How do we revive the MMO genre?

Let it stay dead for a bit and the phoenix will rise again.

>>372989583
someone needs to finally make an mmo that's a real video game

Maybe in 100 years

>>372989583
Reimagine it. Go back to roots. Don't copy the prevailing orthodoxy.

Basically what ninty did with BoTW

>>372989583
Final Fantasy XI-2

>>372989583
Why did you use THIS as your OP?

>>372989883
literally just make BotW that happens to have other people walking around in the world and tweak and adjust as necessary and it'd be great

>>372989583
Something will come. Maybe not in your or my life time, but it'll come.

Make a real video game that doesn't have awful combat.

Seriously, most MMOs are still using 1-2-3-4-5 combat from the 90s.

>>372989583
First we would need MMOs that try to create a world, rather than just single player games with other people around doing the same single player missions.

The 25 or 10-man "raids" are not what MMOs need. What MMOs need is to actually "feel" like a world that could work.

MMOs right now look like this: you go to a farm and see a farmer sitting there next to his house. He has a yellow "!" above his head and when you talk to him he tells you that he needs help with getting rid of bugs. So he gives you some can of spray and you run around clearing his farm of bug monsters. You go back to him, he gives you some experience and an amount of gold farmers shouldn't have. Then he asks you to help around on the farm where he gives you some kind of a water can and you go water some plants. You go back to him and he again gives you some astronomical sum of gold for it.

This is not what a farmer should do. What it should look like:

You come to a farm and you see a farmer trying to deal with a pest. You offer them help. You get rid of the bugs and the farmer offers you compensation of some form. Some item or some patch of land or offers you some mediocre food. Then the farmer goes back to his farming. You can follow the guy and you'll see them working on the farm during the day and eventually going to sleep. You know, what you would expect a farmer to do.

Once somebody finishes his pest quest others can't do it.

"Oh, but this requires too much work on content!" Yeah, it does. Use procedural generation to make these trivial quests. They're not that interesting anyway.

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>>372989583
Make this (minus a bit of the more intense weeb-stuff)

>>372989583
My problem with this game is that its large scale fights are way too intensive on my CPU even with the lowest settings possible but I can turn everything near max and run fine when a bunch of players aren't attacking in one spot.

But yeah I'm not entirely sure, these anons are smart though.

>revive
The MMO genre has never been alive.
>inb4 but WoW h-had 10m at one point
Of which a vast majority was chinks. The rest was botters, f2p/trial account and then some of them was legit western players.
The MMO genre has never been more "alive" than it is today.

Why do you think every single MMO died within a month when the MMO genre was at its top?

>>372990239
>Why do you think every single MMO died within a month when the MMO genre was at its top?

Runescape is still alive and it's been that way since 2001. Lineage 2 is still alive as well since 2003.

How did they die within a month? You're delusional if you honestly believe what you wrote there.

Just play WoW so you don't need to ask questions like that.

>>372989583
what game is this? just curious

>>372990174
So what you saying is that we need to revive Ragnarok Online? Sadly, the last attempt wasn't that successful.

>>372990637
blade and soul

its shit just your generic p2w asian grind mmo

>>372990239
that isn't true at all though. At the height we had
>Everquest 2
>WoW
>FFXI
>City of Heroes ;_;7
>Lineage 2
>Runescape
>Guild Wars
>Dark Age of Camelot
>EVE
>Star Wars Galaxies
all active and healthy for far more than a month

although the release of WoW and EQ2 was pretty much the saturation point, only MMO that really took off after that was Guild Wars

>>372989583
The problem was already solved in guild wars 1. Only 20 levels and 99% of the content created was for max levels. Getting to level 20 was quick. Gear caps quickly and cheaply. There are suffixes and prefixes on gear but it's easy to get the ones you want.

Tons of different pve things to do like master missions and skill capping.

Literally the most skilled based mmo pvp in a game ever in high level gvg.

8 skill bar with 100s of skills too choose from. Duel classes to give more options and attributes that matter extremely heavily.

Aggro system exist but only the most skilled can truly use it in most places. Bodyblocking is an actual strat for tanking.

Tons of unique skill interactions.

Necros actually feel like they should. The best minion master in any mmo and in my opinion best in any game period.

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>>372990845
>Literally the most skilled based mmo pvp in a game ever in high level gvg.

>>372990914
Is her mouth on top of her finger?

>>372990914
Have you ever watched high level gvg. Literally have people who interrupt 3/4 second heals with an interrupt that has flight time consistantly.

Name one other mmo with that level of precision is needed to succeed in pvp.

Well. I don't think it will ever be like it was.

MMOs were something special back in the day because interacting with other people on the internet wasn't as easy as it is today with all the social media and the normies that abound nowadays. Just like tabletop RPGs it is now a niche genre of games for a certain type of audience.

I've always wanted a great, massive open world adventure in an MMO and I think world-building is an important part of an MMORPG.
The world should have importance (not empty and barren, not irrelevant) and the environment being super interactive like the recent BotW for example. It should also be a challenge to traverse while also being solo-able (except in places like dungeons maybe).
FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 had a good way in dealing with creative monster AI, which gave monsters character.

Also questing really needs some depth and deeper narrative that's like a mini-storyline, not generic fetch/hunt quests.

>>372989583
You don't. Not ever again. May this genre just die.

They should just remake old mmo with better graphics.

>>372991670
Black desert is probably the closest you can come to that, but the game is more PvP focused so there's no dungeons or anything like that.

It's definitely the MMO with the most Alive world I've ever played.

>>372989583
When devs stop putting shitty filler 'fetch' quests in their games.

The cash shop model is killing the game.

Make the game quality enough to where there's incentive to pay money to play it and people will come. Skins aren't enough. Locking content behind paywalls isn't enough. Making intense gear grinds that can be bypassed with paying money will just make your playerbase hate you.

Make a good fucking game. Until then, your company deserves to fail.

t. BnS player

>>372990789
> Star Wars Galaxies
;_;

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Who here is hyped for Pantheon?

>>372991993
at least you have private servers

>>372991854
too bad about the rest of the game

>>372991997
After Archeage, Blade and Soul, Tree of Savior and Black Desert, I have completely lost the ability to get hyped for an MMO.

>>372990789

There's totally a list double of these length of MMOs that didn't make it more than a few years. A month is clearly a hyperbole, but many did fail.

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>>372989583

>No levels
>Can choose health/stamina/magic balance at the start of the game and through the use of rare materials or quest lines
>Items only have 4 tiers with meager improvements at each higher level
>Abilities are earned through quests, rare skill books, trainers, and self-researching
>Professions are complete from the beginning; success for various tasks rely on player skill and knowledge (i.e. you don't magically learn to skin dragons after skinning a thousand pigs; rather a level 1 skinner can skin a dragon perfectly but botch skinning a rabbit due to lack of player skill.)
>PvP is constantly on, meaning while out hunting or questing any other player can kill you if you feel like it
>On death a player will drop 50% of their gold and all crafting materials on their person have a 10% chance to drop (Banking is recommended)
>Dark souls like 'covenants' exist with the "Player-killer-killers" getting the most benefits through bounties
>ALL COMBAT IS SKILL BASED (Want to cut this dude up? Guide your sword yourself. Want to smack this fucker with some magic? Hope you're ready to chant and channel that shit IN REAL TIME. You want to shoot your bow and move at the same time? Hopefully you're a good shot. Want to attack from on horseback? Do you know how to ride, nerd?)
>Dungeons/Bosses that require planning and strategy beyond the tank/healer/3dps set up (We're talking d&d seducing dragon gods with lutes type shit)

And the two most important points:
>No br
>Loli race

>>372992084
Pantheon is Western. You just listed asian MMOs. See what they all have in common?

>>372991854
Yeah. Black Desert's world is quite beautiful and pretty good in general, but it does lack a lot of things like dungeons. It's also easy to traverse because the monsters are such pushovers. It's like a Warriors game.

>>372992084
well there's a big difference in between hyping yourself up for a Korean MMO.
I mean it's Brad McQuaid that's working on it, so you will know what to expect.

>>372989583
Look up chronicles of elyria and pray that they are gonna make it... which so far they convinced me. So read about it and everyone read about it

>>372991670
>The world should have importance (not empty and barren, not irrelevant) and the environment being super interactive like the recent BotW for example
I don't think you understand how close that is to being impossible. "Just take these complex systems and put them in an MMO and it'll be great!"
At this moment in time, having BOTW-level physics in an open world shared by an entire server of hundreds if not thousands of people is totally impossible.

>>372992164
>>372992246
Champions, Conan and Wildstar were all disappointments too.

>>372992128
The right direction. MMOs are stuck in this stupid "well you gotta grind cause its an MMO right?" mentality.

And of course it has to have cash shops! And fetch quests - how else will our players level up? And we wouldn't want them to travel anywhere, that's slow and boring and gets in the way of grinding.

Needs to be rethought from the beginning. Scrap everything except the fact that the game is Massively Multiplayer (and online) and then go from there.

>>372992110
true, but to say that every MMO ever was never successful is just silly

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>>372992128
>no br
we've solved most of are problems right there, then we just IP range ban Asia to their own server
also, MFW discontinued snowsuit worth millions of gold but soulbound. TERA had best mmo combat, worst gameplay

I wish the recent Monster Hunter MMO gets released in the west. MH seemed like it has a good concept fitting as an MMO.

>>372990012
This honestly.

Add some character customization, a party system, maybe some real dungeons, badda bing.

>>372992164
>SWTOR
>Wildstar
>Pantheon
see what they have in common?

>>372992110
and that don't mean MMO are dead (or were dead in first place).
That only mean only a bunch of companies did it well and the rest tried to take a piece of the cake and failed.

>>372989583
We need Ultima Online with more modern game mechanics.

A dynamic and truly player created world where morality is yours to decide and you are free to do whatever you wish, as long as you can withstand the ire of other players.

>>372992293
Yeah. it's fine if it's not. I just want a world that feels alive, really. The environment being interactable is good, but not exactly necessary for an MMO.

>>372992603
You can't really have that in this day and age where you are getting reported for saying "gg ez"

>>372992128
>PvP is constantly on

Congrats you killed it in the womb

MMO should stop revolving around small scale PvP. we already have MOBA's for that.

Focus on large scale fights since it's an MMO after all.

>>372989583
Make something new and original

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>tfw love gw2
>tfw very few people on /v/ seem to like it despite the fact it
>has some of the best combat
>no power creep
>no subscription fee
>lesbians as far as the eye can see,
> more content than you would ever think in a game with no sub fee
>massive wvw battles that truly feel epic

Explain yourselves.

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>>372992463
I really miss tera but to get endgame endgame it was a nightmare to grind enchantment items and try to get to +12 HM while doing dailys and pvp dailys to get true endgame gear which you then needed a million more mats to get forge with the last set to get true endgame, it took months if you were good. There was also a whole political thing going on at endgame where teams voted and campaigned and shit.
then they changed level cap and probably the whole thing IDK no time to go back

>>372992871
No loli characters. I tried playing as the little goblin fairy shits but it wasn't the same.

>>372992871
The combat is garbage.

Also guild wars 2 is a sequel in name only. It's an abomination.

>>372992871
Man this image is outdated. The ranger one has to be changed to something outright stupid due to how powerful they are right now

>>372992940
Stick to Tera you human filth.

>>372993021
Wow, rude. Also Tera sucks.

>>372989583
Remove the NPCs and survival mechanics then give the players a means to troll and torture each other.

>>372992871
>has some of the best combat
not really, BnS and BDO have better combat
>no power creep
this is a flat out lie
>no subscription fee
yeah alright
>lesbians as far as the eye can see
only because the only two lesbians are all up in your business about it all the time so you can't see very far
>more content than you would ever think in a game with no sub fee
and it's all frightfully dull
>massive wvw battles that truly feel epic
zerg merry-go-round isn't epic

>>372992871
Game was way too unbalanced to be fun in PvP.

Also this is what people forget about older MMO's like Guildwars and linage, the balance were horrendous and unless you played one of the cookie cutter builds/classes you were fucked.

>>372993005
>The combat is garbage.
What? The combat is the best out of any mmo ever. This has to be a troll post. Name one mmo that has better combat
>inb4 tera
Tera isnt bad but its still not as good as gw2, especially since a lot of classes cant attack and move at the same time and it really just kills combat.

>>372990157
In other words
Star Citizen.

MMO makers need to stop caring about how fast someone can hit max level. WoW and every other MMO just has a ton of padding with quests because they want you to grind enemies as part of the overall EXP you get from a quest. Because putting in any actually interesting quest like solving a mystery, assassinating someone by sneaking into their home, etc can all be routed for the fastest EXP gain after you go through it once. But "Kill 10 boars" will always require you to grind, so every game has that to keep people playing longer.

Basically no one who makes MMOs is designing the game to be fun, they're just designing it to keep people playing as long as possible.

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>>372989583
Just let it die. It's all garbage.

>>372993119
Guild Wars did balance right by dividing skills into PvE and PvP versions

also there was still hella build diversity even within the cookie cutters

>>372993115
>BnS and BDO have better combat
Objectively false
>this is a flat out lie
What power creep has there been. Hmm? Have you even played the game? People are still in exotics and ascended gear like they have been for the last 4 years. Only JUST NOW are we getting legendary armor and even the the stat differences between ascended and legandary is like a 5% bump. There is literally 0 power creep in gw2.

>the only two lesbians
>i havent played the game: the post

>zerg merry-go-round isn't epic
>i havent played the game: the post

>>372993148
i did enjoy the combat, but only from a pvp, non zergy standpoint. the little fight clubs and the arena pvp were super fun.

>>372993148
>Name one mmo that has better combat
If I'm being honest I think a harder question would be naming a game with worse combat. ESO maybe.
WoW, BDO, BnS, FFXIV, and even garbage like Wildstar and Tera have combat that's leagues better than GW2.

>>372989583
>Quest system from The Secret World
>Combat and world design from Black Desert
>Character creation, development, and setting from City of Heroes
>dungeon design from OG Guild Wars
>boss design from FFXIV
bingo bango, the perfect MMO

>>372993148
Guild wars 1. More build diversity and higher skill cap.

>>372993320
>What power creep has there been
elite specs. Although that was less a power creep and more a power kicks-down-your-door-and-rapes-you

>>372992897
TERA was the most fun I've had in an MMO since Maplestory. Things went to shit quickly after the level cap and new instances. Kumasylum was also pretty fun, despite how salty it'll make you.

>>372993119
>guild wars 1 pvp
>unbalanced
Watch some world tournaments. Every class has representation. Just because shit tier players forced a meta of warrior ele, monk in low tiers doesn't mean high tier players cared.

>>372993397
>WoW, BDO, BnS, FFXIV, and even garbage like Wildstar and Tera
100% objectively false. Thx for proving you never played past the tutorial.

>>372993492
>elite specs
Thats not power creep you retard none of your gear was replaced. Power creep specifically refers to gear and stats from gear.

>>372992871
>>372993320
>>372993617
go to bed Colin

Only way it's going to work is if you make it run on cellphones or laptops, but mostly cellphones. The desktop market is dwindling and will likely never recover.

>>372993617
>gear and stats only
Might wanna tell every card game ever this news.

>>372993658
>Colin
Wrong my name is maddie. Nice try tho ;)

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>>372989583
release official legacy servers for wow

>>372993617
>100% objectively false
Good argument

>>372993720
>comparing power creep in trading card games to mmos
Now this is some desperate damage control. Obviously we are only talking about mmos.

>>372992246
>Brad McQuaid

I remember what happened to everquest and V:SoH

There is no reason to be hype.

>>372990157
Chronicles of Elyria

>>372992795
The 72-man Frontlines in XIV, while an insane clusterfuck, is very very fun.

>>372993789
>Good argument
Someone so retarded to think that tabbed targeting stand in 1 spot and auto attack wow combat is better than GW2 doesnt deserve an argument or an explanation. You are an unintelligent neanderthal and im surprised you even know how to use the internet desu.

>>372992463
>>372992897
Your elin is hideous also
>Snowsuit
>Worth millions of gold
are you high.

I just want Lineage 2 with modern graphics.

Is it too much to ask NCsoft? L2Classic is making you tons of cash, come on give us something!

>>372989583
ffxv the new empire will revive it

>>372993956
>is <good thing> too much to ask NCSoft?
think about what you're asking and to whom.

>>372992871
People wanted Guild Wars and got some updated WoW clone.
Of course we're pissed.

The best part of MMOs was making friends and the feeling of a real community. WoW sauntered in after all the Everquest clones and proclaimed "Hey, you dont need to sit around waiting for a party. Just do things yourself!" which was refreshing for a while, but it destroyed the community element of MMOs. Now all MMOs are WoW clones and you can solo most quests yourself. Basically you're paying $15 a month for a single-player game with the occasional multiplayer dungeon grind. Not worth it.

Also, ain't 2004 anymore and there's more distractions than ever, like mobile games and Netflix.

>>372992253
Would be good if it had normal time scale, was sub based, and people actually died when they were killed. The current system is boring as fuck.

>>372989583
>MMO gamers have spent more time playing their MMO than most "gamers" have in the entirety of their console's lifespan
anon when you spend thousands of hours in one game and can't understand why it's not as fun anymore you're just not realizing what addiction means. you will ALWAYS hate a true addiction eventually

>>372994040
2 is better than the original in almost every way except story. Get over it and stop using muh nostalgia as an argument. The fact that a sequal is different to its predecessor doesnt make it a bad game and if you think it does then you're clearly not very old and should be asleep right now. Its a school night.

>>372994003
I'm just desperate at this point anon.

Archeage was supossed to be the new L2. It turned out shit.
Black Dessert was supossed to be the replacement we finally waited for. It didn't turn out so great either.

There's hundreds of thousands of people stuck playing russian private servers that last for a few months.

>>372993807
If I introduce a mechanic into a game that makes me do the same Dps as everyone else but I'm more mobile that's power creep. Then to combat the new hotness i give the old classes more mobility that is powed creep. Nothing to do with gear or stats. You are literally retarded and don't even know what power creep is.

>>372994132
>t. someone who never played GW1 or understood what made GW so great

>>372994132
the armor and weapon designs were better in GW1

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>>372989583
>ArcheAge was really fucking neat
>mfw chinks killed it
I fucking hate China so much. I hope Trump nukes it into a fucking glowing crater.

>>372994132
>2 is better than the original in almost every way except story.

2 is an entirely different game.
There are no other games like Guild Wars.
There are trillions of bad WoW-clones like Guild Wars 2. It's a well-made WoW-clone but still just a WoW-clone.

>>372994208
>that's power creep
Wrong

Everyone's elite spec made them better at certain things. Are all classes balanced 100%? Of course not. You are confusing class balancing issues with power creep.

>>372994132
How is a lower skill cap game with less build diversity with less pvp options a better game?

Gameplaywise and music wise Gw1 shits on gw 2

>>372993148
>What? The combat is the best out of any mmo ever. This has to be a troll post. Name one mmo that has better combat

Blade & Soul most definitely has the best combat of any MMO so far.

The combat was good enough that PvP tournaments are broadcast in SK.

>>372994250
>t. someone who played gw1, played 2 for a few weeks was pissed off that it wasnt the same and is still butthurt about it
The game is pretty different than it was at launch anon

>>372994252
Prove it

>>372994335
>WoW-clones
>guild wars 2
>wow clone
Thx for proving you havent even played the game

Make Ragnarok again but with more budget.

I think one of the big things that killed off MMOs is the rise of the wikis making it easy to get pretty much any information about secrets and builds without having to communicate with other players. It turns MMOs from a social experience to more solo experience.

>>372994338
>lower skill cap game
>i havent played the game: the post

>>372994358
>Blade & Soul
False

>>372994290
How did they kill it?
>5 friends and I played it
>remember how we carried these backpacks for trading
>one friend got a small boat
>all 6 of us can barely fit on the boat trying to survive the trip over to the enemy continent for some gold

It was amusing but it wasnt good enough as a game so I quit a few weeks later

>>372992871
Theres no roles or anything to combat (or wasn't back when I played on release)
It was just numerous people dpsing near each other, it was extremely plain

>>372994358
>implying SK is worth shit.
A shit country with a corrupt government ripped right out of some anime plot. Not to mention the crazy feminist movement that posts videos of their aborted male fetuses.

>>372994336
>guild wars 1
>expansion packs introduce elite skills that are objectively more powerful and desirable than the core skills available form the start
>skills introduced that are powerful and able to be used by any class forming a number of influential meta builds
>skills that are so effective they forced the devs to introduce a system to exclusively nerf/rebalance skills for PvP
>but it's okay, this isn't power creep because they're just skills instead of swords
Makes sense dude.

>>372994539
Yeah you obviously havent played in a while
also
>reee it doesnt fit into the holy trinity its bad reee what do you mean i have to self heal and watch for shit on the ground reee

>>372994492
You've done nothing but post like 6 times, and in all those posts all you've done is gone "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU". If you aren't open to other peoples' opinion then stop asking for it.

>>372994290
>friend gets me to play ArcheAge beta
>it's pretty fun, mite b cool
>he preorders super deluxe version
>but I know better than to preorder games
>it comes out
>fucking bots camp all land plots so it's impossible to get one
>sure as shit not buying it now
>friend is out $100
he still hasn't learned

>>372994389
You level-up to trillion, your main fun is PvE grinding, you get to pick one class you're stuck with,...
All the stuff about level-scaling mobs, narrative quests, modern combat and such are simply sprinkling hiding good old WoW underneath.

Guild Wars was an entirely different game to begin with.
PvE was there solely for world-building, level cap was 20 and reachable in no time at all, each class had a fuck-ton of spells to pick from instead of getting pre-defined sets based on weapon, PvP was the main part of the game, so much so you could make an instant lvl 20 characters, the dual class system to further emphasize the PvP diversity.

>>372994628
>>guild wars 1
I guess its a good thing we arent talking about guild wars 1 then

>>372994492
Please show me one video of a guild wars 2 player doing anything comporable to a ranger interrupting blessed light with distracting shot.

Blessed light is a 3/4th second cast and distracting shot has flight time based on the bow used.

Age of Wushu 2 will save mmos
Mark my words, screencap it or whatever, first one was glorious, the sequel is going to ruin the lives of anyone that touches it.

>>372994628
>>expansion packs introduce elite skills that are objectively more powerful and desirable than the core skills available form the start
things that never happened

>>372994595
What does this have anything to do with how good or bad Blade & Soul's combat is? It's good and balanced enough that people are fighting over a decent amount of money using the game's combat. All the classes are usually represented.

The PvE also works very similarly to the PvP, so it's not like WoW where PvP and PvE are completely different.

Now the raid stuff kind of ruined the game later on, because PvE was less about what you did and rather your teammates not fucking up. Still, the combat in small groups in B&S is phenomenal. I'm really saddened that they don't utilize it during their levelling process almost at all.

>>372994638
But thats not an opinion its an objectively incorrect fact. I have played blade and soul, tera, i was in a top 2 raiding guild for my server on wow in BC and WOTLK, I have maybe 200 hours in ESO. I can pretty much guarantee my opinion is much more informed with experience than yours is.

>>372994748
SK is shit.
It's people are shit.
It's mmos are shit.

>>372990174
I dropped this halfway is it worth finishing?

>>372994705
Watch literally any high end pvp videos. Having to click an ability when a mob is going to use one is a staple in EVERY mmo. It doesnt make the game special and if you think it does you clearly have only ever played 1 mmo.

>>372994802
>It's mmos are shit.
Does SK really make you so mad that you can't even type correctly?

>>372994779
>Top 2 raiding guild
>on my server
Server and guild please.

I raided on hyjal as a boomkin named jomz. Top 25 in the United states during pretty much all of wolk.

>>372989883
>Don't copy the prevailing orthodoxy.
>Basically what ninty did with BoTW
How did this post not get more (You)s
BotW is literally a generic open world, now with a Zelda paintjob
And before you say that Zelda 1 was an open world like that, yes it was, but the empty open worlds with a fuckton of useless collectibles are the in thing right now
It's THE image of the prevailing orthodoxy and the only reason it's getting high fucking praise is because it's Zelda, i.e. THE orthodox thing to publicly like!

Holy shit kys nintenbro

>>372994858
No. The second season is absolute garbage. Most of it is much worse than SAO was at any point.

>>372994858
I stopped watching close to after they introduced the flamboyant trap characterbecause s(he) was getting cringy as fuck.

The amount of thought I've put into this since tiring of WoW in Wrath is staggering. To get it just right would require a huge amount of time, effort, and risk that companies won't put forth.

I'm starting to think that they won't die, and will continue to be profitable for years to come and a good one might not come out for 20 years or more.

>>372994887
>Server
Daggerfall
Cant remember BC guild but wrath was Ascendancy.

I want a new MMO. Doesn't have to be super good but it has to succeed. I want to be in on launch day. Sadly, all I see is pay to win shit.

>>372994858
Halfway through S1? Yes, finish the season. At the end of S1? No, fuck it, S2 is autism except for maybe 40 minutes total.

>>372994908
but the fuckton of collectibles in BotW are objectively not useless for the first 441

>>372994864
So what you are saying is you do not have a video of anyone doing anything close to that precise in gw2 to show me up.

Odd that I need to search for your proof instead of you providing it.

Yes most mmo's do have interrupt however most interrupts are instant and the fastest casts you have to interrupt are one second.

The scenario I gave you is much harder then an instant cast interrupt on a one second cast.

>>372994779
You don't shit about me or anyone else arguing against you.
I have over 5k hours spent on MMOs, 3k of which probably spent in endgame. That doesn't make my opinion an "objective fact" and your e-peen doesn't make your opinion an objective fact either. If you're going to close yourself off from the the ideas of others then you have no reason to be here outside of jacking off your epic MMO dick.

Also having 200 hours in Skyrim: 8 Hotkeys Edition is not much of a bragging point.

>>372995004
>I want to be in on launch day. Sadly, all I see is pay to win shit.

What do you think about an MMO that would run for say 6 months and then reset? Like ladder in Diablo 2 but for an MMO. The resets would also bring significant changes to the game.

korea killed MMOs
free to play killed MMOs
search inside yourselves
you'll find this to be the truth

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>>372995116
Isn't this basically how expansions in every vertical MMO ever work anyway

>>372989583
Kill everyone who wants to play MMORPGs

>>372990845
GW1 is brilliant but it's not really a MMO due to instanced areas and small group sizes. This allowed the devs to actually balance the game, because they knew players would be x men strong, came from that direction, had these health ranges and so on. The engaging, deep combat wouldn't translate well to openmaps where everyone can barge everywhere.

>>372989583
revive the trinity system, but make it more strategic like how guildwars had it.

see you could only have 8 skills at any given time, there may be 200 skills to choose from, but you could only leave a safe zone with 8, meaning your squad had to be strategically equipped to do certain tasks.

this is better than WoW having 500 skills on your screen.

The next step is to stop with the hotkey bar gameplay, you can have SKILLS, but not all of your combat should revolve around pressing 1-9.

Guildwars 2 would have been more of a mind blowing game if they just made it more action orientated by pressing L and R mouse buttons to attack than spamming 1-5 to get the same affect.

It could have been more in line with vindictus, COULD have.

Right now the only game that does any of the shit i want is BDO

However BDO itself isnt perfect, it just does more than these linear grinding treadmills have ever managed.

however BDO aint a casual linear treadmill and boy does it shit on kids with their baby's first mmo mentality of "grind in a straight line" bullshit gameplay.

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>>372995125
>Korea killed MMOs
only some of them

;_;

>>372995116
Sure. Permanence is a delusion anyways.

>>372995078
>do not have a video
I dont make videos dude. Im literally telling you what to look for. Go to youtube and just type in GW2 high end pvp or anything like that. Or just look up some scepter/warhorn tempest raid dps.
>>372995110
>g 200 hours in Skyrim: 8 Hotkeys Edition
Im not bragging im replying you retarded assertation that is has better combat than gw2. the combat is easily the worst thing about eso and every time iv stopped playing its because it got boring very fast.

I have never even gotten close to being bored with gw2 combat.

>>372995078
Blade & Soul has this a lot with most boss fights. The thing is though, that you don't have to follow some specific distribution of classes for each fight, so it depends on who's tanking and doing what.

If you have an Force Master tanking a lot of bosses you needed to be on point with your deflections and blocks. On the other hand, a blade master had to do very little of that while tanking the same boss, but would have to put in a lot more effort than what a Force Master would on certain other bosses.

Get internet infrastructure up to snuff so we can actually have fast combat mechanisms and don't have to go for 1,5 gcd to balance things for shitter americans with 300 ping

>>372989583
I honestly believe until AI development can become drastically improved the only solution is better sandbox PvP MMOs that focus on player control.

Not shit like Rust, but like EvE. Just with less time grind like EvE.

>>372993397
>ESO
nah ESO at least you can do things like block, light and heavy attack and actually create builds like the original guild wars.

ESO is honestly a better sequel to Guild Wars than GW2.

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MMHO, Massively Monster Hunter Online. Vindictus is still the "best" game, despite being garbage and dead.

Most MMOs have garbage network communications. Results in things like bosses attacking you, you "dodging", then taking damage.

>>372994629
I dont mind not going for trinity but it needs more interaction with other people in some way

City of Heroes was a good example of an alternative take that was not trinity-based

>>372995397
Vindictus is not an MMO

>>372995456
neither was gw1

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>>372989887
/thread

>>372995325
I didn't ask you to send me your video. I asked you to prove your point that gw2 has a higher skill cap the gw1 and the metric I set was precision and timing.

Your response was I don't have proof go look it up yourself. If you know it's true the. There must be proof. If you can't do it then you has to have seen someone else do it. If it's as good as you say someone would have recorded it.

>>372995194
No, I mean that everybody starts from scratch again with massive mechanics changes. So a new player starting to play in the new league would start at the same point as experienced players.

>>372995278
Trinity is cancer. It leads to a perpetual lack of certain classes. It also forces you to group for content.

Blade & Soul handled this in a much better way: a lot of dungeons were essentially soloable if you were good enough with your class and were decently geared. Not all content for all classes, but it depended on the specific dungeons.

Forced trinity just means that specific player skill tends to be a lot less important, because the tank and healer have to be up to par while DPS is mostly just jerking off not having to do anything that important.

Trinity also tends to mean that melee DPS is inherently inferior to ranged DPS.

>>372992940
>little goblin fairy shits
I think that's why I love playing my asura characters sometimes, anon. They're like alien goblins with big ears... the females can look so cute if quality sliderfu is applied to them.

I'm glad there's no sexualized loli race in GW2 or even a standard loli race with cat ears or whatever.

>>372995125
Probably also that it's difficult to innovate with MMOs. You're not selling consoles with MMOs so it's hard to justify putting a lot of money into them to create something unique and new so devs are just forced to rehash old shit with hopefully somewhat of a twist.

And even if someone does put a lot of money in they want it all back through microtransactions so you're back to that.

>>372995487
And?

>>372995385
What if you let players control monsters in boss fights as opposition to players trying to clear them?

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>>372995494

>>372995278
>see you could only have 8 skills at any given time, there may be 200 skills to choose from
Quantity over quality issue there would be literally at least 100+ 'dead' skills no one would ever take

>The next step is to stop with the hotkey bar gameplay, you can have SKILLS, but not all of your combat should revolve around pressing 1-9.
Latency's going to bite you in the arse here, a good chunk of any mmo's population are 3rd worlders on string connections.


The true issue with MMOs now is we're in the uncanny valley where just having a world to 'explore' isn't new or exciting but we don't have the tech yet for truly dynamic persistent worlds.

>>372995603
Thats too simple, and also exploitable, if its just the bosses.

Now if players made up all the monsters and they were locked into play the monsters then it would make more sense. Players v Players v Monsters (as players)

Basically EvE but the NPCs could be controlled by players and those players could only play as NPCs.

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>>372995125
No, players killed mmos
If the market desired more sub mmos whe would have more sub mmos, if the market desired more sandbox we would get more sandbox.

The mmo demographic got hooked into one main title, and then as they grew older stopped having enough time to be dedicated, or didn't care enough to play 8hrs+ a day to remain competitive. The people that kept playing a single title religiously are those who only open the game to socialize and do a little progress, or are stupid enough to not realize the huge bottlenecks and don't really bother to look for any better title.

The market made it so everyone was looking for the next best thing, to start all over again in a new game where they could be the first to the top, and every game had to have a stupid gimmick, like now you can capture pets, or ride your pets, or fly with your pets, or fuck your pets. Eventually every game was unable to deliver enough content to keep people hooked to their game, every title had to hype their shit mechanics and host a bunch of mmo nomads for a few months before their servers became barren. So the only way to survive with a small population of people was to deliver fucking gachas for the casuals and whales, and infinite gear progression with failure rates, so almost no one ever manages to achieve the best gear in the game.

If people didn't support this model, they wouldn't be repeated that often, but people love dropping $500 on a game and being top dog for a month or two, See Revelation Online, that's exactly what happened, people dropped massive amounts of cash on it, and the game is now on life support with not even 2 months after release.

Compannies may be jewish, but it's the players that keep them running the real cancer supporting shit business models and cancerous daily progressions and what not.

>>372989583
Until someone releases an engine that's open source and lets players build their own dungeons/raids/events in the world MMOs will always be dogshit.

>>372995542
>a lot of dungeons were essentially soloable if you were good enough with your class and were decently geared
solo content is not good for mmos

>because the tank and healer have to be up to par while DPS is mostly just jerking off not having to do anything that important.
>My only experience with trinity games are wrath 5mans
The post, if the tank is never in danger of dying to the point where dps can just jerk off its the game not the system at fault.

>Trinity also tends to mean that melee DPS is inherently inferior to ranged DPS.
You mean like everywhere?

>>372995542
GW1 sorta had the trinity and it was great, multiple classes could fill the same roles and the roles could be executed in various ways due to the brilliant skill system
Healing could also be preventing damage, healing could be distributing the damage over the whole group and using aoe heals, tanking could be bodyblocking, straight up facetanking or going for 100% evade, tanking could even be beastmasters or minion masters sending their things first; damage dealing could be a myriad of things

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>>372989887
YOU'VE DONE IT!

>>372995616
>>The true issue with MMOs now is we're in the uncanny valley where just having a world to 'explore' isn't new or exciting but we don't have the tech yet for truly dynamic persistent worlds.
This
Revive them in 50 years when mostof the world has left the internet stone age

>>372995542
roles are good, strict adherence each one's necessity to complete group content is not

>>372995591
So the people ITT who keep shilling for it are missing the entire point of the thread.

>>372995430
holy FUCK I miss CoX's class system

>>372995725
The issue with Revo is that people who were dropping money were getting b& due to a false positive anti-botting system, along with the fact that gold sellers have been hacking people left right and center and bots are still everywhere. Not to mention that there has been no support at all for people until a week ago, where people started getting unbanned. They then blew a ton of money and got banned AGAIN.

P2W was the least of that games issues, but I can't say it's a great feeling to see whales getting what they deserve for supporting horrific business practices.

>>372995456
And?

Its core combat system is still miles above the current top action MMOs, BnS, BDO, TERA, whatever.

>>372995797
>solo content is not good for mmos
Solo content is literally what people spend most of their time doing while playing MMOs.

The problem with multiplayer-focused content is that you spend as much time waiting for other people as you spend on actually playing the game. None of the WoW boss fights were hard. What made Vanilla hard was that you had 40 people and none of the could fuck up. If you have a 1% chance of a person fucking it up then for a group of 40 people you still have a 1 in 3 chance of failure.

If you don't take solo content in an MMO seriously then the MMO will always end up being an utter failure.

>The post, if the tank is never in danger of dying to the point where dps can just jerk off its the game not the system at fault.

The tank can be in danger of dying, but it's not relevant to what the DPS do. That's my point. When you have a forced trinity then everyone only watches out for their role, if another role fucks it up you wipe.

>You mean like everywhere?
This is not true at all. If you don't have a forced trinity then melee "dps" (everybody is dps) are usually the ones that end up tanking. In fact, it's usually the most successful melee dps that ends up doing so.

>>372996131
>spend as much time waiting for other people as you spend on actually playing the game
Maybe in shitty mmos but i spend all day doing group content and i honestly only ever have to wait for que times in wvw once in a blue moon because its full. Evn then the wait is 5 minutes. Fractals and dungeous usually take 5 minutes to find people.

If your game cant do that then its 100% the games fault for designing itself in a way that requires certain roles that people dont want to play and creates extremely long wait times.

>>372995898
Why are roles good? Explain to me why it's a good thing that some character has to specialized towards healing and is essentially helpless when they have to deal damage or draw aggro?

Trinity basically means that all the boss fights are some huge monster you have to fight with a billion hp that you dps for a long ass time. That doesn't sound interesting to me at all. What would be much more interesting is if you would have a ton of waves of different monsters that you would have to deal with. Now you don't necessarily have to specialize into tank/healer/dps roles. Everybody has to somewhat watch out for themselves, but also can bring their unique aspect to the group.

>>372995898
roles create long wait times because most people all want to just be dps.

>>372996278
You're talking about content that you use matchmaking for. Considering how stupid the average player is you'll have a lot of trouble doing content that takes a bit more ability, because you're guaranteed to get some idiots.

When you have players setting up clans and "organizing raids" or "group pvp" then you will definitely spend half your play waiting because of somebody else. Somebody is at the door and so the raid wiped or somebody's internet went out or or or. The bigger you make a group the higher the chance that somebody forces you to wait.

>>372996318
>a ton of waves of different monsters that you would have to deal with
I've never thought about that, but I would totally prefer that over the boss model. It would emphasize individual skill.

>>372989583
>How do we revive the MMO genre?
Make an MMOP, massively multiplayer online porn game. We could do gang-bangs and sheitt.

>>372996016
Yes the situation with that particular title is more complicate than I might have implied, but it still proves my point, it was hyped by some small community, and a fuckton of people tried to get ahead in it by dropping money, so it's not the companny ruining the genre, it's all the players hungry for recognition, for power, for shortcuts, that can't commit to anything and would rather blow a few hundreds than wait a fucking month to get their fucking phoenix stones, imperial coins, or whatever 20 time gated currencies the fucking dev can implement.

I was willing to buy a founder just for the flying cat, but once I played the beta and realized how many fucking shit is gated behind timers, I bailed out, I just kept following on the side and made a few waifus on release to save names.

If someone made a really good mmo, and people supported it, then the rest would start to clone it for sure, but people keep feeding the horrible cash grabs, keep buying outrageous founder bundles, are ok with whatever DLC is thrown at them, with things going like this we have no right to complain can only blame ourselves for supporting this mega shallow titles.

>>372990090
As opposed to right click, shooters ?

>>372996507
>"organizing raids" or "group pvp" then you will definitely spend half your play waiting because of somebody else
I do raids and ranked pvp. We dont spend long waiting for anyone at all and your half assed arguments are retarded.

>>372990637
Blade and Soul. Currently playing it and there's a big update coming that's going to make it easier for newcomers. It's actually pretty fun.

>>372996318
>>372996454
roles are not inherently bad. Having set roles that each class is good at makes for more diversified gameplay between classes. What's detrimental is the necessity for a specific party makeup to complete group content. It should be POSSIBLE to man-mode a dungeon with 8 DPS, but a more diverse party makeup makes things easier.

However, the biggest weakness of role-based class systems is adherence to the trinity, that makes it harder to design content around the ability to complete with any part makeup.
Diversify Healer to Support. Introduce Control classes. Make hybrid classes.

Like, whenever someone says "roles are inherently bad because of queue times," it shows they never played City of Heroes. It had the best class and character development system of ANY MMO I've ever played. Content included both large groups of enemies and traditional bosses, and it worked like a fucking dream because you could take any role you wanted, and still be able to complete content.

>>372996131
>If you don't have a forced trinity then melee "dps" (everybody is dps) are usually the ones that end up tanking.
If you're tanking then you're not melee dps you're the tank. You can't phrase a conversation in terms of a trinity system then bring up examples that don't use it and try and apply it that's only going to confuse the issue.

>If you don't take solo content in an MMO seriously then the MMO will always end up being an utter failure.
WoW

>The tank can be in danger of dying, but it's not relevant to what the DPS do. That's my point.
No this is a separate new point.
Your point was dps are not important because only tanks and heals matter, which I maintain unrebutted is still wrong.

>>372989583
Take out everything the neckbeards and casuals both like and rebuild it from the ground up in a new style that recaptivates everyone again.

i.e. its not going to happen because the triad loving quest NPC style MMO humping neckbeards and facebook game casuals are set in their ways and wont play anything else

>>372996318
Not him, but note that he's distinguishing between "roles" and "strict adherence required for group content".

Having different classes, like healers, tanks and DPS is having roles.

A game that has a strict requirement for roles would have:
>healers that can't dps or handle aggro
>tanks that can't dps or survive without healing
>dps that can't deal with aggro

A good game could potentially have
>healers that can solo bosses just fine, albeit slower than others, because they're the safer option
>tanks that can compete with DPS in damage numbers
>DPS that can survive as well as tanks, but require much more skill to do so, since they're glass cannons

My last hopes are for Bless Online and Maplestory 2

I refuse to be hype again for an MMO until we start getting VR MMOs in the style of .Hack

>>372996714
>make it easier for newcomers
How so?

>>372996786
More slutty outfits, I bet.

>>372989583
1. Take a MUD like batmud or EmpireMUD or something
2. Keep all the complexity
3. Add graphics.
4. You now have the best MMO on the market.

>>372996318
>Trinity basically means that all the boss fights are some huge monster you have to fight with a billion hp that you dps for a long ass time
No anon, that's just bad game design
Refer to Guild Wars once again because it's gamedesign done right. The trinity loosely imapcts all aspects of the game, through the sheer necessity of protecting the guys with lower armour classes and healh pools, who get compensated by being able to do more damage or having more utility, and healers being necessary to fix damage dealt by enemies while also having utility.

It allows for more engaging party-building. If everyone is a jack of all trades, master of none, you just slap 8 people in your group and call it a day. With a system that allows for specialisation, you can get creative, you can build engaging party compositions, it adds depth and replayability.

GW shows that you can have a trinity and still have difficult content all over the place. And not just dufficult due to numbers, but due to both the preparation phase, aka oming up with a good setup for tht specific content in the first place, and the execution, because GW had a rather unique way of handling aggro and such.
You could ruin any system with mirron life dps-check-bosses. GW had barely any of those. What it had was enemy groups that were essentially player groups by themselves, with strong synergies, different roles, different approaches. Some had strong heal and protection and would try to attrition you out, some were full glasscannon, some tried to go for straight for your backline, some would shit debuffs all over your party.

God do i love GW

>>372996781
>.Hack
>there will never ever be another .hack game
>cc2 just keeps pumping out naruto games
WHY
EVEN
LIVE

I just need a mmo where craft/gather is actually important and a class like your traditional warrior/wizard/archer is. Like have them have their own progression, dungeons, raids, roles like everyone else does. Maybe in PvP you can have then gather materials off the field then bring it to your base so you can make health kits/potions for your frontliners. Have bosses that can only be taken down by skillers IE plant boss where everyone needs to come together to either burn it down or poison it. I'm tired of games where everyone can craft/gather and it mean nothing because literally everyone can do it. FFXIV has a fun crafting system but it's not enough.

>>372996318
>ton of waves of different monsters that you would have to deal with
'trash' bosses are a thing that exist and almost universally suck.
The problem with making a boss in an mmo is how do you make someone feel impactful outside of the trinity?
If there are no tanks and healers the boss can't one shot people so it's less of a threat.

>>372996887
JUST LET ME DREAM

>>372989583
I'm a married woman who almost got a divorce to be with a neet because of that game.

>>372996786
Cheaper to upgrade, most of the early mats will be given through the story, straight to level 50 service coming soon.

>>372996968
alright kyoppi keep living in dream land

>>372997006
yo can you not post about me on /v/ you fuckin fag

>>372997006
shoo shitposter shoo

WoW 2 prob

there hasn't been a dev in awhile that has had any original idea for an mmo, all the worlds are basically generic and don't matter because the games never really have the world matter, it's all about quests

and it becomes a problem because a vast majority of stuff is like.. "the last good ____ was in wow" which is a fucking like 13 year old game

some really disappointments out there too, like a lot of WoW was so good because the world/lore got build from the warcraft games, so WoW had great story/depth to it

star wars and lord of the rings in particular were really shitty things to have been so bad

>>372996739
>If you're tanking then you're not melee dps you're the tank. You can't phrase a conversation in terms of a trinity system then bring up examples that don't use it and try and apply it that's only going to confuse the issue.
That's not how it works at all. A melee dps in WoW cannot tank unless they massively outgear the content. They are still a "melee dps" and not "a tank".

I phrased it that way to make you understand it better. It's better if there are no set roles where a person must heal or must tank or must dps, because they are unfit for other aspects. Of course there will be combat situations where one character ends up being back up to another character, but it shouldn't be built into the character's class or skill system.

>WoW

The majority of WoW players spent most of their gameplay time on levelling up while doing solo content.

>Your point was dps are not important because only tanks and heals matter, which I maintain unrebutted is still wrong.

I'm saying the skill of DPS doesn't matter nearly as much as tanks or healers.

If you actually played these games you would notice that healers are the easiest thing ever to play, because nobody would otherwise play healers. Then you get ranged DPS in difficulty, then melee dps and finally the tanks. In a lot of fights the tank has to be the only one aware of all the aspects of the fight, while the ranged dps can mostly stay ignorant, because things are much less likely to threaten them.

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So you take Runescape.

Then you add Wildstars group PVE devs.

Then you add good graphics.

Boom you got the perfect MMO.

For real though, why hasn't anyone gone after Runescapes progression based sandbox crown?
They have their niche by the balls, someone should go after it.

>>372997056
*shouts at you*

>>372990845
>tfw you'll never play Guild wars for the first time again.

Spectating [EviL]
UW/FoW for the first time
First time leaving Lions arch
lvl 20 pre searing gods
Lvl 10 arena.
Getting your ass beat up one side of shiverpeeks and down the other.
Wtf is a 55 monk?

Tfw...

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>>372996565
> massively multiplayer online porn game. We could do gang-bangs and sheitt.
Dude that sounds like a lot of fun. With fully immersive 4k VR just around the corner someone could easily capitalize on this kind of thing.

>>372996767
>A good game could potentially have
>>healers that can solo bosses just fine, albeit slower than others, because they're the safer option
>>tanks that can compete with DPS in damage numbers
>>DPS that can survive as well as tanks, but require much more skill to do so, since they're glass cannons

Yes, and this is just as much cancer. There shouldn't be built in class or skillset based roles, because they lead to very predictable gameplay.

Look at something like Path of Exile on what group content should be like. You don't have one guy that's "the tank" for most fights. Same goes for healing. If you have healing then great, but a player without it offers some other contribution that's also useful.

Content in MMOs needs to be much less predictable in regards to what enemies do. You can't have proper immersion if all the specific enemies fight in the same way. You can't call a dragon smart when they only attack the hardest to kill guy. A smart being would realize that and instantly charge the guy at the back that makes your tank hard to kill.

Another thing you could look at is 3.5 D&D combat. A lot of the times what happened in the fight depended more on the circumstances of how the fight broke out and the positioning rather than what specific roles everybody was. You still had classes there, but there was no "tank" or "dps" difference. Arguably, there was a healer role, but other classes could also fill in for it. Later versions of D&D also addressed this issue, but they made a lot of the other aspects of combat much more like MMOs so that ruined it.

>>372996318
The thing with the trinity, is that it allows the designer to provide hand tailored content. It's very limited, sure, but it provides a buffer in the difficulty design, by designating a role gives the illusion there's a ton going on, and also makes it so constant damage is being applied, thus making the healer role mandatory.

If you have nothing but hybrid demigods who can heal themselves, tank or dodge everything, and blow the enemies themselves, you're going to have very generic content that anyone can clear, otherwise you would have content X class is shit at, and content Y class is shit at, so people are forced to exclude the classes that are shit at certain content, and you end up in a fotm train where top tier classes faceroll everything (warrior in GW2 was like this for months).

Neither solution is perfect, and obiously both have way to work and make it interesting, but in an mmo setting, not having the trinity tends to provide very lazy content, where bosses are giant hp sponges and everyone just dodges some red shit on the floor, or people try to bum rush everything as fast as possible to avoid the actual mechanics from triggering.

Many devs have tried to spice it up, and most of the time it fails. Trinity might be boring if you been playing it for 10 years, but it's solid. What could work imo is a soft trinity, you don't have hard roles, but some classes might have more more support abilities on long cooldowns, and someone fucks up they can blow some skills to help, but they're not walking potions, and some guys may be able to endure more than 1 enemy at a time, but they're not crotch huggers keeping agro 100% of the time. Problem is no one wants to bother designing and testing shit, when you can drop generic boss AI, 10m hp, adds at 60%, he enrages at 20%, if you don't kill him you failed, and if you kill him enjoy killing him once a week for the next 6 months for some token or whatever.

>>372995301
>and Auto Assault
>and Tabula Rasa
Just fuck NCSoft in general, they are a fucking blight.

>>372997345
Tabula Rasa was trash

now killing Exteel, that was the real crime

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>>372989583
don't be like this

>>372997260
????????????

>>372992128
you, i like you

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>>372995125
Korea brought us Lineage 2, so it is objectively incorrect. Everquest dealt mmos a mortal blow and WoW finished them off. Then the mmo culture followed and changed accordingly. People that are attracted to mmo gaming today are not the people that are good for the genre, games made for that audience are singleplayer games with optional multiplayer experience where you never have to actually accept that other people exist in the same world alongside you unless you go out of your way to interact with them. Today only EvE online so far has retained what it takes to be a proper mmo, not a good mmo.

>>372995125
No WoW killed MMOs.
MMOs can only be good if they are sub-based and there was a very short natural window for them to be sub-based. WoW came along and made sure that every developer wasted their efforts making a WoW-clone during the latter part of that window before MMOs that are f2p became more popular and now we're fucked.

>>372997334
so you dont want an mmo you want a diablo clone

>>372997153
>Of course there will be combat situations where one character ends up being back up to another character, but it shouldn't be built into the character's class or skill system.
Here's the problem you're thinking about it backwards, the trinity evolved out of DnD by the players optimised themselves to most efficiently handle everything, the nature of pen and paper RPGs promotes specialisation.
The problem you're always going to run into in an mmo is players play for efficiency not flavor.
Even in your utopian example the top players are going to have a 'dps' who puts all their points in survivability and a 'dps' who puts their's into healing and look we're back where we started.
You can't change human nature.

>Unsubstantiated claims that a certain class is harder or easier to play then another
In my experience how hard a class is to play depends on the class
Feral druids are harder then prot pallies to play, aff locks are harder then frost dks, mistweavers are harder then hunters etc.

>>372989583
I have a question. Why are rpgs the only media where healer is a combat role? No other form of media I know of ever depicts someone who stands around forcing all their friends to constantly regenerate wounds in the middle of combat so why is healing so prevalent in rpgs?

>>372996860
>GW shows that you can have a trinity and still have difficult content all over the place. And not just dufficult due to numbers, but due to both the preparation phase, aka oming up with a good setup for tht specific content in the first place, and the execution, because GW had a rather unique way of handling aggro and such.

>Mindlessly grinding and getting proper gear together is difficult.
>Everybody only needing to do a small part of the fight is difficult.
>If one piece fails then the party wipes because all the roles are "specialized".

>It allows for more engaging party-building. If everyone is a jack of all trades, master of none, you just slap 8 people in your group and call it a day. With a system that allows for specialisation, you can get creative, you can build engaging party compositions, it adds depth and replayability.

Do you know why a game like counterstrike stands in a nice spot above most other FPS games?

Because counterstrike revolves around far more than the FPS aspect of it. It revolves around how the team moves and fights together. How they hold certain angles, set up cross fires and all that. Yet all of them have and can have access to the same weapons. Despite that the gameplay is different almost every single round you play the game.

>God do i love GW

If you love GW so much then why are you in this discussion? Clearly you don't think that MMOs need to be changed.

So, /v/, I recently started playing EQ again after about a decade just to see what it's like today. I have a lot of fond memories of it and I was initially enjoying revisiting it. It was kind of a surprise to see that it still has a somewhat active community.

I ended up getting to level 70+ and my opinion has changed completely. The experience rate is so fucking bad it feels like I'm playing some sort of parody of what an MMO should be. The realization that, if I want to do any worthwhile end game content, I'll have to grind gear for weeks or months is starting to sink in as well.

I've sort of of grown out of grinds and artificial progression checks since the last time I played an MMO. My question is do you think it's possible for an MMO to have any lasting appeal without the grind or is the genre doomed to cater to severe autism?

>>372996786
hopefully adding an OCE server.
Ausfag here and I loved that game but fuck me, the ping was horrendous

>>372997284
>55 monk
Builds like that are why I will always love GW1. The rit version with the damage on hit leech/heal urn was my favorite, never hit anything just watch them kill themselves attacking you.

>>372997639
Probably because cleric was one of the original DND classes

Past that it just kinda spread into stuff like Wizardry->Final Fnatasy 1-> and so on

Now you start to see it even in other genres such as FPS

>>372997639
DnD probably

>>372989583
someone needs to make an MMO that abandons all "lessons" the mmo genre has "learned" throughout the last 20 years.

because the mmo "lessons" were learned by (((Blizzard))) who hasn't cared about anything but cash inflow since 2008.

>>372997519
The market doesn't allow sub games to survive unless they're behind a huge franchise.

I wish they were all sub with 0 microtransactions, but it's 2017, every game has DLC, every game tries to squeeze your fucking wallet out of you, it's very unlikely for the sub model to keep afloat, we're just gonna keep getting freemium titles, and even if those are fair, they're branded as cash grabs, when it's perfectly fine to get hundreds of hours of entertainment for free, and then the game requests from you a moderate fee to keep progressing, but people expect to keep moving forward without spending anything, and if anything is cock blocked the game is not worth playing anymore, because they'll just play the next big mmo that promises they won't cock block content for you and the cash is just for fun and cosmetics.

add more cash shop wings

I think we're lacking solid modern day proper sandbox MMOs, the massive amount of people who enjoy survival games shows a proper modern sandbox MMO could reign supreme.

Something more along the lines of UO, mechanics for "rune" marking, housing, open ended skill system with a limited amount of skill points, balancing out health/stam/mana, stealing mixed in with UO's criminal system etc

>>372997651
anon you literally don't know how combat and party construction in GW1 worked

>>372997652
>I've sort of of grown out of grinds and artificial progression checks
I've run into this too recently. I use to love mmos in my teens but I recently tried to get back into them and immediately felt like I was barely progressing and didn't like it. I wonder if this is just because as a kid I didn't have to worry about schedules and just had a lot of free time in general

>>372997651
>>Mindlessly grinding and getting proper gear together is difficult.
GW caps gear and levels really early, meaning all the meaningful content is done with everyone being at an equal playing ground
>>Everybody only needing to do a small part of the fight is difficult.
Yes, because you can't just go on autopilot and spam your skills from 1 to 8 for th most part, you constantly had to be aware of all the enemies and was going on in the fight
>>If one piece fails then the party wipes because all the roles are "specialized".
Not quite, GW retained enough flexibility that people could ad-hoc for a few moments while the tank was revived or something like that
>If you love GW so much then why are you in this discussion?
because actual MMOs are shit and they could learn a lot from GW

>>372997703
I know your pain. We will never see an oceanic server in an MMO except for wow.

>>372997374
I totally forgot they also killed Exteel. I still enjoyed Tabula Rasa because no one else was doing sci-fi mmos and defending outposts was neat, but yeah it was pretty shitty in general.

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>>372997334
You're arguing at literally nothing.

>3.5 D&D stuff
Okay, neat. That sounds like a game with roles that aren't strictly enforced. I wonder what's the current topic of this reply chain?

I get the impression that you're just posting shit for the sake of posting shit. As though this is your only outlet for human interaction.

>>372997874
>no one else was doing sci-fi mmos
Galaxies was still around then

although I guess it was post-NGE

>>372997338
>If you have nothing but hybrid demigods who can heal themselves, tank or dodge everything, and blow the enemies themselves, you're going to have very generic content that anyone can clear, otherwise you would have content X class is shit at, and content Y class is shit at, so people are forced to exclude the classes that are shit at certain content, and you end up in a fotm train where top tier classes faceroll everything (warrior in GW2 was like this for months).

This is not true. If you have content where everybody needs to watch out for their own shit then you're much less likely to have people who aren't good enough get carried through it.

Content does not have to be generic at all. At least not any more generic than WoW and GW2 already is. Every fight is the tank holding aggro, healers keeping the tank alive and the dps dpsing it down. Sometimes there are interruptions to when you can tank, when you can dps and when you can heal but that's about it at the core of things.

>>372997807
I agree with that. I just don't think a f2p MMO can ever be truly good. Not realistically anyway

>>372997807
Your logic is shit because a game like RS07 is growing and surviving.

The MMO market (and rpg's in general) pay too much on art and not enough on mechanics, and it doesn't even need to be revolutionary mechanics and physics, even simple things would be great.

RUST is a good example that eventually, through time, you can make any game mechanically and visually good for little overhead.

>>372989583
Gamers don't deserve a good mmo anymore. You're all a bunch of asocial lazy whiners

>>372997807
>every game tries to squeeze your fucking wallet out of you
It's getting worse interestingly enough. So developers originally realized DLCs and microtransactions were a gold mine but recently they've found 2 ways to make even more money off it. Limited time offers and gambling. Now games are starting to trend towards putting items behind randomized loot boxes behind cash walls behind time frames and it now gets gamblers, collectors, and impulsive buyers

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>>372989583
>How do we revive the MMO genre?
make them singleplayer

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>>372997295
MMOP would definitely revive the genre.

My only concern is how many males will RP as females?

>>372994672
that was me ;_;

>>372997961
>post-NGE
Yeah, it killed itselfreal good

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EQN would have been legendary if the pitch was true.

Just imagining the buzz around a minecraft esque open world MMO these days is crazy.

Even if it wasn't that good, the thirst for those types of games is enormous.

>>372989583
>Delete every Korean "mmo"
They're microtransaction grindfest shitshows
>Delete any MMO with "action combat" as a tagline
No one is going to autist out to be the best [insert class here] and dodge every boss cleave
>Delete WoW and XIV
Both hold the only places for MMO reign right now. Taking down WoW stops the clone games and taking down XIV stops the shitty cash shop cosmetics and gook devs ignoring any progression in development.

After this we let the genre sit for 2-4 years before they drop another MMO out, preferably one that takes the good from WoW and XIV and adds in it's own flair.

>>372997961
SW universe is space fantasy, not scifi and you know it

>>372998086
I'd be one of them.

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>>372998117
Action Combat can be done right.

Wildstar does it really well, they keep you engaged but still leverage player understanding of systems more than spamming or button combos.

Fuck, if Wildstar actually got the dev time it needed it probably would've been great.

>>372998079
I would love it if they just changed mmos back to singleplayer rpgs.

>>372998126
SWG pre-NGE was reasonably un-fantasy like due to Jedi being hella rare

Destiny and The Division have the right idea.

>>372998098
I didn't even care about the minecraft shit. I was more interested in them improving the standard for mmo AI, where certain enemy types would have different agro patterns. Like assassins would target healers, etc. and where if you killed enough orcs in one area they would stop going to that area.

>>372997849
>I wonder if this is just because as a kid I didn't have to worry about schedules and just had a lot of free time in general

This would have been my guess too but I only started playing because I'm between jobs and it just doesn't feel like a good use of my time even though I've got nothing else to do. Whatever it was about watching numbers go up just doesn't seem to appeal to me anymore.

This thread did remind me of GW though and I always liked that that game respected your time and made all of the worthwhile content relatively accessible while still being challenging as fuck the first few times through. I'd really like to see another game like that.

>>372998264
"Borderlands but with more than 4 players sometimes" is the right idea?

>>372998117
Honestly the MMO genre just needs to start fresh.

don't use WoW, everquest or any otrher derivative mmorpg as a basis, and don't focus on remaking WoW or being the next everquest.

Just focus on making a decent game, even release it in parts, an episodic mmo or an mmo that is released before it's ready (a greenlight mmo)

make the graphics simple, adult and dark and spend the budget on music.

get the community involved in writing lore and basically outsource your universe to your fanbase and their autism will carry it.

rs07-esque content polls and bi-weekly updates.

>>372998264
Yeah, make a games so unfun to play that you kill the entire MMO genre so it's forced to rework itself and rise from the ashes better than ever before.

>>372998316
I don't think I've ever seen so many retarded ideas in one place and I teach elementary school

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>>372998117
>No one is going to autist out and dodge every boss cleave
t. shitter

>>372997652
Most mobile games are slowly nailing the perfect amount of commitment required to keep someone excited about progressing, but not overwhelm them with how long it will take them to be at end game, or done with the game.

It's a weird mix of daily rewards, and daily activities, mixed with a bit of forced pvp for stupid tokens, and enough solo content to keep you busy if you decide to no life in it, but not enough that you feel you're behind everyone else because you don't play a lot.

I have a lot of free time, and even if I can get to max level and grind my brains out, I rarely commit to a game to that point anymore, it's usually not worth it. But I fucking love making characters, I fucking love getting new skills, I fucking love working for hours until I achieve some meaningless goal only to get dissapointed 5 minutes later and make a new goal again.

I feel what's needed is like an incredibly amount of "SIGNIFICANT" content, like most games make you clear 90% of the game and never revisit it, and you're stuck in some end game zone and dungeons/raids but everything bellow the latest content is obsolete and you never do it again. If they made it so even the lvl 20 dungeon was farmable, and you can still rush to end game and get the best gear in a month or two, but leave more options available for those who finished their character and still want to progress somehow. Make it so lvl 40 dungeons scale and hold dark crystals, so when you want to forge dark weapons you have to kills shit in the dark dungeon of skelletons, or if you decide you want some fire knuckles, you need a shit ton of bones from some fire cats in a remote cave filled with elites, just keep all the content being significant, but don't make it mandatory, let people choose what they want to do every day, and let them have like 50 ways to build up their character, if someone wants to max out only 1 build and be done that's fine, if someone wants to build 3 or 5 or 10 sets that's fine.

>>372997410
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_9FFO-9Fc

>>372998189
Wildstar was shit, not because of the action combat primarily. Wildstar just did a horrid graphical style that did not help the fact that it had action combat.

Regardless, name to me one currently running SUB BASED action combat mmo. Not a buy to play, not a free to play with sub option. Hard More: non-gook run

>>372998436
are there even any sub MMOs anymore besides WoW and FFXIV?

>>372998389
>t. shitter
t. TERAfag

Shouldn't you be playing dressup with your Elin right now?

>>372997630
>Here's the problem you're thinking about it backwards, the trinity evolved out of DnD by the players optimised themselves to most efficiently handle everything, the nature of pen and paper RPGs promotes specialisation.
The problem you're always going to run into in an mmo is players play for efficiency not flavor.
Even in your utopian example the top players are going to have a 'dps' who puts all their points in survivability and a 'dps' who puts their's into healing and look we're back where we started.

There was some specialization going on, but generally every character could take hits, every character could deal some damage. Usually characters would also get some ways to replenish health if they didn't have them, eg they would look for potions or scrolls or magic items that would work.

Why was it different? Because you didn't have one guy in a fight that would take 100 times their health in damage throughout the fight. You didn't need to deal damage that exceeded your own health pool by 100 times either.

Have you ever played 3.5 or earlier versions of D&D? Because if you have you'd realize that the amount of things you could run into in D&D varies so much that simple "specializations" will not get you far.

The problem with these MMOs is that all of their actions and character building revolves around the trinity. You take your role and you specialize it as far as you can. In D&D you'd be laughed out of the room when you did that. No amount of healing is going to save you from being squished by a boulder because you didn't have anybody checking for traps. No amount of "a tank shouting at a dragon" is going to stop the dragon from biting down on that guy that had no armor. No amount of dps is going to tell you where the monstrous creature that fled went towards.

You have so many other things that can happen in that game that you need to make up for your party's weaknesses through tools, magic items, followers etc. MMOs lack this.

>>372998476
The Old Republic? I say this because playing free is akin to flaying your own skin off.

>>372992767
This, slaughtering other players is punishable nowadays, even though you theoretically shouldnt be at fault or punished for being better than someone else

>>372997912
>Okay, neat. That sounds like a game with roles that aren't strictly enforced. I wonder what's the current topic of this reply chain?

If you truly believe that 3.5e had these kinds of roles in the actual gameplay then you probably never actually played it or had a shitty DM.

>>372998079
Reminds me of ESO. Bunch of people say they want a "Skyrim/Elder Scrolls MMO" but really what they wanted was another single player game that their friends could also jump in and do quests with.

>>372998571
In which game are you punished for defeating the opponent in a legitimate PvP scenario?

Is Revelatin online any good?

>>372998485
>sits there eating attacks infront of instead of dodging or attacking from behind
>dies
>"Wtf action combat is fucking shit only an autist would dodge."

this is you

>>372998689
It's like BNS but everything is worse except you can carry people.

>>372998709
>sits there 24/7 on NEETbux playing nothing but the same fight for 10 hours to perfect your iframes
>wonders why no one else wants to sit for 10 hours on the same fight perfecting their iframes

I wonder if all the dried sperm on your socks is lowering your IQ or you legit believe people actually want to/have time to devote that much into a game.

>>372998689
No, its dead, it had potential to be good but all the content is timegated to hell and its P2W as fuck, and its run by my.com therefore has no chance on getting better.

>>372993617
>Power creep specifically refers to gear and stats from gear.

Literally why? Because you say so? No, they released newer shit and its OP and renders older shit that SHOULD theoretically scale in use obsolete, that is what power creep is

Tldr the older specs are horizontally progressive things too but the new one is just better because power creep

>>372998689
No. The company handling it is in major hot water right now with chargebacks running rampant after they went on two or three mass banning sprees banning at least 1000 players for no apparent reason

They also dont refund, stay silent when contacted for help, and sometimes you buy things from the cash shop and just never get it

The graphics were shit and it's still pretty buggy and not all in english yet too-game is a shitshow. So bad in fact that the general for it actually died and merged back into the mmo general

>>372998775
great. I remember dropping BnS because it had some bullshit weapon lock system (you couldn't use weapon unless you use an Item) that made me mad.

>>372998514
>>372998610
DnD has roles, it just doesn't adhere to the trinity and strict party makeups

>>372998316
>>372998372
sounds ok to me

>>372997965
It doesn't have to be like that, but if even AAA devs can't deliver challenging and diverse content in a non trinity environment, who is going to deliver it?

I tried almost everything in the market, and it just isn't happening anon, no one bothers to code some actual fun content that keeps you on your toes with your hybrid class system that needs no trinity. People keep stacking classes, keep building the same characters, the class balance is never hand tailored so unoptimized and unotpimized characters have equal chances of success, and if they did then they are delivering generic content that mostly delivers no challenge besides stay out of the lave, or kill the guy before he gets really angry.

And even if someone manages to produce such fun fun content, the actual mmo playerbase would hate it, just like most people hates dying over and over in simple wildstar progression dungeons, not even raids, just simple low level dungeons.

>>372998485
Actually, I'm on the deep end, and even games like TERA, BnS and BDO are mediocre action games. PSO2 is barely decent, but still bad. Monster Hunter is great. Vindictus is currently the best, though ded and run by jews.

>>372998610
I don't know a thing about DnD, true. But quit being autistic about "muh roles".

Here's a healing class that's just as fun to fight with as other classes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS_hFUXSS0M

Fucking MMO autists.

>>372998851
They changed their weapon progression I think. You no longer use the same weapon all the way until the end, you get different ones and have different path options

>>372998804
If it really takes you that long you must be fucking bad

>>372998979
>y-you're bad >:D

Nice comeback, I can really tell all those animes you watch give you good material, time to head back to the capitol in TERA and afk with all other 2 players.

>>372998971
fucking finally, I might replay it, the game itself was really good.

>>372998646
pretty much, yeah.
MMO stuff makes overall game design way too busy to care honestly. You just log in new one, see all the crap what is going on after initial quest and log out to never go back.
While if it was like singleplayer RPG with ability to play with friends for certain quests, that wouldn't happen.
I mean PSO was basically that, here is your hub area, and in world for missions you go with 3 other people, that's it.

>>372998804
>perfecting iframes
>in tera

For classes that can dodge, you have more frames than in DaS3 for fucks sake


Not trying to defend the game but that is hardly the first thing you want to complain about

>>372999050
I'm not even kidding if you can't press a single button when you see a fucking attack coming you've got some next level shitter shit going on here.

F2p should be done like it was done in runescape, where f2p players get their own world with limited content that still justifies spending a long time on, then move on to the real game.

>>372999050
>I-I'm not bad
>It's the games fault that I died

I didn't know DSP posted here.

>>372999169
Yeah but don't forget about the lag on the servers.

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>>372989583
Why bother?

They're terrible games and everyone who plays them is an autistic cunt. There's just no reason to play them over literally any other genre.

>>372999256
>talk shit about someones favorite ERP sim
>defense force rolls out

I thought this was /v/ not /vg/?

>>372999274
Are you Australian or some shit? nobody's ping is high enough to make that big of a difference especially since they got rid of rubberbanding several years ago.

>>372999412
Ausfag here, casuals who cant compensate for lag in Action MMOs need to kill themselves.

>>372999319
>complain about how you're too lazy to dodge
>blame the game for making you have to try at something

I haven't played tera in fuckin' years m8. You're legitimately just bad.

>>372998610
Not that guy, but you have classes that heal, classes that live through a lot of shit either by having a fuckton of HP and armor or by being dodge tanks, and then everyone has several means of dealing damage, but some classes are just better at it. In that way, you can say there are roles.

Then again, there are these things called utility and support that are almost non-existent or pretty much useless in most MMOs. There's a lot of spells, skills and such that are centered around disrupting, buffing/debuffing and changing up the fight, it's amazing. Hell, even the weapon options would be a major change for most MMOs, with every class getting access to both melee and ranged options, and most even having a bunch of spells. Multiclassing would also help variety a lot.

There's also the fact that WoW and its clones don't even let you distribute your points in stats upon level up, which is bullshit.

>>372998372
then you're dumb, this is why you're a teacher and not a game designer.

being surrounded by kids all day must really lower your IQ.

>>372999580
I feel like it does sometimes

boy are they dumb

>>372999274
This is one of the main problems I have with current MMOs. The way they handle network communications makes movement and things like hitbox interactions horrible.

Spoiled by playing single player games and Monster Hunter.

How long will it take until MMO's have dark souls combat?

Also, what kills most MMO's are fly-mounts or shitty flat boring worlds.

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>>372998830
>actually died and merged back into the mmo general

>>372999668
>>372999668
>Also, what kills most MMO's are fly-mounts or shitty flat boring worlds.
holy shit THIS
fucking flying is cool but it really can be poorly done

>>372999668
What kills MMOs is the "massive" part, really restricts what you can do.

These threads make me feel like I'm the only one having fun with almost every MMO on the market. I mean, FFXIV is my main game but whenever a new MMO comes out (Wildstar, Blade and Soul, Black Desert, Archeage, Tera etc.) I usually have a ton of fun with them for 4-5 months. They're not going to be my main game and I know that, but it's always fun to play an MMO with different takes on things. Plus I think the most fun you ever get out of an MMO is right when it launches and everyone is completely fresh.

>>372999668
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8u0CvkFO8g

Dauntless is coming out that will be closer to Monster Hunter.

also, >souls

>>372999805
>Dauntless
ugh

>>372999797
My problem with ffxiv is how cookie cutter the progression is. After you get past the "neat" of each new dungeon every major patch (only takes a couple runs) it just turns into a really boring grind that just feels like the grind you did in the previous patch, but the names of the tomestones/gear/dungeons just swapped.

I hope stormblood changes it up because it's really stagnant right now.

>>372989583
player cities

File: 1485649730750.jpg (172KB, 974x1378px) Image search: [Google]

172KB, 974x1378px

>>372995614
faggit spotted

>>372999874
That's true, but I don't mind it. Also there's lots of side-content that I can do to pass time. I still need to level a few of my crafters and gatherers.

Even so I don't play FFXIV every single day because then I'd only get bored.

I wish MMOs had more interesting races.
So many of them are just different types of humans.
Where are the playable centaurs and shit?

>>372999805
>randomly mash buttons until your opponent dies
this is extremely boring

No instanced content.
Groups required to level.
Bring back crowd control and support classes.
Leveling should take awhile the experience should be based more around leveling than raiding.
PvP with multiple factions. No more of this Red vs. Blue bullshit.
No paid name changes/server transfers. If you fuck up your reputation on your server deal with it or delete your character.

>>372999994
you'd have to make entirely different armor categories for them

>>373000109
So basically everquest 1 on a pvp server?

>>373000109
so basically lineage 2? :^)

>>372999994
>Guild Wars 1 teased playable centaurs and Tengu
>Guild Wars 2 still has not delivered

>>372992128
>>PvP is constantly on
>>On death a player will drop 50% of their gold
>>Loli race
"no"

>>373000109
You literally named Black desert online and we all know how boring it is without instances, literally the only thing to do is grind the same rotation and its shite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79nOoK3zJPA

>>373000042
>randomly mash
And this is pretty much why MMOs don't evolve beyond what they currently are.

MMO players don't want games. They want to pick up loot and show off cute gear.

>>373000228
groups aren't really required to level until post-50 and there aren't control and support classes

I'm currently burned out on FF14, I was thinking of resubbing back to WoW but it looks like a real shitshow this time around, are there any other decently populated mmos out there that are fun?

>>373000261
Vindictus is a lot more fun to watch than it is to play.

It doesn't help that it takes so long to actually get to any interesting fights.

>>372990845
All that shit you just named got nerfed or removed from the game, minion master is shit now.

>>373000228
Oh also absolutely no Koreans.

>>372998421
Shandra was a pinnacle of Tera and the best boss in MMO I ever fought. Everything past that was an utter trash.