savior comes out
>This is too grindy with bad drop rates and there's nothing to do except kill monsters

People saying they want old school MMOs are lying through their teeth, they are just fantasizing about being a super powerful player in a "hardcore" MMO to give their accomplishment legitimacy without actually wanting to do the work.

>>376089617
>>I want a game like old WoW
>Wildstar comes out
Wildstar was absolutely fucking NOTHING like old WoW you shitposting shill

>>376086790
>making it difficult for people to party up in guilds when guilds are made to have solid members to party with at any given time
>thinking this is a good idea

>>376089617
The raids look like fun in wildstar but I can't play the game because of toaster

>>376085114
name 10

>>376089889
Shroud of the Avatar
Shards Online
Albion Online
Moonlight Blade
The Repopulation
Identity
Gloria Victis
Crowfall
Star Citizen
Chronicles of Elyria

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ok so whats the best kind of combat for an mmo? Has to be good for pve and pvp without making the other too easy.

>>376089617
>Wildstar takes to long to level
I guess if you personally killed each enemy. But that would be retarded. Considering you could literally just ask a tank to se their 8-12 seconds of invulnerability to literally pull a fucking zone and get instant levels with AoE farming. It was too easy for any organized group. Also, nothing like WoW except for maybe the bulky shoulder-pads.

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>>376089974
>Chronicles of Elyria

I want to believe, dude. I want it to be everything it promises and not just Kikestarter bullshit.

>>376089867
>Not forming your own guild with the other guildless people standing around you who play at the same time as you clearly, since they are also logged in.
Maybe being social just isn't your thing.

>>376089867
>made to have solid members to party with at any given time
No, thats the bullshit belief you have from being brainwashed by WoW

The purpose of a guild is recognizable allies, nothing more

>>376091090
Except guilds are much more than just recognisable allies.
Guilds are a team, they work together to achieve a goal. There's a reason top guilds have actual recruitment processes, and it's to weed out the shitters in order have a strong guild team.
People in actual guilds and not the mass recruiting chat rooms form lasting friendships.
I think you're the one that's been brainwashed, friend.

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>>376087050
>surely this ONE single quality of life change wont ruin anything
every time
MMO players are insane masochists, and the only way you get them to socialize is to force them to get around issues and obstacles with other people.
>no market aside from personal stalls
Forum based threads, merchant guilds and announcements/word spread by players, allows for haggling, jewish behaviors and trickery
>no LFG/LFP/LFF/LFR
Forces people in the community to become leaders, aka "WHO HERE WANTS TO SMACKAROO BIG BONER SHITE_FILD04"
>no quicktravel,forced to use boats and platforms that only spawn arrive every X
Players are given a fucking BREATHER, which eases and relieves pain/annoyance from grind or failures.
Players are also forced to socialize ingame instead of alt tabbing to facebook or whatever the fuck in order to not miss the every X arrival/dispatch.
>no quests
Developers have to write less STUPID SHIT, players find their own paths and share their adventuring knowledge.

>>376091540
>People in actual guilds and not the mass recruiting chat rooms form lasting friendships.
That is literally all guilds are as long as all the dumb retarded shit you want like guild chats, menus and convenience exists.

You're literally too stupid to be reasoned with, no more replies for you.

>>376091540
>Except guilds are much more than just recognisable allies.
>Guilds are a team, they work together to achieve a goal. There's a reason top guilds have actual recruitment processes, and it's to weed out the shitters in order have a strong guild team.
Literally nothing you said is relevant to the UI features that ruin MMOs by making guilds convenient.

>>376089867
Go back to WoW kiddo

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>>376091891
>refute your point
>he responds with the equivalent of LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU
whatever homo

>>376090235
Its the sort of ironic social autism that these people dont understand. Actually having to talk to someone about the guild, about how things work, about who is a part of it and organizing when you can and cant work with them is socializing. And the best part of MMOs is when its dynamic, when you are doing your own thing in the world and run across a guild member and then join up to do something, instead of playing UI Menus; The MMO and treating the whole experience like a lobby browser.

Hitting 'teleport to guild member' then 'join party' and playing with them isnt. But they convince themselves it is because they cant live with the fact they have zero social skills.

>>376092283
Case and point >>376092124
>thinks skimming through 10 guilds in a year to find the best minmaxers is 'social'
>when he gets his bullshit called out spergs out and posts /a/tard images

This is the type of idiot who holds back MMOs.

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>>376092537
Keep going.
I've said my bit, and you still act like this.
You are the one holding back mmos, friendo.
Too closed-minded

>>376075646
Get rid of subscription fees.

>>376093018
Then it'll need to go f2p to get any money and you have the mobile market

>>376089617
The combat was awful though

>>376093018
Get fucked poorfag. It helps gate underage and minorities

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All you have to do is give it good gameplay. Tab targeting and 20 hot keys is not fun at fucking all

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>>376089617
>Tree of Savior
>like old RO
The worst part is that somewhere out there, some retard actually believe this.

Revive old school ffxi and put it on a mobile platform for maximum saturation.

>>376092909
>Being social and having fun hold back MMOs
Your autism is showing Anon. Can you put it back in the box?
It sounds like you've never gone through the trouble to make a guild, so you are literally just talking out of your ass. Making a Top 5 guild rarely starts from day one (Unless you're a group from a different MMO and already have your structure)
Guilds merge, dissolve, and change leadership constantly. You can't just sit idle and hope you will be carried through just because you have the same banner, especially if you are a complete antisocial fuckwit.
Try making a guild before you spout your nonsense.

>>376093498
>actually wanting to run a guild
I'm fine with being social, but who the fuck wants to run the logistics that most guilds deal with?

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>Remove leveling
>all skills are availableif you can get the equipment to perform them
>Do >not< balance around pvp
>joystick and input combat, no rotation bullshit
>smaller servers with fewer people but enough to meet plenty of people
>fuck open world. Entire world uses Metroidvania-esque level design with the exception of towns which are interwoven into the world layout
>no cash stores
>full-world pvp enabled, mechanics such as locking doors and hiding from other players implemented
>enemies always drop their gear

>>376076527
Underrated post.

I want people to need me to craft gear for them. That is all I want. I will make you things, and make other things to sell in a comfy shop, and give you a place to sleep after a long day of adventuring, and you will love me for it.

>>376094236
Theres already a place. Its called chilis

>>376094236
>and give you a place to sleep after a long day of adventuring, and you will love me for it.
I want this.

Fucking real economics from playing the game.

Make it so people die when logging out whithout tents.

And the most important thing of all...
NO FUCKING MONEY.

USE THINGS AS CURRENCY.

>>376094450
I said love me not sue me over ecoli.

>>376094607
Chronicles of Elyria is a Kickstarter scam loosely based on the concept, it does have currencies but they're player driven so no standards or set values for goods exist. Your character never leaves the world though. You give it AI tasks to perform while you are gone.

>>376094017
>Logistics
It's barely any different than running a 5 man party if you've ever been a main tank or primary healer. I guess you just play DPS classes which are a dime a dozen. I always play healer/tank so I can do whatever I want, when I want to, cause the "Core" of any guild is just having a consistent tank and healer. DPS classes are fucking everywhere and any gaps in online times can be filled with randoms in seconds by just saying LFM DPS, you'll get a 100+ tells in a minute of people begging to suck your dick for a slot. Even just playing a guildless tank can start pickup groups at endgame content, and healers have almost as easy a time if you just fill up your friendlist with tanks. If you want to play the game without having to worry about finding parties, play a tank or healer, and be good at it. Don't be an entitled DPS and think you can solo the game cause at the end of the day, there are 10000+ players who throw out similar numbers. Yet there are only so many tanks and active healers.

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>>376094787
>permadeath
>aging
Dropped. Permadeath has potential but not when you just get old and die.

>>376095224
you pass your belongings and skills onto an heir. just knock up an NPC chick and you're good.

Can someone please post that image of the everquest guild complaining for more raid content and then the guild master becomes a WoW raid designer

>>376090096
>what's the best kind of combat for [a video game]?
Well there's Street Fighter, God Hand, and Quake, all action games. I think the best kind of combat is action combat.

>>376075646
Make the game about exploration, roleplay, dueling/arenas, weekly story-driven content, etc. and no grinding at all. Your character never gets stronger, you just get better at the game. Make the combat system very unique and interesting so people feel satisfied when they beat their opponents.

idk just do something cool and new, I'm sick of big gold exclamation marks above NPCs heads and grinding for days on end to get to the "end game" where you just grind for loot.

>>376089889
>>376089974
>gets handheld this hard
>doesn't even apologize or say thanks
truly the scum of /v/

>>376090197
If their surprise at the end of the month pleases me I will break the oath I swore when Cube World destroyed my Faith.

Stop making the game an industry. Cut any automated trade markets, stop making skills only provide the ability to mass produce slightly better gear, make players have to turn to other random players for high quality gear rather than running a dungeon a dozen times over with their niche. It doesn't feel massive if you ignore everybody or the system handles everyone else for you.

1. The game starts as son as you make a character, not at max level

2. meaningful content actually happens in the open world, you know the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER part, instead of everything just being instanced dungeons

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>>376075646
STOP MAKING THEME PARKS

STOP COPYING WOW

COPY EVE

MAKE USER CONTENT MMOS

define rules
give users the tools to build a world
they will build it
customers will come
if its fun

>>376075646
I'm fine with theme parks just make them actually fun to play instead of just being a skinner box.

>>376100316
>STOP MAKING THEME PARK
Yeah.
>STOP COPYING WOW
Hell yeah.
>COPY EVE
Nooooooooo.

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>>376100465
eve isn't that bad, but I don't play it
It doesn't need to be full eve, but Eve is literally the ONLY non-theme park MMO on the market.

Every other MMO is "Go to this place and complete these things"

MMOs need to be "Here's the world we created, fuck its shit up and wage war within our flexible rules"

No instances ever.
Variable player count content. Some stuff should be feasible alone, some should be best done in a group and some should absolutely require a lot of manpower.
No linear shit.
Unique classes, not just balanced by numbers tanks healers and dps with only cosmetic differences.
Unique monsters. None of this walking loot bag shit that flood every theme park ever. Different abilities, different strengths and different weakness. Certain classes should be better at taking on some types of monster than others.

>>376101196
There should be a balance.
A mix between theme parking and massive player driven worlds.
Things should start out controlled, but transition into less control as you get to a point where player driven experience starts to take over.

Even better if large swaffs of the environment are randomly generated per server. Switching servers could mean an entirely new experience. New fortress locations, new choke points, new resource locations

>>376075646
Mechanics are spoilered for tl;dr reasons.

Simple:
1. World PvP with the exception of towns.

Cons to attacking anyone outside of towns, you get PvP flagged for 30-60 seconds in which anyone can attack you back including your target. If a target dies while being flagged for PvP, nothing happens besides some faction, clan, alliance, guild related tokens or reputation. If a player kills another play while he's (the target) NOT PvP flagged, the killer gets flagged as a player killer and gets some player killer points equal to the level difference between the player and his target plus 10 (so there will always be a minimum of player points gained even if both players are equal in level]), if a player dies while flagged as a player killer, they drop equipped items and gold equal to a formula of player killer points divided by 10 per item while gold is dropped equal to 1% of current gold from both bank and inventory PER 10 player killer points.
A player that's flagged as a player killer cannot enter towns and any friendly NPC becomes aggressive against that player OR flee and unspawn if that player interacts with that NPC.

>>376102445
2. No factions, any player can decide who to attack on the spot, it doesn't matter that their target is from their own faction, race, friendlist, class, clan, alliance, guild or whatever.

There must be some downsides for killing those from your own faction, clan, guild like losing reputation or even getting kicked automatically from the guild when a threshold has been met, like the number of guild members killed without them being flagged for PvP in the last week/month, kicks you out from their guild automatically, while if the target isn't your guild member BUT IS in the same faction as you (horde/alliance for example), you get PK points AND lose reputation and you cannot enter friendly towns or interact with friendly NPCs for a day regardless of your PK points.
A player doesn't gain PK points for killing a guild member. (because they're getting kicked at some point and they WILL gain those points from that moment forward.

>>376102445
>>376102497
All these limitations, nigga, it's like you've never played a MUD.

>>376082752
>Tab-target combat where you just stand there waiting for the monster to hit your face while waiting for your abilities that's on cooldown
"no"

>>376075646
Destiny like shooter game with an open world and proximity voicechat.

also we find the guy who thinks p2p connection is a good system for online multiplayer and we torture him to death on live television.

>>376082105
>Stats go up whenever you do actions, walking running jumping swinging against a training dummy etc

Nope.

>>376102497
3. Quests exist only for certain important things to do in-game, are hard and/or take a lot of time and maybe even a group although solo'able.

An actual quest can be something like promoting a class, from fighter to soldier, from apprentice to scholar. These quests do NOT appear on the map for any reason, they find the NPC or the spot that starts the quest by reading the notes in his/her own journal which I explain in my next point.

4. Player driven leveling spots and HIDDEN quests. This encourages exploration instead of grabbing a wiki, getting a set of quests from a zone and mindlessly going to complete them.

By hidden quests I mean that a player gets a reward in xp when certain hidden conditions are met (killing 10 mobs of a kind in a zone, picking up a certain droppable item that has a low chance to drop) and a small note in their journal gets placed telling the player bit by bit of story or lore of the monster they just killed, of the item they just got and so on. Dungeons can be found this way.

>>376102830
Those "Hidden" quests are still just gonna get written down on a Wiki. It's near impossible to make shit not just written on a wiki unless it's randomly generated, and if it is people will still datamine or catalog all the randomly generated ones, not to mention randomly generated quests are usually shit.

>>376102685
>Destiny like shooter game with an open world and proximity voicechat.

If you want a first person shooter in an open world with proximity voice chat, then you can go play Rust. It's obviously not an RPG but it seems to fit your standard. I've always kind of seen it like a massively multiplayer game, but with 100-200 people per server.

Stop making WOW clones.

Focus on open systems rather then linear ones.

If you've instanced/phased your world to fuck and back you've already failed.

>>376075646
Just make FFXI-2. It was literally perfection of the MMORPG genre. Developers just have to stop cranking out contentless WoW-clone shit and focus less on graphics, achieves, PVP and instant gratification.

>>376103262
Yeah, thats just like how you can read a wiki to spoil all of morrowind's quests.

That doesn't make the waypoint system and linear as fuck dungeon design of Oblivion and Skyrim any less shit when it comes to game design.

Exploration should always be a cornerstone of an open world game, especially MMOs where you'll be exploring the world in a group.

Even more so, if your world is group based exploration, then the info you find on wiki's will be more disjointed.

Also, you as a player should be compelled to do what you feel like you want to do, and not what the game tells you you want to do, thats why I enjoyed vanilla WOW more, leveling professions, farming mats, making gold was way more fun then grinding quests, then cataclysm came along and fucked that all up.

>>376103262
You do have a point, it IS impossible to make quests and data basically not written in a wiki by players since we're humans and that's what we do best, passing down information for future people to grab onto.
In my defense, I fucked up that line "This encourages exploration instead of grabbing a wiki", it was meant that hidden quests are a way to encourage exploration INSTEAD of a quest like WoW has where it automatically guides you to a new zone. If a player wishes to grab a wiki instead of immersing himself into the lore and reading the notes he's given then nobody can stop that it's in his own downside for not getting to know the lore.

I've read most of the quests in WoW, because I am that kind of autist and the quests themselves are garbage.
And yes, randomly generated quests are garbage as well.

In my point I was going against the treadmill type of questing I despise.

Obtain korean-tier infrastructure so we can actually have decent combt mechanisms and not lol gotta compensate for 200 ping

>>376103852
Korean MMOs are shit though, even the 'action' based ones that just disguise tab targeting with cone AOE targeting.

>>376103910
That's because koreans have no souls

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Remove leveling.

Replace with gear based keystone effect stacking.

Limited slots, easy to obtain gear, exotic gear for exotic builds.

Example?

You're playing a warrior, most of your skills are martial and armor based.

You get a trinket that make your martial skills also fire skills

You also get a shield that makes it so every time you do fire damage you gain armor

And every time you gain armor your class base armor passives activate.

So by exploring the world, finding and crafting items, learning new skills, switching your play style by deck based class loadouts and gear based enhancements you can turn your base class, like warrior, mage, cleric, ect, into something more exotic, like a molten flaming swordsman or cleric who shits thor's lightning.

>>376094963
DPS being a pure role in your MMO is a problem with your MMO.

Good MMOs diversify the roles.

Even early WOW knew this, until Watcher came along and fucked everything up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud9h8UpcC4E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioQWkWj5_ss

These are a good watch, if you want to make a good MMO, take the core ideas of these guys, and use modern tech.

>>376080151
I wanna take the bait so bad

>>376104627
Do it

>>376075646
Biggest problem with mmo these days is the grind and dungeons being the only good big thing.

Nothing puts me off than getting told reach lvl x to experience the game.

Why not just let me jump in and play straight away?

MMO should be about the experience, not about hitting a certain level to have fun.

With that said remove classes, let everyone have access to what they want to be. So they can train melee stats/ranged/magic stats as they fit, like dark souls/runescape.

Add in dark souls pvp, make it so that you can fight anyone even as a lvl 1 noob however damage gets modified by combat stats and weapon/armor, so even if you're running around with no gear and only a bronze sword you can still outplay a person thats fully geared however it requires you to be extremely skilled and agile.

There is no mainquest, you're not a special person. You can play the game exactly how you want it, dont want to pvp? before a farmer/trader or a pve person.

MMO should all be about the experience and freedom to choose, not to have certain parts of the game locked from you and the pace to reach there stays the same. If the first 20mins of the game is how the game will be for the next 30hours then you failed.

Bring back pulling and CC
Make it less tedious and not take 4 hours to do a dungeon

>>376104558
My point was more to illustrate the problem. I'd say early wow missed some of the point by making DPS more flat, just dps. Didn't matter if it was mage, warlock, rogue, or ranger. All put out just numbers. Sure they have diversity within the Tank classes, where paladin could be more heals and priest/druid could do damage. But end of the day, the diversity didn't hit the DPS classes, just the two least common archtypes. I think there needs to be a move towards more role diversity like original EQ. You had Tank, Puller, Healer, CC, DPS and multiple classes could fit within a few of those varied roles. Games lost this when they realized they fucked up and 80% of the player base just went DPS, so of course content had to be balanced to compensate the lack of role diversity. I was using current MMO's to illustrate the difficulty in party/guild forming, tanks and healers control immense power in forming groups and completing content just by picking that class.

>>376080630
THIS
I want goddamn this and I want a full fucking open world pvp, where mother fuckers drop their shit when they die.

>>376103721
But in any multiplayer game, it's going to be competitive. Don't I want to be the first person to reach a high level on the server or the first guild to fuck up bosses, why would I "roleplay" that I am inept and give myself a disadvantage compared to normal fucking people who look up a guide? I agree with you, it's more fun to discover shit yourself, but that works in Morrowind, a singleplayer game, not in a multiplayer game

I don't even care about MMOs, just make a spiritual successor to guild wars

>>376104808
>Add in dark souls pvp

Oh boy, I can't wait for a test of "skill" that is stacked incredibly in the favor of someone who leveled up their stats in a specific way and the net code is even fucking worse. ROLLROLLROLL TELEPORT BACKSTAB SKILLLL

>>376104886
Except that is blatantly wrong.

Various flavors of CC, off tanking, off heals, pulling, kiting, ect, were all part of a DPS players kits.

Im not talking raids, raids in WOW, and any MMO really, will always be hitting a massive fatty while dodging their instant death groundfires and debuffs, but CC was a vital part of classes kits in vanilla and BC, mages had sheep, frost nova, blizzard, hybrids could help off tank if there were too many in a pac, or off heal if the MT was taking too much damage for the main healer to keep up, even rogues could stunlock an add, effectively playing an efficient OT while also applying decent DPS.

>>376105062
You are correct, any MMO will generate a competitive playerbase, but most of MMO playerbases are casual as fuck, if you design your entire play experience around hardcore players then you'll get what modern WOW is today, a giant world firster circlejerk where all core mechanics revolves around raids and the open world is one massive repetitive minigame grind where no mob will ever be a threat to you ever.

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MMOs are by nature unfixable.

>if you don't add pvp, people will complain
>if you add pvp, people will complain its poorly balanced, shitty, (and not rewarding if you don't add rewards to pvp)
>if you balance pvp, people will complain there isn't enough class diversity (while still complaining about balance, see league of legends)
>if you force the players to team up, Kiritos (a very large part of the userbase) will complain
>if you don't, people will complain that soloing is more efficient
>if you force the players to level up at monsters only, they will complain
>if you force the players to level up at quests, they'll say it's too linear
>if you put in mini-games to level up, they'll get abused / floaded with bots
>if you let the players be creative people will find a way to cheat and abuse the system

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>>376105742
There is one thing to fix.

The chink grinds.

Funny how WOW came along years ago and got rid of chink grinds, yet this chucklefuck made the game into a chink grind again.

Repetitive grinds and unchanging, undynamic, uneconomic open worlds are a cancer that needs to be eliminated from the genre to revitalize it.

Its like roguelikes, you get a bunch of stupid shit like splunky and binding of issac making people think 'omg i love roguelikes' and then you get a billion of arcade games with permadeath with the genre name 'roguelike' when they have nothing in comparison to the open, depth of that genre.

>>376105214
Most of that flavor has been removed or could be played without if the main tank and primary healer knew what they were doing. You don't need a OT if you don't overpull, you don't need a puller if everything is grouped nicely by the devs into little parties that have huge patrol radius. The instanced, theme park, style has done away with most of the need for these. This needs to be done away with. We need this flavor, that is what I argue more of, and I mean beyond just 2 abilities of splash. There was a time when Enchanter, Mage, and Wizard all behaved functionally different and weren't just specs of one class. The WoW handing of OT, off heals, and CC for DPS were poorly implemented in my opinion. I was not talking raids, that is the essence of theme park bullshit and should be removed. I'd prefer a more EQ ruins of kunark style class diversity and world setup. There, multiple types of characters came together, even if they weren't in your party, you needed their buffs if you wanted to perform optimally, parties would take multiple mob camps near each other to help out in case of an add train spawning. Just fixing the horribly unbalanced lategame and adding other features would be great.

>>376075646
LFR/LFG are bad ideas. Better data mining prevention. Better random world events that drop loot that raiding guilds are looking for; bosses that spawn on random timers and at preferably at inconsistent locations.

MMO PvP is trash 99% of the time. Don't waste development resources there.

Execute all solo playing casuals via deathsquad homevisits. the grind was an investment that got you invested in the community even if you bitched about it. it also policed your behavior because you didn't want to get banned after leveling up over a long period of time, and you didn't want to be blacklisted from groups (where the good loot was).
No investment = shitty community

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>>376105972
MMO PVP is fine if its open and engaging.

If you design a ladder based system and point based grind about it, you're doing it wrong.

MMO PVP is simple, you make small portions of the world open for players to conquer and influence, and slap their name on it, you don't need to balance it either, people will create their own metagame, and anyone who complains should just 'git gud'

The main course of the game should always be group based PVP though, specifically, dungeon crawling.

>tfw WoW pvp will never be as fun as vanilla WoW pvp again
Vanilla WoW pvp is fun because abilities hit hard and and you're doing your best to fuck with the other player as much as possible.
You're not just running pve rotations on other people for maximum DPS, but you're kiting, bandaging, using engineering items and other consumables just to try an get an edge in.

Ofcourse class balance was fucked but at least classes were unique and fun to play.

I just hate this modern WoW shit where every pvp fight is completely predictable.

>>376106231
The hole was such a waste of a beautiful looking mysterious dungeon. Yeah Yael and some caster items were there but the RvR was absolutely out of whack. Sebilis caught you offguard by having the zone out deeper in the dungeon but the Hole basically trapped you once you dropped down into the 2nd area. I want to watch a WoW group do a corpse run in the Hole.

>>376077385
>it favours cliques and elitism
So just like real life?

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>>376077385
Then don't play MMOs.

The best MMOs are fueled by cliques and elitism.

>>376106231
>The main course of the game should always be group based PVP though, specifically, dungeon crawling.
How the fuck is dungeon crawling pvp?

>>376075646
Half their length.

>>376075646

https://youtu.be/mMvubbX-SHg

>>376075646
Stop making mmos

>still no MMO where I can be a lone wanderer

>>376110806
wow another open world sandbox pvp mmo because there's not a ton of them already on the market and all of em going to shit because at the end they're not very fun